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Tuesday, April 16, 2019

OT - NBA thread (Playoffs through off-season)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, and this one only cares about the NBA thread and the Cubs so I have no idea what the rest of the website cares about.

Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: April 16, 2019 at 02:18 PM | 6552 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   2301. jmurph Posted: May 24, 2019 at 10:32 AM (#5845300)
Another thing: all of VanVleet's 3s were classified as Wide Open (5/5) or Open (2/4). Again, obviously he's very unlikely to go 7/9 again in this series or possibly ever, but he was getting very, very good looks.
   2302. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 24, 2019 at 10:45 AM (#5845309)
Not to go all tshipman, but the Raptors went 18-43 from 3, while Milwaukee went 10-31.

Yeah, that's kinda my biggest feeling about last night, too. I also agree Giannis should probably get a significantly higher amount of fouls called for him, and there's only so much he can do when he's not getting calls and his team isn't hitting shots. Bud doesn't seem like the type that can play the press narrative to get pressure on the league to buy them some more favorable calls.

He's Pippen on defense, Kobe on offense.

I see some of the Kobe comparisons on how Kawhi generates his shots now, but Kobe wishes he was as good of a shooter as Kawhi. Kawhi's worst season FG% (last year) was 46.8%, Kobe's best was 46.9%; that KL year was a 51.8eFG% and Kobe's high was 50.4%.

Kawhi is actually taking more shot per game in the playoffs than during the year and is making a higher percent of them; I'd guess quite a few are of the tougher variety too. He's really been amazing this run.
   2303. Master of the Horse Posted: May 24, 2019 at 10:46 AM (#5845310)
Was not as confident as I was reading in the general internets about Bucks winning game 5 because game 4 was not weird like game 3. And last night Bucks had a lot of things work and still lost which is a really bad sign obviously. Brogdon did his thing, lost. Bledsoe not terrible, lost. Lopez hit some shots, lost. All of the sudden the Bucks bench is getting killed. Other than Hill everyone was terrible.
   2304. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: May 24, 2019 at 11:07 AM (#5845327)
The Ringer had a good stat about Giannis-Brogdon-Middleton lineups being a huge plus (ETA: in this series) for the Bucks but only playing 11 minutes together last night.
   2305. Master of the Horse Posted: May 24, 2019 at 11:10 AM (#5845334)
2304--That's a really good point. That group ####### rocks.
   2306. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 24, 2019 at 11:46 AM (#5845355)
Brogdon is so perfect for the Bucks. He is fun to watch.
   2307. Booey Posted: May 24, 2019 at 11:51 AM (#5845363)
so here's a question that probably has an obvious answer, but maybe not:

what will UTA offer rudy gobert when his contract is up?


This is why I don't like the supermax and why I don't think it's working the way it was intended. Obviously a lot can change in a year, but as of now all indications point to Gobert being happy in SLC. If he were a free agent right now, I'm very confident he'd re-sign. Yet despite (somehow) never even being an All Star, he's eligible for the supermax next year because of the All NBA selections and the DPOY, so now the Jazz are going to have to pay way more for a guy that almost surely would have re-signed for the regular max had the supermax not been available. I suppose UTA could just offer the regular max, but then you risk offending him by not offering as much money as you could have. The supermax ends up punishing the teams its intended to help more often than it actually helps them.

I love Gobert, and I hope he stays with the Jazz his entire career. And I absolutely think he deserves a normal max contract. But paying him an estimated 55-60 mil per season in his early 30's? Yikes. That's not All Star money, that's MVP money, which he's not. The only players I'd be comfortable giving that much of my cap space to are perennial MVP candidates: Giannis, Harden, Curry, Durant, Kawhi, and probably Davis (and even AD would give me pause). That's it. Considering his age and regression on defense, I don't think even LeBron is a supermax caliber player anymore.

I wouldn't offer Kemba a supermax if I ran Charlotte. I probably would with Lillard if I were Portland, but I would have been secretly hoping he didn't qualify for it so I didn't have to, as he seems like another player who's content with where he's at and would probably have stayed with a regular max contract.
   2308. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 24, 2019 at 11:53 AM (#5845366)
I think the supermax was a solution to a different problem than it was intended to solve. It seems pretty dumb.
   2309. jmurph Posted: May 24, 2019 at 12:15 PM (#5845381)
Anybody have any idea what the Durant/Kyrie/Butler money difference is if they sign with their current teams vs leave for others? I know they're not DPE eligible since they're not on their drafted teams anymore.
   2310. jmurph Posted: May 24, 2019 at 12:55 PM (#5845401)
The league is officially moving the beginning of free agency to 6pm eastern on June 30, instead of midnight. Much better for tv/twitter!
   2311. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 24, 2019 at 01:09 PM (#5845409)
Unlike NFL and NHL FA, it's not usually like there's a rush of signings right at the start.
   2312. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: May 24, 2019 at 01:16 PM (#5845411)
I, for one, preferred midnight. I love(d) the mental image of NBA execs and players knocking on doors at midnight.
   2313. jmurph Posted: May 24, 2019 at 01:16 PM (#5845412)
Unlike NFL and NHL FA, it's not usually like there's a rush of signings right at the start.

There's pretty frequently a lot of deals announced right after the deadline, just not necessarily the biggest names.

EDIT: Hoops Rumors has 31 deals agreed to on July 1 last year.
   2314. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: May 24, 2019 at 01:20 PM (#5845415)
I think the supermax was a solution to a different problem than it was intended to solve. It seems pretty dumb.


It seems to have solved the problem of teams feeling compelled to keep their superstar players.
   2315. RJ in TO Posted: May 24, 2019 at 02:36 PM (#5845445)
So for baseball, I have a pretty good feeling, based on the advanced metrics, as to when a player is on a Hall of Fame path, and at which thresholds a player generally crosses into the range where they'll get serious consideration from the voters (roughly 60 WAR with 25 WAA). There are some exceptions, often due to the nebulous character clause, but these thresholds work well enough.

For the advanced basketball metrics, are there similar thresholds that work well for the Basketball Hall of Fame voting? In particular, I'm asking about more counting metrics, like Win Shares or VORP, rather than rate stats.

I also recognize the nature of the basketball Hall of Fame, which also seems to consider things like international play, foreign leagues, college play, and everything else, may make this less clear cut than something like baseball, which really only considered MLB play.
   2316. it's hittin' 53450n. Posted: May 24, 2019 at 03:13 PM (#5845457)
I also recognize the nature of the basketball Hall of Fame, which also seems to consider things like international play, foreign leagues, college play, and everything else, may make this less clear cut than something like baseball, which really only considered MLB play.

the BkHOF is most comparable to the frankie frisch era veterans committee:
...Frisch was elected to the Hall of Fame by the BBWAA in 1947. Twenty years later, he was named to the Veterans Committee. He swiftly came to dominate it, intent on unilaterally ratifying his belief that his era was the best era by filling the Hall with his contemporaries. And so for the next seven years, before Frisch died in an auto accident on I-95 (while driving back from a Committee vote, no less) the main qualification for getting into the Hall via the Committee was, “Played with/for Frankie Frisch on the Giants or Cardinals.”

Into the Hall went pitcher Jesse Haines, outfielder Chick Hafey, shortstop Dave Bancroft, outfielder Ross Youngs, and first baseman George Kelly. Even after Frisch suffered his fatal crash, the Committee kept picking players from his collection, tabbing first baseman Jim Bottomley, third baseman/outfielder Freddie Lindstrom, and shortstop Travis Jackson. None of these were bad players, but in many cases they are decidedly sub-Baines ones—not any better on a career basis than, say, Tino Martinez or Steve Trachsel.

Not that the Frischians—he had to co-opt 11 other voters—stopped at old pals. During this period they also anointed pitcher Rube Marquard, center fielder Lloyd Waner, right fielder Harry Hooper, and several other soft selections.


as an example, there are 17 active womens college basketball coaches in the BkHOF.

as another example, christian laetner is in the BkHOF.

as another example, derrick coleman is in the BkHOF.

as another example, billy king is in the BkHOF.

as another example, linas kleiza is in the BkHOF.








...now, i don't actually know whether any of those things are true, but i do know that they are not obviously false.
   2317. it's hittin' 53450n. Posted: May 24, 2019 at 03:17 PM (#5845459)
trade machine: who says 'no'?

DEN: ben simmons, nic batum, malik monk
CHO: gary harris, will barton, jonathan simmons, juancho hernangomez, #24 overall pick
PHI: miles bridges, torrey craig, malik beasley, #12 overall pick
   2318. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: May 24, 2019 at 04:54 PM (#5845486)
I believe there are 5 current women's college basketball coaches and 10 current men's college basketball coaches in the Hall of Fame. (counting Larry Brown, Jim Calhoun and Rick Pitino as not retired, and Sylvia Hatchell who was just fired after 33 years at UNC)
   2319. aberg Posted: May 24, 2019 at 05:33 PM (#5845494)
I'm late to the party, but the thing that impressed me more than anything last night was Siakam's help defense. Draymond is the only other non-primary center I can think of in recent history who did as much to deter/bother penetration off the ball as Siakam did last night.
   2320. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 24, 2019 at 07:10 PM (#5845509)
Trade Machine: Who says no?

NO: Lebron James
LAL: #1 Pick
   2321. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 24, 2019 at 07:13 PM (#5845510)
I assume Maverick Carter.
   2322. Tony S Posted: May 24, 2019 at 07:35 PM (#5845511)
Trade Machine: Who says no?

NO: Lebron James
LAL: #1 Pick


Lebron, and every non-Laker fan.
   2323. tshipman Posted: May 24, 2019 at 10:19 PM (#5845542)
trade machine: who says 'no'?

DEN: ben simmons, nic batum, malik monk
CHO: gary harris, will barton, jonathan simmons, juancho hernangomez, #24 overall pick
PHI: miles bridges, torrey craig, malik beasley, #12 overall pick


I'm pretty sure Philly says no, actually.
   2324. sardonic Posted: May 25, 2019 at 01:18 AM (#5845559)
Upon reflection and then looking at the stats, one other thing I noticed in Bucks-Raptors was the Bucks didn't seem to get out on the break as much in the second half. They scored a handful fewer fast break points (20 vs. 25 and 28) compared to their Game 1 and 2 wins, in a game they lost by 6. An extra 3-5 possessions in a game where they get out and run is one of those things around the margins that can make a difference in a tight series.

Raptors only had 6 turnovers vs 12 in a close loss in Game 1 and 14 in a blowout loss in Game 2. 6 turnovers seems like an unsustainably low number to me.

A couple more turnovers and pushing the ball more when the opportunity presents itself could be something to watch in Game 6.
   2325. it's hittin' 53450n. Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:06 AM (#5845571)
I'm pretty sure Philly says no, actually.
it's barely even worth fantasizing about, but the idea would be to sign kyrie irving to go with embiid and butler, then go with a roster that looks something like this:

starting lineup:
kyrie - craig - butler - bridges - embiid

rotation in bold:
G: kyrie, beasley, teejer, carsen edwards
W: butler, craig, bridges, scott, zhaire, ennis, demarre carroll
B: embiid, bolden, taj gibson, bol bol

   2326. CFBF's Overflowing Pathos Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:19 AM (#5845572)
Could Butler get through an entire season without murdering Kyrie?
   2327. it's hittin' 53450n. Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:35 AM (#5845573)
Could Butler get through an entire season without murdering Kyrie?
maybe. maybe not.
   2328. sardonic Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:07 AM (#5845580)
For all the hand wringing, I think Milwaukee has more paths to victory tonight than Toronto.

Milwaukee:
1. Get Middleton more looks and he turns in a Klay Thompson-esque (non Game 6 version) night
2. Push the pace to out in transition
3. Help Giannis and others make better decisions when doubled in the paint and there is no route to the basket
4. Giannis just lays waste and nothing else matters

Toronto I think needs more or less everything to go right if even one or possibly two of the above happens. They already got 35 from Kawhi, timely boards from Ibaka, a strong game from Lowry, hot shooting from role players.
   2329. puck Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:51 AM (#5845583)
Where does one find the classification of 3's (wide open vs open vs [I assume] contested)? Is this on basketball reference or the NBA site somewhere?
   2330. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 25, 2019 at 01:41 PM (#5845587)
For all the hand wringing, I think Milwaukee has more paths to victory tonight than Toronto.
I just want the refs to give Giannis to get the same calls Lowry and Kawhi got. That's the only path they need. The Raptors literally only won that last game due to the refs.
   2331. Paul D(uda) Posted: May 25, 2019 at 03:41 PM (#5845599)
Indont know if anyone listened to The Starters yesterday, but I think they accurately captures the mood of the city of toronto - after thinking the Raptors were neber going to win anything in the playoffs, the entire city is basically acting like theyve already made the finals and have a shot.

Hopefully the team isnt thinking like that
   2332. tshipman Posted: May 25, 2019 at 03:57 PM (#5845602)
I just want the refs to give Giannis to get the same calls Lowry and Kawhi got. That's the only path they need. The Raptors literally only won that last game due to the refs.


You’re weak. Shut the #### up. Every single persons takes on this thread are #### besides Moses and Der K.
   2333. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 25, 2019 at 08:31 PM (#5845641)
I am more invested in this outcome than I had expected to be.
   2334. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: May 25, 2019 at 09:00 PM (#5845651)
accurately captures the mood of the city of toronto - after thinking the Raptors were neber going to win anything in the playoffs, the entire city is basically acting like theyve already made the finals and have a shot.


I know I'm posting this when Raptors are down 13 so that's cheating I guess, but I can't fathom being a Raptors fan and having that attitude with their history.
   2335. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 25, 2019 at 09:00 PM (#5845652)
Spivey's raised interest in this game for me, no question, but Giannis definitely looks more active right now than he has in a while. He's flying all over the paint, and his defense is really causing havoc. Middleton and Brogdon getting off to good starts from the arc really helped.
   2336. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 25, 2019 at 09:06 PM (#5845655)
Neither Giannis nor Kawhi is really an accurate passer, huh?
   2337. tshipman Posted: May 25, 2019 at 09:21 PM (#5845658)
Neither Giannis nor Kawhi is really an accurate passer, huh?


Giannis is a much, much, much better passer than Kawhi.
   2338. tshipman Posted: May 25, 2019 at 09:22 PM (#5845659)
Does anyone actually watch Claws or Animal Kingdom?
   2339. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 25, 2019 at 09:36 PM (#5845669)
the Raptors and their Drake “We the North” schtick make me wish Vancouver had kept their team...

   2340. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 25, 2019 at 09:37 PM (#5845672)
Giannis is a much, much, much better passer than Kawhi.

Neither of them really hits their man right in the brisket, though. Giannis sees the floor better, that's for sure.
   2341. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 25, 2019 at 09:40 PM (#5845677)
That spin move is the most traveliest travel that ever traveled.
   2342. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:05 PM (#5845701)
Re. the getting of calls, itt does really seem like Giannis is kinda the anti-Harden, in the sense of lacking guile....
   2343. JJ1986 Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:05 PM (#5845702)
Half of the Raptors look scared to shoot threes again. They need to get more up.
   2344. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:25 PM (#5845706)
Jesus, Kawhi. Those last two minutes of the third were magnificent.
   2345. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:38 PM (#5845707)
We were all talking about Van Vleet being unplayable against big guards, and he’s gonna be the absolute key to winning the series, because—

the league really is right now about 90% hitting 3s on the night.

Everything else is just fussing around the margins.
   2346. JJ1986 Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:38 PM (#5845708)
Damn!
   2347. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:39 PM (#5845709)
I would really like it better if Drake just went the Hell away.
   2348. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:40 PM (#5845710)
Every Raptor on the floor scored in that stretch except Lowry, and he assisted on four of those baskets.

That dunk.
   2349. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:41 PM (#5845711)
These 20:30 Eastern starts are the pits, though.
   2350. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:42 PM (#5845712)
The Raps are playing out of their minds, and hitting a bunch of shots but...

...the Bucks are also kinda choking here.
   2351. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:44 PM (#5845713)
And now they're not. Which is why I kinda hate myself for saying that.
   2352. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:44 PM (#5845714)
This is something else.
   2353. tshipman Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:46 PM (#5845715)
And now they're not. Which is why I kinda hate myself for saying that.


Yeah, I think the "choking" stuff should be reserved for stuff like JR's mindfart or the Rockets missing 27 3s.
   2354. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:48 PM (#5845716)
They're just really, really well matched teams. It's very exciting.
   2355. RJ in TO Posted: May 25, 2019 at 10:50 PM (#5845717)
My heart would prefer it if it was a little less very exciting.
   2356. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:02 PM (#5845719)
Too exciting for shot clock guy, too.
   2357. JJ1986 Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:05 PM (#5845720)
It's not really fair that Toronto has to get the ball inbounded.
   2358. CFBF's Overflowing Pathos Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:07 PM (#5845721)
What a truly enthralling end to a great game.
   2359. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:12 PM (#5845722)
Four games ago, the Bucks were up 2-0, and the Raptors were dead. This is as stunning a turnaround as I can remember in the NBA. Even today, Toronto was down 15 with less than 15 minutes left in the game! Incredible.
   2360. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:13 PM (#5845723)
Yeah, I think the "choking" stuff should be reserved for stuff like JR's mindfart or the Rockets missing 27 3s.

They missed some easy shots, made bad passes, then they seemed to get even sloppier the closer the Raps got.

This really stinks for the Bucks, but I am happy for the Raptors and hope they can beat the warriors. Kawhi is amazing, what a ballsy awesome trade that was.
   2361. PJ Martinez Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:13 PM (#5845724)
Happy for all the Raptors fans. Will be pulling for Toronto in the Finals.
   2362. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:15 PM (#5845725)
Have to imagine there were some amazing Twitter takes a week ago after the Bucks won game two in a blowout.
   2363. Powderhorn™, arrogant local sailing champion Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:17 PM (#5845727)
Outstanding. The Finals will be weird. I don't know if I can root against this team.

EDIT: I mean, I will. But it will feel strange.
   2364. JC in DC Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:18 PM (#5845728)
Toronto's best player was better, much better, than Milwaukee's.
   2365. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:21 PM (#5845729)
Giannis finished +3 in a (I believe) series high 41 minutes. He should be well rested for the next game.
   2366. jmurph Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:27 PM (#5845730)
Damnit NJ I took the time to log in on the phone to make that joke.
   2367. jmurph Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:32 PM (#5845732)
Toronto is going to need to bring Danny Green back to life for the Finals. And Kawhi is on... Draymond? Until/unless Durant is back? That could be fun.
   2368. nick swisher hygiene Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:33 PM (#5845734)
Giannis didnt’t look like he knew what to do in the halfcourt, though...
   2369. rr: target market for blowhard nonsense Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:45 PM (#5845738)
I was wrong about Milwaukee every time, thus reinforcing spivey's point about the value of everybody's posts except, of course, Moses's and Der K's. That said, my general skepticism about Milwaukee was the lack of a second star and not being sure Antetokounmpo could go get 35 points in a tight money game if that is what it took. The 2008-9 Cavs comp looks a little better now, in retrospect.

the league really is right now about 90% hitting 3s on the night.

Everything else is just fussing around the margins.



Popovich said more or less the same thing several months ago in an interview and was not sanguine about it.

As to the Finals, I do not think it will super easy for GS, but I will be very surprised if they lose.
   2370. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: May 25, 2019 at 11:45 PM (#5845739)
[2368] Not a basketball coach or an Xs and Os guy, but here's what I saw:

They leaned on him too much as far as initiating the offense and should have used him as an overly qualified screen and roll guy and try to get him points at the rim or have him quickly kick out from those situations. On defense, despite whatever was going on, he was AMAZING. The beginning of the 4th when Bud sat him was where the season went to hell because he is the only MIL big that has the versatility to protect the rim and knock look stupid against perimeter players. Plus his general freakish help defense.
   2371. sardonic Posted: May 26, 2019 at 12:24 AM (#5845743)
The beginning of the 4th when Bud sat him was where the season went to hell


Underrated coaching move by Kerr -- in Game 4 against Portland he went for the kill shot by having Steph Curry start the 4th, where he normally takes a 4-6 minute breather.

Bummed that I didn't get to catch the game, except from across the room on a TV over the bar at my sister's engagement party (pfft, big deal, right?). From watching the highlights, reading through the thread and looking at the box score though,looks like TOR shot the three well and got contributions from the bench, while taking care of the ball and limiting the MIL fast break. Good on them.

If you're Milwaukee this one has got to hurt because it feels like they had all the tools to get the Finals and give the Ws a real challenge, just couldn't quite put it together. Not sure how they can do this with the cap situation, but having someone who can initiate the offense and get Giannis better looks than Bledsoe or George Hill can would be nice.
   2372. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: May 26, 2019 at 01:09 AM (#5845747)
in the last four 4th quarters, the Bucks scored 21, 21, 24 and 18 points. That's just not going to get it done, the Raptors made things difficult and each time the Bucks couldn't rise to the challenge. That's a testament to the TOR defense but I also think the Bucks just choked.

Since Giannis is a maniac, I expect him to stew about this for the next year and try to make things right. I already saw a headline about what does this loss mean for Giannis staying in Milwaukee. If anything, I'd imagine this makes it more likely he stays-- I think he'll think he owes the city and the team to redeem this loss. Maybe that's just wishcasting but it seems like that's the way he operates.
   2373. tshipman Posted: May 26, 2019 at 01:17 AM (#5845748)
in the last four 4th quarters, the Bucks scored 21, 21, 24 and 18 points. That's just not going to get it done, the Raptors made things difficult and each time the Bucks couldn't rise to the challenge. That's a testament to the TOR defense but I also think the Bucks just choked.


The Bucks couldn't get anything in the half court all series if the 3 pointer wasn't falling.

Is that choking? Maybe, but it wasn't the players who couldn't make the adjustments. The Bucks coaching staff never adjusted to the hybrid zone that Toronto used. Eric Bledsoe played far, far too many minutes in the series for a guy who was afraid to shoot.
   2374. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: May 26, 2019 at 07:41 AM (#5845755)
Over the last 4 games, there were too many times when the Bucks needed a bucket or a stop and just didn't step up-- turnovers, bad shots, giving up offensive rebounds or open 3s. The Raptors were able to execute better with the game on the line, defensively and offensively, and at times the Bucks looked like they forgot how to play basketball.

Again, Toronto's defense deserves a lot of credit but I also think the moment got to the Bucks. Giannis tried to do too much, Khris disappeared, and Bledsoe definitely choked.
   2375. Ken Griffey's Grotesquely Swollen Jaw Posted: May 26, 2019 at 07:55 AM (#5845756)
or, instead of the Bucks choking, maybe they lost because Fred VanVleet turned into Steph Curry for 3 games. That really was the difference and I should probably chill with the narrative stuff.
   2376. King Mekong Posted: May 26, 2019 at 09:53 AM (#5845760)
Still not happy about the trade.
   2377. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: May 26, 2019 at 10:52 AM (#5845765)
There are areas where the Bucks players could have done better and FVV did turn into Steph...but Bud got out coached.
   2378. Master of the Horse Posted: May 26, 2019 at 04:18 PM (#5845797)
Agree with 2377. Team loses 4 straight in a conf final where there is no talent gap or major injuries the coaches need to take the hit the most.
   2379. Powderhorn™, arrogant local sailing champion Posted: May 26, 2019 at 06:11 PM (#5845821)
And Kawhi is on... Draymond? Until/unless Durant is back?
I haven't watched much of Toronto before the playoffs. Does Kawhi ever play the Pippen-style roving force of destruction, not guarding any particular man? If so my first thought is to let him do that and put Siakam on Draymond. He certainly has the physical tools to deal with Draymond; I should look into him to see if his defensive IQ is high as well.

(My reading of the tea leaves/tweets has me assuming that in game 1 we will see Iggy, perhaps not at 100%, and not Durant. So I'm operating under those assumptions.)
   2380. sardonic Posted: May 26, 2019 at 06:37 PM (#5845827)
LOL. What a weird saga.

Patrick McCaw

@PMcCaw0
SAY WHAT YOU WANT 3 STRAIGHT NBA FINALS APPEARANCES?! I CAN'T MAKE THIS UP ... MY FAITH GOT ME HERE, NOTHING BUT GOD!!!
   2381. sardonic Posted: May 26, 2019 at 06:42 PM (#5845828)
Weird, I had a longer post with a couple links that keeps getting shortened... I did excerpt a couple paragraphs from an Athletic article.
   2382. sardonic Posted: May 26, 2019 at 06:44 PM (#5845830)
I wonder if the Warriors will trap Kawhi like they did Dame and Harden. From The Athletic:

But in Games 3 and 4 in Houston, Harden totaled 79 points on 61 shots. Eric Gordon was next in line with 37 shots in those two games. Then it was P.J. Tucker with 21, even more than Chris Paul.

After Game 4, the Warriors forced the other Rockets to produce by taking the ball out of Harden’s hands more often. For Games 5 and 6, Harden was down to a combined 41 shots. His field-goal percentage went way up, but it only amounted to 66 points over the two games. The Rockets offense was much more evenly distributed. Paul had 33 shots, Gordon 24, Clint Capela 21 and Tucker 17.


In Portland’s first 12 playoff games, Meyers Leonard took 30 total shots. In four games against the Warriors, he took 35. He made 21 of them, including 9 of 18 from 3, and it was an epic series for the maligned big man. But it also put the Blazers offense in incredibly unfamiliar territory.


"I think that Portland series is one of the best rounds of coaching I’ve seen from Steve (Kerr) that I’ve been a part of," Andrew Bogut said last week.

"We were changing up when we were blitzing at times. Like, sometimes we were just blitzing straight away. Sometimes we’d switch with Leonard and Lillard and then run off Lillard late. We did a great job of mixing it up. … Even though, at the end of the day, it still was a blitz. We were changing when we were doing it, how long we were doing it. Sometimes we’d blitz until a pass out. Sometimes we blitzed until he took one back step and then we left."


Then again, maybe this is the kind of stuff that doesn't matter in this series (though I think margins like that could have swung the ECF for the Bucks):

In the past eight Finals, only last season's Cavaliers were larger underdogs at the start than the Raptors.
   2383. tshipman Posted: May 26, 2019 at 08:42 PM (#5845843)
In the past eight Finals, only last season's Cavaliers were larger underdogs at the start than the Raptors.


That seriously surprises me.
   2384. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 26, 2019 at 09:00 PM (#5845847)
Surprised it isn't more. I mean that is basically a bunch of LeBron/Warriors series, a couple of LeBron/Spurs series, a LeBron/Thunder season... The only one I could see being close would be Mavs/Heat, but I seem to remember the Mavs getting a lot of respect in that one. Before that, I think you are looking at going back to Lakers/Magic? before you get one that would be close.
   2385. Moeball Posted: May 26, 2019 at 09:34 PM (#5845853)
Way back 2 years ago when the Spurs were running away from GS in G1 with a 20+ point lead at GS in the second half, it seemed that the real key was Kawhi almost single handedly disrupting the GS offense. Steph and Klay couldn't get open looks, largely because Draymond couldn't get any kind of transition game going, so it was all stagnant half court which played right into San Antonio's hands. Yes, Durant was there. Then, as we know, a Pechuliar thing happened, Kawhi got hurt, and GS immediately ran off something like 18 points in a row as soon as Kawhi was out. This got the W's back into the game and they went on to sweep the Spurs. So - is Kawhi capable of doing this again? He still looks pretty good defensively to me, but I'm thinking Kerr will have a better game plan this time around. If he doesn't, this series won't go well for GS. I think they have a deeper team than Toronto, but that won't matter much if they can't find a way to neutralize Leonard. And I think it's actually Kawhi's defense, not his offense, that will be the most critical thing for the Raptors. But, then, what do I know? I thought the C's would beat the Bucks and that Milwaukee would beat Toronto, so maybe I have no clue what's going on!
   2386. tshipman Posted: May 26, 2019 at 11:12 PM (#5845861)
Way back 2 years ago when the Spurs were running away from GS in G1 with a 20+ point lead at GS in the second half, it seemed that the real key was Kawhi almost single handedly disrupting the GS offense.


Golden State went 6/14 from 3 after the Kawhi injury, and were 5/16 before it.

Spurs went 0/6 from 3 after the Kawhi injury and were 7/16 before it.

The lead and subsequent comeback had much more to do with that than Kawhi's play.
   2387. Howie Menckel Posted: May 26, 2019 at 11:28 PM (#5845863)
this can't be right, but how far off it is with no LeBron? it's a nice list at a casual glance
:)

Josh Goldman
‏ @JoshtheGoldman
9h9 hours ago

Every Finals since Jordan has included Steph, Kobe, Wade or Duncan
99: Duncan
00: Kobe
01: Kobe
02: Kobe
03: Duncan
04: Kobe
05: Duncan
06: Wade
07: Duncan
08: Kobe
09: Kobe
10: Kobe
11: Wade
12: Wade
13: Wade
14: Wade
15: Steph
16: Steph
17: Steph
18: Steph
19: Steph
   2388. Booey Posted: May 26, 2019 at 11:41 PM (#5845864)
2013 and 2014 had Wade AND Duncan
   2389. Booey Posted: May 26, 2019 at 11:47 PM (#5845866)
We did something like this a few years ago, but you could replace Kobe with Derek Fisher, Wade with Udonis Haslem, and Steph with Shaun Livingston

Take away the 1999 Spurs so you can say that the last 20 Finals - every Finals of the 2000's - has featured the immortal Derek Fisher, Bruce Bowen, Udonis Haslem, or Shaun Livingston.

2000 - Fisher
2001 - Fisher
2002 - Fisher
2003 - Bowen
2004 - Fisher
2005 - Bowen
2006 - Haslem
2007 - Bowen
2008 - Fisher
2009 - Fisher
2010 - Fisher
2011 - Haslem
2012 - Haslem
2013 - Haslem
2014 - Haslem
2015 - Livingston
2016 - Livingston
2017 - Livingston
2018 - Livingston
2019 - Livingston
   2390. PJ Martinez Posted: May 27, 2019 at 08:23 AM (#5845872)
Golden State went 6/14 from 3 after the Kawhi injury, and were 5/16 before it.

Spurs went 0/6 from 3 after the Kawhi injury and were 7/16 before it.

The lead and subsequent comeback had much more to do with that than Kawhi's play.
I didn't watch that game, so I don't have a strong sense of what went down. But just looking at these numbers: aren't the first pair (GSW before and after) almost identical?* And wouldn't the Spurs before-after numbers be affected, perhaps dramatically, by losing their best scorer and one of their better three-point shooters, whose presence presumably helps other guys get open, by attracting defensive attention?

The idea that one could simply extract those numbers without any reference to Leonard's presence on the court seems dubious to me (again, without having seen the game -- maybe it's fairer than I realize).

* This is putting aside the question of whether San Antonio's best perimeter defender could affect those numbers, since I realize there's an argument that he wouldn't, and I'm not in a position to contest that argument.
   2391. Greg K Posted: May 27, 2019 at 08:27 AM (#5845873)
I think the argument is:

1] the narrative is that Leonard's defence stymied Golden State's offence, in particular their 3 point shooting.

but

2] Golden State's three point shooting wasn't that different before and after Leonard's exit. So Leonard had an influence on the game, but his influence didn't appear to be on the 3 point shooting.
   2392. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 27, 2019 at 09:19 AM (#5845874)
God, the Hornets are so ######.
   2393. Moeball Posted: May 27, 2019 at 11:14 AM (#5845883)
All I know is that the score was 78-55 when Kawhi went out, and GS immediately ran off 18 points in a row the instant he was out of the game. I don't think that's a coincidence.
   2394. Moeball Posted: May 27, 2019 at 11:22 AM (#5845888)
On another topic - what are anyone's thoughts on Klay's All-NBA snub? Looks like it will potentially cost him 30 million...
   2395. Booey Posted: May 27, 2019 at 11:31 AM (#5845892)
#2394 - That's another problem with the supermax; the media (or whoever does the voting) shouldn't be able to determine players earning potential.

That said, Thompson didn't deserve to make the All NBA team this year. All the players who did make it were legitimately better.

And I'm sure the Warriors are secretly happy that he didn't qualify for the supermax, just as I'll bet the Jazz and Blazers are secretly disappointed that Gobert and Lillard did. Why would any team be happy that they suddenly have to pay tens of millions more than they would have just to keep their star?
   2396. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 27, 2019 at 11:37 AM (#5845895)
I think they have a deeper team than Toronto

I think this is one of the least deep GS teams during their run.

I'm going to pick the Raps in 6, because it's what I want to see and picking the favorite just isn't fun anymore.

The lead and subsequent comeback had much more to do with that than Kawhi's play.

I'm with PJ; this is taking the 3pt variance gospel too far IMO. Then again, I still don't think SA wins that series even if Kawhi was healthy the whole time.
   2397. tshipman Posted: May 27, 2019 at 12:29 PM (#5845906)
I didn't watch that game, so I don't have a strong sense of what went down. But just looking at these numbers: aren't the first pair (GSW before and after) almost identical?*


No? One is 1.28 points per possession, and the other is .94 PPP.

And wouldn't the Spurs before-after numbers be affected, perhaps dramatically, by losing their best scorer and one of their better three-point shooters, whose presence presumably helps other guys get open, by attracting defensive attention?


The point is not that Kawhi's absence didn't hurt the Spurs. Of course it did. I doubt it specifically hurt their 3p shooting since the misses were from designated shooters like Mills and Green.

The point is that the large lead, and subsequent comeback had a lot to do with variance. The Spurs high-rolled to build the 20 point lead (Jonathon Simmons 2/3 from 3p), and then play regressed dramatically. The poster above said that Kawhi was "single-handedly" disrupting the Warriors' offense, which is the point I was arguing against.
   2398. PJ Martinez Posted: May 27, 2019 at 01:52 PM (#5845922)
The poster above said that Kawhi was "single-handedly" disrupting the Warriors' offense, which is the point I was arguing against.
Fair enough.
   2399. rr: target market for blowhard nonsense Posted: May 27, 2019 at 02:57 PM (#5845938)
flip
   2400. rr: target market for blowhard nonsense Posted: May 27, 2019 at 02:57 PM (#5845939)
saunders
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