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Friday, October 05, 2018

OT - NBA Thread (2018-19 season kickoff edition)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, none of whom knew the old thread would get closed, thus detracting from what this site is really about: the baseball playoffs, maybe?

Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 05, 2018 at 03:43 PM | 2479 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   501. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 16, 2018 at 01:47 PM (#5767745)
I think if Milwaukee does crack 50 wins then Giannis probably gets the MVP.
   502. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 01:48 PM (#5767750)
#499, if the Spurs comfortably make the playoffs the Coach of the Year should be Pop. It should be renamed for him if that happens.
   503. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 16, 2018 at 02:00 PM (#5767758)
I look over the over-unders and the season predictions (both here and around the internet) and I find myself wondering if we're adequately adjusting for LeBron's move to the Western Conference.

What I mean is, 15-20 wins moved from the Cavaliers to the Lakers. Most predictions agree this will be the case, Cleveland will be around 15-20 wins worse than last year (50 wins to 30-35) and the Lakers will be around 15-20 wins better (35 wins to 50-55).

The only thing is, Cleveland doesn't play the Lakers 20 times. What's actually going to happen is that the Eastern Conference in general will gain 10-15 wins at Cleveland's expense, and the Western Conference in general will lose 10-15 wins to the Lakers' benefit. And mostly the shift will be concentrated among the teams in the middle, because Boston and Toronto were already beating Cleveland more often than not, and Atlanta and Orlando are still worse than Cleveland now and will still lose.

Or to use a concrete example, last year the Lakers were a combined 1-15 against Utah, Portland, San Antonio, and Dallas. They'll be more like 9-7 against them this year.
   504. GordonShumway Posted: October 16, 2018 at 02:07 PM (#5767767)
Has any superstar player ever become a good coach, in any sport? Wayne Gretzky was an awful coach, too.


Tris Speaker, Johan Cruyff, John Wooden.
   505. JJ1986 Posted: October 16, 2018 at 02:13 PM (#5767771)
I look over the over-unders and the season predictions (both here and around the internet) and I find myself wondering if we're adequately adjusting for LeBron's move to the Western Conference.
Teams play a pretty decent percent of their games against the other conference. If the Lakers are 15 games better, that's like 9.5 more wins against the West and 5.5 more against the East. The Cavs are the same in reverse, so it's about a 4 game swing split among 14 teams or a third of a game per team. Even if you figure it's all coming from the middle, it's around a half-a-game swing for the middle teams in each conference. (I think I did that right.)
   506. aberg Posted: October 16, 2018 at 02:46 PM (#5767796)
Johan Cruyff


Wasn't even thinking of soccer, but Guardiola belongs on the list too.
   507. PASTE, Now with Extra Pitch and Extra Stamina Posted: October 16, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5767802)
And Zidane (the Larry Bird of European soccer?), but yeah, I wasn't thinking of soccer.

But generally, I take the point: I should have asked if any superstar players *in the last 50 years* have become good coaches. :)

Good point, JJ. Thanks.
   508. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:53 PM (#5767887)
East:
1. BOS
2. TOR
3. PHI
4. MIL
5. IND
6. MIA
7. WAS
8. CLE
9. CHA
10. DET
11. CHI
12. ORL
13. BRK
14. ATL
15. NYK


West:
1. GSW
2. UTA
3. HOU
4. DEN
5. LAL
6. OKC
7. NOP
8. POR
9. SAS
10. MEM
11. DAL
12. LAC
13. MIN
14. PHO
15. SAC

BOS over GSW (Do I think this is the most likely outcome? I don't care if I think this is the most likely outcome.)

MVP: Giannis
ROY: Doncic
COY: Snyder

--------

Other general thoughts before the season starts:
- I agree with basically every point raised for and against Milwaukie's odds this season, but I weight the pros and cons optimistically for the team. I think they'll take a mini leap and Giannis will ride that to the MVP, with or without an improved jumpshot.
- I think Houston's window is much less open than it was last year, though their top-end talent is so good that, given health, they will remain a darkhorse contender at worst. But their defense (which was a big part of their incredible season last year) will slip, and I think that matters. Capela may make me eat my words, but that's how I see it at the outset of the season.
- I think Toronto will ride their depth to a lot of wins and I think Kawhi makes them much more dangerous in the postseason. I still don't quite believe in them (how will Lowry age? Will their outstanding good health continue? Does their big rotation fully make sense if Ibaka can't get it done at the 5 in the postseason?).
- It's hard to gauge Memphis, now with Conley and Gasol back. It's hard to gauge Brooklyn, who has a little bit of intriguing young talent (not THAT much, though), a ton of cap space and a huge market to wave at FAs... and, finally, incentive to tank. I'm not confident in how I ordered the bottom of the East or seeds 4-12 in the West.

Hallelujah, the NBA is back.
   509. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:58 PM (#5767895)
How high is your bar for superstar or good coach? Paul Molitor made the HOF and won AL MoTY last year, but I can envision his falling short on either count, depending on your standards.
   510. Just TFTIO Posted: October 16, 2018 at 03:59 PM (#5767899)
Hallelujah, the NBA is back.

Yes, indeed.
   511. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:00 PM (#5767900)
NBA redditors may have seen this already, but there's a guy there who puts together a really cool free NBA almanac every year. Here's a non-Google drive link to it - I might post the other link later as well.
   512. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:08 PM (#5767910)
That almanac is really well done.
   513. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:46 PM (#5767949)
Has any superstar player ever become a good coach, in any sport? Wayne Gretzky was an awful coach, too.
cael sanderson is the greatest american wrestler in the last 50 years, and he's coached penn state to 7 of the last 8 national titles.

other great wrestler/great coach combos: dan gable, john smith.
   514. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 16, 2018 at 04:47 PM (#5767950)
This is a OK article - 2018-19 Season Preview Roundtable Part 1: All Things Jimmy

And really I don't think we have talked enough about Jimmy Butler and the Wolves ;)
   515. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: October 16, 2018 at 05:23 PM (#5768002)
I agree with basically every point raised for and against Milwaukie's odds this season, but I weight the pros and cons optimistically for the team
To elaborate slightly: I think Lopez will help a lot and I think Middleton will have a much more efficient year offensively due almost entirely to shifting his shot selection. From Cleaning the Glass($):
Khris Middleton has taken 30% of his shots from three and over 50% from midrange for four years running. That’s not ideal shot distribution. He’s been efficient because he’s such a good shooter from midrange and three that it works out. But this preseason, over half of his attempts have come from three, and if that is close to what it will look like in the regular season, he could have an incredibly efficient year with the shots he’s going to get.
They've added shooters; I think that the shooters they already had will be play up in an updated scheme; I think that those two things will give Giannis more space, making him more deadly, pulling additional attention, which will help the shooters, and around it goes in a virtuous circle. I don't think any of this is due to some special genius of Budenholzer. Que sera sera, but I buy the "a poor man's version of the Jackson -> Kerr transition" narrative.
   516. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 16, 2018 at 06:58 PM (#5768107)
   517. aberg Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:27 PM (#5768141)
other great wrestler/great coach combos: dan gable, john smith.


Harley Race was a great wrestler and a great manager, which is kind of like being a coach.
   518. PJ Martinez Posted: October 16, 2018 at 07:41 PM (#5768149)
KG on Live TV on T-Wolves owner Glen Taylor: "He doesn't know sh*t about basketball"
   519. toratoratora Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:24 PM (#5768219)
Has any superstar player ever become a good coach, in any sport?

John McGraw was a pretty famous player who was also really good.
   520. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:39 PM (#5768257)
Gordon Hayward has officially had his best season as a Boston Celtic.
   521. Just TFTIO Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:44 PM (#5768266)
Gordon Hayward has officially had his best season as a Boston Celtic

I don’t like Boston, or Gilbert Hardwer, but I admit that my heart has been in my throat this whole game, so far.
   522. PJ Martinez Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:46 PM (#5768268)
Simmons is such a freight train when he finds a lane to the basket. LeBron-esque.
   523. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:50 PM (#5768274)
Simmons is such a freight train when he finds a lane to the basket. LeBron-esque
His athleticism and handle would play at any size, but he's ####### SIX FOOT TEN.
   524. SteveF Posted: October 16, 2018 at 08:59 PM (#5768279)
For the first game of the year, it looks like it's the players' first game of the year.
   525. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 09:23 PM (#5768299)
Is Kyrie nursing an injury?
   526. PJ Martinez Posted: October 16, 2018 at 09:35 PM (#5768307)
Is Kyrie nursing an injury?
I haven't seen any reporting to that effect, for what it's worth.
   527. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: October 16, 2018 at 09:54 PM (#5768328)
I haven't seen any reporting to that effect, for what it's worth.


Given his history I'd expect him to be playing with soreness the rest of his career in his knee. Patella problems don't tend to self heal or get better when you're running around so much on hard wood.

In other news, it appears that Fultz still isn't very good. A team worst -16 in 24 minutes tonight, by far the worst of any of their starters.

For the first game of the year, it looks like it's the players' first game of the year.


I'm curious to see if there's a hangover from the shorter preseason, and any effect it will have on rest/injuries down the stretch.
   528. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 09:57 PM (#5768336)
The Sixers are uniquely frustrating (if you're cheering for them) in that the reasons they're losing/having a bad game are so plainly obvious.
   529. SteveF Posted: October 16, 2018 at 10:09 PM (#5768354)
Embiid to the graveyard
   530. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: October 16, 2018 at 10:11 PM (#5768355)
*Grabs cane* THAT'S NOT A DUNK! Honestly, Jaylen Brown should be ashamed for staring down a guy who just blocked his shot. We might as well start doing three goggles after bank shot 3s.
   531. PJ Martinez Posted: October 16, 2018 at 10:15 PM (#5768357)
The staredown was a bit much, perhaps, given the play, but I assume it was in response to lots of Embiid trash-talking (same goes for Tatum staring at Embiid after that bank-shot long two he hit over him). Also, I think he gets some credit for pushing the ball past the big guy through the rim, however awkwardly.
   532. jmurph Posted: October 16, 2018 at 10:17 PM (#5768359)
I consider it a personal gift from the Sixers organization that their halfcourt offense continues to be designed to get extremely difficult shots for JJ Redick.
   533. MHS Posted: October 16, 2018 at 10:24 PM (#5768366)
I don’t know how to react to that game. Underwhelmed by the 76’ers. Awed by moments of Simmons and Tatum. Amazed at how good the Celtics played despite Kyrie playing his worst game as a pro.

The 76’ers offense is bad. And they don’t have enough good players.
   534. SteveF Posted: October 16, 2018 at 10:31 PM (#5768376)
Simmons is going to play a ton of minutes this year.

Sixers were -8 in Simmons's 43 minutes, and -10 in the 5 minutes he wasn't on the floor.
   535. PJ Martinez Posted: October 16, 2018 at 10:31 PM (#5768377)
It reminded me of the playoff series last season. Philly has two amazing players, but the Celtics defend them about as well as they can be defended, and the other Sixers don't do enough to hurt you (at least not when they're on the road).
   536. Booey Posted: October 16, 2018 at 10:59 PM (#5768395)
That game seemed like a good example of the Celtics depth, as they were able to win easily against a playoff team* despite poor shooting nights from Jaylen Brown, Kyrie Irving, and Gilderoy Hufflepuff.

Tatum is gonna be a stud.


* Though they didn't look like one on this night.
   537. tshipman Posted: October 16, 2018 at 11:08 PM (#5768414)
The 76’ers offense is bad. And they don’t have enough good players.


I think that Fultz really hurts them. I get that they're going for upside, but they looked like a clogged toilet with him in there. -16 in 24 min.
   538. jmurph Posted: October 16, 2018 at 11:11 PM (#5768421)
They have a limited amount of shooting as it is, they certainly can't play Fultz and Simmons at the same time. There's no way that can last.
   539. jmurph Posted: October 16, 2018 at 11:24 PM (#5768428)
Nerlens sighting! Completely forgot he was on OKC.
   540. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:25 AM (#5768490)
all of these quotes are 100% truth:
Philly has two amazing players, but the Celtics defend them about as well as they can be defended
[the Sixers] halfcourt offense continues to be designed to get extremely difficult shots for JJ Redick.
Jaylen Brown should be ashamed for staring down a guy who just blocked his shot
same goes for Tatum staring at Embiid after that bank-shot long two he hit over him
I don’t like Boston
it appears that Fultz still isn't very good
The Sixers are uniquely frustrating (if you're cheering for them) in that the reasons they're losing/having a bad game are so plainly obvious.
Simmons is such a freight train when he finds a lane to the basket. LeBron-esque

and a few additional 57i66135 nuggets that i'll pinch off for you:
they need jimmy butler.
they need tyreke evans.
they need nerlens noel.
   541. MHS Posted: October 17, 2018 at 07:26 AM (#5768691)
I think that Fultz really hurts them. I get that they're going for upside, but they looked like a clogged toilet with him in there. -16 in 24 min.


It’s not just him. Johnson hurt them. McConnell hurts them because he doesn’t space the floor at all.

Shamet might be an interesting option down the line.
   542. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2018 at 07:49 AM (#5768697)
and a few additional 57i66135 nuggets that i'll pinch off for you:
they need jimmy butler.


You know ... something could be arranged for a VERY reasonable price I am sure.
   543. Just TFTIO Posted: October 17, 2018 at 08:43 AM (#5768719)
I think that Fultz really hurts them. I get that they're going for upside, but they looked like a clogged toilet with him in there. -16 in 24 min.

It's an interesting gamble; that they can remain competitive while they bring him up to speed. But wow did they look hapless at times last night.

The NBA has started! The NBA has started! The NBA has started!
   544. spivey Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:02 AM (#5768729)
The 76ers absolutely are doing the right thing right now. Fultz, for as much as he struggles on offense, seems like he can be a plus defender. I also think he can be passable at offense if he plays with more conviction, or nasty. Right now he's a bit tentative, which is to be expected. Also, they don't have enough spacing on offense, but they look like a different team if Saric/RoCo/Redick are making closer to 40% 3s than 20%.

I imagine down the stretch of the season McConnell's role will grow if Fultz hasn't seized the opportunity.

Beyond just Fultz, the 76ers still play very immature basketball. They're very loose with possessions. To me, that's where Boston really beats them is they don't give away points like that.

That said, it's game 1 in the season for a young team.
   545. Just TFTIO Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:32 AM (#5768747)
You know ... something could be arranged for a VERY reasonable price I am sure.

For instance.
   546. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:38 AM (#5768756)
I forget his phrasing, but Zach Lowe called this something like a regrouping/development/transitional year for Philly and I think that's right. Take some lumps trying to develop Fultz as, if he's as good as he once appeared he could be, they've a championship caliber base. However, Fultz, as is now and will be for the foreseeable future, is an awful complement for what they want to do on offense. Furthermore, I think you want to stagger his minutes so that he's on the floor whenever Simmons isn't - the two together are simply too problematic for their spacing if they want to be more than just ok.
   547. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:41 AM (#5768761)
For instance.


Die in a fire. :)
   548. Just TFTIO Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:48 AM (#5768768)
Die in a fire. :)

I mean, honestly, how much better a deal do you think they'll get, given the hash that Taylor has made of this situation?
   549. spivey Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:54 AM (#5768773)
Fultz needs significantly more minutes than "Whenever Ben Simmons, guy who's probably gonna get 37-40 minutes/game, is on the bench". I'd hope he gets to a point sometime this year where he's comfortable-ish taking wide open 3s. I mean ####### Baynes made a 3 last night. I think Boston is tough in game 1 because they're well coached and have a smart aggressive team, so they'll eat up your spacing. But a January Tuesday in Atlanta, you can get by without that for long stretches.
   550. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 17, 2018 at 10:02 AM (#5768780)
Oh sure - you take the hit with the two of them together... I just think you try to ALWAYS have him out there when Simmons isn't and maybe, say, 10-12 min when he is.

Wins aside, coupling them could be bad for Fultz's confidence and hence development. Put him in situations where he can succeed.
   551. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 10:04 AM (#5768781)
Some of Simmons' passes yesterday were...*chef's kiss*
   552. Just TFTIO Posted: October 17, 2018 at 10:10 AM (#5768790)
Some of Simmons' passes yesterday were...*chef's kiss*

He is so fun to watch.
   553. jmurph Posted: October 17, 2018 at 10:10 AM (#5768792)
Wins aside, coupling them could be bad for Fultz's confidence and hence development. Put him in situations where he can succeed.

Yeah I won't concern troll and pretend to care about the Sixers or anything, but as a human, I'm not sure it's good for the guy to be out there and just be the worst player on the court in all situations. I imagine the D League would also be bad for him mentally, but I don't really know what the options are, he doesn't currently have NBA skills.
   554. spivey Posted: October 17, 2018 at 10:23 AM (#5768804)
What's Fultz's short term upside? Dejounte Murray or something like that? I think that is reachable within this year. I thought generally he looked ok on some of his drives and cuts, he's just not making decisions as quick and hard as you need to in those areas. It'll be tricky because maybe his initial growth means more staggering with Simmons, but by the same token Simmons is the future of the team and will always dominate the ball. He will need to develop an off-ball game.
   555. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 17, 2018 at 10:26 AM (#5768809)
Dejounte - I like that. Yeah, I think so.
   556. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:00 AM (#5768835)
fultz's non-3P shooting upside: dwyane wade. an elite slasher, mid range scorer, great athleticism, great defense, great wiggle, very good passing.

fultz and simmons playing together: the way brett brown described it, he plans on using the first 2/3 of the season to develop the roster with the intention of getting the team to peak in april/may. on a related note, they finished last season on a 16 game winning streak.

this is what i posted after the BOS/PHI series last season:
there are a few things the sixers need to do this summer:
1: hire an experienced assistant coach who isn't jim obrien
2: add at least one more player who can break teams down in isolation
3: find more ways to get to the damn FT line
4: the rotation has to be more athletic.

1: success (they hired monty williams)
2: fail
3: fail
4: fail (unless wilson chandler is alot better than i anticipate).
   557. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:09 AM (#5768847)
you mean long term for fultz, not short term - right STEAGLES?
   558. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5768897)
For instance.



Die in a fire. :)


How in the hell does that add 26 projected wins to Minnesota?
   559. Willard Baseball Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5768904)
I somehow missed the predictions before last night. I thought I would go ahead and post mine:

West
1. Warriors
2. Utah
3. Houston
4. LA Lakers
5. Denver
6. Memphis
7. Portland
8. New Orleans
9. OKC
10. San Antonio
11. T-Wolves
12. Phoenix
13. Mavericks
14. Clippers
15. Kings

Lakers upset Golden State in 2nd round and make it to finals.

East
1. Toronto
2. Boston
3. Milwaukee
4. Indiana
5. Philly
6. Charlotte
7. Detroit
8. Washington
9. Miami
10. Brooklyn
11. Bulls
12. Cavs
13. Magic
14. Knicks
15. Hawks

The bottom of this conference is awful. Toronto in finals.

Lakers win 4-2 over Toronto in finals.

ROY: Doncic
MVP: LeBron
COY: Walton
   560. aberg Posted: October 17, 2018 at 11:57 AM (#5768905)
What's Fultz's short term upside? Dejounte Murray or something like that?


That's funny because Fultz replaced Murray as UW's PG. I get that there are other things Fultz can theoretically do well, but for now, he is a non-shooter replacing a shooter and it really showed up in their offense.
   561. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:06 PM (#5768911)
559- Whoa. Are you higher on Denver than most or did they improve their team a lot this summer?

(Or are you thinking it’s gonna be like last year, where there’s very little distance between seeds 5 through 10)?
   562. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5768914)
I think that Fultz really hurts them. I get that they're going for upside, but they looked like a clogged toilet with him in there. -16 in 24 min.

They have a limited amount of shooting as it is, they certainly can't play Fultz and Simmons at the same time. There's no way that can last.

Wins aside, coupling them could be bad for Fultz's confidence and hence development. Put him in situations where he can succeed.

Fultz, as is now and will be for the foreseeable future, is an awful complement for what they want to do on offense.

Fultz, for as much as he struggles on offense, seems like he can be a plus defender.

Fultz needs significantly more minutes than "Whenever Ben Simmons, guy who's probably gonna get 37-40 minutes/game, is on the bench".

Every one of these statements is true. A Simmons/Fultz/Embiid core is phenomenal talent-wise and pretty terrible in terms of fit. They're all at their best finishing around the rim, and the lack of outside shooting grinds the offense to a halt.

That's why in my preseason predictions (#499) I said that Fultz will be traded this year in order to acquire Bradley Beal. I think Beal makes a lot more sense than Butler as a trade target. Though Beal's a worse defender and therefore a lesser player in a vacuum, he spaces the floor much better, he's 4 years younger, and he's under contract for 3 years rather than 1. Like Butler, Beal creates efficient offense and takes care of the ball -- which is what the Sixers really need.

Here's why I think a Fultz+ for Beal trade will be available: Beal and Wall don't get along. Last year it appeared to be a toxic situation, and the Wizards proceeded to add Dwight Howard and Austin Rivers this past summer. They have an early West Coast trip and their first few home games are against playoff teams. If they get off to a rocky start, it could turn bad fast. The Wizards will be anxious to make a move this season, and trading Beal is their best bet to get an exciting return. A core of Wall/Fultz/Porter, plus additional draft assets and major financial incentives (money and cap space), is something you can sell to Wizards management and fans.
   563. spivey Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:12 PM (#5768918)
How in the hell does that add 26 projected wins to Minnesota?

I was wondering the same thing, but it looks like it's probably a bug with how this year's PER is being used. Fultz is the only one with a PER in the trade and one of the few with one in the league.
   564. Just TFTIO Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5768956)
How in the hell does that add 26 projected wins to Minnesota?

GET R DONE, Taylor! Go from 30/52 to 56/26!
   565. GregD Posted: October 17, 2018 at 12:56 PM (#5768961)
Here's why I think a Fultz+ for Beal trade will be available: Beal and Wall don't get along. Last year it appeared to be a toxic situation, and the Wizards proceeded to add Dwight Howard and Austin Rivers this past summer. They have an early West Coast trip and their first few home games are against playoff teams. If they get off to a rocky start, it could turn bad fast. The Wizards will be anxious to make a move this season, and trading Beal is their best bet to get an exciting return. A core of Wall/Fultz/Porter, plus additional draft assets and major financial incentives (money and cap space), is something you can sell to Wizards management and fans.
I can see the Wiz deciding to move Beal. But who in the world would think Fultz could play alongside Wall? Won't they immediately be looking to trade for a guard who can shoot? Maybe Beal would become available? id guess that Fultz can only end up at a place that already has lots of shooting, not at a place built around a point guard who isn't much of a shooter (or at least until Wall proves last year's bump wasn't a fluke)
   566. Paul D(uda) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:13 PM (#5768990)
Kevin Pelton was on Jonah Keri's podcast today, I thought it was a good listen.
   567. Rally Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5769003)
Has any superstar player ever become a good coach, in any sport?


Joe Torre. HOVG playing resume, including an MVP season. Made HOF for his managing alone.
   568. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:23 PM (#5769007)
I was wondering the same thing, but it looks like it's probably a bug with how this year's PER is being used. Fultz is the only one with a PER in the trade and one of the few with one in the league.


ah, maybe because Fultz is the only one that appeared in a game last night. that's an "8-legged Freaks"-sized bug!
   569. jmurph Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:31 PM (#5769017)
Agree that Fultz would be a terrible fit alongside Wall, who also can't shoot (well he can physically shoot, unlike Fultz, he just can't shoot well from deep).

I also don't think Butler would be a great fit for the Sixers. He would make them better because he's very good and would make most teams better, but in a 1+1+1 = 2.5ish kind of way. He's a ball dominant guy and Simmons is not yet anything special without the ball.
   570. aberg Posted: October 17, 2018 at 01:45 PM (#5769036)
The Sixers should try to acquire Korver. He can't really defend anymore, but they have lots of versatility to cover for him. He's the kind of outlet Belinelli was for them last year, only better. I doubt Cleveland will demand all that much when the start 2-11 or whatever.
   571. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 17, 2018 at 02:04 PM (#5769059)
nuggets extended coach mike malone.
   572. Willard Baseball Posted: October 17, 2018 at 02:23 PM (#5769080)
I think Denver will win a ton on their homecourt. I think some of the top teams (i.e. Houston) will rest up some, so wins will be easier this year in West. Denver has better depth than most west coast teams.

I am higher on Memphis (2 good players, 6 or so average ones) and Charlotte than most. I am down on Philly/San Antonio/OKC (injuries there worry me).
   573. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:17 PM (#5769216)
The Sixers should try to acquire Korver.
As a Celtics fan, I'm a big fan of this idea.

Joking aside, the Sixers need more shooting, and Korver would be a huge help, albeit primarily on one end. Long-term, they should probably start rummaging through a bunch of relatively fringe prospects to find a few 3-D diamonds in the rough who can be ready to help on both ends by the time Fultz has a feel for the pro game (FWIW, I still believe in Fultz. He has the physical talent, good enough handle/vision, and an improvisatory, herky-jerky instinct for getting defenders off balance; if he never gets a solid jumper, he may not live up to the number one pick, but he'll still be a genuinely good player barring further injury.)
   574. If on a winter's night a baserunner Posted: October 17, 2018 at 04:28 PM (#5769233)
Or try to sign or trade for more established guys, or try to jump into a Miami-Minnesota trade to see if they can get Wayne Ellington or something. Point is, to get to a tier beyond where they already are, they don't just need shooters: they need shooters who are more athletic than Korver, because at his age, he's too easy to exploit in the playoffs.
   575. aberg Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:29 PM (#5769302)
Joking aside, the Sixers need more shooting, and Korver would be a huge help, albeit primarily on one end. Long-term, they should probably start rummaging through a bunch of relatively fringe prospects to find a few 3-D diamonds in the rough who can be ready to help on both ends by the time Fultz has a feel for the pro game (FWIW, I still believe in Fultz. He has the physical talent, good enough handle/vision, and an improvisatory, herky-jerky instinct for getting defenders off balance; if he never gets a solid jumper, he may not live up to the number one pick, but he'll still be a genuinely good player barring further injury.)


The part about the Fultz thing that seems weird to me is that they feel that it's necessary to acclimate him WITH the best unit. Maybe he can start with them and play the first 5-6 minutes of the game so he can be called a "starter." If the goal is to rebuild his confidence and help him learn how he fits into an NBA offense, it would seem much easier to do that with the second unit. That's how most teams ease in most rookies. Wouldn't a crisis of confidence make that a better idea rather than a worse one?
   576. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:50 PM (#5769334)
From the comments here and elsewhere, it looks like the Markelle Fultz bandwagon for 2018/19 is now completely empty.
   577. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: October 17, 2018 at 05:55 PM (#5769336)
From the comments here and elsewhere, it looks like the Markelle Fultz bandwagon for 2018/19 is now completely empty.

The defensive potential is still there. He looks long as hell. Offensively he reminds me of Harden in that he plays at a different rhythm than everyone else and I think that could be helpful. He has to tighten up his handle, be more aggressive, and learn to shoot. Basically, there's still stuff there but his timetable and his team's timetable might not align.
   578. Laser Man Posted: October 17, 2018 at 06:10 PM (#5769355)
From the comments here and elsewhere, it looks like the Markelle Fultz bandwagon for 2018/19 is now completely empty.
I'm still partially on the bandwagon. Fultz showed some ability to beat opponents off the dribble, even though they were playing off him. He got to the basket a few times, but didn't finish well - hopefully that was a fluke. The group of Simmons, Embiid, and Fultz played together for 14 minutes last night, and were actually +1 as a unit. He made one nice pull-up jumper from 15 feet. There's footage on Fultz and Simmons shooting in the gym at 2 AM this morning after returning from Boston, so that's probably a good sign.
   579. aberg Posted: October 17, 2018 at 06:10 PM (#5769356)
It's also one game. There are plenty of reasons for skepticism and he hasn't done much to refute the reasons for skepticism. Even so, he's extremely young and his trajectory could change in a hurry.
   580. . . . . . . Posted: October 17, 2018 at 06:16 PM (#5769360)
Fultz is still a super interesting talent, he’s just nothing resembling what a 1-1 draft pick should be.
   581. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: October 17, 2018 at 06:30 PM (#5769375)
something else to keep in mind:
the sixers' roster construction is a declaration of intent. they have 3 rookies (zhaire smith, landry shamet, jonah bolden), plus fultz and furkan korkmaz (<500 combined minutes played), plus jerryd bayless (worthless), amir johnson (meh) and mike muscala (ugh), plus two solid veterans on one year deals (wilson chandler and jj redick).

this team is not here to contend.


they should have drafted michael porter; they should have signed tyreke evans and nerlens noel.
   582. aberg Posted: October 17, 2018 at 06:59 PM (#5769396)
they should have drafted michael porter; they should have signed tyreke evans and nerlens noel.


Aren't those kind of at odds? Porter is a play for the following year, Noel is a lotto ticket, and Evans is a play for right now.
   583. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 17, 2018 at 07:01 PM (#5769399)
the sixers' roster construction is a declaration of intent.
I love this line, and I like the analysis behind it.
There's footage on Fultz and Simmons shooting in the gym at 2 AM this morning after returning from Boston, so that's probably a good sign.
I watched this game out of the corner of my eye this morning. The extent to which Boston sagged off of those two was really something — they were almost begging those guys to pull up from range. That neither of them even attempted a three-pointer was telling. I'm glad they're shooting in practice. I wanna see it in games. That's actually what has me more optimistic than not about Lonzo Ball; no matter how awful he was shooting last season, he still had the nerve/confidence to keep jacking up from 3. When Simmons and Fultz actually dare to shoot from range in a game situation, only then can we really start taking them seriously as contending players.
   584. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: October 17, 2018 at 07:29 PM (#5769434)
Basically, there's still stuff there but his timetable and his team's timetable might not align.


This is the basic problem with the way the NBA draft works these days. Most good prospects are drafted when they are 19 or 20 and by the time they are good, their rookie contract is over, meaning that the team no longer really gets a bargain -- either pays a lot to keep them or lets them go, but either way they don't generate any excess value over the cap. I'm not advocating something like making the NBA draft for 22 year olds, but even good players are often not good until they hit the very end of their rookie contract and then stop being bargains.

Really it seems like on some level the only great draft picks are the really top tier prospects like Davis or Towns or Simmons, who might be supermax players later (you keep them because you can pay a higher max, and they generate value above the level of their max), or the vets like Brogdon who contribute right away and generate surplus value above their rookie contract. Fultz is an extreme example but the normal thing is to pay a lot to keep the guy once he gets good (players who are hitting that around now: Wiggins, Porter, Aaron Gordon, McCollum) or let him go because you don't want to pay the money (players hitting that: Jabari, LaVine, Randle, Olynyk).

Who would you have rather drafted, Malcolm Brogdon or Otto Porter?
   585. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: October 17, 2018 at 08:06 PM (#5769463)
Aren't those kind of at odds? Porter is a play for the following year, Noel is a lotto ticket, and Evans is a play for right now.

the sixers have 3 main problems:
1: lack of athleticism
2: lack of shooting
3: lack of self-creation

evans and porter could have addressed all 3 of those issues, albeit not necessarily at the same time.
   586. JJ1986 Posted: October 17, 2018 at 08:10 PM (#5769467)
Collin Sexton plays with a ton of energy.
   587. spivey Posted: October 17, 2018 at 08:28 PM (#5769475)
God I love the pace that New Orleans plays with. They're a really fun team to watch.
   588. spivey Posted: October 17, 2018 at 08:32 PM (#5769479)
Charlotte's court is ####### hideous.
   589. MHS Posted: October 17, 2018 at 08:41 PM (#5769482)
From watching half of the raptors game and half of the bucks game, it sure looks like both of these teams are legit and the east is much improved.
   590. MHS Posted: October 17, 2018 at 08:51 PM (#5769488)
This is the basic problem with the way the NBA draft works these days. Most good prospects are drafted when they are 19 or 20 and by the time they are good, their rookie contract is over, meaning that the team no longer really gets a bargain -- either pays a lot to keep them or lets them go, but either way they don't generate any excess value over the cap.


I don’t believe this is true. Good coaches and good organizations put young players into roles that can help their team win and they can overtime (the course of season and years) expand. The Celtics, The Raptors, The Spurs, The Jazz have all done this.

These good teams have good coaches, and good systems and identify good young players who can contribute and put them in a posistion to contribute.

   591. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:03 PM (#5769503)
The first nine minutes of the Timberwolves season have been terrible. I think it's safe to say their season is over.
   592. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:05 PM (#5769511)
Wolves playing better with Butler off the floor.
   593. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:13 PM (#5769544)
The early evidence is the Rockets aren't as good defensively.
   594. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:27 PM (#5769566)
It's really ugly how obviously Butler is shot-seeking. He could be unplayable for the Wolves.
   595. SteveF Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:39 PM (#5769576)
You're making me wish I was watching that game instead of the Pelicans-Rockets.
   596. PJ Martinez Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:43 PM (#5769578)
At the half: "Nine T-wolves have played and seven of them have taken more shots than KAT, because of course they have"
   597. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:43 PM (#5769579)
I love AD's energy in this game but I hope the big fella doesn't hurt himself. If he can match this effort all year and stay healthy, just give him the MVP now. This AD, Holliday, Randle, Mirotic core is for real.
   598. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:48 PM (#5769585)
I really wish the Lakers could have brought Randle back.
   599. tshipman Posted: October 17, 2018 at 09:57 PM (#5769595)
AD at center is such a cheat code.
   600. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 17, 2018 at 10:00 PM (#5769607)
Minnesota's not exactly running an offense, but the Spurs just look really unathletic. They're so slow. No one in a white jersey can stay in front of the ball, they can't switch, they can't rotate. It's sad. This is how the the great Spurs dynasty's going to go down, finally.
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