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Tuesday, November 06, 2012

OT: NFL/NHL thread

i estimate that absolutely noone gives a damn about the NHL, so by folding that thread into this one, we won’t distract from what this thread is really about: boner pills, blood doping (is it low t?), and…jesus christ did mike vick just throw another ####### interception?

steagles Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:03 AM | 8357 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nfl, nhl

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   3601. Howling John Shade Posted: February 03, 2013 at 11:48 PM (#4361840)
I suppose it's appropriate that Ray Lewis wins a superbowl due to a failure of the judicial system ( I kid I kid).
   3602. stanmvp48 Posted: February 03, 2013 at 11:50 PM (#4361841)
Did Lewis tackle anybody?
   3603. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 03, 2013 at 11:50 PM (#4361842)
Can someone explain to me why Super Coach Jim Harbaugh let 30 seconds run off the clock before the two-minute warning, and then burned through a timeout after the two-minute warning, seemingly assuming that he was going to score a touchdown?

It's not second guessing. It just looks really silly to do the above and then basically run out of time two minutes later.

I suppose I can forgive the timeout before the 3rd down play - but not really, because you really need to save your timeouts just in case. You should be ready to roll with these goal line plays.
   3604. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 03, 2013 at 11:51 PM (#4361843)
the ravens offensive line really kept the smiths at bay most of the night. that allowed flacco pick on number 29
   3605. steagles Posted: February 03, 2013 at 11:51 PM (#4361844)
Flacco: "Holy ####. ####### Awesome."
he has a long way to go to catch up to chase utley
   3606. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 03, 2013 at 11:52 PM (#4361845)
stan

yes. lewis had about a half dozen tackles
   3607. Der-K and the statistical werewolves. Posted: February 03, 2013 at 11:53 PM (#4361846)
beats me, ray
   3608. Random Transaction Generator Posted: February 03, 2013 at 11:55 PM (#4361848)
Was Frank Gore injured at the end?
If it's first-and-goal from the five, how do you not give it to him at least ONCE during the next four plays?
   3609. DA Baracus Posted: February 03, 2013 at 11:55 PM (#4361849)
Can someone explain to me why Super Coach Jim Harbaugh let 30 seconds run off the clock before the two-minute warning


John Harbaugh should have stopped the clock. Jim had little reason to. Jim needed to score and if possible use as much time up as they could. John needed as much time as he could get if he got scored on.
   3610. Darren Posted: February 03, 2013 at 11:55 PM (#4361850)
@Ray. Don't you have to assume that that's your chance right there? You're inside the 10. You have to think that there's a much better chance you're going to score and leave the other guys too much time than there is that you'll not score, stop them, and then have another decent chance to score. Plus, he might have thought the refs were going to stick around for the whole game.
   3611. Gamingboy Posted: February 03, 2013 at 11:57 PM (#4361851)
Hey, guess what everyone, not that long until baseball starts!
   3612. Darren Posted: February 03, 2013 at 11:58 PM (#4361853)
If you're going to have do the safety thing, why not snap it to an RB? He can run around and avoid guys better. Maybe not, though.
   3613. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: February 03, 2013 at 11:59 PM (#4361854)
did this guy bring us the crummy airline snack?
   3614. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:01 AM (#4361855)
What I couldn't figure out is why the Niners let the punter dawdle around the end zone for eight seconds, which pretty much meant that it was either run back the free kick for a touchdown or nothing.

Anyway, great game, even if the government tried to throw it to the Niners by conspiring to shut off the power.
   3615. Howling John Shade Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:01 AM (#4361856)
@Ray. Don't you have to assume that that's your chance right there? You're inside the 10. You have to think that there's a much better chance you're going to score and leave the other guys too much time than there is that you'll not score, stop them, and then have another decent chance to score. Plus, he might have thought the refs were going to stick around for the whole game.


Yeah, your best chance of winning the game there (by far) is to score and not leave Baltimore time to kick a field goal. Calling a timeout to preserve time would have been a bad move.
   3616. Howling John Shade Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:02 AM (#4361857)
What I couldn't figure out is why the Niners let the punter dawdle around the end zone for eight seconds, which pretty much meant that it was either run back the kickoff for a touchdown or nothing.


You must have missed the full out tackle on the 49er trying to get to the punter...
   3617. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:04 AM (#4361858)
Anyway, great game, even if the government tried to throw it to the Niners by conspiring to shut off the power.


How silly was it for the announcers to keep talking about momentum, particularly as related to the power outage? And after the game too with Sharpe and Esiason.

Gang, if you get three or four momentum swings during the game, as Sharpe said, then it ain't momentum and there is no such thing.
   3618. Darren Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:05 AM (#4361859)


You must have missed the full out tackle on the 49er trying to get to the punter...


Which, even though I was annoyed with it, was a really good play. They should have held every Niner they could, by the facemask if necessary. If it would have helped they could have lined up offsides and put guys in motion illegally too.
   3619. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:06 AM (#4361860)
   3620. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:07 AM (#4361861)
What I couldn't figure out is why the Niners let the punter dawdle around the end zone for eight seconds, which pretty much meant that it was either run back the kickoff for a touchdown or nothing.


Well, there was some insane holding on that play.
   3621. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:08 AM (#4361862)

Which, even though I was annoyed with it, was a really good play. They should have held every Niner they could, by the facemask if necessary. If it would have helped they could have lined up offsides and put guys in motion illegally too.


Offensive penalty to get the 10 second runoff! Surprised this didn't happen, actually.
   3622. zenbitz Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:09 AM (#4361863)

Contact was not inside 5 yards.


Eh. Theys are touchin' each other in the end zone. But I figure it's one for Sam. They aren't going to call that. I would have like to see a play where Kaepernick has a better scramble option.


Game was basically: Ravens receivers catch everything, Niners recievers don't.
   3623. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:10 AM (#4361864)
For some reason the refs stop calling the game within two minutes. We saw this on the 4th down holding play that Jim H was incensed about and on the blatant holding on the dodge-a-punter.

And we see it on the hail mary plays at the end of games.

Memo to Phil Simms: Just because the refs don't call this stuff doesn't mean it's not a joke.
   3624. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:11 AM (#4361865)
Wait, Harbaugh blew off Tasker! What does Sharpe have to say about this?
   3625. zenbitz Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:12 AM (#4361866)
If it's first-and-goal from the five, how do you not give it to him at least ONCE during the next four plays?
\

No time.
   3626. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:12 AM (#4361867)
Yeah, too many times Kaepernick put the ball right there and it was dropped by receivers.

But thankfully we're done with Ray Lewis, for all practical purposes. What a clown that guy is, with absolutely nothing interesting to say about anything.
   3627. DA Baracus Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:13 AM (#4361868)
How silly was it for the announcers to keep talking about momentum, particularly as related to the power outage?


Not very considering that the 49ers played significantly better after it and the Ravens played worse. I think terms like "momentum" are overrated but it's hard to it didn't have some kind of effect.
   3628. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:13 AM (#4361869)
Which, even though I was annoyed with it, was a really good play. They should have held every Niner they could, by the facemask if necessary. If it would have helped they could have lined up offsides and put guys in motion illegally too.


Offensive penalty to get the 10 second runoff! Surprised this didn't happen, actually.

What's the rule on that, though? I know the game can't end on a penalty in a situation like that, but would they allow any time at all to run off the clock? I'm not 100% sure, but I think that they'd just have penalized the Ravens half the distance to the goal line and then reset the clock back to whatever it was before, either 10 or 12 seconds.
   3629. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:14 AM (#4361870)
Not very considering that the 49ers played significantly better after it and the Ravens played worse. I think terms like "momentum" are overrated but it's hard to it didn't have some kind of effect.


Why? What would cause the effect?
   3630. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:16 AM (#4361871)
Game was basically: Ravens receivers catch everything, Niners recievers don't.

Not really. The Ravens made two key drops in the second half that killed their drives. Both passes were right on the money, too.
   3631. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:18 AM (#4361872)
SF's early 1st qtr flags (both really dumb) were killers.
   3632. stanmvp48 Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:19 AM (#4361874)
Interesting situation: There is no reason not to hold in the end zone if you are trying to take a safety anyway. Unless there is something I don't know about.
   3633. Random Transaction Generator Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:19 AM (#4361876)
If it's first-and-goal from the five, how do you not give it to him at least ONCE during the next four plays?
\

No time.


But that was the point, wasn't it?

They didn't want to score TOO quickly, and they still had two time outs.
If you can't run off 3-4 running plays in 2 minutes with 2 time outs...
   3634. DA Baracus Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:21 AM (#4361877)
Why? What would cause the effect?


Everyone was taken out of their rhythm by the game suddenly stopping for a bizarre reason. Routine was broken, and people respond differently to that.
   3635. Mike A Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:24 AM (#4361878)
Gotta give kudos to the Raven blitz on 4th down with game on the line. That was a ballsy call and forced Kaepernick to heave one up. And I guess they probably figured they're not calling PI on that play.

I do think we need to figure out if we want the game to be called differently with two minutes left. Let them play? Or call it by the book? Right now, 'let them play' is certainly winning out, for better or worse.
   3636. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:24 AM (#4361879)
Everyone was taken out of their rhythm by the game suddenly stopping for a bizarre reason. Routine was broken, and people respond differently to that.


This is simply an unprovable after-the-fact assertion, which is useless.

You'd have done better if you'd said that the break gave the 49ers defenders a chance to rest, or something. That would be a tangible cause. Though it would still not be momentum.
   3637. DA Baracus Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:30 AM (#4361882)
You'd have done better if you'd said that the break gave the 49ers defenders a chance to rest, or something.


Which also can't be proven. You asked why people were talking about momentum and the power outage. They were talking about it because it was the point where the 49ers started playing better. You can draw your own conclusions why.
   3638. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:32 AM (#4361883)
Ray Lewis: "Sal, I tell you, man, when you believe in what you believe in, no matter what happens, no matter what people believe, the ultimate is the ultimate, and this is the ultimate."

Geez, was Crissy Snow not available for post game quotes?
   3639. steagles Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:32 AM (#4361884)
You'd have done better if you'd said that the break gave the 49ers defenders a chance to rest, or something. That would be a tangible cause. Though it would still not be momentum.
how about that the break allowed san francisco to circle the wagons at a moment where they were in grave danger of letting the game completely get away.

oh, and also, that because of halftime and the kick return TD and the blackout, the baltimore offense went damn near an hour and a half without running a play, and it took them a while to get back into the flow of the game.
   3640. Poulanc Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:33 AM (#4361885)
I don't have much to add to what has been said already, but I don't understand why coaches continue to burn timeouts late in games to save themselves from a delay of game. The timeout is more valuable than the five yards, right? 3rd and goal from the 5 or 3rd and goal from the 10, it isn't much of a difference. But that extra timeout is huge.
   3641. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:34 AM (#4361886)
SF's early 1st qtr flags (both really dumb) were killers.

It sure helped put them in a quick hole, but the truth is that both teams made enough bad plays and got enough breaks that it's impossible to play the "what if" game without recognizing that it cuts both ways. If the Niners had pulled it out, the Ravens could've lamented Rice's fumble, those two key dropped passes, a couple of (well deserved) critical penalties, the failure to convert twice within the red zone, and a badly shanked punt. Those plays are no less real because they didn't flip the final result. It was a terrific game in terms of drama and excitement, but neither team was nearly at its best.
   3642. DA Baracus Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:36 AM (#4361888)
I don't have much to add to what has been said already, but I don't understand why coaches continue to burn timeouts late in games to save themselves from a delay of game. The timeout is more valuable than the five yards, right? 3rd and goal from the 5 or 3rd and goal from the 10, it isn't much of a difference. But that extra timeout is huge.


Agreed. The delay of game, if they weren't going to hand it off, wouldn't have necessarily hurt them much. The field was extremely compressed with the ball inside the 5, the penalty would have opened the field up for passing.
   3643. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:38 AM (#4361889)
Geez, was Crissy Snow not available for post game quotes?

Ray, when you win, you can say any ####### thing you want. There isn't a sports team on Earth without a roster full of Christian psychobabblers who can drive any sane person crazy if they're insane enough to listen to him. There's a very good reason to wait till the opening kickoff to turn on the sound, and to turn off the TV once the final gun has sounded, and to hit the pause button during commercials when you're recording the game.
   3644. Kurt Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:43 AM (#4361890)
Offensive penalty to get the 10 second runoff! Surprised this didn't happen, actually.

I don't know about this, but the penalty for holding in the end zone is a safety. So Darren is right - the Ravens should have done *everything* in their power to keep the defense away from the punter for as long as possible.
   3645. stanmvp48 Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:44 AM (#4361891)
I also try not to listen; but I have to say there is one difference between Ray Lewis and most Christian psychobabblers.
   3646. SoSH U at work Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:44 AM (#4361892)
I don't have much to add to what has been said already, but I don't understand why coaches continue to burn timeouts late in games to save themselves from a delay of game. The timeout is more valuable than the five yards, right? 3rd and goal from the 5 or 3rd and goal from the 10, it isn't much of a difference. But that extra timeout is huge.


I don't think so. Once the Niners failed to score, they would have loved to have it back. But it's still just the difference between 45 seconds left and no TO and four seconds left and no TO. Neither are very promising situations. Inside the 10 was their best chance. I wouldn't squander it to save a TO (though ordinarily, I agree with the idea of not trading a TO to save five yards).

And I thought the non-call was fine. He initiated contact within 5 yards, and contact was maintained for the next two. Had he initiated contact later, or re-engaged, it would be flag-worthy. But continuous contact is generally, though not always, allowed.

   3647. DA Baracus Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:46 AM (#4361893)
I also try not to listen; but I have to say there is one difference between Ray Lewis and most Christian psychobabblers.


Ray Lewis does have two Super Bowl rings...
   3648. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:47 AM (#4361894)
I don't have much to add to what has been said already, but I don't understand why coaches continue to burn timeouts late in games to save themselves from a delay of game. The timeout is more valuable than the five yards, right? 3rd and goal from the 5 or 3rd and goal from the 10, it isn't much of a difference. But that extra timeout is huge.


Yes, yes, yes. All three timeouts should be saved for the end of the game, almost without exception. I suppose I could see a need to take one on a big third down play - as Jim H did tonight - but that in itself indicates a breakdown in coaching to me.
   3649. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:48 AM (#4361895)
I also try not to listen; but I have to say there is one difference between Ray Lewis and most Christian psychobabblers.

True, but there's nothing that compels anyone to listen to any of them, and he's hardly the only jock with a criminal past who does the Jesus bit. Avoiding their babble completely is one of the things that makes sporting events infinitely more enjoyable.

Of course masochists might beg to differ, but that's another story.
   3650. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:49 AM (#4361896)
Geez, was Crissy Snow not available for post game quotes?
Not familiar with your average post-game comments, I see.
   3651. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:51 AM (#4361898)
Ray Lewis does have two Super Bowl rings...

And he's the only player to have played in the only Super Bowls that the Giants and 49ers have lost. Not even the great Trent Dilfer can say that.
   3652. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:51 AM (#4361900)
Where was god the other 15 seasons of his career? Did god just give him a big up-yours in those seasons?

Some Jim Gray type should just stop these guys and be like, wtf are you talking about, this makes no sense.
   3653. Howie Menckel Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:11 AM (#4361908)

I was the guy here who ####### about the Falcons timeout early in the 3rd quarter of the NFC title game, how it might come back to bite them - and it did.

So what did the 49ers learn from that? Nothing - they had their own preposterous, 5-yard-penalty-avoiding 3rd quarter timeout tonight.

The second timeout, near the end, with a shot to score the go-ahead TD - reasonable people can differ, although obviously they then lost a slim chance on a last possession without that extra timeout. But there's little point in debating a plausible choice when an absurd one is there for the criticizing.

NEVER call a 3rd-quarter timeout to avoid a 5-yard penalty when you are outside of 5 or so yards from scoring a TD. We can debate calling it on certain down/yardage spots in that area as well, but we keep seeing QBs/coaches not willing to accept spots like going from 3rd and 6 at the 40 to 3rd and 11 at the 45, which is absurd.
   3654. DA Baracus Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:49 AM (#4361918)
So what did the 49ers learn from that? Nothing


Of course not, they won that game. There was no impetus for the 49ers to change.
   3655. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 02:08 AM (#4361928)
It seems odd to say that NFL coaches/players don't understand the value of timeouts, but they clearly do not.
   3656. cmd600 Posted: February 04, 2013 at 02:12 AM (#4361930)
Ray - its not odd at all. Time management is clearly low on the list of necessary skills for a coach.

Not saying this to be snarky in any way. But enough coaches are hired that know less about clock management than a 13 year old with a madden game that it clearly is not a priority
   3657. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2013 at 02:16 AM (#4361931)
NEVER call a 3rd-quarter timeout to avoid a 5-yard penalty when you are outside of 5 or so yards from scoring a TD. We can debate calling it on certain down/yardage spots in that area as well, but we keep seeing QBs/coaches not willing to accept spots like going from 3rd and 6 at the 40 to 3rd and 11 at the 45, which is absurd.

The Bears drive me nuts with this all the time. Recently the Bears have had problems getting the call in on time and it has forced Cutler to burn a timeout or two to avoid the delay and it drives me nuts when they do it. You really need to call a timeout on 2nd and 10 at your 27 in the second quarter? Why?
   3658. Guapo Posted: February 04, 2013 at 02:34 AM (#4361934)
You're assuming Harbaugh called time out to save the delay of game penalty. He may have called it because his QB looked completely lost as he tried to set up the play and he didn't want him to piss away one of his two chances to win the game. (I thought SF's play calling once they got to the 5 was terrible, though.)
   3659. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: February 04, 2013 at 02:35 AM (#4361935)
Some thoughts as a Niner fan:

1) I think that was a defensive holding against Crabtree on 4th down. It's hard for me to complain because Bowman might have held on the last play against the Falcons.

2) I can't believe the Niners didn't run the ball on one of those first two plays with first and goal. I give that ball to Frank Gore at least once during that series. You have a hard runner and a big offensive line. That's the biggest thing I will think about for the rest of the offseason.

3) I find it surprising that Ray is using tonight's game as evidence against the idea of momentum in sports because I thought the exact opposite.

4) I am pretty happy with the way Kaepernick played in the game. I generally felt that the Niners were able to move the ball pretty well. I wish he would have run the ball a little more but that's nitpicking.

5) I think the Niners are in good shape for the next season. They need a true number two receiver to be a great offense. They basically redshirted AJ Jenkins this year and it'll be interesting to see if they believe in him as much as they say they do. I think they need a true shutdown corner to be a great defense so they'll obviously be interested in Revis. They need to address the kicking game.

   3660. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 02:44 AM (#4361938)
If there's a way to check this, anecdotally I recall that the Rams during the Warner years would routinely take the 5-yard delay of game penalty rather than burn a timeout. I forget if it was with Vermeil as the coach, or Martz, or both. I think Martz.

But I specifically recall a MNF game where they did this, and Michaels said "And the Rams have been doing this for years..."
   3661. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 04, 2013 at 09:07 AM (#4361967)
Some thoughts as a Niner fan:

Some thoughts as a Ravens fan:

1. I thought that this was going to be a tight game all the way, since the Ravens were (finally) at full strength and the Niners' weaknesses had been exposed by several teams during the year, most notably the Giants, Seahawks and Patriots (in the second half). OTOH Kaepernick was an X-factor, since the Ravens hadn't faced any QB other than Griffin with his combination of arm strength and mobility skills, and Kaepernick is bigger, stronger and healthier than Griffin.

2. If people haven't figured out by now that Flacco is a lot more than an "average" quarterback, they probably never will. "Average" quarterbacks don't perform as consistently and as well as Flacco has done in the postseason. This wasn't the first time he's stepped up in an elimination game, and it's getting to be a pretty large "sample size", wouldn't you think?

3. I don't know whether I'd call it "momentum" or not, but the power outage gave the 49ers a chance to regroup. Maybe their turnaround was a pure coincidence, but color me skeptical about that.

4. Going forward, the 49ers look set for years, and if they played the Ravens next week or next year, I think they'd win. The Ravens's defense is old and slow, and the 49ers exploited that once they got settled. Whatever you think of Lewis as a man, he's going to leave an enormous hole to fill in his position.

5. I can't really root against the 49ers, but damn, I'm glad to see a total blue collar team from a blue collar city other than Pittsburgh win it all. The 2001 champs were dominant in a way that this team wasn't, but it was sure a lot more fun watching Flacco at work than it was crossing my fingers with Trent Dilfer.





   3662. BDC Posted: February 04, 2013 at 09:18 AM (#4361969)
Where was god the other 15 seasons of his career?

Obligatory.
   3663. JJ1986 Posted: February 04, 2013 at 09:25 AM (#4361973)
You're assuming Harbaugh called time out to save the delay of game penalty. He may have called it because his QB looked completely lost as he tried to set up the play and he didn't want him to piss away one of his two chances to win the game.


Harbaugh didn't call the timeout. He was pissed that it was called.
   3664. bunyon Posted: February 04, 2013 at 09:52 AM (#4361983)
You're assuming Harbaugh called time out to save the delay of game penalty. He may have called it because his QB looked completely lost as he tried to set up the play and he didn't want him to piss away one of his two chances to win the game. (I thought SF's play calling once they got to the 5 was terrible, though.)

I assume this is about the TO on the final set of 49er downs - Harbaugh did call that one, I think.

It was a logical disconnect. The TO is a good one if you're approach is to run the ball from the 5. Running from the 5 and running from the 10 are very different.

However, if your plan is to pass 4 times, take the penalty. Hell, maybe take another 5 yarder. As stated several times above, not running once in that last set of downs is bewildering. Frank Gore four times straight up the middle probably has a better chance than what they did. Given that the 49ers seemed able to run at will after the blackout, they should simply have run 4 times. Yug.
   3665. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: February 04, 2013 at 10:08 AM (#4361990)
As stated several times above, not running once in that last set of downs is bewildering.


And the third and fourth down plays weren't great calls. Rollouts near the goal line rarely work, and with a guy as fast as Colin, a dropback gives him a better opportunity to scramble. I haven't watched the 49ers a ton, but I haven't seen Kaepernick complete any of those fade throws--it sure doesn't seem like his strength.
   3666. The District Attorney Posted: February 04, 2013 at 10:47 AM (#4362016)
   3667. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 04, 2013 at 10:53 AM (#4362023)
i am confused why folks are saying there were no runs

here is the goal line play calling courtesy of espn.com

1st and 7 at BAL 7 (Shotgun) L.James right guard to BLT 5 for 2 yards (D.Ellerbe; D.Tyson).
2nd and 5 at BAL 5 (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short right to M.Crabtree (C.Graham).
Timeout #2 by SF at 01:55.
3rd and 5 at BAL 5 C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short right to M.Crabtree (J.Smith).
4th and 5 at BAL 5 (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short right to M.Crabtree.
   3668. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 04, 2013 at 10:57 AM (#4362028)
by the way, baltimore had blitzed on a previous san fran trip down near the goal line to force the qb to make a quick decision.

i think it was reasonable for san fran coaches to expect the same on the 4th down. i know i called it before it happened and i am no svengali

it's the obvious defensive call if you are certain there is no run, you trust your blitzer to not lose contain and you are asking your corners to hold up for 2 seconds. that fit baltimore perfectly. they knew wiht 5 yards there was almost certainly no running play, they believe more in ed reed than anyone and their corners grabbed jerseys to give ed the time he needed.
   3669. BDC Posted: February 04, 2013 at 11:04 AM (#4362035)
Timeouts in football rarely make much sense to me. When I was a kid and comic books cost a dime, it seemed like timeouts were to be hoarded for the last two minutes in case you were behind and needed to advance quickly. Now they seem to be called as part of a weird game-theory exercise, often by the team you'd figure wouldn't call them: or, as several here have noted, squandered early in halves for little advantage. I suppose the rules allow so many other ways to stop the clock nowadays that actual timeouts are not that precious a resource. Was it in the NFC title game (or was I foggily not paying attention again) when the Falcons called a timeout at a wholly random moment in the middle of the third quarter because they saw a couple of new 49er defenders on the field and weren't sure what was going on? and the announcers said, "Yes, they were forced to call timeout there" as if we all understood why. Years ago, if Bob Griese saw a couple of defenders he didn't recognize, he'd just hand off to Larry Csonka up the middle like was going to do all along anyway, the hell with timeouts.

Now, off my lawn!
   3670. SoSH U at work Posted: February 04, 2013 at 11:16 AM (#4362048)
However, if your plan is to pass 4 times, take the penalty. Hell, maybe take another 5 yarder.


I know this is conventional wisdom, but I'd really like to see the numbers on this. Is it really easier to score a throwing TD from the 10 than the 5 (it might be, but this gets said a lot but I've never seen anything definitive)?

Regardless, when you've got a QB who can turn a pass play into a run like SF does, I'd still rather be on the 5. Curious the Niners didn't call a play where that was a possibility.

   3671. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 04, 2013 at 11:20 AM (#4362049)
Totally off topic, what's with Peyton Manning's shouting out "Hurry, hurry!" during every countdown before the snap? I've never heard any other quarterback do that, or is it just that he's the only quarterback who's wired for sound?
   3672. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 04, 2013 at 11:24 AM (#4362053)
andy

he's annoying?
   3673. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 04, 2013 at 11:33 AM (#4362063)
Works for me, Harv. At first I thought he was just trying to throw off the defense's timing, but after the 50th or so time it kind of sunk in to me that that wasn't it.
   3674. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: February 04, 2013 at 11:52 AM (#4362092)
Works for me, Harv. At first I thought he was just trying to throw off the defense's timing, but after the 50th or so time it kind of sunk in to me that that wasn't it.
Pretty sure Manning is known as a "talker." He's always saying something, in the huddle, on the field, at the line, etc. It's just the thing that "works" for him psychologically, I'm guessing -- it keeps him focused, in a groove, feeling like he's connected to his receiving corp and O-line. He's usually not relaying information to his teammates, I can tell you that much (from listening to him when he's been wired for sound). It's more like the equivalent of Monica Seles' racket-swinging grunts.

Great thoughts here from Andy, Harv, Russlan et al.
   3675. Howie Menckel Posted: February 04, 2013 at 11:56 AM (#4362098)
just catching up on the postgame stuff.
Wow, I wonder if they gave the 49ers coach a trophy for Biggest Loser.
Two weeks after his team wins in large part on a non-call on 4th down (which I had no problem with), he whines like a ##### about not getting the same call for HIS team (which I wouldn't have called, either).

talk about myopic. Didn't have any firm opinion on the 49ers before (noticed that this coach was a jackass, but it hadn't reached a critical mass), but now I think it's delicious that their coach is absorbing a second consecutive gut-wrencher end to a season. Looking forward now to seeing it happen again next year.

I take it no media member asked him to compare the two plays?

   3676. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:05 PM (#4362114)
talk about myopic. Didn't have any firm opinion on the 49ers before (noticed that this coach was a jackass, but it hadn't reached a critical mass), but now I think it's delicious that their coach is absorbing a second consecutive gut-wrencher end to a season. Looking forward now to seeing it happen again next year.


as Michigan fans know all-too-well, Harbaugh is a hell of a coach, but a total ####.
   3677. Nasty Nate Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:07 PM (#4362117)
I haven't watched a replay, but on the would-be-punt/safety, were the 49ers actually running a punt-block play? Watching it live, I thought they ran a 'punt runback' play and I was baffled. I think you have to try for the miracle punt-block for the win or at least you get in there and prevent the punter from prancing around the endzone for 8 seconds if they are taking the safety. Maybe they did run the punt-block and it was just picked up. Also, on the free kick, why did the returner go down with the ball? Don't you have to pitch it in that situation?
   3678. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:19 PM (#4362126)
Just to cement my earlier point about Flacco's recent playoff performances, here's what he's done over the past 3 years:

2011 (2 games) - overall QB rating 90.0
Opponents: at Kansas City (10-6); at Pittsburgh (12-4)

2012 (2 games) - overall QB rating 96.1
Opponents: vs. Houston (10-6); at New England (13-3)

2013 (4 games) - overall QB rating 117.2
Opponents: vs. Indianapolis (11-5); at Denver (13-3); at New England (12-4); vs San Francisco (11-4-1)

Total: 2 home games, 5 road games, and one neutral site. The Ravens were underdogs in 5 of those 8 games. I'd like to know how some of the more elite quarterbacks stack up against that record.
   3679. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:19 PM (#4362127)
2. If people haven't figured out by now that Flacco is a lot more than an "average" quarterback, they probably never will. "Average" quarterbacks don't perform as consistently and as well as Flacco has done in the postseason. This wasn't the first time he's stepped up in an elimination game, and it's getting to be a pretty large "sample size", wouldn't you think?


Andy, I would go to war with Flacco. I love how he (with the permission of Harbaugh) throws deep, and throws deep, and throws deep, and then throws deep again. He is constantly looking to take shots downfield, which I love. And he has the range on his arm, although his deep ball appears a bit balloon-y to me like a Marc Wilson in Super Tecmo Bowl. I don't think Flacco is a great quarterback, but he's better than average, yes. So I agree with you there. But...

3. I don't know whether I'd call it "momentum" or not, but the power outage gave the 49ers a chance to regroup. Maybe their turnaround was a pure coincidence, but color me skeptical about that.


...You're off base here. The idea that two evenly matched teams would go through stretches where one outscores the other is not at all surprising. It is not momentum. It is football. Sometimes the two teams don't score much; sometimes they alternate scores; sometimes one scores more than the other. What else would we expect to happen?
   3680. DA Baracus Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:22 PM (#4362130)
Really, on this site we're using passer rating and opponent's record in 8 games to validate the play of an individual? This is "pitch to the score" level of analysis.
   3681. bunyon Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:24 PM (#4362131)
here is the goal line play calling courtesy of espn.com

1st and 7 at BAL 7 (Shotgun) L.James right guard to BLT 5 for 2 yards (D.Ellerbe; D.Tyson).
2nd and 5 at BAL 5 (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short right to M.Crabtree (C.Graham).
Timeout #2 by SF at 01:55.
3rd and 5 at BAL 5 C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short right to M.Crabtree (J.Smith).
4th and 5 at BAL 5 (Shotgun) C.Kaepernick pass incomplete short right to M.Crabtree.


Huh. I honestly don't remember the 1st down play.

I guess I don't keep my head in clutch situations.

   3682. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:26 PM (#4362135)
From Joe Sheehan's newsletter, on the silliness of "momentum," with which I concur in full:

...The game resumed with the 49ers in a third-and-14 spot at their own 40-yard line. Colin Kaepernick was chased and completed a short pass to Delanie Walker well short of the marker. Down 28-6, facing fourth-and-seven from their own 46, the Niners elected to punt, a pretty bad decision that went largely unnoticed. Andy Lee punted the ball into the end zone, and the Ravens took over at their own 20. Joe Flacco immediately completed a pass to Torrey Smith for a first down.

Full stop.

At this point, both teams' units have been on the field since the delay. The Niners offense ran a give-up play, their punter managed to miss the red zone from his own 30 or so, and their defense allowed an immediate first down. The aftermath of the blackout delay was that the game was going exactly as it had gone from the opening kickoff. Even if momentum existed the way the entire sports-media community insists that it does, it had not moved following the blackout delay.

...

I find the "momentum" discussion painful because it diminishes the game and the athletes who play it. The desperate need to find reasons for everything that happens and to assign meaning to small streaks of events is disrespectful to the talented men on the field.
   3683. McCoy Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:26 PM (#4362136)
Take a look at Kurt Warner. For his career he played 13 postseason games and had a QB rating of 103.
   3684. SoSH U at work Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:39 PM (#4362150)
Take a look at Kurt Warner. For his career he played 13 postseason games and had a QB rating of 103.


The quirk I like about Warner's numbers: Every time he started all 16 games in a season, his team went to the Super Bowl.
   3685. zenbitz Posted: February 04, 2013 at 12:56 PM (#4362166)
Flacco played lights out. Niners pass rush has been an almost non factor since the 4th q of patriots game. Injuries aside i think they will have to move to a rotation on the olb/de next year. Not that many guys can play every snap for 16+ games.

They might make a move for Revis, too.

Where were the niners safeties in this game? Getting beat and not hitting.
   3686. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:00 PM (#4362172)
3. I don't know whether I'd call it "momentum" or not, but the power outage gave the 49ers a chance to regroup. Maybe their turnaround was a pure coincidence, but color me skeptical about that.

...You're off base here. The idea that two evenly matched teams would go through stretches where one outscores the other is not at all surprising. It is not momentum. It is football. Sometimes the two teams don't score much; sometimes they alternate scores; sometimes one scores more than the other. What else would we expect to happen?


Looking at Sheehan's recap and then looking at the sequence that immediately followed, I'll back off on my skepticism. What happened after Sheehan left off was a miscommunication between Flacco and Boldin that would've been a first down, and then a completion to Rice that came up just short and forced a punt. After that, Kaepernick settled down and showed the same kind of stuff he'd shown in the two previous playoff games, aided by Rice's fumble that let the Niners get right back in the game. So yeah, I don't think that the power outage had much to do with anything, other than its being a slightly delayed coincidence. It certainly didn't cause Ray Rice to fumble.

-----------------------------------------------------

Really, on this site we're using passer rating and opponent's record in 8 games to validate the play of an individual? This is "pitch to the score" level of analysis.

Except that those "8 games" are about as un-random a selection as you can imagine, and what the hell does "pitching to the score" have to do with it?

I'm not trying to compare Flacco's regular season stats to more consistent QBs like Peyton Manning or Brady, but when over three years worth of postseason games he's outplayed every elite quarterback he's faced, to me that says a lot more about his performance than a pitcher "pitching to the score" in a bunch of 6 to 5 games.
   3687. JJ1986 Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:05 PM (#4362179)
he's outplayed every elite quarterback he's faced


That's Brady twice (and the defensive disparity between the two teams is huge) and Manning once. He got thoroughly outplayed by B-Ro (who was still elite then).
   3688. stanmvp48 Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:12 PM (#4362191)
Even Sims didn't buy the cause effect relationship between the power outage and the 49ers comeback. Nantz did. I thought they were going to come to blows.

Some quibbles about the coverage, aside from the typical uselessness of these two.

Did they not have a good angle of the line of scrimmage on the two point conversion. They suggested that Reed was offside but only the down the line shot would have shown it. They have 62 cameras, I understand.

Don't they have a camera which would have shown if Akers missed field goal was good or not (the one on which running into the kicker was called)

Did it not occur to anyone that the 49ers could have then gone for fourth and two instead of retrying the field goal.

On the fight which resulted, as fights always do, in offsetting penalties; they not only missed the issue of the Raven player shoving the ref, they didn't replay the fight itself. I am fairly sure two Ravens were pounding someone on the ground and I do not think the intentional roughness was equal. But I couldn't tell for sure.
   3689. DA Baracus Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:13 PM (#4362193)
and what the hell does "pitching to the score" have to do with it?


Because it's the same rudimentary way to analyse a player. Similar things were said about Mark Sanchez after "he beat" Manning and Brady.
   3690. SoSH U at work Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:18 PM (#4362200)
Don't they have a camera which would have shown if Akers missed field goal was good or not (the one on which running into the kicker was called)


I thought that was a terrible call (though understandable). He started to fall over the Raven defender before he was touched.

   3691. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:20 PM (#4362204)
Did it not occur to anyone that the 49ers could have then gone for fourth and two instead of retrying the field goal.


It occurred to me. But, then, I pretty much always want to go on 4th down :-)

Though it doesn't apply here because it was a FG attempt, I generally subscribe to Sheehan's other statement: "...but cowardly punting is the way the big, strong manly football of the NFL is played."
   3692. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:22 PM (#4362207)
DA, allow me: Andy is a Yankees fan. As such, he thinks what he saw from 1996-2000 in the playoffs was something more than just "good team gets lucky 4 times in 5 years."

And that has informed his view here. He thinks the postseason is Magic. Arod is a Choker. Jeter is a Clutch Postseason Gift Basket God. Etc.
   3693. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:24 PM (#4362209)
You're right about Roethlisberger, although if you're going to compare defenses, the gap between the Steelers and the Ravens that year was considerably bigger than this year's gap between the Ravens and the Patriots. And the Broncos defense this year was far better than the Ravens according to the numbers.

Bottom line is that while Flacco hasn't yet displayed the overall regular season consistency of an elite QB---the numbers don't lie---he's more than performed on that level in his last three postseasons, against the best teams the league has had to offer. He's led his team to one championship, and only a dropped pass in the final minute in 2012 stopped him from being able to compete for another one. I'm not sure why anyone would feel the need to nitpick that assessment, but then I'm not a mindreader.
   3694. Ray (RDP) Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:26 PM (#4362212)
Do any of the scout-y people here agree with my assessment that Flacco's deep ball goes too high in the air? Not that it isn't effective as he can drop it in more.
   3695. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:28 PM (#4362216)
DA, allow me: Andy is a Yankees fan. As such, he thinks what he saw from 1996-2000 in the playoffs was something more than just "good team gets lucky 4 times in 5 years."

And that has informed his view here. He thinks the postseason is Magic.


Ray, you just said yourself that you'd "go to war with Flacco." And since I'm not putting him in the class of Peyton or Brady in the regular season, I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, unless it's that you'd go to war with a lucky QB.

As for the World Series, you can dwell on the luck factor if you'd like. I tend to value the results more than the excuses, win or lose.
   3696. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:32 PM (#4362221)
and what the hell does "pitching to the score" have to do with it?

Because it's the same rudimentary way to analyse a player. Similar things were said about Mark Sanchez after "he beat" Manning and Brady.


Again, what does "pitching to the score" in a 6-5 baseball game have to do with the level of QB ratings that Flacco's had in the past three postseasons? If the Ravens had won a bunch of 10 to 7 games to win the Super Bowl I wouldn't be talking about Flacco.
   3697. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:33 PM (#4362227)
Do any of the scout-y people here agree with my assessment that Flacco's deep ball goes too high in the air? Not that it isn't effective as he can drop it in more.
I'm no scout-y person when it comes to football (hell, I barely understand half the penalties and how & when they're enforced), but I've been saying this to anyone in the room with me at the time when Flacco throws. His deep passes look UGLY off his arm: wobbling trebuchet-lobs that just seem like they're destined to land in the arms of an opposing player because they look like they're up there for too long, with such height that it allows defenders to track and get underneath them.

And yet the guy didn't throw a single INT during the entire postseason, with tons of long bombs, so what do I know? Flacco and Harbaugh quite obviously know something (lots of things, really) I don't.
   3698. JJ1986 Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:35 PM (#4362228)
I'm not sure why anyone would feel the need to nitpick that assessment, but then I'm not a mindreader.


Because the implication is the Flacco has some innate ability to perform better in the postseason. Anyone would grant that a. Flacco has the ability to have great games and b. his last six playoff games (I think including 2011 doesn't boost his case) have been great games. The difference is whether you think that's because it's the postseason or you think it's a combination of a hot streak and luck.

If the Denver safety hadn't been an idiot no one thinks Flacco's an elite playoff QB.
   3699. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:36 PM (#4362229)
i am pretty sure i mentioned this elsewhere but flacco is a solid quarterback who got on a hot streak. they don't talk about guys getting 'hot' in football like in baseball or basketball. why i have no idea

of course now the new buzz phrase in sports faux stats circles is 'the wyatt earp' effect.

as someone who earned his masters in stats many moons ago though glad that real stat work has taken hold seeing it discussed by folks with only a superficial understanding such as barnwell or neyer grates at times. they are just blabbing back something they heard and then slapping it on a situation to look informed.

thus concludes harvey's snobbish discourse of the day. but i wanted to get that off my chest
   3700. DA Baracus Posted: February 04, 2013 at 01:38 PM (#4362232)
Again, what does "pitching to the score" in a 6-5 baseball game have to do with the level of QB ratings that Flacco's had in the past three postseasons?


Because passer rating is a junk measurement too. Flacco has played well in the playoffs, I don't think anyone doubts this. But you are arguing as if you are saying that he is an elite QB and has some kind of ability to make himself elite in the post-season despite being thoroughly mediocre in the regular season for his entire career.
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