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Well they did fire the OC he's had since day one.
I'll take peak either on my team any day, but if I have to choose one it is Rice, and it is not a hard decision. Plus count the rings ;)
Da--true that. I think he needs to establish that for more than 1/2 a season though.
thanks for linking that article
interesting stuff
i wonder how don hutson would match up in today's game? he was so far ahead of his time one thinks he at least would have a shot to be really good given training methods, etc of today
Agreed. I think Joe Flacco is nothing more than an average QB. And I don't think suddenly going to Jim Caldwell as his OC (and Caldwell never called plays) is going to make a noticeable difference.
I think the author blows off the fact that Rices' QBs were better - you could do some partitioning on this.
Something like:
For WRx: (EPqb - EPwrX) / ( avgEPqb - avgEPwr ) * EPwrX
That might actually get you era adjustment as well, since the aveEPs will be lower when it's harder to pass.
Some early 90s (alt.sports.football.sf-49ers) chatter on Hutson vs. Rice seemed to indicate that Hutson's best years were Rice-like if normalized but
a) his career was relatively short
b) he had huge years during WWII
I guess that doesn't really answer your timelining question. I mean, who knows. But on the other hand, maybe he was so good because CBs (or whatever they were called in 1940) never had to cover anyone. Did Hutson ever see a zone defense? Could he cover himself!
I suggest we do some grave robbing and clone him.
the game back then was really rough. receivers were mugged nonstop.
hutson's signature move when going up for the ball was a scissors kick so that he could leverage the defender away from him wihtout having to use his arms.
i have seen grainy black and white that jibes with my memory and my brothers memories (i was a young teen then)
imagine a guy going up for the ball while simultaneously kicking a defender in his stomach or his you know whats.
Reported accurately or not, but as a MN resident I saw much of Mosses peak and he very much took plays off (much more than Rice, and during much of his peak I lived in the California Bay Area).
Of course I might be a biased towards Rice because my brother taught him to swim (as an adult, seriously in Rice's pool), but still I normally agree chemistry and such is overstated - except when you start talking "greatest ever" then I think it can at least be looked at.
but there is taking off plays where you go at a reasonable pace and effort just in case and there is randy moss lope along half-hearted so obviously that the defense knows you are not in the play
that was moss. he was still a tremendous player. but as a fan it was annoying seeing a guy just jog along hands almost at his sides while a play was happening
Culliver told Artie Lange that gay teammates would not be welcome in the locker room, according to quotes posted by Yahoo! Sports.
"I don't do the gay guys man," Culliver said. "I don't do that. No, we don't got no gay people on the team, they gotta get up out of here if they do.
"Can't be with that sweet stuff. Nah ... can't be ... in the locker room man. Nah."
Culliver suggested that homosexual athletes keep their sexuality private until 10 years after they retire.
It's bad enough that he said this... but considering that he plays for San Francisco, it makes it even more vile. What a moron.
Note to Chris Culliver: I doubt they want you to.
Will mention by the announcers of Ray Lewis or the Harbaugh Brothers be on it?
You're gonna have to set over/unders on that.
In 1996, Sports Illustrated's history of the NFL ranked pro football's greatest players across the years, and Hutson was at the top of the list. It shows the difference between football and baseball that a pretty high percentage of baseball fans would still consider Babe Ruth the gold standard, whereas I doubt if 1 in 10 non-Green Bay football fans would even recognize Hutson's name.
BTW Hutson's listed height / weight numbers are 6-1, 183, Jerry Rice's 6-2, 200, not that big a difference. Of course the real difference isn't between the two ends, but between the skill, speed and strength of their defenders.
I'd like to see some predictions vs. the current 3 1/2 point spread that favors the 49ers. I'd take the points, since I can see either team winning a very close game. The one thing I can't see is a blowout.
He never left.
I think 3.5 points is about right.
By the whole season's points differential and Sos (SRS), the Niners should be -7 or so. The FO number crunchers put it pretty close to a 60-40, which is roughly a -3. AdvancedFootballStats hasn't posted his % yet, but the Niners have a 0.1 EPA/P edge, and I think a 70% chance to win by his model, which is like a 6 point spread. AFS ignores special teams, which to the extent they are predictable, are a big Ravens' edge.
The line opened at -5.
BUT it's clear that Baltimore's OL and defense are playing much better. Not to mention the new OC.
Plus I think Baltimore is actually a bad matchup for SF (assuming their run defense is back near 2011 standards). The Niners losses this this have ALL been to teams that stopped the run.
SO if you believe special teams are 100% random (i..e, Akers has just missed a bunch of coin flips to the left) from game to game, then you should probably take the niners, as they should be favored by 5-6. If you do think the special teams differences will be manifest, then it's a very close call at -3.5, might want to go Ravens with the assumption they are finally healthy.
But bottom line, big brother always wins, right?
Owens was a problem off the field but he was an amazing player. He went over the middle, could take a hit, run block, run the deep route, and never took plays off.
These teams played in November of 2011 and the Ravens pulled away in the 4th quarter to win by 16 to 6. The Niners averaged just 2.6 yards per run in that game. This time they've got Kaepernick, but in that 2011 game Smith averaged 10.7 yards per completion on 15/24 and no interceptions. I think the line probably gives too much emphasis to Baltimore's mediocre regular season performance, but this is a different team altogether than it was in December----just ask Denver and the Patriots.
In 1995, the 49ers used the #10 overall pick on JJ Stokes. In 1996, they used a third-rounder on Owens. T.O. was definitely a 'me' guy, but he always came to play.
I thought about this very thing yesterday, but quickly went to ... so Rice is the best (Hutson is too far back for me to timeline at all, sorry), who is second? Moss, Owens, or who are the other contenders?
a green bay guy from a more recent era for whom i have tremendous admiration in how he played was james lofton.
lofton was an amazing receiver. whole package. fast. strong. great hands. i think his 1983 and 1984 seasons are among the greatest given that every defense knew green bay was going to try and get the ball to lofton and despite all the attention he still averaged over 20 yards a catch and rolled up over 1300 yards total each season.
i don't know where he sits in the pantheon but if you lined up a top 5 list he would be on it for me. easily
If Hutson's too far back to timeline, then what about Hank Greenberg in baseball? His career (1933-41; 1945-47) began and ended within a year or two of Hutson's (1935-45). And if Hutson's too long ago, what year is your cutoff point for football? Did football only begin with Jim Brown or Walter Payton?
I don't think that's a valid comparison. The NFL of the 1930s was vastly different from today's NFL, a much bigger difference than that of baseball between the 1930s and now. Most significantly, Hutson played in the two-way era, which means he never had to face defensive backs chosen for their ability to defend the pass. It also means he was forced to play defensive end himself, and who knows how that affected his game.
Also, the NFL of that era was disreputable enough that it's hard to believe they got even half the best potential players. Hutson entered the NFL the year before the draft; in the first year of the draft, only 28 of the 81 players drafted even played in the NFL. The talent level in the NFL at that point was extremely low. They were literally pulling guys off the street. The NFL of the 1930s was more like MLB in the 1880s or even 1870s than it was like MLB of the 1930s.
So I don't think it's possible to do meaingful timelining from that point. We know Hutson was the greatest end of his time, and probably the greatest end of the first 50 years of the NFL. We can't know how he compares in any real way to Jerry Rice or Randy Moss. They played a totally different game.
Jerry Rice is the greatest in part due to career length, but relative to his era Hutson's was ridiculous. An eleven year career in today's game is pretty good, back then it was really something. There were 39 HOFers who played between the 20s and the 40s, and only 8 of them played double digit years.
The niners have played some pretty good DLs since then but no one schoolled them like that again.
I see that the consensus between Tom and DA is that Hutson's environment was too radically different from the modern NFL to make any valid comparison. A fair point, with good reasons given for saying that, as long as they're not used simply to discount the possibility that Hutson might have been simply an all-time great who was just ahead of his time, much like Nap Lajoie or other early 20th century baseball greats who never made it into the modern era.
But granting the impossibility of making any meaningful comparisons between Hutson and Rice, or Baugh and Manning, at what point in NFL history do you think we can make timeline comparisons that aren't skewed by dramatically different conditions? How far back do we have to go before the relative lack of black players** becomes statistically significant? At what point do the height and weight differentials disqualify all but the biggest Old School NFL lineman?
Tom raises the good point about how Hutson's two way play might have affected the quality of his offensive game? What would Peyton Manning's passing stats look if he, like Sammy Baugh, had to play defense, and guard Anquan Boldin? At what point can we say with any degree of certainty that stars like Hutson or Baugh or Otto Graham or Jim Brown or Dick Butkus could have moved forward in time and excelled in today's game?
**Quiet as it's kept, the expansion of the talent pool in the NFL over the past 60 years may be even greater than it's been in baseball. Think of all the all-white southern and southwestern college teams, now overwhelmingly black, that didn't integrate until the 70's. Think of of all the northern and western teams that had de facto quotas for black players before that. Think of the exponential explosion in recruitment by all of these colleges, and the money that incentivizes it. The enormous quality difference between today's NFL and the NFL of Jim Brown's era may be largely explained by these simple changes.
The niners have played some pretty good DLs since then but no one schooled them like that again.
Not to that extent, but both the Giants (at Candlestick) and the Seahawks (in Seattle) beat the stuffing out of them in this year's regular season. The Niners are a very good team, but they're hardly invulnerable.
Absolutely. Hutson just dominated the league in the second half of his career and in the first half was year in and year out the best at his position. That's greatness.
I don't know if we can ever truly answer your questions though. The game was just so much different. I agree with Tom that the 1920s and 30s of football was like the 1880s or so of baseball. It was played different, it was thought of different, it was treated different. I think anything prior to the AFL, which brought an immediate and significant expansion of talent and money, is murky at best.
What part of "it should be a 3ish point spread game" indicates that I think the 49ers are invulnerable? Heck, gun to my head I probably take the points.
However, the Seahawks had only 1 sack of Kaepernick (2 for 2 yards against Smith), and in both games they gave up 313 yards to SF. The asskicking in that game was on the 49ers defense.
The Giants DL did dominate their game, at least pass rushing with 6 sacks. But even 6 != 9.
In both games the Niners managed to eek out 4 yards per carry on the ground. The common theme in both of those games and the tie with the Rams is that the Niners gave up huge yards on the ground. The second ram game was decided by a missed FG in OT by Akers which was set up by a horrible pitch play that went over Ted Ginns head and was scooped up for a score.
I should add that I picked wrong terrible ex-49 Guard. Adam Snyder was replaced by Alex Boone. Chilo was 2010.
I know no one cares but me, but I think I missed on John Henry-ing this prediction. It came out today at 60-40 Niners, within a point of FootballOutsiders.
Again, both % are "calculated" from the whole season + playoff stats together.
Your point about the AFL is critical, since it was the AFL that right from the start went after the sort of black talent that the NFL for whatever reason didn't seem to pursue with the same degree of eagerness. But the real explosion in talent came sometime in the late 70's or early 80's, once all the colleges got rid of their racial quota systems and just began recruiting the best players who were out there.
I'm not sure I'd take the baseball comparison quite as far back as the 19th century, but I don't think that comparing the NFL of the 30's to the early 1900s in baseball would be too out of line. In both cases you had a handful of superstars and a few super teams dominating everyone else with impunity.
And although the early (pre-merger) days of pro football were primitive compared to today's game, that doesn't mean that the earlier version wasn't every bit as entertaining or colorful, just like early baseball. If anyone ever wants to read what is undoubtedly and unreservedly the best book on the first 50 years of the NFL (and AAFC and AFL), he should get a hold of Dan Daly's The National Forgotten League: Entertaining Stories and Observations from Pro Football's First Fifty Years. I promise never to do this again, but this book is so goddam good I'm going to quote my own review of it from Amazon:
Late (out of touch for a bit), but yeah the others covered it. I mean no disrespect to Hutson, I just have no idea how to compare him to Rice.
btw: Hutson played Safety on defense and actually was thought to be pretty good at it, leading the league in INTS at least once if I recall, he was also the kicker most of his seasons, again he was one of the only 'professionals' of his day.
The 1934 Alabama team of Hutson's was pretty sporty. Undefeated in 10 games, outscored their opponents by an average of 32 to 5, whupped a previously unbeaten Stanford team in the Rose Bowl, had an All-American tailback (Dixie Howell) and an All-American tackle (Bill Lee), plus Hutson and another end, a skinny little kid named Paul Bryant, later better known as "Bear". Their coach Frank Thomas called it the greatest team he ever had, and given his record, that was quite a compliment.
Yes, Gio is a total scumbag now thanks to some scribbles on a paper, but even though Marino's wife knew make no mistake, Marino is a good man. This news changes some things. But not that. He is a good, responsible, civically conscious, locally conspicuous and, yep, obviously flawed man.
I think Tim Brown gets overlooked in these conversations. #5 all-time in receptions and yards, #7 in receiving TD's, despite not becoming a starting receiver until what looks like his fifth season. Prior to that, he was a return specialist and #3 guy. I'd probably take Moss, but Brown never gets mentioned.
Game called the... Harbaugh Bowl [] Harbowl [ ] Bro Bowl [ ] Any other Harbaugh-related pun or wordplay [ ]
Streaker, Wardrobe Malfunction, or similar nudity [ ]
Commercials: Somebody gets hit in the groin [ ] Cute dog [ ] Chimp [ ] Peyton Manning [ ] Self-referential commercial [ ]
Jay-Z shows up [ ]
Concussions mentioned: Alex Smith's [ ] Anybody else [ ]
Ray Lewis: Cries [ ] Gives speech that makes you want to run through a wall even if you hate him [ ] Evokes God [ ]
Ray Lewis'...: Whole stabbing thing referenced [ ] Deer antler thing referenced [ ]
Mention of the ref controversy [ ]
Mention of any of the LGBT-related stuff that's happened over the past week [ ]
Mention that "billions" of people are watching, even though they aren't [ ]
49er greats mentioned: Montana [ ] Rice [ ] Young [ ] Walsh [ ] Dwight Clark [ ] Ronnie Lott [ ]
Baltimore Colts (or a Baltimore Colts great) referenced [ ]
Turnover in red zone [ ]
Akers misses a field goal [ ]
Michael Phelps appears [ ] (Bonus: Adam Jones appears [ ])
Suggestions?
-49ers 5-0 in Super Bowls, Ravens 1-0, "something's gotta give"
-Pictures of Ray Lewis from his rookie season/college career
-Randy Moss catches a pass
New Orleans: The Big Easy, Crescent City, Hurricane Katrina - all must be mentioned to score here
With current weather.
Which then triggers bringing up Trent Dilfer getting released after winning the Super Bowl, without mention that they pointlessly replaced him with Elvis Grbac.
Mention that Aldon Smith hasnt had a sack in 5 games; Aldon get sack within 1 defensive series[ ]
Jeff Hostetler (NYG) in 1991. Phil Simms got injured late in the season and Hostetler started the final two games and the playoffs.
Doug Williams (WAS) in 1988. Jay Schoeder was the starting QB, got injured in the first game, and then lost his position even when he was healthy later in the season.
Vince Ferragamo for the Rams in 1979, Pat Haden had gotten hurt.
Terry Bradshaw in 1974. Joe Gilliam started the year and was benched.
If you want to be really generous, Kurt Warner in 1999.
Footage of C. Kap. running said Ault's pistol at Nevada [ ]
Jake Delhomme took over for Rodney Peete in the second half of the 2003 season opener.
Game called the... Harbaugh Bowl [] Harbowl [ ] Bro Bowl [ ] Any other Harbaugh-related pun or wordplay [ ]
Streaker, Wardrobe Malfunction, or similar nudity [ ]
Commercials: Somebody gets hit in the groin [ ] Cute dog [ ] Chimp [ ] Peyton Manning [ ] Self-referential commercial [ ]
Jay-Z shows up [ ]
Concussions mentioned: Alex Smith's [ ] Anybody else [ ]
Ray Lewis: Cries [ ] Gives speech that makes you want to run through a wall even if you hate him [ ] Evokes God [ ]
Ray Lewis'...: Whole stabbing thing referenced [ ] Deer antler thing referenced [ ]
Mention of the ref controversy [ ]
Mention of any of the LGBT-related stuff that's happened over the past week [ ]
Mention that "billions" of people are watching, even though they aren't [ ]
49er greats mentioned: Montana [ ] Rice [ ] Young [ ] Walsh [ ] Dwight Clark [ ] Ronnie Lott [ ]
Baltimore Colts (or a Baltimore Colts great) referenced [ ]
Turnover in red zone [ ]
Akers misses a field goal [ ]
Michael Phelps appears [ ] (Bonus: Adam Jones appears [ ])
Both teams undefeated in Super Bowls [ ]
Gucamole referenced (commercials don't count) [ ]
Rich Gannon also went to Delaware [ ]
Mention that 2014 SB will be in Meadowlads [ ]
Big Easy-Crescent City-Hurricane Katrina trifecta [ ]
Alex Smith shown immediately after a Kaepernick play [ ]
Reference to how San Francisco could have both the SB and WS championship [ ]
Flacco free-agency [ ]
Chris Ault referenced [ ] (Kaepernick playing for Ault [ ])
Reference to how Chris Simms was the first guy to shout how he was going to Disney World [ ]
Reference to whatever Obama's pick is [ ]
Footage of Drew Brees and his kid from a few years back [ ]
Game called the... Harbaugh Bowl [] Harbowl [ ] Bro Bowl [ ] Any other Harbaugh-related pun or wordplay [ ]
Streaker, Wardrobe Malfunction, or similar nudity [ ]
Commercials: Somebody gets hit in the groin [ ] Cute dog [ ] Chimp [ ] Peyton Manning [ ] Self-referential commercial [ ]
Jay-Z shows up [ ]
Concussions mentioned: Alex Smith's [ ] Anybody else [ ]
Ray Lewis: Cries [ ] Gives speech that makes you want to run through a wall even if you hate him [ ] Evokes God [ ]
Ray Lewis'...: Whole stabbing thing referenced [ ] Deer antler thing referenced [ ]
Mention of the ref controversy [ ]
Mention of any of the LGBT-related stuff that's happened over the past week [ ]
Mention that "billions" of people are watching, even though they aren't [ ]
49er greats mentioned: Montana [ ] Rice [ ] Young [ ] Walsh [ ] Dwight Clark [ ] Ronnie Lott [ ]
Baltimore Colts (or a Baltimore Colts great) referenced [ ]
Turnover in red zone [ ]
Akers misses a field goal [ ]
Michael Phelps appears [ ] (Bonus: Adam Jones appears [ ])
Both teams undefeated in Super Bowls [ ]
Gucamole referenced (commercials don't count) [ ]
Rich Gannon also went to Delaware [ ]
Mention that 2014 SB will be in Meadowlads [ ]
Big Easy-Crescent City-Hurricane Katrina trifecta [ ]
Alex Smith shown immediately after a Kaepernick play [ ]
Reference to how San Francisco could have both the SB and WS championship [ ]
Flacco free-agency [ ]
Chris Ault referenced [ ] (Kaepernick playing for Ault [ ])
Reference to how Chris Simms was the first guy to shout how he was going to Disney World [ ]
Reference to whatever Obama's pick is [NOT GOING TO BE DONE, HE DIDN'T GIVE HIS PICK IN INTERVIEW]
Footage of Drew Brees and his kid from a few years back [ ]
Kaepernick Tattoos mentioned [ ]
Ray Lewis' first sack was of Jim Harbaugh [ ]
Mention that the brother-in-law of the Harbaugh Brothers, Tom Crean, is head coach of the Indiana Hoosiers [ ]
Checklist begins at end of national anthem. Come and join the fun!
Warner started all 16 games so it doesn't quite fit the trivia question, but if I'm recalling it right it's got the spirit of "Super Bowl with a guy who wasn't the planned QB" angle.
ETA: Missed the final line of the checklist. Ray gets off on a technicality... again.
Rule of thumb is that it starts at end of anthem.
Edited: Just saw your ETA.
thought you meant diperna because i'm an idiot. still made sense, though. #rayusa
goats are always funny
he has always struck me as a thug in a football uniform
very pedestrian
wife is very musical and gave it a grade of 'c'
follow up comment. "very boring."
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