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Tuesday, November 06, 2012

OT: NFL/NHL thread

i estimate that absolutely noone gives a damn about the NHL, so by folding that thread into this one, we won’t distract from what this thread is really about: boner pills, blood doping (is it low t?), and…jesus christ did mike vick just throw another ####### interception?

STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:03 AM | 7937 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nfl, nhl

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   1601. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 13, 2013 at 06:35 PM (#4346371)
I'm pretty sure Mike Smith is thinking "we won."
   1602. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: January 13, 2013 at 06:40 PM (#4346372)
The Pat defense has been really good today.
   1603. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: January 13, 2013 at 06:40 PM (#4346373)
The Falcons didn't have a timeout left. How were they going to "abort" the play? I think the idea that they were thinking about running another play but changed their minds as someone suggested.


There was plenty of time for the holder to throw the ball away.
   1604. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: January 13, 2013 at 06:46 PM (#4346376)
Yeah, there's no chance that Houston is winning this game.
   1605. JJ1986 Posted: January 13, 2013 at 06:46 PM (#4346377)
Offensive pass interference?
   1606. The Ghost fouled out, but stays in the game Posted: January 13, 2013 at 06:47 PM (#4346378)
They were both involved in getting tangled up. Welker caught it with one hand.
   1607. MHS Posted: January 13, 2013 at 06:49 PM (#4346379)
I'm pretty sure Mike Smith is thinking "we won."


I'm not sure I would feel good about that being my head coaches reaction.
   1608. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: January 13, 2013 at 06:50 PM (#4346380)
I'm not sure I would feel good about that being my head coaches reaction.


Do you think when Smith and Carroll met at midfield Carroll said "you're lucky I never kicked a FG."
   1609. Howie Menckel Posted: January 13, 2013 at 06:52 PM (#4346384)
"There was plenty of time for the holder to throw the ball away."

Yes, I can't imagine a team that has lost 3 consecutive postseason games - and whose collective sphincters could have spewed out enough diamonds to feed a first-world country, and who were on the verge of the second-biggest collapse in the history of the NFL - handling a botched snap on a potential field goal with anything but aplomb.

Why would they have any reason to panic in that scenario? Just calmly grab the odd-shaped object, get up, scramble away from the behemoths chasing you, and toss it out of bounds. Easy peasy. And certainly much easier than throwing a short sideline route to get into a better range for your up-and-down kicker.



   1610. MHS Posted: January 13, 2013 at 06:53 PM (#4346385)
Do you think when Smith and Carroll met at midfield Carroll said "you're lucky I never kicked a FG."


I know I wouldn't feel good if Pete Carroll was my teams head coach.
   1611. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: January 13, 2013 at 06:55 PM (#4346388)
Very surprised NE isn't using their timeouts here.
   1612. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: January 13, 2013 at 06:58 PM (#4346390)
Yes, I can't imagine a team that has lost 3 consecutive postseason games - and whose collective sphincters could have spewed out enough diamonds to feed a first-world country, and who were on the verge of the second-biggest collapse in the history of the NFL - handling a botched snap on a potential field goal with anything but aplomb.

Why would they have any reason to panic in that scenario? Just calmly grab the odd-shaped object, get up, scramble away from the behemoths chasing you, and toss it out of bounds. Easy peasy. And certainly much easier than throwing a short sideline route to get into a better range for your up-and-down kicker.


I'm not arguing that they should have factored that in. I like I said, I too wondered "why the hell are you leaving time on the clock?" I'm saying that maybe that's why. Or as I also said, maybe it's because as someone said, coaches get dumb in the final minutes of the game.
   1613. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: January 13, 2013 at 07:02 PM (#4346397)
I don't like what Belicheck is doing here.
   1614. MHS Posted: January 13, 2013 at 07:03 PM (#4346398)
1611. Alan S Posted: January 13, 2013 at 06:55 PM (#4346388)


You don't use them before the two minute warning, then after their was not great option.

They played it right... At least in re: to time outs.
   1615. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: January 13, 2013 at 07:07 PM (#4346402)
You don't use them before the two minute warning, then after their was not great option.


I wasn't speaking about just after the two minute warning, but once it's clear Houston was going to have excess time, the Pats should have been calling time outs to make sure they have as much time as possible for their own drive. Before the two minute warning would be slightly better, but I don't know why they shouldn't call them afterwards. What am I missing?
   1616. MHS Posted: January 13, 2013 at 07:16 PM (#4346409)
That seemed like a poorly officiated last minute. The clock was at 0:00 at the whistle and that was a running into the kicker penalty, the pats should have gotten to repunt.

I don't mind missed calls, or bad calls. But when you make the right call and then go back on it, something is wrong.
   1617. MHS Posted: January 13, 2013 at 07:19 PM (#4346412)
I wasn't speaking about just after the two minute warning, but once it's clear Houston was going to have excess time, the Pats should have been calling time outs to make sure they have as much time as possible for their own drive. Before the two minute warning would be slightly better, but I don't know why they shouldn't call them afterwards. What am I missing?
]

Well:

1) the pats don't need more than 80 seconds with 2 time outs
2) Houston can stop them and giving the ball back is bad..,, which is what happened.
   1618. stanmvp48 Posted: January 13, 2013 at 07:24 PM (#4346414)
Did anyone point out that Atlant could have gone for two from the 1/2 yard line after the fourth TD and would have had 28?
   1619. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: January 13, 2013 at 07:27 PM (#4346417)
1) the pats don't need more than 80 seconds with 2 time outs


Just because they're capable of scoring with 75 seconds and 2 time outs doesn't mean they wouldn't be more likely to score with 115 seconds and 1 time out. They should be doing what they can to maximize their point expectancy.

2) Houston can stop them and giving the ball back is bad..,, which is what happened.


Yes, that's the risk, but I don't think Belichick should be giving up equity to protect their lead going into the half when their lead is only 7. It's the kind of decision that gets every other coach in the league rightfully mocked.
   1620. MHS Posted: January 13, 2013 at 07:31 PM (#4346419)
The lead was 14 at that point.
   1621. JJ1986 Posted: January 13, 2013 at 07:48 PM (#4346421)
Schaub looks awful.
   1622. Gamingboy Posted: January 13, 2013 at 07:48 PM (#4346422)
Schaub fail.
   1623. The Ghost fouled out, but stays in the game Posted: January 13, 2013 at 07:53 PM (#4346424)
Patriots roll.
   1624. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: January 13, 2013 at 07:58 PM (#4346426)
The lead was 14 at that point.


Well, the lead was more like 9-10 when you account for Houston being a near lock to score. And whether it's 7, 14, or something in between doesn't really matter. You don't trade value for reduced risk that early in the game unless the game is already a blowout.
   1625. JJ1986 Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:08 PM (#4346429)
How do you not challenge that?
   1626. stanmvp48 Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:10 PM (#4346430)
I didn't know you couldn't fumble forward until the last two minutes.
   1627. KronicFatigue Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:11 PM (#4346431)
agree with 1625. I'm stunned by how poor the coaching has been these playoffs.
   1628. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:15 PM (#4346432)
Sure looks like a catch to me.
   1629. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:16 PM (#4346433)
That looks like a TD Houston to me.
   1630. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:28 PM (#4346437)
Why was Schaub throwing deep on 4th-and-1?
   1631. MHS Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:32 PM (#4346438)
Houston has been the benificiary of some remarkably fortunate calls.

If the pats hold on this game, they will lose next. The NFL has spoken.
   1632. Mess with the Meat, you get the Wad! Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:34 PM (#4346439)
Are you watching the same game that everyone else is? Houston is not the only team getting calls, both sides have had some gifts
   1633. jmurph Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:34 PM (#4346440)
Houston has been the benificiary of some remarkably fortunate calls.


Haven't really noticed any. The Pats have left points on the board and went into prevent mode way too early.
   1634. jmurph Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:37 PM (#4346443)
Going for it here is the absolute wrong thing to do. Kubiak is an idiot.

(Play just finished). Doesn't matter. Very little benefit, huge risk.

EDIT: I'm talking about the 2-point conversion.
   1635. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:37 PM (#4346444)
Nice drive by Houston, but using up 5 minutes (half the time left) to go 40 yards when they need three scores? Again speaks to coaching.
   1636. stanmvp48 Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:37 PM (#4346445)
I am glad they made the two to shut up Sims.
   1637. MHS Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:37 PM (#4346446)
You're clearly not watching very closely. You must be drunk.
   1638. MHS Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:39 PM (#4346448)
Why do the pats not have a hands team on the field? Terrible.
   1639. President of the David Eckstein Fan Club Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:40 PM (#4346449)
Patriots *really* dodged a bullet on that onside kick.
   1640. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:42 PM (#4346451)
It's hilarious that the whinge about umpiring came right before that weak holding call gives NE a new set of downs.
   1641. MHS Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:42 PM (#4346452)
The NFL has spoken.


I take it back. Damn homer.
   1642. jmurph Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:43 PM (#4346453)
It's hilarious that the whinge about umpiring came right before that weak holding call gives NE a new set of downs.


Fortuitous, certainly, but looked like a clear hold on the replay. Of course I'm also not whining about the calls.
   1643. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:45 PM (#4346454)
Considering how tight play has been throughout the playoffs, that looked a little ticky tacky to me.
   1644. MHS Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:48 PM (#4346455)
It's hilarious that the whinge about umpiring came right before that weak holding call gives NE a new set of downs.


Not as hilarious as Atlanta chances of lifting the Lombardi trophy. Wait do you rednecks know who Vince Lombardi was?
   1645. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:48 PM (#4346456)
New England has to be the overwhelming Super Bowl favorite right now.
   1646. MHS Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:50 PM (#4346459)
Just to be clear. Houston has been the benificiary of many calls today. I was wrong to indicate that it was the NFL's directive, rather just incompetence. Basic error on my part.
   1647. stanmvp48 Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:50 PM (#4346461)
I would not kick this.
   1648. stanmvp48 Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:51 PM (#4346463)
What do you guys think the spreads will be?
   1649. MHS Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:52 PM (#4346464)
New England has to be the overwhelming Super Bowl favorite right now.


True odds of less than 3 to 1.

Vegas will have them closer to even money which is absurd.
   1650. jmurph Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:53 PM (#4346466)
New England has to be the overwhelming Super Bowl favorite right now.


They will be, they're always the betting favorite in the playoffs. But I don't know that they're overwhelmingly better than Baltimore, and I don't really think they're better than SF. Atlanta is an enigma to me, I have no idea what they're capable of.
   1651. MHS Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:53 PM (#4346467)
SF -3
NE -6.5

Assuming score holds.
   1652. stanmvp48 Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:54 PM (#4346468)
SF favored on the road?
   1653. MHS Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:56 PM (#4346470)
Yes, SF was daily the most impressive winner.
   1654. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:56 PM (#4346471)
Not as hilarious as Atlanta chances of lifting the Lombardi trophy. Wait do you rednecks know who Vince Lombardi was?


Sorry, I got distracted when I was banging your mom.
   1655. MHS Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:58 PM (#4346472)
Maybe you missed. 1983's message... Find new material.
   1656. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: January 13, 2013 at 08:59 PM (#4346474)
Yeah, no chance of that even after the offensive explosion against GB. Falcons by 1.5. Pats could be favored by a lot... I'll peg it at 9.5.
   1657. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 13, 2013 at 09:00 PM (#4346475)
Find new material


Says some witless pudfucker cracking "redneck" jokes about Atlanta? Please.
   1658. Howie Menckel Posted: January 13, 2013 at 09:04 PM (#4346478)

seeing 49ers -3 and Patriots -8 to start in Vegas...

   1659. stanmvp48 Posted: January 13, 2013 at 09:07 PM (#4346479)
Vegas insider has 3.5 and 9.5.
   1660. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: January 13, 2013 at 09:08 PM (#4346481)
New England has to be the overwhelming Super Bowl favorite right now.


Not with Gronk out. I'll still take them over Baltimore and Atlanta, but not having him could be a difference against the 49ers.
   1661. Howie Menckel Posted: January 13, 2013 at 10:09 PM (#4346494)

RJ Bell ?@RJinVegas

$100 wins $100 if you bet #Patriots to win Super Bowl. #49ers 9/4; #Falcons 5/1; #Ravens 8/1 [via @LVSuperbook]

   1662. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: January 13, 2013 at 10:35 PM (#4346505)
Nice finish your boys pulled off, Sam. Gotta give them (and Carroll) credit after I thought they'd pulled a classic choke.
   1663. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 13, 2013 at 10:49 PM (#4346512)
hope everyone enjoyed their football weekend

i was at the green bay/san fran game.

i don't think erik walden is going to be on the green bay roster for much longer. i am pretty sure ted thompson (an old linebacker) had a blood pressure of about 220/140 when walden crashed inside leaving the end wide open for the sf qb to run 50 odd yards for a td. at which point walden was benched

but walden had lots of help in crudness last night. tramon williams was dreadful. just more interested in flapping his gums than playing. hawk needed to come strong against a running team because run defense is his one believed strength and the san fran guards manhandled him way too often. woodson was caught trying to make plays versus keeping his assignment.

i thought the packers offensive line held up in protection most of the night and i thought beforehand if that happened the packers had a great chance to win. but the offense was just ok when with the defense going kaplewy and the special teams being awful the offense had to be pretty much perfect. stunned that mccarthy punted on that 4th quarter 4th down. thinking his exhausted defense would hold was folly.

anyway, i don't think the san fran qb is some guy who is going to take the league by storm. i think last night was the perfect storm of a defense not properly prepped, players unable to keep to their assignments and san fran blocking really, really well. the san fran kid looks to have a chance to be a real qb but i have seen this script before and eventually teams force guys like this to make decisions and make real plays versus romping through big holes created by blown assignments.

good luck to him and san fran
   1664. cmd600 Posted: January 13, 2013 at 11:16 PM (#4346523)
anyway, i don't think the san fran qb is some guy who is going to take the league by storm.


He had a passer rating of 98 this year, just as good as Brady or Ryan, and his QBR puts him just between those two as well, and football outsiders has SF as one of the best pass offenses in the league. Sure, taking the QB by storm is a vague, and high standard, so he may not reach it, but the kid would still be damn good if his legs only helped make him elusive from d-lineman, and not able to outrun defensive backs.
   1665. Howie Menckel Posted: January 13, 2013 at 11:24 PM (#4346525)

Did they ever mention on TV today that Brian Billick was broadcasting a game featuring his brother-in-law, Mike Smith (yes, the Falcons head coach)? That's a little weird.

Maybe that's why Billick had so many errors....

   1666. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 13, 2013 at 11:27 PM (#4346526)
cmd

let's see how next year plays out

again, good luck to sf
   1667. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: January 13, 2013 at 11:35 PM (#4346528)
the san fran kid looks to have a chance to be a real qb but i have seen this script before and eventually teams force guys like this to make decisions and make real plays versus romping through big holes created by blown assignments.

It doesn't take long for a Redskins fan to envision a much worse ending for Mr. Kaepernick. I'm crossing my fingers for him and Wilson as well.
   1668. cmd600 Posted: January 14, 2013 at 12:26 AM (#4346544)
1666 - well I guess that settles it. We'll have to wait until next year. Completely forget that hes a pretty good bet to win the Super Bowl this year
   1669. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 14, 2013 at 12:37 AM (#4346546)
cmd

i am speaking long term

if you want to pick a fight look elsewherr
   1670. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: January 14, 2013 at 12:44 AM (#4346548)
i have seen this script before and eventually teams force guys like this to make decisions and make real plays versus romping through big holes created by blown assignments.
i think a lot of the problems that running QBs have are self-inflicted. just watching vick and mcnabb over the last decade, they were undoubtedly at their most dangerous when they were willing to get out of the pocket and scramble downfield, but the end of their peaks also coincided with each of them making a conscious decision on focusing more on playing inside the pocket.


that doesn't necessarily mean clawing for every last yard, but just taking a first down with your legs when the defense gives it to you.


when you have an athelete like mcnabb or vick or kaepernick (or wilson or RGIII or newton), defenses can't play man-to-man in pass coverage because if the secondary gets turned around, that's an 80 yard scramble for a TD waiting to happen.


i also think a lot of the success of these mobile rookie QBs goes to the increased presence of the spread offense. it's simple math. if you have 2 deep safeties, plus 4 defenders spread out wide to cover opposing receivers, that leaves 5 OL v. 5 DL/LBs. if you add a mobile QB to that, it becomes 6 v. 5 because you have the RB as an extra blocker.

that i was gung-ho for chip kelley. he understands that the strength of the spread offense isn't in the passing game, but in the running game. when you clear defenders out of the box like he does, and when your offensive line can consistently win at the point of attack, you can absolutely gash defenses. and then when you add the hurry-up elements, it's a thing of absolute beauty.


   1671. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: January 14, 2013 at 02:24 AM (#4346568)
As a Niners fan, I couldn't agree more with Harvey's's take on Kaepernick.
   1672. Jay Z Posted: January 14, 2013 at 02:41 AM (#4346570)
i don't think erik walden is going to be on the green bay roster for much longer. i am pretty sure ted thompson (an old linebacker) had a blood pressure of about 220/140 when walden crashed inside leaving the end wide open for the sf qb to run 50 odd yards for a td. at which point walden was benched

but walden had lots of help in crudness last night. tramon williams was dreadful. just more interested in flapping his gums than playing. hawk needed to come strong against a running team because run defense is his one believed strength and the san fran guards manhandled him way too often. woodson was caught trying to make plays versus keeping his assignment.


If they can keep next year's #1 off the IR, maybe they can get rid of Walden. If Bishop is healthy next year, maybe they can get rid or Hawk or Danny Jones. Only so many options off the street.

Maybe they were playing so much man because they were blowing assignments on some of the zone coverages late in the season. There is some youth in the secondary. You're right, Williams was not good.

Game plan was inadequate, though. Or looked inadequate. Get beat by being mashed or not being able to cover, not by some QB running untouched for almost 200 yards.
   1673. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 14, 2013 at 08:25 AM (#4346609)
I think the difference between Kaepernick and a traditional running QB is that he's really a pocket passer that happens to be able to run. He's got a rocket for an arm and he throws with real accuracy. Obviously he ran so much against GB because they were completely baffled by how to stop it so, until they adjust, you keep running. As for the decision making...SF keeps things very simple for their QB's which is why you saw such a dramatic improvement for Alex Smith and I'm sure Kaepernick will be fine. He's obviously not as good as he was Saturday, but I think he has a chance to be a right-handed Steve Young. I actually thing he's stronger and more built to be a pocket passer than Young though Young was a bit more mobile.
   1674. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: January 14, 2013 at 08:49 AM (#4346611)
Opening lines: Niners -3, Pats -9.5, in spite of the fact that the Ravens have always played them close and in spite of the fact that the Ravens are now at full strength. Brady's capable of putting up 50 against anyone, but it's still hard not to see that as an overlay that's based too much on what might have happened between those two teams if they'd played a month ago.
   1675. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 14, 2013 at 09:16 AM (#4346613)
I think the difference between Kaepernick and a traditional running QB is that he's really a pocket passer that happens to be able to run. He's got a rocket for an arm and he throws with real accuracy. Obviously he ran so much against GB because they were completely baffled by how to stop it so, until they adjust, you keep running.


I think Wilson's better than Kaepernick, but it seems vaguely unfair that the year the Falcons rebuild their defensive schemes to beat Drew Brees and Aaron Rodgers they have to make a run through a couple of Cam Newton clones instead. Running QB's is the bane of this defense.
   1676. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 14, 2013 at 09:32 AM (#4346615)
the writer for the journal sentinel does a game review every week and he agreed with my assessment of tramon williams calling him flat out soft.

williams is a strange guy. he has games where he locks down the very best receivers, like calvin johnson, and you think the guy is a pro bowl type player. then he goes against a go who is ok but not super duper like crabtree and he just seems to go through the motions.

just a strange player
   1677. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 14, 2013 at 09:36 AM (#4346619)
i was wrong about hawk though. the writer pointed out that it was jones and not hawk who along with walden stunk it up. i will cut myself a bit of slack as i likely confused the 9 of jones number 59 with hawks number 50. i was following through binoculars on a lot of the plays. yes, my eyes kind of stink.

the guy who impressed the h8ll out of me was don barclay. that kid held up against a tremendous defender in aldon smith all night and the packers didn't give him much help. green bay may have stumbled on a tackle. i wonder if they think about moving bulaga to left tackle to challenge newhouse who is very mediocre?
   1678. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: January 14, 2013 at 09:58 AM (#4346629)
As a Niners fan, I couldn't agree more with Harvey's's take on Kaepernick.

I have to disagree. Kap is a great runner but he has shown the ability to be a very good passer as well. He completed a good percentage of passes while throwing the ball downfield. He's not someone who looks to run the ball first.

   1679. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 14, 2013 at 10:04 AM (#4346633)
all

on a stats centric site are folks telling me i am being stupid and/or stubborn for not declaring a guy will be really good for the remainder of his career based on a limited data sample?

i clearly recognize that in a partial season the young man has done well. but my gosh all fans have seen this script before. everyone here can relay a story of a player who seems to ahve the world by the tail for some amount of time and then bam, it changes. sometimes the player adjusts and gets back to being tremendous. sometimes they fade away

i have to confess i am surprised

   1680. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 14, 2013 at 10:09 AM (#4346636)
i have to confess i am surprised


Kapaernick is the new hip thing right now. Last week it was Russell Wilson (who is a better QB to my eyes than Kapaernick.) Basically this is run-over from the game he had against Green Bay.
   1681. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: January 14, 2013 at 10:14 AM (#4346637)
Saying you need a bigger sample is different than saying: eventually teams force guys like this to make decisions and make real plays versus romping through big holes created by blown assignments.

He has already made decisions and real plays. Everyone is talking about the rushing yards but he threw for 263 yards against the Packers on 31 attempts. He threw the ball downfield and threw passes with touch. He's got an excellent arm with a good throwing motion.

Saying you need a bigger sample is different than saying he has not made "real plays or decisions".

   1682. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 14, 2013 at 10:16 AM (#4346638)
on a stats centric site are folks telling me i am being stupid and/or stubborn for not declaring a guy will be really good for the remainder of his career based on a limited data sample?

I would never call you stupid Harvs! Honestly, I don't know enough about football statistickery to make a case for Kaepernick that way. Football is a sport where I just trust my eyes. He's a great athlete with a great arm, throws with some accuracy and can move in the pocket and hoof it when he needs to. The tools are all there--it just remains to be seen if he'll be able to adjust when defenses adjust. I'm not putting him in the HOF yet but I can see why they rolled the dice with him. I think the most promising thing for him is that he doesn't NEED to run and that he'll settle into being a traditional pocket passer with plus mobility.
   1683. Howie Menckel Posted: January 14, 2013 at 10:30 AM (#4346643)
"I think the difference between Kaepernick and a traditional running QB is that he's really a pocket passer that happens to be able to run. He's got a rocket for an arm and he throws with real accuracy."

You misspelled RG III, lol. Though he's an even better runner and got too caught up in that at times (though 6.5 per carry for 800 yards isn't shabby, obviously he was reckless too often). the rest applies, though - pocket passer, rocket, accuracy. If RG III ran less, I don't see how Kaepernick would grade out higher. He's more mistake-prone with his throws, for instance.

Kaepernick is 25, Griffin is not yet 23, fwiw

   1684. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 14, 2013 at 10:36 AM (#4346646)
He's a great athlete with a great arm, throws with some accuracy and can move in the pocket and hoof it when he needs to. The tools are all there--it just remains to be seen if he'll be able to adjust when defenses adjust.


Russell Wilson : Steve Young :: Kaepernick/Griffin III : Randall Cunningham

EDIT/CAVEAT: Of those three, RGIII looks the smallest and flimsiest out there (even before the knee injury.) At least the other two have some sort of physical presence to them. (Yes, I know Wilson is short, but so was Young and Drew Brees.)
   1685. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 14, 2013 at 10:42 AM (#4346652)
My assessment of Kaepernick has nothing to do with Griffin. Griffin is obviously a great player and hopefully he can get healthy and stay healthy. I got nothing against the guy.
   1686. Howie Menckel Posted: January 14, 2013 at 10:44 AM (#4346655)
likewise!

wasn't sure if you thought of Griffin as a "running QB." yes and no - well, maybe both kinds is a better way to put it?

   1687. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 14, 2013 at 11:03 AM (#4346662)
russlan

geez.



   1688. DKDC Posted: January 14, 2013 at 11:05 AM (#4346663)
As one of the few defenders of the read option after last week’s slate of games, I’ll stick to my guns without going overboard: I think the read option is here to stay in the NFL. 5 years from now, the majority of the league will still run a traditional pocket-pass-heavy offense, but I bet 5-10 teams feature a read option scheme in a significant way.

I think a lot of people overestimate the skills it takes to for a QB to run the scheme. It’s important to build the right personnel around the QB, but the best part is that you can build that with flawed players who wouldn’t otherwise be in high demand.

Build a mobile offense line that excels at run-blocking, but only needs to pass block 40% of the time, and the QB gets to read the defense before deciding to pass, so he can steer away from heavy blitzes or mismatches. Build a receiving core that doesn’t need blazing speed, but excels at blocking and catching quick passes. Find a workhorse running back who might not break long runs, but can reliably get 3-5 yards between the tackles.

The QB is the hardest piece to find, but viable candidates are getting churned out of the college ranks as you see more athletic QBs throughout the NCAA. Above-average speed is important, but you don’t need 4.3 or even 4.5 speed. Griffin was running for 50+ yards/game on a bum leg, and yesterday Kaepernick was breaking 40 yard runs without being touched. Accuracy at the short-to-intermediate range is critical - a big arm and deep accuracy are a bonus, but not required. The most important skills are ball-handling, decision-making, and durability.

Yes, NFL defenses will find schemes to make the read option less effective, but it’s a technically sound philosophy that creates mismatches and allows the offense to dictate the action. It’s not a fad.
   1689. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: January 14, 2013 at 11:23 AM (#4346671)
Everyone seems to have forgotten Cam Newton.
   1690. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: January 14, 2013 at 11:33 AM (#4346674)

russlan

geez.


I don't think my comments were inflammatory or insulting.
   1691. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 14, 2013 at 11:36 AM (#4346677)
russlan

i am not a fan of word parsing, that's all.

i wasn't knocking the kid. just working to remain objective

that is all

   1692. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 14, 2013 at 11:38 AM (#4346678)
Going for it here is the absolute wrong thing to do. Kubiak is an idiot.

(Play just finished). Doesn't matter. Very little benefit, huge risk.

EDIT: I'm talking about the 2-point conversion.


You and Simms were both wrong. The right move was to go for it, as Kubiak did.
   1693. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 14, 2013 at 11:39 AM (#4346679)
New England has to be the overwhelming Super Bowl favorite right now.

Not with Gronk out. I'll still take them over Baltimore and Atlanta, but not having him could be a difference against the 49ers.


The loss of Gronk, or of any offensive player except the quarterback, is so trivial as to be irrelevant.

I mean, they just showed that by... losing Gronk... and yet rolling the Texans anyway.
   1694. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 14, 2013 at 11:44 AM (#4346680)
Seattle is getting praise for coming back, but they really blew the game with huge missteps at various points.

Also, I'm tired of the "Player/Team/Coach can't win in the playoffs" thing. This has been disproven time and again. There was no reason Atlanta couldn't win. People are really silly and moronic sometimes, and completely fail to understand what they have spent their lives watching.
   1695. bunyon Posted: January 14, 2013 at 11:48 AM (#4346682)
1694, Ray: as evidenced by criticism of Manning. I didn't watch the whole game so maybe he didn't play well. But if the secondary doesn't go tharn on the bomb, Manning is being praised for winning the game.
   1696. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 14, 2013 at 11:52 AM (#4346687)
1694, Ray: as evidenced by criticism of Manning. I didn't watch the whole game so maybe he didn't play well. But if the secondary doesn't go tharn on the bomb, Manning is being praised for winning the game.

And if the Falcons kicker misses, then Matt Ryan is still a choker. It's like football is a team game or something...
   1697. jmurph Posted: January 14, 2013 at 11:54 AM (#4346690)
You and Simms were both wrong. The right move was to go for it, as Kubiak did.


I've seen the argument but still think I'm right. If they failed on that conversion attempt, their options were limited to scoring 2 touchdowns. If they kick, they're behind by 11, and they have more options.

If on the next drive they're down 11 at the NE 30 and find themselves with a 4th and 10, they can kick the FG, and still be within range of 8 to tie. If they're instead down 12 (having failed to convert the 2-point try) and find themselves at the NE 30 with a 4th and 10, they have to go for it with an extremely minimal chance of converting. It risked limiting their options when they went for 2.
   1698. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 14, 2013 at 11:56 AM (#4346692)
Manning played well (if a bit conservative in that he was throwing short passes), and he did eff up at the end of the game. But he had his team in position to win in regulation, having played a good game. That doesn't scream "can't win" to me. Nor does his Super Bowl win. His main failing on Saturday was that he (1) was not the coach, and therefore couldn't decide to go for it at the end of regulation with time and 2 timeouts and needing just a FG, and (2) was unable to play safety, because the deep ball that burned the secondary was absurd.

On the other hand, I do understand that Manning said after the game that Fox did call a pass on that 3rd down play where they needed a first down to end the game, and Manning audibled it to a run. At least, that's what someone told me.

Manning did make mistakes like the secondary and Fox, but they should really not have lost the game.
   1699. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: January 14, 2013 at 12:04 PM (#4346699)

If on the next drive they're down 11 at the NE 30 and find themselves with a 4th and 10, they can kick the FG, and still be within range of 8 to tie.


So they will need to try a two-point conversion sooner or later. Wouldn't it make sense to try it sooner, so that they can plan for two more scores if they need it?
   1700. jmurph Posted: January 14, 2013 at 12:06 PM (#4346701)
So they will need to try a two-point conversion sooner or later. Wouldn't it make sense to try it sooner, so that they can plan for two more scores if they need it?


Again I get that argument. The 2-pointer is eventually necessary. But (and I'm genuinely asking, I'm not 100% certain here) isn't keeping the much easier to accomplish field goal on the table a huge point in your favor?
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