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Friday, October 05, 2018

OT - NBA Thread (2018-19 season kickoff edition)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom knew the old thread would get closed, thus detracting from what this site is really about: the baseball playoffs, maybe?

Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 05, 2018 at 03:43 PM | 3782 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   2101. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: November 12, 2018 at 05:20 PM (#5786218)
lamar odom
grant hill
blake griffin
hedo turkoglu
magic johnson
scottie pippen
boris diaw
josh smith
jalen rose
luke walton
gordon haywurst
andrei kirilenko
josh mcboberts


Most of those players weren't lead ballhandlers, though—they were good secondary ballhandlers. Magic wasn't hyperathletic. Grant Hill, Jalen Rose, and Giancarlo Humbert are the size of tallish wings, not big men. Diaw was hyperathletic and big-man-sized, but never at the same time.

(reposting for the flip)
   2102. JC in DC Posted: November 12, 2018 at 05:24 PM (#5786223)
I'm not sure I get the point. Giannis is "hyperathletic." I don't think Simmons is, and I think in fact STIGGLES makes a good comp of him to Odom. The game has changed to make him a "primary ballhandler," and I imagine Odom would've been in today's game as well. My point, anyway, is that I see them as very different players and, in terms of impact, Giannis is at the very top of the NBA whereas Simmons is not (yet).
   2103. spivey Posted: November 12, 2018 at 05:26 PM (#5786225)
Most of those players weren't lead ballhandlers, though—they were good secondary ballhandlers. Magic wasn't hyperathletic. Grant Hill, Jalen Rose, and Giancarlo Humbert are the size of tallish wings, not big men. Diaw was hyperathletic and big-man-sized, but never at the same time.

(reposting for the flip)


Also, most of those guys - especially the ones that you would want Simmons to be - are way better shooters than Simmons ever was.

I will say based on the outside shooting stats that NJ posted on Giannis and Simmons, the real difference between the two besides volume is at the free throw line and from 3. But Giannis is so bad outside the paint that while he takes some of those shots, you really don't want him doing it almost at all. Giannis is significantly longer (7'3" wing span vs 7'0") and just seems more athletic - playing above the rim more, etc. Giannis has managed to score an elite number of points per game despite his poor shooting. Development isn't consistent or linear, but Simmons is significantly better than Giannis was in his second season (though Giannis was probably better in his age 22 season than Simmons is right now).
   2104. JJ1986 Posted: November 12, 2018 at 05:27 PM (#5786226)
I think Odom and Kirilenko are the closest and they were both complementary players, not the lead guy.
   2105. Fourth True Outcome Posted: November 12, 2018 at 05:33 PM (#5786231)
Historical comps for either of those dudes are going to be tricky for the reason JC brings up. Giannis would be a ferocious rim protector/roll man, but he wouldn't be an MVP candidate without the ball in his hands as much as it is. Who knows what a primary ballhandler Lamar Odom would have been.
   2106. aberg Posted: November 12, 2018 at 05:34 PM (#5786232)
Not a perfect way to measure, but there have been 19 player seasons in which a 6'9+ player averaged 7+ APG. Magic (12x), Bird (3x), Wilt (2x), Simmons (2x).

Even if you lower the threshold to 6, you don't add that many more seasons (30 total). KG, Jokic, Schrempf, Durant... Giannis is a shade under 6 so far this year.

If you tailor the list in a way to get them both on it (6'10+, 5.5+ APG), it's 14 seasons. Wilt, KG, Russell, Jokic, Odom, Simmons, Sam Lacey, Blake, Giannis.
   2107. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 12, 2018 at 05:34 PM (#5786233)
I don't think Bagley is bad either.
   2108. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: November 12, 2018 at 05:38 PM (#5786234)
Simmons doesn't have the raw power and freakish athleticism to bulldoze his way to the hoop right through three defenders even though they always sag off him and let him have anything he wants from beyond 15 feet, the way Giannis does. No one has that combination of power and athleticism, except LeBron, who is two or three inches shorter. It's a pretty big deal.

Teams are always just going to back way off Simmons and aggressively foul him anytime he tries to drive through the crowd, and it certainly is going to hamper his offensive impact. But he's still a star--it sounds weird for a guy whose calling card is his passing, but with his burst and high IQ, Simmons is and will be a great off-ball mover and cutter, and has DPOY potential too. I think he might actually make a great compliment to Butler, with Butler being the primary ball handler. But the other two guys need to be deadly on the catch-and-shoot three. Not one of them; both of them. Wilson Chandler isn't going to cut it.

My big worry with Simmons is that one serious leg injury will effectively end his career. Whether by injury or age, as soon as Simmons loses a step, he's finished. That's hopefully still a long ways off yet, but I doubt he will be a useful player past 30, and it will be something to think about when the time for his next megamax extension comes around.
   2109. aberg Posted: November 12, 2018 at 06:01 PM (#5786245)
ISTM that Simmons could survive as a slow point forward even if he never becomes a good shooter.
   2110. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: November 12, 2018 at 06:33 PM (#5786255)
I'm not sure if I think Simmons doubters are underrating his skill level or underrating the extra margin of error being 6'10" gives you. In any case, my original question,
How much improvement would Ben Simmons need to get his jumper on par with Giannis?
was not intended as a wholistic comparison of the two. I think comparisons are stupid, generally: the more interesting question is how much Simmons needs to improve his jumper to be comparably effective on offense. Giannis is an illustrative example, being another huge super-athlete who handles a lot of point-guard-type duties for his team. He is bigger and more athletic than Simmons; intuitively, Simmons would need a better jumper to reach the same level. Would "mediocre" be enough improvement to get him there, given his preexisting skill and physical advantages, or would he have to get all the way up to "average"? This is at least plausibly susceptible to quantitative analysis, though I don't have the statistical chops to actually produce any estimates.

I also think that there are more interesting problems with the comparison, especially in light of how Giannis is showing out on a retooled Bucks roster. Personally, I find the differences in roster construction/player context (e.g. would the Sixers be better off with Middleton instead of Butler, even though Butler is a better individual player? I would argue yes) provides a more interesting set of unverifiable opinions to poke at than "what other player comparisons don't have the specific problems I raise with this one".
   2111. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:09 PM (#5786309)
do you know what's really disappointing?

that neither covington nor saric chose to wear #76 in MIN, because that would have been hilarious.
   2112. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:28 PM (#5786317)
This Pelicans/Toronto game is pretty entertaining so far. Holy wow, Anthony Davis is magic.
   2113. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:28 PM (#5786318)
Turns out no one has ever worn #76 except for Shawn Bradley when he was in Philly. That doesn't exactly bode well for future adoption.
   2114. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:36 PM (#5786322)
   2115. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:38 PM (#5786324)
what are the hell
   2116. PJ Martinez Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:39 PM (#5786325)
2114: I think they need to trade Fultz for his own good. I doubt Jimmy Butler is going to be a positive influence there.
   2117. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:43 PM (#5786328)
This...is uncomfortable to watch.
drawing lane violations is a very clever way to raise your FT percentage.
   2118. . . . . . . Posted: November 12, 2018 at 08:56 PM (#5786338)
I don’t think the yips are funny and I don’t think trading Fultz will cure them. It’s a likely career-ending neurological injury and that sucks.
   2119. PJ Martinez Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:08 PM (#5786344)
Do we take this, from a HoopsHype writer, at face value, or do people think that Hanlen could be throwing Fultz under the bus here? (I don't know much about Hanlen; don't have an opinion.)
Markelle Fultz and Drew Hanlen are no longer working together or on speaking terms, according to league sources. No word on why the two parted ways, but their relationship deteriorated about three weeks ago. Prior to this falling out, Fultz spent the summer training with Hanlen.
   2120. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:09 PM (#5786345)
@AlexKennedyNBA
Markelle Fultz and Drew Hanlen are no longer working together or on speaking terms, according to league sources. No word on why the two parted ways, but their relationship deteriorated about three weeks ago. Prior to this falling out, Fultz spent the summer training with Hanlen.
   2121. Avoid Running At All Times- S. Paige Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:15 PM (#5786349)
This has probably been discussed before here but have there been other cases of the yips in the NBA before?
   2122. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:19 PM (#5786351)
This has probably been discussed before here but have there been other cases of the yips in the NBA before?
nick anderson.
   2123. JC in DC Posted: November 12, 2018 at 09:50 PM (#5786362)
How often do athletes overcome the yips? I'm guessing not often. I feel for Fultz. I do hope he overcomes this, but I think it's unlikely.
   2124. spivey Posted: November 12, 2018 at 10:01 PM (#5786363)
Fultz salary next year is like $10-11 million. He’s not worth that. I thought there was a chance they just wouldn’t pick it up, but I guess there was and is too much year left.

I pray to god he’s funneling this money away.
   2125. tshipman Posted: November 12, 2018 at 10:03 PM (#5786364)
I think Fultz is one of the first guys I can think of who really might have ruined their career by coming out too early. I think he probably doesn't have these issues if he's a junior at Washington.

I hope he made some wise investments.
   2126. JC in DC Posted: November 12, 2018 at 10:10 PM (#5786365)
Hard to know. Like I said, I was surprised when he became a #1 prospect given what I had seen here in DC. He was a super athlete, but not a game-changing guy. He wasn't a big shot guy (now maybe we know why), and didn't have a reputation either for shooting or for heart. Again, repeating myself from months ago, Lykes was so much more dynamic but oh so wee. I worried that whoever picked Fultz was getting a guy whose reputation as a shooter was built on a small sample size (~100 or so shots taken). But the gamble was on that athleticism and a trend upward, perhaps. I do hope he shoots his way out of it. I'm not sure Philly can afford to be patient with him.
   2127. JC in DC Posted: November 12, 2018 at 10:17 PM (#5786367)
Are there any conclusions to draw from OKC's success sans Westbrook?
   2128. GregD Posted: November 12, 2018 at 10:18 PM (#5786368)
Fultz salary next year is like $10-11 million. He’s not worth that. I thought there was a chance they just wouldn’t pick it up, but I guess there was and is too much year left.

I pray to god he’s funneling this money away.
basketball-ref says $9.7 million next year and $12.28 million the year after
   2129. JC in DC Posted: November 12, 2018 at 10:22 PM (#5786369)
What is the overhead of being a professional athlete? IOW: what percentage of that does he take home after taxes, agent, handler (?), etc? Does he walk away with 50%, 55%? Less?
   2130. Master of the Horse Posted: November 12, 2018 at 10:29 PM (#5786371)
2129: I can speak to that to a degree. State dependent because of income tax and other taxes. Also how club structures deal. But a lot of pro athletes are worse off than typical taxpayer because everyone has hand in their pocket. Really sucks
   2131. Master of the Horse Posted: November 12, 2018 at 10:31 PM (#5786372)
And not to totally stroke this place but nba talk here pretty solid. Much appreciated
   2132. . . . . . . Posted: November 12, 2018 at 10:45 PM (#5786376)
https://www.dystonia-foundation.org/what-is-dystonia/forms-of-dystonia/musicians-dystonias/focal-hand-dystonia

I’m not sure staying in college would’ve helped. I think it’s just lighting-bolt bad luck.
   2133. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: November 12, 2018 at 10:52 PM (#5786378)
Yeah, I mean, the flip side is that if this had happened as a junior at UW, all of a sudden he has no money.

Rick Ankiel got over the yips, in a sense. I guess the equivalent to that is Fultz growing 6 inches, becoming a terror defensively around the rim, and not seeing the ball much on offense. He might already be better in that role than Bismack Biyombo, so that's a start.
   2134. . . . . . . Posted: November 12, 2018 at 10:57 PM (#5786380)
Even Ankiel has said in recent interviews that he feels them when he gets on a mound now, more than a decade later. It is really really hard to beat the yips, no matter how tough and determined you are.
   2135. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 12, 2018 at 11:51 PM (#5786391)
@PompeyOnSixers
#Sixers G Markelle Fultz said the ball slipped out of his hand on his foul shots.


fwiw, if you look at the video again, focus on the ref at the top right of the screen, and the heat player closest to him. it kindalooks like the ref does something with his whistle, then stomps his feet behind fultz while fultz is starting his FT motion.
   2136. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: November 13, 2018 at 12:39 AM (#5786394)
Do I like only catch Montrezl Harrell on his career nights, or is he just an awesome player unfairly serving as a backup? The guy is a damn BEAST!
   2137. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: November 13, 2018 at 12:55 AM (#5786395)
re 2135:

@AvikarSaini
My guess is that Fultz suffered an injury to his Long Thoracic Nerve. It innervates the Serratsu Anterior (side of chest) which functions in 2 main ways: 1) Raising the arm >100 degrees and 2) Holding the scapula in place
   2138. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 13, 2018 at 01:19 AM (#5786400)
Do I like only catch Montrezl Harrell on his career nights, or is he just an awesome player unfairly serving as a backup? The guy is a damn BEAST!
so far this season, harrell is averaging 22 and 10 per 36 minutes on 68% shooting, with a 25 PER and a +7 BPM.

so yeah, it's probably just you.
   2139. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 13, 2018 at 01:42 AM (#5786403)
player A: 19 PTS, 3 REB, 5 AST (per 36), 45/42/71
player B: 14 PTS, 6 REB, 5 AST (per 36), 42/31/60
player C: 21 PTS, 5 REB, 8 AST (per 36), 49/41/69
player D: 12 PTS, 7 REB, 7 AST (per 36), 41/36/62
player E: 23 PTS, 3 REB, 5 AST (per 36), 43/31/80
player F: 10 PTS, 3 REB, 5 AST (per 36), 35/29/92
player G: 20 PTS, 3 REB, 4 AST (per 36), 38/33/88

stats are from this season (not including tonight).
highs and lows are in bold.
all 7 players were drafted in last year's lottery.
   2140. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: November 13, 2018 at 02:03 AM (#5786405)
I saw it mentioned in the wake of LeVert's brutal injury (a major bummer) that Derrick Rose was on the court for that injury as well as Paul George and Gabfest Haymaker's gruesome leg injuries (and of course his own ACL injury). What a... weird coincidence.
   2141. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 13, 2018 at 02:14 AM (#5786406)
   2142. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:15 AM (#5786424)
I don't think Bagley is bad either.


If anything, the concerns about Bagley were that he was an unpolished, raw athlete (the guy was a pogo stick at Duke last year). I've never heard any concerns about his conditioning until the last page of comments.
   2143. jmurph Posted: November 13, 2018 at 10:33 AM (#5786477)
Is it actually even a known thing that Fultz was ever really injured? Is that a certainty?
   2144. jmurph Posted: November 13, 2018 at 10:45 AM (#5786486)
the more interesting question is how much Simmons needs to improve his jumper to be comparably effective on offense.

With the caveats that he was a rookie and Boston was the best defense in the league last year, Simmons was terrible in the Celtics series. We talk about him sometimes like he's just a normal bad shooter, like early Rondo or something, but 87.9% of his shots are inside of 10 feet this year, 55.8 inside of 3. Eyeballing it, Rondo's highest inside of 10 looks to be just under 70%. I think a ball dominant guy who isn't even a credible threat to take a long 2 is something different entirely.

So I think the answer to that question is: a lot. But Giannis is also an extremely high standard, so I'm not sure what that tells us.
   2145. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 11:01 AM (#5786498)
We talk about him sometimes like he's just a normal bad shooter, like early Rondo or something, but 87.9% of his shots are inside of 10 feet this year, 55.8 inside of 3. Eyeballing it, Rondo's highest inside of 10 looks to be just under 70%. I think a ball dominant guy who isn't even a credible threat to take a long 2 is something different entirely.

My thoughts exactly. Kudos to him for taking a jumper last night, shocked the hell out of me.
   2146. The Good Face Posted: November 13, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5786527)
If anything, the concerns about Bagley were that he was an unpolished, raw athlete (the guy was a pogo stick at Duke last year). I've never heard any concerns about his conditioning until the last page of comments.


Bagley's 3p shooting was questioned and people wondered whether he could learn how to defend, but he wasn't fat or out of shape, and he showed a fine motor at Duke. He needs to add muscle, but pretty much every 1 and done guy needs that other than freaks like Zion.
   2147. aberg Posted: November 13, 2018 at 12:07 PM (#5786566)
In the first game post-Jimmy, KAT had 25 points, 20 rebounds, and 10 TOs. I wanted him to take 40 shots, but that's kind of the same thing. Aggressiveness to a fault. I don't mind the turnovers, especially since it led to a win.
   2148. jmurph Posted: November 13, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5786612)
Wow, good news for LeVert. "Just" a dislocation, he'll be back this season.
   2149. aberg Posted: November 13, 2018 at 01:18 PM (#5786628)
Are there any medical type people who can explain what a dislocated foot is? Can you dislocate body parts that aren't joints?
   2150. Fourth True Outcome Posted: November 13, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5786631)
I would assume that means a dislocated ankle? I have aggressively avoided watching the video, however, so if that doesn't match the injury ignore me.
   2151. aberg Posted: November 13, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5786642)
I was watching it live. Couldn't figure out at first why it was taking him so long to get up because there wasn't any clear collision or a hard fall. On the replay, I was watching his head to see if there was whiplash, and then I noticed his foot pointing 90 deg inward from his leg. IT. WAS. GROSS.

Really unlucky timing, too. It was about 3 secs before halftime during a disorganized sprint up the court to try to get a layup off before the buzzer. Tyus Jones was the closest player and you could see him sobbing into a towel on the bench while the trainers tried to help Levert.
   2152. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: November 13, 2018 at 01:44 PM (#5786647)
I am very happy that a) I went to bed before the accident happened and that b) LeVert is seemingly going to be OK.
   2153. Rally Posted: November 13, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5786719)
I’m not sure staying in college would’ve helped. I think it’s just lighting-bolt bad luck.


Yeah, nobody has any idea why this happened to Fultz, so we have no idea if it would not have happened in a different environment. It's possible that his path was the absolute best for his career earnings - be the #1 pick, pocket a few multimillion dollar paychecks before everyone gives up on him. If he was shooting like this as a college junior he's not getting drafted. At least not first round, I guess somebody might take him on as a 2nd round project.
   2154. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 13, 2018 at 04:12 PM (#5786804)
trade machine: who says no?

BOS: markelle fultz, wilson chandler, mike muscala
PHI: jgordon haywurtzlbacher, daniel theiss
   2155. tshipman Posted: November 13, 2018 at 04:18 PM (#5786809)
2154:

hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
   2156. Fourth True Outcome Posted: November 13, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5786821)
Any time you can flip a cheap big man and a versatile wing for a busted zero guard to slot in behind Kyrie/Rozier/Smart in Boston's guard rotation and pieces you gotta do it!
   2157. jmurph Posted: November 13, 2018 at 04:36 PM (#5786825)
Right I don't think Hayward is broken, but who knows, maybe he is. Either way, any realistic scenario in which Boston is a title contender this year probably involves Hayward being good and on the team.
   2158. Rally Posted: November 13, 2018 at 04:42 PM (#5786829)
Bizarro world NBA: Joel Embiid is leading the league in minutes played.
   2159. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: November 13, 2018 at 04:48 PM (#5786836)
Matt Velazquez @Matt_Velazquez 2h2 hours ago

I asked Brook Lopez how he feels about the nickname “Splash Mountain.” He says he’s actually partial to it. He’s an unabashed Disney geek of towering stature, so it certainly fits.
   2160. jmurph Posted: November 13, 2018 at 04:52 PM (#5786839)
That's a tremendous nickname.
   2161. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 05:19 PM (#5786862)
That's a tremendous nickname.

Seconded.

Bizarro world NBA: Joel Embiid is leading the league in minutes played.

Recently realized I've finally reached the point where I can watch him without reflexively wincing at every stumble/fall.
   2162. spivey Posted: November 13, 2018 at 05:43 PM (#5786878)
Right I don't think Hayward is broken, but who knows, maybe he is. Either way, any realistic scenario in which Boston is a title contender this year probably involves Hayward being good and on the team.


The contract looks pretty ugly right now, but they wouldn't take this risk with one of their big rivals on a pure salary dump. They can probably salary dump him this offseason if they really want to.
   2163. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: November 13, 2018 at 05:51 PM (#5786886)
I have no idea how it's medically possible to dislocate your ankle as badly as Caris Lavert did and not do any soft tissue damage but apparently that's the case. He won't need surgery, they popped it back in last night, and he probably will return in early spring.

Wow, what awesome news for an awesome guy and a blossoming star.
   2164. tshipman Posted: November 13, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5786887)
The contract looks pretty ugly right now, but they wouldn't take this risk with one of their big rivals on a pure salary dump. They can probably salary dump him this offseason if they really want to.


If Boston wants to get off Hayward's money, I'm pretty sure that they can give him to the Kings for nothing. I don't think his contract requires an asset, while Wilson Chandler and Markelle Fultz's contracts might. (Fultz is really, really hard to tell about right now.)
   2165. maccoach57 Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:04 PM (#5786892)
Way too early to be writing off Gofish Horcat or to be thinking about trades.
   2166. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:12 PM (#5786899)
Looks like Dray’ll sit tonight v ATL over the squabble he had w Durant...
   2167. aberg Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:26 PM (#5786912)
This story about Draymond is about what you would expect from a two-time defending champion in the middle of the regular season.
   2168. JC in DC Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:26 PM (#5786913)
I really kinda love Durant. I loved his reaction in the game, and I love that killer "Give me the damn ball" attitude. I respect Draymond for not backing down; I get that, but I just love seeing men go at it competitively even in the pro game when we so often hear they don't care. They care deeply, about the win, about their egos, and about each other. I wish my team was so competent it could have a meaningful argument like that.
   2169. Tin Angel Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:27 PM (#5786916)
Apparently Draymond kept calling KD a ##### and then challenged him about his upcoming free agency. Pretty lame, especially since the whole play was his fault.
   2170. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:31 PM (#5786918)
Right I don't think Hayward is broken, but who knows, maybe he is. Either way, any realistic scenario in which Boston is a title contender this year probably involves Hayward being good and on the team.
it was questionable whether hayward would live up to that contract even before last year's gruesome injury. now? 3/98 for a guy who was only ever a borderline top 20 player, who's still recovering from a major injury, who's already in his late 20s, who's never been a very good defender...if they can dump that contract, they should.

the worst case scenario for them is that kyrie leaves this summer, and they have to rebuild around jayson tatum, jaylen brown, marcus smart, terry rozier, 4 1st round draft picks (BOS, SAC (top 1 protected), MEM (top 8 protected), LAC (top 14 protected)) and enough cap space for one max contract offer.


the downside if they keep that contract is a lot worse than the downside if they get rid of it.
   2171. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:34 PM (#5786922)
trade machine: who says no?

PHI: kevin durant, andre iguodala
GSW: jimmy butler, jj redick, markelle fultz
   2172. tshipman Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:39 PM (#5786925)
I really kinda love Durant. I loved his reaction in the game, and I love that killer "Give me the damn ball" attitude. I respect Draymond for not backing down; I get that, but I just love seeing men go at it competitively even in the pro game when we so often hear they don't care. They care deeply, about the win, about their egos, and about each other. I wish my team was so competent it could have a meaningful argument like that.


I think that both sides have a point.

KD's position seems to be, I am the guy when the game is on the line. I've earned this, it's my role on this team.

Dray's position seems to be, there is no one guy, it's the system--run hard, space the floor, and let's get a better shot than you walking it up and throwing up a heave.

Neither guy is wrong, but Dray obviously took it too far, and KD probably shouldn't have made a big deal out of it when they still had a chance to win in OT.
   2173. aberg Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:45 PM (#5786933)
I think that both sides have a point.

KD's position seems to be, I am the guy when the game is on the line. I've earned this, it's my role on this team.

Dray's position seems to be, there is no one guy, it's the system--run hard, space the floor, and let's get a better shot than you walking it up and throwing up a heave.

Neither guy is wrong, but Dray obviously took it too far, and KD probably shouldn't have made a big deal out of it when they still had a chance to win in OT.


KD defends himself online with burner accounts. Dray kicks people in the man region on purpose. There are bad people on both sides.
   2174. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 13, 2018 at 06:47 PM (#5786935)
KD defends himself online with burner accounts. Dray kicks people in the man region on purpose. There are bad people on both sides.
noone is going to click this:
Draymond Green’s long summer of #### and balls-related controversy—he kneed Steven Adams in the dick, swiped at LeBron’s dick, and acted like a dick—continues unabated. Earlier today, amidst pictures of Melo sleeping and general Team USA shenanigans, an artfully crafted dick pic showed up on Green’s public Snapchat My Story, before swiftly being deleted.
Green initially tweeted that he had been hacked—the tried-and-true excuse of celebrities who screw up on social media—before admitting that he had meant to send out the dick as a private snap but hit the wrong button:

   2175. jmurph Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:14 PM (#5786961)
Guys, good seats and free novelty t-shirts are available in Cleveland tonight.
   2176. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:26 PM (#5786973)
@JessicaCamerato
"I think that I'm an incredible human being, teammate, and I'll show that to the guys that are here." - Jimmy Butler

@brianseltzer
Seems like this deal really highlights the strengths of relationships that EB has built around the league. Spoke to a handful of people about what Jimmy's like as a teammate, in locker room: "He pushed me to be better, that's what I was hearing."

@KyleNeubeck
"Just how hard they play," Butler says of his impression of the Sixers from afar, "and of course Jo on social media is a special work of art."
   2177. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:31 PM (#5786976)
I don't actually begrudge Butler the last six weeks. I wish him well in Philadelphia.
   2178. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: November 13, 2018 at 07:52 PM (#5786982)
"I think that I'm an incredible human being, teammate, and I'll show that to the guys that are here." - Jimmy Butler


Good lord this guy is feelin' himself. He's wore out his welcome in his previous two stops. We'll see how long this honeymoon period lasts.
   2179. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:05 PM (#5786988)
I thought Jerryd Bayless being off the team would stop the avalanche of stiggles trade "ideas". In retrospect, that was dumb.
   2180. Harlond Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:15 PM (#5786992)
Cleveland had itself a half against Charlotte. And this with Love, Hill, Korver, Osman out.

Also, at first I didn't like the Cav's city jersey, but they've grown on me.
   2181. aberg Posted: November 13, 2018 at 08:43 PM (#5787009)
I don't actually begrudge Butler the last six weeks. I wish him well in Philadelphia.


Ehhh, I empathize with his frustration with Taylor and Thibs. He lost me when he said in the same moment that (a) he wanted the Wolves to gut their roster to extend him at the max this summer, and (b) he is all about winning.

Be about the money! That's fine! But if your pursuit of money requires your team to make itself competitively worse, you don't get to talk about how competitive you are.
   2182. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:04 PM (#5787019)
I don't know, I mean I imagine most of us would agree with the following statements:

* I want to make more money, and
* I want my company to succeed
   2183. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:25 PM (#5787028)
Ehhh, I empathize with his frustration with Taylor and Thibs. He lost me when he said in the same moment that (a) he wanted the Wolves to gut their roster to extend him at the max this summer, and (b) he is all about winning.

Be about the money! That's fine! But if your pursuit of money requires your team to make itself competitively worse, you don't get to talk about how competitive you are.
MIN will pay teague, wiggins and dieng 62MM next season. i'm pretty sure dumping any of them would not have made you worse than alienating and subsequently dumping butler.
I thought Jerryd Bayless being off the team would stop the avalanche of stiggles trade "ideas". In retrospect, that was dumb.
yup.

you people had better nut up, because full 57i66135 is coming.
   2184. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:29 PM (#5787029)
Bizarro world NBA: Joel Embiid is leading the league in minutes played.
the sixers are the only team that's played 15 games, and 3 of those games have gone to overtime.

still, 35 MPG is easily top 20 this year.
   2185. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:32 PM (#5787032)
I don't know, I mean I imagine most of us would agree with the following statements:

* I want to make more money, and
* I want my company to succeed


My situation is not analogous to a pro basketball player's for numerous reasons, though. Just off the top of my head:

* I don't have to sign an exclusive contract with one employer to be allowed into my field
* My industry does not have a rigidly enforced legal limit on employee wages
* I am not one of the two or three most important employees in my entire company
* My employer is not permitted to assign me to a different employer without my approval
* My salary is not guaranteed for years hence
* A, let us say, 25% increase to my $70,000/year salary would be way more impactful to my daily life than a 25% increase to a pro basketball player's $20,000,000/year salary would be
* An injury severe enough to effectively end my career is far less likely to strike me than it is a professional athlete
* I do not make several times more money than my boss
* I am not represented by an agent
* I do not have dozens of hangers-on constantly chattering hundreds of different things in my ear as concerns my job or what I should do with the money I make from it
* No reporter has ever wanted to interview me about what I do at work

I typed all of the above without stopping; if I put minimal effort into it I'm sure I, or you, could triple the length of that list.
   2186. Fourth True Outcome Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:55 PM (#5787042)
I was glad Denver brought back the skyline jerseys for their city jerseys this season, but I'm watching the Denver broadcast of tonight's Denver/Houston game (Marcus Camby is visiting at the moment and it's great) and they did a who wore it better with some past versions of that which included a pic of Fat Lever looking awesome in it like this one and I cannot but think that this season's is a wan imitation. Shame on whoever designed this; they could have been so much more awesome.
   2187. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 09:56 PM (#5787043)
I really kinda love Durant. I loved his reaction in the game, and I love that killer "Give me the damn ball" attitude. I respect Draymond for not backing down; I get that, but I just love seeing men go at it competitively even in the pro game when we so often hear they don't care. They care deeply, about the win, about their egos, and about each other. I wish my team was so competent it could have a meaningful argument like that.

I really strongly dislike Durant. Thankfully, next year I can focus my cheering on Zion and Alabaster Ewing and I will just begrudgingly accept KD's contributions.
   2188. spivey Posted: November 13, 2018 at 10:13 PM (#5787052)
Dray's position seems to be, there is no one guy, it's the system--run hard, space the floor, and let's get a better shot than you walking it up and throwing up a heave.

That's a generous interpretation. It could be right, and I think there is probably some undercurrents of that. The free agency thing is kind of a personal thing to bring up, and makes me think there's more. Granted, sometimes when people get emotional they say hurtful/petty things, but if I can break out my armchair for a second, I wonder if they really view Durant as a complete member of the Warriors team/culture/dynasty or just a mercenary they are lucky to fight battle with. Durant's always seemed like a more introverted guy and even when Golden State is going well it seems like he doesn't quite fit in to everything they run - it's more Durant ball or Warriors offense. Luckily for them those are 2 of the 3 best offenses in the NBA, along with LeBron ball, but it hasn't perfectly meshed imo. Granted, they all kind of begged him to join, and Draymond was at the heart of that.

I also think that Durant overreacted. It was a bad play by Draymond but those happen, and Draymond handles a lot of the ball handling and distribution of the team. Hell, he leads the team in assists. Speaking of, Draymond is just getting 7.5 points/game and is shooting pretty poorly this year. Also Quinn Cook is 4th in points/game at 8.7 for the team. If there's one thing that could submarine them this year, it's the other guys maybe dropping off a bit.

Draymond also doesn't seem like a guy that takes critical feedback well.

Hot take: The Warriors are still going to win the title.
   2189. spivey Posted: November 13, 2018 at 10:15 PM (#5787053)
I was glad Denver brought back the skyline jerseys for their city jerseys this season, but I'm watching the Denver broadcast of tonight's Denver/Houston game (Marcus Camby is visiting at the moment and it's great) and they did a who wore it better with some past versions of that which included a pic of Fat Lever looking awesome in it like this one and I cannot but think that this season's is a wan imitation. Shame on whoever designed this; they could have been so much more awesome.

I agree. I like this one, but the old ones were way better. Bold without being obnoxious. I was looking at jerseys of the new ones on the NBA store, and eventually I was just like, "Why get this when I can spend a bit extra and get a way better Mutumbo one with the classic blue and skyline." I got neither, but I could buy Mutumbo.
   2190. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: November 13, 2018 at 11:38 PM (#5787069)
Draymond's mom weighs in:

KD should have ran and fill the lane like he always does. Dray got trapped because he was expecting him to be there and he wasn’t! #enoughsaid #Drayaintselfish
   2191. tshipman Posted: November 13, 2018 at 11:59 PM (#5787072)
That's a generous interpretation. It could be right, and I think there is probably some undercurrents of that. The free agency thing is kind of a personal thing to bring up, and makes me think there's more. Granted, sometimes when people get emotional they say hurtful/petty things, but if I can break out my armchair for a second, I wonder if they really view Durant as a complete member of the Warriors team/culture/dynasty or just a mercenary they are lucky to fight battle with. Durant's always seemed like a more introverted guy and even when Golden State is going well it seems like he doesn't quite fit in to everything they run - it's more Durant ball or Warriors offense. Luckily for them those are 2 of the 3 best offenses in the NBA, along with LeBron ball, but it hasn't perfectly meshed imo. Granted, they all kind of begged him to join, and Draymond was at the heart of that.

I also think that Durant overreacted. It was a bad play by Draymond but those happen, and Draymond handles a lot of the ball handling and distribution of the team. Hell, he leads the team in assists. Speaking of, Draymond is just getting 7.5 points/game and is shooting pretty poorly this year. Also Quinn Cook is 4th in points/game at 8.7 for the team. If there's one thing that could submarine them this year, it's the other guys maybe dropping off a bit.

Draymond also doesn't seem like a guy that takes critical feedback well.

Hot take: The Warriors are still going to win the title.


I think the undercurrents are there, but a lot of it is about basketball. Part of why there's so much emotion is that everyone wants KD to buy in to the system, but KD still holds himself apart from it at times.

Draymond is incredibly stubborn when he thinks he's right. That is a common flaw among top tier athletes.

Edit: Draymond's mom should not be adding her POV.
   2192. . . . . . . Posted: November 14, 2018 at 07:31 AM (#5787090)
Spent some time this AM watching some Knicks video. I think Frank N is looking busty. No wiggle, frankly not much of anything other than on-ball defense. Am I wrong?
   2193. JC in DC Posted: November 14, 2018 at 08:53 AM (#5787117)
[2192] "Bust" is a real possibility for Frank, and not because of "wiggle," but because of aggression. Another thing: he's really young, a pg, and they often take a few years to develop. That NY has not committed those years to him is a serious failure. It's not like we're jockeying for playoff position, so letting him run the point for 25-30 mins a night without question seems the way to go, and they've chosen instead to dick around with Trey Burke and Mudiay and whatever the heck they did last year. Frank has elite defensive skill and good vision. His handle is fine and would get better with play, and his shot is good. This is all about development. He may never be an attack guy, but he could be a solid PG. He could also be a bust, no question.
   2194. . . . . . . Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:23 AM (#5787129)
You don’t think Frank just doesn’t look very twitchy? That’s my concern. Just not that athletic. Reminds me of a Tony Allen type.
   2195. jmurph Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:26 AM (#5787133)
That NY has not committed those years to him is a serious failure. It's not like we're jockeying for playoff position, so letting him run the point for 25-30 mins a night without question seems the way to go, and they've chosen instead to dick around with Trey Burke and Mudiay and whatever the heck they did last year.

I have also been very confused by this. Especially with Burke- surprise!- back to being completely terrible again, as he has been for all but a half season of his career.
   2196. JC in DC Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:27 AM (#5787134)
What does twitchy or wiggly mean? I think it's become some sexy term for describing players that may or may not be predictive of much. Frank's a fine athlete: look at him stick to players as a defender. His thing is not to explode to the basket, which is not about twitch, in my opinion, but about aggression or violence. He doesn't play with the aggression/violence other guys do.
   2197. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:49 AM (#5787145)
What does twitchy or wiggly mean? I think it's become some sexy term for describing players that may or may not be predictive of much. Frank's a fine athlete: look at him stick to players as a defender. His thing is not to explode to the basket, which is not about twitch, in my opinion, but about aggression or violence. He doesn't play with the aggression/violence other guys do.
this is twitch:
deaaron fox

this is wiggle:
lonnie walker

this is porn:
ron jeremy.
   2198. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 14, 2018 at 09:56 AM (#5787153)
Love Fat Lever. Love love love.

Frank N - I don't think he's a point guard. I do think he can be a decent NBA player.
   2199. JC in DC Posted: November 14, 2018 at 11:38 AM (#5787280)
I think if Frank's not a PG, he's not a decent NBA player.
   2200. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 14, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5787289)
He's not yet. Defensive specialist who's a plus playmaker who can hit an open jumper (in time).
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