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Tuesday, April 16, 2019

OT - NBA thread (Playoffs through off-season)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, and this one only cares about the NBA thread and the Cubs so I have no idea what the rest of the website cares about.

Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: April 16, 2019 at 02:18 PM | 6754 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   2401. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 27, 2019 at 03:02 PM (#5845940)
flip

saunders

Still dead.
   2402. rr: target market for blowhard nonsense Posted: May 27, 2019 at 03:05 PM (#5845942)
On another topic - what are anyone's thoughts on Klay's All-NBA snub? Looks like it will potentially cost him 30 million...


Two guys at a Lakers site were arguing about Thompson yesterday. One guy was saying that Thompson is nothing special and only looks good next to Curry, and the other guy was saying that Thompson has actually sacrificed having bigger numbers than he could have on another team to do what Golden State needs him to do, and that he is better than many of his numbers suggest. The latter presumably is how Thompson himself sees it. Since Moses and Der K weren't there, I didn't take any of it seriously, but it is kind of an interesting question going into the Finals and with Thompson being an UFA. My personal opinion is that Thompson is a good/very good, not great, and would stay that way somewhere else. I do think the shape of his numbers would change some away from Curry but not his value.
   2403. rr: target market for blowhard nonsense Posted: May 27, 2019 at 03:06 PM (#5845943)
Still dead.


But not forgotten. I always liked Saunders.
   2404. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 27, 2019 at 03:16 PM (#5845948)
But not forgotten. I always liked Saunders.

Yeah, he seemed like a righteous dude.

I assume that every team with cap space will make an offer for Thompson? I can't think of a single situation in the league that couldn't accommodate his skills.
   2405. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 27, 2019 at 04:12 PM (#5845967)
I think it's very fair to say that losing Kawhi against GSW made the Spurs several points worse per game (although you may recall that that year there were a bunch of thinkpieces published because Kawhi's defensive on/off was unusually bad). You can't really point to any stat in a one game sample and call it the way those several points showed up. But I do think it's reasonable to assert that losing him may have had some psychological effect for that game, especially once the run started, and also that Popovich had cooked up a game plan that assumed Leonard was available which then fell apart without him.

They did lose games 2-4 by a combined 62 points and it's hard to see Kawhi changing any of those games, but probably if he doesn't get injured they win game 1 and it gets them to game 5 instead of not getting them there (obviously still a very unlikely thing to pull out).
   2406. Tin Angel Posted: May 27, 2019 at 04:13 PM (#5845968)
Would people really take Bradley Beal on their team over Thompson?
   2407. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 27, 2019 at 04:23 PM (#5845975)
Since Moses and Der K weren't there, I didn't take any of it seriously


<golf clap>
   2408. rr: target market for blowhard nonsense Posted: May 27, 2019 at 06:28 PM (#5846010)
2406:

Thompson is 3+ years older than Beal, with a lot more mileage due to playing in the Finals every year, and is not better than Beal by many of the basic metrics. Thompson's DBPM numbers are not very good at all (this was one of the points the anti-Thompson guy was making in the argument yesterday).

I personally think that Thompson is a very good player, and I have never been a huge Beal fan (I think there is a pretty good chance that he will be on the Lakers next year if they miss on Irving and Butler) but I think it is an open question, depending on team needs.
   2409. sardonic Posted: May 27, 2019 at 08:27 PM (#5846030)
I think Klay is pretty fairly rated. Borderline 3rd team All NBA guy, with skills that play up because of how easily they could fit into different schemes (shooting, off ball movement and on ball and team defense) and strong intangibles (team player, happy to be the third banana). Even Warriors fans on Golden State of Mind stick up for him in terms of All NBA but acknowledge that Kemba is also a deserving player, especially given his role. Plus, he's been extremely durable in his career.

You can pay Klay the max and have him be part of a championship team/contender. That puts him in the top 30 in the league or so, so I fundamentally agree with this:

I assume that every team with cap space will make an offer for Thompson? I can't think of a single situation in the league that couldn't accommodate his skills.
   2410. tshipman Posted: May 27, 2019 at 11:39 PM (#5846046)
I think the floor raiser/ceiling lifter paradigm is really helpful to talk about Thompson and Beal.

Beal has a much broader range of skills and is better at creating a shot for himself and for others. If you're signing a guy to be the second best player on your team, Beal is a better fit (although you're probably not a championship contender).

Klay has a few skills that are elite. His off-ball movement and shooting are best in the league levels, and his on-ball defense is consistently very good. If you are signing a guy to be the third best player on a championship team, Klay is a better option for that than Bradley Beal.
   2411. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 28, 2019 at 12:43 AM (#5846052)
The guard/wing upper middle class of free agents, plus Beal. How would you order these dudes? (Klay, Beal, Middleton, T. Harris, Walker)
   2412. sardonic Posted: May 28, 2019 at 01:35 AM (#5846057)
Klay had a down year this year, which is why I feel like he didn't really deserve All NBA on the basis of this year alone, I'd go Kemba, Beal, Klay, Middleton, Harris. Just for next year, I'd say:

Kemba, then Beal and Klay are in a tier together, with Kemba being more a primary ball handler/initiator, Klay being more of an elite complementary player, and Beal being in between. Kemba is the best best player on a team of the three, but Klay is the best 3rd banana, if that makes sense. If I'm starting a team from scratch, I'm picking Kemba first for sure.

Middleton is in the middle, then Harris is at the bottom given that outside of this year he's clearly below the others.

Out of the major contenders this year, if you could pick Kemba to replace your PG or Beal/Klay to replace your starting SG, I think:

- Warriors would keep Klay
- Raptors would probably pick Klay to replace Danny Green over a Kemba/Lowry or Beal/DG swap
- Bucks would definitely swap Bledsoe for Kemba
- Blazers would probably pick Beal over CJ
- Rockets would pick Klay to replace Eric Gordon (is a Kemba for CP3 swap too spicy?)
- Sixers would pick Klay to replace JJ Redick (is Kemba over Simmons too spicy?)


That said, by age, it's:

28: Kemba, Klay
27: Khris Middleton
26: Tobias Harris
25: Beal (wow, didn't realize he was so young)

So if we're picking who to give a 4-5 year deal, I think being 30 at the end is a lot better than being 33, so I'd let that be the tiebreaker and put Beal alone at the top.
   2413. rr: target market for blowhard nonsense Posted: May 28, 2019 at 02:08 AM (#5846058)
2412--good post, but Thompson and Walker are actually both 29. Thompson was born in Feb 1990 and Walker turned 29 twenty days ago. Beal turns 26 June 28.
   2414. sardonic Posted: May 28, 2019 at 02:18 AM (#5846059)
Ah good catch, I was just going with their ages in BB-Ref next to their reg season results. Same principle I think though.
   2415. it's hittin' 53450n. Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:52 AM (#5846099)
The guard/wing upper middle class of free agents, plus Beal. How would you order these dudes? (Klay, Beal, Middleton, T. Harris, Walker)

in order of preference:
beal
jrue (he's a personal favorite)
middleton
klay
porter (also a personal favorite of mine)
kemba
brogdon (why the hell not)
lavine (needs to be in the conversation)
mccollum (he needs to be in this conversation)
don't google (he also needs to be in this conversation)
tharris
evan turner
- Sixers would pick Klay to replace JJ Redick (is Kemba over Simmons too spicy?)

because of kemba's size, age and lack of experience, he's not a clear upgrade over simmons.

otoh, if the sixers can get in the room with kyrie this summer, that would get spicy.
   2416. it's hittin' 53450n. Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:54 AM (#5846101)
because of kemba's size, age and lack of playoff experience, he's not a clear upgrade over simmons.
i still can't edit posts, so i'll put this correction here.
   2417. it's hittin' 53450n. Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:59 AM (#5846102)
also, for shits and giggles:

i'd put harrison barnes below tharris.
i'd put buddy hield above don't google.
i'd put demarr derozan below hield.
wiggins goes below don't google.
marcus smart goes below evan turner
dinwiddie goes below brogdon.
dangelo goes above lavine.
   2418. it's hittin' 53450n. Posted: May 28, 2019 at 10:41 AM (#5846116)
also, w/r/t the NBA finals:

if i'm TOR, i'd use these defensive assignments against the hamptons five:
curry - green
klay - lowry
durant - kawhi
iguodala - siakam
draymond - ibaka

(until durant gets back, i'd use siakam on draymond and put kawhi on iguodala)


i don't think people appreciate how big a risk it is for TOR to put kawhi on curry. if TOR does that, GSW can run their offense through iguodala, and force kawhi to defend curry off the ball and chase curry through screen after screen after screen for 48 minutes. after watching kawhi for the last month, i'm not going to say that there's anything he can't do...but he can't do that.

let curry get his; let klay get his; just shut down the secondary actions (draymond, iguodala, offensive rebounding) until durant gets back.
   2419. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 28, 2019 at 10:42 AM (#5846117)
FVV has done a good job against Curry in the past; he's got the motor and the strength to bother Steph. It's still a thankless task, but the Barneys do at least have some bodies they can throw at him.
   2420. sardonic Posted: May 28, 2019 at 10:46 AM (#5846119)
I think the obvious move is to put Kawhi on Draymond when it counts so that he can neutralize the Curry Green pnr. It's a concern for me.
   2421. jmurph Posted: May 28, 2019 at 12:12 PM (#5846157)
I think the obvious move is to put Kawhi on Draymond when it counts so that he can neutralize the Curry Green pnr. It's a concern for me.

This also seems like the smart choice to me.
   2422. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 28, 2019 at 01:59 PM (#5846193)
There's a lot of weird garbage in this Lakers takedown on ESPN. As with all types of these stories, I'm sure there's a mixture of truth and axe-grinding. I only bring it up because of this passage:

Still, multiple rival NBA executives have noted the unique nature of the Lakers -- that they are a family-owned, family-operated franchise, the only one of its kind in the league. And the familial nature of the franchise can be seen through many of its hirings; the team has employed many of those with deep ties to its past, such as Pelinka, Johnson, Walton, Jerry West and Mitch Kupchak.


Maybe they're hanging their hat on something specific about the ownership structure, because that basically also describes the Bulls. The Bulls have multiple partners in their ownership group, but it's run exclusively by Jerry Reinsdorf - and always has been since he bought them ~35 years ago; his son is now the CEO or whatever title they've given him. Their front office is entirely ex-Bulls or lifers; the coaching staff throughout the years (and several ex-coaches) is always littered with ex-Bulls - and not always the notable ones. I think that is part of the reason that both of these teams might be struggling to keep up with changes in the league.
   2423. jmurph Posted: May 28, 2019 at 02:40 PM (#5846202)
This was easily my favorite part of that article:
"There was one time when Kobe, who I worked with for 18 years, was going back to play in Madison Square Garden, and he had just seen 'The Dark Knight,'" Pelinka said. "Obviously, you guys saw that movie, and he's like, 'Hey, hook me up with dinner with Heath Ledger, because he got so locked into that role. I want to know how he mentally went there.' So, he had dinner with Heath, and he talked about how he locks in for a role.

"And Kobe used some of that in his game against the Knicks."

"The Dark Knight" was released in July 2008, six months after Ledger died. A source with direct knowledge said no such arrangement was made and no dinner ever took place.
   2424. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 02:43 PM (#5846204)
[2423] Yeah...that...that was *chef's kiss*
   2425. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 28, 2019 at 02:45 PM (#5846206)
I mean, if you're gonna do a hatchet job ... that's the way to go about it.
   2426. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: May 28, 2019 at 02:56 PM (#5846211)
I'm here for all the Lakers dragging. It's really weird that my Sports Haters Heart never really had much hate for the Lakers or LeBron separately, but something about this year and their marriage made them move toward the top of my list.
   2427. JC in DC Posted: May 28, 2019 at 03:24 PM (#5846223)
[2422] I'm not sure exactly what you mean by "weird garbage," but if you mean there's a lot of nothing in the article, I kinda agree. Much of that seems to stitch together stuff we know or could intuit (Magic + Pelinka wasn't going to save the Lakers) with what strikes me as pretty typical modern NBA stuff (agents with too much access, star player having great leverage, staff, players, and coaches being unhappy in a losing situation). I'm not really sure what, if anything, is really interesting in that article, aside from Rob Pelinka lying about meeting the Joker. Cute "gotcha," but our President just told more and better lies while I was typing this.
   2428. jmurph Posted: May 28, 2019 at 03:53 PM (#5846231)
If you can't laugh at the GM of the Lakers making up a story about setting up Kobe with a dead guy, I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree.
   2429. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 04:10 PM (#5846233)
[2428] It's not just that he made up the story about being instrumental to Kobe meeting the dead guy...it really goes to a special place, for me, when he attributes Kobe's subsequent success directly to meeting the dead guy. You hate to see it.
   2430. JC in DC Posted: May 28, 2019 at 04:11 PM (#5846234)
I suspect the "of the Lakers" part is doing a lot of work in that regard. But I don't really find it funny. He did what tons of people do in public: exaggerated to no apparent effect. And, I might point out that people in Hollywood routinely see movies before they're released. I don't know if that explains this or not, but the story just didn't move me for lots of reasons, including the possibility that the story might be close to true.
   2431. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: May 28, 2019 at 04:18 PM (#5846235)
Marc Stein's new newsletter is him talking with Adam Silver about ways to spice up the NBA calendar, either with something like a mid-season tournament, or a "play-in" tournament for the final playoff spots.

I think something SHOULD be done here, because 82-games plus 3 months of playoffs for one title, when only three or four teams seem to have a real shot, and an incentive structure that rewards losing for the majority of those non-contenders, doesn't feel like an ideal way to do things.

But I can't really come up with any good alternatives.
   2432. it's hittin' 53450n. Posted: May 28, 2019 at 04:30 PM (#5846240)
If you can't laugh at the GM of the Lakers making up a story about setting up Kobe with a dead guy, I'm afraid we're going to have to agree to disagree.
i don't know how this guy still has a job in basketball.

i mean, i do know, but jesus.


at least the guy didn't pretend to be a disabled homosexual parking lot attendant who worked 20 hours a day (but still had plenty of time to shitpost joel embiid online).
   2433. sardonic Posted: May 28, 2019 at 04:34 PM (#5846241)
Kawhi on Draymond also helps neutralize the Warriors transition game, which is a big part of their identity on offense. The Raptors did a great job of this against Milwaukee too, another lethal transition team. Toronto does match up really well on defense against the Warriors without KD. Having Kawhi helps a lot.
   2434. sardonic Posted: May 28, 2019 at 04:43 PM (#5846246)
Also, I'm not too good to have a chuckle at the Lakers' expense while they're down. It's been a long time coming.
   2435. RJ in TO Posted: May 28, 2019 at 04:47 PM (#5846247)
And, I might point out that people in Hollywood routinely see movies before they're released. I don't know if that explains this or not, but the story just didn't move me for lots of reasons, including the possibility that the story might be close to true.
Ledger was dead six months before the movie was released, when it was apparently still only halfway through being edited. So there wasn't a complete movie to watch at the time when Ledger was still alive.
   2436. JC in DC Posted: May 28, 2019 at 04:56 PM (#5846249)
As I said, I don't know if that explains this or not, but the story just didn't move me for lots of reasons, including the possibility that the story might be close to true.
   2437. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 28, 2019 at 05:03 PM (#5846251)
i don't know how this guy still has a job in basketball.
I don't know how this guy still has a job RUNNING THE LOS ANGELES LAKERS.

FFS.
   2438. JJ1986 Posted: May 28, 2019 at 05:11 PM (#5846252)
The Lakers played at the Knicks on December 23, 2007. Ledger was still alive, but I seriously doubt the movie was ready for anyone to see at that point.
   2439. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: May 28, 2019 at 05:22 PM (#5846256)
I'd like to hear a Raps fan talk about Anunoby's defense this year - I didn't think he was as good as his DRPM last year but he definitely looks better than his terrible numbers this year. If he returns during the series (as is considered ... likely(?)) - and is dialed in on defense - he could be a valuable body to throw into the mix.

Rob Pelinka appears to be terrible at his job; full stop.
   2440. DCA Posted: May 28, 2019 at 05:25 PM (#5846257)
IIRC, Ledger was getting a lot of positive buzz for his performance well before the movie was released. As JC says, it's quite possible the anecdote is mostly true. The likely exception being that Kobe hadn't seen the movie yet (because it didn't exist). Maybe he just heard the buzz or saw a few scenes. Long after the fact, when Kobe and Pelinka and everyone else has seen the film, it's easy to muddle the timeline.
   2441. Tin Angel Posted: May 28, 2019 at 05:32 PM (#5846260)
I don't know how this guy still has a job RUNNING THE LOS ANGELES LAKERS.


Start an online petition to replace Jeannie and Pelinka with Der-K and Moses.
   2442. Paul D(uda) Posted: May 28, 2019 at 07:26 PM (#5846279)
Anunoby basically had a lost year, between his personal problems and physical ones. I would not expect him to return and be effective this year
   2443. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: May 28, 2019 at 07:36 PM (#5846281)
Good luck to the Raptors and their fans against the beast that is GS. No gentleman's sweep people!
   2444. tshipman Posted: May 28, 2019 at 08:58 PM (#5846298)
Rob Pelinka appears to be terrible at his job; full stop.


Hot take:
I think Pelinka has been mostly good. Most of the stupid decisions were Magic, and Pelinka has done a great job with the cap.

The only actual BAD decision was the Rondo deal.
   2445. rr: target market for blowhard nonsense Posted: May 28, 2019 at 09:12 PM (#5846301)
Rob Pelinka appears to be terrible at his job; full stop.


Quite possibly, but I don't think we know yet. This comes down to three things for the Lakers and their fans:

1. Whether the "Mom and Pop Store" model (the term Jerry Buss himself used, with pride) has put the Lakers behind the curve in the areas of analytics, injury prevention, and international scouting. Moses's point about the Reinsdorfs is ofc relevant here. I should note that Joey Buss runs the Lakers'GLeague affiliate and and that Jesse Buss and Ryan West are both "Assistant GMs" and involved in the draft and scouting, and even the people in the fanbase who are apoplectic about Jeanie and Magic like the other Busses and R. West and want them running more stuff. Kirk Lacob is an AGM with Golden State; he has relevant degrees and is probably qualified, but it is still nepotism, and I have not heard many people complaining.

2. As I noted at the time, facing a crisis and years of losing, Jeanie did not make a conventional 2019-style hire, as Atlanta did last year and Minnesota did this month. Instead, she hired a Lakers Legend with whom she is personally close and Kobe Bryant's agent, neither of whom had any previous NBA FO experience. Her Dad made somewhat similar hires way BITD when he hired Jerry West, Pat Riley and Mitch Kupchak, so the problem with the Magic hire is partly that there was no process, partly that it is 2019, not 1979, and partly that Magic, unlike Jerry West, has neither the work ethic nor the personality to be a POBO, whereas Jerry West obviously did and, aside from being 80, probably still does. Jeanie, as Magic's "sister", should have known this about him, and hired him in a consultant/ambassador/recruiter role suitable to his skillset and personality. The recent weirdness with Magic is IMO ultimately on Jeanie for giving him the gig.
And now, facing a new crisis, Jeanie seemingly did the exact same thing, apparently leaning on Linda and Kurt Rambis, and Phil Jackson, and just leaving Pelinka in place while giving him more power. If it does not work this time, IMO she will either need to sell the team (almost certainly not happening) or hire a qualified guy from outside the org and give him full control of basketball ops.

3. The Heath Ledger thing makes Pelinka look silly, assuming that Holmes' version in the story is accurate, but I am comfortable saying that any guy who was Kobe Bryant's agent for a long time and has Bryant's trust is probably reasonably smart and almost certainly works very hard. One of the sources of the trouble, supposedly, was Pelinka being pissed off that Magic didn't put in the time but still wanted to make all the decisions. The only thing Magic has owned in this whole thing is that the decision to blow off Brook Lopez was Magic's call and that it was a mistake. If Pelinka/James et al can get Leonard here (seems unlikely) or even Irving, Butler or Walker, (seems more likely) make a couple of good moves at the margins, leverage the #4 pick, and if James, Ball and Ingram can all play 70-75 games at the top of their reasonable performance ranges, then this could all look different pretty quick. That is obviously a lot of "ifs", like with any team that is in bad shape, but as I said earlier, having James, the #4 pick, a lot of cap space is not that bad of a place to be, even if James is turning 35 in December. That does not solve the long-term issues, if they are in fact that bad, but I am not going to assume that Pelinka is a clown who will fail.
   2446. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 28, 2019 at 10:23 PM (#5846337)
I am looking forward to being able to look down on the Lakers organization; but, we're not there yet. There's no Joe Smith in the Lakers.
   2447. Oriole Tragic didn't have the teams Lebron had Posted: May 28, 2019 at 11:16 PM (#5846357)
Start an online petition to replace Jeannie and Pelinka with Der-K and Moses.
I love how this becoming a thing. Hilarious.

Because I don't watch the games, and need something besides Orioles games to listen to while doing dishes, I've been listening to Ringer content including Bill 'n' Ryen's Excellent Adventure.

I feel like Simmons is going off the rails, even for him. He's now trying to talk Russillo into selling on all of Giannis and the Bucks, the Raptors, the C's, and he's doubling down on the Sixers as the rightful EC rep in the Finals. He went so hard after Giannis that Russillo had to explicitly tell Simmons he's not going there with him.

I mean, Simmons wrote a book and stuff (as he reminds us every pod), and he's successful in media, so he should know how to be thoughtful, right. And I think Simmons was actually the best version of himself as recently as maybe a couple seasons ago, but his approach this year make me think he's bored or something. Now his takes are accelerating into local sports radio territory and even making mistakes (like the Dolan-selling-the-team thing.)

Multiple people have suggested to Simmons that he update his 10-year-old book, but he doesn't seem interested. I think it'd be a good exercise for him. It almost seems like he really doesn't dig hoops anymore.

I get that it really doesn't matter what I'm saying here, so I'm hoping that someone more respectable (namely Moses and Der-K) will pick this up.

I guess I think it's important because Simmons is one of the few NBA commentators that is (or can be) close to, oh, somebody like A.O. Scott, even if only in influence and not in gravitas.
   2448. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 29, 2019 at 12:03 AM (#5846369)
I think Pelinka has been mostly good. Most of the stupid decisions were Magic, and Pelinka has done a great job with the cap.


Sincere curiosity: how do we know which decisions were made by whom?
   2449. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: May 29, 2019 at 01:49 AM (#5846379)
Start an online petition to replace Jeannie and Pelinka with Der-K and Moses.
I love how this becoming a thing. Hilarious.
It's not hilarious, it's serious. You’re weak. Shut the #### up.
   2450. it's hittin' 53450n. Posted: May 29, 2019 at 07:28 AM (#5846385)
I feel like Simmons is going off the rails, even for him. He's now trying to talk Russillo into selling on all of Giannis and the Bucks, the Raptors, the C's, and he's doubling down on the Sixers as the rightful EC rep in the Finals.

that is deep and true.

Multiple people have suggested to Simmons that he update his 10-year-old book, but he doesn't seem interested. I think it'd be a good exercise for him. It almost seems like he really doesn't dig hoops anymore.

we all get that way from time to time. hell, i estimate 10-12 of us only ever come to this baseball website anymore because of the NBA playoffs thread.

humans are weird.
   2451. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: May 29, 2019 at 07:47 AM (#5846387)
And I think Simmons was actually the best version of himself as recently as maybe a couple seasons ago, but his approach this year make me think he's bored or something. Now his takes are accelerating into local sports radio territory and even making mistakes (like the Dolan-selling-the-team thing.)

Hot take: Simmons has been spending too much time talking to Francesa.
   2452. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: May 29, 2019 at 08:31 AM (#5846392)
Hot take: Simmons has been spending too much time talking to Francesa.


Maybe Boston's won too much and it's warped his sense of reality? Like, you lose track of the fact that a team should have a roughly 1/32 shot at a Super Bowl when it's won the thing seemingly every other year.
   2453. Steve Parris, Je t'aime Posted: May 29, 2019 at 08:45 AM (#5846394)
I've always enjoyed Simmons because I never take him too seriously. Celts will win 67 games? Sure, big guy! His takes are entertaining enough and I like how Russillo is able to call him on his extremes ... they're a good pairing.

(like the Dolan-selling-the-team thing.)

Was this debunked? I'm guessing this is something that can never really be proven one way or the other. Dolan may have very well had preliminary conversations on selling the team - and given its value, he'd be stupid not to.
   2454. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: May 29, 2019 at 09:23 AM (#5846404)
Re: Simmmons

1. I believe him over Dolan on the Knicks sale thing and there's no real way to prove it.

2. On the one hand I enjoy that Russillo will definitely call him on some of the careening from one extreme to the other that he does. On the other, Russillo can be deliberately anti-intellectual in a way that I know is trolling, but still irks me.

3. The last pod he did with a couple of the Ringer guys where they discussed All-NBA picks was the first one he's done with Ringer people that was actually tolerable because of the fact that they called him on his ####.
   2455. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: May 29, 2019 at 10:12 AM (#5846420)
My new favorite Simmons thing is when he's cornered and turns to "The history of the league says..."
   2456. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 29, 2019 at 11:07 AM (#5846445)
I get that it really doesn't matter what I'm saying here, so I'm hoping that someone more respectable (namely Moses and Der-K) will pick this up.

I gave up on Simmons a few years ago, maybe shortly after The Ringer. I've never been a podcast guy, and at some point he went away from writing to that and that's where he lost me. I also eventually stopped following him on twitter at some point.
   2457. sardonic Posted: May 29, 2019 at 11:12 AM (#5846449)
I'd like to hear a Raps fan talk about Anunoby's defense this year - I didn't think he was as good as his DRPM last year but he definitely looks better than his terrible numbers this year. If he returns during the series (as is considered ... likely(?)) - and is dialed in on defense - he could be a valuable body to throw into the mix.


Blake Murphy said in his Athletic preview that OG is "at least 3 games away" and not expected to play a large role in the series, FWIW.
   2458. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 29, 2019 at 11:54 AM (#5846467)
I gave up on Simmons a few years ago, maybe shortly after The Ringer. I've never been a podcast guy, and at some point he went away from writing to that and that's where he lost me.


This is where I am too, though I don't think we can consider the matter settled until Der-K weighs in.
   2459. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 29, 2019 at 12:11 PM (#5846475)
Adrian Wojnarowski @wojespn 36m36 minutes ago

Sources: In calls to front offices, Houston GM Daryl Morey is showing an aggressive desire to improve roster with all players and picks available in talks. Hard to imagine James Harden scenario, but the rest under contract - perhaps even Chris Paul - could be moved in right deal.


I doubt there's a huge market for CP's contract:
Bobby Marks @BobbyMarks42 3m3 minutes ago

Cap hit on the Chris Paul contract:

19/20 $38.5M

20/21 $41.4M

21/22 $44.2M
   2460. sardonic Posted: May 29, 2019 at 12:40 PM (#5846483)
The Rockets fan dream scenario is ending up with Jimmy Butler somehow. But yeah, I just don't see how they can get off CP3's contract, or even if they do somehow, how that could possibly leave them with enough space to sign another max FA.
   2461. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: May 29, 2019 at 12:47 PM (#5846486)
I gave up on Simmons years ago. Enjoyed his basketball book, though!
   2462. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: May 29, 2019 at 12:53 PM (#5846489)
The Simmons podcast can get some interesting guests so I check it out. The Rewatchables podcast is kind of absurd but exposes me to movies I have heard about but not taken the time to check out. The Ringer baseball podcast is pretty solid especially when the Baumann guy does one of his rants which is pretty spot on or talks about college baseball. I dig people with weird passions.

Podcasts are like the perfect medium. You control the action, it can be done anywhere, anytime and you get to pick the discussion to hear.
   2463. it's hittin' 53450n. Posted: May 29, 2019 at 01:06 PM (#5846496)
The Rockets fan dream scenario is ending up with Jimmy Butler somehow. But yeah, I just don't see how they can get off CP3's contract, or even if they do somehow, how that could possibly leave them with enough space to sign another max FA.
butler could opt in and force a trade to HOU for eric gordon...which is the way HOU was able to get chris paul in the first place.

UTA would be a good landing spot for CP...and they have the contracts to send the other way. maybe they call up MEM to get a 3-way together:

HOU: mike conley, kyle korver
MEM: derrick favors, dante exum, grayson tedcruz
UTA: chris paul
   2464. Fourth True Outcome Posted: May 29, 2019 at 01:10 PM (#5846499)
Man oh man, Butler opting in and forcing a trade out of Philly would be WILD. I'm not sure Embiid would react the same way KAT did if Jimmy Buckets tried to make a point in practice, though.
   2465. Rally Posted: May 29, 2019 at 01:41 PM (#5846516)
I doubt there's a huge market for CP's contract:


As great as CP3 is, he's got to have negative trade value now. Averages 60 games a year, hasn't played 2000 minutes in last 3 years, big drop in FG% and WS48 last year. About to turn 34 with a lot of miles on him.

I guess they might find a taker who gambles that CP3 has enough left to put them over the top in year 1, and if so they'll be OK with being stuck with the 40+ million in years 2-3.
   2466. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 29, 2019 at 02:25 PM (#5846537)
I guess they might find a taker who gambles that CP3 has enough left to put them over the top in year 1, and if so they'll be OK with being stuck with the 40+ million in years 2-3.

"Hello, Vlade? It's Daryl. Hold onto your shorts, have I got an idea for you!"
   2467. sardonic Posted: May 29, 2019 at 03:07 PM (#5846557)
I guess they might find a taker who gambles that CP3 has enough left to put them over the top in year 1, and if so they'll be OK with being stuck with the 40+ million in years 2-3.


"Hi, Rob? There's this guy you've just GOT to invite to dinner with Kobe. He's intense, and his game definitely didn't die 6 months ago!"
   2468. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: May 29, 2019 at 03:33 PM (#5846569)
"Hi, Rob? There's this guy you've just GOT to invite to dinner with Kobe. He's intense, and his game definitely didn't die 6 months ago!"

Or, yeah, this.
   2469. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 29, 2019 at 03:50 PM (#5846578)
That Woj quote feels like it was ghostwritten by Morey.
   2470. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: May 29, 2019 at 04:23 PM (#5846598)
Am I alone in thinking it's really weird Silver would confirm the Luke/Rich Paul dinner story like that?
   2471. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: May 29, 2019 at 04:28 PM (#5846601)

IIRC, Ledger was getting a lot of positive buzz for his performance well before the movie was released. As JC says, it's quite possible the anecdote is mostly true. The likely exception being that Kobe hadn't seen the movie yet (because it didn't exist). Maybe he just heard the buzz or saw a few scenes. Long after the fact, when Kobe and Pelinka and everyone else has seen the film, it's easy to muddle the timeline.


What I've seen is that the first trailer came out in December 2007 and that is when people started to get excited about Ledger's performance, based on those scenes. It wouldn't be hard to forget it was the trailer that triggered the event rather than the full movie.
   2472. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: May 29, 2019 at 04:38 PM (#5846604)
Blake Murphy @BlakeMurphyODC

OG Anunoby has been upgraded to questionable for tomorrow.


---

2471 passes the sniff test for me. IIRC, I'm pretty sure he was getting Oscar buzz before he died, and his death only intensified it.
   2473. Oriole Tragic didn't have the teams Lebron had Posted: May 29, 2019 at 06:09 PM (#5846620)
The Rockets fan dream scenario is ending up with Jimmy Butler somehow.
Does Morey need to pull off something like this in order to keep his stock sky-high around here, or is just dumping CP3's paper good enough?

Or is everybody is still all-in on him, and we're chalking it up to bad luck or GSW just being too good or variance not working in the playoffs or whatever? I really do want to know what people think.

Like maybe he's still amazing, but he should bounce to the Lakers or the Wizards for his own good?
   2474. rr: target market for blowhard nonsense Posted: May 29, 2019 at 06:45 PM (#5846622)
I am not all-in on anybody except Moses and Der K, but I respect Morey' s work. I like that he tried to beat GS and it is not his fault that GS has one of the best four-man cores in league history. And I respect that Morey will keep pushing during Harden's window.
   2475. smileyy Posted: May 30, 2019 at 12:19 AM (#5846702)
Andre Iguodala makes (made?) for a pretty fearsome 5th banana.
   2476. tshipman Posted: May 30, 2019 at 01:04 AM (#5846710)
Does Morey need to pull off something like this in order to keep his stock sky-high around here, or is just dumping CP3's paper good enough?

Or is everybody is still all-in on him, and we're chalking it up to bad luck or GSW just being too good or variance not working in the playoffs or whatever? I really do want to know what people think.


Morey is like the 5th-7th (?) best GM in basketball. He's never made the Finals, and the best guy he's ever drafted is probably Clint Capela (the second best is ... yeesh ... Patrick Patterson?). He has some good trades, some good FA signings.

Clearly better:
San Antonio Blob
Danny Ainge
Pat Riley (although some of that is ancient history)
Sam Presti

Same Tier:
Masai Ujiri
Donn Nelson
Bob Myers

Has an argument:
Kevin Pritchard
Neil Olshey
David Griffin
Mitch Kupchak

Not technically an executive, but clearly the best executive in basketball:
Jerry West
   2477. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 30, 2019 at 01:46 AM (#5846718)
I don't see how you can simultaneously believe that Current Pat Riley is a top-four GM and Erik Spoelstra is a top-three coach. (I would be on team Spo).

What has Riley done in the past 10 years other than get LeBron to come (which might have been Miami and Wade anyway)? Yeah, that makes up for a lot and delivered two chips, but man, their roster now is a bloated tire fire.
   2478. jmurph Posted: May 30, 2019 at 06:38 AM (#5846720)
Can't win on their own, SMH. Who's gonna be the alpha?! There's only one ball!
   2479. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: May 30, 2019 at 07:11 AM (#5846721)
I think Masai, Morey, and Ainge, in some order, represent the top tier of NBA GMs. Would not have Pat Riley anywhere near there.
   2480. sardonic Posted: May 30, 2019 at 09:45 AM (#5846739)
BTF RT:

Steve Kerr: Kevin Durant cleared for individual court work

Kerr also wants him to get a full practice in, so looks like there's a good chance he'll be back for Game 3.
   2481. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: May 30, 2019 at 09:54 AM (#5846740)
2477: co-sign on riley/spo

the older i get, the harder i find it is to grade members of an organization's management. like, thinking back to pelinka and magic - i don't know who to blame for what. i do know that i like very little of what that org has chosen to do but how to parse that? dunno. (they didn't destroy their cap, sure, but that's a low bar.)

i don't know where i'd rank morey, but he minimally has a top 5 gm argument. he/they(hou) have demonstrated skills at pulling off big deals, winning small ones, and at player identification and development. the chris paul deal was an overpay that i think will hurt them for awhile but i get pushing your chips in then - even with the warriors a juggernaut.
   2482. jmurph Posted: May 30, 2019 at 09:56 AM (#5846741)
I'm sure Pelinka appreciates everyone's generosity here in trying to explain away that story, but Holmes very specifically reported that no such meeting ever took place:
A source with direct knowledge said no such arrangement was made and no dinner ever took place.
   2483. jmurph Posted: May 30, 2019 at 09:58 AM (#5846744)
I don't see how you can simultaneously believe that Current Pat Riley is a top-four GM and Erik Spoelstra is a top-three coach. (I would be on team Spo).

This same argument applies to Dallas, too. If Carlisle is a great coach, which is a widely held opinion, then the Mavs front office is one of the worst in the league.
   2484. Davo Posted: May 30, 2019 at 09:58 AM (#5846745)
2 questions from a newbie

1. In the MLB postseason, teams have to set their 25-man roster before each series begins, and they’re basically locked in to that for the whole series. Does the NBA work that way too? I’m asking specifically in connection to the injured players (Durant and Cousins).

2. If the Raptors win the Finals, where about would this rank on the list of biggest upsets in NBA Finals history?
   2485. sardonic Posted: May 30, 2019 at 10:07 AM (#5846747)
I think Masai, Morey, and Ainge, in some order, represent the top tier of NBA GMs. Would not have Pat Riley anywhere near there.


I know that the Warriors dynasty seems inevitable in retrospect, but I think you gotta put Myers up there. He inherited Steph Curry and Klay Thompson (though he was Assistant GM when they were brought in), but he put the entire rest of the Warriors title rotation in place around them via draft (Draymond, Barnes, Ezeli), FA (Iguodala, Livingston) and trades (Bogut) along with their coach.

Draft
From 2012 onward, he had a total of 6 first round picks (7th overall, and then 5 picks from 28 to 30) and 4 second rounders, and turned them into a star in Draymond Green (DPOY, All NBA, 3-time All Star), a solid starter in Harrison Barnes (started for an NBA title team, signed a 4 year, $94M contract), two solid rotation players: Festus Ezeli, Kevon Looney, and two fringe rotation players (Jordan Bell, Patrick McCaw) and a couple projects who still have a shot (Damian Jones and Jacob Evans).

FA
In free agency he signed two key pieces in Andre Iguodala and Shaun Livingston to good contracts.

Trades
He traded Monta Ellis for an injured Andrew Bogut, and didn't trade Klay Thompson for Kevin Love.

Coaching
He fired Mark Jackson and hired Steve Kerr.

That's without giving him any credit for KD or DeMarcus Cousins.


Draft History:

2012
1-07: Harrison Barnes
1-30: Festus Ezeli
2-35: Draymond Green
2-52: Ognjen Kuzmic

2013
1-30: Nemanja Nedovic

2014
nothing

2015
1-30: Kevon Looney

2016
1-30: Damian Jones
2-38: Patrick McCaw

2017
2-38: Jordan Bell

2018
1-28: Jacob Evans
   2486. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: May 30, 2019 at 10:36 AM (#5846753)
2483: I think the teams can set it on a game by game basis.

This same argument applies to Dallas, too. If Carlisle is a great coach, which is a widely held opinion, then the Mavs front office is one of the worst in the league.

Well, they certainly aren't good.
   2487. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 30, 2019 at 10:38 AM (#5846755)
To be fair, at least three of us would have drafted Bell higher (we did in our mock draft!).
   2488. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: May 30, 2019 at 10:54 AM (#5846764)
Those last several GS draftees look (based on memory) like guys who fell in the draft and injury risks (like Looney) - they were likely well regarded picks for the slots at the time. (Not taking away from Myers, obviously).

The Curry extension was both fortuitous and excellent GM work.
   2489. JJ1986 Posted: May 30, 2019 at 10:58 AM (#5846765)
1. In the MLB postseason, teams have to set their 25-man roster before each series begins, and they’re basically locked in to that for the whole series. Does the NBA work that way too? I’m asking specifically in connection to the injured players (Durant and Cousins).
AFAIK, their rosters are locked in at the beginning of the postseason, but they declare two inactive players a game which can be anyone.

Also, guys on two-way contracts are not eligible.
   2490. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: May 30, 2019 at 11:08 AM (#5846772)
Another FO worth mentioning is the Nets -- Marks and company have done incredible things forging a playoff team out of a situation that was much worse than starting from scratch (a team starting from scratch would at least have its draft picks!). The next phase is obviously very different so it's an incomplete resume, but that is a very strong start.
   2491. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: May 30, 2019 at 11:17 AM (#5846780)
2. If the Raptors win the Finals, where about would this rank on the list of biggest upsets in NBA Finals history?


It would be up there, but Pistons over Lakers (2004), and Mavs over Heat (2011) are the biggest of my lifetime and outrank a potential Raptors win. Cleveland over Golden State might be higher as well.



   2492. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: May 30, 2019 at 11:28 AM (#5846789)
2489 - yeah, jj
2490 - agree on marks. they've been patient and smart.
   2493. jmurph Posted: May 30, 2019 at 11:30 AM (#5846790)
2. If the Raptors win the Finals, where about would this rank on the list of biggest upsets in NBA Finals history?

At least by SRS, this Raptors team is better than any of the Cavs teams (both in an actual SRS and in league positioning- 3rd, compared to a high of 4th for the Cavs). They are slightly disadvantaged, in comparison to those teams, by their lack of LeBron James, so I'm not sure a straight numerical comparison tells the whole story.*

But anyway, I don't think this would be a historical upset by my standards, but can't speak for Vegas.

*There's also the whole "the Cavs didn't try during the regular season" thing which I think is pretty significantly overblown, but anyway, there it is.
   2494. it's hittin' 53450n. Posted: May 30, 2019 at 11:30 AM (#5846791)
this speaker has never watched a basketball game, he thinks an NBA season lasts 3 months and he has a funny accent...

it is without a doubt the most informative, interesting and amusing way to spend half an hour today.
   2495. sardonic Posted: May 30, 2019 at 11:41 AM (#5846794)
I think Olshey is an interesting case study with Myers. On the one hand, he drafted Lillard and CJ, which Myers didn't do. On the other hand, since then he's made mediocre to below average decisions, which has resulted a consistent second round playoff team vs. a championship contender. It's like a mini-window into what the Warriors COULD look like given different GM-ing.


FA: Extended CJ McCollum at 4 years, $107M; Extended Alan Crabbe at 4 years, $75M; signed Evan Turner to 4 years, $70M; extended Mo Harkless at 4 years, $40M; signed Jusuf Nurkic at 4 years, $48M; extended Meyers Leonard for 4 years, $41M; signed Enes Kanter to 1 year, $650K

Draft: Three 1st, Three 2nds: Zach Collins, Anfernee Simmons, Pat Connaughton, Gary Trent Jr., Jeff Withey, Marko Todorovic

Trades: 2nd for Mo Harkless; Pick that became Malcolm Brogdon for Robin Lopez; late 1st round pick (became Malik Beasley) for Arron Afflalo

He's been active moving around the draft for his guy, but hasn't made a huge dent. The FA decisions are pretty poor, IMO, and the trades don't look so hot either (though obviously who knows who would have been picked if the trades weren't made).

Obviously, getting Dame, CJ and Stotts is the headline here, and a lot of teams would probably gladly trade spots with Olshey. And Myers got to start with Curry and Klay vs. finding them himself. Of course, Myers hasn't had the chance to start from scratch either -- he can only play the hand he was dealt.
   2496. Davo Posted: May 30, 2019 at 11:50 AM (#5846798)
2494- I haven’t clicked on that yet. But my favorite movie podcast did a b-b-b-bonus episode where the two hosts went to a Knicks game and recorded commentary on it, despite one host having never seen a basketball game before in his life (with the exception of Michael Jordan and Bugs Bunny vs the MonStars.)
   2497. I am going to be Frank Posted: May 30, 2019 at 01:10 PM (#5846822)
That Crabbe extension was a RFA contract from the Nets who they then traded him to for Andrew Nicholson.

Marks has made definitely made something out of something worse than ####. He gets a lot of stick for making all those crazy offers to RFA - Tyler Johnson, Crabbe, Otto Porter and Motiejunas. It ended up working because those four guys ended up being overpaid on someone else's roster. Messing with another team's cap space has value in a zero-sum league. Of course Crabbe's deal is now stuck on the Nets roster, but it's expiring in this upcoming season and isn't totally unmovable. The Nets had to spend the money anyway and went to acquire assets instead of trying to be 'competitive' because they didn't have their own draft picks. I think there are still too many GM who don't understand sunk costs and game theory.
   2498. smileyy Posted: May 30, 2019 at 01:33 PM (#5846829)
I wish the NBA still had the mechanism of paying Paul what he signed for while also reducing his cap hit.

It's hard to balance appropriate salaries for superstars while not crippling teams out of flexibility and contention.
   2499. smileyy Posted: May 30, 2019 at 01:38 PM (#5846830)
I mean, I get that there should be a price tag on "win now" and also it can spell franchise doom.
   2500. Rally Posted: May 30, 2019 at 01:50 PM (#5846839)
It would be up there, but Pistons over Lakers (2004), and Mavs over Heat (2011) are the biggest of my lifetime and outrank a potential Raptors win. Cleveland over Golden State might be higher as well.


I think the Raptors right now are a better team than the Cavs were. A deeper team to be sure. The only thing the Cavs had on them was LeBron, who absolutely owned the Raptors in the playoffs. It makes me wonder if the Raptors could have beat Cleveland had LeBron stuck around another year. Getting Kawhi is about the best possible LeBron counter you can have. As for the Warriors, this year's team didn't win 73 games. I think the Raptors have a real chance to take this, and that's a lot more than I can say for the 2016 Cavs. I did not believe that was possible until they actually pulled it off.

Looking back, I can see how the steps of the comeback were achieved:

G5 - no Draymond
G6 - Cavs at home

But game 7, Lebron took down a fully operational Death Star. Great shot kid that was one in a million.
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