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Thursday, September 26, 2019

OT - NBA thread (pre-season)

I estimate only 10-12 Primates care about baseball, and this thread is the only thing keeping this site alive.

Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: September 26, 2019 at 09:56 AM | 762 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: basketball, nba, off-topic

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   501. jmurph Posted: October 17, 2019 at 01:13 PM (#5891320)
Pretty surprised by the Beal news. Obviously doesn't mean they won't eventually trade him, but it seems unlikely at least for a while (saw that he's untradeable this season, as he can't be traded until 6 months after he signs, which will take it past the trade deadline).
   502. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 17, 2019 at 01:21 PM (#5891326)
Any other rookies looking good/interesting/fun in preseason play? I haven't watched much beyond the Cs games, so I'm curious about anyone really showing out so far, even though nothing really matters yet.

Not just rookies, but

Kirk Goldsberry @kirkgoldsberry

Most Efficient Preseason Scorers* (TS%)
1. Zion Williamson ... 73.7%
2. Zach LaVine ....... 71.2%
3. CJ McCollum ...... 70.5%
4. Steph Curry ........ 69.4%
5. Bryn Forbes ........ 69.3%
* Min 40 FGA (58 Players)

Kirk Goldsberry @kirkgoldsberry

Out of 58 players with at least 40 preseason FGA, Markelle Fultz has been the least efficient so far, with an TS% of just 34.9%
   503. jmurph Posted: October 17, 2019 at 01:47 PM (#5891347)
Kirk Goldsberry @kirkgoldsberry
Out of 58 players with at least 40 preseason FGA, Markelle Fultz has been the least efficient so far, with an TS% of just 34.9%

Yeah the "he's back" talk about him has been super bizarre, he transparently still can't shoot, at all.
   504. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 17, 2019 at 02:13 PM (#5891360)
NAW looks good, like a future above average starter, though I don't expect him to do a ton this year (plus it's a small sample).
   505. jmurph Posted: October 17, 2019 at 02:18 PM (#5891362)
NAW looks good, like a future above average starter

Agree, I knew nothing about him so was even more impressed.

If they're healthy they're genuinely gonna chase a playoff spot. I don't see them being appreciably worse than the other teams in the 7-11ish mix.
   506. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: October 17, 2019 at 02:29 PM (#5891365)
I think they have a super bright future, and I love Jrue, so I can see it.

On the other hand... building a coherent NBA team defense with a bunch of young players who haven't played together before is really hard! They have the potential and athleticism, but it just would be rather unprecedented for a team so young and newly put together to be any good at all on the defensive end.

I'm very, very curious to see how it plays out in New Orleans.
   507. jmurph Posted: October 17, 2019 at 02:35 PM (#5891370)
On the other hand... building a coherent NBA team defense with a bunch of young players who haven't played together before is really hard! They have the potential and athleticism, but it just would be rather unprecedented for a team so young and newly put together to be any good at all on the defensive end.

Young, newly assembled, and coached by Alvin Gentry! Lotta strikes against their defensive upside, that's for sure.
   508. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 17, 2019 at 02:50 PM (#5891372)
I'm inclined to agree, jmurphy - though having Jrue, Ball, and Favors raises your defensive floor pretty quickly. (Subplot: Zion's +/- with traditional posts (Favors, Hayes) is pretty bad so far but pretty good with more limber types. That should change as Zion learns how to play D using more than ungodly athleticism but is worth monitoring.)
   509. jmurph Posted: October 17, 2019 at 02:58 PM (#5891378)
I just look at that mix of teams starting with Portland, San Antonio, then moving down through OKC and Dallas, and I'm just not sure New Orleans will be worse than any of them. I'd certainly favor the Portland and San Antonio "infrastructure," those are teams that just never miss the playoffs. But the upside is there for the Pelicans.

EDIT: Maybe more injury risk in New Orleans? Or injury history, at least.
   510. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 17, 2019 at 03:12 PM (#5891381)
Agree that they're in that mix. I haven't tried to make predictions yet - but NOP is definitely there for me as of now.
--
Luol Deng officially retired.
   511. jmurph Posted: October 17, 2019 at 03:13 PM (#5891383)
I haven't tried to make predictions yet

As hard as the west looks, the east looks basically impossible. There are very few good teams! Draw names out of a hat.
   512. If on a winter's night a new father Posted: October 17, 2019 at 03:26 PM (#5891385)
I just saw a picture of Vince Carter (drafted 1998) sitting with RJ Barret (born in 2000). If he plays one more season, there's a chance he'll be teammates with someone who wasn't born until he signed his second contract (August 2001).
   513. If on a winter's night a new father Posted: October 17, 2019 at 04:19 PM (#5891402)
the east looks basically impossible. There are very few good teams! Draw names out of a hat.
For shits and giggles, I actually did this*. My Official And Meaningful Eastern Conference prediction:
1. Orlando Magic
2. Brooklyn Nets
3. Milwaukee Bucks
4. Chicago Bulls
5. Atlanta Hawks
6. Boston Celtics
7. New York Knicks
8. Cleveland Cavaliers
-----
9. Miami Heat
10. Toronto Raptors
11. Detroit Pistons
12. Washington Wizards
13. Philadelphia 76ers
14. Charlotte Hornets
15. Indiana Pacers

Markelle Fultz really IS back, y'all.

* strictly speaking, I had my chrome pick names out of a hat by opening my browser's Developer Tools and running two commands in the "console" tab. First
fetch('https://cdn.jsdelivr.net/npm/lodash@4.17.4/lodash.min.js')
    .
then(response => response.text())
    .
then(text => eval(text)
to get a convenient randomizing function and then
_.shuffle([
  
"Atlanta Hawks",
  
"Boston Celtics",
  
"Brooklyn Nets",
  
"Charlotte Hornets",
  
"Chicago Bulls",
  
"Cleveland Cavaliers",
  
"Detroit Pistons",
  
"Indiana Pacers",
  
"Miami Heat",
  
"Milwaukee Bucks",
  
"New York Knicks",
  
"Orlando Magic",
  
"Philadelphia 76ers",
  
"Toronto Raptors",
  
"Washington Wizards"
]
to generate the Official And Meaningful standings.
   514. If on a winter's night a new father Posted: October 17, 2019 at 04:53 PM (#5891408)
In retrospect, it seemed terribly unscientific to use a single sample to generate my Official And Meaningful standings, so I ran it 10,000 times and averaged each teams' seeding across all trials. Here are my Even More Meaningful Updated Official standings, which I intend to take straight to Vegas:
Rk. Team / Avg. seed
1. Milwaukee Bucks / 7.8812
2. Atlanta Hawks / 7.9653
3. Toronto Raptors / 7.9758
4. Miami Heat / 7.9885
5. Washington Wizards / 7.9895
6. New York Knicks / 7.9949
7. Cleveland Cavaliers / 7.9958
8. Detroit Pistons / 7.9963
9. Indiana Pacers / 8.0092
10. Chicago Bulls / 8.0104
11. Boston Celtics / 8.0201
12. Charlotte Hornets / 8.0214
13. Orlando Magic / 8.0233
14. Brooklyn Nets / 8.0345
15. Philadelphia 76ers / 8.0938
   515. aberg Posted: October 17, 2019 at 07:51 PM (#5891436)
The last of those three assertions is much more clearly true than the others, I think; especially considering how KG's best traits (defensive versatility, offensive versatility, switching, passing, spacing, screening) are inextricable from the team context he was working in, while Duncan's biggest advantages over KG (post play, rebounding, being a center) are much easier to evaluate regardless of context.


I don't mean that they were stylistically identical, but it's fairly unique to have 2 of the 5 best guys to ever play a position as perfect contemporaries. That will definitely lend itself to comparison, and those comparisons tended to hurt KG a little bit because he was rarely the best player at his position, so how could he be one of the best ever?
   516. If on a winter's night a new father Posted: October 17, 2019 at 08:34 PM (#5891450)
it's fairly unique to have 2 of the 5 best guys to ever play a position as perfect contemporaries. That will definitely lend itself to comparison, and those comparisons tended to hurt KG a little bit because he was rarely the best player at his position, so how could he be one of the best ever?
I strongly suspect you're begging the question here by assuming that the best player at a position is the most accomplished player at that position. For the sake of argument, it is easy to imagine that KG's lifting a series of absolutely trash teammates up to mediocre and a bunch of mediocre teammates up to good being a bigger and more overlooked impact than Duncan's raising a bunch of really excellent teammates up to great. Also, Duncan's greatness was more closely correlated to the box score statistics, so it's easier to point to; but, to cherry-pick a counter-example, Garnett had the higher RAPM on offense, defense, and overall. I'm not saying RAPM alone is appropriate for measuring greatness; but if you want to make the case that a player had an inordinately large impact outside of box score statistics, as I am with Garnett, then it's one of the few objective measures available to support the case.

Of course, even if Duncan never reached the heights Garnett did (a contested proposition at best, though my biased ass believes it to be true), Duncan had spectacular longevity in addition to good old-fashioned, obvious greatness, so depending on how you weight peak vs career value, you still might tap Duncan as the better overall player. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
   517. CFBF's Overflowing Pathos Posted: October 17, 2019 at 08:50 PM (#5891458)
Tim Duncan definitely had the better Onion persona.
   518. spivey Posted: October 17, 2019 at 09:10 PM (#5891460)
Yeah, Duncan has some pretty great playoff runs and the rings, but my memory is there was talk of the two of them and who would you take. I think most people were taking Duncan after the early ring, but the advanced stats tell a more complicated story.
   519. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 17, 2019 at 09:24 PM (#5891464)
irrespective of duncan v garnett
it is easy to imagine [that] lifting a series of absolutely trash teammates up to mediocre and a bunch of mediocre teammates up to good being a bigger and more overlooked impact than [] raising a bunch of really excellent teammates up to great.
is a position i've long held and have been moving away from.
   520. spivey Posted: October 17, 2019 at 09:53 PM (#5891470)
Garnett’s career got absolutely nerfed by the Joe Smith debacle.

Also, Zion you better stay healthy on me.
   521. tshipman Posted: October 18, 2019 at 01:25 AM (#5891512)
I don't mean that they were stylistically identical, but it's fairly unique to have 2 of the 5 best guys to ever play a position as perfect contemporaries. That will definitely lend itself to comparison, and those comparisons tended to hurt KG a little bit because he was rarely the best player at his position, so how could he be one of the best ever?


I have always thought that Garnett was better than Duncan every year until they were both 33 or so. Garnett has the best three years by advance stats, but also the 5 worst.

Garnett was also the more versatile player.

I think Duncan is one of the most overrated players of the modern era (Kobe is probably the most overrated). People look at the five championships, and just kind of want to round him up as being the only guy there for all of them.
   522. tshipman Posted: October 18, 2019 at 01:28 AM (#5891513)
it is easy to imagine [that] lifting a series of absolutely trash teammates up to mediocre and a bunch of mediocre teammates up to good being a bigger and more overlooked impact than [] raising a bunch of really excellent teammates up to great.


Btw, I just want to point out that this is a false choice when it comes to Garnett because he did both in his career. I would argue that he was a better floor raiser and a better ceiling lifter than Duncan.
   523. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: October 18, 2019 at 02:45 AM (#5891517)
I have said a few times that I think Garnett and Paul are the most underrated great players of the last 25 years or so, if you are looking at that question as people traditionally look at it--what is is said in the old-school MSM, "water cooler" talk, casual on-line talk, click-bait rankings, etc. I think Garnett is appreciated by the sabermetric media, which in today's landscape is in many respects part of the MSM.

As to Garnett vs. Duncan, I think they were pretty even. If Garnett had been drafted by the Spurs and Duncan had been drafted by the Timberwolves, I think Garnett would have 4 or 5 rings. If they were both 20 years old right now, I think Garnett would probably do a little better than Duncan would, since I think Garnett could adapt better to the way bigs who can do it are used in modern schemes now. I don't think Anthony Davis is quite as good as either of them, but he is very close, and is the only guy in the league right now of that type. Embiid is obviously outstanding too, but he is a different type of player, as is Antetokounmpo.

Bryant was not as good as either Garnett or Duncan, but it is understandable why he is talked about that way in some parts of the MSM.

As I and others noted at the time, Bryant, Garnett, and Duncan all officially retired after the 2015-16 season, so they will all be in the same HOF induction ceremony, which will probably mean it will be the first one I actually watch live.
   524. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: October 18, 2019 at 09:23 AM (#5891536)
Had the ping pong balls dropped differently we could have had Duncan and Garnett both on the Wolves. Even the Wolves couldn't have screwed that up.
   525. jmurph Posted: October 18, 2019 at 10:03 AM (#5891548)
I have said a few times that I think Garnett and Paul (Pierce) are the most underrated great players of the last 25 years or so

Wow, RR, this is surprising (ha).
   526. tshipman Posted: October 18, 2019 at 11:19 AM (#5891579)
Pierce's PPM* in the Finals is the greatest of all time. He never gets enough credit for that.

*poops per minute
   527. Paul d mobile Posted: October 18, 2019 at 11:56 AM (#5891601)
Zion to miss the first few weeks of the season with a knee injury. That sucks
   528. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: October 18, 2019 at 12:03 PM (#5891605)
Also, Zion you better stay healthy on me.


Jesus Christ, spivey, this one is on you.
   529. Booey Posted: October 18, 2019 at 12:21 PM (#5891620)
I don't think Anthony Davis is quite as good as either of them, but he is very close, and is the only guy in the league right now of that type. Embiid is obviously outstanding too, but he is a different type of player, as is Antetokounmpo.


Towns is sort of that type of player too, no?
   530. jmurph Posted: October 18, 2019 at 12:28 PM (#5891632)
I wonder how many games that turns into for Zion. What a bummer.
   531. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 18, 2019 at 01:07 PM (#5891646)
Warriors cut McKinnie (to make room for Chriss). It was rumored but I'm still surprised. (Not that I think he's very good.)

Their hard capping themselves + not creating more room was dumb, imo.
--
How confident are we that the Warriors are well run? (versus "lucked" into getting Curry on the cheap, drafting Green, and being in the right place at the right time for Durant. I am not trying to wish those three things away, mind you.)
   532. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 18, 2019 at 01:29 PM (#5891652)
more official barefoot heights! (my s.o.p. with these is to add 1.25" to get height in shoes)

klay: 6-7 -> 6-5
durant: 6-9 -> 6-9.5
lebron: 6-8 -> 6-8.5
brow: 6-11 -> 6-9.75
dwight: 6-11 -> 6-9.75

lebron is really the only surprise for me there.
   533. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: October 18, 2019 at 01:32 PM (#5891656)
I think Duncan is one of the most overrated players of the modern era (Kobe is probably the most overrated). People look at the five championships, and just kind of want to round him up as being the only guy there for all of them.

I disagree pretty strongly with this, as you might guess from our Duncan versus Shaq debates years ago. Tony Parker is probably the most overrated player of the modern era. He was pretty much at all times an average starting point guard, yet he's a 6-time All-Star, Finals MVP, and surefire Hall of Famer because people naturally expect that a high-usage point guard on championship teams is really good. Duncan, on the other hand, wasn't just the only guy there for every title but either arguably or clearly the best player on each of those teams.

Garnett's one of my favorite players, and he's often criminally underrated, but that doesn't make Duncan overrated. In 2003 Duncan had maybe the greatest individual playoff run ever. With remarkably little help, he led the Spurs over Shaq/Kobe, Dirk/Nash, and Kidd's best team, culminating with him averaging 24/17/5/5 in the (very low-scoring) Finals. And as discussed at length back in the day, the Duncan Spurs are the most consistently dominant defensive team in modern times. I don't know who deserves the defensive edge between Garnett and Duncan, but they're both among the best few defenders of the 2000s.

I think Duncan's edge over Garnett is entirely based on the playoffs, and it's interesting to think about how fair that is. On the one hand, Duncan had a better organization, coach, and teammates for the bulk of his career. That resulted in far more and better opportunities for playoff success. On the other hand, on an individual level, Duncan's offense held up better in the playoffs than Garnett's. Garnett relied more on his teammates offensively, and given the style of play at the time, Duncan was better suited to take over playoff games. They were similarly great defensively in the playoffs, so I'm confident that Duncan was at least slightly better as a postseason player. In today's game I wonder if that trend would reverse itself, with Garnett holding a playoff performance edge because his defense is better suited for the current playoff style (teams going smaller, spreading the floor, and trying to generate open 3s), while offensively their value would be similar.
   534. JJ1986 Posted: October 18, 2019 at 01:32 PM (#5891658)
I thought the Warriors hardcapping themselves was dumb, but it makes some sense if you're not playing for this year and want to get a bigger asset. I don't understand why they gave Looney that contract once they had done so.
   535. aberg Posted: October 18, 2019 at 01:33 PM (#5891659)
We had the KG-Duncan debates enough in the early years of this thread that I just kind of accepted that most people preferred Duncan. KG is my favorite player ever by a mile, so I obviously want to take him. I think there are valid arguments in both directions. I just didn't want to bang my head against that particular wall again this week. Happy to see others are open to the KG arguments, too. I agree that there is a fair amount of similarity between Davis and the young version of KG. The big difference is that KG was extremely durable until he got quite old.

How confident are we that the Warriors are well run? (versus "lucked" into getting Curry on the cheap, drafting Green, and being in the right place at the right time for Durant. I am not trying to wish those three things away, mind you.)



In their favor- sticking with Curry when he was injury-prone and getting him through that; not trading Klay for Love when most people thought they would; getting the most out of a very volatile player in Green; being forward-looking enough to understand the impact of the cap spike and make the Durant situation work. Iguodala has been a perfect supporting player for that group, so credit for acquiring him and prioritizing keeping him. Maybe this is the kind of thing where we err by making judgments based on outputs rather than inputs, but it seems like poorly run organizaitons do things like sell low on Curry or publicly feud with a guy like Green until they trade him. Being patient enough for good things to develop is a skill, too.

I will add that it's crazy how many "lucky" things tend to happen to organizaitons affiliated with Jerry West. He was lucky enough to get Magic and Kareem together, to trade for Kobe, to get Shaq to force his way to LA, to engineer a really good trade for Gasol, to develop the GS trio, and to land Kawhi/George together. He's either amazingly good at things we don't see or the luckiest man ever.
   536. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 18, 2019 at 01:53 PM (#5891668)
I agree with all of that, aberg. (Note: West is now gone.)

They also seemed to be doing some of the small stuff well (drafting Green was small stuff at one point, I guess). But I have been consistently scratching my head at a lot of what they've done of late.

--

How good is Looney is an interesting question.

It's not just that they hardcapped themselves but what they then decided to do after they knew their limitations.
   537. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: October 18, 2019 at 02:07 PM (#5891674)
I will add that it's crazy how many "lucky" things tend to happen to organizaitons affiliated with Jerry West. He was lucky enough to get Magic and Kareem together, to trade for Kobe, to get Shaq to force his way to LA, to engineer a really good trade for Gasol, to develop the GS trio, and to land Kawhi/George together. He's either amazingly good at things we don't see or the luckiest man ever.


West: He was actually working for Memphis when Pao came here, which was one reason people freaked out about the deal. He did engineer a good deal for Marc. Ha. I do not see it as luck. As I have noted, he did a very nice job assembling the starless/but pretty good Lake Show teams that helped to draw Shaq, and he drafted Vlade Divac in the first round at a time when teams were not drafting foreign guys--and Vlade was the guy he traded to Charlotte to get Kobe. He supposedly was against trading Klay Thompson for Kevin Love, and since he has been with the Clippers, they have navigated moving Doc Rivers out of the FO and were able to put a decent team on the floor after cutting bait on Paul and Griffin--which set up the George/Leonard thing.

Both Shaq and Kobe respected him and their relationship worsened after he left. Durant spoke highly of him as well. So, I think that West seems to combine gravitas, organizational/business acumen, some old-school scouting chops, media savvy, and an understanding of the need to do whatever you have to do to get superstars. Luck and timing have been involved: Shaq wanted to be in kids' movies, Curry and Kerr pre-dated West, and Leonard and George are LA guys. But it has happened too often for West's skills not to be part of it.

Edit: the urban legend is that West wanted to draft Sidney Moncrief but Jerry Buss liked the marketing possibilities of Magic, and that that is one of two reasons--the other being Jeanie Buss' relationship with Phil Jackson and West's hatred of Phil--that West has not come back to the Lakers.
   538. spivey Posted: October 18, 2019 at 02:18 PM (#5891677)
With Golden State (and San Antonio, for that matter) - I think the NBA is evolving so quickly, that a team that was "smart" 10 years ago may not be anymore, if they've been standing still. Baseball is another clear example of this.

I also think that drafting and developing players as a potentially different skill than the rest of roster building and style of play type things.
   539. rr: calming the thread down with my arms Posted: October 18, 2019 at 02:19 PM (#5891679)
Towns: Fair point. I did not include him because I do not see him as a defensive anchor the way that Garnett and Duncan were.

Golden State: Like any dynasty, they have been very smart, spent money when they had to, have caught some breaks, and have had good timing. I was not big on the Russell thing, although as noted I have a higher opinion of Russell than shipman does. I think they still have a pretty good team right now, and could be dangerous in postseason. I also think that in the NBA you can be well-run and never win a title.

Garnett: "aberg on KG's underrated place in history" will be another recurring feature on the BBTF NBA Podscast:

rr on anti-Lakers media bias
Booey on small market challenges
tshipman on 3P variance
Several Boston fans on the upsides and hidden value of Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, and Marcus Smart
Der-K on every team's 13th and 14th roster spots
stiggles on the horror and evil of Markelle Fultz



   540. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 18, 2019 at 02:21 PM (#5891680)
I think that may be a thing for SA. The issue I have with GS are much more recent - and harder for me to understand.
   541. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 18, 2019 at 02:24 PM (#5891681)
Der-K on every team's 13th and 14th roster spots

Would love to do this; would be the least popular segment imaginable.
   542. aberg Posted: October 18, 2019 at 02:49 PM (#5891690)
I agree with all of that, aberg. (Note: West is now gone.)

They also seemed to be doing some of the small stuff well (drafting Green was small stuff at one point, I guess). But I have been consistently scratching my head at a lot of what they've done of late.


Exactly. And LAC started getting these same breaks going their way shortly after West left GSW for LA. He's a witch.
   543. jmurph Posted: October 18, 2019 at 03:05 PM (#5891692)
Several Boston fans on the upsides and hidden value of Jayson Tatum, Jaylen Brown, and Marcus Smart

How DARE you leave out Carsen Edwards!
   544. jmurph Posted: October 18, 2019 at 03:07 PM (#5891695)
Wait why are we confused about the Looney contract? He's at worst a very good backup center (though I think he's better than that), and he's making next to nothing. That's a great contract.
   545. DCA Posted: October 18, 2019 at 03:32 PM (#5891699)
As a Warriors fan, I really like their recent moves. I mean, they are about to take a nose dive from the heights of the last 5 years, but the loss of Durant and Klay makes that a given. Considering their constraints I think they did well. These constraints are:

(1) They are opening a new arena and need to (a) be competitive and (b) resign Klay to a max contract to maintain goodwill
(2) Durant was leaving
(3) Klay is hurt
(4) Curry and Klay are making like 2/3 of the cap between for the foreseeable future

Given those constraints, they managed to

(4) Bring back Draymond for 4 more years
(5) Add a young all-star for 4 years
(6) Keep Looney for 3 years (their 5th best player)
(7) Add a good center for 2019-20 to position-share with Looney

I don't think there's an alternate scenario, given their constraints, that is any better. It's not an ideal situation - but the costs (hard cap, no 15th guy, paying for Iguodala to go away, losing Cousins, losing Jerebko, losing McKinnie) are not things that you worry about if you can do (4)-(7). I didn't particularly like their draft, but where they were picking it's not like there was an obviously better option (though it's hard to see them pass on Bol Bol three times given the family connection and the need for bigs).
   546. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 18, 2019 at 03:55 PM (#5891707)
I had no issue with the Looney deal.
--
They did weird little stuff like pay a lot of money to dump Napier (who, while redundant as a point, would be one of the better bench guys by some margin) and Graham (who isn't any worse than their other threes) - and who both make the minimum. Who cares - it's just money not cap space! Except that you are limited in how much money you trade away per year and they're capped out (if you will). They're almost out of second rounders now as well - if they want to make moves, they've very very few pieces with which to do them.
To sign Russell, they needed to move Iggy. Sure, no problem. (Whether or not Russell is worth is is a reasonable conversation but, hey, young A-S, I get it.) They paid a lot to do that, relative to salary - think they could've gotten more protections on that pick. I think they mishandled the Smailagic pick (who I kind of sort of like though he has zero jumper whatsoever, but they telegraphed that they wanted him so hard that that cost them an extra second as ransom). Moving from Jones (who is bad) to Spellman (who is less bad) cost them a second. Don't like the Poole pick. Don't like the Paschall pick. Don't like the Oni pick. Don't understand the failure to sign better small forward options. Can't sign injury replacements with out stretching guys or killing their late season flexibility (they'll be able to do a little w/ a prorated MLE later on).
The big stuff is waaaaay more important than the little stuff and I, as is long established, really sweat the small stuff. They f'ed up the small stuff.
   547. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 18, 2019 at 04:18 PM (#5891718)
Meant prorated minimum(s)
   548. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 18, 2019 at 04:47 PM (#5891727)
Zion's hurt. He'll out a few weeks at least.
   549. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 18, 2019 at 04:58 PM (#5891732)
Who?
   550. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: October 18, 2019 at 05:01 PM (#5891733)
Oops. I should looked up-thread. I guess breaking old news is going to be the Hombre thing.
   551. JJ1986 Posted: October 18, 2019 at 06:26 PM (#5891759)
Wait why are we confused about the Looney contract? He's at worst a very good backup center (though I think he's better than that), and he's making next to nothing. That's a great contract.
He's probably worth it (though I'm not sure how many minutes he can play), but that's about the going rate for backup centers the last few years. Looney was really the only discretionary spending that they had (I think they also gave WCS a little more than they had to) and I would have used it on the wing instead if they wanted to use it on one player. Once they signed Russell, they had to either stick to basically minimums or be in this situation where they're stuck with 14 players and can't even dump guys like Spellman instead of more useful players.
   552. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 18, 2019 at 07:03 PM (#5891763)
I think Looney can play either the 4 or 5 and likely would have beat that offer were that I ran other teams. (To that end, I thought he said he gave them a hometown discount.)

Once they signed Russell, they had to either stick to basically minimums or be in this situation where they're stuck with 14 players and can't even dump guys like Spellman instead of more useful players.

I think they had a bit (only a bit) more wiggle room than that. But - they did what they did.
   553. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 18, 2019 at 07:45 PM (#5891776)
Sabonis reportedly on the block, which isn't a surprise.
   554. tshipman Posted: October 18, 2019 at 08:40 PM (#5891791)
With Golden State (and San Antonio, for that matter) - I think the NBA is evolving so quickly, that a team that was "smart" 10 years ago may not be anymore, if they've been standing still. Baseball is another clear example of this.

I also think that drafting and developing players as a potentially different skill than the rest of roster building and style of play type things.


Strongly agree with both of these statements.

Look at how quickly the NBA has shifted, even from 2016. In 2016, Golden State led the NBA in 3p attempts, percentage and makes, swapped out Harrison Barnes for Kevin Durant ... and took fewer 3pers the next year.
   555. Howie Menckel Posted: October 18, 2019 at 11:50 PM (#5891833)
"Here are my Even More Meaningful Updated Official standings, which I intend to take straight to Vegas"

or DE, NJ, MS, WV, NM, PA, RI, AR, NY, IA, IN, or OR

and momentarily, it appears, in TN, NC, MT, IL, NH
   556. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 19, 2019 at 02:19 PM (#5891908)
Siakam signed a 4 year max extension
Griz cut Plumlee and Rabb.
(Dozens of fringe moves will happen today as the league preps final roster and churns through guys for the G league.)
   557. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 19, 2019 at 03:06 PM (#5891925)
Bucks sign Jemerrio Jones. His deal has an E10 provision, so this might be just to stash him in the minors.
Hornets converted Caleb Martin’s deal into a two-way, as part of the NBA’s policy of occasionally letting twins play together.
   558. tshipman Posted: October 19, 2019 at 03:37 PM (#5891945)
Siakam signed a 4 year max extension


This surprises me. I don't think I would have offered this if I were Toronto.

The big stuff is waaaaay more important than the little stuff and I, as is long established, really sweat the small stuff. They f'ed up the small stuff.


I feel like the little stuff is super idiosyncratic, and there is room to criticize literally every team on the little stuff. The Warriors looked like gods of the little stuff when they were getting David West to sign at the minimum and turning Quinn Cook into a useful player.

They look pretty awful this year when they're starting Glen Robinson III at small forward and Marquese Chriss at Center.

Teams that look great at the little stuff are either: bad teams who have zero risk or good teams who don't need little stuff to pan out.
   559. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 19, 2019 at 04:04 PM (#5891951)
Small stuff: the thing is, there’s a difference between “not doing what I think they should do” and “doing dumb things”. I rarely criticize teams on small stuff as most of their choices are understandable - particularly if you don’t know their exact goals, whether I like those moves or not.
The warriors are stabbing themselves in the foot... and it might cost them a postseason spot.

As for Siakam, waiting would be great but I don’t know how that would impact their relationship with the player — I get acting now.

Quin Snyder got an extension.
   560. tshipman Posted: October 19, 2019 at 06:52 PM (#5891979)
Small stuff: the thing is, there’s a difference between “not doing what I think they should do” and “doing dumb things”. I rarely criticize teams on small stuff as most of their choices are understandable - particularly if you don’t know their exact goals, whether I like those moves or not.
The warriors are stabbing themselves in the foot... and it might cost them a postseason spot.


If they stabbed themselves in the foot (which is debatable, all these moves *could* work out) it was by signing D-Lo. The big stuff dictated the bad path on the small stuff. They took a risky path on the small stuff because they felt like they had to.

Like, all the bad trades/moves came from the D-lo move. Iguodala, Graham, all of it.
   561. RJ in TO Posted: October 19, 2019 at 08:26 PM (#5892005)
This surprises me. I don't think I would have offered this if I were Toronto.
Why?
   562. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: October 19, 2019 at 10:17 PM (#5892066)
Sabonis reportedly on the block, which isn't a surprise.


I'm fond of Myles Turner, but I think Indiana is keeping the wrong guy. That said, they do need to pick one and move the other because I don't think you can get away with giving that much cap space to two good-not-great centers in the modern NBA.
   563. Best Dressed Chicken in Town Posted: October 19, 2019 at 10:30 PM (#5892072)
I think Siakam is about to become a top-10 player.
   564. tshipman Posted: October 19, 2019 at 10:39 PM (#5892078)
Why [would you not have offered Siakam a max]?


Siakam is a good player--I've been shilling for him since the mock draft. I think I picked him for the Clippers (I think I also picked Dragan Bender, so ... you know ... this is a good illustration of Der-K's point about small and big moves). I just don't think he's a max guy, and they should be looking to get more flexible under the cap.

There's a longer version of this answer, but basically, I don't think he's a #1 or #2 guy on a Finals team, and putting him on a max means that you can't get back draft capital if you trade him.
If I'm wrong and he's a superstar, you can probably get him back with the 5th year and the history.
   565. RJ in TO Posted: October 19, 2019 at 10:47 PM (#5892087)
Thanks for the response.
   566. DCA Posted: October 20, 2019 at 11:44 AM (#5892307)
If they stabbed themselves in the foot (which is debatable, all these moves *could* work out) it was by signing D-Lo. The big stuff dictated the bad path on the small stuff. They took a risky path on the small stuff because they felt like they had to.

The way I would phrase it is somewhat different. They took a risky path on the small stuff in order to make the big stuff happen.

The Russell acquisition left them little room for error - even beyond the direct cost of dumping Iguodala and others. Bringing back Looney (which I would also put in the big stuff bucket, he's good and signed well below market value) left them no breathing room.

The rest of the small stuff - paying to dump guys, selling Oni, etc - that's the cost of doing the big stuff. We've all seen big moves hung up because of small stuff. This was all happening, quickly, in real time, and what some see as mistakes or foot-stabbing I see as making sure that they didn't lose Russell or Looney during their small window of possibility.

I don't think they did a particularly good job of filling around Curry/Klay/Dray/Russell/Looney (other than WCS, who I think is an ideal fit for the team) but there's no amount of nailing the small stuff that would have been worth threatening those core 5 moves.
   567. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 20, 2019 at 04:08 PM (#5892347)
My argument is predicated on GS wanting to do 2 things:
- sign those guys
- make the playoffs in year 1 of SF

If the second isn’t true, a lot of my arguments don’t matter. (Also, if the Russell signing is explicitly part of a later trade (Minnesota?), the logic changes here too.)

But if they do, they want to minimize the number of minutes they give to sub-replacement players ... with the caveat that they won’t know who they will be in advance, but they will have an unprecedented lack of flexibility going forward so be risk averse. To do that, they’ll want to sign minimum wage vets, where the league subsidizes the contract (cap wise), where possible.
The money used to move Graham/Napier was around what I think it would have cost to move Livingston, who was stretched. That only gets them 2/3rds of a mil, but that about the difference from between a rookie min and a vet min. Napier looks to be a league average backup point for near minimum - that frankly likely has positive value but I think you could safely assume that he could have been traded into cap space, sans payoff. Graham is tougher but also: wasn’t guaranteed for much initially and is as good as your other wing options and likely a good fit for GS’s stars. Similarly, instead of spellman for Jones and a pick, they could have just given up the pick (solid return for a tiny, bad 1 year deal) and made room for another vet. It’s not hard to find decent veteran bigs for that price - Mike Muscala would be a better on both ends version in the short term, for example. (or Jeff green or fill in a name here) I’d also have considered moving one of the rookies, like Poole. Higher year 1 play, get some asset back (which they may need come trade season), and lower salary. Also explore the Euroleague free agent market - I can envision someone taking a one year minimum deal to take a crack at the NBA (and it would be at the cheaper rookie rate, which they need to use in places). Etc...

This still leaves them with a below average bench to be sure but better able to withstand injuries to their core, which likely will happen.
   568. tshipman Posted: October 20, 2019 at 04:33 PM (#5892349)
Similarly, instead of spellman for Jones and a pick, they could have just given up the pick (solid return for a tiny, bad 1 year deal) and made room for another vet. It’s not hard to find decent veteran bigs for that price - Mike Muscala would be a better on both ends version in the short term, for example. (or Jeff green or fill in a name here)


Der-K, I think this is where the point about how you can always complain about the small stuff comes into play.

If you're wasting roster spots on Centers (and the Warriors seem to do that every year) when your best lineup features Draymond there, then it's hard to say it's an optimal use of resources to pick up a vet when you already have Looney and Cauley-Stein. Both of those guys being injured looks bad now when it means you're taking Chriss over McKinnie out of camp, but I would argue picking up known mediocrity like Mike Muscala is a guaranteed waste of a roster spot.

Similarly, Graham vs. Glenn Robinson III, I mean I think that Graham is better, but the Warriors presumably don't agree. Graham can't guard 3s, and he shot below 30% from 3p range.

When you're choosing between bad options like GR3 and Graham, or spending your last $$ on Marquese Chriss vs. Mike Muscala, there's going to be a lot of people taking shots, but that's mostly because you're choosing between bad options.

In my opinion, the thing the Warriors got wrong was deciding that they HAD to have DeAngelo.
   569. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 20, 2019 at 05:32 PM (#5892358)
Graham v Robinson: they could have had both is part of my point.
Known mediocrities should have more value to the Ws than any other team in the league, imo. It’s a bridge year, build a bridge.
   570. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: October 20, 2019 at 07:14 PM (#5892371)
Listened to a pretty persuasive case this afternoon that the biggest chasm between good team and coach quality is Philadelphia.
   571. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: October 20, 2019 at 09:25 PM (#5892389)
Sabonis reportedly on the block, which isn't a surprise.
the sixers should get on that. rotating embiid/horford/sabonis at the 4/5, with horford swinging from PF w/ embiid to C w/ sabonis, would be a great way for them to hedge against embiid's injury proneness, horford's age and the bench's questionable scoring ability. as long it doesn't cost simmons, embiid, richardson or thybulle, i'm in.
Listened to a pretty persuasive case this afternoon that the biggest chasm between good team and coach quality is Philadelphia.
i've had my own issues with some of brett brown's coaching decisions, but it's worth pointing out that his intangibles are off the charts. that's not worth throwing away the chance to win an NBA title, but i think it deservedly earns him a lot of slack.

also FWIW, 3 sixer assistants have gotten hired as head coaches in the last 4 years (lloyd pierce, monty williams and dan tony).

also, as long we're questioning the coaching situations of potential contenders, let me point out that jason kidd is employed by one of them. good luck with that one, frank.
This surprises me. I don't think I would have offered this if I were Toronto.

the difference between siakam's contract and tobias harris's is 1 year/50MM. ####.
   572. tshipman Posted: October 20, 2019 at 09:41 PM (#5892390)
the sixers should get on that. rotating embiid/horford/sabonis at the 4/5, with horford swinging from PF w/ embiid to C w/ sabonis, would be a great way for them to hedge against embiid's injury proneness, horford's age and the bench's questionable scoring ability. as long it doesn't cost simmons, embiid, richardson or thybulle, i'm in.


Sabonis is getting traded because he can't play with one other big and you want him to play with two other ones?

the difference between siakam's contract and tobias harris's is 1 year/50MM. ####.


Well, I also wouldn't have given Harris that contract (or traded for him).
   573. calming him down with his 57i66135 Posted: October 20, 2019 at 09:55 PM (#5892391)
Sabonis is getting traded because he can't play with one other big and you want him to play with two other ones?

a few things:
1: are you unfamiliar with my posting history? there is no basketball question that i wouldn't answer by suggesting the addition of another big.
2: there are a few logical jumps in your post:
A: Sabonis is getting traded because IND thinks he can't play with one other big and you want him to play with two other ones
B: Sabonis is getting traded because IND thinks he can't play with myles turner and you want him to play with two other ones
C: Sabonis is getting traded because IND thinks it's not worth paying him to play with myles turner and you want him to play with two other ones
D: Sabonis is getting traded because IND isn't willing to pay him and myles turner.
   574. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 20, 2019 at 11:10 PM (#5892410)
Boston should get in on Sabonis, no?
   575. tshipman Posted: October 20, 2019 at 11:25 PM (#5892412)
Boston should get in on Sabonis, no?


You would think, right? Easily the most sensible trade partners: Jaylen for Sabonis straight up clears logjams on both teams.
   576. JJ1986 Posted: October 21, 2019 at 09:13 AM (#5892443)
I would give a hearty recommendation to Nate Duncan's new podcast featuring John Hollinger. John is pretty open to talking (at least in generalities) about his time with a team and it's really cool to have him back in the media again. First episode was out over the weekend.
   577. spivey Posted: October 21, 2019 at 09:21 AM (#5892447)
I agree with 574/575. Question is what you think Sabonis' defensive upside is. His advanced defensive stats were good last year probably due to some limited minutes and his good rebounding. He'll never be a huge rim protector, but he's agile enough to where I don't think he will kill you on that side, and he is a really nice player. I can't help but think Boston values Jaylen Brown higher than that, but I do think that trade makes both teams better.
   578. Thok Posted: October 21, 2019 at 09:37 AM (#5892451)
It’s possible that Chriss/Robinson will do the McGee thing of suddenly becoming better players once they’re on a team that knows something about basketball.
   579. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2019 at 09:49 AM (#5892454)
You would think, right? Easily the most sensible trade partners: Jaylen for Sabonis straight up clears logjams on both teams.

Speaking of these two: I bet this thread is going to almost unanimously hate the contracts that both of these guys end up getting. Will be interesting to see where they end up.

On this trade match, which I've seen floated a lot: I suspect both teams value their own guys higher than this?
   580. Roger McDowell spit on me! Posted: October 21, 2019 at 10:04 AM (#5892462)
If you're wasting roster spots on Centers (and the Warriors seem to do that every year) when your best lineup features Draymond there, then it's hard to say it's an optimal use of resources to pick up a vet when you already have Looney and Cauley-Stein. Both of those guys being injured looks bad now when it means you're taking Chriss over McKinnie out of camp, but I would argue picking up known mediocrity like Mike Muscala is a guaranteed waste of a roster spot.


I highly doubt the Warriors best lineup this year will include Green at center. 3/5 of why that lineup worked so well defensively either aren't Warriors now or are injured. If they want to try to use Looney in a somewhat similar switching role to Green (Looney can certainly guard 3-5, and has shown he can hold his own elsewhere), they will likely need the extra centers. I also think they are looking for upside in keeping Chriss over McKinnie - I think people sometimes forget McKinnie is already 27; while Chriss hasn't exactly set the world on fire, he's still only 22 and has more room for improvement than McKinnie.
   581. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 21, 2019 at 10:10 AM (#5892463)
Hollinger/Duncan - agree.
I like Sabonis' defense more than the consensus.
Agree w 580 as well.
   582. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2019 at 10:17 AM (#5892464)
The more I read/listen to team preview stuff, the more uncertain I am about the top 5 in the West. I suspect if enough of us post predictions we're going to get nearly all possible combinations of 1-5 for (alphabetically) Denver, Houston, LAC, LAL, and Utah.
   583. NJ in NY (Now with two kids!) Posted: October 21, 2019 at 11:23 AM (#5892487)
I know some people did this already, but as the guy who nailed the Raptors championship...I felt I needed more time to catch some preseason and assess in order to repeat as prediction champ:

WC
1. DEN
2. UTA
3. HOU
4. LAC
5. LAL
6. POR
7. DAL
8. OKC
GSW
SAC
MIN
SAS
NOP
PHX
MEM

DEN over OKC
UTA over DAL
HOU over POR
LAL over LAC

LAL over DEN
UTA over HOU

LAL over UTA


EC
1. PHI
2. MIL
3. TOR
4. BOS
5. MIA
6. ORL
7. IND
8. BRK
DET
CHI
ATL
WAS
NYK
CLE
CHA

PHI over BRK
MIL over IND
TOR over ORL
MIA over BOS

PHI over MIA
MIL over TOR

PHI over MIL

PHI over LAL

MVP - Jokic
COY - Nick Nurse
DPOY - Embiid
6MOY - Lou Williams
ROY - RJ Barrett
   584. It's regretful that PASTE was able to get out Posted: October 21, 2019 at 11:31 AM (#5892492)
On this trade match, which I've seen floated a lot: I suspect both teams value their own guys higher than this?


Sure. There's also the fact Boston is actively trying to sign Brown to an extension.

Per the Trade Machine Boston would have to throw in ~$3M worth of salary to make the trade work, which they might not be able to do easily, without sending out a young player they'd rather keep. Brown's current ultra-low salary actually makes trading him difficult for Boston.
   585. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2019 at 11:32 AM (#5892493)
Dammit NJ I wanted to be the guy on the "OKC is definitely making the playoffs" corner.

Honestly, that starting five is really good!
   586. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: October 21, 2019 at 11:45 AM (#5892502)
Yeah, I haven't made my full season predictions yet either...

1. Philly
2. Milwaukee
3. Toronto
4. Boston
5. Miami
6. Brooklyn
7. Chicago
8. Indianapolis
9. Orlando
10. Detroit
11. Atlanta
12. Charlotte
13. New York
14. Cleveland
15. DC

PHI over INDY
MIL over CHI
BRK over TOR
MIA over BOS

PHI over MIA
MIL over BRK

MIL over PHI


1. Utah
2. Denver
3. LA Clippers
4. LA Lakers
5. Houston
6. Portland
7. Golden State
8. Dallas
9. New Orleans
10. Oklahoma City
11. Sacramento
12. San Antonio
13. Minnesota
14. Memphis
15. Phoenix

UTA over DAL
DEN over GS
LAC over POR
LAL over HOU

LAL over UTA
LAC over DEN

LAC over LAL

MIL over LAC

MVP: Giannis
DPOY: Gobert
ROY: Zion
6th man: Ingles
COY: Snyder
   587. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2019 at 12:00 PM (#5892516)
1. Sixers
2. Bucks
3. Celtics
4. Raptors
5. Magic
6. Nets
7. Heat
8. Bulls
9. Pistons
10. Pacers
11. Hawks
12. Wizards
13. Cavs
14. Knicks
15. Horcats

Sixers over Bulls
Bucks over Heat
Celtics over Nets
Raptors over Magic

Sixers over Raptors
Bucks over Celtics

Bucks over Sixers

1. Nuggets
2. Rockets
3. Clippers
4. Jazz
5. Lakers
6. Blazers
7. Thunder
8. Warriors
9. Spurs
10. Mavs
11. Pelicans
12. Kings
13. Suns
14. Wolves
15. Grizzlies

Nuggets over Warriors
Rockets over Thunder
Clippers over Blazers
Lakers over Jazz

Lakers over Nuggets
Clippers over Rockets

Lakers over Clippers

Lakers over Bucks

MVP: Jokic
DPOY: Gobert
ROY: Morant (Zion misses a ton of games)
6th man: Horford
COY: Brett Brown
   588. DCA Posted: October 21, 2019 at 12:01 PM (#5892517)
Per the Trade Machine Boston would have to throw in ~$3M worth of salary to make the trade work

Per my just-now experience with the trade machine, incoming salary to IND needs to be cut by a quarter mil to make it work. Or the Pacers have to add salary.

E.g., this works.
   589. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2019 at 12:06 PM (#5892521)
I'm picking the Sixers to win a lot of games and go far, like everyone else, but I'm still really skeptical of the offense. So I'm hedging by giving Horford 6th man, which is admittedly dumb but at some point I think they're going to realize they need to start an actual guard.
   590. JJ1986 Posted: October 21, 2019 at 12:10 PM (#5892524)
Per the Trade Machine Boston would have to throw in ~$3M worth of salary to make the trade work
This doesn't make sense. Brown makes more than Sabonis.
   591. JJ1986 Posted: October 21, 2019 at 12:18 PM (#5892528)
Western Conference

1. Utah
2. Houston
3. LA
4. Los Angeles
5. Denver
6. Portland
7. Golden State
8. San Antonio (I was going to pick New Orleans until the Zion injury)
9. Sacramento
10. New Orleans
11. Dallas
12. Oklahoma City
13. Minnesota
14. Phoenix
15. Memphis

Lakers over Nuggets
Clippers over Blazers
Warriors over Rockets
Jazz over Spurs

Lakers over Jazz
Clippers over Warriors

Clippers over Lakers

Eastern Conference

1. Milwaukee
2. Philadelphia
3. Boston
4. Toronto
5. Brooklyn
6. Miami
7. Indiana
8. Chicago
9. Detroit
10. Orlando
11. Atlanta
12. New York
13. Cleveland
14. Charlotte
15. Washington

Nets over Raptors
Celtics over Heat
Sixers over Pacers
Bucks over Bulls

Bucks over Nets
Sixers over Celtics

Sixers over Bucks

Sixers over Clippers

MVP: Harden
DPoY: Gobert
RoY: Herro
6th Man: Ingles
CoY: Quinn Snyder
MIP: Shamet
   592. JJ1986 Posted: October 21, 2019 at 12:20 PM (#5892530)
I thought I was going to be high on the Bulls, but they seem like a popular playoff pick.
   593. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2019 at 12:24 PM (#5892533)
I thought I was going to be high on the Bulls, but they seem like a popular playoff pick.

I'm calling this "low on everyone else" vs "high on the Bulls."
   594. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2019 at 12:39 PM (#5892538)
I'm 1. low on the Bucks, but 2. have them going to the Finals. I can't figure out the East at all. Baked into that prediction is that I think they'll make a big trade of some kind, because I don't like their supporting cast.
   595. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2019 at 12:48 PM (#5892541)
The Athletic just launched like 20 new NBA podcasts, FYI. And on itunes/etc., too, not just for subscribers.
   596. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: October 21, 2019 at 12:48 PM (#5892542)
I'm low on the Lakers, because I just think that behind the two titans up front, that roster is paper-thin, and, you know, LeBron's gotta take a step back eventually, so why not this year?
   597. TFTIO is building his own mealworm farm Posted: October 21, 2019 at 12:50 PM (#5892544)
The Athletic just launched like 20 new NBA podcasts, FYI. And on itunes/etc., too, not just for subscribers.

I hope they're actually available elsewhere, because the app itself is pants for podcast playback. I've stopped listening to stuff because they've stuck it behind their app wall.
   598. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: October 21, 2019 at 01:00 PM (#5892548)
Hield signed a 4/86 (apparently 94m is easy to get to) extension, bonuses can take it to 106m (Woj)
   599. jmurph Posted: October 21, 2019 at 01:04 PM (#5892550)
I'd feel so much better about their future if they didn't just give Barnes 4 years/$85 million.
   600. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: October 21, 2019 at 01:16 PM (#5892553)
That Hield contract seems pretty reasonable.

As I recall, the Hield pick was routinely pilloried here
(and elsewhere) because he was so old, as was Sacto trading for him. Wonder what the lesson is there.
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