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Tuesday, November 06, 2012

OT: NFL/NHL thread

i estimate that absolutely noone gives a damn about the NHL, so by folding that thread into this one, we won’t distract from what this thread is really about: boner pills, blood doping (is it low t?), and…jesus christ did mike vick just throw another ####### interception?

steagles Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:03 AM | 7987 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nfl, nhl

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   3101. DA Baracus Posted: January 30, 2013 at 12:51 AM (#4357983)
Flacco has no argument. Well, maybe he could argue that he was hamstrung by a conservative Raven offense scheme his whole career. In which case he should in no way resign with Baltimore.


Well they did fire the OC he's had since day one.
   3102. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 30, 2013 at 10:17 AM (#4358091)
In football it is really tough to establish "greatest" because the game changes so very much, but I feel comfortable in saying Rice is better than Moss (and I am pretty even nuetral on this as a 49er and Viking fan). Both are great great talents with insane production, but Moss took way too many plays off and generally was a headcase, while Rice worked his tail off and did not have nearly the nonsense, retirements, legal issues, trades and so on.

I'll take peak either on my team any day, but if I have to choose one it is Rice, and it is not a hard decision. Plus count the rings ;)
   3103. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 30, 2013 at 11:17 AM (#4358121)
No idea if the analysis is legit, but it supports my feelings so.
   3104. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: January 30, 2013 at 11:46 AM (#4358146)
Jerry Rice was a better all-around receiver and a better teammate than Randy Moss.
   3105. zenbitz Posted: January 30, 2013 at 02:00 PM (#4358292)
I dont hold with any of that "took plays off" "good teammate" blah de blah. Not that its not important in real life, but its not reported accurately.

Da--true that. I think he needs to establish that for more than 1/2 a season though.
   3106. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 30, 2013 at 02:06 PM (#4358299)
bitter

thanks for linking that article

interesting stuff

i wonder how don hutson would match up in today's game? he was so far ahead of his time one thinks he at least would have a shot to be really good given training methods, etc of today
   3107. DA Baracus Posted: January 30, 2013 at 02:14 PM (#4358305)
Da--true that. I think he needs to establish that for more than 1/2 a season though.


Agreed. I think Joe Flacco is nothing more than an average QB. And I don't think suddenly going to Jim Caldwell as his OC (and Caldwell never called plays) is going to make a noticeable difference.
   3108. zenbitz Posted: January 30, 2013 at 02:24 PM (#4358310)
@3103 - I think the analysis is reasonable sound. EP, even inferred EP is a solid metric. He certainly could have done some more work and normalized for era - what you would have to do for Hutson.

I think the author blows off the fact that Rices' QBs were better - you could do some partitioning on this.
Something like:
For WRx: (EPqb - EPwrX) / ( avgEPqb - avgEPwr ) * EPwrX

That might actually get you era adjustment as well, since the aveEPs will be lower when it's harder to pass.


Some early 90s (alt.sports.football.sf-49ers) chatter on Hutson vs. Rice seemed to indicate that Hutson's best years were Rice-like if normalized but
a) his career was relatively short
b) he had huge years during WWII

I guess that doesn't really answer your timelining question. I mean, who knows. But on the other hand, maybe he was so good because CBs (or whatever they were called in 1940) never had to cover anyone. Did Hutson ever see a zone defense? Could he cover himself!

I suggest we do some grave robbing and clone him.

   3109. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 30, 2013 at 02:30 PM (#4358319)
zen

the game back then was really rough. receivers were mugged nonstop.

hutson's signature move when going up for the ball was a scissors kick so that he could leverage the defender away from him wihtout having to use his arms.

i have seen grainy black and white that jibes with my memory and my brothers memories (i was a young teen then)

imagine a guy going up for the ball while simultaneously kicking a defender in his stomach or his you know whats.
   3110. smileyy Posted: January 30, 2013 at 02:42 PM (#4358341)
The argument for Moss is an ultra-tiny peak. Like, peak plays.
   3111. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 30, 2013 at 03:44 PM (#4358396)
I dont hold with any of that "took plays off" "good teammate" blah de blah. Not that its not important in real life, but its not reported accurately.


Reported accurately or not, but as a MN resident I saw much of Mosses peak and he very much took plays off (much more than Rice, and during much of his peak I lived in the California Bay Area).

Of course I might be a biased towards Rice because my brother taught him to swim (as an adult, seriously in Rice's pool), but still I normally agree chemistry and such is overstated - except when you start talking "greatest ever" then I think it can at least be looked at.
   3112. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 30, 2013 at 04:31 PM (#4358453)
a good many players will take plays off in an nfl game. reggie white took off running plays directed away from him each game.

but there is taking off plays where you go at a reasonable pace and effort just in case and there is randy moss lope along half-hearted so obviously that the defense knows you are not in the play

that was moss. he was still a tremendous player. but as a fan it was annoying seeing a guy just jog along hands almost at his sides while a play was happening
   3113. dlf Posted: January 30, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4358481)
One reason that I like baseball is that the numbers tell a story and through those numbers, it is possible for a person like me born in 1967 to have a good feel for Nap Lajoie, Lefty Grove, or Mel Ott. I don't have the same feel for football. Even though I was a fan and watched pretty intently, I have no idea how to compare Randy Moss with James Lofton, let alone players from before my time like Paul Warfield or Lance Alworth. If Dan Fouts was the one throwing to Lofton instead of Lynn Dickey, how good would he have appeared? While baseball has the deadball, segregation, war, drugs, etc. that have changed the tenor, it seems that football has been completely rebuilt time and again making cross generational comparisons so difficult. I raise a glass to those who try to normalize the stats, but the results don't leave me feeling too confident in the approach.
   3114. Gamingboy Posted: January 30, 2013 at 05:12 PM (#4358499)
Thinking of doing a checklist for the Super Bowl. Anybody interested in it?
   3115. Delorians Posted: January 30, 2013 at 05:32 PM (#4358519)
NEW ORLEANS -- Chris Culliver, a second-year cornerback for the 49ers, reportedly made disparaging comments about homosexuality in football during an interview with a radio-show host Tuesday at the Super Bowl's media day.

Culliver told Artie Lange that gay teammates would not be welcome in the locker room, according to quotes posted by Yahoo! Sports.

"I don't do the gay guys man," Culliver said. "I don't do that. No, we don't got no gay people on the team, they gotta get up out of here if they do.

"Can't be with that sweet stuff. Nah ... can't be ... in the locker room man. Nah."

Culliver suggested that homosexual athletes keep their sexuality private until 10 years after they retire.

   3116. Gamingboy Posted: January 30, 2013 at 06:33 PM (#4358572)
NEW ORLEANS -- Chris Culliver, a second-year cornerback for the 49ers, reportedly made disparaging comments about homosexuality in football during an interview with a radio-show host Tuesday at the Super Bowl's media day.

Culliver told Artie Lange that gay teammates would not be welcome in the locker room, according to quotes posted by Yahoo! Sports.

"I don't do the gay guys man," Culliver said. "I don't do that. No, we don't got no gay people on the team, they gotta get up out of here if they do.

"Can't be with that sweet stuff. Nah ... can't be ... in the locker room man. Nah."

Culliver suggested that homosexual athletes keep their sexuality private until 10 years after they retire.


It's bad enough that he said this... but considering that he plays for San Francisco, it makes it even more vile. What a moron.
   3117. Eddo Posted: January 30, 2013 at 06:47 PM (#4358583)
"I don't do the gay guys man," Culliver said.

Note to Chris Culliver: I doubt they want you to.
   3118. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 30, 2013 at 07:14 PM (#4358599)
Thinking of doing a checklist for the Super Bowl. Anybody interested in it?


Will mention by the announcers of Ray Lewis or the Harbaugh Brothers be on it?
   3119. SoSH U at work Posted: January 30, 2013 at 07:39 PM (#4358619)
The 10-year moratorium on coming out is a new twist. I suppose that means you're eligible to wear the yellow blazer five seasons after retiring, but you can't comment on what an offense it is to fashion for another five.
   3120. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 30, 2013 at 07:49 PM (#4358628)
Artie Lange is back?
   3121. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: January 30, 2013 at 08:46 PM (#4358668)
Will mention by the announcers of Ray Lewis or the Harbaugh Brothers be on it?


You're gonna have to set over/unders on that.
   3122. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 30, 2013 at 08:57 PM (#4358673)
i wonder how don hutson would match up in today's game? he was so far ahead of his time one thinks he at least would have a shot to be really good given training methods, etc of today

In 1996, Sports Illustrated's history of the NFL ranked pro football's greatest players across the years, and Hutson was at the top of the list. It shows the difference between football and baseball that a pretty high percentage of baseball fans would still consider Babe Ruth the gold standard, whereas I doubt if 1 in 10 non-Green Bay football fans would even recognize Hutson's name.

BTW Hutson's listed height / weight numbers are 6-1, 183, Jerry Rice's 6-2, 200, not that big a difference. Of course the real difference isn't between the two ends, but between the skill, speed and strength of their defenders.
   3123. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 30, 2013 at 09:01 PM (#4358676)
Thinking of doing a checklist for the Super Bowl. Anybody interested in it?

I'd like to see some predictions vs. the current 3 1/2 point spread that favors the 49ers. I'd take the points, since I can see either team winning a very close game. The one thing I can't see is a blowout.
   3124. Tripon Posted: January 30, 2013 at 09:08 PM (#4358682)
Artie Lange is back?


He never left.
   3125. zenbitz Posted: January 30, 2013 at 11:30 PM (#4358733)
As a San Francisco fan, I can only hope that one of his teammates kisses him deeply on the mouth during the Niners Super Bowl victory celebration.
   3126. zenbitz Posted: January 30, 2013 at 11:51 PM (#4358747)

I think 3.5 points is about right.

By the whole season's points differential and Sos (SRS), the Niners should be -7 or so. The FO number crunchers put it pretty close to a 60-40, which is roughly a -3. AdvancedFootballStats hasn't posted his % yet, but the Niners have a 0.1 EPA/P edge, and I think a 70% chance to win by his model, which is like a 6 point spread. AFS ignores special teams, which to the extent they are predictable, are a big Ravens' edge.

The line opened at -5.

BUT it's clear that Baltimore's OL and defense are playing much better. Not to mention the new OC.
Plus I think Baltimore is actually a bad matchup for SF (assuming their run defense is back near 2011 standards). The Niners losses this this have ALL been to teams that stopped the run.

SO if you believe special teams are 100% random (i..e, Akers has just missed a bunch of coin flips to the left) from game to game, then you should probably take the niners, as they should be favored by 5-6. If you do think the special teams differences will be manifest, then it's a very close call at -3.5, might want to go Ravens with the assumption they are finally healthy.

But bottom line, big brother always wins, right?
   3127. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: January 31, 2013 at 12:38 AM (#4358759)
Rice is clearly better than Moss. A more interesting discussion: Randy Moss or Terrell Owens?

Owens was a problem off the field but he was an amazing player. He went over the middle, could take a hit, run block, run the deep route, and never took plays off.
   3128. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 31, 2013 at 12:54 AM (#4358767)
BUT it's clear that Baltimore's OL and defense are playing much better. Not to mention the new OC. Plus I think Baltimore is actually a bad matchup for SF (assuming their run defense is back near 2011 standards). The Niners losses this this have ALL been to teams that stopped the run.

These teams played in November of 2011 and the Ravens pulled away in the 4th quarter to win by 16 to 6. The Niners averaged just 2.6 yards per run in that game. This time they've got Kaepernick, but in that 2011 game Smith averaged 10.7 yards per completion on 15/24 and no interceptions. I think the line probably gives too much emphasis to Baltimore's mediocre regular season performance, but this is a different team altogether than it was in December----just ask Denver and the Patriots.
   3129. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: January 31, 2013 at 12:55 PM (#4359059)
Rice is clearly better than Moss. A more interesting discussion: Randy Moss or Terrell Owens?


In 1995, the 49ers used the #10 overall pick on JJ Stokes. In 1996, they used a third-rounder on Owens. T.O. was definitely a 'me' guy, but he always came to play.
   3130. Nasty Nate Posted: January 31, 2013 at 01:17 PM (#4359101)
I like the over if I was betting (if o/u stays 47).
   3131. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 31, 2013 at 02:34 PM (#4359259)
I would be interested in a checklist. I have people over (What? A Super Bowl party? Odd I know) so I don't how 'real time' I will be on this site.
   3132. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 31, 2013 at 05:57 PM (#4359531)
Rice is clearly better than Moss. A more interesting discussion: Randy Moss or Terrell Owens?


I thought about this very thing yesterday, but quickly went to ... so Rice is the best (Hutson is too far back for me to timeline at all, sorry), who is second? Moss, Owens, or who are the other contenders?
   3133. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 31, 2013 at 06:21 PM (#4359561)
bitter

a green bay guy from a more recent era for whom i have tremendous admiration in how he played was james lofton.

lofton was an amazing receiver. whole package. fast. strong. great hands. i think his 1983 and 1984 seasons are among the greatest given that every defense knew green bay was going to try and get the ball to lofton and despite all the attention he still averaged over 20 yards a catch and rolled up over 1300 yards total each season.

i don't know where he sits in the pantheon but if you lined up a top 5 list he would be on it for me. easily
   3134. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 31, 2013 at 06:22 PM (#4359563)
lofton's ability to defeat the hand checking/grabbing that was still in place in the late 70's and mid 80's was amazing. he would do this karate chop move on the d backs forearms that you could tell hurt like a bugger
   3135. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 31, 2013 at 06:23 PM (#4359565)
Hutson is too far back for me to timeline at all, sorry

If Hutson's too far back to timeline, then what about Hank Greenberg in baseball? His career (1933-41; 1945-47) began and ended within a year or two of Hutson's (1935-45). And if Hutson's too long ago, what year is your cutoff point for football? Did football only begin with Jim Brown or Walter Payton?
   3136. Tom Nawrocki Posted: January 31, 2013 at 08:21 PM (#4359648)
If Hutson's too far back to timeline, then what about Hank Greenberg in baseball? His career (1933-41; 1945-47) began and ended within a year or two of Hutson's (1935-45).


I don't think that's a valid comparison. The NFL of the 1930s was vastly different from today's NFL, a much bigger difference than that of baseball between the 1930s and now. Most significantly, Hutson played in the two-way era, which means he never had to face defensive backs chosen for their ability to defend the pass. It also means he was forced to play defensive end himself, and who knows how that affected his game.

Also, the NFL of that era was disreputable enough that it's hard to believe they got even half the best potential players. Hutson entered the NFL the year before the draft; in the first year of the draft, only 28 of the 81 players drafted even played in the NFL. The talent level in the NFL at that point was extremely low. They were literally pulling guys off the street. The NFL of the 1930s was more like MLB in the 1880s or even 1870s than it was like MLB of the 1930s.

So I don't think it's possible to do meaingful timelining from that point. We know Hutson was the greatest end of his time, and probably the greatest end of the first 50 years of the NFL. We can't know how he compares in any real way to Jerry Rice or Randy Moss. They played a totally different game.
   3137. DA Baracus Posted: January 31, 2013 at 08:58 PM (#4359680)
Excellent points Tom. One think I think is overlooked is that Hutson's contemporaries came and went in a revolving door, particularly early in his career. I say that not to detract from his career but to enhance it. Of course playing during the war didn't help, but Hutson started well before then and that wasn't the only factor. It wasn't uncommon for players to play for a few years and then coach college teams. For example in 1935, Hutson's rookie year, Tod Goodwin lead the league in receptions, with 26 and was 2nd in TDs as well with 4. He was 24 years old. In 1936 he had 8 catches and 2 TD and he never played again. Gaynell Tinsley led the league in yards in 1937 at age 22 and receptions in 1938, was out of football in 1939, 1940 was his only other season. Don Looney led the league in yards and receptions as a rookie in 1941, he played only two more years. It was a different time.

Jerry Rice is the greatest in part due to career length, but relative to his era Hutson's was ridiculous. An eleven year career in today's game is pretty good, back then it was really something. There were 39 HOFers who played between the 20s and the 40s, and only 8 of them played double digit years.
   3138. zenbitz Posted: January 31, 2013 at 09:17 PM (#4359692)
@3128. The ravens had 9 sacks in that game. I am comfortable saying if they get 9 sacks again they win. The niners also have since replaced chilo rachel with boone, and as a unit the line is much,, much better.

The niners have played some pretty good DLs since then but no one schoolled them like that again.
   3139. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 31, 2013 at 10:29 PM (#4359735)
If Hutson's too far back to timeline, then what about Hank Greenberg in baseball? His career (1933-41; 1945-47) began and ended within a year or two of Hutson's (1935-45). And if Hutson's too long ago, what year is your cutoff point for football? Did football only begin with Jim Brown or Walter Payton?

I see that the consensus between Tom and DA is that Hutson's environment was too radically different from the modern NFL to make any valid comparison. A fair point, with good reasons given for saying that, as long as they're not used simply to discount the possibility that Hutson might have been simply an all-time great who was just ahead of his time, much like Nap Lajoie or other early 20th century baseball greats who never made it into the modern era.

But granting the impossibility of making any meaningful comparisons between Hutson and Rice, or Baugh and Manning, at what point in NFL history do you think we can make timeline comparisons that aren't skewed by dramatically different conditions? How far back do we have to go before the relative lack of black players** becomes statistically significant? At what point do the height and weight differentials disqualify all but the biggest Old School NFL lineman?

Tom raises the good point about how Hutson's two way play might have affected the quality of his offensive game? What would Peyton Manning's passing stats look if he, like Sammy Baugh, had to play defense, and guard Anquan Boldin? At what point can we say with any degree of certainty that stars like Hutson or Baugh or Otto Graham or Jim Brown or Dick Butkus could have moved forward in time and excelled in today's game?

**Quiet as it's kept, the expansion of the talent pool in the NFL over the past 60 years may be even greater than it's been in baseball. Think of all the all-white southern and southwestern college teams, now overwhelmingly black, that didn't integrate until the 70's. Think of of all the northern and western teams that had de facto quotas for black players before that. Think of the exponential explosion in recruitment by all of these colleges, and the money that incentivizes it. The enormous quality difference between today's NFL and the NFL of Jim Brown's era may be largely explained by these simple changes.
   3140. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 31, 2013 at 10:36 PM (#4359740)
@3128. The ravens had 9 sacks in that game. I am comfortable saying if they get 9 sacks again they win. The niners also have since replaced chilo rachel with boone, and as a unit the line is much,, much better.

The niners have played some pretty good DLs since then but no one schooled them like that again.


Not to that extent, but both the Giants (at Candlestick) and the Seahawks (in Seattle) beat the stuffing out of them in this year's regular season. The Niners are a very good team, but they're hardly invulnerable.
   3141. DA Baracus Posted: January 31, 2013 at 10:46 PM (#4359750)
as long as they're not used simply to discount the possibility that Hutson might have been simply an all-time great who was just ahead of his time


Absolutely. Hutson just dominated the league in the second half of his career and in the first half was year in and year out the best at his position. That's greatness.

I don't know if we can ever truly answer your questions though. The game was just so much different. I agree with Tom that the 1920s and 30s of football was like the 1880s or so of baseball. It was played different, it was thought of different, it was treated different. I think anything prior to the AFL, which brought an immediate and significant expansion of talent and money, is murky at best.
   3142. zenbitz Posted: January 31, 2013 at 10:57 PM (#4359757)
>Not to that extent, but both the Giants (at Candlestick) and the Seahawks (in Seattle) beat the stuffing out of them in this year's regular season. The Niners are a very good team, but they're hardly invulnerable.

What part of "it should be a 3ish point spread game" indicates that I think the 49ers are invulnerable? Heck, gun to my head I probably take the points.

However, the Seahawks had only 1 sack of Kaepernick (2 for 2 yards against Smith), and in both games they gave up 313 yards to SF. The asskicking in that game was on the 49ers defense.

The Giants DL did dominate their game, at least pass rushing with 6 sacks. But even 6 != 9.

In both games the Niners managed to eek out 4 yards per carry on the ground. The common theme in both of those games and the tie with the Rams is that the Niners gave up huge yards on the ground. The second ram game was decided by a missed FG in OT by Akers which was set up by a horrible pitch play that went over Ted Ginns head and was scooped up for a score.

I should add that I picked wrong terrible ex-49 Guard. Adam Snyder was replaced by Alex Boone. Chilo was 2010.



   3143. zenbitz Posted: January 31, 2013 at 10:59 PM (#4359759)
AdvancedFootballStats hasn't posted his % yet, but the Niners have a 0.1 EPA/P edge, and I think a 70% chance to win by his model, which is like a 6 point spread. AFS ignores special teams, which to the extent they are predictable, are a big Ravens' edge.


I know no one cares but me, but I think I missed on John Henry-ing this prediction. It came out today at 60-40 Niners, within a point of FootballOutsiders.

Again, both % are "calculated" from the whole season + playoff stats together.
   3144. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 31, 2013 at 11:12 PM (#4359763)
I don't know if we can ever truly answer your questions though. The game was just so much different. I agree with Tom that the 1920s and 30s of football was like the 1880s or so of baseball. It was played different, it was thought of different, it was treated different. I think anything prior to the AFL, which brought an immediate and significant expansion of talent and money, is murky at best.

Your point about the AFL is critical, since it was the AFL that right from the start went after the sort of black talent that the NFL for whatever reason didn't seem to pursue with the same degree of eagerness. But the real explosion in talent came sometime in the late 70's or early 80's, once all the colleges got rid of their racial quota systems and just began recruiting the best players who were out there.

I'm not sure I'd take the baseball comparison quite as far back as the 19th century, but I don't think that comparing the NFL of the 30's to the early 1900s in baseball would be too out of line. In both cases you had a handful of superstars and a few super teams dominating everyone else with impunity.

And although the early (pre-merger) days of pro football were primitive compared to today's game, that doesn't mean that the earlier version wasn't every bit as entertaining or colorful, just like early baseball. If anyone ever wants to read what is undoubtedly and unreservedly the best book on the first 50 years of the NFL (and AAFC and AFL), he should get a hold of Dan Daly's The National Forgotten League: Entertaining Stories and Observations from Pro Football's First Fifty Years. I promise never to do this again, but this book is so goddam good I'm going to quote my own review of it from Amazon:

I've been in love with the NFL since the years that the Detroit Lions ruled the world. In other words, for a very long time. And for sheer entertainment value, The National Forgotten League has got to be right up there on the short list of absolute must-reads about the game as it was before big TV money and saturation marketing took over.

You'll read about the often-sloshed crowds that would occasionally stagger onto the field during the Prohibition years. There are tales of how the Giants would schedule games against prison teams, a practice repeated by the Chicago Bears as late as 1950. We find out how the Hall of Fame QB Dutch Clark didn't show up for the 1932 championship game, because he felt obliged to honor his contract to coach his Colorado College basketball team, whose first practice session was two days before Clark's Portsmouth Spartans met the Chicago Bears for all the marbles---on an 80 yard field laid down in the same Chicago Stadium where Michael Jordan later led the Chicago Bulls to their first three NBA championships.

You'll learn about how the teams that played for NFL championships would often schedule exhibition rematches just weeks later, anything to grab a buck, and how first the Eagles and Steelers and then the Steelers and Cardinals combined their teams during World War II because of the drain of the military draft on NFL rosters. You'll discover the story of Bill Belichick's father Steve, who in a matter of months worked his way up from the Lions' equipment manager to being their leading punt returner. These stories are but the tip of the iceberg, taking the league from the Decatur Staleys and the Oorang Indians all the way up to the merger with the AFL. It's a book that no football fan should be without.
   3145. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 31, 2013 at 11:23 PM (#4359766)
If Hutson's too far back to timeline, then what about Hank Greenberg in baseball? His career (1933-41; 1945-47) began and ended within a year or two of Hutson's (1935-45). And if Hutson's too long ago, what year is your cutoff point for football? Did football only begin with Jim Brown or Walter Payton?


Late (out of touch for a bit), but yeah the others covered it. I mean no disrespect to Hutson, I just have no idea how to compare him to Rice.
   3146. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: February 01, 2013 at 12:09 AM (#4359788)
I dated a girl for a while and her grandmother later married a former Packer that played with Hutson. I dated this girl during Rice's SF hay days, and we'd talk to him about Hutson. He would simply describe him as men against boys, and he didn't mean that in the 'high school footage of Earl Campbell steamrolling kids off the field' sense, but that exactly that Hutson was one of the few true 'professional' football players in the league. Keep in mind, passing offense was extremely unusual during his era, and the Packers were pioneers in this regard. I think he still holds league records for # of seasons leading league in yards, catches, TDs, total scoring, and I'm pretty certain his 29 points in one quarter is still the record.

btw: Hutson played Safety on defense and actually was thought to be pretty good at it, leading the league in INTS at least once if I recall, he was also the kicker most of his seasons, again he was one of the only 'professionals' of his day.
   3147. DA Baracus Posted: February 01, 2013 at 12:22 AM (#4359795)
Yeah the Packers were ahead of their era with their passing. Arnie Herber lead the league in passing yards before Hudson got there, in part because he also lead the league in attempts. But that was because he was an excellent passer for his time. That's why the Packers signed Hutson, they already had the best passer in the game, they wanted a receiver to pair with him. Needless to say he exceeded expectations.
   3148. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: February 01, 2013 at 12:35 AM (#4359800)
Yeah, after Bama, skinny little Don Hutson wasn't thought to be much of a 'footballer' (was that term used?). Outside my native state, I highly doubt most football fans could even place him properly as a receiver for the Packers during the right era, let alone even ID him as the first great receiver in pro football.
   3149. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 01, 2013 at 12:56 AM (#4359804)
Yeah, after Bama, skinny little Don Hutson wasn't thought to be much of a 'footballer' (was that term used?). Outside my native state, I highly doubt most football fans could even place him properly as a receiver for the Packers during the right era, let alone even ID him as the first great receiver in pro football.

The 1934 Alabama team of Hutson's was pretty sporty. Undefeated in 10 games, outscored their opponents by an average of 32 to 5, whupped a previously unbeaten Stanford team in the Rose Bowl, had an All-American tailback (Dixie Howell) and an All-American tackle (Bill Lee), plus Hutson and another end, a skinny little kid named Paul Bryant, later better known as "Bear". Their coach Frank Thomas called it the greatest team he ever had, and given his record, that was quite a compliment.
   3150. boteman is not here 'til October Posted: February 01, 2013 at 06:59 AM (#4359832)
Move over, Gio Gonzalez. South Florida has a new sensational crisis to occupy its attention for the next 15 minutes.

Yes, Gio is a total scumbag now thanks to some scribbles on a paper, but even though Marino's wife knew make no mistake, Marino is a good man. This news changes some things. But not that. He is a good, responsible, civically conscious, locally conspicuous and, yep, obviously flawed man.
   3151. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: February 01, 2013 at 11:33 AM (#4359923)
who is second? Moss, Owens, or who are the other contenders?


I think Tim Brown gets overlooked in these conversations. #5 all-time in receptions and yards, #7 in receiving TD's, despite not becoming a starting receiver until what looks like his fifth season. Prior to that, he was a return specialist and #3 guy. I'd probably take Moss, but Brown never gets mentioned.
   3152. Gamingboy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:23 PM (#4360166)
Checklist being built:
Game called the... Harbaugh Bowl [] Harbowl [ ] Bro Bowl [ ] Any other Harbaugh-related pun or wordplay [ ]
Streaker, Wardrobe Malfunction, or similar nudity [ ]
Commercials: Somebody gets hit in the groin [ ] Cute dog [ ] Chimp [ ] Peyton Manning [ ] Self-referential commercial [ ]
Jay-Z shows up [ ]
Concussions mentioned: Alex Smith's [ ] Anybody else [ ]
Ray Lewis: Cries [ ] Gives speech that makes you want to run through a wall even if you hate him [ ] Evokes God [ ]
Ray Lewis'...: Whole stabbing thing referenced [ ] Deer antler thing referenced [ ]
Mention of the ref controversy [ ]
Mention of any of the LGBT-related stuff that's happened over the past week [ ]
Mention that "billions" of people are watching, even though they aren't [ ]
49er greats mentioned: Montana [ ] Rice [ ] Young [ ] Walsh [ ] Dwight Clark [ ] Ronnie Lott [ ]
Baltimore Colts (or a Baltimore Colts great) referenced [ ]
Turnover in red zone [ ]
Akers misses a field goal [ ]
Michael Phelps appears [ ] (Bonus: Adam Jones appears [ ])

Suggestions?
   3153. DA Baracus Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:29 PM (#4360172)
Intentional sideline shot of Alex Smith after a big play by Kaepernick
   3154. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:41 PM (#4360191)
Suggestions?


-49ers 5-0 in Super Bowls, Ravens 1-0, "something's gotta give"

-Pictures of Ray Lewis from his rookie season/college career

-Randy Moss catches a pass
   3155. Howie Menckel Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:41 PM (#4360194)
mention of 2014 Meadowlands cold-weather Super Bowl
New Orleans: The Big Easy, Crescent City, Hurricane Katrina - all must be mentioned to score here

   3156. DA Baracus Posted: February 01, 2013 at 03:46 PM (#4360197)
mention of 2014 Meadowlands cold-weather Super Bowl


With current weather.
   3157. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:01 PM (#4360221)
Anquan Boldin's possible release after the Super Bowl due to salary cap issues
   3158. DA Baracus Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:16 PM (#4360240)
Anquan Boldin's possible release after the Super Bowl due to salary cap issues


Which then triggers bringing up Trent Dilfer getting released after winning the Super Bowl, without mention that they pointlessly replaced him with Elvis Grbac.
   3159. smileyy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:41 PM (#4360274)
[3150] I think I'm getting your angle. But personally, I'm pretty open to non-traditional relationships. Even ones that usually get heaps of scorn. At some point, there was no "good" choice left to Marino, but it still means that some are a lot better that others. And on the surface, it sounds like he's made the better of those choices.
   3160. smileyy Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:42 PM (#4360276)
[3153] Shot of Alex Smith after Kaepernick throws in INT or fumbles.
   3161. JJ1986 Posted: February 01, 2013 at 04:45 PM (#4360277)
Talk about Flacco's free-agency/contract/insane requests []
   3162. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 01, 2013 at 07:26 PM (#4360414)
Reference to the Moss/Rice GOAT "controversy".
   3163. Tom Nawrocki Posted: February 01, 2013 at 07:31 PM (#4360418)
Reference to guacamole [ ]
   3164. DA Baracus Posted: February 01, 2013 at 07:59 PM (#4360438)
Catfish reference, although I don't think Nantz and Simms would do it. Al Michaels would have been a good bet to.
   3165. zenbitz Posted: February 01, 2013 at 09:32 PM (#4360468)
Mention that Justin and Aldon Smith are not related [ ]
Mention that Aldon Smith hasnt had a sack in 5 games; Aldon get sack within 1 defensive series[ ]
   3166. Tom Nawrocki Posted: February 01, 2013 at 09:52 PM (#4360478)
How many other Super Bowl starting quarterbacks weren't their team's starter at the beginning of the season? Tom Brady, of course, and Jim Plunkett with the Raiders. Anyone else?
   3167. Random Transaction Generator Posted: February 01, 2013 at 10:32 PM (#4360493)
How many other Super Bowl starting quarterbacks weren't their team's starter at the beginning of the season? Tom Brady, of course, and Jim Plunkett with the Raiders. Anyone else?


Jeff Hostetler (NYG) in 1991. Phil Simms got injured late in the season and Hostetler started the final two games and the playoffs.
Doug Williams (WAS) in 1988. Jay Schoeder was the starting QB, got injured in the first game, and then lost his position even when he was healthy later in the season.
   3168. DA Baracus Posted: February 01, 2013 at 10:42 PM (#4360498)
Trent Dilfer in 2000, Tony Banks was benched for sucking.
Vince Ferragamo for the Rams in 1979, Pat Haden had gotten hurt.
Terry Bradshaw in 1974. Joe Gilliam started the year and was benched.

If you want to be really generous, Kurt Warner in 1999.
   3169. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: February 01, 2013 at 11:48 PM (#4360522)
Chris Ault reference [ ]
Footage of C. Kap. running said Ault's pistol at Nevada [ ]
   3170. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: February 01, 2013 at 11:49 PM (#4360524)
Rich Gannon reference as the 'other' Delaware alum to start a SB [ ]
   3171. Jim Wisinski Posted: February 02, 2013 at 03:45 AM (#4360566)
How many other Super Bowl starting quarterbacks weren't their team's starter at the beginning of the season? Tom Brady, of course, and Jim Plunkett with the Raiders. Anyone else?


Jake Delhomme took over for Rodney Peete in the second half of the 2003 season opener.
   3172. Gamingboy Posted: February 03, 2013 at 12:58 PM (#4361066)
Checklist being built:
Game called the... Harbaugh Bowl [] Harbowl [ ] Bro Bowl [ ] Any other Harbaugh-related pun or wordplay [ ]
Streaker, Wardrobe Malfunction, or similar nudity [ ]
Commercials: Somebody gets hit in the groin [ ] Cute dog [ ] Chimp [ ] Peyton Manning [ ] Self-referential commercial [ ]
Jay-Z shows up [ ]
Concussions mentioned: Alex Smith's [ ] Anybody else [ ]
Ray Lewis: Cries [ ] Gives speech that makes you want to run through a wall even if you hate him [ ] Evokes God [ ]
Ray Lewis'...: Whole stabbing thing referenced [ ] Deer antler thing referenced [ ]
Mention of the ref controversy [ ]
Mention of any of the LGBT-related stuff that's happened over the past week [ ]
Mention that "billions" of people are watching, even though they aren't [ ]
49er greats mentioned: Montana [ ] Rice [ ] Young [ ] Walsh [ ] Dwight Clark [ ] Ronnie Lott [ ]
Baltimore Colts (or a Baltimore Colts great) referenced [ ]
Turnover in red zone [ ]
Akers misses a field goal [ ]
Michael Phelps appears [ ] (Bonus: Adam Jones appears [ ])
Both teams undefeated in Super Bowls [ ]
Gucamole referenced (commercials don't count) [ ]
Rich Gannon also went to Delaware [ ]
Mention that 2014 SB will be in Meadowlads [ ]
Big Easy-Crescent City-Hurricane Katrina trifecta [ ]
Alex Smith shown immediately after a Kaepernick play [ ]
Reference to how San Francisco could have both the SB and WS championship [ ]
Flacco free-agency [ ]
Chris Ault referenced [ ] (Kaepernick playing for Ault [ ])
Reference to how Chris Simms was the first guy to shout how he was going to Disney World [ ]
Reference to whatever Obama's pick is [ ]
Footage of Drew Brees and his kid from a few years back [ ]
   3173. Roger McDowell spit on me! Posted: February 03, 2013 at 01:09 PM (#4361080)
Mention of Kaepernick's tattoos [ ]
   3174. Gamingboy Posted: February 03, 2013 at 06:27 PM (#4361319)
Checklist:
Game called the... Harbaugh Bowl [] Harbowl [ ] Bro Bowl [ ] Any other Harbaugh-related pun or wordplay [ ]
Streaker, Wardrobe Malfunction, or similar nudity [ ]
Commercials: Somebody gets hit in the groin [ ] Cute dog [ ] Chimp [ ] Peyton Manning [ ] Self-referential commercial [ ]
Jay-Z shows up [ ]
Concussions mentioned: Alex Smith's [ ] Anybody else [ ]
Ray Lewis: Cries [ ] Gives speech that makes you want to run through a wall even if you hate him [ ] Evokes God [ ]
Ray Lewis'...: Whole stabbing thing referenced [ ] Deer antler thing referenced [ ]
Mention of the ref controversy [ ]
Mention of any of the LGBT-related stuff that's happened over the past week [ ]
Mention that "billions" of people are watching, even though they aren't [ ]
49er greats mentioned: Montana [ ] Rice [ ] Young [ ] Walsh [ ] Dwight Clark [ ] Ronnie Lott [ ]
Baltimore Colts (or a Baltimore Colts great) referenced [ ]
Turnover in red zone [ ]
Akers misses a field goal [ ]
Michael Phelps appears [ ] (Bonus: Adam Jones appears [ ])
Both teams undefeated in Super Bowls [ ]
Gucamole referenced (commercials don't count) [ ]
Rich Gannon also went to Delaware [ ]
Mention that 2014 SB will be in Meadowlads [ ]
Big Easy-Crescent City-Hurricane Katrina trifecta [ ]
Alex Smith shown immediately after a Kaepernick play [ ]
Reference to how San Francisco could have both the SB and WS championship [ ]
Flacco free-agency [ ]
Chris Ault referenced [ ] (Kaepernick playing for Ault [ ])
Reference to how Chris Simms was the first guy to shout how he was going to Disney World [ ]
Reference to whatever Obama's pick is [NOT GOING TO BE DONE, HE DIDN'T GIVE HIS PICK IN INTERVIEW]
Footage of Drew Brees and his kid from a few years back [ ]
Kaepernick Tattoos mentioned [ ]
Ray Lewis' first sack was of Jim Harbaugh [ ]
Mention that the brother-in-law of the Harbaugh Brothers, Tom Crean, is head coach of the Indiana Hoosiers [ ]

Checklist begins at end of national anthem. Come and join the fun!
   3175. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 03, 2013 at 06:32 PM (#4361325)
enjoy the game all
   3176. Greg K Posted: February 03, 2013 at 06:43 PM (#4361329)
It's not quite the same, but wasn't Trent Green supposed to be the Rams QB, but got injured pre-season which allowed Kurt Warner to step in?

Warner started all 16 games so it doesn't quite fit the trivia question, but if I'm recalling it right it's got the spirit of "Super Bowl with a guy who wasn't the planned QB" angle.
   3177. McCoy Posted: February 03, 2013 at 06:44 PM (#4361331)
Got stuck at work today so I'll probably be barely paying attention to the game. In case anyone is wondering about me.
   3178. Gamingboy Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:19 PM (#4361349)
Oh, god, I'm going to cry now from these Sandy Hook kids.
   3179. A Fatty Cow That Need Two Seats Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:20 PM (#4361350)
about damn time someone finally honors america
   3180. Moe Greene Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:26 PM (#4361354)
I think Ray was crying during the anthem. Does that count for the checklist, or is the checklist during-game only?

ETA: Missed the final line of the checklist. Ray gets off on a technicality... again.
   3181. Gamingboy Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:27 PM (#4361355)

I think Ray was crying during the anthem. Does that count for the checklist, or is the checklist during-game only?


Rule of thumb is that it starts at end of anthem.

Edited: Just saw your ETA.
   3182. A Fatty Cow That Need Two Seats Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:29 PM (#4361357)
I think Ray was crying during the anthem. Does that count for the checklist, or is the checklist during-game only?


thought you meant diperna because i'm an idiot. still made sense, though. #rayusa
   3183. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:41 PM (#4361365)
That was fast.
   3184. Gamingboy Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:41 PM (#4361366)
Did not expect that.
   3185. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:42 PM (#4361368)
if someone is toasting taste how can it be budweiser?
   3186. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:43 PM (#4361369)
audi commercial-----------not bad
   3187. Gamingboy Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:43 PM (#4361370)
Okay, so we've gotten a dude getting a black eye, but no groin injuries yet.
   3188. A Fatty Cow That Need Two Seats Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:44 PM (#4361371)
   3189. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:45 PM (#4361372)
go daddy commercial--------------bad
   3190. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Panda. Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:46 PM (#4361373)
Please, not while I'm eating.
   3191. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:46 PM (#4361374)
doritas commercial-------solid

goats are always funny
   3192. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:47 PM (#4361376)
very, very early but ravens winning the line of scrimmage against niners offensive line
   3193. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:50 PM (#4361377)
i am not a fan of suggs of baltimore

he has always struck me as a thug in a football uniform
   3194. Lassus Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:50 PM (#4361378)
I can't believe I missed the Star Spangled Banner. It's one of the only things in this game I'd be able to properly comment on.
   3195. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:51 PM (#4361380)
and now it looks like the niners got their sea legs
   3196. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:51 PM (#4361381)
lassus

very pedestrian

wife is very musical and gave it a grade of 'c'
   3197. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:52 PM (#4361383)
lassus

follow up comment. "very boring."
   3198. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:52 PM (#4361384)
Hw, you're echoing *everything* I'm saying thus far
   3199. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:53 PM (#4361385)
moss wide open
   3200. JJ1986 Posted: February 03, 2013 at 07:53 PM (#4361386)
Someone is going to seriously overpay for Paul Kruger.
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