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Friday, October 05, 2018

OT - NBA Thread (2018-19 season kickoff edition)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom knew the old thread would get closed, thus detracting from what this site is really about: the baseball playoffs, maybe?

Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 05, 2018 at 03:43 PM | 3782 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   2401. Booey Posted: November 16, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5788594)
flip
   2402. jmurph Posted: November 16, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5788595)
but the MVP voting doesn't back it up. The voters of his own times sure didn't seem to think he was one of the biggest stars in the game.

The MVP voting is a fair point, but the rest is an overbid. He made the All Star team his first 12 seasons (only played 13), and more specifically to the point, during his best five years made three 1st team All NBA teams and two 2nds.

EDIT: It is sort of incongruous to be a 1st team All NBA player but finish only 9th in MVP voting, I'll give you that! I'm assuming a big man logjam, as usual.
   2403. Booey Posted: November 16, 2018 at 04:37 PM (#5788597)
D'oh! Yeah, I should've looked at the All NBA teams, too. I completely whiffed on that. That does help explain his reputation a bit more.
   2404. jmurph Posted: November 16, 2018 at 04:42 PM (#5788598)
Your main offense, Booey, is putting me in the position of defending Isiah Thomas. And for that you should apologize.
   2405. Booey Posted: November 16, 2018 at 04:45 PM (#5788599)
I am deeply sorry, jmurph. That's something NO ONE should ever have to do.
   2406. . . . . . . Posted: November 16, 2018 at 04:46 PM (#5788601)

Rodman is a really interesting guy because he has a tremendous amount of value in things that he does that are non-duplicative.

Some guys are floor raisers--Kobe, Carmelo, Shaq, AI--in that their best skill is that they can get you a 2p FGA with just a few seconds notice that will go in 40%+ of the time. That's really, really valuable! You are less likely to just go scoreless for several minutes!

Rodman is a weird in that what he did well was largely stuff that wasn't duplicated. So his offensive rebounds didn't take away stats from other players. Same for his defense.

Rodman is weird in that he's more valuable on a team with a Jordan--very similar to Draymond in that way--than he is on a bad team. He doesn't raise the floor of his teams at all, but he does improve the ceiling.


ty for this tship. I was thinking that he was Draymond before Draymond and it seems like that's where you come out as well. May even have been more crazy than Draymond. Maybe.
   2407. aberg Posted: November 16, 2018 at 04:53 PM (#5788605)
Probably goes without saying, but Rodman was a much better rebounder and Draymond is a much better passer/playmaker. Their defensive versatility is similar.

I've never seen anyone with the rebounding instincts and anticipation that Rodman had.
   2408. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: November 16, 2018 at 04:59 PM (#5788607)
Since he was referenced on the last page, and since I can't remember if we ever had this discussion, is E'Twaun Moore the greatest 55th pick in league history (I know what some of you are thinking right now, and Manu went 57th)? He has to at least be close.
   2409. aberg Posted: November 16, 2018 at 05:01 PM (#5788608)
I was digging around the SI vault for Isiah stuff and came across this article. By Jack McCallum, so it's good, of course. Really cool cover, too.
   2410. JC in DC Posted: November 16, 2018 at 05:07 PM (#5788612)
This is fun. I agree with pretty much everything robin and aberg and such said about Thomas. I don't really think it's debatable whether he was the best (maybe, most important?) player on that team. At some point I don't think you just say it's coincidental when a player elevates his game when it matters. I grant that's a tough call, and there may be no science here, but he did do that. As I said before, not just in the NBA: the guy was freshman all Big Ten, and Indiana won the whole thing his second and final year there. I think he was even the tournament MVP. The guy could ball.

I don't think I'm overrating him. He's not Magic. He's not Oscar. I agree on that. I'd probably put Stockton above him, and won't speak to Cousy, the game was so different. But after that? Isiah's in the conversation and certainly merits top 10 consideration, and probably is in that 4-7 mix.
   2411. tshipman Posted: November 16, 2018 at 05:36 PM (#5788621)
I don't think I'm overrating him. He's not Magic. He's not Oscar. I agree on that. I'd probably put Stockton above him, and won't speak to Cousy, the game was so different. But after that? Isiah's in the conversation and certainly merits top 10 consideration, and probably is in that 4-7 mix.


I think he's a little underrated by stats guys, but you aren't considering all the active guys and recently retired guys that were better than him.

If you go in some order:
Magic
Oscar
Stockton

then you also have among more recent guys:
Curry
CP3
Gary Payton
Nash
Westbrook
Kidd

It starts to get easy for Thomas to be outside of the top 10.
   2412. JC in DC Posted: November 16, 2018 at 05:51 PM (#5788625)
I thought about recent and current guys. As much as i worry about "memory" bias, I worry about current bias. I'd have him above Nash and Kidd and Westbrook, without question. Above Payton as well, who's overrated on this board, IMHO. CP3 and Curry? Curry probably will end comfortably above him. I wonder about CP3.
   2413. tshipman Posted: November 16, 2018 at 05:58 PM (#5788627)
Then I would disagree. I think you are overrating him :)
   2414. aberg Posted: November 16, 2018 at 06:09 PM (#5788630)
I'd say Thomas is very close with Kidd and Nash. I'd ultimately probably take either of them above Thomas. Yes, he finished the deal and won two titles, but both of them had their share of postseason heroics. Kidd, in particular, did it on vastly inferior rosters. Both of them have better career stats. I just don't think Zeke's postseason accomplishments are better than their's by a big enough margin to make up for that.

I'm not comfortable comparing him to Westbrook until we see what comes next for Russ.

Thomas vs. Payton is interesting.
   2415. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 16, 2018 at 06:11 PM (#5788631)
Wasn’t trying to demean Thomas by saying “he got hot”. Whatever happened, good or bad, he gets credit for that with me.
   2416. GregD Posted: November 16, 2018 at 07:25 PM (#5788647)
I didn't follow Dantley in his prime. According to his stats, he looks like an all-time great, albeit far away from the KAJ, MJ, LBJ tier. However, I get the impression that he was considered to be a pretty good, but not great player in his prime. Maybe the way Demar DeRozen is considered today?

What was it about him that made him considered to be worse than what the stats indicate? Porous defense? Team cancer? Stat padding in blowout games?

I don't remember Dantley's young years; I can just remember him hitting his prime with Utah. There, I didn't like him as he seemed like just a gunner on a team that didn't play much defense. Or rebound. He could score a ton, though.

But his last year in Utah and then even more so with Detroit, he started to transition. One thing was that he consciously fit in with Detroit--often as their offensive threat but still in their system. And he seemed to be revered there, though I could be wrong in my memory of that.

What stood out to me as he began to age is that I thought he made the most remarkable transition I could remember in his scoring. In Utah I recall him shooting lots of long twos and sometimes slipping in among people. But as he slowed down, he became the single-most interesting post player I've ever seen. Unlike Barkley he had no butt to rely on. He may have been slightly shorter than Barkley. But he had literally a thousand moves, phenomenal control of the ball with his hands, and limitless ways of spinning the ball off the backboard. My high school coach had played against lots of pro players in the 1950s in different military and semi-pro leagues, and thought Dantley was the only player who reminded him of the great Cliff Hagan, and who also had developed a limitless number of ways to score over taller and stronger players. Riley was a little like that, too, but dirtier and less elite, obviously. Dantley's heyday in Detroit was maybe the single most enjoyable period of watching a player I can recall. It just seemed so unlikely and yet also so simple. He wasn't falling down or making hold your breath athletic moves. He just seemed like he knew the game in a way his opponents never would. Like a fastball pitcher losing his stuff and then thriving with junk.

I would guess his career perception was hurt by 1) his extremely quick aging--I think his knees went and even though he wasn't a great athlete by his late 20s he depended on spinning past people, 2) his consistently mediocre defense, 3) his early reputation as a gunner, and 4) the fact that he was peculiarly hard to picture even though he was incredibly effective. He wasn't Alex English gliding in, or Dale Ellis setting up in the corner. He had too many different moves to have a signature. Everything was a counter. You play me this way, I go that way. You respond to my move this way, I counter that way. I loved imitating those counters. McHale was more effective at the classic post moves but could also rely at times on turning and shooting over people (especially when centers had to guard The Chief), and Olajuwon was obviously the greatest ever at the step toward the middle spin back to the baseline for the rising fallaway jumper. But Dantley seemed like he would be in the top 5 ever at like 11 different post moves.

I'm not sure I would want him on my team but he was a beautiful player to watch, in the way old boxers can be beautiful to watch on film. Nothing in basketball seemed to surprise him. He was also an all-time great college player, crucial to one of the most-famous games of all time where his Notre Dame team ended UCLA's win streak, played for (and helped establish the cred of) the greatest high school program in the country's history, and led the US team to a gold medal at the Montreal Olympics after they lost controversially four years before.

I don't know what to make of this story about him working as a school crossing guard. Heartwarming in that it shows he loves people? Tragic in that he is doing it for the health insurance? Both?

Ed to add: not "literally a thousand moves" but it seemed like it
   2417. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: November 16, 2018 at 07:26 PM (#5788648)
The Sixers missed their first FG after 6 minutes and 21 points scored. At least last year when the Jazz were awful it was because Rudy was injured. Something is seriously wrong with this team this year.
   2418. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 16, 2018 at 07:50 PM (#5788651)
The Sixers missed their first FG after 6 minutes and 21 points scored. At least last year when the Jazz were awful it was because Rudy was injured. Something is seriously wrong with this team this year.
don't worry, the sixers aren't able to play 48 minutes yet. UTA will get back into this soon enough.
   2419. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: November 16, 2018 at 07:55 PM (#5788652)
   2420. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: November 16, 2018 at 08:07 PM (#5788657)
Markelle Fultz: still broken.


I thought I was seeing things when I saw that at first.

don't worry, the sixers aren't able to play 48 minutes yet. UTA will get back into this soon enough.


This also looks true, but I'm still pretty down on the Jazz this year. Rubio has played worse than most G-league PGs would, Donovan has not improved in any area this season (and is chucking off the bounce threes like he's Dame), and all their best perimeter defenders seem particularly hurt by the new freedom of movement rules.
   2421. tshipman Posted: November 16, 2018 at 08:20 PM (#5788658)
Markelle Fultz: still broken.


I had to watch this three times to make sure that I was seeing what I thought I saw.

Never seen a guy juggle his FT shot before ...
   2422. JC in DC Posted: November 16, 2018 at 08:22 PM (#5788659)
That Fultz clip is a pretty clear indication this is mental and not physical, which is just, ugh.

One thing y'all may know better than I is how to measure rebounding. Obviously, the pure total can be misleading, but how can you measure (do they measure?) contested rebounds, or rebounds won? Kanter, for instance, picks up a ton of rebounds, even on the glass, but oddly enough, a lot of those don't even seem contested. Put another way, I'm not sure how much he adds even with the rebounding totals, which alone would indicate he's giving you something.
   2423. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: November 16, 2018 at 08:23 PM (#5788660)
The Wolves are wearing the Prince jerseys tonight. I strongly approve.
   2424. JC in DC Posted: November 16, 2018 at 08:26 PM (#5788661)
For 8 minutes all is right in Knicks' world: up on the road, Robinson outplaying the Brow, Knox at the 4. I almost feel like going to bed.
   2425. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: November 16, 2018 at 08:42 PM (#5788665)
Now we just need to rid ourselves of Thibs and Rose and I can unreservedly root for this team.
   2426. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: November 16, 2018 at 08:43 PM (#5788667)
JJ Reddick just kicked Rubio in the face on a shot attempt, trying to draw the foul. I'm honestly impressed he could get that high.

Also a pretty good encapsulation of the season. Ricky gets kicked in the face and goes and misses both free throws and a field goal.
   2427. JC in DC Posted: November 16, 2018 at 08:46 PM (#5788669)
Kanter is a horrible defender. Just horrible.
   2428. PJ Martinez Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:00 PM (#5788672)
It looked for a minute like Toronto was going to pull away from Boston in the third, but then they started getting Valanciunas a bunch of touches for some reason, and Boston got back into it.
   2429. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:03 PM (#5788673)
Never seen a guy juggle his FT shot before ...
the more interesting thing is that he keeps doing it.
   2430. Master of the Horse Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:04 PM (#5788674)
2427--Who is the worst defensive great player ever? And not like LeBron now where he coasts most of the season on defense but when he was at his best could really play. But a guy who at 25 was like unstoppable hooping offensively but was horrible on D. Did Bernard King play decent defense? I see him on Youtube and the guy was awesome but it's all offense.
   2431. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:07 PM (#5788675)
2427--Who is the worst defensive great player ever? And not like LeBron now where he coasts most of the season on defense but when he was at his best could really play. But a guy who at 25 was like unstoppable hooping offensively but was horrible on D. Did Bernard King play decent defense? I see him on Youtube and the guy was awesome but it's all offense.
steve nash.
   2432. tshipman Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:08 PM (#5788676)
One thing y'all may know better than I is how to measure rebounding. Obviously, the pure total can be misleading, but how can you measure (do they measure?) contested rebounds, or rebounds won? Kanter, for instance, picks up a ton of rebounds, even on the glass, but oddly enough, a lot of those don't even seem contested. Put another way, I'm not sure how much he adds even with the rebounding totals, which alone would indicate he's giving you something.


NBA.com measures contested rebounds, but that's not really what I would recommend.

When you're looking at a big, take a look at how the team's defensive rebounding is when they're on the court vs. off the court. This is also imperfect! Some guys play more with other guys, which can lead their rebounding to get inflated or deflated, based on lineup stats. Guys who are always paired with a second big will look better than guys who are trusted to play with three wings.

However, it does let you see the difference between Brook Lopez and Thon Maker, which can be hard to see otherwise.

   2433. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:20 PM (#5788679)
2427--Who is the worst defensive great player ever? And not like LeBron now where he coasts most of the season on defense but when he was at his best could really play. But a guy who at 25 was like unstoppable hooping offensively but was horrible on D. Did Bernard King play decent defense? I see him on Youtube and the guy was awesome but it's all offense.

Dirk?
   2434. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:22 PM (#5788681)
Who is the worst defensive great player ever?

James Harden?
   2435. tshipman Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:28 PM (#5788683)
Interesting thing about the TOR/BOS game:

Lowry is guarding Tatum and Kawhi is guarding Kyrie down the stretch.
   2436. Master of the Horse Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:28 PM (#5788684)
Can it really be a recent guy? Those 70's clips I see guys sort of hanging out on defense and if a guy misses a shot that's good defense
   2437. tshipman Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:31 PM (#5788685)
As soon as I type that, they go back to Kawhi on Tatum.
   2438. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:33 PM (#5788686)
Is my memory of Barkley being a bad defender correct? I would think Dirk still edges him out for worse defense by a great player, and Harden would too.
   2439. spivey Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:40 PM (#5788688)
The Toronto/Boston game has had a playoff edge.

It’s felt like the whistle has favored Boston. But pumped up home game.
   2440. PJ Martinez Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:43 PM (#5788689)
The first BOS/TOR game was good, too. This is a fun matchup.
   2441. spivey Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:47 PM (#5788690)
Boston players do the flail when they realize they may not secure a loose ball more than any team in the nba.
   2442. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:47 PM (#5788692)
I called Kyrie over-rated earlier. You're welcome, Boston fans.
   2443. tshipman Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:48 PM (#5788693)
Is my memory of Barkley being a bad defender correct? I would think Dirk still edges him out for worse defense by a great player, and Harden would too.


Dirk was a totally fine defender until he turned 30.

It's gotta be someone like AI.
   2444. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:52 PM (#5788694)
I’m going to think about this worst defense thing...
One issue is that there’s D at prime and D at other times...

Barkley was bad at D. I only remember older Dantley, which was bad at D (though he was always bad at it, as I understand things). I only remember post injury Bernard, who was bad at D.
Alex English had pretty bad D. Mullin too.

No one’s idea of a great player, but how bad was Billy Ray Bates on defense? Another tier down - worst defender I’ve ever seen in the NBA might have been Derrick Gervin..
   2445. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: November 16, 2018 at 09:55 PM (#5788695)
Another thing about Dantley - all those counters sloooowed things down. Great offensive player (and awesome to watch) but I get why people didn’t like playing with him.
   2446. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:06 PM (#5788698)
trade machine: who says no?

PHI: kevin durant, demarcus cousins, jordan bell
GSW: joel embiid
   2447. Tin Angel Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:11 PM (#5788700)
It's gotta be someone like AI.


Monta Ellis.
   2448. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:13 PM (#5788701)
trade machine: who says no?

PHI: kevin durant, demarcus cousins, jordan bell
GSW: joel embiid


Philly.
   2449. PJ Martinez Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:17 PM (#5788702)
Apparently tonight was the first time Kyrie Irving had ever scored 40+ points and had 10+ assists in the same game.
   2450. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:19 PM (#5788703)
40 points/10 assists has to be a pretty rare achievement for anybody, right?
   2451. Tin Angel Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:19 PM (#5788704)
I hope JC in DC actually went to bed.
   2452. Tin Angel Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:23 PM (#5788706)
Thoughts on the reduced shot clock on an offensive rebound? I really like it.
   2453. jmurph Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:23 PM (#5788707)
That Fultz thing is one of the strangest things I've ever seen on a basketball court. It's impossible for me to believe that throwing him out there every night is good for him.

Apparently tonight was the first time Kyrie Irving had ever scored 40+ points and had 10+ assists in the same game.

He was just ridiculous. He definitely is one of those handful of guys that, when he's on, you feel like he can make anything he attempts. Hayward had a really good all around game, too, though I'm guessing after going well over his minutes limit they'll sit him tomorrow night against Utah.

Toronto is really damn good. I thought Boston played one of their best halves of the season in the first half, and they went into the break up only 1. They just couldn't get any separation until the end. Impressive both ways.
   2454. jmurph Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:24 PM (#5788708)
40 points/10 assists has to be a pretty rare achievement for anybody, right?

I'm assuming Westbrook has done it several times.
   2455. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:24 PM (#5788709)
Philly.
i think i agree, but the upside for PHI would be off the charts. simmons/redick/durant/butler/cousins would be an insane lineup. and unlike GSW, PHI should have enough cap room to keep cousins (and butler, and durant) next summer.
40 points/10 assists has to be a pretty rare achievement for anybody, right?
since 2001, there are 4 players who have done it 10 times.

two of them were teammates.
one of them has never lost to lebron in the finals.
the last one is the answer.
   2456. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:25 PM (#5788710)
I hope JC in DC actually went to bed.

Competitive basketball resulting in a loss is the best of both worlds right now.
   2457. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:26 PM (#5788711)
Competitive basketball resulting in a loss is the best of both worlds right now.
now we're having a process #clutchloss
   2458. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:27 PM (#5788712)
i think i agree, but the upside for PHI would be off the charts. simmons/redick/durant/butler/cousins would be an insane lineup. and unlike GSW, PHI should have enough cap room to keep cousins next summer

Durant is a FA. Cousins is coming back from an unprecedented injury situation. Embiid is in the best player in basketball conversation right now.
   2459. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:30 PM (#5788713)
Any evaluation of Embiid has to take account of the ever-present risk that recurrence of his scary past injury(ies) may abruptly end him as a reliable superstar. One healthy year isn't enough to make me forget about the Bill Walton potential there.
   2460. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:31 PM (#5788716)
Jabari Parker is visually unappealing.
   2461. PJ Martinez Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:43 PM (#5788720)
“So much more fun to play with these guys... Everybody wants to win and when somebody messes up, you talk to them, they don’t take it personal and they do their job.” - Jimmy Butler postgame.
I love how "somebody" here conceivably refers to everyone except for Jimmy Butler. The usual cliche is to say "we pick each other up," not "the other guys don't get mad when I tell them they screwed up."
   2462. jmurph Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:53 PM (#5788723)
The Wolves don't exactly seem sad to be without him, either. 3-0 since the trade, and certainly more fun to watch than whatever the hell they were doing the first part of the season.
   2463. maccoach57 Posted: November 16, 2018 at 10:53 PM (#5788724)
Is my memory of Barkley being a bad defender correct?


IMO yes.
   2464. aberg Posted: November 16, 2018 at 11:11 PM (#5788728)
@GregD- thanks for that excellent Dantley post. Really enjoyed it.

Wolves spanked Portland AND wore Prince jerseys and it was blacked out here. Lame
   2465. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 16, 2018 at 11:16 PM (#5788729)
Durant is a FA. Cousins is coming back from an unprecedented injury situation. Embiid is in the best player in basketball conversation right now.

durant's impending free agency is a concern, but like with jimmy butler, i assume there would be some kind of wink/wink assurance made before the trade was completed.

cousins is kind of a throw in, to be honest. i doubt he'll recover to his pre-injury level of performance, but as long as he's healthy enough to stand on the court, he should at least be able to stretch the floor on offense, and rebound on defense. it's also possible he'll still be able to do alot more than that.
Any evaluation of Embiid has to take account of the ever-present risk that recurrence of his scary past injury(ies) may abruptly end him as a reliable superstar. One healthy year isn't enough to make me forget about the Bill Walton potential there.

the guy broke his foot. his recovery took longer than expected because he grew three inches while he was injured. then his foot broke again. now it's healed.
two years ago, he hyperextended his knee, then tried to play through it, resulting in a torn meniscus. that's also healed.
last year, his face was broken by his spazzy, broken shot having, teammate. that's healed now, too.
I love how "somebody" here conceivably refers to everyone except for Jimmy Butler. The usual cliche is to say "we pick each other up," not "the other guys don't get mad when I tell them they screwed up."
FWIW, butler had 28, 3, 7 assists and 2 steals, on 12/15 shooting and was +12 in 37 minutes. at least for tonight, he wasn't the "somebody".
   2466. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: November 16, 2018 at 11:19 PM (#5788730)
Bucks just outscored the Bulls 46-17 in the third. One of the more astonishing quarters of basketball you'll see. The Bulls defense was, uhhhh, not good.
   2467. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: November 16, 2018 at 11:24 PM (#5788731)
The Bucks appear to be good.
   2468. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 16, 2018 at 11:32 PM (#5788734)
Bucks just outscored the Bulls 46-17 in the third. One of the more astonishing quarters of basketball you'll see. The Bulls defense was, uhhhh, not good.


3169. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: July 14, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5709916)
i'm not sure how good CHI will be offensively, but with lavine, parker, markkanen, valentine, zipser, they should at least be pretty terrible defensively.
   2469. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: November 16, 2018 at 11:34 PM (#5788736)
   2470. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 16, 2018 at 11:37 PM (#5788737)
Helluva catch by a redditor:

Check out Brad Stevens' reaction to a Jayson Tatum iso.
that wasn't a reaction to tatum iso'ing, it was a reaction to a 40% 3P shooter turning down an open corner 3.
   2471. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: November 16, 2018 at 11:43 PM (#5788738)
I'm pretty sure that all of Milwaukee's shots in the second half have been wide open. It is fascinating to watch an NBA team play so badly on defense. It is like All-Star game level of confusion and indifference.
   2472. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: November 16, 2018 at 11:48 PM (#5788739)
This is I think the first time I've seen Cristiano Felicio play. How is this guy in the NBA, let alone on a 3/24 contract??? Doughy body, hands of stone, indifferent defender, no shooting ability. Granting that this was garbage time, what is this guy good at?
   2473. PJ Martinez Posted: November 17, 2018 at 12:14 AM (#5788741)
It's Insider, so I haven't read it, but Pelton makes the case for the Bucks.
   2474. JC in DC Posted: November 17, 2018 at 05:46 AM (#5788745)
Yeah, I watched the game. The numbers give no indication of how disruptive Robinson was. AD is great, but the refs get an assist for waking him up in the second quarter.
   2475. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 17, 2018 at 09:55 AM (#5788748)
donovan mitchell last night:
31 points
13/35 from the field.
1/11 from 3
37%/9%/57%
2 rebounds
0 assists


35 shots
0 assists


   2476. JC in DC Posted: November 17, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5788763)
Yeah, I watched some of that game. He's a dynamic guy, and a fearless shooter. In a way, I would't worry about it were I a fan of the team. They all look to him to shoot/score/attack. He'll figure it out.
   2477. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: November 17, 2018 at 11:30 AM (#5788764)
I know it's not an exact science, but is there a place to get game-by-game stats on how other players shot on would-be-assists? Mitchell kicked to Jingles late who missed the shot, and I wonder how many of those there are. I'd assume teams track this internally.
   2478. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 17, 2018 at 11:55 AM (#5788766)
i won't say that i just realized this, but i was looking back at kentucky's roster in 2015, and i guess i'd forgotten that most of karl towns's playing came alongside willie cauley stein and dakari johnson, meaning he spent most of his freshman year at PF.

now that MIN has some extra depth, i wonder how much better off they'd be if they spun off a few spare parts to get someone like vucevic or shiteside or kanter or lopez, so KAT could play more minutes at PF.


on a related note, which is the best college team of the decade:
2010 kentucky (wall, cousins, patterson, bledsoe)
2011 kansas (morris, morris, robinson)
2012 kentucky (davis, MKG, jones)
2013 louisville (smith, siva, dieng, harrell)
2014 arizona (gordon, hollis-jefferson, mcconnell, johnson)
2014 kansas (wiggins, embiid, seldon, mason, black)
2014 kentucky (towns, booker, cauley-stein, harrison, harrison, ulis)
2015 duke (okafor, winslow, jones, allen)
2015 wisconsin (kaminsky, dekker, hayes)
2016 villanova (hart, brunson, bridges)
2017 UCLA (ball, leaf, anigbogu, holiday)
2018 villanova (brunson, bridges, divincenzo, spellman)
2019 duke (zion, reddish, barrett)
   2479. spivey Posted: November 17, 2018 at 12:38 PM (#5788775)
The 2014-2015 Kentucky team that lost to Wisconsin is probably the best college team I can remember seeing. Their length and athleticism was just insane - it was legitimately like watching an NBA level defensive team against college teams. And hell, they also played almost the whole season without one of their best players, Poythress.

They didn't have an answer for Kaminsky that night, though.
   2480. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: November 17, 2018 at 01:12 PM (#5788790)
For 2015 Duke, you forgot Golden State's fourth-leading scorer, who actually had a much larger role than Grayson Allen. However, 2015 Kentucky seems like the right answer. Every member of their 9-man rotation is an NBA player: KAT, Booker, WCS, Lyles, the Harrisons, Ulis, Poythress, and Dakari Johnson. According to kenpom that team blows everyone else away, even though it fell short of the title.

Also, it's funny that one of the top few teams of the decade statistically is 2011 Ohio State, which had almost no NBA talent. Beyond Jared Sullinger, the rest of the rotation included David Lighty, Jon Diebler, William Buford, Aaron Craft, Deshaun Thomas, and Dallas Lauderdale.
   2481. PJ Martinez Posted: November 17, 2018 at 01:30 PM (#5788796)
Duncan and Leroux devoted a podcast segment to possible Fultz trades recently. They both saw possible matches with Orlando, Phoenix, and Chicago, and also discussed ways that Sacramento could facilitate trades with other teams. Basic gist was that there are somewhat overpaid veteran role players on those first three teams that could help Philly now, and that if any one of those teams sees a glimmer of hope in Fultz they could conceivably pull the trigger. (Both also thought that, for one of the better versions of those players -- Ariza, say -- Philly might need to throw in another small asset. Duncan had talked to some lower-level executives around the league to get a sense of Fultz's trade value.)
   2482. tshipman Posted: November 17, 2018 at 01:48 PM (#5788804)
I know it's not an exact science, but is there a place to get game-by-game stats on how other players shot on would-be-assists? Mitchell kicked to Jingles late who missed the shot, and I wonder how many of those there are. I'd assume teams track this internally.


Nba.com tracks potential assists. It's not as interesting as I thought it'd be.

now that MIN has some extra depth, i wonder how much better off they'd be if they spun off a few spare parts to get someone like vucevic or shiteside or kanter or lopez, so KAT could play more minutes at PF.


This is a terrible idea.
   2483. Red Voodooin Posted: November 17, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5788812)
2017 UCLA (ball, leaf, anigbogu, holiday)


This was almost certainly the worst team on this list.
   2484. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 17, 2018 at 02:59 PM (#5788823)
Duncan and Leroux devoted a podcast segment to possible Fultz trades recently. They both saw possible matches with Orlando, Phoenix, and Chicago, and also discussed ways that Sacramento could facilitate trades with other teams. Basic gist was that there are somewhat overpaid veteran role players on those first three teams that could help Philly now, and that if any one of those teams sees a glimmer of hope in Fultz they could conceivably pull the trigger. (Both also thought that, for one of the better versions of those players -- Ariza, say -- Philly might need to throw in another small asset. Duncan had talked to some lower-level executives around the league to get a sense of Fultz's trade value.)
ORL: augustin, ross, simmons
PHX: warren? (i'm a hard 'no' on crawford and anderson and a soft 'no' on ariza)
CHI: portis, holiday

i could be wrong, but i think at least one or two of those players could be had for a 2nd round pick and an expiring contract. there's no reason to blow fultz for someone of that quality.
This was almost certainly the worst team on this list.
BKref has their offense rated higher than anyone else this decade.
   2485. puck Posted: November 17, 2018 at 03:08 PM (#5788826)
On GregD on Dantley:

That is my memory of him as a prime Jazz player as well. He was one of my favorites because he scored in the lane a lot as a short guy, and drew tons of fouls and made his free throws. I wouldn't call him a "gunner" but he had the ball all the time and the offense went through him. I remember Wilting being very complimentary of his scoring off the post, esp. due to his lack of height.

I have no real take on him being overrated/underrated, but it surprised me seeing him being suggested as overrated because even though he's in the Hall of fame, people don't seem to speak that highly of him.
   2486. tshipman Posted: November 17, 2018 at 04:00 PM (#5788849)
i could be wrong, but i think at least one or two of those players could be had for a 2nd round pick and an expiring contract. there's no reason to blow fultz for someone of that quality.


I think Markelle Fultz is about worth a second round pick.

He has an 11 million dollar cap hold next year!
   2487. JJ1986 Posted: November 17, 2018 at 07:10 PM (#5788883)
I don't really see any reason for Philly to dump Fultz right now. If they get to the trade deadline and think they can really win the East, then it might make sense to move him for a Ross or an Ariza, but that's bad value. If their concern is next year, I think it's pretty likely they'll be able to find a team to dump him on if they can convince Klay Thompson or Khris Middleton to sign with them.
   2488. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 17, 2018 at 07:15 PM (#5788885)
I think Markelle Fultz is about worth a second round pick.

He has an 11 million dollar cap hold next year!
if that's what fultz is worth, the sixers have nothing to lose by hanging on to him a little longer.
worst case scenario A: the sixers can clear ~6MM in cap room by stretching fultz next summer.
worst case scenario B: like jahlil okafor before him, the sixers can use fultz to balance some trade as an expiring contract next year.

there's no reason to panic about this.



the interesting thing, imo, is whether the sixers will be willing to take on future salary in a trade now that they have butler. if that's the case, their options become a lot more compelling, and a lot more affordable.
   2489. PJ Martinez Posted: November 17, 2018 at 07:15 PM (#5788886)
If they get to the trade deadline and think they can really win the East, then it might make sense to move him for a Ross or an Ariza, but that's bad value.
What would be good (realistic) value for Fultz? And do you think his trade value is likely to go up between now and the end of the season?
the interesting thing, imo, is whether the sixers will be willing to take on future salary in a trade now that they have butler. if that's the case, their options become a lot more compelling, and a lot more affordable.
Yeah, this seems key.
   2490. PJ Martinez Posted: November 17, 2018 at 07:41 PM (#5788892)
Also, re: 2488, I don't think that's the right lesson to take from what happened with Okafor.
   2491. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 17, 2018 at 07:43 PM (#5788894)
I agree that this is key.
just as an example, what would it cost for the sixers to get danilo gallinari, montrezl harrell and lou williams from LAC?

that would come with a ton of baggage, but it would also give the sixers 6 of the top 50 players in FTA/FGA this season. it would fill a bunch of holes, too, since gallinari spreads the floor, harrell is a huge upgrade over amir johnson as embiid's backup, and lou williams can to take control of the 2nd unit and make sure they stop getting run off the damn court.

simmons/redick/butler/gallinari/embiid
bench: louwill, harrell, (jeff green? justin holiday? thabo? vince carter?)

   2492. PJ Martinez Posted: November 17, 2018 at 07:44 PM (#5788896)
what would it cost for the sixers to get danilo gallinari, montrezl harrell and lou williams from LAC?
A lot, I assume?
   2493. tshipman Posted: November 17, 2018 at 08:10 PM (#5788904)
just as an example, what would it cost for the sixers to get danilo gallinari, montrezl harrell and lou williams from LAC?


I doubt that there's a legal trade you would think well of.
   2494. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 17, 2018 at 08:14 PM (#5788905)
A lot, I assume?
would it?

gallinari's contract is really ugly; LAC couldn't even get a 1st round pick for lou williams at last year's deadline; harrell is productive, but he's not even starting for them.

to make the salaries match, the sixers would have to send wilson chandler, mike muscala, markelle fultz and justin patton, which would open ~23MM in cap space for LAC next summer. that's would get them within spitting distance of 3 max contract slots for, as an example, kawhi, klay and kousins.
   2495. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: November 17, 2018 at 08:17 PM (#5788906)
just as an example, what would it cost for the sixers to get danilo gallinari, montrezl harrell and lou williams from LAC?
I can't think of a sane reason for the Clips to give up Harrell unless one of Simmons or Embiid goes to Los Angeles. Harrell's a real find, and there's just not enough talent outside of those two on Philly's roster to swing that.
   2496. PJ Martinez Posted: November 17, 2018 at 08:21 PM (#5788908)
gallinari's contract is really ugly; LAC couldn't even get a 1st round pick for lou williams at last year's deadline; harrell is productive, but he's not even starting for them.
Taking this in reverse:

1. Harrell's playing 24 mpg, the highest of his career, and putting up great numbers
2. You don't appear to be offering a first-round pick, so that's neither here nor there*
3. Gallinari's contract is indeed not terribly pretty, but there's only one more year after this one, and when he's healthy he's decent

The bigger point, though, is that the Clippers are 9-5 and for the time being seem intent on making the playoffs. Maybe that changes, in which case perhaps they become interested in dumping salary. For now, though, I think they want to look good so that they can attract those free agents you mention. As I recall, they have been linked in the past to Kawhi and also to Jimmy Butler.

* Edit: i.e., last year they asked for a first-round pick and when they didn't get one they didn't trade him.
   2497. spivey Posted: November 17, 2018 at 08:28 PM (#5788909)
gallinari's contract is really ugly; LAC couldn't even get a 1st round pick for lou williams at last year's deadline; harrell is productive, but he's not even starting for them.

On top of tshipman's point that I don't really see a reasonable way you can get salaries to match in a way that doesn't involve Philadelphia giving up someone you'd likely consider untouchable.

The other factor is the Clippers are good this year. And not just like good record, but maybe a mirage. Their SRS is one of the best in the NBA. They're not just dealing 3 key rotation pieces for Fultz, McConnell, and a bag of magic beans.
   2498. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 17, 2018 at 08:29 PM (#5788910)
kemba walker should definitely think twice before fouling jimmy butler's elbow with his chin again.


damnit. they changed that to an offensive foul on butler.
   2499. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: November 17, 2018 at 09:05 PM (#5788912)
On top of tshipman's point that I don't really see a reasonable way you can get salaries to match in a way that doesn't involve Philadelphia giving up someone you'd likely consider untouchable.
wilson chandler, markelle fultz, mike muscala and justin patton is enough to match the salaries. whether that's enough to get it done...that's kind of what this discussion is about.
The other factor is the Clippers are good this year. And not just like good record, but maybe a mirage. Their SRS is one of the best in the NBA. They're not just dealing 3 key rotation pieces for Fultz, McConnell, and a bag of magic beans.

counterpoint:
lou williams' minutes can be absorbed by pat beverley, shai gilgeous-alexander, avery bradley, milos teodosic, jerome robinson, tyrone wallace and markelle fultz.
gallinari's minutes would be replaced by chandler and muscala. that's a downgrade, yes, but only for as long as gallinari is able to stay healthy, which is never very long.
harrell might be too big of an ask, but ymmv.


also, i'm not as convinced that LAC is real. they beat GSW without curry; OKC without westbrook; HOU without CP3; HOU without harden. their offensive and defensive four factors are not overly impressive. they're average or worse in 5 of the 8 criteria.
   2500. spivey Posted: November 17, 2018 at 09:10 PM (#5788914)

I just saw on Twitter that Wiggins is shooting 41% on 6 3pa/g. Which is really good. Of course, his TS% is 51 because he's still long 2'ing all over the place and he doesn't get to the free throw line anymore.
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