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Tuesday, November 06, 2012

OT: NFL/NHL thread

i estimate that absolutely noone gives a damn about the NHL, so by folding that thread into this one, we won’t distract from what this thread is really about: boner pills, blood doping (is it low t?), and…jesus christ did mike vick just throw another ####### interception?

steagles Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:03 AM | 8370 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nfl, nhl

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   301. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 27, 2012 at 04:00 PM (#4310778)
I doubt that's remotely close to being true.


The hardest schedule in the history of football almost certainly belongs to a bottom feeder in an otherwise brutal division. The 2000 Bears, for instance, had a grand total of two games against teams with losing records. They played the 11-5 Vikings twice, the 10-6 Buccaneers twice, and the 12-4 Giants, 11-5 Eagles, 11-5 Dolphins, 10-6 Colts, and 10-6 Saints once apiece.
   302. SoSH U at work Posted: November 27, 2012 at 04:06 PM (#4310787)

It's almost impossible to play seven games in one season against 13-3 teams; you basically have to reach the Super Bowl (and not be a 13-3 team yourself) to do it.


If you're going to restrict your definition of "most difficult schedule in league history" to total number of games (by counting stats, not rate) against teams with a 13-3 record or better, then you're basically limiting it to teams like the Giants - mediocre regular season clubs that went to the Super Bowl. I'm not sure there would be universal agreement that this is the sole determining factor for toughest schedule ever.

Their regular season schedule was tough for playoff teams* (obviously, the weakest teams often play the toughest schedules, so there are plenty of non-playoff teams that had much tougher schedules than the 2011 Giants), but not historically so. Just going back one year, by FBRef's SOS ranking, the 2010 Jets played a considerably tougher regular season slate (a 2.5 rating to the Giants' 2.0), then met the 10-6 Colts, 14-2 Pats and 12-4 Steelers in the playoffs).

* I did notice this. Other than the Giants, the 2011 playoff field all played pretty unimpressive schedules. I wouldn't say it's enough to lift them into the stratsophere of the 13-wins-or-better club, but it's a point in their favor.
   303. Kurt Posted: November 27, 2012 at 04:23 PM (#4310812)
The 2000 Bears' opponents were 132-99 (.571) when not playing the Bears; the 2011 Giants' opponents were 178-123 (.591) when not playing the Giants.

If you're going to restrict your definition of "most difficult schedule in league history" to total number of games (by counting stats, not rate) against teams with a 13-3 record or better

I wouldn't restrict it to that, but if I were an elite or elite wanna-be team I'd rather play 2 8-8 teams than a 13-3 team and a 3-13 team (conversley, the 2000 Bears would probably rather play the 3-13 and 13-3 teams). So I do think the top-heaviness of the Giants' schedule is worth considering.
   304. DA Baracus Posted: November 27, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4310815)
The Giants played four teams that were 13-3 or better, they just played them seven times. The 2005 Steelers also played four teams that were 13-3 or better, and they too were a weak Super Bowl winner that got hot and lucky (Colts game = Giants vs 49ers).
   305. steagles Posted: November 27, 2012 at 04:35 PM (#4310825)
things:

1, desean jackson has been placed on injured reserve.

2, jason babin has been cut.

3, "5 QBs have had a passer rating of 120 or higher against Todd Bowles in 5 weeks. 7 had a rating of 120+ against Jim Johnson ... in 10 years."

4, "There’s currently a grand total of TWO teams in the entire league with fewer wins than the Eagles. The Chiefs are 1-10, and the Jaguars are 2-9. Three other teams – the Panthers, Browns and Raiders – are tied with the Eagles with three wins."

"The Browns and Raiders have to play each other (this week). The Panthers and Raiders meet in Week 16. Carolina, Oakland and Cleveland all still have to face the 1-10 Chiefs. In other words, someone’s got to win those games."


   306. Tripon Posted: November 27, 2012 at 04:38 PM (#4310829)
If there's one good thing about the Eagles' fade, its that Juan Castillo should be able to find a job somewhere in the NFL and not blamed for that mess.
   307. DA Baracus Posted: November 27, 2012 at 04:40 PM (#4310833)
Turns out Castillo wasn't as bad as we thought, but he was still awful. His defenses blew 7 leads in a year and a half and his play calling was a big reason why.
   308. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 27, 2012 at 04:57 PM (#4310858)
The 2000 Bears' opponents were 132-99 (.571) when not playing the Bears; the 2011 Giants' opponents were 178-123 (.591) when not playing the Giants.


I didn't think the 2000 Bears had the toughest schedule in NFL history, just that that's the model for one. Now that SOSH U pointed out football-reference's Strength of Schedule ranking, I see that the 1975 Browns had a whopping 4.2 SOS. They had:

12-2 Steelers twice
11-3 Bengals twice
10-4 Oilers twice
12-2 Vikings once
11-3 Raiders once
10-4 Colts once
8-6 Redskins once
7-7 Lions once
6-8 Broncos once
5-9 Chiefs once
2-12 Saints once

That's a beast.
   309. Kurt Posted: November 27, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4310890)
I see that the 1975 Browns had a whopping 4.2 SOS. They had:

Wow! .637 when you exclude the games with the Browns. I'll accept it.

Is there a place you found historical SoS rankings, or were you browsing seasons and came across that one?

   310. Tom Nawrocki Posted: November 27, 2012 at 05:51 PM (#4310929)
I just started in 1970, looking for divisions with three excellent teams and one patsy. The 1975 Browns the first one I came across; I make no claim that it's the strongest schedule of all time.
   311. zenbitz Posted: November 28, 2012 at 01:30 AM (#4311154)
The Giants were weird last year, and unhealthy for much of it. They are weird this year too, blowing out good teams (GB, SF) along with some stinkers.

For 2011 -
DVOA (accounts for SOS etc) has the Niners ahead of Pats by a hair. Followed by Denver, Seattle, Chicago.
Advancedfootballstats team efficiency (ignores special teams) has Denver, SF, HOU, Seattle, CAROLINA - NE has the 30th ranked defense
pro-football reference (essentially margin of victory corrected for SoS) goes NE >> SF > CHI,DEN,TEX.

NE has a much better MoV than SF, because they don't stop trying to score up 21 in the 2nd half (while the Niners go into turtle mode... which makes some amount of sense given their defense is good).

SF actually has the 2nd most _efficient_ (on a per-play basis) offense by success rate. But they don't pile up yards.
   312. steagles Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:26 PM (#4312916)
tyron mathieu has declared for the NFL draft.


if he's healthy, i'm fairly sure he'll go in the top 10 on draft day.
   313. McCoy Posted: November 29, 2012 at 09:39 PM (#4312935)
Can't believe GB vs Minnesota is the Mid-Atlantic game of the week this Sunday on Fox. Ugh.

And why is NE Pennsylvania watching TB vs Denver?
   314. Kurt Posted: November 30, 2012 at 12:17 AM (#4313048)
All 3 primetime games being NFC teams, including the entire NFC east, makes for not that many options. TB @ Denver is the only 4:00 Fox game.
   315. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: November 30, 2012 at 12:34 AM (#4313065)
Has the officiating of the ATL-NO game been as bad as the Falcons' radio guys suggest?
   316. Tripon Posted: November 30, 2012 at 12:48 AM (#4313073)
From the little I seen, yeah, its been pretty bad.

My theory is that the ref lockout pretty much made the crappier refs even worse than usual. But people haven't noticed that much because its still better than the supposedly worse replacement refs.

   317. zenbitz Posted: November 30, 2012 at 01:14 AM (#4313084)
Well, they let the Saints back in the game by inexplicably not blowing the whistle for forward progress. Rest of the call was fine.
On Brees' first 5th INT offsides was called - but I saw no laundry and there wasn't much of a replay. Can't say for sure if it was a bad call.
   318. steagles Posted: November 30, 2012 at 01:55 AM (#4313098)
from greg cosell at NFL films:

· Eagles route concepts do not help their receivers or their QB; Don’t see much bunch, stack release versus man coverage, high-low concepts, etc.

· Eagles run a lot of isolation one-on-one routes and expect their WRs to win on the outside, Jackson and Maclin do not win consistently versus man coverage

· Eagles kept the pass game approach very basic for Foles, Simple route concepts; like all season I have been very surprised by how uncreative, ineffective, and limited the Eagle offensive concepts are. Foles did not play particularly well but he is not being helped by the coaching


that is exactly what i've seen going back to last season, even going back to that ####### tie against the bengals in 2009. the decline of the eagles isn't about foles and it's not about vick, it's about a coaching staff that is disinterested and disengaged, and that just isn't focused enough and that doesn't work hard enough.
   319. BeanoCook Posted: November 30, 2012 at 04:23 AM (#4313129)
Last year the Pats beat 0, as in zero or none, teams with a winning record, until they won the AFC title game. I laughed for a week learning that. what a joke.
   320. steagles Posted: November 30, 2012 at 06:04 PM (#4313740)
@FakeWIPCaller:
This Sunday night, "The Walking Dead" will air on both AMC and NBC.
   321. Nasty Nate Posted: November 30, 2012 at 06:21 PM (#4313749)
- feeding retracted -
   322. Kurt Posted: November 30, 2012 at 06:23 PM (#4313751)
Forget it Nate, it's a long-running troll.
   323. Nasty Nate Posted: November 30, 2012 at 06:25 PM (#4313753)
I thought I remembered it from last year.
   324. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: December 01, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4314044)
Cheifs player that was 25 and black has commited sucide at arrowhead after shooting his girlfriend this morning, tragic and very sad, names have not been released yet
   325. Tripon Posted: December 01, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4314045)
Kansas City Chiefs linebacker Jovan Belcher this morning shot and killed his girlfriend before going to Arrowhead Stadium and fatally shooting himself as team personnel tried to stop him, police said.

Police Capt. David Lindaman said Belcher, 25, and his girlfriend, 22, got into an argument around 7 a.m. at their home in the 5400 block of Crysler Avenue in Kansas City. Around 7:50 a.m., Lindaman said, Belcher shot his girlfriend multiple times. She was taken to a hospital, where she was pronounced dead.

Lindaman said Belcher’s mother, who was visiting the couple and their 3-month-old daughter, witnessed the shooting and was being interviewed by police.

Belcher left the scene on Crysler and went to the Chiefs practice facility at Arrowhead, police said.

Police were called to the stadium around 8:10 a.m. When Belcher arrived there he encountered General Manager Scott Pioli, Coach Romeo Crennel and other team personnel. Police said Chiefs staff attempted to keep Belcher from committing additional acts of violence. When police arrived, they heard a gunshot and found that Belcher had shot himself in the head.

Read more here: http://www.kansascity.com/2012/12/01/3943246/chiefs-player-kills-girlfriend.html#storylink=cpy
   326. Gamingboy Posted: December 01, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4314070)
There is no reason the Chiefs should be playing tomorrow.
   327. McCoy Posted: December 01, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4314084)
Why?
   328. Tripon Posted: December 01, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4314109)
Watching a man shoot himself in front of you would probably take a toll on you.
   329. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 01, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4314126)
I didn't think the 2000 Bears had the toughest schedule in NFL history, just that that's the model for one. Now that SOSH U pointed out football-reference's Strength of Schedule ranking, I see that the 1975 Browns had a whopping 4.2 SOS. They had:

12-2 Steelers twice
11-3 Bengals twice
10-4 Oilers twice
12-2 Vikings once
11-3 Raiders once
10-4 Colts once
8-6 Redskins once
7-7 Lions once
6-8 Broncos once
5-9 Chiefs once
2-12 Saints once

That's a beast.


The real beast that year was the AFC Central. When the top three teams weren't playing each other, they had a combined record of 27-3. The Steelers lost only to the 8-6 Bills and the 12-2 Rams, the Bengals lost only to the 3-11 Browns, and the Oilers were 10-0 against every team other than the Steelers and the Bengals. The Steelers went on to win the Super Bowl, while the Wild Card Bengals lost a 3-point heartbreaker on the road to the 10-4 Raiders in the first round of the playoffs.

And if the Browns didn't face the toughest schedule of all time this side of the Washington Generals, I'd like to see a tougher one. They must have felt a bit like the bottom 5 teams in the 1971 Big Eight Conference, when #1 Nebraska swept the table, #2 Oklahoma beat every team except Nebraska, #3 Colorado went undefeated against every team except those top two, and then they all won convincing bowl game victories.

   330. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: December 01, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4314130)
So if this chiefd player has encephelopathy or some other brain damage the nfl is ###### right? Though come to think of it the WWE came out of the Benoit thing just fine.
   331. steagles Posted: December 01, 2012 at 05:04 PM (#4314135)
So if this chiefd player has encephelopathy or some other brain damage the nfl is ###### right? Though come to think of it the WWE came out of the Benoit thing just fine.
whether he did or not, i don't think we'll ever know for sure.
When police arrived, they heard a gunshot and found that Belcher had shot himself in the head.
   332. Tripon Posted: December 01, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4314142)
NFL is saying the Chiefs-Panthers game will play on Sunday.
   333. Gamingboy Posted: December 01, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4314152)

NFL is saying the Chiefs-Panthers game will play on Sunday.


I sure hope they asked the Chiefs themselves first. I mean, if they want to play, sure. But if the game is going to happen just because the NFL doesn't want to postpone or delay it, then shame on them.
   334. McCoy Posted: December 01, 2012 at 06:00 PM (#4314162)
Why?
   335. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 01, 2012 at 06:11 PM (#4314166)
They ought to postpone the game until the end of the season. Play it Thursday before the playoffs.
   336. Srul Itza Posted: December 01, 2012 at 07:02 PM (#4314184)
The only reason to play the game is seeding for the draft. It would be a mercy to cancel it.
   337. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 02, 2012 at 10:08 AM (#4314472)
Wonder how long Goodell will suspend him for.
   338. Tripon Posted: December 02, 2012 at 04:25 PM (#4314659)
It finally happened. Marc Sanchez benched. For Greg McLlory.
   339. DA Baracus Posted: December 02, 2012 at 04:29 PM (#4314661)
It finally happened. Marc Sanchez benched. For Greg McLlory.


It's because Tebow is out. Now it's just less of a circus.
   340. BDC Posted: December 02, 2012 at 04:36 PM (#4314668)
Just a brief note to mention that Drew Brees's TD-pass streak, now ended, is one of those few NFL records unrelated to length of season, and therefore comparably impressive to the one he broke (held by Johnny Unitas for over 50 years). Lots of great quarterbacks who passed a lot in that half-century, but Brees has been a model of consistent execution, his ghastly last Sunday notwithstanding.
   341. Tripon Posted: December 02, 2012 at 04:43 PM (#4314676)

It's because Tebow is out. Now it's just less of a circus.


They shown a few shots of Sanchez on the sidelines after he was benched. He even looked like he was relieved of playing QB.
   342. McCoy Posted: December 02, 2012 at 04:56 PM (#4314684)
Bears suck
   343. odds are meatwad is drunk Posted: December 02, 2012 at 05:05 PM (#4314688)
Brandon marshall is a beast
   344. zenbitz Posted: December 02, 2012 at 05:31 PM (#4314699)
Niners trying to tie the Rams again
   345. zenbitz Posted: December 02, 2012 at 05:34 PM (#4314701)
Rams have 4th and inches on the 35. 1 minute left, SF has no timeouts. Run 30sec off and try to win it..
   346. bunyon Posted: December 02, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4314703)
I just want to raise a point I've raised several times with not much response. Safeties are very underrated. Points and the ball. In the Rams game, they lose without the safety. Yet, no highlights and in the scoring summary it simply says "safety". How about a little respect?
   347. Tripon Posted: December 02, 2012 at 05:38 PM (#4314704)
I have to admit, I was rooting for the tie.
   348. Every Inge Counts Posted: December 02, 2012 at 05:46 PM (#4314705)
Lions lose another heart breaker. What a fun season.
   349. zenbitz Posted: December 02, 2012 at 05:47 PM (#4314706)
According to FOX's ref-in-a-box that was an incorrect call on the intentional grounding (because the LOS extends past the sidelines). However, there were numerous ticky-tack and out right bad calls in this game.

But in the end... stupid option pitch on 3rd-and-3 from your own 20 up 8 with 3 minutes to go.

   350. JJ1986 Posted: December 02, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4314715)
Who is the Steelers backup QB at this point?
   351. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 02, 2012 at 09:26 PM (#4314771)
Papers in NYC (he's from Long Island) starting to report Jovan Belcher had headaches and memory loss and, in one witness's eyes, rather significant changes in personality in the last few months. You have to fear CTE at this point, though it certainly isn't confirmed.
   352. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: December 02, 2012 at 09:30 PM (#4314772)
Lions lose another heart breaker. What a fun season.


I'm convinced they are about as "good" as they were last year. Just won everything last year. Found a way to lose everything this year. It's pretty incredible.

Good for Charlie Batch today.
   353. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 02, 2012 at 09:37 PM (#4314777)
It'll be one playoff win in 55 years after this season. Unreal.
   354. steagles Posted: December 03, 2012 at 04:21 AM (#4314991)
i've seen enough from nick foles to say that i'd be comfortable with him as the starting quarterback going into week 1 next season. he's had some hiccups, but he seems to be getting better with each game, and he's made some really nice throws. if he gets a few mechanical things ironed out (specifically, his tendencies to stare down his receiver before throwing the ball and to throw the ball without setting his feet), i believe he's got the potential to be a top-tier QB.


as for the thought of who might be the next head coach of the eagles, after seeing what bryce brown has done the last two weeks, i think i'm jumping on the chip kelly train. kelly's offense would seem to me to be the best way to get the most out of both brown and lesean mccoy. and while i could be wrong, i believe that kelly would be on board the howard-mudd-train as well, which isn't so important because of howard mudd, but because it would be nice to not lose another handful of quality lineman because of another switch in line coaches.

so, considering the eagles have two running backs who appear to be very good (mccoy and brown) and an offensive line that should be extremely athletic (figure some combination of peters, herremens, kelly and watkins at tackle, some combination of mathis, watkins, acott, or herremens at guard, and hopefully the return of jason kelce at center), it seems to me like the eagles' offensive personnel is kind of tailor-made for kelly's spread rushing attack. if he's the new coach, maybe the eagles draft an offensive lineman or a tight end or a quarterback, but other than that, every other pick the eagles have could be used on the defense.

so, i'll take him.
   355. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 03, 2012 at 10:03 AM (#4315047)
Pretty disappointing game for the Niners last night. David Akers is a problem right now. With a game the Patriots in NE, they are going to need some luck to get a bye in the playoffs and could even lose the division if they are unlucky.

The defense is still stout as they had a very good game yesterday but anytime you have an inexperienced QB, you have to expect some growing pains.
   356. Kurt Posted: December 03, 2012 at 10:06 AM (#4315052)
I disagree with #335. Either play the game or cancel it, but if you postpone it to the Thursday before the playoffs start you may as well let Gregg Popovich coach both teams.
   357. steagles Posted: December 03, 2012 at 10:10 AM (#4315056)
so, the eagles have fired their defensive line coach now. apparently the guy was pissed about jason babin being cut, and he had become disruptive.


nevermind that his unit has played like absolute #### despite having 3 guys pulling serious money (babin, cole, and jenkins) and 3 more who were picked in the first round (mike patterson, brandon graham, and fletcher cox).


i'm not gonna ##### about it because i'm happy it was done, but the lack of organizational discipline is both stunning and not at all surprising.


oh, and i don't know how many of you have ever followed a season like this, but my favorite part of the postgame interviews now is when every single player insists that this is still a good team. FOR ##### SAKE YOU'VE LOST 8 IN A ROW. STOP ####### TALKING ABOUT HOW ####### GOOD YOU ARE WHEN IT'S OBVIOUS THAT YOU'RE COMPLETE ####.
   358. steagles Posted: December 03, 2012 at 10:29 AM (#4315071)
also, i'm not quite sure how important this is, but in the last 50 years, there have 5 games in which an eagles RB has rushed for 150 yards and scored 2 TDs. two of them have been bryce brown in these last 2 weeks. the others were done by wilbert montgomery, lesean mccoy, and brian westbrook. yes, bryce brown, in his first two starts as an NFL running back has done something twice that 2 all-pro RBs and another former pro-bowler could only do once.


also, surprising as this may be to believe, at 220 lbs, bryce brown is the fastest eagles running back in the andy reid era. mccoy and westbrook had quickness and agility, but when brown gets a full head of steam going, he can run past people in ways that mccoy and westbrook really couldn't.

   359. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2012 at 10:47 AM (#4315085)
it was kind of shocking how once don barclay took over at right tackle how much better the running game looked

it's one half and once teams start testing him maybe he falls apart in pass protection

but you can tell he's a scrapper. that he is likes mixing it up with people

offensive linemen need a lot of skills to be successful but that's a good place to start
   360. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2012 at 11:15 AM (#4315111)
full credit to journal sentinel writer bob mcginn who has been advocating that barclay take over at tackle so lang could go back at guard.

unless lang's injury is more serious than thought one would expect exactly that to happen for sunday's game against detroit
   361. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4315224)
The Bears since starting 7-1 have now gone 1-3. So far the only team the Bears have beaten that currently has a winning record is the Colts in the season opener. The Bears are a godawful team masked by the fact that they played a powderpuff first half of a season. Like I said before the Bears will be lucky to get to 10 wins this year. Smith should be fired at the end of the season.
   362. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 03, 2012 at 12:56 PM (#4315232)
post 361

depending on how you believe the bears had about the 20th toughest schedule through 11 games.

i don't know if that qualifies as powderpuff but it does jibe with your overall sense that the bears played less than tough competition
   363. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 01:03 PM (#4315240)
depending on how you believe the bears had about the 20th toughest schedule through 11 games.

I'd love to see their SoS through the first 8 games.
   364. steagles Posted: December 03, 2012 at 01:13 PM (#4315254)
i may or may not have created a new monthly thread. if i did, i'm sure you'll notice it because it will probably break the main page.
   365. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 03, 2012 at 01:42 PM (#4315295)
Fifteen new cases of CTE among NFL players, including Ollie Matson and John Mackey. It's hard to conjure up a way out of this for football that doesn't involve significant change, or inevitable decline. Tough situation for longtime fans.
   366. McCoy Posted: December 03, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4315340)
Change the rules to alter how formations, lines, and tackling can be done. Drop the three point stance, have the line stand, disallow any helmet contact, and create a "strikezone" in which the only place to make contact on a body is from the torso to the shoulders and you can only make contact with that area with your hands, arms, shoulders, chest, and torso.


   367. JJ1986 Posted: December 03, 2012 at 10:12 PM (#4315979)
Why is the Holy Roller rule only in effect in the last two minutes? That makes no sense. It's not a timing thing, it's a yardage thing.
   368. Langer Monk Posted: December 03, 2012 at 11:03 PM (#4316016)
My god I hate watching ESPN.
   369. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 03, 2012 at 11:11 PM (#4316021)
My god I hate watching ESPN.


Watching the "Sunday Soundtrack" at the half drives home just how cultish most football teams are.
   370. Langer Monk Posted: December 03, 2012 at 11:41 PM (#4316056)
NFL Network has SoundFX, which usually attempts offers some actual insight from players, coaches, etc. Watching this broadcast though is really painful.
   371. smileyy Posted: December 04, 2012 at 12:04 AM (#4316077)
It's hard to conjure up a way out of this for football that doesn't involve significant change, or inevitable decline. Tough situation for longtime fans.


I'm a little in disbelief that there's no way to play something that looks like something in the history football without turning it into a bloodsport.

I mean, you're still going to have debilitating injury to the rest of the body (like a lot of other sports) -- its the head trauma that we're seeing as the real tragedy, right?
   372. Howie Menckel Posted: December 04, 2012 at 02:18 AM (#4316145)
Giants now lose any division tiebreakers to Redskins and Cowboys, so only a half-game lead on each. Surprising, given their disemboweling of the 49ers and Packers.

   373. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: December 04, 2012 at 07:30 AM (#4316179)
Are the Luck and Griffin III going to be remembered as the best two top picks (1 and 2) of any draft in any sport ever?
   374. zack Posted: December 05, 2012 at 05:28 PM (#4318075)
Are the Luck and Griffin III going to be remembered as the best two top picks (1 and 2) of any draft in any sport ever?

You mean that went together, and based on individual quality? I doubt it.

Just out of recent drafts Ovechkin and Malkin were 1 and 2 in 2004, that's 3 MVP's right there.

If I remember right, Elway and Eric Dickerson went 1 and 2. That would be a tall order.
   375. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 05, 2012 at 05:44 PM (#4318095)
Heck, they have a ways to go to catch Shaq and Alonzo Mourning.

All that said - that we can even have the conversation about them without laughing hysterically is pretty exciting.
   376. Nasty Nate Posted: December 05, 2012 at 05:47 PM (#4318099)
It's gotta be Hakeem Olajuwon and Michael Jordan ....ooops.

   377. Every Inge Counts Posted: December 05, 2012 at 06:14 PM (#4318123)
It's gotta be Hakeem Olajuwon and Michael Jordan ....ooops.


The NFL version of this I assume would be the 1989 draft:
1. Troy Aikman
2. Tony Mandarich
3. Barry Sanders
4. Derrick Thomas
5. Deion Sanders


   378. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: December 05, 2012 at 07:20 PM (#4318192)
Pretty disappointing game for the Niners last night. David Akers is a problem right now. With a game the Patriots in NE, they are going to need some luck to get a bye in the playoffs and could even lose the division if they are unlucky.

The defense is still stout as they had a very good game yesterday but anytime you have an inexperienced QB, you have to expect some growing pains.


Disagree re the defense. There's probably a way to find this out more accurately than rank speculation/exaggeration, but I wouldn't be surprised if you told me the Niners' D missed more tackles in the 2nd Rams game than in the rest of the season to date.

The playcall on the pitch wasn't anywhere near the biggest mistake/problem in that game:
1. Kaepernick not running out of bounds to burn the Rams' last TO
2. Kaepernick's safety (I don't care if some nerd says the LOS extends past the sideline, CK never should have been in the endzone throwing away to begin with; the LOS was the SEVENTEEN YARD LINE WHY ARE YOU IN THE END ZONE)
3. Harbaugh's (or Roman's) ludicrously conservative playcalling down the stretch (this is becoming a huge problem, and is EXACTLY how they failed to win the first Rams game; hard to believe run-run-run-50 yd FG was even still an OPTION, much less the approach they decided to go with)
4. Jackson breaking the first tackle and gaining several YAContact every time he touched the ball
5. Akers
6. The front seven failing to generate any consistent pressure in the 2nd half
7. Kapernick audibling out of a pass play and into a 1-yard run about half a dozen times over the course of the game
8. Kaepernick rushing the pitch
9. Ginn's lack of effort recovering the ball on the pitch
10. Calling the pitch play in the first place, which I actually think was a defensible idea.


And in terms of possibly losing the division, they've already been unlucky - Goodell already owes the Packers a win and Carroll a loss.
   379. Langer Monk Posted: December 06, 2012 at 01:41 PM (#4318749)
So, if anyone still cares - NHL talks have had two very long difficult days of negotiations, and may be as close to resolving the issues today as they have ever been - and probably also as close to having talks completely break down after today.

I am cautiously pessimistic.
   380. steagles Posted: December 06, 2012 at 03:15 PM (#4318867)
So, if anyone still cares - NHL talks have had two very long difficult days of negotiations, and may be as close to resolving the issues today as they have ever been - and probably also as close to having talks completely break down after today.
apparently they're nearing the shutdown point for the season. whether this is just posturing or not, i believe some NHL executive has made it clear that they will not be waiting until february to cancel the season like they did in 04, and also that it will take a ~60 game season for the league's sponsorship revenue to be lucrative enough to make the season financially viable.
   381. Langer Monk Posted: December 06, 2012 at 04:29 PM (#4318947)
Right. Apparently, from I don't remember where, 60 games are needed for 100% of sponsorship money, 40-60 is 75%. If they can start games by about 2 weeks from today, they can maybe possibly aim for 60 games, but it'll be real tough.

Overall, I think it's total bullshit, since my guess is that part of the deal on a partial season is prorated salaries, not to mention there will end up being some sort of rollback on the existing contract numbers.

WAG: if no deal by 12/12/12, no NHL this year.
   382. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4318976)
From ESPN. Please make this happen:

Commissioner Roger Goodell recently discussed a proposal to eliminate kickoffs with Rich McKay, the head of the league's competition committee, Time magazine reported.

Goodell and McKay discussed an idea brought up by Tampa Bay Buccaneers coach Greg Schiano in which a team, instead of kicking off, would get the ball at its own 30-yard line in a fourth-and-15 situation. The team then would punt the ball away or, to replace an onside kick, could go for it and, if they failed to get a first down, the opposing squad would start with great field position.


Few football plays are more boring than kickoff and punt returns. I skip past them with the 30-second advance button until I get to first down (and through the commercial). The only exception is a kickoff or punt return late in the 4th quarter of a close game.
   383. zenbitz Posted: December 06, 2012 at 05:20 PM (#4319014)
Uh, Ray. Doesn't this replace a kickoff return with a punt return? 99 times out of 100?

Kickoff returns are spectacularly more boring than punt returns, although there are more touchbacks.
   384. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4319018)
Um, yeah, probably.
   385. zack Posted: December 06, 2012 at 05:38 PM (#4319044)
I don't get the point of kick-offs anymore. Since they moved the kick spot back up, modern kickers put it straight out of the endzone pretty much every time unless they are kicking into the wind.

And it just leads to TD, commerical, extra point, commercial, kick-off, commercial. Wait, I just figured out the point.
   386. zenbitz Posted: December 06, 2012 at 05:39 PM (#4319045)
There's probably a way to find this out more accurately than rank speculation/exaggeration, but I wouldn't be surprised if you told me the Niners' D missed more tackles in the 2nd Rams game than in the rest of the season to date.


Are you confounding the 1st and 2nd rams games? I think they missed maybe 3-4 tackles in the 2nd. Jackson was 21 for 48 yards with 1 9 yard run... unless he was breaking a lot of tackles 4 yards behind the LOS (he probably did break a couple).

7. Kapernick audibling out of a pass play and into a 1-yard run about half a dozen times over the course of the game


I don't think this is fair either. I think they often call 2 runs in the huddle with the roll/kill call. Although I agree in GENERAL that they were either horribly misreading STL defense at the line, vastly optimistic about their OL, or tipping plays.
   387. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 06, 2012 at 05:58 PM (#4319080)
And it just leads to TD, commerical, extra point, commercial, kick-off, commercial. Wait, I just figured out the point.


Yeah, that's why I DVR a game and fastforward straight on through the kickoffs and commercials, right to the next 1st down.

Even the FGs are not interesting before the 4th quarter. So he shanks one. Big deal, there's nothing really to see there.

   388. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 06, 2012 at 06:26 PM (#4319115)
2008 NHL draft has a pretty good 1-2:

Steve Stamkos
Drew Doughty

   389. Tripon Posted: December 07, 2012 at 02:39 AM (#4319270)
So the NHL is pretty much canceled.
   390. zack Posted: December 07, 2012 at 09:50 AM (#4319308)
Yeah, season almost surely gone now. I don't know how you can be that close and then just tank everything, but it looks like I have yet again underestimated the hardline owner's avarice. Unbelievable.

Again, this rule that the NHL only needs 6 (of 30!) owners to reject any proposal is the worst bylaw I have ever heard of. It guarantees this will happen every damn time.
   391. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 11:36 AM (#4319375)
Graphic from last night's game. Most division titles. I might have this wrong but this is the gist:

11 - Manning
10 - Brady
9 - Montana
   392. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 07, 2012 at 11:41 AM (#4319381)
Interesting.

I looked back at Montana's career and was reminded that the 49ers were in a 4-team division all those years. 4 of the 6 divisions were 5-team divisions. So both the 21st-century players and Montana benefitted from that slight advantage over most potential division winners.
   393. DA Baracus Posted: December 07, 2012 at 11:41 AM (#4319382)
That needs some perspective though. Manning has 11 in 14 years as a starter, Brady 10 in 11, Montana had 9 in 12 years.

I looked back at Montana's career and was reminded that the 49ers were in a 4-team division all those years. 4 of the 6 divisions were 5-team divisions. So both the 21st-century players and Montana benefitted from that slight advantage over most potential division winners.


Not that it makes a huge difference, but he also had one with the Chiefs in a 5 team division.
   394. Papa Squid Posted: December 07, 2012 at 11:45 AM (#4319385)
Nah, I think there'll be a deal done in time to save the season. At some point, common sense has to take place, but yeah, the NHL choosing five-year guaranteed contracts as "the hill to die on", seems like a rather petty thing on which to cancel the season. No one's putting a gun to these guys heads to sign long deals. Also, the notion that bringing Don Fehr in to close the deal was a "dealbreaker" is mindblowing to me as well. What did they think the union hired him for? Then again, I've long held that NHL "leadership" was the dumbest in pro sports... but I never thought they were this dumb.
   395. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 12:25 PM (#4319413)
Ok, can we identify the best/greatest quarterback over the past 35 years? Are these the candidates, or am I missing someone? Near-full career players only (thus, excluding Aaron Rodgers et. al.). And I don't really think Elway or Favre or Marino has a claim to the title, but just including them anyway as I see them as in the top 7 of this time period. I guess people could quibble with someone like Fouts being excluded. And I know QB rating, for whatever it's worth, can't be compared across eras.

Anyway, in order of who I'd choose. Keep in mind this is not whose career I'd choose if I were drafting a QB; it's simply "which QB was the greatest." I view that question as a combination of peak, prime, career, regular season, postseason, super bowl wins, QB record, QB rating. Some of the categories that are important to me are below.

Brady: 133-38 regular season record (.778), 16-6 in the playoffs, 96.9 rating, 3 SB wins (5 trips)
Montana: 117-47 regular season (.713), 16-7 playoffs, 92.3, 4 SB
Manning: 151-70 regular season (.684), 9-10 playoffs, 95.5, 1 SB
Young: 94-49 regular season (.657), 8-6 playoffs, 96.8, 1 SB
Elway: 148-82 regular season (.644), 14-7 playoffs, 79.9, 3 SB
Favre: 186-112 regular season (.624), 13-11 playoffs, 86.0, 1 SB
Marino: 147-93 regular season (.613), 8-10 playoffs, 86.4, 0 SB

Comments:

1. I don't really see a reasonable argument for anyone except Brady. Unless one argues that he hasn't gone through his decline phase yet, but my impression is that decline phases for NFL QBs are quite short, so I don't think it will matters much, and he's just so far ahead of everyone in total, and does extremely well in each of my categories. At the end of the day, his .778 "winning percentage" can't be ignored, and in the other categories he does great.

2. I struggled on where to place Young, given his short career. Ultimately I placed him over Elway due to peak.

3. Manning's pedestrian performance in the playoffs wasn't enough to knock him from the top 3, in my view.

4. I expected Marino to rank ahead of Favre, but I don't think he does.

Thoughts? Anyone else to add? Something I should be considering but am not?
   396. JJ1986 Posted: December 07, 2012 at 12:33 PM (#4319418)
1. I don't really see a reasonable argument for anyone except Brady.


You must have missed the last 7-8 years of this argument.
   397. Random Transaction Generator Posted: December 07, 2012 at 12:36 PM (#4319420)
At the end of the day, his .778 "winning percentage" can't be ignored, and in the other categories he does great.


Why are we okay with using QB "wins" as a measurement of talent, but despise using pitcher "wins"?

Oh, and Elway only won 2 Super Bowls (in 5 appearances).
   398. DA Baracus Posted: December 07, 2012 at 12:39 PM (#4319424)
I've never understood the need to crown a singular best player, team, coach or whatever. What's wrong with saying the best ever were equals?
   399. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 12:40 PM (#4319425)
Why are we okay with using QB "wins" as a measurement of talent, but despise using pitcher "wins"?


Different sport, different (and worse) ways to measure player effectiveness (because you don't have the individual pitcher/batter and fielder/ball matchups that you have in baseball), etc. I've said before that I really _do_ think an NFL quarterback wins and loses games all by himself, as long as the head coach lets him open up the field and do his thing, throw vertically, throw long, throw early and often, etc.

So that's why I'm more than ok with it.
   400. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 07, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4319429)
Oh, and Elway only won 2 Super Bowls (in 5 appearances).


Thanks. I was having trouble finding SB wins and appearances, so was going from memory. For some reason I thought Elway finished up with 3 SB wins in a row.
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