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Tuesday, April 16, 2019

OT - NBA thread (Playoffs through off-season)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about the NBA, and this one only cares about the NBA thread and the Cubs so I have no idea what the rest of the website cares about.

Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: April 16, 2019 at 02:18 PM | 6831 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   6601. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: September 03, 2019 at 03:29 PM (#5876487)
flip
   6602. jmurph Posted: September 03, 2019 at 03:33 PM (#5876488)
I didn't watch the game, but if scoring 16 points against a team whose only NBA guy is Tomas Satoransky is "stardom" than there are issues with this year's team.

...
There are issues with this year's team.

Seriously. How many guys are (given health) guaranteed All Stars next season? Middleton? With Mitchell and Kemba next on the list? It's a very unproven, to be charitable, group of players. But I think to FTO's point, this should lead to some closer games, as was seen today.

And on a related note, a big part of me thinks it reflects poorly on so many guys, especially younger guys, that they weren't interested in playing this year, but then Tatum sprains his ankle in the closing seconds and I get it (post-game reports are that he's fine, but obviously anytime that happens it could be worse).
   6603. Booey Posted: September 03, 2019 at 03:59 PM (#5876500)
Seriously. How many guys are (given health) guaranteed All Stars next season? Middleton?


And that's only cuz he plays in the East on a team that will have a good enough record that voters will feel obligated to give them a 2nd All Star. His actual numbers are borderline.

I'd say Kemba is the only clear All Star on the team, and of course that may change now that he's on a team that doesn't need him to take over in every game for them to have a shot at winning (I'd still peg him as the most likely Celtic to be an AS this year, though).

I'd put Mitchell at about 50/50 to make the AS team in 2020. The Jazz will need one of the best records in the league to guarantee they even get ONE All Star (they've had the best record for a team without an All Star in each of the last 2 seasons), and if they only get one, Gobert will almost certainly be more deserving (not that "deserves" always has much to do with it, but I think everyone knows Rudy was screwed last year, so it might be seen as being his turn).
   6604. spivey Posted: September 03, 2019 at 04:00 PM (#5876501)
I mean, there may be issues with this team, but it should be way, way better than Turkey.
   6605. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 03, 2019 at 04:46 PM (#5876512)
On an individual talent level, sure, but I tend to think that in international competitions the continuity, teamwork, and roster construction of other countries will let their talent play up a bit, and the ad hoc nature of US Basketball roster construction dampens the talent advantage the US has commensurately. Typically nowhere near enough to level the playing field, but this year is a fascinating experiment in a closer gap than usual.
   6606. Booey Posted: September 03, 2019 at 05:28 PM (#5876517)
Yep, it's time...for another installment of the HoopsHype top 100 list:

30. Klay Thompson
29. Tracy McGrady
28. Giannis Antetokounmpo
27. Anthony Davis
26. Shawn Marion (!)
25. Chauncey Billups
24. Vince Carter
23. Manu Ginobili
22. Chris Bosh
21. Ray Allen
   6607. Booey Posted: September 03, 2019 at 06:07 PM (#5876529)
So that means the top 20 have to be in some order: LeBron, Duncan, Kobe, Dirk, KG, Durant, Steph, Shaq, Wade, CP3, Westbrook, Harden, Kawhi, Nash, Kidd, Parker, Pierce, P. Gasol, Dwight, and...? Who am I missing? Probably someone obvious (as they all should be at this point in the list)...
   6608. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: September 03, 2019 at 07:08 PM (#5876553)
Noel hasn't shown up yet, right?

(I assume it's Melo.)
   6609. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: September 03, 2019 at 07:13 PM (#5876556)
Melo?
   6610. JJ1986 Posted: September 03, 2019 at 09:23 PM (#5876593)
Dray is really far below Klay Thompson for someone who has been better for the important parts of their careers.
   6611. tshipman Posted: September 03, 2019 at 10:15 PM (#5876612)
Dray is really far below Klay Thompson for someone who has been better for the important parts of their careers.


Klay scores more points.

I mean, why is Tracy McGrady below Tony Parker? in what world is that sane?
   6612. Booey Posted: September 03, 2019 at 10:50 PM (#5876623)
#6611 - I suspect 4 rings and a Finals MVP vs never won a playoff series is the gist of it.

For right or wrong, count da ringzzzz always has and always will be a vital part of any NBA ranking.
   6613. jmurph Posted: September 04, 2019 at 09:07 AM (#5876657)
Man that HoopsHype list just gets worse and worse.

   6614. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: September 04, 2019 at 01:57 PM (#5876757)
Marion is certainly overrated on this list, but I honestly don't mind, because he has always been one of my favorite players and historically underrated. He really was a hell of a defender and in an era before every single forward had to be a deadeye shooter from 3, his wonky shot went in enough to make him a very solid offensive contributor.

Zion Williamson is the evolutionary Shawn Marion?
   6615. If on a winter's night a new father Posted: September 04, 2019 at 02:10 PM (#5876760)
Zion Williamson is the evolutionary Shawn Marion?
Interesting comp! I'm not sure the offense/defense balance is quite right, and the way Zion's ballhandling lets his athleticism play up is both a big part of what makes his ceiling so special and a big stylistic difference from Marion.

Given that the league as a whole evolved towards The Matrix, I'd say there are lots of evolutionary Shawn Marions, in multiple styles. I think Draymond is probably my favorite as such.
   6616. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: September 04, 2019 at 02:27 PM (#5876765)
Der-K, Moses and berg are probably the "evolutionary" versions of three random guys who were emailing Hollinger at Alleyoop.com in 2003.
   6617. DCA Posted: September 04, 2019 at 02:54 PM (#5876768)
Larry Johnson is very clearly the proto-Zion. Credit TGF for making the comparison first (that I saw at least) but the comp is excellent.

Johnson was 31 years old, with only one NBA season left in his career, when Zion was born.
   6618. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: September 04, 2019 at 03:10 PM (#5876776)
Larry Johnson is very clearly the proto-Zion. Credit TGF for making the comparison first (that I saw at least) but the comp is excellent.

This seems right on the money to me. I fervently hope Zion's back holds up better than Grandmama's did.
   6619. GregD Posted: September 04, 2019 at 03:12 PM (#5876777)
Johnson was 31 years old, with only one NBA season left in his career, when Zion was born.
hmmm....given Johnson's history I feel like this is the beginning of one of those Nate Thurmond is LeBron's secret father stories.

(To my knowledge Zion's stepfather has been hugely involved in his life but not his biological father.)
   6620. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: September 04, 2019 at 05:44 PM (#5876821)
Sadly, I'm more like an unevolved version of that guy - I remember staying late at work to print stats from that site back in the late 90s.
--
Bol Bol did sign a 2 way with Denver. He's the highest drafted guy thus far to agree to such a deal and I wonder how seriously his camp considered rejecting it. Note: given Denver's lack of a G-League affiliate, I'd be curious to see how much time he spends playing versus working out in Denver.
   6621. Joe OBrien Posted: September 04, 2019 at 06:20 PM (#5876828)
World Cup got me thinking what is the best 12 man roster that could be made for the World team in a USA versus the world scenario? The US certainly has the talent edge, but I think their biggest advantage is that most of the best players on the international team can't share the court. Too many bigs, too many ball handlers, not enough shooters. Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, Gobert, Simmons, how much can these guys play together?
   6622. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: September 04, 2019 at 07:11 PM (#5876833)
Most All-Star rosters suffer from the fact that there is only one ball. In general, especially now that we are better at measuring defense, you should pack this team with good defenders (and if they can shoot a little even better). For instance, one guy I'd start for the World team is Pascal Siakam -- given who is likely to surround him, he's more valuable than say Jokic.
   6623. puck Posted: September 04, 2019 at 09:40 PM (#5876864)
Well, Bogdan Bogdanovic is the star of the World Cup so far. Is the last name a patronymic, like he is basically named Bogdan son of Bogdan?
   6624. DCA Posted: September 04, 2019 at 09:46 PM (#5876865)
Ingles and Hield are about as good as it gets for shooting (non-Curry division).
   6625. If on a winter's night a new father Posted: September 04, 2019 at 11:15 PM (#5876891)
I think I'd go with something like Dragic / Hield / Bogdanovic (or Ingles) / Antetokounmpo / Horford, Embiid, Jokic, or KAT (cripes, that's a good big man lineup), depending on which combinations play best in practices.
   6626. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: September 05, 2019 at 12:09 AM (#5876896)
World Cup got me thinking what is the best 12 man roster that could be made for the World team in a USA versus the world scenario? The US certainly has the talent edge, but I think their biggest advantage is that most of the best players on the international team can't share the court. Too many bigs, too many ball handlers, not enough shooters. Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, Gobert, Simmons, how much can these guys play together?

some possibilities:
giannis / fournier / bogdonavic / kat / jokic
simmons / doncic / bolden / saric / embiid
dragic / hield / jingles / siakam / gobbert
gasol / capela / ayton / vucevic / nurkic
satoransky / hernangomez / gallinari / porzingis / valanciunas
mills / belinelli / markkanen / bjelica / mirotic
rubio / sefalosha / ilyasova / adams / zaza
dellavadova / batum / aminu / sabonis / poltl
   6627. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: September 05, 2019 at 03:38 AM (#5876903)
On the one hand, Dwight Howard claims to be a new man, blah blah blah. On the other hand, he seems to have something on his face.
   6628. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: September 05, 2019 at 10:15 AM (#5876917)
World Cup got me thinking what is the best 12 man roster that could be made for the World team in a USA versus the world scenario? The US certainly has the talent edge, but I think their biggest advantage is that most of the best players on the international team can't share the court. Too many bigs, too many ball handlers, not enough shooters. Giannis, Embiid, Jokic, Gobert, Simmons, how much can these guys play together?

I think the most interesting aspect is the youth of the World team. Right now the US would win, but 3 years from now? The best young talent in the league is almost all international players. Just look at the top players under 25 this past season, sorted by VORP. The top 8(!) are all international guys: Giannis, Jokic, KAT, Simmons, Doncic, Nurkic, Siakam, and Embiid.

some possibilities:
giannis / fournier / bogdonavic / kat / jokic
simmons / doncic / bolden / saric / embiid
dragic / hield / jingles / siakam / gobbert
gasol / capela / ayton / vucevic / nurkic
satoransky / hernangomez / gallinari / porzingis / valanciunas
mills / belinelli / markkanen / bjelica / mirotic
rubio / sefalosha / ilyasova / adams / zaza
dellavadova / batum / aminu / sabonis / poltl

Also, Canada: Murray / Joseph / SGA / Powell / Olynyk
   6629. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: September 05, 2019 at 12:15 PM (#5876941)
I think the most interesting aspect is the youth of the World team. Right now the US would win, but 3 years from now? The best young talent in the league is almost all international players. Just look at the top players under 25 this past season, sorted by VORP. The top 8(!) are all international guys: Giannis, Jokic, KAT, Simmons, Doncic, Nurkic, Siakam, and Embiid.
in 2019, players with 1500+ minutes, with a BPM > 0, who were 24 or younger, sorted by usage percentage:
Rk                  Player Age  PER  TSUSGOBPM DBPM  BPM
1              Joel Embiid  24 26.1 .593 33.3  2.0  2.1  4.1
2             Devin Booker  22 20.2 .584 32.9  3.8 
-3.0  0.8
3    Giannis Antetokounmpo  24 30.9 .644 32.3  5.7  5.0 10.8
4          DAngelo Russell  22 19.4 .533 31.9  3.9 
-0.5  3.4
5         Donovan Mitchell  22 17.2 .537 31.6  0.8 
-0.2  0.6
6                Luka Doni  19 19.6 .545 30.5  2.9  1.2  4.1
7       Karl
-Anthony Towns  23 26.3 .622 28.9  4.8  2.0  6.8
8            Julius Randle  24 21.0 .600 27.8  1.8 
-0.4  1.4
9              Nikola Joki  23 26.3 .589 27.4  5.7  3.8  9.5
10            Jamal Murray  21 16.0 .538 24.9  1.1 
-1.0  0.1
11             Jusuf Nurki  24 23.4 .570 24.7  1.6  3.6  5.1
12             DeAaron Fox  21 18.1 .544 24.5  1.1  0.0  1.1
13            John Collins  21 21.8 .627 23.7  2.6 
-1.2  1.4
14        Domantas Sabonis  22 21.9 .630 23.5  1.5  2.2  3.7
15           Jaren Jackson  19 16.4 .591 22.8 
-1.4  1.4  0.1
16             Ben Simmons  22 20.0 .582 22.1  1.4  2.6  4.1
17            Aaron Gordon  23 15.1 .538 21.8 
-0.2  1.2  1.0
18           Deandre Ayton  20 20.5 .608 21.2 
-0.1  0.2  0.2
19           Pascal Siakam  24 18.7 .628 20.8  2.0  1.4  3.4
20            Myles Turner  22 18.0 .567 20.0 
-1.4  4.7  3.3
21            Clint Capela  24 23.8 .658 18.2  1.3  1.6  2.9
22           Derrick White  24 14.8 .555 17.7 
-0.2  1.1  0.9
23            Monte Morris  23 16.2 .577 17.1  1.5 
-1.3  0.2
24          Jonathan Isaac  21 13.0 .537 16.3 
-1.9  2.0  0.1
25           Jarrett Allen  20 18.5 .632 15.9 
-0.7  3.2  2.5
26             Bam Adebayo  21 17.9 .623 15.8 
-0.6  3.6  3.0
27            Jerami Grant  24 13.8 .592 15.4 
-0.6  0.9  0.3
28            Marcus Smart  24 13.1 .568 14.6  0.6  1.3  1.8 



...i think this particular line of analysis makes the US look weaker than it actually is. the US gets to add zion, michael porter and ja morant this year, plus there should be continued improvement from guys like wendell carter, lonzo ball, mitchell robinson, mikal bridges, jalen brown, trae young, et al.
   6630. jmurph Posted: September 05, 2019 at 12:31 PM (#5876945)
...i think this particular line of analysis makes the US look weaker than it actually is. the US gets to add zion, michael porter and ja morant this year, plus there should be continued improvement from guys like wendell carter, lonzo ball, mitchell robinson, mikal bridges, jalen brown, trae young, et al.

stiggles, anytime you do a list of players like this and don't include at least one joke name, like Jerryd Bayless, I feel cheated.
   6631. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: September 05, 2019 at 02:44 PM (#5876981)
i've been listening to the fiba broadcasts while i work and the pbp guy for the serbia/italy match has decided to both come up with his own nicknames for a few players (belinelli is the miracle man, bojan is mr. automatic) and to drive those nicknames into the ground.
(to be clear, i don't mind him as an announcer - it's just distracting.)
   6632. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: September 06, 2019 at 01:18 PM (#5877157)
Serbia’s deep, tough, and versatile, with the playmaking talent to spread you out and the physical presence to win a street fight. Sunday brings what should be a damn good test against Marc Gasol and Spain. If Jokic, Bogdanovic, and Co. pass that, they may well enter the knockout stage as the favorite to go all the way, no matter what sort of work Team USA turns in during the second round.
...
Serbia’s front line is so loaded that Jokic, arguably the second-best player in this tournament, has been coming off the bench, allowing the enormous Marjanovic to start the game by pulverizing overmatched opponents to set the tone.
A little under eight months shy of his 40th birthday, Luis Scola is still in those blue-and-whites, still running up and down the court with dudes who hadn’t yet hit puberty when he first joined the senior national team
...
Scola’s no longer the top dog on the Argentine side; these days, the squad’s led by star Real Madrid point guard Facundo Campazzo (whom U.S. fans might best remember as the guy who punched Carmelo Anthony in the balls that time)
France has to deal with Lithuania on Saturday, with interior bullies Jonas Valanciunas and Domantas Sabonis plus quality depth on the wing and in the backcourt, and the Aussies on Monday, with their own tough defense and Mills ready to explode at any time.
When Brazil lines up against the Americans on Monday, it’ll know that Barbosa and Huertas can test the U.S. guards’ ability to stall dribble penetration; that Varejão, Felício, and Caboclo can keep Team USA’s bigs busy on the glass; that Garcia, Caboclo, and 20-year-old Didi Louzada can provide length and defensive disruption on the wings
link
   6633. tshipman Posted: September 06, 2019 at 01:57 PM (#5877178)
Serbia’s front line is so loaded that Jokic, arguably the second-best player in this tournament, has been coming off the bench, allowing the enormous Marjanovic to start the game by pulverizing overmatched opponents to set the tone.


This can't be a good coaching decision.
   6634. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: September 07, 2019 at 07:58 AM (#5877349)
@andyblarsen
The FIBA World Cup is such a fever dream. What if a team led by NBA MVP Giannis played a team led by Anderson Varejao & Leandro Barbosa? Oh, the latter would win? Hmm, what if they played a team led by Tomas Satoransky? Oh, the Sato team is naturally up by 13 at half? Sure.
@Mike_Ganter
Kyle Wiltjer is now 7-for-8 from deep. This is the same Kyle Wiltjer that was tweeting last night “Shanghai is lit.”
@Sportando
Australia 30/65 FG vs Dominican Republic Assists: Mills 9, Bogut 6, Ingles 3, Dellavedova 7, Kay 2, Baynes 2, Creek 1 30 assists -> 30 baskets #FIBAWC
   6635. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: September 07, 2019 at 01:33 PM (#5877390)
Watch a bit of the Czech team earlier in the tourney. Played smart, moved the ball, hit from the perimeter (and their center thumped Turkey), seemed lucky.

The WC really is a fever dream.
   6636. jmurph Posted: September 09, 2019 at 10:00 AM (#5877692)
I've now seen at least a little bit of all of the other good teams and feel like the US should be pretty heavily favored in this thing going forward. I understand their weaknesses, but no one else is great either.
   6637. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: September 09, 2019 at 04:31 PM (#5877847)
I've now seen at least a little bit of all of the other good teams and feel like the US should be pretty heavily favored in this thing going forward. I understand their weaknesses, but no one else is great either.
the US has to go through france, then serbia, then spain (but maybe australia), and any of those games are biffable. i'm not even just talking about some team getting hot from beyond the arc; these opponents are more physical than the US, they have more experience than the US, and they actually have some chemistry (as opposed to this US incarnation, which was thrown together after 68 better players turned down the "opportunity"). and in terms of talent, 4 players in the US rotation don't even start on their own NBA team ...and one of players that does start is harrison barnes.

this US team does not just have weaknesses; it has vulnerabilities.


that being said, this team isn't a repeat of 2004; at the very least, despite all of the turmoil this summer, team USA built a plausible roster (as opposed to the '04 roster, which had zero PGs, zero shooters and 7 PFs).
   6638. jmurph Posted: September 09, 2019 at 04:50 PM (#5877856)
4 players in the US rotation don't even start on their own NBA team

Right but to drive home the point, Serbia, Spain, and Australia have 4 NBA players, full stop. France has 5, and one of them is Frank Ntilikina. There's just no dicing up the rosters in any way that doesn't still leave the US with an overwhelming talent advantage.

I don't dismiss the chemistry/cohesion thing, though, we've clearly already seen some of that.
   6639. spivey Posted: September 09, 2019 at 05:34 PM (#5877871)
I agree with jmurph. I don't know enough about their teams, but seriously, are teams like Greece and Brazil even better than a run of the mill power conference NCAA tournament team? Granted the teams in front of the US are significantly better than those teams, but the US really doesn't have any excuses if they fail.
   6640. Booey Posted: September 09, 2019 at 05:57 PM (#5877876)
Just chiming in to say that I've been mostly satisfied with the way the Jazz guys have been playing in the World Cup (Mitchell, Gobert, Ingles).

Even better if Gobert is allowed to continue goaltending opponents shots at the end of close games. That would bode well for Utah's chances in the upcoming season...
   6641. If on a winter's night a new father Posted: September 09, 2019 at 07:38 PM (#5877905)
Similarly, I've been mostly happy with how the Celtics have played. I haven't watched much of France and Germany yet, so I don't have strong opinions on the performances of Poirer (Booey might though: any opinions on how he's looked backing up Gobert?) or Theis; but I've liked a lot of what I've seen from the American four. Walker has adapted his game wonderfully to a more talented roster; Tatum's passing, rebounding, and blocks have been good (the passing honestly better than expected); Brown has thrived playing against bigger opponents, which he hasn't really gotten the chance to do in green, being the shortest and fastest of Boston's 3 big wings. Marcus Smart, as always, is flying around like a maniac doing Marcus Smart things.

How much of this will carry over to the NBA season? Hard to say, but I'm sure there will be plenty of post-hoc narratives anyway.
   6642. Booey Posted: September 09, 2019 at 08:28 PM (#5877910)
#6641 - Sorry, I haven't actually watched any of the games (aren't they on at weird times?). I've just been basing my opinions off the boxscores and recaps.
   6643. If on a winter's night a new father Posted: September 10, 2019 at 12:25 AM (#5877966)
aren't they on at weird times?
They're quite early in the morning, especially out west, but if you have an espn+ account, you can watch replays at any hour you please.
   6644. tshipman Posted: September 10, 2019 at 01:20 AM (#5877975)
Right but to drive home the point, Serbia, Spain, and Australia have 4 NBA players, full stop. France has 5, and one of them is Frank Ntilikina. There's just no dicing up the rosters in any way that doesn't still leave the US with an overwhelming talent advantage.


The counterpoint is that the US mostly has a depth advantage. France, Serbia and maybe Spain all have the best player on the court against the US when playing FIBA rules.

Also the refs are godawful.
   6645. jmurph Posted: September 10, 2019 at 09:18 AM (#5878013)
Does Shams copy/paste these or just give his twitter log-in directly to the agents to save time?
Shams Charania @ShamsCharania
Sources: Memphis wants three-time champion Andre Iguodala to report to training camp and is refusing right now to engage in buyout, which would prevent Iguodala from finishing a Hall of Fame career on his terms because this may be his final NBA season.

Shams Charania @ShamsCharania
Iguodala is VP of NBPA, one of league’s most respected and desires a contender at this stage. Young, rebuilding Grizzlies received a valuable 2024 1st from Golden State in Iguodala trade, and after Dwight Howard buyout, were expected to eventually have same talks with Iguodala.
   6646. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: September 10, 2019 at 09:37 AM (#5878024)
Shams Charania @ShamsCharania
Andre Iguodala signs deal to publish autobiography in fall 2021 in collaboration with ghost writer Shams Charania
   6647. jmurph Posted: September 10, 2019 at 09:57 AM (#5878032)
The counterpoint is that the US mostly has a depth advantage. France, Serbia and maybe Spain all have the best player on the court against the US when playing FIBA rules.

Fair, but I endorse this version:
A.K @Kungu_NBA
Pro tip: “Best player in tournament” logic carries very little weight if the next 10 best players are on the other team.
   6648. jmurph Posted: September 10, 2019 at 09:58 AM (#5878033)
Also turns out Serbia was bad and are now out.
   6649. spivey Posted: September 10, 2019 at 10:11 AM (#5878039)
A.K @Kungu_NBA
Pro tip: “Best player in tournament” logic carries very little weight if the next 10 best players are on the other team.


I want this to be true, but even our stacked Olympic rosters of the last couple go rounds have struggled against teams like Lithuania. I think some of it is definitely team gelling, but I can't help but think the US is not going all out like they would in a playoff game. It also has me rethinking about truly how much variance there is in the sport.
   6650. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: September 10, 2019 at 10:29 AM (#5878045)
single elimination tourneys can yield weird results.
--
6646 - that's funny but wasn't iggy's actual book #1 on the nyt sports list until recently?
   6651. jmurph Posted: September 10, 2019 at 10:30 AM (#5878046)
Yeah I agree that's an overstatement (it's also an overstatement that we have the next 10 best players, that's not true across the board). But still given the choice (easy to say now!) of Serbia or the US, you pretty clearly would take our roster, despite Jokic being on the other side.
   6652. CFBF's Overflowing Pathos Posted: September 10, 2019 at 11:12 AM (#5878068)
Joakim Noah apparently just got engaged to a Victoria's Secret model. And at Burning Man, which is very on-brand for Jo.
   6653. Booey Posted: September 10, 2019 at 12:20 PM (#5878088)
The annual Sports Illustrated Top 100 Players list has begun. Here's their picks for 2020:

100. Andrew Wiggins
99. Terrence Ross
98. DeAndre Jordan
97. Jarrett Allen
96. Kyle Kuzma
95. Joe Harris
94. DeJounte Murray
93. Bam Adebayo
92. Spencer Dinwiddie
91. Derrick White
90. Zach Lavine
89. Danny Green
88. Jonas Valanciunas
87. Jeff Teague
86. Andre Iguodala
85. Brandon Ingram
84. Al-Farouq Aminu
83. Jaren Jackson Jr
82. Marcus Smart
81. Patrick Beverley
80. Serge Ibaka
79. Julius Randle
78. Jusuf Nurkic
77. Montrezl Harrell
76. Domantas Sabonis
75. Lauri Markkanen
74. PJ Tucker
73. Ricky Rubio
72. Harrison Barnes
71. Josh Richardson
70. Thaddeus Young
69. Caris Levert
68. Jaylen Brown
67. JJ Redick
66. Brook Lopez
65. Joe Ingles
64. Robert Covington
63. Eric Gordon
62. Trae Young
61. Malcolm Brogdon
60. Aaron Gordon
59. Gillespie Harpsichord
58. Klay Thompson
57. Otto Porter
56. Clint Capela
55. Derrick Favors
54. Buddy Hield
53. Lou Williams
52. Bojan Bogdanovic
51. John Collins
50. Danilo Gallinari
49. Tobias Harris
48. Gary Harris
47. Myles Turner
46. Eric Bledsoe
45. Nikola Vucevic
44. D'Angelo Russell
43. Paul Millsap
42. Marc Gasol
41. Kevin Love
40. Steven Adams
39. Victor Oladipo
38. Jamal Murray
37. Kristaps Porzingis
36. Andre Drummond
35. Jayson Tatum
34. Devin Booker
33. De'Aaron Fox
32. CJ McCollum
31. DeMar DeRozan


Stay tuned...
   6654. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: September 10, 2019 at 01:12 PM (#5878105)
<tunes out>

We still have 6 weeks left before the regular season starts, huh? I just can't bring myself to get excited about FIBA. It's a bunch of secondary NBA players on the US, and random scrub-filled national teams playing for nothing in particular outside of Olympics qualification. The only interesting thing that could have happened is the US not qualifying for the Olympics, which with this format was always highly unlikely (would have probably taken two losses in group play). Do I care whether Argentina or Brazil qualifies for the Olympics? Ehhhh, not really.
   6655. If on a winter's night a new father Posted: September 10, 2019 at 01:32 PM (#5878116)
I see you're far less invested than I am in evaluating the quality of Harrison Barnes, Khris Middleton, Jaylen Brown, Jayson Tatum, and Joe Harris relative to each other than I am. Your loss.
   6656. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: September 10, 2019 at 02:01 PM (#5878128)
The annual Sports Illustrated Top 100 Players list has begun. Here's their picks for 2020:

100. Andrew Wiggins
i'm out.
   6657. RJ in TO Posted: September 10, 2019 at 02:24 PM (#5878133)
So either Pascal Siakam is outside the top 100, which seems crazy, or Pascal Siakam is in the top 30, which seems optimistic.
   6658. Booey Posted: September 10, 2019 at 03:45 PM (#5878162)
So either Pascal Siakam is outside the top 100, which seems crazy, or Pascal Siakam is in the top 30, which seems optimistic.


I don't think Siakam in the high 20's would be too unrealistic. He already seemed to have All Star potential, and now he'll likely be the Raps #1 option.
   6659. spivey Posted: September 10, 2019 at 04:08 PM (#5878170)
That list is garbage, but Siakam being top 30 isn't unreasonable. He had a huge finals and is both good defensively and is showing a growing ability to get buckets.
   6660. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: September 10, 2019 at 05:21 PM (#5878182)
stiggles, I want your thoughts on the Mike Scott stuff.
   6661. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 10, 2019 at 06:47 PM (#5878210)
stiggles, I want your thoughts on the Mike Scott stuff.

What did you think he means by hitting 53450n!?
   6662. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: September 10, 2019 at 08:00 PM (#5878239)
the worst post in BBTFMBT history:
1307. it's hittin' 53450n. Posted: November 28, 2015 at 04:43 PM (#5103114)
there's a "rumor" spreading that the sixers and magic are talking about an oladipo/noel swap. if it's not completely made up, then it's almost certainly overblown, so i'd be shocked if anything comes of it.

if there's any kernel of truth to it, hopefully it's less about trading noel and more about laying the groundwork to rope orlando into trading hezonja.
   6663. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: September 10, 2019 at 08:12 PM (#5878242)
stiggles, I want your thoughts on the Mike Scott stuff.

talk #### -> get hit.
   6664. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: September 10, 2019 at 10:51 PM (#5878268)
stiggles, I want your thoughts on the Mike Scott stuff.
to give this a little more thought:

mike scott was clearly in the wrong. i'd put my money on him in a cage fight against some random drunk pieces of ####, but in a street fight like that, scott has no way of knowing if one of those ######## has a knife, has a gun, has rabies or MRSA or some mosquito ####. mike scott is a multi-millionaire professional athlete and he put himself in a position where he very easily could have been killed. that's unacceptable.

w/r/t wearing a racial slurs jersey to an eagles game...whatever.

w/r/t throwing gordon haymakers at eagles fans despite playing for the sixers...philly fans can't talk about how tough we are, how passionate we are, but then whine like a trump when someone like mike scott stands up for himself against a bunch of ########.
   6665. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: September 11, 2019 at 08:41 AM (#5878335)
Could say things are getting pretty serious in China right now.
   6666. spivey Posted: September 11, 2019 at 08:56 AM (#5878336)
Looks like the US lost to France. Looks like pretty poor performances across the board except for Mitchell.

Edit: didn't watch the game, but it looks like our centers only got a combined ~16 minutes or so (Brolo got 4, Plumlee 1, Myles Turner 10). It looks like Rudy Gobert shockingly murdered our Harrison Barnes as a Center lineups on the glass.
   6667. Thok Posted: September 11, 2019 at 09:01 AM (#5878337)
At least the US team already clinched a spot in the 2020 Olympics, which makes the loss only disappointing rather than disastrous.
   6668. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: September 11, 2019 at 09:12 AM (#5878342)
as a hawks fan, i've got to note that mike scott is an idiot - irrespective of the particulars here.

i only got to see a few minutes of the usa/fra match, but had read that gobert was killing our centers - hence the move to small ball.
   6669. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: September 11, 2019 at 09:31 AM (#5878351)
From what I saw (which wasn't enough to actually have a take but won't let that stop me) small ball offense was step-back jumpers or driving right at Gobert. Felt sub-optimal.
   6670. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: September 11, 2019 at 09:40 AM (#5878353)
if you're serbia, how do you feel about the us losing? they're on the same side of the bracket now.
   6671. jmurph Posted: September 11, 2019 at 09:51 AM (#5878358)
if you're serbia, how do you feel about the us losing? they're on the same side of the bracket now.

? They're in the knockout rounds, what is that side of the bracket even playing for?

EDIT: Does Serbia need to win to make the Olympics?
   6672. kubiwan Posted: September 11, 2019 at 10:04 AM (#5878366)
Gobert spent less than 6 minutes off the court, during which the US outscored France by 16(!) points.
   6673. kubiwan Posted: September 11, 2019 at 10:09 AM (#5878368)
Does Serbia need to win to make the Olympics?


They cannot qualify for the Olympics from this event now. Per wiki, only the top 2 European teams at the World Cup will earn a spot, and Spain and France are already in the semis and guaranteed to finish ahead of Serbia (the Czechs could make it too as of this writing).

There are 4 bids that will be up for grabs at some tournament (tournaments?) to be held next July.
   6674. jmurph Posted: September 11, 2019 at 10:27 AM (#5878372)
Thanks kubiwan.
   6675. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: September 11, 2019 at 12:25 PM (#5878411)
? They're in the knockout rounds, what is that side of the bracket even playing for?
i think there's a mini-bracket for 5th place.
if you're serbia, how do you feel about the us losing? they're on the same side of the bracket now.
if i was serbia, i'd rather lose to the US than coast to a meaningless 5th place finish.


moving forward, the US needs to be really careful about the fact that most of our people hate each other. CP x harden; durant x everyone; lebron x everyone; westbrook x everyone; kawhi x pop; that is a lot of tension to deal with behind the scenes. sure, those players might be talented enough that it doesn't matter, but i don't think the US can trust that to be the case anymore.
   6676. DCA Posted: September 11, 2019 at 12:34 PM (#5878412)
No surprise at all that France won.

Sure, the US has an extreme depth advantage, but Gobert was the best player on either team and France could surround him with a couple of legitimate NBA rotation pieces or Euro pros of that quality (Fournier, Batum, De Colo), which is all that most of the US team is.

Basically, whenever Gobert was on the floor, France was the more talented team, and he played 85% of the game.
   6677. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: September 11, 2019 at 01:40 PM (#5878426)
if i was picking the 2020 roster right now, assuming full participation, i'd go with:

G: curry, jrue, lillard
W: oladipo, klay, p.george, middleton, o.porter, beal
B: a.davis, montrezl, zion


starting lineup:
curry / oladipo / klay / george / davis

primary reserves:
jrue, middleton, montrezl

situational reserves:
lillard - if you need playmaking or scoring
beal - if you need someone to eat shots
porter - 3 + D
zion - if you need energy



this mix sidesteps most of the personality issues that i alluded to in [6675].

curry would be the only player over 30.
zion would be the only player under 25.

this team has plenty of shooting, plenty of ball handling. it's a bit weak in rim protection, but the perimeter defense is a strength, and it does not lack for toughness.

they would play fast and try to run other teams' big men off the floor. even if they get beat up inside, they can come out ahead by trading 3s for 2s and/or forcing turnovers.


if you're comfortable with some of the personality issues, it's easy enough to sub in harden for lillard; durant for porter; draymond for montrezl; kawhi for middleton; lebron for beal, without compromising the strengths, weaknesses or style of play.
   6678. Booey Posted: September 11, 2019 at 01:53 PM (#5878427)
Sports Illustrated Top 100 of 2020 continues...

30. Luka Doncic
29. Donovan Mitchell
28. Kyle Lowry
27. Khris Middleton
26. Mike Conley
25. Jrue Holiday
24. Pascal Siakam
23. Ben Simmons
22. Bradley Beal
21. Chris Paul
20. Kemba Walker
19. Blake Griffin
18. Al Horford
17. Draymond Green
16. LaMarcus Aldridge
15. Kyrie Irving
14. Rudy Gobert
13. Karl-Anthony Towns
12. Russell Westbrook
11. Jimmy Butler


Wow, Aldridge and Butler look way too high to me! I didn't expect either to crack the top 20, but Jimmy barely missed the top 10! :-o

On the plus side, that means the Jazz's starting lineup has number 14, 26, 29, 52, and 65. Looks pretty solid for a team without a top 10 guy.
   6679. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: September 11, 2019 at 02:32 PM (#5878440)
@MikePradaSBN
You need to slow the replay down to really appreciate Gobert's mid-air adjustment and reach. Mitchell fooled him and it didn't matter.

Sheesh. ####### sheesh. https://sbnation.com/nba/2019/9/11/20860562/rudy-gobert-france-vs-team-usa-basketball-fiba-world-cup-2019-highlights
   6680. DCA Posted: September 11, 2019 at 02:36 PM (#5878442)
6677 -

I'd not be comfortable going so light on the bigs. If Davis is out (he's not exactly a paragon of health) this team can be bullied inside. Yes, they'd probably still win anyway but that's their biggest vulnerability, and it just happened this morning to the B team. So I'd want some more bodies to put up against other countries' elite centers. Don't even have to be stars (good, because there aren't stars). Kevon Looney can play the same role he did with the Warriors. Ed Davis is everyone's favorite teammate. Drummond can hoover up boards or a Lopez brother can funnel them to somebody else. Aldridge and Horford are still productive. Myles Turner would seem to be the obvious peak-age choice to back up Davis, but somehow couldn't get a lot of run this year as the #1 big, so perhaps not.
   6681. GregD Posted: September 11, 2019 at 02:50 PM (#5878445)
I'd not be comfortable going so light on the bigs. If Davis is out (he's not exactly a paragon of health) this team can be bullied inside. Yes, they'd probably still win anyway but that's their biggest vulnerability, and it just happened this morning to the B team. So I'd want some more bodies to put up against other countries' elite centers. Don't even have to be stars (good, because there aren't stars). Kevon Looney can play the same role he did with the Warriors. Ed Davis is everyone's favorite teammate. Drummond can hoover up boards or a Lopez brother can funnel them to somebody else. Aldridge and Horford are still productive. Myles Turner would seem to be the obvious peak-age choice to back up Davis, but somehow couldn't get a lot of run this year as the #1 big, so perhaps not.
Yeah I think one way around the logjam is to take Draymond and Klay Thompson and have Curry run the team and basically pick who can fit into their way of playing. you need young guys for fatigue (and injury!) but it doesn't have to be an all-star team.
   6682. jmurph Posted: September 11, 2019 at 02:54 PM (#5878447)
I wonder about LeBron, Durant, Harden, Westbrook, etc. I don't think we know yet how Pop will handle this sort of thing- chemistry/fit vs star power- but some of those guys will surely be in play.
   6683. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: September 11, 2019 at 03:42 PM (#5878465)
I'd not be comfortable going so light on the bigs. If Davis is out (he's not exactly a paragon of health) this team can be bullied inside. Yes, they'd probably still win anyway but that's their biggest vulnerability, and it just happened this morning to the B team. So I'd want some more bodies to put up against other countries' elite centers. Don't even have to be stars (good, because there aren't stars). Kevon Looney can play the same role he did with the Warriors. Ed Davis is everyone's favorite teammate. Drummond can hoover up boards or a Lopez brother can funnel them to somebody else. Aldridge and Horford are still productive. Myles Turner would seem to be the obvious peak-age choice to back up Davis, but somehow couldn't get a lot of run this year as the #1 big, so perhaps not.
the guy i was considering for brad beal's spot was john collins, but i figured that since he's not a rim protector, he wasn't really filling the hole that you point out.

myles turner isn't a bad name, but he did just get run off the floor by rudy gobert, so i'm not sure if he can fill the hole, either.

horford is just a bit too old; brook lopez isn't mobile enough; looney and davis aren't good enough.

guys like drummond, jarrett allen, mitchell robinson, nerlens noel, WCS can do the rim protecting/rim rolling thing, but they aren't really what i was looking for.

i might be willing to go with favors, but that's not overly inspiring.


there are a few younger guys who i'd keep track of over this next year, though i don't think any of them will be ready for 2020:
collins -- as mentioned
turner -- mentioned
wendell carter -- it's too soon, but he's getting comped to al horford, which would make him a good fit in the role.
jaren jackson -- 3+D, but again, he's very young.
the timelord -- he has the talent and the opportunity to take a leap this year
noah vonleh -- took a big step forward last year
jonathan isaac -- huge talent; good defense; buried on the depth chart and playing out of position.
   6684. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: September 11, 2019 at 04:15 PM (#5878469)
I'd not be comfortable going so light on the bigs. If Davis is out (he's not exactly a paragon of health) this team can be bullied inside. Yes, they'd probably still win anyway but that's their biggest vulnerability, and it just happened this morning to the B team
even though they lost, i'm not willing to take a #### on this year's team. they were willing to go when a lot of other players weren't and i happen to appreciate that.

however, this 2019 team didn't have enough shooting to play a "pace and space" system that can force opposing centers off the floor. my 2020 roster can make rudy gobert a liability in a way that this 2019 team couldn't (though to be fair, my roster has 4 players currently recovering from significant injuries).


as far as being bullied, rudy gobert can't block a 28' stepback 3 when both of his feet are in the paint. the way you beat guys like him isn't to play them straight up; it's to make them choose between playing in space outside of their comfort zone, or standing in their comfort zone, while the play is unfolding 20' away.
   6685. If on a winter's night a new father Posted: September 11, 2019 at 06:24 PM (#5878493)
Since he's come up twice now: Horford is also Dominican, not United States of American.
   6686. JJ1986 Posted: September 11, 2019 at 09:00 PM (#5878526)
When was Noah Vonleh a Sixer?
   6687. spivey Posted: September 12, 2019 at 09:54 AM (#5878616)
US lost to Serbia. Went behind 32-7 in the first quarter, and despite a big second quarter, they weren't able to come all the way back. It looks like a pretty different group of guys had good games today vs yesterday, and Mitchell was pretty meh. Seems like the US just doesn't/didn't have any guys who were really consistent all tournament long. Looking at how Serbia shot on 2s and 3s, and just looking at the roster, it doesn't seem like the US really played great defense or has a great defensive roster. Seems like an area the US should be able to lap the international field.
   6688. puck Posted: September 12, 2019 at 10:34 AM (#5878621)
Looking at how Serbia shot on 2s and 3s, and just looking at the roster, it doesn't seem like the US really played great defense or has a great defensive roster. Seems like an area the US should be able to lap the international field.


Wow, Bogdan really lit them up. 3/3 from 2pt and 7/14 from 3pt. Rest of the team added 8/17 from 3, that's a lot of 3s! It does seem that the US should do better even (or maybe even especially, because you have to) when they don't have the first choice of players. But then I suppose they run into the problems the US teams did when they first starting having trouble in international games, in not having enough outside shooters.
   6689. Booey Posted: September 12, 2019 at 11:01 AM (#5878627)
Finale of the Sports Illustrated Top 100 of 2020 list:

10. Damian Lillard
9. Paul George
8. Nikola Jokic
7. Joel Embiid
6. Anthony Davis
5. James Harden
4. Stephen Curry
3. LeBron James
2. Kawhi Leonard
1. Giannis Antetokounmpo

Durant of course is absent due to injury. Also the first time in the lists history that someone other than LeBron took the top spot (though they've only been doing it since 2013).
   6690. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: September 12, 2019 at 01:19 PM (#5878681)
Wow, Bogdan really lit them up. 3/3 from 2pt and 7/14 from 3pt. Rest of the team added 8/17 from 3, that's a lot of 3s! variance


FTFY
   6691. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: September 12, 2019 at 01:33 PM (#5878684)
Wow, Bogdan really lit them up. 3/3 from 2pt and 7/14 from 3pt. Rest of the team added 8/17 from 3, that's a lot of 3s! variance
great adjustment by the serbian coach between games.
   6692. RJ in TO Posted: September 12, 2019 at 02:14 PM (#5878691)
Durant of course is absent due to injury. Also the first time in the lists history that someone other than LeBron took the top spot (though they've only been doing it since 2013).


Durant is absent from the list, but Klay is on it at #30. From Klay's injury, isn't he also expected to miss more or less the entire upcoming season?
   6693. Fourth True Outcome Posted: September 12, 2019 at 02:27 PM (#5878697)
Klay's ACL tear is bad news, but has both a shorter usual recovery time and less uncertainty about how well he will come back. I think 30 is too high, but it looks like the earliest he could come back is December. Durant's Achilles injury is a lot more nebulous, and the Nets have refused to give a timetable while saying he is likely out for the entire season.
   6694. Booey Posted: September 12, 2019 at 02:44 PM (#5878707)
Durant is absent from the list, but Klay is on it at #30. From Klay's injury, isn't he also expected to miss more or less the entire upcoming season?


Klay's ACL tear is bad news, but has both a shorter usual recovery time and less uncertainty about how well he will come back. I think 30 is too high, but it looks like the earliest he could come back is December. Durant's Achilles injury is a lot more nebulous, and the Nets have refused to give a timetable while saying he is likely out for the entire season.


It appears that the "killing time when I'm bored at work" lists I've been posting are all blending together. ;-) Klay is #58 on this Sports Illustrated Top 100 of 2020 list that left out Durant (post #6653). They dropped him quite a bit due to his injury as well. His #30 ranking was from the HoopsHype Top 100 of the 21st century list (post #6606). He was also #48 on the NBC Sports Top 50 in 5 years list that I posted in #6578.
   6695. If on a winter's night a new father Posted: September 12, 2019 at 05:43 PM (#5878791)
I haven't watched the Serbia game yet, but I've watched most of the other USA games. I'm very surprised Middleton's mediocre play isn't a bigger storyline. The numbers aren't quite as bad as I expected, but he had very little impact beyond his shooting, he shot below his normal efficiency on both 2s and 3s, and he wasn't one of the better defensive wings/swings for the US during world cup play. Honestly, I think that if Milwaukee Middleton had shown up, the United States is still undefeated.

Otherwise, players were more of less as I expected (while I thought Mitchell played below his (fairly high) par for most of the tournament, his game against France might have been the best game any US player had all tournament, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯). Subjectively, speaking as a big ol' homer, the biggest pleasant surprise was Jaylen Brown's passing: he's been a bit of a black hole in the NBA (his second-biggest weakness besides free throw shooting), but his playmaking in FIBA games showed out to the point that the rest of the team was calling him "Jaylen the Creator". Small sample size, etc etc, but a boy can hope*.

* There was a Kaiser Lindeman piece about Jaylen Brown I was going to link, talking about how top-notch athleticism is among the most promising indicators of late-blooming playmaking ability, but it appears the domain registration for the deepish thoughts blog has expired. R.I.P.
   6696. jmurph Posted: September 13, 2019 at 09:18 AM (#5878871)
France getting easily handled by a pretty unimpressive Argentina team deepens the embarrassment for Team USA.
   6697. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: September 13, 2019 at 11:08 AM (#5878903)
“It’s f***in’ very similar. I think, in Rio, I also think we deserved to win it. It’s just a f***in; I don’t know what we’ve gotta do. We’ve gotta find an altar somewhere and burn a sacrifice, or do something the basketball gods, because they’re not kissing us on the dick yet, like they do Spain. You can print that if you want.

“Spain gets kissed on the dick by the basketball gods every time we play them.”

Luc Longley, apt and concise. As usual.


link
   6698. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: September 13, 2019 at 11:54 AM (#5878916)
Livingston retired.
   6699. tshipman Posted: September 13, 2019 at 12:51 PM (#5878940)
Question: is it just the tournament thing, or is Luis Scola seriously Argentinian Jordan under FIBA rules somehow?
   6700. spivey Posted: September 13, 2019 at 02:04 PM (#5878958)
I do think there's a lot to be said for there being a ton of bucket getters and when one of them is on a non-US team where they have a lot more freedom, they play with more confidence. It also seems like one of the advantages of US born players vs a lot of the other team is the fitness and strength of being able to handle big minutes and the grind of the NBA season. Less of a thing in a small tournament like this. Like, Patty Mills is a baller. But he has shown an inability his entire career to have the fitness to play big minutes for an entire season, even when there were years where I'd argue he was the best PG on the Spurs.
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