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Wednesday, October 31, 2012

OT: NBA thread—November2012

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, but with our own thread, we won’t detract from what the site is really about: um…baseball?

link is to the previous month’s thread. 


oh, and since i can make everyone see this every time they click on this thread, let us discuss the…unique hairstylings of the sixers projected frontcourt:

steagles Posted: October 31, 2012 at 11:05 PM | 894 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nba


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   801. rr Posted: December 01, 2012 at 08:11 PM (#4314214)
I actually doubt I dislike Bryant as much as you probably think I do




The Bryant point was secondary. The point was that we have been down the Simmons/rings/Malone/big and small market road with you many times, and I was pointing out to Moses that I think the thread is "slower" in part because guys in general are staying away from that sort of stuff here at this point, and I think that may not be a bad thing.

   802. nick swisher hygiene Posted: December 01, 2012 at 08:14 PM (#4314218)
well, Henson is 21, the other guys 24 and 25--there's a biggish difference in terms of potential offensive development...
   803. rr Posted: December 01, 2012 at 08:26 PM (#4314224)
I had the Bucks on League Pass last year; I went trendy and switched them out for Minnesota this season.
   804. Into the Void Posted: December 01, 2012 at 08:54 PM (#4314235)
I had the Bucks on League Pass last year; I went trendy and switched them out for Minnesota this season.


I watched part of the Bucks/Timberwolves game last night and the Bucks seemed absolutely joyless, especially Monta Ellis. Not sure if this is because of Scott Skiles, but they just seem miserable out there. Like they were being paid to do a job and there was nothing else in it for them.
   805. Maxwn Posted: December 01, 2012 at 09:08 PM (#4314247)
Really looking forward to this Grizz-Spurs game tonight. If the Grizzlies win, it may be hard to continue to resist the urge to go full STEAGLES® on them.
   806. steagles Posted: December 01, 2012 at 09:12 PM (#4314248)
Really looking forward to this Grizz-Spurs game tonight. If the Grizzlies win, it may be hard to continue to resist the urge to go full STEAGLES® on them.
go for it.

i might get there myself considering the sixers just tipped off in chicago.
   807. rr Posted: December 01, 2012 at 09:42 PM (#4314274)
Really looking forward to this Grizz-Spurs game tonight. If the Grizzlies win, it may be hard to continue to resist the urge to go full STEAGLES® on them.


Popovich is already on board; he rested his guys against the weak and puny Heat to be ready for your guys.
   808. Every Inge Counts Posted: December 01, 2012 at 10:29 PM (#4314292)
   809. Maxwn Posted: December 01, 2012 at 10:42 PM (#4314303)
Damn this is a fun game. Grizzlies by 1 at the half. Duncan might drop 40 if things continue at this rate.
   810. Maxwn Posted: December 01, 2012 at 11:19 PM (#4314319)
Grizzlies by 13 after 3. The Spurs are 2-17 from the 3-pt line so far. Really nobody on the Spurs has been worth a damn in this game except Duncan and Parker. Of course, those two can go a long way.
   811. Maxwn Posted: December 01, 2012 at 11:49 PM (#4314345)
So of course the Spurs bench gets uncorked in the 4th. Tie game, going to OT. These two teams give me a heart attack.
   812. steagles Posted: December 02, 2012 at 12:00 AM (#4314356)
3 things:
1, the last ~10 days, the sixers have been running a 10-man rotation -- holiday, wayns, richardson, young, turner, wright, young, allen, hawes, brown -- but tonight, on the 2nd night of a back-to-back, young was out of the lineup, and brown was a DNP-CD, meaning that the sixers ran an 8-man rotation, with #8 -- maalik wayns -- playing just 9 minutes, and #6 -- spencer hawes -- playing like absolute horseshit.

going back to last year, i thought the biggest tactical mistake that collins made was to tighten the rotation when things started going downhill in mid-february, and it is slightly concerning to me that that card is still in his deck.

2, that waved-off and-1 with ~3 minutes left in the 4th quarter was a killer. if jrue would have made the FT, it's a 1 point game, but instead, jason richardson missed a 3 (where he appeared to be fouled by noah on his shooting hand, but that wasn't getting called in this game at that time), the bulls went back down the floor where hinrich hit a 20' dagger to take their lead to 6. the sixers got to within 1 with ~15 seconds left in the game, but two loose balls got picked up by the bulls and rip hamilton made 3/4 from the FT line and the game ended when the sixers missed their next shot.

3, stats:
thaddeus young: 22 points, 7 rebounds, 4 blocks, 4 steals...BEAST
jruth: 23 and 7 assists
ET: 12, 4, 7 assists, and 3 steals


this is an annoying loss, but the sixers didn't play very well, they weren't coached very well, and they got the #### end of the stick from the refs in a few key spots.

next game is tuesday v. minnesota. hopefully they'll have a better showing.
   813. Maxwn Posted: December 02, 2012 at 12:14 AM (#4314362)
Spurs win by 4 in OT. It did appear that fatigue was a bit of a factor in the 4th and OT, so advantage Popovich on this whole deal I guess.

I do think these are two of the best teams in the league.
   814. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 12:26 AM (#4314367)
Yes, I am sure Popovich enjoyed that one. I would assume that someone like Hollinger checked to see what SA's record in after-tank games has been.

Caught the end on League Pass audio; the Memphis PBP guy was very emotional, and going off on Danny Crawford--yelling right at him--on the air. Elliott Perry, the MEM color guy, was calming the PBP guy down.
   815. ej2557 Posted: December 02, 2012 at 12:29 AM (#4314370)
Caught the end on League Pass audio; the Memphis PBP guy was very emotional, and going off on Danny Crawford--yelling right at him--on the air. Elliott Perry, the MEM color guy, was calming the PBP guy down.

This is a pretty common occurrence.
   816. Maxwn Posted: December 02, 2012 at 12:31 AM (#4314372)
Caught the end on League Pass audio; the Memphis PBP guy was very emotional, and going off on Danny Crawford--yelling right at him--on the air. Elliott Perry, the MEM color guy, was calming the PBP guy down.

Hmm, I was watching the local Memphis TV feed and that is Pete Pranica and Brevin Knight so I didn't catch that part. That must be the radio team, I guess. There were a couple of calls in the OT period that were not great, but #### happens.
   817. Booey Posted: December 02, 2012 at 12:39 AM (#4314376)
The point was that we have been down the Simmons/rings/Malone/big and small market road with you many times,


That's not at all the point I was trying to make, but whatever. Kobe is clearly a sore subject for some people, so I'll let it go.



Condolences to the Majerus family. He was a huge figure in the Utah sports scene obviously, and he will be deeply missed.
   818. andrewberg Posted: December 02, 2012 at 12:40 AM (#4314377)
It is pretty rich that they not only won, but won in OT while the other team ran out of gas.
   819. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 12:41 AM (#4314378)
This is a pretty common occurrence.


Think it depends on the announcers. This is the first time I have heard this guy do it, but I had MEM on LP video last year, so didn't hear them much. He was pissed off about the possession when Bayless threw the ball away late when it was 97-95; he said that it was a 24-second violation and that Crawford, after talking to Lionel Hollins, admitted as much. Elliott Perry agreed but also pointed out that Memphis made a lot of mistakes, and that Randolph had a very bad shooting night. Even in a close one, there are always many things to point to that cause you to lose.
   820. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 12:44 AM (#4314380)
It is pretty rich that they not only won, but won in OT while the other team ran out of gas


Stern didn't set up the fix in time, I guess.
   821. ej2557 Posted: December 02, 2012 at 12:51 AM (#4314384)
Think it depends on the announcers. This is the first time I have heard this guy do it, but I had MEM on LP video last year, so didn't hear them much.

Sorry, I meant with those specific announcers. Your original post made me chuckle. Eric Hasseltine, the Grizzlies radio play-by-play guy, does a decent enough job, but he is kind of a doofus and gets very emotional and complains about the officials pretty often, while Elliot Perry always stays pretty calm.
   822. Maxwn Posted: December 02, 2012 at 12:58 AM (#4314387)
Think it depends on the announcers. This is the first time I have heard this guy do it, but I had MEM on LP video last year, so didn't hear them much. He was pissed off about the possession when Bayless threw the ball away late when it was 97-95; he said that it was a 24-second violation and that Crawford, after talking to Lionel Hollins, admitted as much. Elliott Perry agreed but also pointed out that Memphis made a lot of mistakes, and that Randolph had a very bad shooting night. Even in a close one, there are always many things to point to that cause you to lose.

Yeah, pretty much this is all correct. It was a 24-sec that they didn't call and then Bayless didn't really throw it away. He lobbed a high pass to Rudy but Manu just grabbed Rudy's right arm from behind so it went out of bounds off Gay. But the Grizz couldn't get anything to fall for a long time in the 4th and OT so it happens. You can tell when bigs start to lose their legs a little because they start shorting 15-footers and missing point-blank put-backs.

I should probably note that all the Grizz announcers were a bit edgy towards the refs by this point because they really screwed the opening tip in OT pretty bad. Gasol won the tip and then Manu knocked it away from Randolph in it what was arguably a foul, but more importantly he knocked it out off his own knee. Spurs ball. If I had to guess, that radio guy had probably been working himself into a froth from that point right there.

Which all goes to show that the whole NBA rigs game meme is utterly stupid. If ever there was a game where Stern would put the word out, you'd think it'd be this one, but no such luck for us. Instead, reffing basketball is hard and sometimes it bounces your way and sometimes it doesn't.
   823. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 12:58 AM (#4314388)
Booey, below is what you said, and in the other post, you said that people who focus on "ringzzz" ignore that being on "certain teams" creates an advantage in getting rings--after how many posts about big-market teams, ref fixes, and league favoritism? You have gone off about the 1998 Finals, the 2000 WCF, the 2000 Finals, the 2002 WCF, and other series many times, and have ragged on Simmons' treatment of Karl Malone (with some justification) on several occasions.

So, this one is isn't about Kobe Bryant's being a "sore subject for some people", particularly since I wasn't endorsing Simmons' ranking of him and was just responding to something NJ said about Bryant's longevity.

Like almost everyone who ranks basketball players, Simmons puts a lot of emphasis on RINGZZZ. Kobe's career numbers are definitely impressive, but at this point are they better than Malone's? Garnett's? Barkley's? Robinson's?
   824. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:00 AM (#4314389)
Sorry, I meant with those specific announcers. Your original post made me chuckle. Eric Hasseltine, the Grizzlies radio play-by-play guy, does a decent enough job, but he is kind of a doofus and gets very emotional and complains about the officials pretty often, while Elliot Perry always stays pretty calm.


Hmm. Didn't know that. Hasseltine was OK on PBP on the whole, but kind of lost it there at the end.
   825. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:04 AM (#4314390)
then Bayless didn't really throw it away.


Hmmm. The radio guys missed that IIRC; Perry, when the pass was thrown, said "Nooo" in a very sad voice and while they were pissed about the no-call and other calls, said that Bayless had made a poor play. Guess I need to upgrade to League Pass premium so I don't miss stuff like that.
   826. Maxwn Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:12 AM (#4314393)
Well, don't get me wrong, it was a bit of a gamble of a pass. Bayless might should have held it for a bit on the break, but he got the pass in a position where Rudy could catch it and come down with no one between him and the basket, but Manu came through him pretty hard and grabbed his right arm at the elbow. Rudy lost it out of bounds at that point.

So it was a questionable decision by Bayless, but if Manu hadn't fouled Rudy there it probably would have worked out because he probably would have had to foul him from behind on a layup or dunk attempt or let it go clean.
   827. Maxwn Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:15 AM (#4314396)
They might not have seen all that on replay while they were on the air. In real time it looked a lot more like Bayless forcing a bad lob pass, which was arguably true anyway.

It was definitely not the platonic ideal of a fast break.
   828. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:21 AM (#4314398)
Cuban on Sternly Whiplash's decision to fine the Spurs:

Cuban called the national television contracts "the money train" for the NBA, pointing out that those contracts are the difference in the league being profitable or not "by a long shot."

"We're still a business," said Cuban, whose fine totals from his 13-year ownership tenure are well into seven figures. "Resting the stars for the long haul one game earlier, one game later, sure. Resting when you've got our biggest customer at stake, that's a whole different animal.

"I'm not saying the Mavs wouldn't have done the same thing, but I realize that it'd be a fineable offense. And if it was me, it'd probably be 10 times as much."


   829. Maxwn Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:22 AM (#4314404)
Well now that Cuban's on the record on this, I'm sure that will settle the issue for good.
   830. Booey Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:24 AM (#4314405)
Booey, below is what you said, and in the other post, you said that people who focus on "ringzzz" ignore that being on "certain teams" creates an advantage in getting rings--after how many posts about big-market teams, ref fixes, and league favoritism? You have gone off about the 1998 Finals, the 2000 WCF, the 2000 Finals, the 2002 WCF, and other series many times, and have ragged on Simmons' treatment of Karl Malone (with some justification) on several occasions.


What was that, like 8 or 9 months ago? It was when I first became a regular in this thread. It doesn't mean that every post I've said since has anything to do with that or that I keep wanting to have the same arguments over and over again.

Like almost everyone who ranks basketball players, Simmons puts a lot of emphasis on RINGZZZ. Kobe's career numbers are definitely impressive, but at this point are they better than Malone's? Garnett's? Barkley's? Robinson's?


My opinion on this actually doesn't really have anything to do with Kobe specifically. Yes, I thought it was dumb that Simmons originally had Kobe 15th in TBOB and then jumped him up to 8th when the Lakers won in 2009. Why, cuz he figured out how to win without Shaq or whatever Simmons explanation was? That's lame. As someone who surely watched the Lakers more than I did, do YOU think that Kobe was better in 2009-2010 than he was in 2006-2007 when he was losing in the first round? Or are you like me and think the circumstances changed more than he did? So yeah, it seems silly to me to give someone such a big bump in the rankings just cuz he had better teammates than he did a few years earlier.

And again, this doesn't just apply to Kobe. I thought it was silly that Garnett seemed to jump in every ranking I saw after 2008. He didn't become a better player with the Celts; he had better teammates. He was actually slightly past his prime by the time he got to Boston. So yeah, changing his ranking cuz of his teammates seems dumb to me. YMMV.

That's all I meant by saying that I disagreed with the "count the ringzz" method of ranking players. If the Hornets had kept Kobe rather than trading him to the Lakers, he'd probably have fewer than 5 rings. If Minny had kept Garnett, he probably wouldn't have any. And I don't think either players ranking should have suffered if those things had happened. It's not a dis against either guy. Just against the method many people use to rank them.
   831. Maxwn Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:38 AM (#4314409)
I understand where you are coming from, Booey, but I think you are at least partially wrong. People do overrate the rings thing a bit when ranking players, but it is clear that in the NBA great players have a huge impact on the winning of championships that they don't necessarily have in other sports. Everyone always puts it like you do: that Kobe wouldn't have had as many rings without the teams he played on and Garnett wouldn't have won in Boston without Allen and Pierce. But the converse is also true, those Lakers teams wouldn't have won as much as they did without Kobe and Boston wouldn't have won without Garnett. So definitely the fact that those players were key parts of championship teams should bump their rankings over time.

In particular with Kobe, no he wasn't necessarily better in '09-'10 than he was in '06-'07 but he had definitely had more valuable career by that point because he had added another 3 full seasons at 27 ppg, 25 PER, etc, etc and had been one of the two best players on 3 more Finals teams and 2 champions. So I would be shocked if anyone didn't move him up their rankings by some amount after that.

And with Garnett, he's added another several years as the defensive anchor of a really great team that went to a couple of finals and won one. That all matters, including the playoff success.
   832. Booey Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:50 AM (#4314413)
In particular with Kobe, no he wasn't necessarily better in '09-'10 than he was in '06-'07 but he had definitely had more valuable career by that point because he had added another 3 full seasons at 27 ppg, 25 PER, etc, etc and had been one of the two best players on 3 more Finals teams and 2 champions. So I would be shocked if anyone didn't move him up their rankings by some amount after that.


I'd rank Kobe higher now than I would've in 2008 too, but it's because he's still cranking out superstar caliber seasons every year well into his 30's and has thus added a lot of career value since then. That's a lot more significant in ranking individuals IMO than the fact that his team's management built some better teams around him than they had earlier and he got a few more rings out of it. Again, YMMV.

And with Garnett, he's added another several years as the defensive anchor of a really great team that went to a couple of finals and won one. That all matters, including the playoff success.


I think you've got me wrong WRT Garnett; I don't think he's historically overrated now that he has a ring - I think he was underrated before. The career value he's added since leaving Minny has improved his rank a lot obviously, but again, that would've happened if he hadn't left too. I'd still take 2003 KG that lost in the first round over 2008 KG that won the title any day of the week.
   833. Maxwn Posted: December 02, 2012 at 02:01 AM (#4314416)
I agree with most of that, but I think there's a difference between saying that several other things are more significant than rings, and seemingly discounting the championships totally, which is what you seem to me to be doing. Given the strong connection between the greatest players and not only a championship but multiple championships, I do think each additional ring does and should add a bit to your historical perspective on a player.

There are a few players here and there where the circumstances are such that I would cut them some slack on that score. Pre-Boston Garnett is almost certainly one of them.
   834. Maxwn Posted: December 02, 2012 at 02:03 AM (#4314417)
All of this is just me priming the pump for a Z-Bo HOF push after the Grizzlies win the title this year.
   835. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: December 02, 2012 at 02:34 AM (#4314424)
I think the argument is getting a little distorted. 2003 KG was a better player than 2008 KG, regardless of rings. But the question "is KG good enough to win a ring as the best player on the team" was clarified by 2008 -- before that, we just didn't know. I'm sure if you put 2003 KG on the 2008 Celtics, they win too. The point is just that seeing him surrounded by good players gives us a better understanding of his overall value as a player -- it adds some certainty to the puzzle.
   836. Maxwn Posted: December 02, 2012 at 02:43 AM (#4314425)
835 is essentially something like what I think.
   837. Booey Posted: December 02, 2012 at 02:46 AM (#4314426)
I agree with most of that, but I think there's a difference between saying that several other things are more significant than rings, and seemingly discounting the championships totally, which is what you seem to me to be doing. Given the strong connection between the greatest players and not only a championship but multiple championships, I do think each additional ring does and should add a bit to your historical perspective on a player.


I don't mean to imply that winning rings should have no bearing on a players ranking; just that I think it has too much on many of the rankings I've seen. If a player plays great in the Finals and his team wins the title because of it, of course that should count for a lot. What I don't agree with is when a player plays poorly but his teammates bail him out and he still gets a bump for winning. Or vice versa, when someone plays great but their teammates don't and they lose anyway and they're labeled a choker. I think counting rings is more useful when ranking teams than players, personally. But to each their own.

All of this is just me priming the pump for a Z-Bo HOF push after the Grizzlies win the title this year.


Heh. The Grizz have indeed been a pleasant surprise. I've already got my tickets to see them when they come to town on the 15th (of course, they're welcome to play at least a LITTLE worse than they have been in that game...).
   838. Maxwn Posted: December 02, 2012 at 03:09 AM (#4314430)
Actually, 834 is a joke in more ways than one because the actual best player on the Grizzlies is not Randolph but Marc Gasol and it is by quite a bit. If they turn out to be anything close to as good as they've looked so far it's going to be because Gasol is a lot better than he was even 2 years ago and is a lot better than many people realize.
   839. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 03:33 AM (#4314432)
But the question "is KG good enough to win a ring as the best player on the team" was clarified by 2008 -- before that, we just didn't know.


I agree with the thrust, but I have to disagree here; I think Garnett was obviously a guy who could anchor a champion before he got to Boston. In a sense, Garnett is like Kareem in that the most visible part of his career has overshadowed his actual physical prime.

My "narrative" comment about Simmons' ranking proclivities certainly meant rings, as Maxwn noted. But it also includes some other things. One interesting thing about Bryant's career narrative is that in most cases, one-team slam-dunk HOF guys are widely admired as personalities: Cousy, Russell, Havlicek, Frazier, West, Bird, Johnson, Duncan, Robinson, Stockton. Guys that good who change teams are often disliked, prickly, or at least controversial in some way or become so in part because they changed teams or change teams in part because they are like that: Chamberlain, Robertson, Abdul-Jabbar, Barkley, O'Neal; and in recent years, Garnett, James, and now Howard, whom several people in this thread have said they really have come to dislike. Pierce is an anomaly in this scenario to an extent, perhaps, although he is obviously admired in Boston. Jordan was unique, period, but I also know that a lot of people, like Simmons, simply write off Jordan's time in Washington.

Yet Bryant, of course, is probably the most polarizing star in NBA history--but has played his entire career with one team, and is now in his 17th year. He has been a Laker for his entire adult life and for about half of his whole life. That comes with caveats (he "ran Shaq out of town" the rape allegation was a singular event which triggered a lot of understandable contempt for him) but I think one reason, along with the obvious fact of the two post-Shaq titles, that his image has improved is that he is, after all this time, still scoring the ball for the Lakers, and is still a guy to be reckoned with on the floor. Shaq did win again in Miami, but bounced around from team to team and became sort of a parody of himself; McGrady and Carter's careers wound way, way down. But Bryant is still here, still averaging 25 points a game, still a guy people have strong feelings about, and is still a guy you have to gameplan for.

And, to a guy who sees the game like Simmons does, that kind of thing is a big deal, which is really all I was getting at, when NJ made the point that Bryant isn't the best player, but if he keeps going long enough he could have a better career than some guys who were better at peak than he was. The most obvious example, I think, is Shaq. Shaq was a better player at peak than Bryant was, but who has really had a better career? I think the answer is probably Bryant.
   840. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 03:34 AM (#4314433)
Of course, Bryant may still end his career with another team...
   841. Maxwn Posted: December 02, 2012 at 04:02 AM (#4314437)
As a side note, while this discussion has been going on, I noticed that someone has really done some work on Kobe in BBref's ELO rater. He's currently 276th all time between Tom Gugliotta and Bill Cartwright. It appears to be from his being the all time leader in losses in the head-to-head thing by about 3000. He's second in wins, so his winning percentage is good enough to rank him 24th all time, but I guess however that thing calculates ratings penalizes him pretty hard for all the negative votes. Somehow I have an image of Henry Abbott spending 14 hours a day playing that ELO rating game so he can find Kobe in one and vote him down.
   842. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 04:07 AM (#4314438)
He's currently 276th all time between Tom Gugliotta and Bill Cartwright.


He is doing better there than he is at WoW. They had him 294th among active guys in their preseason player rankings, two spots away from Sasha Pavlovic.
   843. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 02, 2012 at 07:48 AM (#4314449)
Shaq was a better player at peak than Bryant was, but who has really had a better career? I think the answer is probably Bryant.
There's no question Peak Shaq was better than Peak Bryant (I think Peak Shaq may be the greatest center of all time), but the second half of Bryant's career has been stunning. The guy has missed only 24 games over the past six seasons, including three 82-game seasons, while Shaq routinely missed 20, 30 games a year because he wouldn't put in the off-season work to keep the weight off. Shaq's peak was 12, maybe 13 years. Bryant's in Year 15 of sustained greatness. While Shaq went from Miami to Phoenix to Cleveland to Boston, leaving a trail of destruction in his wake as his game melted away, Kobe's been close enough to the top of the league's best to allow the Lakers to continually build contenders around him. That may not necessarily be the type of value we look at when ranking players, but that type of value is vital to organizations.

I think when Bryant goes, he's going to go fast and it's going to be because those legs finally wear out, but I'm not going to be the guy to predict when that's going to be because I thought it was going to be last year, when he averaged 28 points. Dominique hit the wall after 34, as did West and Havlicek and, of course, Jordan. Alex English hit the wall after 35. Oscar Robertson's decline began at 32, as did Clyde Drexler's. All of those guys declined slowly, then at some point went off a cliff or just walked away. Bryant has more mileage on his body than any of these guys. He's right around the age when the handful of comparable players break down. We'll see in the next two seasons whether or not he's special or truly unique.

[Kobe Bryant] is doing better there than he is at WoW. They had him 294th among active guys in their preseason player rankings, two spots away from Sasha Pavlovic.
Well, he's no Ben Wallace.
   844. steagles Posted: December 02, 2012 at 07:50 AM (#4314450)
i know it's way too early to think about this yet, but i am definitely developing a soft spot for victor oladipo, the guard on indiana. he's a great athlete with toughness, who crashes the offensive glass (which is one of the things i am really drawn to in a guard), gets a ton of steals, and finishes in the paint. he's got a terrible jumpshot and he's not very good off the dribble, but still, i'm a fan.
   845. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 02, 2012 at 10:18 AM (#4314482)
a few thoughts on a few dudes:

dion waiters is not a reluctant shooter, is he? averaging 15.5 fga/g (in 32.0 min, while shooting 35.5% from the field) at age 21.

this has gotten some attention, but blatche as 6th man has been a godsend to brooklyn. he's scoring, rebounding, even getting to the line. current per: 23.8

looks like the high ceiling / high risk lotto pick of andre drummond is ahead of schedule in terms of being a good nba pivot.

i thought james johnson was a nice short term pickup for sacramento ... at this rate, he might not even last the season on the roster (after a nice preseason too where he won a starting spot)

there's a few interesting things going on in houston. parsons is playing like a legit starter at the three, asik has kept out of foul trouble and upped his boards (at the expense of blocks), harden - well, we all know w harden (though he needs to watch his turns) and it even looks like they might have something cooking at the four, with patterson playing well (though i'm still bearish on him), greg smith staying efficient in a more significant bench role, and terrance jones having btb monster games in the d-league.

i know nash is gone, but the suns need to get the ball in to gortat more frequently - and play him more in general. maybe then he'll give less counterproductive interviews...

portland's bench... wow. every member of the blazers lineup has been an average to good player this year (lillard-matthews-batum-aldridge-hickson; hickson actually leads them in per, but that's misleading, in large part because of his lack of d) - yet they're only 7-10 as their bench has been sub-lakerian by magnitudes. meyers leonard is the only other guy on that team giving them even replacement level minutes. that said, benches are easier to fix than most things and that lineup is young.
   846. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 12:06 PM (#4314529)
sub-lakerian


I thought of you and Hollinger when Jamison and Meeks went off on Friday; 20/28 from the floor, 54 points between them. Jamison put up a 33/12 against Denver. In the game before that, of course, against Indiana, I think they had one point between them.

D'Antoni, carrying over his view of him from New York, has basically benched Hill and does not play Ebanks, either. Secondary guys need to be able to shoot a little to play for D'Antoni. Hill's PER has held steady at around 15.

I actually mentioned Blatche in preseason as a reason I liked the Nets. OTOH, I was very vocal about the Pacers being #2 in the East.
   847. bob gee Posted: December 02, 2012 at 12:27 PM (#4314535)
der k - the rockets players like pat^2 and parsons have been playing extremely well, asik getting better every game. harden's the best player on the team, but not when he brings the ball up and plays hero ball.

i may be projecting this, thing i like most about lin is he has recognition for the good matchups on his team. when he's against a faster guard, he's not driving, but keeping his player away from the action. he's looking for mismatches and constantly looking to push.

i think (and have thought) the best situation for the rockets is for lin to bring the ball up with a p-n-r option with asik, and parsons / pat^2 just outside the 3 point lines, harden off to the left. if they double lin on the p-n-r and he can't get the ball to asik, he's either got harden for a one-on-one, or a kickout for a three to parsons or pat^2. having harden be the point and spotting up lin for a three as the main recipe isn't as good as the reverse.

the rockets need a real backup at point guard (douglas is awful), and lin gets burned against faster guards in iso situations. the forwards are looking better on defense than expected, and asik has just been a major steal. he's holding on to more of lin's passes for layups/foul shots as well. also wonder why cole aldrich isn't getting some time at center - he looked ok from what i saw? don't want asik to get burned out early.

disclaimer: rooting for lin, have been since before linsanity began.
   848. outl13r Posted: December 02, 2012 at 12:33 PM (#4314538)
robin - I find it amusing that the exact type of discussion that you said you were glad the thread was avoiding, is what you just baited booey into. Mentioning Abbott, BbRef's ELO & WoW is uneccessary hand wringing over Kobe. All the regulars on here knows where Kobe ranks in those terms. We all know the faults of WoW and Abbot.

Be glad Kobe was acquired by the Lakers. You have had the privilage of watching up close and rooting for one of the 5 most physically gifted players of all time. He's aesthically pleasing to watch and his killer instinct / desire to win is second only to Jordan Crawford. Kidding! It's second only to Michael Jordan - who still can't let go of anything [unrelated: Jordan's "For Kobe to say that, it's not one of the smartest things he's ever said..." quote from this summer is one of my favorite quotes ever because it's the perfect representation of what made MJ the GOAT and what would make him an unsufferable person to be around]. I digress...

Kobe's start to this season is nothing short of amazing. Watching him and Tim Duncan play like the clock has been turned back 10 years* has been wonderful. Add in that my favorite player - AK47 -is back in the league, and it's easy to see why the NBA has put had a giant smile on my face this year.

Now can't we get back to talking about what's most important? Where exactly does this years Sixers team rank all time? Are they merely better than the 95-96 Bulls or are they better than the Original Dream Team?

*OK - statistically their starts are more like 06-07 than 02-03, but whatever.
   849. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 02, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4314543)
So...has Deron Williams (#NBARank 10) replaced Melo as the league's most overrated "superstar"?
   850. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:01 PM (#4314550)
robin - I find it amusing that the exact type of discussion that you said you were glad the thread was avoiding, is what you just baited booey into.


I get that Jazz fans need to stick together and all, but I find it "amusing" that you seem to be assuming that Booey can't make his own choices about what he talks about and who he talks to.

Mentioning Abbott, BbRef's ELO & WoW is uneccessary hand wringing over Kobe
.

Maxwn brought up Abbott and ELO. The WoW thing was just a joke, which someone else actually brought up a long time ago. Maybe you are being sarcastic here, of course.

As to "baiting" Booey, this started when NJ made an observation about Bryant's longevity. I responded by saying that people like Simmons who care about narrative rank him pretty high, without endorsing the ranking. Booey then went off on some subjects that he has gone off on before; and in the context of noting that, I acknowledged that I have done the same thing about my own preoccupations many times and that I was actually responding to Moses as much as criticizing Booey. In this particular case, my long post about Bryant actually made a point about his career that I hadn't made before, and it didn't mention Abbott or anything like that.

And, of course, you could have simply talked about Kirilenko and ignored the whole thing but chose not to--due to your own preoccupations.

If you want to talk content, talk content. Going meta is always a choice. Just ask TAFKARA.



   851. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:25 PM (#4314568)
So...has Deron Williams (#NBARank 10) replaced Melo as the league's most overrated "superstar"?

I don't know, but I did see part of the Brooklyn/Miami game last night, and as Windhorst suggested in his story last night, it seems almost impossible at this point that Miami will not be in the Finals again, and I can't really picture anyone in the West beating them, either. SA appears to match up with them the best, with perhaps the Lakers as a "wild card" in that scenario, if they can pick things up. OKC is still very good, but as I said at the time, and as others said, I think the Harden deal moved them further from the title, short-term.

Williams is apparently playing through a wrist injury at the moment.
   852. JuanGone..except1game Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:26 PM (#4314569)
Be glad Kobe was acquired by the Lakers. You have had the privilage of watching up close and rooting for one of the 5 most physically gifted players of all time.


Might be my Lakers fandom but I completely disagree with that, though obviously Kobe would be high on that list. RANKING TIME!!

Most physically gifted players (basis includes gifts comparative to competition):
Lebron
Shaq
Wilt
David Robinson
Kevin Johnson
Chris Webber
Michael Jordan
Dr J
Vince Carter
Shawn Kemp

I don't see how early or Peak Kobe gets on that list.
   853. andrewberg Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4314577)
You kind of have to consider Kareem physically gifted, but in another way. I would probably put D12 on that list, too. There are also probably several guys who never amounted to much who belong on there (Desmond Mason, Darvin Ham, Harold Miner, even Nate Robinson).

I am watching this early Knicks-Suns game and it is impressive how quickly the Suns' defense disintegrates if the Knicks set one decent screen. Apparently nobody cares to switch or run through the screen, or if one guy does, both do. I am also starting to hope that Michael Beasley becomes NBA Buck Showalter and every team he leaves becomes instantly good.
   854. andrewberg Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:39 PM (#4314580)
Sheed's argumentation style (ejected for 2 T's in 1st quarter for SCREAMING "Ball don't lie" at the ref who called him for his first T after the missed FT) reminds me so much of my time as a Philly public school teacher. Of course, Sheed is a product of the Philly public school system. I really wish we had ejections as a classroom management option.
   855. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4314582)
put D12


Olajuwon as well, IMO.

Darvin Ham is coaching in the league IIRC and is well-liked--may be a head coach at some point.

It would also be cool to have a list of the least physically gifted/athletic guys...but the list might, uhh, skew a little white. Rex Chapman was a very good athlete; Kirilenko has some interesting physical gifts as well.

I think I would have Ed Nealy and Mark Madsen on my "least" list, if we do not consider being 6-9 or so a "gift."

If we do...Scott Brooks would be up there.
   856. andrewberg Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4314586)
Eric Montross was not physically gifted.I think Stojko Vrankovic was the least athletic and coordinated player I have seen.
   857. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 02, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4314587)
Williams is apparently playing through a wrist injury at the moment.

Has he been playing through it since the day he was traded to NJ? Somewhat serious question.

EDIT: I hate physical gift rankings. I think it's harder than one would expect to decide exactly what counts as a physical gift. I also think it's complicated by things like how sure Howard can run and jump, but he's also undersized for his position. So do we count that as a "negative gift"?
   858. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 02:00 PM (#4314592)
Eric Montross was not physically gifted


Well, this is obviously just a "fun" thing, not an issue, but Montross was gigantic and strong, which is why he had a career, so in a sense that is a "gift." But yes, he was very awkward for a guy who played at North Carolina and in the NBA.

I don't really remember Vrankovic, but the Showtime Lakers briefly had a guy, Mike Smrek, who could give him a run, I think. It is really too bad that Smrek played before the Shrek movies.

--

Williams says he sprained the wrist against the Clippers a few days ago. He supposedly has a lot of little physical issues and is shooting poorly. Avery Johnson:


"I think he's banged up his elbow and his wrist," Johnson said. "That's not a great recipe for success for a shooter. So I just think it's a matter of him getting extremely confident in his shot, and he's just been nursing a lot of little issues -- wrist, hand, elbow. It's not an excuse; it's just a fact."


Before the season, Williams said he'd probably have to undergo offseason surgery to clean out bone spurs in his left ankle, but took a cortisone shot to ease the pain. Other minor injuries have piled up ever since.

   859. smileyy Posted: December 02, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4314595)
I think the "physically gifted" point about Kobe is about the 17 years of sustained peak performance.

A lot of other guys on that list are physical freaks whose bodies didn't hold up for them.
   860. The District Attorney Posted: December 02, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4314596)
The Basketball Jones discussed least athletic players the other day, and it was refreshingly color-blind. Names mentioned included Andre Miller, Stephen Jackson, Pierce, Chuck Hayes, Z-Bo, Asik, Nick Collison, and Nash. (I certainly wouldn't consider prime Nash a candidate, but I guess maybe now.)

I assume most of the least athletic players legitimately sucked -- Jack Haley, Steve Scheffler, etc. Maybe Khalil El-Amin or something if you want diversity. In terms of guys who were actually good... John Stockton? Some of the bruiser big men, e.g. Charles Oakley? The too-tall-to-get-out-of-their-own-way crew, e.g. Yao or Smits? Many of the fat guys (Oliver Miller, Boris Diaw, etc.) are actually tremendously skilled athletes, they're just fat. Almost everyone pre-Wilt, heh.

David Thompson for most athletic. McDyess before the knee injuries was pretty amazing. Spud Webb, I guess. Westbrook? I agree not Kobe. Jordan before Kobe for sure (not that anyone necessarily disputed that.) I think it's incredibly impressive that Jordan hit .200 at AA ball. Heh, funny that I can't possibly see putting the other baseball crossovers (Danny Ainge, Ryan Minor, Mark Hendrickson, Dave DeBusschere, Chuck Connors... not that I saw those last two guys) on there.
   861. steagles Posted: December 02, 2012 at 02:11 PM (#4314600)
for today's dose of terrible sixers blogging, we see this:

You want to know what it says about you if you’re militantly pro-Oxford comma? Well, first and foremost, that you take the time to develop strong opinions about arbitrary style guidelines, which…I don’t even. But second, that you base those strong opinions on songs by twee Ivy League faux-indie bands whose membership consists of guys who look, sound and write (NOTICE THE LACK OF THE UNNECESSARY SERIAL COMMA) like the kids that everyone pretended to be friends with in middle school because their parents bought them cool stuff in lieu of actually loving them. And failing that, the word “Oxford.”
   862. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: December 02, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4314602)
You kind of have to consider Kareem physically gifted, but in another way. I would probably put D12 on that list, too. There are also probably several guys who never amounted to much who belong on there (Desmond Mason, Darvin Ham, Harold Miner, even Nate Robinson).
I agree. I don't think "physically gifted" matters as much as people think. The NBA is lousy with physically gifted freaks. Who's more physically gifted than Gerald Green? (I mean, besides Lebron.) At the NBA level, it's not about the physical gifts, but emotional toughness, work ethic, basketball smarts, and smaller skills.

The Basketball Jones discussed least athletic players the other day, and it was refreshingly color-blind. Names mentioned included Andre Miller, Stephen Jackson, Pierce, Chuck Hayes, Z-Bo, Asik, Nick Collison, and Nash. (I certainly wouldn't consider prime Nash a candidate, but I guess maybe now.)
Nash is the obvious example. Not big, not fast, can't jump. Remarkable shooter, though, and even in a league where most perimeter players possess some level of ambidexterity, Nash's left hand sets him apart. Couple that with his court vision, and you get a special player.
   863. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4314606)
As people have talked about, there are basketball skills and jock skills. Kobe was pretty jockish in his youth but not all that exceptional by NBA standards, but he has great basketball skills. Pierce may be more athletic than one would think, but his roundness/lack of muscle definition seems odd on a guy who has had such a great career and has been so good for so long. Pierce's huge lower body is an advantage in some ways. Magic Johnson was never a great run-and-jump guy but had phenomenal vision and basketball skills; same with Bird.

It is tricky. Cousy, for example, has massive hands for a guy his size and literally one-in-a-million peripheral vision according to stuff I have read. Jerry West has exceptionally long arms for a guy his height. Those things are gifts, but people usually mean raw run/jump/start/stop athleticism when they talk about "gifts."
   864. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 02, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4314609)
Robinred: Meeks, of course, is one of the only bench moves by la that I praised - I didn't understand why brown buried him. I watched most of that first half by the way... Lawson consistently going under screens made me laugh.

I like athleticism talk, but I don't know what it means either. There's a guy like Haddadi with tons of size and strength - and some coordination, but zero quickness and stamina - he seems more like the mold here than, say, an uncoordinated guy who can run a little at the same height (um - thabeet?).
Asik shouldn't be up for discussion - unathletic guys can't do what he does covering the pnr.

   865. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 02, 2012 at 02:42 PM (#4314611)
Ronnie Brewer just hit his 15th 3 of the year. He needs to go 4 for 33 to match his career high .275 3Pt% from last year. He needs 7 3s to match his career high 3 point total.
   866. The District Attorney Posted: December 02, 2012 at 02:57 PM (#4314615)
Asik shouldn't be up for discussion - unathletic guys can't do what he does covering the pnr.
I agree, and as I recall, the other members of the Jones panel disagreed with the nomination.

The NBA version of Arvydas Sabonis would be another test case of what exactly counts here. Ideally, I would say that if "court vision" means awareness, ability to predict how a play will unfold, etc. in a sports sense, it shouldn't count, but if it literally means superior eyesight, then it should count. Similarly, "length" and hand size -- physical gifts that you can't do anything about -- should count. But since I don't know everyone's eyesight or body proportions, it's easier to base it on running, jumping, and general gracefulness. Ah well, it's all semantics...
   867. JuanGone..except1game Posted: December 02, 2012 at 03:11 PM (#4314621)
Robinred: Meeks, of course, is one of the only bench moves by la that I praised - I didn't understand why brown buried him. I watched most of that first half by the way... Lawson consistently going under screens made me laugh.


I wasn't for the so-early firing, but the Meeks think was ridiculous. D'Antoni is trying to replicate that now with Jordan Hill though. Someone needs to look into whether Hill hit on D'Antoni's wife or something. That is some real bad blood right there. I do however like that Mike D has realized that Jamison has no business at the 3 anymore.
   868. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 02, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4314625)
[867] That's the worst part of D'antoni as a coach. He has somewhat random feuds/issues with guys and will just not play them, many times without warning/explanation.
   869. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 02, 2012 at 03:50 PM (#4314643)
Not in his defense - nor to ignore history, but...: whenever Howard isn't at center, Gasol should be. When Gasol isn't at the four, you either play Jamison or Hill right? So, I can see someone getting squeezed here.
   870. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 05:59 PM (#4314710)
Not in his defense - nor to ignore history, but...: whenever Howard isn't at center, Gasol should be. When Gasol isn't at the four, you either play Jamison or Hill right? So, I can see someone getting squeezed here


The other day, after Jamison blew up against Denver, D'Antoni was asked about maybe benching Pau and starting Jamison. He said "way too soon" and then said "But we need to spread the floor."

My issue there is that while I think it is good to have a system/principles, you also need to be able to adapt. But MD doesn't seem to be--short rotation, shooters get first dibs on PT. Period. Part of the stuff with Pau is on Pau himself and his knees, but MD needs to try to get more out of him, and I think it would be wise to give Hill a little burn to cut Pau's minutes, not overexpose/wear out an ancient Jamison, and to keep Howard fresh, even though D'Antoni apparently dislikes Hill and Hill is not his type of player. Failing that, they might try moving Hill for a player of similar value and salary who fits what D'Antoni wants to do. No idea who that might be.

Kobe is playing 37 MPG right now, and Lakerpeople are concerned about that, but I am really not, since if Kobe wants to play less, he will go to D'Antoni and say, "Play me less."

There have been low-level rumors about the Lakers talking to Pietrus, who AFAIK is unsigned. Since D'Antoni seems to share DK's view of Devin Ebanks, if Pietrus is available, the Lakers should consider it.

So, I like the hire, but I do have some questions about D'Antoni early on.
   871. Maxwn Posted: December 02, 2012 at 06:58 PM (#4314725)
There have been low-level rumors about the Lakers talking to Pietrus, who AFAIK is unsigned.

He signed with Toronto on Friday.
   872. rr Posted: December 02, 2012 at 07:54 PM (#4314745)
He signed with Toronto on Friday


Figures.
   873. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: December 02, 2012 at 08:16 PM (#4314750)
I really wish we had ejections as a classroom management option.


As a current NYC public school teacher, this made me laugh...for a long time. Thanks, Andrew.

   874. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 02, 2012 at 08:31 PM (#4314753)
He signed with Toronto on Friday.
And that night, MP had a chance to bury a former team, Phoenix, because he was left wiiiiiiide-open in the corner again and again...

Six points on 2-for-7 shooting.
   875. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 02, 2012 at 08:32 PM (#4314755)
I agree w playing hill more and pau less (to rest/save him). But, I can understand using a short rotation w this club as well...

Can Kobe be trusted to keep his minutes down, if need be? (Honest question) He seems like a guy who's destructively competitive, if you know what I mean. (Not that he hasn't made it work for him and not that he isn't really smart, basketball-wise.)
   876. CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck Posted: December 02, 2012 at 08:47 PM (#4314760)
Hell, Rasheed once got ejected for looking at a ref. That's some legit ejection game right there.

The video used to be YouTube, but doesn't seem to be right now.
   877. steagles Posted: December 02, 2012 at 09:30 PM (#4314773)
Hell, Rasheed once got ejected for looking at a ref. That's some legit ejection game right there.
the ref wouldn't happen to have been joey crawford, would it? because i seem to remember him ejecting tim duncan from a game for smiling when he was sitting on the bench.
   878. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 02, 2012 at 09:38 PM (#4314778)
   879. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: December 03, 2012 at 01:50 AM (#4314948)
@ESPNChrisPalmer What Kobe is doing is literally unprecedented. Better record he'll be in the MVP drivers seat. Kobe Bryant on pace to be oldest player in NBA history to avg 26 pts, 5 rebs & 5 asts. Kobe needs 2378 points to pass MJ for 3rd on the all-time scoring list. That's 14 ppg over next 2 years. It's late but you guys know I take Kobe over MJ. Regardless of era, Kobe is simply a more skilled player. No disrespect at all to MJ. Kobe gave MJ 33. When he was 19. If Kobe matches MJ's 6 rings and passes every statistical achievement what's the argument? I respect MJ like the next guy but nostalgia doesn't count towards greatest ever. Kobe patterned his game after MJ. Smart move. Improved on greatness. Top 5 Greatest Ever: 1. MJ (for now) 2. Kobe 3. Kareem 4. Magic 5. LeBron
   880. Maxwn Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:10 AM (#4314954)
Holy breathless overexuberance batman.
   881. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 03, 2012 at 08:50 AM (#4315012)
It appears that's a series of tweets, but it reads much better as one manic outburst. I am not familiar with Mr. Palmer's previous work, and the ESPN archive isn't working well since it appears there's an athlete named Chris Palmer that jams it up (even when clicking directly on Mr. Palmer's archive button in one of his articles). Obviously we're all on the same page here, so there's no need to rebut anything there. But does really he not realize, if he's going solely on the total point thing, that Kobe's already played over 100 more games than MJ and still needs to play another 100 at his career average to tie MJ, and what exactly that implies?

---

I was sorry to read about Majerus.

---

this is an annoying loss, but the sixers didn't play very well, they weren't coached very well, and they got the #### end of the stick from the refs in a few key spots.

Despite what either of us would like to think, they're pretty evenly matched average teams right now (Bulls have a better DRtg) that could very well look totally different by the end of the season if their best players come back healthy.

---

i thought james johnson was a nice short term pickup for sacramento ... at this rate, he might not even last the season on the roster (after a nice preseason too where he won a starting spot)

He doesn't seem like a guy that should struggle with the mental and effort side of things, and yet he does at times. I obviously wasn't a fan of the Bulls picking him, but he showed enough spurts that I thought there might be something there. He always looks good playing against the Bulls since they gave him away.

asik has kept out of foul trouble and upped his boards (at the expense of blocks)

I haven't seen a ton of him, but he's really improved his conditioning to play that many minutes. It's disappointing (to me) it's happening in Houston though.
   882. Jimmy P Posted: December 03, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4315287)
that Kobe's already played over 100 more games than MJ and still needs to play another 100 at his career average to tie MJ, and what exactly that implies?

Yeah, that's pretty impressive.

Jordan did have three years of college, though. And while I'm a big proponent of prospects skipping college, the first year or two those guys usually aren't dominant.
   883. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:25 PM (#4315642)
So Rip Hamilton actually tore his Plantar Fascia during Saturday's game (and came back in to play and hit the clinching FTs), which BTW, sounds oh so pailful. The timetable for his return is unknown, but Thibs likes not answering questions ("Could be one week, could be two, could be more"). So the Bulls are rumored to be after Mo Evans (KC Johnson tweeted about Marco Jaric, who was with them in camp). Either way, time to schedule the parade.

---

Steve Blake has a torn ab muscle, needs surgery, and will be out 6-8 weeks. That also sounds painful.
   884. rr Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:41 PM (#4315662)
Steve Blake Rip Hamilton


It's tough getting old, as Lakers fans are seeing.

Ups to Orlando for taking it to the Lakers and getting the job done. I am sure their fans enjoyed it and understandably so.
   885. Booey Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:42 PM (#4315663)
Have they given any kind of estimate yet WRT Rose's return?
   886. Moses Taylor World Re-Tour 2.0: Warszawa Posted: December 03, 2012 at 05:59 PM (#4315682)
Have they given any kind of estimate yet WRT Rose's return?

Nope. Not a peep. Last update was that he was cutting (and the update before that was that he wasn't cutting yet).
   887. Conor Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:01 PM (#4315688)
Sheed's argumentation style (ejected for 2 T's in 1st quarter for SCREAMING "Ball don't lie" at the ref who called him for his first T after the missed FT)


is that definitely what he said? I was at the game with my Dad yesterday and as soon as the FT missed I looked to Sheed to see what he would do, and I saw him bellow something. i would've pretty much bet every dollar in my pocket that's what he said; good to know he didn't let me down.


I also considered he may have had a rough night the night before and wasn't interested in sticking around for long
   888. Jimmy P Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:04 PM (#4315691)
Rasheed Wallace was actually ejected for yelling "Ball Don't Lie" after a missed free throw...that was awarded because of a T on Rasheed.

I love having Sheed back in the NBA. He needs to coach when he's done playing.
   889. Booey Posted: December 03, 2012 at 06:26 PM (#4315723)
I love having Sheed back in the NBA. He needs to coach when he's done playing.


Only if Iverson gets to be his assistant coach in charge of overseeing practice...
   890. puck Posted: December 03, 2012 at 07:08 PM (#4315773)
Article on playing against Ricky Rubio, by Flinder Boyd, a Dartmouth player and former England Nat. Apologies if this has been posted already.
   891. rr Posted: December 03, 2012 at 07:29 PM (#4315800)
Flinder Boyd

That would be quite Dickensian with a longer last name.
   892. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 03, 2012 at 08:18 PM (#4315855)
I love having Sheed back in the NBA. He needs to coach when he's done playing.


I was talking about this last night. I think he'd be best utilized as a sideline reporter for the TNT crew.
   893. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: December 03, 2012 at 09:45 PM (#4315936)
I don't think the Boyd bit had been. Anyway, I enjoyed it.
   894. Athletic Supporter can feel the slow rot Posted: December 04, 2012 at 12:49 AM (#4316108)
New thread is up.
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