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Tuesday, November 06, 2012

OT: NFL/NHL thread

i estimate that absolutely noone gives a damn about the NHL, so by folding that thread into this one, we won’t distract from what this thread is really about: boner pills, blood doping (is it low t?), and…jesus christ did mike vick just throw another ####### interception?

clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:03 AM | 7987 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nfl, nhl

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   1001. SoSH U at work Posted: January 01, 2013 at 07:22 PM (#4336315)
There's no reason the Bears shouldn't be one of the more successful teams,


Why should the Bears be expected to be one of the more successful teams?

   1002. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 01, 2013 at 07:43 PM (#4336339)
is the new coach going to be allowed to rebuild since the gm yammered about the playoffs?

I don't see why not. Doesn't have to be a complete tear down.

Why should the Bears be expected to be one of the more successful teams?

History and market. Those obviously mean less in the NFL than other leagues, but still can mean something.
   1003. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 01, 2013 at 07:46 PM (#4336343)
moses

one guy who might help is greg jennings. jennings is almost certainly gone from green bay and the guy is great from the slot.

it would pain me but it might make sense for chicago
   1004. SoSH U at work Posted: January 01, 2013 at 07:54 PM (#4336352)
History and market. Those obviously mean less in the NFL than other leagues, but still can mean something.


I don't know what it would be.
   1005. Eddo Posted: January 01, 2013 at 07:54 PM (#4336354)
Only coach now with a longer tenure is Belichick (and Reid was too, before his firing).

This is the third or fourth time I've seen this fact stated, in one way or another, and every time, people forget about Marvin Lewis.
   1006. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 01, 2013 at 07:59 PM (#4336358)
eddo

i think mike brown has forgotten about marvin lewis
   1007. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: January 01, 2013 at 08:23 PM (#4336381)
Hw, I'm no charger fan (nor much of a football guy in general) but, as I understand it, they've lost a majority of their linemen + rivers might be more susceptible than most to issues here (he's not real mobile). Lemme look for a citation...

This gives me the impression that they were down to 3 linemen (+ a replacement level guy they had just added). I know I'd heard that they were playing a tight end in that capacity at one point, out of desperation...

I could be mistaken, mind you ... again, I'm not a football guy.
   1008. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 01, 2013 at 08:29 PM (#4336387)
der

i know that the chargers line has been hard hit due to injury, poor drafting and guys leaving. but good quarterbacks still find a way to make plays.

that has been my observation

quick reference is the indy line which is pretty poor and lets luck get creamed about 10 times a game
   1009. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: January 01, 2013 at 09:07 PM (#4336434)
Yet, there are teams that make it virtually every year so that when they miss it, it's a big deal - like the Steelers this year, or the Patriots the year Brady was hurt, or when the Packers miss.

And, of course, the Patriots won 11 damn games that year but missed the playoffs.
   1010. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: January 01, 2013 at 09:18 PM (#4336452)
Oh, I think rivers has lost a step, but my conjecture is that even an subpar line bumps him up from garbage to decent.
(/2cents)
   1011. Yardape Posted: January 01, 2013 at 09:40 PM (#4336483)
I'm not sure that you'd want [A.J. Smith] picking the next coach, but I'm not convinced that he needed to go.


My understanding is that Smith had said he wouldn't fire Turner and that they were essentially a package deal at this point.
   1012. Kurt Posted: January 01, 2013 at 09:56 PM (#4336510)
The other thing that seems to have coincided with Rivers' decline is the loss of Darren Sproles.
   1013. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: January 01, 2013 at 10:01 PM (#4336516)
1011 - if so, that's foolish or asking for retirement.
1012 - oh sure, kurt
   1014. Kurt Posted: January 01, 2013 at 10:23 PM (#4336538)
Schefter is reporting that Andy Reid is 95% likely to go to the Cardinals.
   1015. Tripon Posted: January 01, 2013 at 10:29 PM (#4336541)
I'm not sure its a upgrade from Wisenhunt and Andy Reid. You can't tell me that Reid knows how to draft a QB, RB and basically an entire offense. His last 3 or 4 years shows he's not good in that area.
   1016. Kurt Posted: January 01, 2013 at 10:54 PM (#4336553)
Watkins looks like a bust, but other that that their drafting on offense doesn't seem so terrible. The problem is most of their recent high picks and big money free agents have been on defense, and *that* stinks.
   1017. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 02, 2013 at 01:15 PM (#4336913)
Adam Schefter ?@AdamSchefter
Ray Lewis announced he is retiring at the end of the season.
   1018. McCoy Posted: January 02, 2013 at 01:17 PM (#4336915)
So who are the leading candidates for the Bears' job?
   1019. Kurt Posted: January 02, 2013 at 01:19 PM (#4336920)
Apparently they're interviewing Green Bay's OC (forget his name).
   1020. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2013 at 01:26 PM (#4336929)
tom clements?

   1021. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 01:37 PM (#4336943)
Phil Emery gives a fairly thoughtful response on the O-line here.
   1022. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 02, 2013 at 01:39 PM (#4336945)
So who are the leading candidates for the Bears' job?

You. Broncos OC Mike McCoy, Buccaneers OC Mike Sullivan, Clements, Cowboys ST coach Joe DeCamillis and Falcons ST coach Keith Armstrong have interviews scheduled, from what I've seen. I've seen other names rumored, but nothing listed as interviewees yet.

I follow Brad Biggs for these updates, as his facts are usually right. He must be Bears ST coach Dave Toub's agent or something considering how much he's pushing for him to get interviewed (he asked Emery yesterday about him):

Brad Biggs ?@BradBiggs
Will be interesting to see whether or not Phil Emery and #Bears consider special teams coordinator Dave Toub for head coaching position.

Brad Biggs ?@BradBiggs
#Falcons special teams coach Keith Armstrong has interview with #Bears scheduled. If they want to look at an ST coach, explain why not Toub?

Brad Biggs ?@BradBiggs
Emery asked if Dave Toub is a candidate: "No one is excluded." That doesn't sound like he is included either.

Brad Biggs ?@BradBiggs
So, that puts 2 special teams coaches on Phil Emery's radar and while he didn't rule out Dave Toub, he didn't include him on his list today.
   1023. Eddo Posted: January 02, 2013 at 01:46 PM (#4336956)
From reports I've read so far, the Bears have requested interviews with the following:

- Mike McCoy (Denver OC)
- Keith Armstrong (Atlanta ST)
- Joe DeCamillis (Dallas ST)
- Mike Sullivan (Tampa Bay OC)
- Tom Clements (Green Bay OC)

I definitely like the fact that no defensive coordinators are in there.

And of course, candidates that are not currently affiliated with an NFL franchise do not need requests, so there might be more.
   1024. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2013 at 01:46 PM (#4336957)
chris

that was a long response.

i didn't see anything in there about coaching

did i miss that?
   1025. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 02:32 PM (#4337018)
Harvey:

Nope, but I think the focus of the discussion was on personnel. And realistically, coaching won't fix that OL, will it?
   1026. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2013 at 03:33 PM (#4337081)
chris

i am a big believer in coaching. i don't think it's coincidence that the packers draft a bunch of guys or pick up guys as undrafted free agents and get them to play. not making green bay out to be amazing just that don barclay was a nobody off the street and now he's a starting right tackle in the nfl and he's a 100 times better than gabe carimi. a gabe carimi who doesn't look at all like the guy who played at wisconsin i might add.

green bay's starting center is also an undrafted free agent. they sat pro bowler (feel free to chuckle) jeff saturday to get this guy in the lineup because he's better at run blocking. played his first game at center in the crazy dome and didn't have a blown assignment or bad snap on all silent counts

i think if you look across the league you will find similar things among good teams. offensive linemen are found under rocks and then coached up versus arriving as nearly finished products.

fundamentally i think the bears stink at coaching line play
   1027. Tom Nawrocki Posted: January 02, 2013 at 03:41 PM (#4337087)
Why would the Bears interview outside special teams coaches, when they already have the best ST coach in the league on their staff? That makes no sense at all.
   1028. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 02, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4337095)
Why would the Bears interview outside special teams coaches, when they already have the best ST coach in the league on their staff? That makes no sense at all

Because then they might have to replace the best ST coach in the league? I dunno. I guess he could pull double duty. How many ST coaches went on to become HC without another coordinator stop on the way? Seems like a big jump. FWIW (and because I've seen it mentioned elsewhere), Armstrong helps the Bears adhere to the Rooney rule (but that doesn't explain them also interviewing DeCamillis).

I have to say though, were they to hire Toub as HC, my initial reaction would be disappointment (I'm not saying that's fair to him, but an internal promotion doesn't seem like an upgrade was even attempted).
   1029. Tom Nawrocki Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:06 PM (#4337107)
How many ST coaches went on to become HC without another coordinator stop on the way?


Frank Gansz of the Chiefs is the only one I'm aware of. Which points up the entire issue: If you're going to elevate a ST coach to head coach, he had better be a truly outstanding special teams coach. And the only truly outstanding special teams coach in the league right now is Dave Toub, who has the benefit of already being on the team and having the respect of the players.

I wouldn't be thrilled about elevating Toub either, but it makes tons more sense than elevating someone else's special teams coach. Besides, if they did that, Toub would almost certainly leave, wouldn't he?
   1030. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:10 PM (#4337113)
from a pure management perspective i think you have to give one of the existing guys the courtesy of an interview to let people know there is the ability to move up in the organization

though i get taht pro sports operates a bit differently
   1031. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:12 PM (#4337120)
I wouldn't be thrilled about elevating Toub either, but it makes tons more sense than elevating someone else's special teams coach. Besides, if they did that, Toub would almost certainly leave, wouldn't he?

Yes. Even interviewing other ST coaches and not him might get him to leave (he is still under contract for next year though - all the ass't coaches technically are).

It's still weird that Biggs is stumping for him so much (those tweets are only the ones since Lovie's firing, he's brought it up multiple times throughout the year).

HW, agreed.
   1032. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:15 PM (#4337122)
BTW, I've been thinking about the Jennings suggestion. I'm not sure I think the Bears are interested in investing that much more in WR. They really need a speed guy though (what people say Hester is, and what Knox kinda was before his back injury). How are his wheels these days? Not that him and Marshall are the same guy, but I think they're not dissimilar enough to pay both guys a ton.

I would guess most of the money they spend will go into the OL and overall depth (maybe a new MLB).
   1033. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:19 PM (#4337129)
moses

jennings was leading the nfl over a healthy several year period on catches over 40 yards before he missed most of 2012. jennings gets in and out of breaks faster than anyone which is how he gets real separation.

i think speed is overrated so i am not the guy to ask about that aspect of a player.
   1034. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:24 PM (#4337138)
How many ST coaches went on to become HC without another coordinator stop on the way?

John Harbaugh
   1035. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:36 PM (#4337151)
Hmmm, Harbaugh was also the DB coach in Philly for year. He also coached all over the place in college (TE, RB, OLB, Secondary), but never was an Off or Def coordinator. I think that fits the spirit of what I'm looking for.

Unfortunately for Toub, he only has 2 years as a non-ST position coach (DL) in college. So while not that far off, he does have a more limited experience level (at least in title).
   1036. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:49 PM (#4337172)

Schefter is reporting that Andy Reid is 95% likely to go to the Cardinals.
i do not think that is a good idea. i could be wrong and it may be that getting out of philly will completely and immediately recharge andy reid's battery, but there was just so much that went wrong here in philly that it really seems farfetched to believe that he'll be able to just walk into arizona and fix their issues.

and again, i hold no ill will towards the man personally, but i would really be happy if he went the way of george seifert.
   1037. smileyy Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:53 PM (#4337176)
Maybe he could win something on a cold day, and go the way of George Allen?

BBTF is mangling the link, so:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Allen_(American_football_coach)#Death
   1038. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:07 PM (#4337188)
not making green bay out to be amazing just that don barclay was a nobody off the street and now he's a starting right tackle in the nfl and he's a 100 times better than gabe carimi. a gabe carimi who doesn't look at all like the guy who played at wisconsin i might add.

Carimi had a pretty severe knee injury last year and basically missed the entire season. I don't know enough about offensive line play to say how much his performance might be due to that one issue.
   1039. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:26 PM (#4337219)
pops

i have asked about that in other threads and nobody seems to know if it's a factor or not

   1040. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:43 PM (#4337238)
Supposedly Carimi was still hurt this year:

Dan Bernstein ?@dan_bernstein
What Emery didn't say in the o-line talk was that Carimi played on one leg all year. They think he'll be 100% for the first time for OTAs.


If true, he'll be given a chance again next year. Unsure what position that will be at (he played some RG after being benched at RT). But you know knee problems for 300lb men seem to linger. That "first time" will be ever with the Bears, as he hurt the knee in the first game of his career.
   1041. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:47 PM (#4337244)
moses

that would explain a lot since lateral movement is critical. bulaga of the packers was a turnstile some games playing on a bad leg
   1042. McCoy Posted: January 02, 2013 at 06:50 PM (#4337324)
Phil Emery gives a fairly thoughtful response on the O-line here.

Him talking about STATS and the playoffs seemed a little weird. He probably should have been comparing the STATS stuff to the other team's offensives and not who did or did not make the playoffs.
   1043. McCoy Posted: January 02, 2013 at 06:55 PM (#4337328)
Bears special teams didn't really impress me much this year. I think Hester has lost a step and the kickoff rule change has basically defanged much of the potency of special teams. Without Hester's speed it is really hard to evaluate how the Bears' ST does in their blocking assignments and so forth.
   1044. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 02, 2013 at 07:05 PM (#4337338)
The coverage unit was still top notch. And FWIW, Football Outsiders had their ST unit ranked 6th this year by their numbers.
   1045. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 02, 2013 at 11:57 PM (#4337585)
ProFootballTalk ?@ProFootballTalk
Saints O.C. Pete Carmichael is currently interviewing for the Bears' head coaching job, per league source.


Another Bears candidate.

Brad Biggs ?@BradBiggs
Don't be surprised if interviews of ST coaches Keith Armstrong & Joe DeCamillis leads back to interview for Dave Toub. http://trib.in/UdoRAG


Holy ####, dude. It's getting creepy. From the link:

If Emery wants to explore the Harbaugh model, it would seem chances are good at some point he will involve Bears special teams coordinator Dave Toub. Toub remains under contract to the Bears through 2013 so there would be no rush to sit down with him.

"No one is excluded," Emery said when asked if Toub would be interviewed. "We have some excellent coaches on our staff and I'm not excluding anybody.

"We're going to look offensively, we're going to look defensively, we're going to look special teams, we're going to look NFL, we're going to look college."

Toub interviewed for the Dolphins' head coaching job last January and has consistently operated one of the finest units in the league. Part of the appeal of a special teams coach is he is the only coach other than the head coach that works with nearly the entire roster. Emery, a strength and conditioning coach in college, has a similar background as an assistant who works with all players. In that way, he shares a common background with Toub, who was a strength coach for 15 seasons at Missouri and UTEP.


Absolutely nothing new, yet he writes another story about it.
   1046. baudib Posted: January 02, 2013 at 11:59 PM (#4337588)
Andy Reid free since 2012! It's such a weight off my shoulders, there's a chance I won't feel stupid rooting for the Eagles this year.

   1047. zack Posted: January 03, 2013 at 12:15 PM (#4337908)
   1048. Nasty Nate Posted: January 03, 2013 at 12:55 PM (#4337943)
Any football gamblers? I lost last week on GB vs the Vikings, but am tempted to bet on them again, even though they are currently giving 4.5 more points than in the game in which they couldn't cover. I fear I may be stubborn.
   1049. JJ1986 Posted: January 03, 2013 at 01:01 PM (#4337951)
Any football gamblers? I lost last week on GB vs the Vikings, but am tempted to bet on them again, even though they are currently giving 4.5 more points than in the game in which they couldn't cover. I fear I may be stubborn.


I like all 4 home teams this weekend, which worries me because I think 2-3 road teams usually cover on WC weekend. I'll probably only bet Houston because I see them running all over the Bengals.
   1050. Nasty Nate Posted: January 03, 2013 at 01:09 PM (#4337961)
I like all 4 home teams this weekend, which worries me because I think 2-3 road teams usually cover on WC weekend. I'll probably only bet Houston because I see them running all over the Bengals.


Interesting. I was leaning towards Cinci.
   1051. hokieneer Posted: January 03, 2013 at 01:39 PM (#4337980)
So as a Chiefs fan, should I be excited about the possibility of Andy Reid? I know he doesn't quite understand the need to run the ball, and is incapable of TO/clock management, but KC hasn't won a playoff game since '93 and has ran out Herm Edwards, Todd Haley, and Romeo Crennel as HC this past decade. Even if I might lose a handful of remotes against the wall while watching him try to execute a 2 min drill, this has to be a sizable upgrade for the franchise? Right?
   1052. DA Baracus Posted: January 03, 2013 at 02:18 PM (#4338031)
So as a Chiefs fan, should I be excited about the possibility of Andy Reid? I know he doesn't quite understand the need to run the ball, and is incapable of TO/clock management


Considering the alternatives, yes. I'd take him over a lot of the other names out there. And while he didn't become great at it, Eagles clock management did improve once McNabb was gone, so it turns it wasn't entirely on Reid.
   1053. McCoy Posted: January 03, 2013 at 02:45 PM (#4338066)
So is the NHL going to play this season or not?
   1054. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 03, 2013 at 02:50 PM (#4338074)
Ian Rapoport ?@RapSheet
#Bears are 1st team to put in an interview request for #Colts OC Bruce Arians, I'm told. Won't be the last. #Chargers among those interested


7th candidate. 5 OC and 2 ST.
   1055. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: January 03, 2013 at 02:56 PM (#4338081)
So as a Chiefs fan, should I be excited about the possibility of Andy Reid? I know he doesn't quite understand the need to run the ball, and is incapable of TO/clock management, but KC hasn't won a playoff game since '93 and has ran out Herm Edwards, Todd Haley, and Romeo Crennel as HC this past decade. Even if I might lose a handful of remotes against the wall while watching him try to execute a 2 min drill, this has to be a sizable upgrade for the franchise? Right?
considering that your starting quarterback is brady quinn and your best player is jamaal charles, i would not be very optimistic about andy reid's ability to improve your team.


   1056. DA Baracus Posted: January 03, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4338092)
considering that your starting quarterback is brady quinn and your best player is jamaal charles, i would not be very optimistic about andy reid's ability to improve your team.


Because Andy Reid is going to stick with Brady Quinn...
   1057. hokieneer Posted: January 03, 2013 at 03:11 PM (#4338097)
Because Andy Reid is going to stick with Brady Quinn...


Cassel and Quinn are both about to gone. I have no idea who is going to be the QB in 2013, but the Chiefs have the #1 pick, tons of cap space, a great RB, and if Bowe comes back a pretty good WR.

KC could turn around quickly. When you get rid of the worst QB and worst HC in the league, you are bound to improve the team.
   1058. JJ1986 Posted: January 03, 2013 at 03:15 PM (#4338102)
I have no idea who is going to be the QB in 2013


Michael Vick is available.
   1059. hokieneer Posted: January 03, 2013 at 03:30 PM (#4338124)
Michael Vick is available.


WOW, Someone with a TO rate that might be higher than the Chief's 2012 QB tandem.
   1060. Tripon Posted: January 03, 2013 at 03:41 PM (#4338130)
Carson Palmer might be available as well. And Reid might just go nuts and draft Matt Barkley.

By all indications, Matt Barkley, personality and intangibles wise is a great kid. Not a great arm though and not worth the number 1 pick, but I feel in a weak QB class, and despite his injuries, Barkley is still going top 5. He's basically the rich man version of Marc Sanchez, but at least you know he can start for you, and won't do the bullshit that basically made Sanchez into a joke, on and off the field. Barkley's potential is that he can be what Alex Smith currently is, a 12-20 range QB.
   1061. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: January 03, 2013 at 03:51 PM (#4338139)
By all indications, Matt Barkley, personality and intangibles wise is a great kid. Not a great arm though and not worth the number 1 pick, but I feel in a weak QB class, and despite his injuries, Barkley is still going top 5. He's basically the rich man version of Marc Sanchez, but at least you know he can start for you, and won't do the ######## that basically made Sanchez into a joke, on and off the field. Barkley's potential is that he can be what Alex Smith currently is, a 12-20 range QB.


It's a weak class for NFL draft QBs unless Aaron Murray decides to turn pro early.
   1062. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: January 03, 2013 at 04:02 PM (#4338154)
I'll admit to not being up to date on QB prospects, but some initial googling leads me to believe 1061 isn't what others are saying. Kiper doesn't have Murray in the top 5 of draft eligible non-senior QBs. CBS has Murray as the 4th ranked QB, projected in the 2nd round, and Bleacher Report* has him as the 6th QB. Seems there are some knocks on him for his height and lack of consistency. Doesn't mean he won't be good or won't be a good pick, but him declaring or not doesn't seem like it's going to change much.

*WTF? It's the 2nd hit on google, so why not I guess.
   1063. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: January 03, 2013 at 04:09 PM (#4338159)
By all indications, Matt Barkley, personality and intangibles wise is a great kid. Not a great arm though and not worth the number 1 pick, but I feel in a weak QB class, and despite his injuries, Barkley is still going top 5. He's basically the rich man version of Marc Sanchez, but at least you know he can start for you, and won't do the ######## that basically made Sanchez into a joke, on and off the field. Barkley's potential is that he can be what Alex Smith currently is, a 12-20 range QB.
didn't people used to say that mark sanchez was a rich man's matt leinart?
Cassel and Quinn are both about to gone. I have no idea who is going to be the QB in 2013, but the Chiefs have the #1 pick, tons of cap space, a great RB, and if Bowe comes back a pretty good WR.

KC could turn around quickly. When you get rid of the worst QB and worst HC in the league, you are bound to improve the team.
worst head coach? the chiefs were projected to be bad, and they were bad. the eagles, on the other hand, were projected to be a title contender, and they ended the season with a bottom 5 record.


the chiefs strength is their running game, and that's almost irrelevant for an andy reid coached team. on the other hand, their weaknesses are on defense, where reid is not likely to give a damn, with turnovers, where the eagles were every bit as bad as the chiefs, and at quarterback, where reid might help, but his recent track record there is not exactly glowing (kolb, kafka, feeley have not exactly done a whole hell of a lot, despite getting the reid seal of approval).


arizona would have been an almost ideal situation for him. they have a very, very good defense, and a world class wide receiver, and even with as low an opinion as i have of reid, he could have basically put them on auto-pilot and still had a 50/50 chance of making the playoffs.


but the chiefs are just such a terrible team that i cannot imagine that reid will be able to turn them around.
   1064. hokieneer Posted: January 03, 2013 at 04:15 PM (#4338167)
It's a weak class for NFL draft QBs


The Chiefs haven't won a playoff game in 20 years, haven't drafted a QB in the 1st round in 30 years, and have never "earned" the #1 pick in the common draft era before. Of course this would be the year when they get to choose between Barkley, Smith, Murray, & Wilson. ####.
   1065. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: January 03, 2013 at 04:18 PM (#4338172)
For some reason I expect Murray to stay for his senior year. Not sure why I think that.

@1062, I was thinking in particular of a tweet from Tony Dungy suggesting Murray would be a first round selection.
   1066. hokieneer Posted: January 03, 2013 at 04:19 PM (#4338176)
worst head coach? the chiefs were projected to be bad, and they were bad. the eagles, on the other hand, were projected to be a title contender, and they ended the season with a bottom 5 record.


In case you missed it, Romeo Crennel coached the chiefs in 2012. There is no way that anyone can paint a picture that Reid is a worse coach than Romeo.
   1067. Tripon Posted: January 03, 2013 at 04:27 PM (#4338191)
Rex Ryan, despite the Jets winning 6 games was stunningly bad in 2012. Took a bad situation with the QB mess that he had and made it much worse than it had to be. Just no concept on how to manage a situation like that.
   1068. Every Inge Counts Posted: January 03, 2013 at 04:39 PM (#4338210)
Of course this would be the year when they get to choose between Barkley, Smith, Murray, & Wilson. ####.


Don't forget Mike Glennon.
   1069. DA Baracus Posted: January 03, 2013 at 04:40 PM (#4338212)
Barkley is still going top 5. He's basically the rich man version of Marc Sanchez


That's still a bad QB.

It's a weak class for NFL draft QBs unless Aaron Murray decides to turn pro early.


It'll still be a weak class.

There isn't a QB this year I would take in the first round.
   1070. DA Baracus Posted: January 03, 2013 at 04:43 PM (#4338215)
worst head coach? the chiefs were projected to be bad, and they were bad. the eagles, on the other hand, were projected to be a title contender, and they ended the season with a bottom 5 record.


The Eagles were not a title contender at the beginning of the year. The people who thought that were naive.
   1071. Tripon Posted: January 03, 2013 at 06:44 PM (#4338369)
Barkley is still going top 5. He's basically the rich man version of Marc Sanchez


That's still a bad QB.


Nah, the problem with Sanchez isn't his tools. I mean, sure he doesn't have great tools, but its good enough to be a starter in the league. Its the fact that he's a lazy ####### that's going to kick him out of the league. Barkley is going to work his ass off and going to want to get better.
   1072. DA Baracus Posted: January 03, 2013 at 07:01 PM (#4338384)
Nah, the problem with Sanchez isn't his tools. I mean, sure he doesn't have great tools, but its good enough to be a starter in the league. Its the fact that he's a lazy ####### that's going to kick him out of the league. Barkley is going to work his ass off and going to want to get better.


Lots of guys work their ass off but stink. None of these QBs are worth a first rounder, let alone a top 5. It's a bad year to need a QB. We got spoiled last year with a HOF on the FA market and two can't miss prospects in the draft.
   1073. Tripon Posted: January 03, 2013 at 07:07 PM (#4338387)

Lots of guys work their ass off but stink. None of these QBs are worth a first rounder, let alone a top 5. It's a bad year to need a QB. We got spoiled last year with a HOF on the FA market and two can't miss prospects in the draft.


Except QBs in the draft are always 'over draft'. Guys who are legitimately 2nd or 3rd round picks based on talent get into the first round because of hype and 'need'. Tim Tebow's a good example, hell Marc Sanchez would be one too. QBs at the top of the market are going to go fast, that's just how it is.
   1074. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: January 03, 2013 at 07:15 PM (#4338392)
The Niners are obviously going to try to trade Alex Smith. He's signed to a very reasonable deal for a guy who is a capable starter. What would a team that needs a quarterback give up for a guy who isn't an elite quarterback but someone who could provide stability at that position?
   1075. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: January 03, 2013 at 07:20 PM (#4338395)
If KC is smart, they'll draft best available and go after Smith. He was perfectly fine, his value is probably down, and by far KC's biggest problem is QB.
   1076. baudib Posted: January 03, 2013 at 07:33 PM (#4338402)
If starting from ground zero and your goal is to build an organization capable of being competitive, you could do worse than Reid. Personally, I despised Reid as a coach. The overwhelming feeling you got from the Eagles during his tenure was a sense of smugness, that they knew what they were doing and you didn't. Well, they knew a lot more than most people, but it's the kind of attitude/stance that works only when you're winning, and by winning, I mean more than losing in the NFC Championship Game.

If you want to do things like, say, piss off your star middle linebacker, that's fine, but you should have a plan B. The Steelers constantly lost star players to free agency, but always had a replacement in the system. If you want to piss off the fan base by not bringing back the most beloved player in team history, that's also fine, but then they passed up on the obvious draft pick to replace him, and lord, it felt like they did it just for the sake of being contrary.

   1077. Tripon Posted: January 03, 2013 at 07:33 PM (#4338403)

The Niners are obviously going to try to trade Alex Smith. He's signed to a very reasonable deal for a guy who is a capable starter. What would a team that needs a quarterback give up for a guy who isn't an elite quarterback but someone who could provide stability at that position?


In 2009:


The Pats are obviously going to try to trade Matt Cassell. He's signed to a very reasonable deal for a guy who is a capable starter. What would a team that needs a quarterback give up for a guy who isn't an elite quarterback but someone who could provide stability at that position?


Sometimes teams want to develop their own starters. Especially the Chiefs who haven't done it in two decades. This is a team that needs to develop its own QB.
   1078. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 03, 2013 at 07:41 PM (#4338408)
i watched mike holmgren and his staff turn mark brunell, matt hasselback and aaron brooks into starting qbs for other teams.

i am fairly convinced that good coaching can turn a guy with a decent arm and an iq higher than a squash into a starting qb
   1079. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: January 03, 2013 at 07:46 PM (#4338415)
i watched mike holmgren and his staff turn mark brunell, matt hasselback and aaron brooks into starting qbs for other teams.

i am fairly convinced that good coaching can turn a guy with a decent arm and an iq higher than a squash into a starting qb
but if that's the case, why would you waste a high draft pick on someone who's not elite in the first place?

if you're signing aaron brooks as an undrafted free agent, that's one thing. but if you're drafting him 12th overall, that's completely different.
   1080. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 03, 2013 at 08:10 PM (#4338427)
steagles

i don't understand your post

sorry. i don't know if you are saying to not draft a qb in the first round or if you are saying somehting else
   1081. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 03, 2013 at 08:14 PM (#4338429)
qbs drafted by the green bay packers under ron wolf

ty detmer
mark brunell
jay barker
kyle waccholtz
ron mcada
matt hasselbeck
aaron brooks

   1082. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 03, 2013 at 08:48 PM (#4338445)
holmgren did not work with brooks or hasselbeck

   1083. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 03, 2013 at 08:49 PM (#4338446)
in green bay
   1084. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: January 03, 2013 at 08:57 PM (#4338452)
So as a Chiefs fan, should I be excited about the possibility of Andy Reid? I know he doesn't quite understand the need to run the ball, and is incapable of TO/clock management

Reid's period of great success coincided with inheriting top notch defensive players and picking a top notch defensive coach. Once those players (Dawkins, Trotter, Vincent, Taylor, Douglas) phased out(and the Eagles got rid of Trotter and Dawkins too early), it's been downhill since.

Reid always had a bit of mad scientist about him -- going from the "Who needs talent at WR in a West Coast offense" to "Linebackers? We don't need to have any good linebackers." to the crazed last three years of Michael Vick, the three headed alpha DB scenario of 2011, Juan Castillo, wide 9, resurrecting Howard Mudd (which kind of worked in 2011), drafting an overage fireman for the 1st pick.

If you hire Coach Reid and keep him out of personnel decisions (good luck with that, Reid has a huge ego), it still might work. I'm not convinced that he wasn't more lucky than good during the first half of his tenure with the Eagles.
   1085. zenbitz Posted: January 03, 2013 at 09:22 PM (#4338468)
The Niners are obviously going to try to trade Alex Smith. He's signed to a very reasonable deal for a guy who is a capable starter. What would a team that needs a quarterback give up for a guy who isn't an elite quarterback but someone who could provide stability at that position?


They are going to TRY but I think he has essentially zero trade value. Basically he's signed for 2013 for $8M which is eminently reasonable for a cromulent NFL starter, but WAY too much for a backup in the cap era. And they have are on the hook for his cap hit by March 1st. I think that deadline even includes a $1M bonus.

So the Niners have no leverage. Maybe they get a 6th or 7th round pick.
   1086. DA Baracus Posted: January 03, 2013 at 09:34 PM (#4338481)
Except QBs in the draft are always 'over draft'. Guys who are legitimately 2nd or 3rd round picks based on talent get into the first round because of hype and 'need'. Tim Tebow's a good example, hell Marc Sanchez would be one too. QBs at the top of the market are going to go fast, that's just how it is.


Of course. I never said otherwise. I am saying I wouldn't draft any of these QBs in the 1st. Other teams can have at them.
   1087. DA Baracus Posted: January 03, 2013 at 09:40 PM (#4338484)
qbs drafted by the green bay packers under ron wolf


Wolf's philosophy was draft a QB every year, you will eventually hit on one or two and get value out of them as a solid backup and/or trade bait. And he did.
   1088. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 03, 2013 at 09:47 PM (#4338490)
da

correct.
   1089. Kurt Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:32 PM (#4338569)
They are going to TRY but I think he has essentially zero trade value. Basically he's signed for 2013 for $8M which is eminently reasonable for a cromulent NFL starter, but WAY too much for a backup in the cap era. And they have are on the hook for his cap hit by March 1st. I think that deadline even includes a $1M bonus.

So the Niners have no leverage. Maybe they get a 6th or 7th round pick.


But he would start for 5-10 teams. As mentioned above, if KC could get him for a 6th rounder they should jump on that yesterday.
   1090. DA Baracus Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:38 PM (#4338577)
Bill O'Brien is staying at Penn State, as an Eagles fan this makes me happy.
   1091. Bourbon Samurai in Asia Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:40 PM (#4338580)
Wolf's philosophy was draft a QB every year, you will eventually hit on one or two and get value out of them as a solid backup and/or trade bait. And he did.


Which is why it baffled me when people flipped out about Shanahan drafting Cousins in the 4th. Clearly was a good idea.

Especially when the example they cited was the Redskins taking Shuler and Frerotte in the same draft, when they were damn glad they took Frerotte, at least until he concussed himself on the wall.
   1092. baudib Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:42 PM (#4338582)
I can't endorse Edmundo's post in #1084 enough. You can add to the list, "Defensive coordinator genius? Who needs that? I'll just make my offensive line coach the defensive coordinator, and show everyone."

Reid had 5 absolute pillars together for 10 years: Jim Johnson, Brian Dawkins, Donovan McNabb, Tra Thomas and Jon Runyan. He hired Johnson, who I don't believe was a hot commodity at the time. He drafted McNabb, and was on board when they signed Runyan. Those are to his credit. He inherited Dawkins and Thomas, as well as other notable defensive players, as Edmundo mentioned. His drafts have been a mixture of good and bad. His free agent acquisitions have mostly gone south in the past several years. He built a core of very good coaches at the start.

It's just incredible to have that sort of stability at so many key positions. Reid has been utterly unable to replace most of those key people.
Reid has managed to run mostly good offenses, and he manages quite often to get by for a few games at a time with QBs of questionable talent, and he manages to swap them into second-round picks. That's a good thing, and can help an organization as bad as the Chiefs.
   1093. DA Baracus Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:49 PM (#4338591)
Which is why it baffled me when people flipped out about Shanahan drafting Cousins in the 4th. Clearly was a good idea.


Those people were dumb. You need a backup in today's dangerous NFL. And on the third day, take the best player on your board, regardless of position.

I also agree with 1084 and 1092.
   1094. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: January 04, 2013 at 01:55 PM (#4339020)
The Reid hiring by KC is evidently official. My favorite comment from the FO thread:

I . . . I felt a great disturbance in the Force, as if millions of Jamaal Charles keeper league fantasy owners suddenly cried out in terror and were suddenly silenced. I fear something terrible has happened.
   1095. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 04, 2013 at 02:00 PM (#4339025)
chris

that post is very funny
   1096. hokieneer Posted: January 04, 2013 at 02:12 PM (#4339033)
I just don't get the "oh no poor Charles" from Fantasy league owners. The last 2 seasons Jamaal was healthy he had 230, 285 carries respectively. The last 3-4 years in Philly for Westbrook he averaged 250 carries and this is with him missing a game or so. Mccoy had 270 carries in 2011. All three of them are capable of catching 40-50+ balls a year out of the backfield. Westbrook was a late 1st early 2nd fantasy pick for years and McCoy was that this year and that's likely where a healthy Charles will go.

Sounds like Charles is the typical Reid back in terms of usage and expected fantasy points.
   1097. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 04, 2013 at 02:16 PM (#4339038)
hoke

it's a joke big fella. enjoy the joke
   1098. hokieneer Posted: January 04, 2013 at 02:21 PM (#4339044)
it's a joke big fella. enjoy the joke


That's about the 4,000th "Poor Jamaal" statement/joke I've seen in the last 24 hours, since the Reid-to-KC news started breaking.
   1099. hokieneer Posted: January 04, 2013 at 02:23 PM (#4339048)
On a more serious note, so glad Pioli is gone, but not excited about Reid being the "GM". As been previously discussed, Reid's player personal decisions (outside of trading backup QBs) have been awful.
   1100. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 04, 2013 at 02:32 PM (#4339056)
I can't say Reid is a bad coach, but he's not really an inspired choice. I'd rather try to find the next Harbaugh. (Hell, there might even be an actual next Harbaugh.)

Reid is better than the likes of Jeff Fisher, though.
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