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Friday, October 05, 2018

OT - NBA Thread (2018-19 season kickoff edition)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom knew the old thread would get closed, thus detracting from what this site is really about: the baseball playoffs, maybe?

Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 05, 2018 at 03:43 PM | 6856 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   3401. maccoach57 Posted: December 09, 2018 at 05:42 PM (#5795579)
Doncic: Sort of. The idea is that if Doncic has advanced skills for his age he may not have as much improvement ahead of him as a more athletic one and done guy. I don't know if it is true.
Magic, Bird and Jordan were all ASG level or higher as rookies so I am not sure how that relates.
   3402. JC in DC Posted: December 09, 2018 at 05:45 PM (#5795580)
They all got better. Not really that hard to understand. Their games developed.
   3403. spivey Posted: December 09, 2018 at 05:53 PM (#5795583)
Those guys also were significantly older as rookies. And are some of the all-time greats.
   3404. Master of the Horse Posted: December 09, 2018 at 06:14 PM (#5795584)
If Giannis wants to go off for 50 I am ok with that
   3405. tshipman Posted: December 09, 2018 at 06:45 PM (#5795589)
I mean, it's really easy to see how Doncic gets better:

1. He cuts down on turnovers, and improves assists (like almost every good young ballhandler)
2. He gets better at team defense (like every NBA rookie).
3. He gets better at drawing fouls and shooting FTs
   3406. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 09, 2018 at 07:19 PM (#5795594)
At one point in coach/player meeting, per sources, Boylen had someone reveal that he merely planned to hold film session and let players get shots up today instead of hard practice. Did that to show players how they need to learn to trust him.


Per multiple sources, players started a group text exchange debating whether to show up at practice facility today. They ultimately decided to show up and told coaching staff they wanted players only meeting, which was followed by the meeting with coaches.
   3407. PJ Martinez Posted: December 09, 2018 at 07:41 PM (#5795600)
The Los Angeles Lakers are engaged in talks trying to acquire Phoenix Suns forward Trevor Ariza, league sources told ESPN.

The teams have been working to reach an agreement with a third team that would take on Lakers guard Kentavious Caldwell-Pope as part of a potentially larger deal, league sources said.

The Suns want to land a playmaking guard and a draft asset as the price of unloading Ariza, sources said.
   3408. Harlond Posted: December 09, 2018 at 07:56 PM (#5795602)
This guy Jack Armstrong commentating on the Raptors/Bucks game reminds me too much of Vitale and is way too homerish. Good game though. Brook Lopez killing it from behind the arc.
   3409. tshipman Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:06 PM (#5795603)
The Suns want to land a playmaking guard and a draft asset as the price of unloading Ariza, sources said.


This seems unrealistic. Is Ariza even worth what he's making this year?
   3410. GregD Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:06 PM (#5795604)
The Los Angeles Lakers are engaged in talks trying to acquire Phoenix Suns forward Trevor Ariza, league sources told ESPN.

The teams have been working to reach an agreement with a third team that would take on Lakers guard Kentavious Caldwell-Pope as part of a potentially larger deal, league sources said.

The Suns want to land a playmaking guard and a draft asset as the price of unloading Ariza, sources said.
Why? Am I being dense? Or is Ariza a pointless trade target for the Lakers?
   3411. PJ Martinez Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:12 PM (#5795605)
That was some nice movement around the perimeter for the go-ahead three by Brogdon (100-97) with 40 seconds left.
   3412. Paul D(uda) Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:13 PM (#5795606)
Kyle Lowry may need some time off.
   3413. PJ Martinez Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:21 PM (#5795608)
Bucks now 2-0 against the Raptors.
   3414. spivey Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:23 PM (#5795609)
Gritty win but a great road win. Huge plays in the last 2 minutes.

VanVleet had a great game. Lowry they said had only 4 made FG in the last 4 games. That’s crazy.
   3415. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: December 09, 2018 at 08:32 PM (#5795611)
Good game tonight. Nice to see Giannis and Kawhi in the same game.
   3416. Brian C Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:06 PM (#5795638)
This Boylen situation in Chicago is really something to behold. Not that it wasn't already clear - by my count, this is the fifth(!) coach fired during the Paxson regime - but it really lays bare the organization's MO:

1) Do some random stuff to the roster
2) Things go bad in exactly the way everyone predicted
3) Scapegoat the coach
4) Be too cheap to actually get a good replacement

What's so crazy about the Boylen thing is that they've even given up the pretense of trying to find a good replacement. They literally just promoted the other guy on the payroll, despite the fact that he's a raving lunatic and obviously completely incapable of doing the job. And they're doing it while saying their top priority is player development.

It's so obviously indefensible that it's kind of breathtaking. I lived in Dallas during the Cowboys' Chan Gailey/Dave Campo phase, and even Jerrah in those days couldn't manage this kind of naked contempt for his fan base.
   3417. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 09, 2018 at 09:42 PM (#5795679)
So from Hoiberg's perspective, was Boylen's primary role to make firing Hoiberg as painful as possible? Was he Hoiberg's Dan Quayle/Dick Cheney?
   3418. Tin Angel Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:26 PM (#5795712)
So from Hoiberg's perspective, was Boylen's primary role to make firing Hoiberg as painful as possible? Was he Hoiberg's Dan Quayle/Dick Cheney?


When the film comes out Christian Bale will make a good Jim Boylen.
   3419. maccoach57 Posted: December 09, 2018 at 10:31 PM (#5795715)
Doncic: If you look at my first post, I am not down on him. I think he will be a good player, maybe make a couple of ASGs. Not convinced that he is as special as some guys here to seem think he is, if I am reading the posts right.

Bucks/Raptors: It was a good game, and I noticed how similar the two teams are: do-everything superstar forward in his 20s, some other very good/good/useful players, newly-hired lifer coach doing some good work, cold-weather markets. I did find myself thinking about Popovich's comments on the 3: as a fan, 3s have lost the excitement factor for me that they had when they were rarer, and having grown up on Jordan and rooted for Bryant, I miss skilled mid-range play. And I still think Boston or Philadelphia can come out of the East.

Ariza: This was predictable--local guy, ex-Laker, on the worst team in the West, has a ring. Whether he can help will depend on whether he can stay in front of guys on the perimeter and whether he can hit a slightly higher % of 3s playing with James. IOW--duh--3 and D. Ariza is a long-time personal favorite, so it appeals to me as a fan.
   3420. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 09, 2018 at 11:10 PM (#5795737)
The Suns want to land a playmaking guard and a draft asset as the price of unloading Ariza, sources said.


In other words, they're asking for Ball and a first. Well, I hear it's good to dream big.
   3421. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: December 09, 2018 at 11:43 PM (#5795755)
In other words, they're asking for Ball and a first. Well, I hear it's good to dream big.


With the rumors including an unspecified third team, I have this uneasy feeling that it's the Kings and they're about to do something incredibly stupid, like pay a first-rounder for the privilege of absorbing Kentavious Caldwell-Pope into cap space.
   3422. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: December 10, 2018 at 12:35 AM (#5795772)
Ariza: This was predictable--local guy, ex-Laker, on the worst team in the West, has a ring. Whether he can help will depend on whether he can stay in front of guys on the perimeter and whether he can hit a slightly higher % of 3s playing with James. IOW--duh--3 and D. Ariza is a long-time personal favorite, so it appeals to me as a fan.
i think we're entering an era where 3+D is the minimum requirement for role players rather than the standard of competence. there are, literally, hundreds of 3+D players in the NBA, NBDL and scattered throughout europe.

the next wave is going to be guys who can dribble, pass, shoot and defend. tatum, brogdon, hill, scott, morris, trier, portis, harris, harris, gordon, green, zeller, hood, wright, dinwiddie, kuzma, green, harris, gordon, KCP, olynyk, richardson, rozier, beal, jingles, saric, hart. it won't be enough to stand in the corner. teams are going to evolve, and they're going to have 5 players on the floor who are capable of exploiting (and defending) mismatches.

the most surprising teams in the last few years all fit that mold.
2018 BOS: rozier, smart, brown, tatum, horford, morris, larkin, baynes
2015 ATL: teague, korver, carroll, millsap, horford, scott, bazemore, schroeder, sefolosha
2019 LAC: harris, gallinari, bradley, beverley, williams, SGA, LRMAM, scott, montrezl, boban, gortat
2012 PHI: holiday, turner, iguodala, thad, hawesome, lou, meeks, vucevic
2014 PHO: dragic, bledsoe, tucker, green, frye, markieff, (good?) plumlee, morris
2018 IND: collison, oladipo, bogdanovic, thad, turner, sabonis, joseph, lance!!!
2017 UTA: hill, hood, jhaughaard, jingles, favors, gobert, isojoe, mack, diaw, lyles, exum

those teams actually have a few other things in common:
-- the bulk of their rotations were between 23 and 30/ish years old.
-- no weak links on defense.
-- stretch 4s/5s
-- multiple offensive initiators
-- quality depth
-- good health
   3423. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: December 10, 2018 at 12:45 AM (#5795776)
Ariza: This was predictable--local guy, ex-Laker, on the worst team in the West, has a ring. Whether he can help will depend on whether he can stay in front of guys on the perimeter and whether he can hit a slightly higher % of 3s playing with James. IOW--duh--3 and D. Ariza is a long-time personal favorite, so it appeals to me as a fan.
trade machine: who says no?

LAL: redick, ariza, amir johnson
PHO: fultz, ingram, korkmaz, LANCE!!!
PHI: KCP, warren, josh jackson
   3424. jmurph Posted: December 10, 2018 at 10:06 AM (#5795862)
This Boylen stuff is hilarious, what an embarrassing person. Heard on the Dunc'd On podcast that he justified practicing after a back to back by saying "Pop does it all the time."

Theis was +50 in 32 minutes Saturday night, thought that was fun.
   3425. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: December 10, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5795893)
my understanding is that ariza's defensive metrics have plummeted this year. mind you, playing in phoenix will do that.
   3426. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 10, 2018 at 10:53 AM (#5795938)
This Boylen stuff is hilarious, what an embarrassing person. Heard on the Dunc'd On podcast that he justified practicing after a back to back by saying "Pop does it all the time."

He used the Pop line (also) to justify subbing out all 5 starters *twice* in the C's game. First time, I kinda get. It was like 17-0 or something; in the 2nd half, the C's outscored the Bulls 5-3 and he did it again. In addition to saying Pop does it "all the time", he said he did it so they could have a long-ass practice the next day. So he was daring the players to revolt. He's a ####### joke. Like I said, I just hope it takes down the entire FO - I can hope that since Pax was so firm on the fact that Boylen isn't an interim.
   3427. jmurph Posted: December 10, 2018 at 11:01 AM (#5795953)
He used the Pop line (also) to justify subbing out all 5 starters *twice* in the C's game.

Oh I probably screwed that up, surely he didn't reference Pop twice?
   3428. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 10, 2018 at 11:09 AM (#5795962)
He's a buffoon, and he worked for Pop; I bet he mentions him every other sentence.
   3429. The Good Face Posted: December 10, 2018 at 11:12 AM (#5795967)
Wow. How clueless do you have to be as an interim/new head coach to justify doing stuff that infuriates your players with "Well, Pop does it!". That's amazing. Part of what makes the new NBA so compelling is the sheer drama of it all. Yeah, there are amazing athletes doing incredible things on the floor, but there's this whole Professional Wrestling aspect taking place off the floor that just takes it to another level.
   3430. JC in DC Posted: December 10, 2018 at 11:20 AM (#5795970)
The most important thing in the NBA from last night: Frank was 4-4 on threes. And, got jobbed by the refs right out of the game. Have I mentioned I am fond of Frank?
   3431. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 10, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5795973)
Shams Charania @ShamsCharania 1m1 minute ago

The Denver Nuggets have signed guard Nick Young.
   3432. jmurph Posted: December 10, 2018 at 11:30 AM (#5795976)
I don't want to judge the Nuggets too harshly, basically their entire team is injured right now.
   3433. jmurph Posted: December 10, 2018 at 11:31 AM (#5795978)
The most important thing in the NBA from last night: Frank was 4-4 on threes. And, got jobbed by the refs right out of the game. Have I mentioned I am fond of Frank?

It will probably please you that I thought of you when I saw the box score (it should go without saying that I don't associate with Knicks fans in REAL LIFE.)
   3434. JC in DC Posted: December 10, 2018 at 11:35 AM (#5795980)
It will probably please you that I thought of you when I saw the box score (it should go without saying that I don't associate with Knicks fans in REAL LIFE.)

My nightmare consists of the Knicks giving up on him, and watching him win three titles over the next 8 years with an elderly Pops-run Spurs team. THE KID CAN PLAY. Enough ####### around with Mudiay et al. (I think, btw, the Jimi Hezonja Experience is over. Thank God.)
   3435. jmurph Posted: December 10, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5795989)
And speaking of the Knicks, did anyone post this yet?
   3436. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 10, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5796024)
That is a bizarre, fascinating thing, but suddenly I really want to know who noticed it and was able to run down the specifics. I hadn't thought about the Menendez brothers since the mid-90s.
   3437. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: December 10, 2018 at 12:34 PM (#5796030)
And speaking of the Knicks, did anyone post this yet?
this is a common misconception, but those aren't the menendez brothers; it's just patrick bateman and eric trump.
   3438. Davo cant be eatin thirty hot dogs every day Posted: December 10, 2018 at 01:03 PM (#5796060)
   3439. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 10, 2018 at 01:24 PM (#5796083)
K.C. Johnson @KCJHoop 5m5 minutes ago

Jim Boylen: “Yesterday was a blessing for where we have to go.”

K.C. Johnson @KCJHoop 59s60 seconds ago

Boylen: “My job is to push players out of their comfort zone. That’s what the Reinsdorfs are paying me for.”

Mike McGraw @McGrawDHBulls 2m2 minutes ago

Boylen: “It’s going to be rough for a while.” #Bulls


ugh
   3440. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: December 10, 2018 at 01:38 PM (#5796107)
K.C. Johnson @KCJHoop 59s60 seconds ago

Boylen: “My job is to push players out of their comfort zone. That’s what the Reinsdorfs are paying me for.”

huh. i guess jeff gillooly changed his name to jim boylen.
   3441. spivey Posted: December 10, 2018 at 02:07 PM (#5796136)
The Boylen stuff is amazing. Some of the player quotes in the first week were gold, as well. My favorite I read in one of the write-ups I read last night was, essentially:

Reporter: "You don't see see the 5-man substitution very often, so..."
LaVine: *cuts reporter off* "No, you don't"
   3442. jmurph Posted: December 10, 2018 at 02:12 PM (#5796140)
Just for some balance, this collection of guys who have achieved literally nothing in the NBA maybe need to reign it in a bit, too.

EDIT: And the front office. Just a full volume "shhhhhhhhhhhhhhh" to the entire Bulls situation.
   3443. spivey Posted: December 10, 2018 at 02:19 PM (#5796146)
Yeah, I mean, Jabari Parker does need to run suicides. That's obvious. I'm generally inclined to side with the players, though. Boylen seems well out of his depth here.
   3444. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: December 10, 2018 at 02:21 PM (#5796149)
Theis was +50 in 32 minutes Saturday night, thought that was fun.
This got me thinking, so I looked up the list of highest single-game plus/minus scores. With a handful of exceptions, the top of the list is populated by a fascinating archetype: role players good enough to be part of a huge run, but bad enough to stay on the floor in garbage time:

Net
Player                    Date   MP PTS
Luc Mbah a Moute    2017
-11-22 25.7 +57
Joe Smith           2001
-11-08 27.0 +52
Jeremy Lamb         2018
-03-22 26.0 +51
Daniel Theis        2018
-12-08 32.3 +50
Wally Szczerbiak    2001
-11-08 21.5 +50
Jared Jeffries      2002
-10-31 29.1 +50
Tyronn Lue          2002
-10-31 34.5 +49
Amare Stoudemire    2009
-02-02 27.6 +49
Ronnie Brewer       2012
-01-01 34.9 +48
Chauncey Billups    2008
-12-02 31.9 +48
Terrell Brandon     2001
-11-08 23.3 +48
Shelvin Mack        2016
-03-28 29.2 +48
Kemba Walker        2018
-03-22 27.9 +47
Marvin Williams     2018
-03-22 27.9 +47
Chris Paul          2018
-02-03 27.1 +47
Darren Collison     2012
-02-19 29.1 +47
Amare Stoudemire    2007
-01-21 27.7 +47
Mark Jackson        2000
-11-07 33.2 +46
Rasho Nesterovic    2001
-11-08 23.0 +46
Mehmet Okur         2003
-01-31 27.5 +46 

source

I find this list really poignant somehow.
   3445. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 10, 2018 at 02:23 PM (#5796151)
Yeah, I've never had any sympathy for the "the beatings will continue until morale improves" school of leadership, but I guess I can see Boylen's tack here as an over-the-top way to try to get Zach Levine and Jabari Parker to commit to defense. I don't think it has any chance of working and is guaranteed to continue to alienate the players, but if Hoiberg was too easy-going this is a pretty predictable overcorrection.
   3446. jmurph Posted: December 10, 2018 at 02:24 PM (#5796152)
Yeah, I mean, Jabari Parker does need to run suicides. That's obvious. I'm generally inclined to side with the players, though. Boylen seems well out of his depth here.

Absolutely agree. When was the last time the interim was also fired in-season? Seems like the Suns or Cavs must have accomplished that at some point.
   3447. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 10, 2018 at 02:28 PM (#5796157)
[3444] I got curious about the Timberwolves game on 2011-11-07, as it has four of the players on that list (Joe Smith +52/Szczerbiak +50/Terrell Brandon +48/Rasho Nesterovic +46). KG was at +44, just off the bottom of the list, completing the quintet that clearly had the big run in a 127-74 win. Funny details are that (a) it was over the Bulls, and (b) Fred Hoiberg had a -25 in 17 minutes. Sadly Jim Boylen was an assistant coach in Indiana that year, not on either side of the game.
   3448. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: December 10, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5796165)
Rasho Nesterovic! That's a name I've not heard in many a year.
   3449. Brian C Posted: December 10, 2018 at 03:02 PM (#5796192)
Yeah, I've never had any sympathy for the "the beatings will continue until morale improves" school of leadership, but I guess I can see Boylen's tack here as an over-the-top way to try to get Zach Levine and Jabari Parker to commit to defense. I don't think it has any chance of working and is guaranteed to continue to alienate the players, but if Hoiberg was too easy-going this is a pretty predictable overcorrection.

Getting a drill-sergeant type in there might have been a predictable overcorrection, but getting a preening nobody whose main interest seems to be to become a wrestling heel really was not.

Again, the worst aspect to all this is that the Bulls are operating with an alleged focus on player development. Getting Jabari Parker to focus on defense is comically beside the point.

And the FO has no one to blame but themselves if Levine and Parker can't play defense anyway. It's not like either of those guys were rock-solid defenders in the past who slacked off under Hoiberg - they've always been terrible defenders and the FO brought 'em in anyway, only to be dissatisfied with the utterly predictable (and unanimously predicted) results. It's just another example of the FO's obsession with a) fitting square pegs in round holes, and b) having no plan and thus always wanting whatever it is that they haven't got.
   3450. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 10, 2018 at 03:14 PM (#5796201)
Absolutely agree. When was the last time the interim was also fired in-season? Seems like the Suns or Cavs must have accomplished that at some point.

Remember, he's not the interim. He's the actual, permanent coach (because Jerry isn't going to pay for 3 coaches, not that Boylen is getting paid HC money). Again, please bring down this FO. I like Lavine just fine, but this if chucklefuck ##### up Markkanen or Carter, so help me god...


Chicago Bulls players contacted the National Basketball Players Association on Sunday because of what they felt were extreme tactics by new head coach Jim Boylen, league sources told Yahoo Sports, the culmination of a growing divide between the coach and his players.

After a close win over the Oklahoma City Thunder on Friday and a 56-point rout Saturday night by the Boston Celtics, Boylen, finishing his first week as head coach, called for a Sunday practice — an NBA protocol no-no with the Bulls just completing a back-to-back.

After taking the helm from fired coach Fred Hoiberg on Monday, Boylen held three two-and-a-half-hour practices in his first week that included extra wind sprints and players doing military-style pushups. Calling for another lengthy practice after the back-to-back led to a near-mutiny and caused the players to reach out to the union, sources said.

Boylen had already gotten under his players’ skin by issuing the ultimate indignity: subbing out all five players on the floor twice in Saturday’s loss. In the first half, the Bulls fell behind 17-0, so the full lineup change was understandable.

...

Following Boylen’s debut Tuesday in a losing effort to the Indiana Pacers, he went against the usual postgame protocol by forcing the team to watch film while their emotions were still running high. It is customary to watch film the next day after everyone, including coaches, has decompressed and is ready to be critiqued.

Players felt like they were being treated like high school athletes and those feelings of disrespect escalated when Boylen told the media the players needed to get in better shape, sources said.


more
   3451. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: December 10, 2018 at 03:20 PM (#5796205)
On one hand, I hate (like poison) the "if you don't want to be treated like a child, act like an adult" leadership style Boylen seems to be pursuing. Insulting and degrading a bunch of adult human professionals is a despicable and generally counterproductive motivation technique; and if he's just acting tough for headlines or for his bosses, that's somehow even worse.

On the other hand, this did happen.
   3452. spivey Posted: December 10, 2018 at 03:25 PM (#5796208)
Zach Lavine may be the new Gordy Heyward.
   3453. spivey Posted: December 10, 2018 at 03:28 PM (#5796211)
On one hand, I hate (like poison) the "if you don't want to be treated like a child, act like an adult" leadership style Boylen seems to be pursuing. Insulting and degrading a bunch of adult human professionals is a despicable and generally counterproductive motivation technique; and if he's just acting tough for headlines or for his bosses, that's somehow even worse.

On the other hand, this did happen.


That's bad. I guess that's why teams don't often give 21 minutes of straight run to the end of their bench.
   3454. maccoach57 Posted: December 10, 2018 at 03:32 PM (#5796216)
Between Boylen and Harold Baines, this is kind of "Jerry Reinsdorf Day" here on BTF.
   3455. maccoach57 Posted: December 10, 2018 at 03:35 PM (#5796219)
my understanding is that ariza's defensive metrics have plummeted this year. mind you, playing in phoenix will do that.


Indeed. As noted, I love Ariza, but I actually don't know if he would help at all. He is a 33-year-old role player. Chandler is a 36-year-old role player who does help the team, but being 7'2" kind of makes it easier.
   3456. maccoach57 Posted: December 10, 2018 at 03:39 PM (#5796227)
I doubt this crowd cares much, but I have seen a few stories noting that tonight will be the last time that Wade and James play against one another, unless the East names Wade an honorary All-Star or something.
   3457. JL72 Posted: December 10, 2018 at 03:41 PM (#5796229)
There are a lot of things that Boylen appears to be getting wrong so far. And lots of reasons for the players to be angry.

But if the players don't like this:

Boylen had already gotten under his players’ skin by issuing the ultimate indignity: subbing out all five players on the floor twice in Saturday’s loss. In the first half, the Bulls fell behind 17-0, so the full lineup change was understandable.


perhaps they should not lose by 55 points.
   3458. The Good Face Posted: December 10, 2018 at 03:41 PM (#5796231)
On one hand, I hate (like poison) the "if you don't want to be treated like a child, act like an adult" leadership style Boylen seems to be pursuing. Insulting and degrading a bunch of adult human professionals is a despicable and generally counterproductive motivation technique; and if he's just acting tough for headlines or for his bosses, that's somehow even worse.

On the other hand, this did happen.


That's... not great. But shit like that wasn't happening when Hoiberg was running the team. They played bad defense, yes, but that's because the front office signed a bunch of guys that suck at defense. That clip just looked like guys sending a huge, "Fuck you" message to the coach.
   3459. billyshears Posted: December 10, 2018 at 03:43 PM (#5796232)
In viewing any coach at a reasonably high level, the line between "exacting and uncompromising with high standards" and "pompous, self-righteous gasbag" can be hard to spot. Often, the only difference between the two is whether a pompous, self-righteous gasbag is charismatic enough to convince the players and media that he is merely exacting and uncompromising with high standards (actually knowing what one is doing helps too). That's a really tough needle to thread though. Certain older coaches have that act grandfathered in, but I'm not sure any younger/newer coaches can pull it off.
   3460. jmurph Posted: December 10, 2018 at 03:49 PM (#5796236)
Oooh maybe this is a galaxy brain attempt by GarPax to get LaVine to demand a trade? In which case, brilliant.
   3461. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 10, 2018 at 03:49 PM (#5796237)
That's... not great. But #### like that wasn't happening when Hoiberg was running the team. They played bad defense, yes, but that's because the front office signed a bunch of guys that suck at defense. That clip just looked like guys sending a huge, \"#### you" message to the coach.

Right, context matters. That was with 3 mins left, down by 50, and those guys had all been out there getting the asses absolutely stomped for nearly 20 minutes straight.
   3462. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 10, 2018 at 03:55 PM (#5796245)
Certain older coaches have that act grandfathered in, but I'm not sure any younger/newer coaches can pull it off.

I think this is correct but backwards. You have to earn the right to act like that, and coming in the door with guns blazing is exactly the wrong way to go about it.
   3463. spivey Posted: December 10, 2018 at 03:57 PM (#5796246)
But if the players don't like this:

Boylen had already gotten under his players’ skin by issuing the ultimate indignity: subbing out all five players on the floor twice in Saturday’s loss. In the first half, the Bulls fell behind 17-0, so the full lineup change was understandable.


perhaps they should not lose by 55 points.


I mean, I see what you're saying, and they were getting stomped regardless - they're not a good team. But they were "only" losing by 20-odd points at time of the second sub-out. They lost by 55 precisely because of Boylen.
   3464. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 10, 2018 at 04:01 PM (#5796253)
I mean, I see what you're saying, and they were getting stomped regardless - they're not a good team. But they were "only" losing by 20-odd points at time of the second sub-out. They lost by 55 precisely because of Boylen.

And to reiterate, the 2nd mass substituting was only like 3 mins into the 2nd half, and the C's were outscoring the Bulls 5-3. It was absolutely garbage, and done purely to show up the players, IMO. Then after the game, he says he did it so he can have a practice the next day - he didn't want the starters too tired in a sure loss. Then claims the following day, but only after the players revolted, he really wasn't going to have practice and that they need to trust him not to do something stupid like that (although he'd already done that stupid thing of practicing in non-practice situations twice in his one+ week on the job).
   3465. The Good Face Posted: December 10, 2018 at 04:03 PM (#5796256)
Right, context matters. That was with 3 mins left, down by 50, and those guys had all been out there getting the asses absolutely stomped for nearly 20 minutes straight.


Ouch. That's the basketball equivalent of leaving your 5th starter in for 140 pitches and then complaining when he starts delivering nothing but 79mph meatballs.

   3466. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: December 10, 2018 at 04:08 PM (#5796260)
Boylen is making Thibs look good in comparison.
   3467. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: December 10, 2018 at 04:17 PM (#5796266)
Would any team trade anything good for Andre Drummond at this point? Asking for a friend.
   3468. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: December 10, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5796279)
And speaking of the Knicks, did anyone post this yet?


Didn't they live in California: what in the world are they doing at a Knicks game? Unless.....guys, you don't suppose they were guests of Mark Jackson?
   3469. Fourth True Outcome Posted: December 10, 2018 at 04:42 PM (#5796287)
The pic made me look them up on wikipedia, which informed me that they moved to Calabasas (wonder if they knew the Kardashians) when the boys were teens, having lived in NJ outside of NYC until then, and while living large after the murders one of them bought a wings restaurant in NJ, so they must have been bicoastal in their brief, crazed freedom. (So they were probably guests of Mark Jackson, for sure.)
   3470. Master of the Horse Posted: December 10, 2018 at 04:48 PM (#5796291)
There are a lot of ###### up situations across the NBA right now. Fultz in Philly. Phoenix. Chicago. Cleveland. And are the Warriors all friends again?
   3471. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: December 10, 2018 at 04:48 PM (#5796292)
I can fault Mark Jackson for many things, but not for trying to get to know some fun, young chicken wing entrepreneurs.
   3472. Tin Angel Posted: December 10, 2018 at 04:49 PM (#5796293)
Monte Poole @MontePooleNBCS

The Boogie Plan:
-DeMarcus Cousins will practice with G-League @Warriors, beginning Monday and several times this week. Next game is Friday in Santa Cruz.
-Likely will join NBA team Thursday for trip to Sac.
-Return date for actual game still TBD.


Sounds like Boogie will be back soon...surprising, I thought when they signed him the talk was he'd be back after the all star break at the earliest.
   3473. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: December 10, 2018 at 04:58 PM (#5796299)
Would any team trade anything good for Andre Drummond at this point? Asking for a friend.


Hey Pistons, how would you like TWO shiny centers (Zeller and Biyombo) to replace that ONE hairy center you've got?

I think Drummond is good. His FT has gone from near-unplayable to merely bad, although his FG% is at a career low so far (so are his FG attempts). The last two seasons, his DRTG on BB-Ref has led the league, I don't know if that means anything. Awesome rebounder, obviously.
   3474. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: December 10, 2018 at 06:59 PM (#5796353)
Boylen said he originally planned hard practice in wake of Celtics' loss because he was "upset we weren't playing well" but changed his mind because he felt meeting was more productive. Also, he said he won't give players practice plan in advance because he wants strong mindset


Geez.
   3475. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 10, 2018 at 07:06 PM (#5796357)
In viewing any coach at a reasonably high level, the line between "exacting and uncompromising with high standards" and "pompous, self-righteous gasbag" can be hard to spot. Often, the only difference between the two is whether a pompous, self-righteous gasbag is charismatic enough to convince the players and media that he is merely exacting and uncompromising with high standards (actually knowing what one is doing helps too). That's a really tough needle to thread though. Certain older coaches have that act grandfathered in, but I'm not sure any younger/newer coaches can pull it off.


This approach can still work at the amateur level, but at the pro level I think it stopped working altogether at the moment that players (even role players) began to be paid more money than the coach. You can't treat a guy who makes more money than you do disrespectfully; he's going to tell you to go #### yourself.

You can only get away with behaving like a tyrant if you actually have a tyrant's power.
   3476. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: December 10, 2018 at 07:07 PM (#5796358)
Wrong thread.
   3477. Tin Angel Posted: December 10, 2018 at 07:19 PM (#5796361)
This approach can still work at the amateur level, but at the pro level I think it stopped working altogether at the moment that players (even role players) began to be paid more money than the coach. You can't treat a guy who makes more money than you do disrespectfully; he's going to tell you to go #### yourself.


This, not to mention a white dude in his 50's telling black kids in their 20's that they are weak, not working hard enough, and he needs to teach them to be "strong-minded." And telling that to the media. That is...not going to work nowadays.
   3478. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: December 10, 2018 at 07:23 PM (#5796363)
BTW, I for one actually am interested in the final LeBron-Wade game (for cultural reasons, not basketball ones). That friendship and more generally the chumminess around the league seems unique to the modern NBA (with ensuing get off my lawn takes). At the risk of getting all Simmonsy / cultural, what do you guys think is the main cause of it? I can think of a few reasons why NBA players (on different teams) might be friendlier than in the past, like:

1) the rise of AAU -- more of these people know each other from earlier on, well before they became pro players
2) more money in the game -- you don't need to beat the pants off other players to make a livelihood (and at the upper echelon, you can't make more money)
3) increased location flexibility due to ease of travel and money -- many of these players live in similar places / train together / etc in the offseason
4) they were always friendly -- we just didn't know about it and now we do (due to social media and other causes)
5) increased player movement -- more people around the league who are your former teammates, and who might be your future ones so you want to stay reasonably friendly
   3479. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: December 10, 2018 at 07:27 PM (#5796365)
As a follow up to [3444], here are the highest individual +/- recorded in a loss:

Player                      Date   MP +/-
Darko Milicic         2010-02-21 18.9 +35
Kyle Korver           2016
-04-01 41.1 +33
Marvin Williams       2006
-04-02 26.5 +31
DAngelo Russell       2016
-01-07 28.7 +29
Robert Traylor        2003
-01-06 19.8 +28
J
.JBarea            2018-10-31 25.0 +28
Jae Crowder           2013
-01-25 26.4 +28
Tyler Zeller          2013
-03-20 23.2 +28
Bismack Biyombo       2012
-12-18 32.8 +27
Luke Babbitt          2013
-01-19 24.2 +27 
source

Darko!
   3480. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: December 10, 2018 at 07:30 PM (#5796366)
Also: Kyle Korver sitting at a +33 in over 41 minutes and they lose? Even given that game went to overtime, that was an astonishingly efficient bed-shitting by that Hawks bench.
   3481. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 10, 2018 at 07:52 PM (#5796376)
[3478] There's a chicken-or-egg question in this, but probably the serious leaguewide crackdown on fighting and hard fouling that began in earnest in the late 1990s and has continued through today has something to do with it, too.
   3482. PJ Martinez Posted: December 10, 2018 at 08:19 PM (#5796384)
"The Rockets have expressed exploratory interest in acquiring JR Smith, according to league sources. Smith is currently on hiatus from the Cavaliers as Cleveland seeks a new home for the veteran shooting guard via trade"
   3483. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: December 10, 2018 at 08:40 PM (#5796389)
The final piece!
   3484. It's TFTIO's Monster, Actually Posted: December 10, 2018 at 09:19 PM (#5796408)
These Bucks jerseys are a nightmare.
   3485. spivey Posted: December 10, 2018 at 09:44 PM (#5796422)
The Pelicans play quite sloppy, on both ends. It’s tough to watch knowing how much talent they have. They need a good defensive wing badly, however.
   3486. spivey Posted: December 10, 2018 at 09:48 PM (#5796423)
Cleveland is just terrible
   3487. SteveF Posted: December 10, 2018 at 09:49 PM (#5796425)
I don't think the Pelicans make the playoffs. The West is absolutely brutal this year. It's not as top heavy as in some past years, but is it ever middle heavy. You're going to have to be much better than usual to get that 8th seed, even by typical western conference standards.
   3488. JC in DC Posted: December 10, 2018 at 09:53 PM (#5796427)
spivey and Steve: I was just coming here to post about the Pelicans. What happened to them? They started off with some promise, didn't they? And here they are, 14-15, seemingly again stuck in mud.
   3489. spivey Posted: December 10, 2018 at 09:56 PM (#5796428)
DJ Wilson’s nba career may have ended with this trash garbage time.
   3490. SteveF Posted: December 10, 2018 at 10:00 PM (#5796429)
I think Spivey has the meat of it. They don't stop penetration. They badly need a wing defender, maybe two. Teams can get whatever they want against them.
   3491. PJ Martinez Posted: December 10, 2018 at 10:11 PM (#5796431)
Yeah, Boston seemed to get into the paint against New Orleans pretty much whenever they wanted. And they were missing Irving and Hayward, as well as Horford and Baynes. Still won by 13. Pelicans looked listless at times.
   3492. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: December 10, 2018 at 11:15 PM (#5796442)
Wes Johnson is supposed to be a good defender, right? The numbers seem to bear that out, and presumably everyone in the game also thinks he's good since he's had a 10 year career while being epically terrible on offense.

If you could switch him and E'Twaun Moore on one side of the ball, you'd have a stellar 3 and D guy, and a guy who wouldn't be able to make it in the G League.
   3493. tshipman Posted: December 11, 2018 at 12:46 AM (#5796457)
This trash talk between LeBron and Wade in the 4th quarter is *really* entertaining.
   3494. Russlan thinks deGrom is da bomb Posted: December 11, 2018 at 01:22 AM (#5796458)
How good is Anthony Davis really? Statistically, he has an argument for being on the shortlist of best players in the NBA. I don't watch him enough to comment. Why aren't the Pelicans better?
   3495. tshipman Posted: December 11, 2018 at 01:36 AM (#5796459)
How good is Anthony Davis really? Statistically, he has an argument for being on the shortlist of best players in the NBA. I don't watch him enough to comment. Why aren't the Pelicans better?


2018-19 Regular Season

On Court +9.0 ORtg
Off Court -11.8 ORtg
NET +20.8
   3496. maccoach57 Posted: December 11, 2018 at 02:15 AM (#5796463)
New Orleans: They are very weak 5-10, do not have any good defensive players other than Davis, and Gentry does not appear to be an especially good coach.

James/Wade: There are a lot of stories about it today. Apparently they met during the 03 draft cycle. I also think that elite players probably bond playing for Team USA. The Beijing team, the one that brought the Gold back in 2008 after the 2004 Bronze, seems to have been a serious bonding experience for Wade/Bosh/James/Paul/Anthony. Kobe Bryant was the Captain of that team. Some of the other names look odd now: Tayshaun Prince, Carlos Boozer, Dwight Howard, Michael Redd. Jason Kidd and Deron Williams were the other two.
   3497. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: December 11, 2018 at 09:13 AM (#5796497)
Oklahoma City is built around an overwhelming amount of length and athleticism. After getting off to an 0-3 start, it doubled down on both its strengths and weaknesses by benching Patrick Patterson for Jerami Grant
...
A frontcourt of Grant, Steven Adams, and Paul George stifles opposing teams, regardless of who the point guard is. That trio has a net rating of plus-13 in 373 minutes with Westbrook and plus-14 in 313 minutes with Schröder.
The Thunder have the no. 1 rated defense in the league because they’ve eliminated most of their weak links. The normal offensive playbook doesn’t work against them
The Thunder also signed Nerlens Noel (24) to be their backup center
link



...i'm just gonna take a moment to point out that when sam hinkie was fired, the sixers had embiid, noel, grant, covington and simmons.
   3498. spivey Posted: December 11, 2018 at 09:16 AM (#5796500)
This, not to mention a white dude in his 50's telling black kids in their 20's that they are weak, not working hard enough, and he needs to teach them to be "strong-minded." And telling that to the media. That is...not going to work nowadays.


I think the task master coach still is alive and well, I think the issues here are: you have to earn that respect, your best/most veteran players have to take that type of coaching (having an almost entirely young team, especially of players that don't play hard on defense doesn't help here), and I think people are more willing to put in the hard work if they view it as part of a grander plan. All of the quotes I've seen suggests that Boylen doesn't know what the #### he's doing.

But Thibs is still a taskmaster, and it seems like most of his grief is from fans rather than players. Pop, too, of course has some elements of this, though you have to have a good balance of encouragement and discipline and it's unclear Boylen has that. Looking at other sports - Guardiola is considered the unquestioned best coach in the world and is known for demanding extreme fitness of his team as well as being very controlling.
   3499. spivey Posted: December 11, 2018 at 09:24 AM (#5796512)
Those Davis on/off numbers are damning. Even with him on the court, they'll be running up and down the court and guys will be taking 3s from way behind the line or taking semi-contested running layups before Davis has even touched the ball. They do that kind of stuff a lot, and I get they're a team built on pace but I feel like they're limiting their efficiency.

Beyond that, their bench is really quite awful. And of their top 5, there's not a lot of defense from the 3-5 guys either, and Mirotic/Randle both fit with Davis ok I think, but still have some overlap in terms of how they fit for overall roster construction.

Edit: The other thing is we all assumed that the Pelicans opening night win over the Rockets would be one of the signature wins of the season. It doesn't look like a big deal anymore, and that changes some of the luster of their 4-0 start imo.
   3500. The Good Face Posted: December 11, 2018 at 09:41 AM (#5796525)
I think the task master coach still is alive and well, I think the issues here are: you have to earn that respect, your best/most veteran players have to take that type of coaching (having an almost entirely young team, especially of players that don't play hard on defense doesn't help here), and I think people are more willing to put in the hard work if they view it as part of a grander plan. All of the quotes I've seen suggests that Boylen doesn't know what the #### he's doing.


You can be that kind of guy, but you either need an overwhelmingly strong personality such that you just intimidate/charm guys into doing what you want and/or you need a tremendous amount of credibility. Pop was fortunate in that he got a young Tim Duncan who was willing to be coached hard, which led to decades of success, which in turn led to immense credibility. Boylen doesn't appear to have any of that stuff going for him.
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