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Tuesday, November 06, 2012

OT: NFL/NHL thread

i estimate that absolutely noone gives a damn about the NHL, so by folding that thread into this one, we won’t distract from what this thread is really about: boner pills, blood doping (is it low t?), and…jesus christ did mike vick just throw another ####### interception?

steagles Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:03 AM | 8036 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nfl, nhl

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   2801. puck Posted: January 20, 2013 at 11:04 PM (#4351584)
So is Joe Flacco the Jack Morris of the NFL?

Yes.

If he wins another Super Bowl, he'll be elite like Eli!
   2802. Howie Menckel Posted: January 20, 2013 at 11:06 PM (#4351585)

I have nothing against Flacco at all, but I'm not going to cement my opinion of him mostly based on whether a Broncos defensive player soils himself on the key play at the end of last week's game.

I think Flacco is quite good, and still would even if he had lost last week.

   2803. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 20, 2013 at 11:09 PM (#4351586)
I'm shocked that the NFL has somehow managed to arrange their "Harbaugh on Harbaugh" SB narrative. It's almost like they planned it that way.
   2804. President of the David Eckstein Fan Club Posted: January 20, 2013 at 11:10 PM (#4351587)
I guess it helps that the Falcons could be relied upon to falter in the playoffs, so the evil NFL conspiracy didn't have as much work to do on the NFC side
   2805. DA Baracus Posted: January 20, 2013 at 11:11 PM (#4351588)
I'm shocked that the NFL has somehow managed to arrange their "Harbaugh on Harbaugh" SB narrative. It's almost like they planned it that way.


It helps when the other teams don't score in the 2nd half.

There could have been a "Harbaugh Bowl" last year. Why wasn't there?
   2806. NTNgod Posted: January 20, 2013 at 11:12 PM (#4351589)
The NFL pulled off the Harbaugh Conspiracy by having both home teams shutout in the second half. They really need to work on making their devious schemes less obvious.
   2807. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: January 20, 2013 at 11:12 PM (#4351590)
Hey, Andy? I think you're awesome and wise. But go #### yourself.
   2808. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 20, 2013 at 11:15 PM (#4351591)
17th in DVOA and DYAR, his lowest since his rookie year. Never top 10 in any of them. He's a good average QB.

I'm sure that's a great consolation for Patriots fans after he outplayed Superman for the 3rd straight game.
   2809. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: January 20, 2013 at 11:21 PM (#4351592)
I am a huge Patriots fan, love Belichick, love Brady, am very sad about the loss tonight...

...but the NFL today is pretty much this:

If you have a franchise quarterback who can throw with surgical precision, you're probably going to win a lot of games.

If you do not, the rules that protect the QB, disallow much contact with receivers, etc., make it tough to build a defense-first franchise.

I don't think Belichick is incapable of building an excellent defense. I think he is a pragmatist. You can build the best defense possible, you're still going to have trouble preventing most decent teams from scoring 20 a game.

Belichick also knows he has one of the five greatest QBs ever to play football, and he knows that a guy like Brady, in a league with rules like currently exist, rewards lots of players with good hands, quick feet, and the ability to think quick.

Welker. Hernandez. Gronk. Woodhead. Faulk, back in the day. Branch. Vereen is a really good fit for this offense. Edelman.

Belichick has identified the market inefficiency in the current NFL game, and is getting very good players for this offense without using high draft picks.

Mark Ingram was a 1st round pick, and a lot of Pats fans wanted them to take Ingram. They thought Ridley was just as good, perhaps better, for this offense - and they got him in the 3rd round. Hell, they got Vereen in the same round, too! Edelman was a 7th round pick. Woodhead, a FA pickup. Hernandez and Grok? 2nd round picks?

Finally, if I am going to ding Belichick for one thing, it is that he undervalues the utility of blue chip pass rushers. Chandler Jones could be very good next year, but the consistent lack of blue chip pass rushers is probably the single-biggest reason why the Pats have fallen a little short the last several years. A lack of a JJ Watt-type guy has left some questionable defensive backfields exposed...
   2810. Esoteric Posted: January 20, 2013 at 11:25 PM (#4351593)
Couldn't be happier about tonight's games. My Baltimore collegetown pride has re-emerged (and yeah, the fact that RGIII and the Skins got knocked out didn't hurt as far as rooting interests go), and you have to love a team that has been the overwhelming underdog for each of their last three games coming on strong like the Ravens have.

Also: brother vs. brother!
   2811. JJ1986 Posted: January 20, 2013 at 11:27 PM (#4351594)
a team that has been the overwhelming underdog for each of their last three games coming on strong like the Ravens have.


Their last two games have been hugely impressive, but they were a large favorite against the Colts.
   2812. Esoteric Posted: January 20, 2013 at 11:36 PM (#4351595)
Their last two games have been hugely impressive, but they were a large favorite against the Colts.
Point taken.
   2813. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 20, 2013 at 11:42 PM (#4351596)
Ravens were -6.5, which is large, but not as much as they were dogs the last two weeks.
   2814. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 20, 2013 at 11:52 PM (#4351597)
Haven't had a chance to read the thread yet but: I felt Belichicken was too timid in on the Raven's side of the field. At least a couple of times he passed up a 4th down chance at the 40-ish for a punt. The end of the first half screwup hurt.
   2815. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 20, 2013 at 11:57 PM (#4351599)
If you have a franchise quarterback who can throw with surgical precision, you're probably going to win a lot of games.

If you do not, the rules that protect the QB, disallow much contact with receivers, etc., make it tough to build a defense-first franchise.


Yeah, the rules no longer allow for this. You can do two things on defense to gain an edge:

1. Try to strip the ball. We've seen a vast increase in this over the past 5-10 years.

2. ... ... .. Well, maybe just the one.

Hmm, I seem to have forgotten the second one... Oh, rush the quarterback.

But you can't gain an edge on defense by hitting people anymore, on balance, given the way the quarterbacks and WRs are protected by the penalty calls.
   2816. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 20, 2013 at 11:58 PM (#4351600)
Haven't had a chance to read the thread yet but: I felt Belichicken was too timid in on the Raven's side of the field. At least a couple of times he passed up a 4th down chance at the 40-ish for a punt. The end of the first half screwup hurt.

That was pretty dumb, but then the Ravens were as timid as a titmouse in their first half play selection on first down, so it wasn't just the Patriots who were making questionable decisions. The Ravens wound up winning the game for the simplest of reasons: Once they got warmed up, they dominated the line of scrimmage.
   2817. Jim Wisinski Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:01 AM (#4351602)
Is Talib that big of a player?


When you need somebody to fire their mother's gun at somebody he can't be beat.
   2818. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:06 AM (#4351604)
   2819. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:08 AM (#4351605)
But you can't gain an edge on defense by hitting people anymore, on balance, given the way the quarterbacks and WRs are protected by the penalty calls.

IMO most of those rules changes are for the better, but some of them suffer from what I'd call overly literal enforcement, like one of those face mask calls in the Niners game where one of the defenders' fingers seemed to just brush against the face mask and the QB's helmet barely moved an inch, and yet he still got flagged.

Cowher made a good point at the end of the postgame show when he said that the Ravens should be studying the tapes from their game against the Redskins, because Kaepernick is going to present them with a challenge that's far closer to what they faced in Griffin than what they were up against in Manning and Brady. And screw the seedings going into the postseason, this is going to be one hell of a Super Bowl.
   2820. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:12 AM (#4351606)
Flacco was fine, but are we really giving him particular credit for this one (e.g. "Flacco is just a winner")? He played well and didn't turn the ball over. But 28 points doesn't usually beat the Patriots. There was also the Ravens defense, Belichick not going for it when he should, and two flukish turnovers from the Patriots.
   2821. DA Baracus Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:17 AM (#4351607)
As someone who hates sportswriter narrative, Harbaugh vs Harbaugh is going to drive me insane.
   2822. Tripon Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:18 AM (#4351608)
I'm hoping at the media session, somebody is a big enough troll to ask one of the Harbaugh's how long they're been brothers.
   2823. DA Baracus Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:20 AM (#4351609)
I'm hoping at the media session, somebody is a big enough troll to ask one of the Harbaugh's how long they're been brothers.


Or ask Kaepernick how long he's been a black quarterback.
   2824. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:30 AM (#4351610)
As someone who hates sportswriter narrative, Harbaugh vs Harbaugh is going to drive me insane.


Yeah. As if we didn't already have enough to deal with with this Ray Lewis nonsense.
   2825. BeanoCook Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:33 AM (#4351611)
2809 is probably right on the money.

I am the only one I know that thinks the entire NFL rule book should be reviewable. Therefore I think it is near criminal the head to head shot to Ridley wasn't reviewed and the turnover reversed. The only way he fumbles is if he is knocked dead, which he was by a full speed direct shot to the head. This play, penalty, should have been reviewable and the Pats should have been awarded a 15 yard penalty and the ball.

This coming from a guy that thinks 90% of the "head to head" hits are BS and the NFL is leading the way in outlawing football from football.
   2826. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:40 AM (#4351613)
Flacco was fine, but are we really giving him particular credit for this one (e.g. "Flacco is just a winner")? He played well and didn't turn the ball over. But 28 points doesn't usually beat the Patriots. There was also the Ravens defense, Belichick not going for it when he should, and two flukish turnovers from the Patriots.

Of course you're right about all of the above, but after Flacco's generally excellent performances in all but one playoff game he's ever been in, it gets a little tiresome to keep hearing about how weak he is, with the undertone that's his postseason performances are little more than a fluke. When he's played as well as he has against the consensus "best team in football" for the past three times he's faced them, I think he's shown us by now that he's more than an "average" quarterback. Going into today's game, his QB ratings for the past 3 postseasons (2 games each year against some of the top teams in the AFC) have been 90.0, 96.1 and 120.0, with 12 TDs and 2 interceptions. Doesn't mean he's an elite QB overall, but it does show what he's capable of when the chips are down.
   2827. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:42 AM (#4351614)
Oh, now we should all talk about clutch performance!
   2828. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:45 AM (#4351616)
So much of the coverage is silliness. Including the "play by play" broadcasting.

"Muhammad Ali sent John Harbaugh a text before the game."

I really don't care, Jim.

And the pre-game, halftime, and postgame shows are beyond execrable. Who is watching these?
   2829. DA Baracus Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:47 AM (#4351617)
Joe Flacco's playoff passer rating (coming into today) is 79.7.

Mark Sanchez's is 94.3.
   2830. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:49 AM (#4351619)
That's an interesting take on things, #2809. Thanks.
   2831. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:49 AM (#4351620)
As someone who hates sportswriter narrative, Harbaugh vs Harbaugh is going to drive me insane.


Yeah. As if we didn't already have enough to deal with with this Ray Lewis nonsense.

I think the last NFL championship game without some sort of schmaltzy "narrative" was probably the 1952 Lions-Browns game. It's one of those things that's more or less inevitable when you're straining to reach the sort of "casual fan" whose idea of a great football "story" is that Teo farce that's dominated the talk shows all week. The only way to deal with it and remain semi-sane is to mute the sound whenever the camera is focused on anything but the actual game on the field. Personally, I'm looking forward to seeing my DVD of today's games without a single second of commercials or Grammy Award singers.
   2832. DA Baracus Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:50 AM (#4351621)
So much of the coverage is silliness. Including the "play by play" broadcasting.


I'm glad that Ray Lewis has been largely invisible in the playoffs so that we have been spared non stop "Ray Lewis is willing his team to victory" BS.
   2833. The Yankee Clapper Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:50 AM (#4351622)
I'm hoping at the media session, somebody is a big enough troll to ask one of the Harbaugh's how long they're been brothers.

Or, do you have the same Dad?
   2834. Esoteric Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:54 AM (#4351623)
Would it be some sort of major Primer 'party foul' for me to admit that I'm actually something of a fan of Ray Lewis? I actually chanced to run into him (completely at random) when I was in college in Baltimore -- this would have been back in 2002 or so, just after the Ravens Superbowl victory, and he was an almost bizarrely humble and friendly guy. His past is obviously what it is, but it also seems to me to be pretty hard to deny that he's done everything humanly possible to turn his life around since then.

I'll tell you this: I find it far, far easier to forgive Ray Lewis his sins than Ben Roethlisberger.
   2835. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:56 AM (#4351624)
Joe Flacco's playoff passer rating (coming into today) is 79.7.

Mark Sanchez's is 94.3.


In that case I'm sure that the Patriots might have been better off today with Sanchez taking the snaps.
   2836. BeanoCook Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:58 AM (#4351625)
Ray Lewis was unable to defend the option vs Nebraska in the 1995 Orange Bowl, he will probably be equally useless vs the zone read in the Super Bowl.
   2837. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:59 AM (#4351626)
Would it be some sort of major Primer 'party foul' for me to admit that I'm actually something of a fan of Ray Lewis?

Not by me. The Ray Lewis hate here seems largely driven by Patriots fans and others who don't like the Ravens, and can be taken for what it's worth, though I do agree that the current narrative about him is overkill to the Nth degree, no pun intended.
   2838. DA Baracus Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:00 AM (#4351627)
In that case I'm sure that the Patriots might have been better off today with Sanchez taking the snaps.


Now you're just trolling.
   2839. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:02 AM (#4351628)
I'm glad that Ray Lewis has been largely invisible in the playoffs

I don't have today's total, but Lewis had 13 tackles against the Colts and 17 against the Broncos. I guess you must have been taking an extended nacho break or something.
   2840. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:04 AM (#4351629)
Joe Flacco's playoff passer rating (coming into today) is 79.7.

Mark Sanchez's is 94.3.

In that case I'm sure that the Patriots might have been better off today with Sanchez taking the snaps.

Now you're just trolling.


I love it, and here's a tip: Wait Till Next Year.

   2841. DA Baracus Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:06 AM (#4351630)
Raw tackle stats are worthless.

I love it, and here's a tip: Wait Till Next Year.


What does this even mean?
   2842. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:08 AM (#4351632)
We'll do lunch someday and I'll explain it to you.
   2843. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:01 AM (#4351636)
Sam H, you still out there? Wanna go stab some people in the neck?

not kidding.
Falcons Fan Stabbed In Throat outside stadium.
   2844. Jay Z Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:04 AM (#4351638)
Looking forward to that AAFC reunion matchup in the Super Bowl. Maybe the Patriots and the Falcons can have a Pythagorean Bowl or something in someone's mother's basement.


The Colts also claim to be an AAFC team. They could trace their history back to the AAFC, sort of, but not through the team they are claiming to be descended from.

The Colts did that for similar reasons as the Browns. We had a team named the same, it fell apart/left but not the fans' fault, we got a new team of the same name as soon as we could. So let's remember the old team as part of our history, okay? Makes enough sense unless you move the new version of the team, which the Colts did. The Colts history is by far the more convoluted.
   2845. steagles Posted: January 21, 2013 at 05:42 AM (#4351655)
doesn't get much better than steagles dropping flyers analysis in the middle of an nfl conference championship chatter
in case noone knew this, i really don't at all care about the NFL and the NHL past my local rooting interests.


i'm a fan of basketball and i'm a fan of baseball, but when it comes to football and the NHL, i'm really only a fan of the eagles and the flyers. the labor strife and the wanton disregard for player safety in both sports has completely sapped my ability to just sit down and enjoy a football (or a hockey) game with no rooting interests.
   2846. steagles Posted: January 21, 2013 at 07:34 AM (#4351656)
also, i'm not sure if this has been mentioned, but this is the first time in the last 10 years that the AFC has not been represented by brady (2003, 2004, 2007, 2011), roethlisberger (2005, 2008, 2010), or manning (2006, 2010).
   2847. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 21, 2013 at 09:13 AM (#4351666)
Looking forward to that AAFC reunion matchup in the Super Bowl. Maybe the Patriots and the Falcons can have a Pythagorean Bowl or something in someone's mother's basement.

The Colts also claim to be an AAFC team. They could trace their history back to the AAFC, sort of, but not through the team they are claiming to be descended from.


That Baltimore Colts team, featuring ugly green jerseys and no horseshoe on the helmet, was was born in 1946 as the Miami Seahawks, moved to Baltimore in 1947, went to the NFL along with the Browns and the 49ers in 1950, but then was disbanded after only a year. The team that's now the Indy Colts originated as the Brooklyn Dodgers, and began life in Baltimore in 1953 via Boston, New York and Dallas.

BTW the very first AAFC game matched the two "Colts" franchises: The one that became the Ravens (the original Cleveland Browns) and the one described above (the Miami Seahawks). And the first game the 49ers ever played was against another short-lived team known as....the New York Yankees. Glad I could clear that up.
   2848. Jay Z Posted: January 21, 2013 at 10:41 AM (#4351689)
That Baltimore Colts team, featuring ugly green jerseys and no horseshoe on the helmet, was was born in 1946 as the Miami Seahawks, moved to Baltimore in 1947, went to the NFL along with the Browns and the 49ers in 1950, but then was disbanded after only a year. The team that's now the Indy Colts originated as the Brooklyn Dodgers, and began life in Baltimore in 1953 via Boston, New York and Dallas.


I know. But the Colts never claimed the Texans et al as part of their history. 1953 Colts were a new franchise, that happened to be stocked with the players from the 1952 Texans. It really was a different case than other franchise moves. I can't think of another case where the ownership collapsed and the move was accompanied by a new ownership group. Usually the owners stay the same in a move.

Then the Colts "adopted" the history of the other 1947-50 Colts franchise. At least the records are listed in their media guide with the other Colts teams. Not the 1946 Seahawks, just the Baltimore Colts teams. I suppose back in the day Baltimore Colts fans looked back on the 1947-50 Colts with some degree of fondness as their first team, and wanted to remember them. Point being the Colts' official history in 2013 makes less sense than what the Browns have done.
   2849. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: January 21, 2013 at 11:21 AM (#4351714)
Would it be some sort of major Primer 'party foul' for me to admit that I'm actually something of a fan of Ray Lewis?


Despite being a Bostonian I'm not a Pats fan. I find Lewis reprehensible for the reasons most others do but I think you bring up some interesting points. It's a bit like the Lance Armstrong stuff. At what point do a bad act or acts invalidate lots of good work. Now in my opinion Lewis' involvement in a double homicide outweighs pretty much everything else but the fact remains Lewis, like so many others, is not a black and white answer.

The over the top coverage and sanctifying of the guy is pretty ridiculous particularly against the "won't people think of the children" B.S. of steroids but the media does that with people all the time. It's hardly unique to Lewis. At the end of the day its why I find myself watching virtually no sports coverage other than live events.
   2850. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 21, 2013 at 11:36 AM (#4351719)
Jay, every time a city loses one franchise and gets another, especially within a very short time frame, things can get complicated. This isn't true only with the Browns/Ravens or Seahawks/Colts/Cowboys, but with the original Senators/Twins/expansion Senators/Rangers/Expos/Nationals, or the Pilots/Brewers/Mariners. Franchises have traceable historical lineages that are linked by ownership, rosters, etc., but cities have memories that have nothing to do with that sort of thing. Your point about the NFL taking over the Dallas Texans is somewhat like what happened to the Expos in their last years in Montreal, only in the NFL's case the league takeover was only for a few months. But in both cases there was roster continuity.

I can totally see the logic of a Cleveland fan wanting to connect the original Browns team to the current one, even though all those two had in common were the city and the uniforms. Same with Baltimore fans who see both Colts franchises and the Ravens as part of their memories. As a fan of both the Baltimore Colts and the Ravens, I do the same thing myself, and if I ever began to waver, the marching song would remind me that those two teams are joined at the hip in memory, if not in the continuity of the rosters.

The part about the record books, though, is kind of silly, especially when (for instance) you get a city like Washington with connections to six distinct teams. You can have one set of records for the city, and another set for the franchise(s), but there's absolutely no way ever to reconcile them in a way that's going to please everyone. As in so many other areas, we just have to admit that "logic" can sometimes steer us in more than one direction.

   2851. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 21, 2013 at 11:39 AM (#4351720)
At the end of the day its why I find myself watching virtually no sports coverage other than live events.

That's the mark of certifiably sane human being. In two weeks I hope to qualify for premium membership in the club by not watching a single second of a single Super Bowl commercial.
   2852. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:26 PM (#4351742)
Being a Raider fan I don't have too many worries about my team making the playoffs because Al Davis did enough to screw up that team for at least 5 more years. At least with the Pats losing I am spared the choice of having to root for either the Niners or the Pats. That being said I think I am going to spend the Super Bowl with my son and trying to avoid watching any coverage for as long as I can.
   2853. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:50 PM (#4351756)
Despite being a Bostonian I'm not a Pats fan. I find Lewis reprehensible for the reasons most others do but I think you bring up some interesting points. It's a bit like the Lance Armstrong stuff. At what point do a bad act or acts invalidate lots of good work.


I find Lewis to be a clown. The dancing, the fake crying, the hey look at me, the theatrics, the role he played in a double murder.

Take it back.
   2854. Eddo Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:51 PM (#4351758)
I am the only one I know that thinks the entire NFL rule book should be reviewable. Therefore I think it is near criminal the head to head shot to Ridley wasn't reviewed and the turnover reversed. The only way he fumbles is if he is knocked dead, which he was by a full speed direct shot to the head. This play, penalty, should have been reviewable and the Pats should have been awarded a 15 yard penalty and the ball.

Why would it get overturned? Runners are not protected against helmet-to-helmet hits.
   2855. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:58 PM (#4351761)
I find Lewis to be a clown. The dancing, the fake crying, the hey look at me, the theatrics, the role he played in a double murder.

Hmmmm, isn't this where the old Ray would come in to remind you that the networks are simply feeding the public the kind of junk food they love, and that if you don't like what you're seeing, this is why God gave us the remote?

Of course any sane person cringes at all these "stories", but even though we don't like it, it's been part of the package ever since some genius thought to link the violin and the tinkling piano to 330 pound flying behemoths. Just hit the mute button and read a book while all that crap's going on.
   2856. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:58 PM (#4351762)

Why would it get overturned? Runners are not protected against helmet-to-helmet hits.


What is the reason to protect receivers, to protect quarterbacks, but not runningbacks?
   2857. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:00 PM (#4351765)
This is why I don't watch the olympics, by the way. The backstories are uninteresting, tiring, and largely irrelevant. I want to see the athletic competition.
   2858. JJ1986 Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:02 PM (#4351768)
What is the reason to protect receivers, to protect quarterbacks, but not runningbacks?


Receivers are protected because they're focused on catching the ball and can't do anything about the oncoming defenders if they want to make the grab. Once they turn upfield, they become runners. Quarterbacks are protected because teams all agree that they don't want their QB injured.
   2859. cmd600 Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:12 PM (#4351776)
Not sure about the rest of the logic, but this is so obviously wrong it should be pointed out:

If the Patriots have to go for two, they'll probably get it, meaning being up 7 or 8 is essentially meaningless.


Eh, I oversold it, but I still lean that way. I'm extremely confident in this Patriots offense going for two. Probably close to 2/3. I'll still say the numbers noticeably suggest you go for two in that situation the Ravens faced.
   2860. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:13 PM (#4351778)
Is one of the take-aways from the Ravens-Pats game that the wind killed New England? Seems like it pushed Bellichick into some conservative play-calling and really hurt Brady.
   2861. smileyy Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:13 PM (#4351779)
Flacco has some really good receivers, a hell of an arm, and enough of an offensive playbook set up around those two facts. That gets him a long way to being "elite".
   2862. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:14 PM (#4351780)
But if the goal is to protect players from vicious head shots, I don't see why this distinction matters.

Of course, runningbacks themselves lower their head and project themselves into the head of an opposing defender, so...
   2863. smileyy Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:17 PM (#4351782)
IMO most of those rules changes are for the better, but some of them suffer from what I'd call overly literal enforcement, like one of those face mask calls in the Niners game where one of the defenders' fingers seemed to just brush against the face mask and the QB's helmet barely moved an inch, and yet he still got flagged.


Additionally, it was the follow-through from a swat at the throwing arm, rather than a deliberate club to the head.

IMO, that play should be reviewable. Or at least a 5-yard penalty for incidental rather than intentional contact.

Mind you, the penalty on this play is the same penalty that was assessed against Alabama to a player who launched himself into a helmet-headbutt at the quarterback well after the ball was released in the NC game.
   2864. JJ1986 Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:21 PM (#4351784)
But if the goal is to protect players from vicious head shots, I don't see why this distinction matters.


The goal isn't really to protect most players. It's to discourage the hits (like the one that knocked Austin Collie out for half an hour) that look the worst for the NFL.
   2865. smileyy Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:21 PM (#4351785)
Would it be some sort of major Primer 'party foul' for me to admit that I'm actually something of a fan of Ray Lewis? I actually chanced to run into him (completely at random) when I was in college in Baltimore -- this would have been back in 2002 or so, just after the Ravens Superbowl victory, and he was an almost bizarrely humble and friendly guy.


Good thing you didn't meet him and his friends after the Super Bowl in 2000.

But yeah, no single narrative will tell the story. You can't just take one side of Ray Lewis. Ray Lewis is probably a model citizen right now. But one or more people who committed murder are walking free today because of Ray Lewis.


I'll tell you this: I find it far, far easier to forgive Ray Lewis his sins than Ben Roethlisberger.


I doubt Ray Lewis will be party to a murder again. I wouldn't be surprised if Ben Roethlisberger date rapes someone else.
   2866. smileyy Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:28 PM (#4351790)

The goal isn't really to protect most players. It's to discourage the hits (like the one that knocked Austin Collie out for half an hour) that look the worst for the NFL.


Right. The NFL (and most of the rest of organized football)'s narrative is that "big hits to the head" cause CTE. Many people are skeptical of this. Big hits to the head of a QB do cause that QB to miss games -- the NFL is protecting its revenue stream here. Unfortunately, it'll be another 10-20 years after "big hits" are banned that we'll likely still see players crippled and dying from their head injuries.

Helmets and rules really have to change, don't they?
   2867. chris p Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:30 PM (#4351791)
2809 is probably right on the money.

I am the only one I know that thinks the entire NFL rule book should be reviewable. Therefore I think it is near criminal the head to head shot to Ridley wasn't reviewed and the turnover reversed. The only way he fumbles is if he is knocked dead, which he was by a full speed direct shot to the head. This play, penalty, should have been reviewable and the Pats should have been awarded a 15 yard penalty and the ball.

This coming from a guy that thinks 90% of the "head to head" hits are BS and the NFL is leading the way in outlawing football from football.


there's been a lot of focus on how the penalties on hard hits outlaw defense, but i think the big change happened when they changed the way they called illegal contact and defensive holding.

that stuff made it really hard to play defense, and was the trigger that caused the recent explosion in offenses. of course, the league loves that stuff, but i have to imagine that fast-paced video game style offense just serves to exacerbate the concussion issue. iow, if the league was really interested in protecting its players, it'd let the db's put a finger or two on the receivers.
   2868. cmd600 Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:35 PM (#4351795)
People talk about Peyton's problems in playoff games, but man. Brady tops him by a half.


And it takes Peter King three pages to get around to calling Brady's performance a "C game". And that is the entire extent of his analysis on Brady's performance. I know he's the golden boy, but will it kill the media to say anything negative about him, including maybe a "and this hasn't become unusual for him in the playoffs"?
   2869. smileyy Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:38 PM (#4351796)
From what I've seen of him, Brady doesn't always have the laser arm that I mean when I say "modern NFL quarterback".

OTOH, not having a 100% Gronkowski in the last couple playoffs can also make a guy look bad.
   2870. DA Baracus Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:39 PM (#4351798)
And it takes Peter King three pages to get around to calling Brady's performance a "C game". And that is the entire extent of his analysis on Brady's performance.


Peter King is a tool.
   2871. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:19 PM (#4351833)
Is one of the take-aways from the Ravens-Pats game that the wind killed New England? Seems like it pushed Bellichick into some conservative play-calling and really hurt Brady.

Sort of the way Manning went ultra-conservative in the zero degree wind chill the week before, with nothing but short passes. Whereas Flacco used the long pass to critical advantage.

Don't know how much to make of it, but the announcers commented at least twice yesterday on how Flacco threw better into the wind than with the wind at his back, and there were several near-misses early on where his passes seemed to sail just beyond his receiver's outstretched hands.
   2872. Famous Original Joe C Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:35 PM (#4351850)

People talk about Peyton's problems in playoff games, but man. Brady tops him by a half.

And it takes Peter King three pages to get around to calling Brady's performance a "C game". And that is the entire extent of his analysis on Brady's performance. I know he's the golden boy, but will it kill the media to say anything negative about him, including maybe a "and this hasn't become unusual for him in the playoffs"?


Oh, chill out. Brady's performance is well down the list of the reasons the Patriots lost yesterday. Losing Talib, Flacco playing well, a couple of unlucky/fluky turnovers, dropped passes in key moments by Welker and Vereen, among others, played a larger role. It's not like Brady went out at threw four picks or completely gave the game away or something.


   2873. smileyy Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:40 PM (#4351857)
[2872] Sure, but I also never felt like I was watching a great QB when I was watching Brady yesterday.
   2874. Famous Original Joe C Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4351871)
[2872] Sure, but I also never felt like I was watching a great QB when I was watching Brady yesterday.


Isn't that kind of a strange standard to have? I'm fairly certain I could dig up long list of playoff games like that for every QB in the "greatest ever" discussion, games where you'd watch and say "Wait, he's one of the best five QBs ever?" Montana, Elway, Marino (especially Marino!), Manning, Brady, etc, etc.

Great players sometimes play mediocre games. When they do, they generally don't look like great players. Because, you know, they weren't playing great.
   2875. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:04 PM (#4351873)
From what I've seen of him, Brady doesn't always have the laser arm that I mean when I say "modern NFL quarterback".


Wow. I'll go along with the "Brady is human in the playoffs" thing -- to an extent; I mean, he _is_ something like 17-7 in the playoffs -- but he seems to have a rocket of an arm to me.
   2876. DA Baracus Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:07 PM (#4351877)
Great players sometimes play mediocre games. When they do, they generally don't look like great players. Because, you know, they weren't playing great.


Joe Montana got pulled in a playoff loss in '87.

Then he won back to back titles.
   2877. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:09 PM (#4351879)
Her facts are wrong, but...

No, it wasn't Tom Brady's supermodel wife who went on a postgame rant this time, but rather Wes Welker's wife, Anna Burns Welker, who went on the offensive against the Ravens.

"Proud of my husband and the Pats. By the way, if anyone is bored, please go to Ray Lewis' Wikipedia page. 6 kids 4 wives. Acquitted for murder. Paid a family off. Yay! What a hall of fame player! A true role model!," the former Miss Hooters wrote on her Facebook page following the Patriots' 28-13 loss to Baltimore.

Read more: Wife of Patriots' Welker goes on Facebook rant against Ravens' Lewis http://www.nypost.com/p/blogs/nflblitz/wife_lewis_patriots_welker_goes_lJxtNxHUhA8Wp06HB5rURL#ixzz2IdeUy8OA


(As far as I understand it, Lewis was indicted, but plead down to obstruction for lying to the police in exchange for testifying against his two co-defendants.)

Welker was probably sounding off to her about Lewis :-)
   2878. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:11 PM (#4351880)
And a walk down memory lane to Gisele's comments:

"You [need] to catch the ball when you're supposed to catch the ball," she was heard saying. "My husband cannot [expletive] throw the ball and catch the ball at the same time. I can't believe they dropped the ball so many times."
   2879. Flynn Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:11 PM (#4351881)
Being a Raider fan I don't have too many worries about my team making the playoffs because Al Davis did enough to screw up that team for at least 5 more years.


Hue Jackson did more to screw up the team than Al Davis in the last few years.
   2880. Howie Menckel Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:13 PM (#4351886)

Brady got some lucky breaks early in his career, like Tuck Rule and that Chargers game-ending INT that didn't end it when the idiot tried to gain yardage. Then later in his career, Brady got David Tyree helmet-catched.

He's the same QB, really, even if you flip those three plays around - but then he has one Super Bowl early and then an undefeated title later (well, that included a game-ending unsuccessful QB sneak until Ravens asst coach Rex Ryan called a timeout that no one on the field noticed, so more luck).

His breaks came early, though, so it changes the perception dramatically.

   2881. Flynn Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:26 PM (#4351892)
The Brady is a choker stuff is just a counterbalance to the "Brady is awesome!!!!!" narrative the media was peddling last year. It was all about how Brady was as good/better than Joe Montana. Now that Brady's had a couple meh games in the past few years it's turned into the media savaging him in the postseason.
   2882. Flynn Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:31 PM (#4351894)
Interesting fact: 3 of Brady's worst 4 playoff games by QB rating (a deeply flawed stat, I know) are against Baltimore in the past 3 years. The other game is that San Diego game from '07. So it's interesting to consider how much of Brady's playoff woes are a Baltimore problem.
   2883. JJ1986 Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:32 PM (#4351895)
that Chargers game-ending INT that didn't end it when the idiot tried to gain yardage.


This was pretty far into the middle of his career. I think it was a week before the AFC Championship game where Peyton Manning came back and destroyed the Patriots defense.
   2884. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:34 PM (#4351896)
Great players sometimes play mediocre games. When they do, they generally don't look like great players. Because, you know, they weren't playing great.

That's true, and as Howie points out, a lot of a QB's final image depends on at what point in his career his best games came. If John Elway had retired after the 1996 season, I doubt if his rep would be what it is today, and if some of Brady's earlier SB opponents had had defenses like the Ravens put on display yesterday, that golden boy image of his might never have gotten established to begin with. And if Lee Evans had held onto that pass last year, there's a decent chance that Flacco would be going for a Twopeat in two weeks.
   2885. DA Baracus Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:35 PM (#4351897)
There's footage of Marty Schottenheimer, in pre-game, telling his DBs "make sure when you catch the game winning INT that you immediately go down and end the play."

Sometimes athletes don't listen.
   2886. JJ1986 Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:38 PM (#4351901)
Someone randomly posted this on McCree's Wikipedia page:

McCree's tenure with the Chargers was defined by suffocating defense, aggressive, game-changing hits, and a fierce determination to win.


I don't know if it's supposed to be ironic.
   2887. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:38 PM (#4351902)
I doubt Ray Lewis will be party to a murder again. I wouldn't be surprised if Ben Roethlisberger date rapes someone else.


I wasn't aware there was a quota on how many unconvicted felons we could harbor resentment towards.
   2888. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:40 PM (#4351905)
McCree's tenure with the Chargers was defined by suffocating defense, aggressive, game-changing hits, and a fierce determination to win.


You forgot "ruthless dedication to the Pope."
   2889. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:59 PM (#4351920)
If he wins another Super Bowl, he'll be elite like Eli!

You can't spell ELIte without ...
   2890. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:09 PM (#4351931)
Brady is the Yankees, isn't he? A great player, good enough to get into the playoffs every year, had some huge postseason success early in winning the championship 3 of his first 4 years -- just a complete fluke -- and since then has had success in the postseason but hasn't won the big one again.

The comparison breaks down because the Yankees did win again, on the back of ARod, in 2009. But it's pretty close.

It's not only a "Ravens" problem. Eli beat him twice in the SB, which was kind of notable. And there was that game where he was leading big against Peyton at the half, only to get dropped in the second half.
   2891. smileyy Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4351939)
[2875] I meant that I wasn't seeing that in his arm yesterday.
   2892. bunyon Posted: January 21, 2013 at 05:08 PM (#4351986)
The Brady is a choker stuff is just a counterbalance to the "Brady is awesome!!!!!" narrative the media was peddling last year. It was all about how Brady was as good/better than Joe Montana. Now that Brady's had a couple meh games in the past few years it's turned into the media savaging him in the postseason.

It's like many of the things discussed in the last week or so - completely a media creation. For the media, superstars are either tremendous heroes who are clutch and nobel and all that or they're goats who make little babies cry. There is no in between.
   2893. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 06:39 PM (#4352071)
This Joe Posnanski take on Belichick not coming out for a press conference is probably the best possible take: http://joeposnanski.blogspot.com/2013/01/the-lost-belichick-interview.html
   2894. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 07:02 PM (#4352092)
Good Posnanski take. Yeah, if you are a person who thinks that Belichik offers any intelligence or insight in his press conferences, you don't understand what you have been watching. All he says is "They made some plays, we made some plays, they made more plays than we made, and so they won," in between intermittent smacking of his lips. There is no 'there' there. Yet, Shannon Sharpe, who once had to take a leave of absence to deal with a troubling accusation that resulted in a TRO - no charges were ever filed - blasts Belichik for.... failing to do a postgame presser.

This is about wanting to see Belichik on his knees in defeat after the game. Nothing more, nothing less.

And Sharpe should stick to analyzing the X's and O's. I don't need to hear him preaching about The Right Thing.
   2895. Squash Posted: January 21, 2013 at 07:05 PM (#4352094)
So why exactly is Tony Gonzalez retiring (and seeming so determined about it)? It must be mental fatigue because he's still the best TE in the league, particularly when you throw in durability. The fewest number of games he's played in a season, ever, is 15. Which he's done twice.
   2896. DA Baracus Posted: January 21, 2013 at 07:14 PM (#4352102)
He's said in not so many words that physically he would rather retire this year knowing he has a little left in the tank than play another year and wreck his body. Same reason Kurt Warner retired when he did. Gets to walk away on his own terms, which is not something every player, even sometimes great ones, can say.
   2897. Howie Menckel Posted: January 21, 2013 at 07:16 PM (#4352105)

I think for the Belichick haters, it should be even more delicious that the guy can't even bring himself to come out and go through the motions. Not that he would cry or something; just that losing is that unbearable for him.

I mentioned the Brady career track before, and how the breaks came early for him and the bad breaks came later. Same for Belichick, of course.

But for Brady, he makes a fortune in endorsements and bounces from Bridget Moynihan to Giselle. Life is still pretty sweet.

Belichick, maybe the biggest egomaniac in league history, seems to have no life beyond football. His obsession (well known for sleeping in his office during the season) helped get him that spectacular early success. All that work paid off in trophies.

Now he's still a great coach, and his team is very successful but.....
   2898. Flynn Posted: January 21, 2013 at 07:23 PM (#4352107)
I go both ways on Belichick. The banal questions must be infuriating. But he's such a miserable bastard sometimes. Parcells was caustic but funny and Walsh hated the press but enjoyed explaining things.

Sorry but it's part of the job.
   2899. Flynn Posted: January 21, 2013 at 07:25 PM (#4352109)

I mentioned the Brady career track before, and how the breaks came early for him and the bad breaks came later. Same for Belichick, of course.


Whoa, don't forget the Cleveland Browns job. He had to go back to working for Parcells to get a second chance.

   2900. DA Baracus Posted: January 21, 2013 at 07:29 PM (#4352113)
Belichick, maybe the biggest egomaniac in league history, seems to have no life beyond football.


What coach does? You become an NFL head coach in part by having no life beyond football. We know he was involved in an affair. That alone is more than we know about many other coaches.
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