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Tuesday, November 06, 2012

OT: NFL/NHL thread

i estimate that absolutely noone gives a damn about the NHL, so by folding that thread into this one, we won’t distract from what this thread is really about: boner pills, blood doping (is it low t?), and…jesus christ did mike vick just throw another ####### interception?

steagles Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:03 AM | 8370 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nfl, nhl

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   4301. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 21, 2013 at 04:30 PM (#4604046)
I was going to let this go, but since angry dave h is back , what the hell.*


I actually thought you had let it go because your position, equipped with all of its unsupported certainties and comments about physical impossibilities of Gronk getting "anywhere near" the DB, was so absurd.

But I like how you call him "angry dave" because he disagreed with you, and, frankly, outclassed you, in the discussion.



   4302. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 21, 2013 at 04:46 PM (#4604060)
But I like how you call him "angry dave" because he disagreed with you, and, frankly, outclassed you, in the discussion.


Actually, it was Post 4290, when he said I lied and then made the bizarre comment about my feelings on the NFL rulebook. Plus some other stuff.

But your explanation is characteristically imbecilic. So there's that.
   4303. dave h Posted: November 21, 2013 at 05:53 PM (#4604114)
You made a statement that was demonstratably false either with a cursory check of the internet, or by reading a post higher up on the same page. At best you made it up without checking, hoping to advance your argument. At worst you knew the opposite was true, and said it anyway. Even in the former case I'd call it lying.

And it came after this gem from you: "Had the contact with Kuechly never taken place, Gronkowski would not have caught the ball. If you think otherwise, keep watching the video until you realize your mistake. This is simple stuff."

People act like a**holes on the internet, I get it. I'll live.
   4304. Ron J2 Posted: November 21, 2013 at 07:18 PM (#4604172)
A problem that I don't think the NFL has ever faced for the Super Bowl (and yes, I'm aware that it was stunningly cold in some playoff games):

Sever Hamilton players suffered from frostbite during yesterday's Grey Cup practice. Being held in balmy Regina.
   4305. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 21, 2013 at 07:52 PM (#4604185)
You made a statement that was demonstratably false either with a cursory check of the internet, or by reading a post higher up on the same page. At best you made it up without checking, hoping to advance your argument. At worst you knew the opposite was true, and said it anyway. Even in the former case I'd call it lying.


Austin said the same thing on the night of the broadcast. The ref Pops mentions in 4278 had the same interpretation as I did. The NFL's initial response was the call was called correctly. Even Periera's first comments were something along the lines that if you throw the flag, you should call the penalty (a bizarre remark, regardless where you stand). And I don't know what comment higher up in the thread that you're referring to.

I may ultimately be wrong on how the NFL wants to interpret catchable, but I wasn't lying.

People act like a**holes on the internet, I get it. I'll live.


In the spirit of fostering new page good will, I'll just let that go.

But I'm interested in your take to what I posted on the previous page, because it remains why I'm puzzled that so many are seeing this differently than I am.

At the point Lester stepped behind Gronk, at which point we can say they were more or less occupying the same space, Lester took a straight path to the ball. Rewatching the video, it's also clear that he never stopped moving before catching the ball. It was a continuous forward motion on a pretty straight line, moving at least as fast in his direction as Gronkowki was in his route (probably faster when Gronk started to decelerate).

We also know that Gronkowski was still moving in a different direction from the one Lester took to the ball*, thus making his path to the ball a) longer than Lester's and b) including a stop to change direction. Given that, how it is possible that Gronk could have arrived at the spot on the field where the ball was caught before the defender did?

* Not opposite, but undoubtedly different.
   4306. zenbitz Posted: November 21, 2013 at 08:05 PM (#4604192)
Well I don't think the PI non call was as bad as the roughing call on Ahmed Brooks hitting Brees in the shoulders (which also nigh-decided the game). He got fined, too.

The fact they they threw the flag, conferred, then picked it up kind of implies that they did at least *consider* the situation. Or that the Umpire (or whomever has the final say on whether a ball is uncatchable) was on the take.
   4307. stanmvp48 Posted: November 21, 2013 at 09:46 PM (#4604234)
It would have decided the game if the 49ers had been able to make their first and only first down of the 4th quarter. The O was really, awful.
   4308. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Posted: November 21, 2013 at 10:19 PM (#4604251)
Ref Blakeman:
So there was a determination that, in essence, uncatchability, that the ball was intercepted at or about the same time the primary contact against the receiver occurred."

VP officiating Blandino:
After the play -- you'll see the flag come out -- the back judge is going to signal to the side judge and they're going to get together and have a discussion. What they're going to talk about is, "When did the restriction occur in relation to the ball being touched?" Because once the ball is touched, you cannot have pass interference. This is a judgment call; the officials don't have the use of replay. They don't have slow motion replay, and ultimately they ruled that the restriction occurred simultaneously with the ball being touched. When you watch it at full speed, you could see why they would make that call on the field.
In fact the restriction occurred before the ball was touched. It was a blown call, it happens.
   4309. Howie Menckel Posted: November 21, 2013 at 10:37 PM (#4604264)

"A problem that I don't think the NFL has ever faced for the Super Bowl (and yes, I'm aware that it was stunningly cold in some playoff games):"

I believe the total snowfall in East Rutherford, NJ for all the Super Bowls so far combined is less than one inch. That said, there have been blizzards the week before and after. So yes, I'm saying there's a chance.

But snow is far more likely than frigid temps (below 20 degrees) in northern NJ in the winter.

   4310. Kurt Posted: November 22, 2013 at 12:13 AM (#4604297)
Atlanta just attempted (and missed) a 52 yard field goal, down 4 with 2 minutes left in the game. I'm not watching it, so I hope stanmvp can give an update as to whether there was a word from the broadcasters suggesting that the decision could have been otherwise.
   4311. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 22, 2013 at 12:45 AM (#4604308)
#4310, it was a dumb decision, as usual. Better to go for it on 4th down, and if you miss, then, well, you'll try to stop them and try for a touchdown.

The way the Falcons played it, even a successful FG leaves them still behind in the game and still needing a stop.
   4312. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: November 22, 2013 at 12:45 AM (#4604309)
Is the NFL and the NFLPA really taking about a month to get to the bottom of this Dolphins thing? Serious or not, this is really pathetic.
   4313. stanmvp48 Posted: November 22, 2013 at 09:49 AM (#4604358)
I wasn't watching either. Sure sounds dumb, however.
   4314. stanmvp48 Posted: November 22, 2013 at 12:47 PM (#4604445)
4306: I did see the highlights this morning and there was a direct hand to Matt Ryan's face which was not called.
   4315. stanmvp48 Posted: November 22, 2013 at 01:47 PM (#4604464)
Apparently Smith was not going to go for an onside kick if he had made the field goal
   4316. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 22, 2013 at 02:16 PM (#4604476)
The field goal was a dumb enough option at 32 yards. At 52 yards it is simply a bad decision.
   4317. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: November 22, 2013 at 03:18 PM (#4604496)
Man, it seems like practically yesterday when most people in my neck of the woods thought that Robert Griffin III was going to be the greatest quarterback in football history and documentaries were being made about his life. Now, his own teammates are telling him that he needs to keep his big mouth shut and play better.

It's amazing how dramatically some things can change in just three months.
   4318. stanmvp48 Posted: November 22, 2013 at 03:41 PM (#4604506)
If everything falls "right" this weekend; there can be 6 teams tied for the last AFC playoff position at 5-6
   4319. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 22, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4604517)
Man, it seems like practically yesterday when most people in my neck of the woods thought that Robert Griffin III was going to be the greatest quarterback in football history and documentaries were being made about his life. Now, his own teammates are telling him that he needs to keep his big mouth shut and play better.

It's amazing how dramatically some things can change in just three months.


I was never that high on him, and when he got hurt I felt he would never again play as well as he had before the injury.
   4320. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: November 22, 2013 at 04:17 PM (#4604530)
I was never that high on him, and when he got hurt I felt he would never again play as well as he had before the injury.

Congratulations!
   4321. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 22, 2013 at 04:26 PM (#4604540)
Congratulations!


Thanks!

I'll add that I find the "RG3" nickname the silliest nickname in pro sports this side of "The Big Hurt."
   4322. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: November 22, 2013 at 04:27 PM (#4604543)
I was never that high on him, and when he got hurt I felt he would never again play as well as he had before the injury.

I think it's still too early to say that's the case, but it's certainly possible that he will never again be as fast as he was at the very beginning of his career. If that turns out to be the case, not pulling him from the Seattle game will go down as one of the worst decisions ever.

I'll add that I find the "RG3" nickname the silliest nickname in pro sports this side of "The Big Hurt."

On D.C. sports talk radio he's only "RG3" when the team wins. When the team loses, he magically becomes "Robert". Lately he's pretty much exclusively been "Robert", or sometimes even "Bob".
   4323. dave h Posted: November 22, 2013 at 04:31 PM (#4604549)
In fact the restriction occurred before the ball was touched. It was a blown call, it happens.


This is pretty much how I feel about it. I'm not that torn up about the game. The Pats would have been extraordinarily lucky if they had won - not every team has a Kuechly that feels the need to wrap up opposing receivers in the waning seconds of close games. It wasn't a complete travesty either; all that really gets me is people saying it was clearly the correct call, and you're an idiot if you think otherwise.

The field goal was pretty obviously awful. The announcers were surprised, but they don't tend to criticize a coach going "sure" points.
   4324. stanmvp48 Posted: November 22, 2013 at 04:44 PM (#4604561)
I'll add that I find the "RG3" nickname the silliest nickname in pro sports this side of "The Big Hurt."

"Johnny Football"-
   4325. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 22, 2013 at 05:08 PM (#4604586)
not every team has a Kuechly that feels the need to wrap up opposing receivers in the waning seconds of close games.


This is the point of it. It's not just that Kuechly committed a penalty while legitimately trying to cover the receiver. Kuechly simply decided to mug the receiver, for several steps as the play was developing, to prevent him from getting to the ball. While intent is not relevant, to take that set of circumstances and bend over backwards to make absurd definitive proclamations about how it was "physically impossible" for the receiver "to get anywhere close" to the play is ridiculous. Perhaps we can't say with certainty that Gronkowski would have gotten there, but -- unlike the pass 30 feet above a receiver's head -- he may well have, and the entire reason for our uncertainty is because he was interfered with all along the way.

As to the ESPN physics piece linked to, I view it as back-of-the-envelope fluff, not to be taken all that seriously. But, then again, this situation doesn't require that you assemble a team of the world's greatest physicists to weigh in -- only that you take a reasonable look at the play. Which the ESPN piece did, and I will say that I trust their calculations a lot more than I trust SoSH's handwaving.

   4326. zenbitz Posted: November 22, 2013 at 05:09 PM (#4604587)
4th and 15 from the 35 down 4 with 2:24 remaining is a bad spot. Falcons have a 0.05 WP - not including the fact that they had taken 5 sacks already.

Converting a 4th and 15 is maybe a 15% chance. Then they have to actually score a TD from the 20 (50%?) and not give up a FG to Brees in time remaining (67%?). That's probably the 0.05

The Smith line is like 50% on the FG, then kickoff, then make a stop, then drive back to kick a FG. For this to be = to GFI the probability of making a stop and driving back only has to be 10%, and that's assuming they lose 100% of the time when they miss the FG (which is what happens but they probably still have a 1% or so of pulling it out.

You should only onside kick if your chance to stop NO is <15% or so. Maybe 20% because of the extra field position from recovering the kick as compared to a NO punt.

I actually don't think kicking the FG there is the worst decision ever, although possibly my math is wrong and it's terrible.

Also if you make the field goal, than Brees can't take the intentional safety to end the game! OK, that's probably marginal.
   4327. zenbitz Posted: November 22, 2013 at 05:12 PM (#4604588)
You can't -- and the officials certainly can't -- judge Kuchley's intent. Maybe he was sure it would be intercepted and was blocking, just mistimed his block (see 4308).
   4328. dave h Posted: November 22, 2013 at 05:16 PM (#4604598)
You have a 33% chance for NO to drive for a FG in the time left after a TD. In that case, there's no way that them preventing him from even making a first down, and then driving for a FG in the time remaining, is 10%.

Why is the onside kick only good if the stop is <15%? It's not just the chances of recovering the kick, plus the field position. It's also plus all the time/time-outs that you save. The only negative of onside kicking is the field position, which is why it's usually a good call - giving up 35 yards of field position is absolutely worth the 20% chance of getting the ball without time elapsing.
   4329. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 22, 2013 at 05:21 PM (#4604603)

Why is the onside kick only good if the stop is <15%? It's not just the chances of recovering the kick, plus the field position. It's also plus all the time/time-outs that you save. The only negative of onside kicking is the field position, which is why it's usually a good call - giving up 35 yards of field position is absolutely worth the 20% chance of getting the ball without time elapsing.


I agree. I also think it's a strategy that should be employed much more frequently in non-late game situations.

And as a frequent attendee of my son's high school's games (he doesn't play), it's a strategy I would advise on just about 100 percent of all high school kickoffs.

   4330. Kurt Posted: November 24, 2013 at 11:05 PM (#4605534)
Well, that (Rodgers-Cromartie) had to be the dumbest injury of the week.
   4331. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 25, 2013 at 12:35 AM (#4605559)
Indeed. I might say of the month.
   4332. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 25, 2013 at 12:50 AM (#4605565)
Belichicken just took the wind in OT. I realize they have to score a TD to win in sudden death, but... come on. How difficult do you want to make this for yourself.

This after he had the ball with 38 or so seconds on the clock to end the half and chose to sit on his ass instead of trying to win the game.
   4333. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 25, 2013 at 01:24 AM (#4605572)
Welker needed to fair catch it there once it became too late to call his teammates off.

(BTW, Julian Edelmen is the next Wes Welker. Welker was made by the Patriots.)
   4334. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: November 25, 2013 at 10:59 AM (#4605630)

Belichicken just took the wind in OT. I realize they have to score a TD to win in sudden death, but... come on. How difficult do you want to make this for yourself.


Since the new OT rules were instituted, teams who get the ball first are winning less than 50% of the time. I think deferring is now usually the right move regardless of wind.
   4335. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 25, 2013 at 11:25 AM (#4605644)
#4334, I realize the new OT rules change the analysis, so I shouldn't be so quick to dismiss the decision to take the ball - even though the core of the game is essentially that you need to possess the ball to win. Do you have something from a football analysis site that has a general analysis of this, or a specific analysis of last night's decision?
   4336. zenbitz Posted: November 25, 2013 at 11:26 AM (#4605645)
Dave, in @4328 are you saying that the chance of stopping Brees is <10%? 10% is just lower bound for kick the FG. I think what you are saying is that the two parameters "don't give up a FG after you make one" and "don't give up a first down after you miss" are correlated, they are, but it's obviously much easier to stop a FG drive than a single 1st down. And teams (although the Saints not so much) get extremely conservative and run up the gut 3 times in this situation.

The thing about the onside kick is that it's not a surprise kick. Mandatory onside kicks at the end of games only have a 10% chance of being recovered. Probably a semi-surprise has a somewhat better chance (although leading by 1 with ~2 minutes field position is irrelevant to NO, they just need a 1st down). So NO plays the hands team no matter what. Maybe you can try a little mid-range pooch kick but I don't think anyone can figure the odds on that.

Ah, but I get what you are saying about the field position. I think it does matter though, certainly in a FG game.... but maybe not enough to take the risk.
   4337. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: November 25, 2013 at 12:35 PM (#4605687)
Ray,

Here is an article analyzing the new overtime system. It's still in its infancy, so perhaps premature to draw firm conclusions, but they do suggest teams should rethink their strategies.

(Note: the stats in the article cover only 2012; I think that including 2013 data the percentage of coin-toss winners winning OT has fallen below 50%, as I indicated above)
   4338. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 25, 2013 at 12:40 PM (#4605693)
Thanks. I'll take a look.

Scanning one stat-heavy site (Football Outsiders) there does seem to be an undercurrent that the coach should choose to receive in OT.
   4339. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: November 25, 2013 at 01:22 PM (#4605735)
It's abundantly clear after last night that even if they do end up with home field advantage, fair-weather Peyton will most likely lose again in the playoffs as soon as he has to play in tough conditions. That rag arm of his just isn't strong enough to throw the ball through a stiff breeze any more.
   4340. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 25, 2013 at 01:25 PM (#4605738)
He seemed to do ok throwing into the wind on the 80 yard drive towards the end of regulation, to tie the game.
   4341. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: November 25, 2013 at 01:50 PM (#4605761)
He played like crap. He was lucky he wasn't intercepted multiple times, and it was painfully obvious throughout the entire game that he didn't want to throw the ball unless he absolutely had to. Because he can't do it well in those conditions, and he knows it. He's still extremely accurate, but the arm strength just isn't there.

With that lousy defense of theirs, Denver is screwed despite their record.
   4342. dave h Posted: November 25, 2013 at 02:52 PM (#4605816)
#4336, I was trying to say that if you believe that Brees is 33% to drive for a FG in the limited time remaining after you score a TD, then there's no way that you have a 10% chance of stopping him from even getting one first down, and then driving for a FG yourself in the time remaining.

For onside kicks, according to this site, even mandatory onside kicks are close to 20% (the lowest estimate I've seen is still 15%+). It jumps up to 60% for surprise kicks.

For the Pats game, taking the wind is a tough call I think - the breakeven on OT seems to be really close so it can go either way with context, and you have the wind versus the offensive proficiency of the two teams. Tough to say which was going to be more important. Remember it's not just throwing into the wind, your FG range changes a lot. Turns out it probably didn't matter one way or the other.
   4343. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Posted: November 25, 2013 at 03:11 PM (#4605836)
Turns out it probably didn't matter one way or the other.
Eh? I think the wind may have had something to do with that last punt.
   4344. zack Posted: November 25, 2013 at 03:55 PM (#4605860)
Not to mention that the last Denver punt would have been a 60 yard field goal. Do they attempt that with the wind?
   4345. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 25, 2013 at 04:10 PM (#4605869)
Not to mention that the last Denver punt would have been a 60 yard field goal. Do they attempt that with the wind?


And the drive started after a 51-yard New England punt.

   4346. dave h Posted: November 25, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4605880)
The NE punts were 51 and 42 yards, which don't seem particularly outlandish (even going by net). It's not clear to me how the wind caused the turnover. Is the theory that Welker was playing for too much wind, and it died? Denver had a 40 yard fair-caught punt, and the second was short but punting from the 42.

A 60-yard field goal is a huge risk in OT, since if you miss the other team gets it at midfield.
   4347. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 25, 2013 at 04:55 PM (#4605901)
To me it seemed like Welker over-estimated the wind effect, i.e., how far the ball was going to carry in the wind. Once he figured out that the ball was coming down 10 yards in front of him (or whatever it was), he tried to call off the dogs and warn his blockers, but it was too late.

I think. I'm not exactly sure what happened to him. I do know that he was not underneath the ball, and he made a decision not to fair catch it (perhaps because he wasn't close enough), and he seems to have warned his guys too late.

I have little doubt that when his guys see that he has set up camp at a certain spot, they assume that the ball is coming down near that spot -- especially when they haven't seen or heard him signal otherwise.
   4348. zenbitz Posted: November 25, 2013 at 05:00 PM (#4605904)
Huh, maybe I transliterated 0.15 WP into 15%. I read that site all the time. I thought it was lower.
   4349. booond Posted: November 25, 2013 at 05:38 PM (#4605913)
More important than the wind was Moreno's injury. It forced the Broncos to consider the pass and amplified the Patriots' decision to take the wind.
   4350. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: November 25, 2013 at 11:53 PM (#4606029)
I can't believe I'm saying this, but I'm beginning to think that maybe the Skins should start Cousins the last month of the season just to find out whether or not he can actually play.
   4351. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: November 26, 2013 at 12:29 AM (#4606042)
Great game Robert, great ####### game. I know, I know: it's everyone's fault but yours.
   4352. zenbitz Posted: November 26, 2013 at 12:33 AM (#4606044)
Really? I mean, the skins are terrible but I can't pin all that on RGIII. I think we were all fooled by the success of running QBs last year, with defenses simply not being practiced and prepared this year. Both Kaep and RGIII have amazing arms and offensive lines that can't pass protect. RGIII seems to have more elusiveness to avoid sacks and better pocket presence. Kaep takes one look at his number one target and pulls the ball down. However, he doesn't make poor decisions with the football and is a big tough runner. The Skins might be one of the few teams with worse receivers than the Niners.

But the major difference between the teams is that one team has a defense and the other doesn't
   4353. Howie Menckel Posted: November 26, 2013 at 12:45 AM (#4606047)
RG III is a very talented prima donna, the Cousins pick was dumb on many levels, Garcon is an elite WR and they have others with talent, Morris is a top-5 RB again and is young, and the Redskins have many young stars in the front 7.

other than not having their 1st-rd pick next yr and Snyder is an idiot but not as meddlesome as Jerry Jones, that seems like a dream job. is there a better/younger QB/RB combo entering 2014, with Griffin not off surgery?

   4354. zenbitz Posted: November 26, 2013 at 12:57 AM (#4606048)
I'll take Wilson/Lynch, even though Lynch is old in RB years. I guess Luck/Anyone but Richardson qualifies as well.

   4355. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: November 26, 2013 at 01:06 AM (#4606054)
Kaep takes one look at his number one target and pulls the ball down. However, he doesn't make poor decisions with the football and is a big tough runner. The Skins might be one of the few teams with worse receivers than the Niners.

I think this is a tad harsh on Kaep. He has struggled at times this year but the drop-off from Davis/Boldin and everyone else is so huge that he really hasn't had much to rely on other than those two guys. I think we are going to see a significant bump in performance as Manningham gets healthier and Crabtree comes back.

His worst games this year have occurred with Vernon Davis out of the lineup. When that has happened, if Boldin has been covered, Kaep has nowhere to go with the ball. VD missed the Indy game and was out for the second half against Carolina.

I know QB rating isn't the best statistic but he's right there with Luck and Brady so far this year. It's not been that bad a year.
   4356. steagles Posted: November 26, 2013 at 01:19 AM (#4606056)
is there a better/younger QB/RB combo entering 2014, with Griffin not off surgery?
well, there is that one team with a 25yo RB who leads the NFL in yards from scrimmage and a 24yo QB who leads the NFL in YPA and QBrating.
   4357. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 26, 2013 at 01:53 AM (#4606060)
Great game Robert, great ####### game. I know, I know: it's everyone's fault but yours.


He's not an NFL quarterback. It happens.
   4358. JJ1986 Posted: November 26, 2013 at 10:08 AM (#4606095)
Even if you completly take away his running, Griffin has an 82 Quarterback Rating this year and a 92 for his career. He's clearly one of the 32 best QBs in the NFL.
   4359. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 26, 2013 at 11:38 AM (#4606142)
His entire game depended on the running. Without that, he struggles, and is not talented enough to succeed on his passing game. He makes horrible reads; he doesn't check down receivers; he makes inaccurate throws.

He is forever scrambling around rather than sitting back and checking down receivers. As a result, he is constantly in Eli-Tyree mode. You can't consistently find open receivers like that. You can't sufficiently avoid interceptions like that. You can't score like that. You can't win like that.

And the biggest thing is that good quarterbacks win. Maybe not in their first year, but he's past that now. I think he will lose his starting job next year - hell, he seems on the verge of losing it this year. Though he will get a couple more chances from teams because he has the magic pixie dust.

He's a more talented version of Tim Tebow, which is not a starting NFL quarterback. He's a college quarterback.
   4360. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 26, 2013 at 11:58 AM (#4606152)
Note that Griffin is playing so poorly that Ahmad Brooks thinks Griffin should not be on the field. Now, granted, Brooks thinks he's hurt -- and he may well be. (I think he is too.) But the point is that whatever the reason, what underlies Brooks's comments is that what we are seeing right now is simply not an NFL quarterback. (If he is hurt then there's a chance for improvement. If he's not hurt -- or if it's not possible for him to get healthier -- then there's a good chance he's no longer NFL material.)

Quoting:

After the San Francisco 49ers' defense dominated the Redskins, one of the players who helped to stymie Washington said he doesn't believe that quarterback Robert Griffin III should be playing.

Ahmad Brooks, who had two sacks, seven tackles (three for loss), a pass defensed and two quarterback hits in the 49ers' 27-6 victory, said he doesn't believe Griffin has fully recovered from his knee injury suffered last season and shouldn't be on the field as a result.

"He's obviously a man and he makes his own decisions, but I personally don't feel he should be playing right now," Brooks said.

Griffin threw for just 127 yards on 17-of-27 passing with one interception and was sacked four times in the loss. Aldon Smith had the other two sacks for the 49ers.

"He's a man, he has the heart of a warrior and is going to go out there and play regardless of the circumstance," Brooks told reporters. "Everybody can see it. Everybody can see it. He shouldn't be playing."

Griffin started the game with four incompletions. When he finally completed his fifth pass, the play lost a yard. His sixth attempt was intercepted.



   4361. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: November 26, 2013 at 12:02 PM (#4606153)
His entire game depended on the running. Without that, he struggles, and is not talented enough to succeed on his passing game. He makes horrible reads; he doesn't check down receivers; he makes inaccurate throws.

While I can't really disagree with your specific points, I still think it's too soon to completely write him off. He's only 23 and coming off a serious knee injury.

Next year is going to be critical though. Assuming they don't get him killed this year he should be completely recovered by then. If he can show the kind of athleticism he had last season, there's still hope. If he can't, it's probably a lost cause, and the Redskins gave up the farm for nothing.

It would also certainly help to get some more talent around him. The offensive line is pretty much an undersized pile of garbage.
   4362. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 26, 2013 at 12:04 PM (#4606154)
He's a more talented version of Tim Tebow, which is not a starting NFL quarterback. He's a college quarterback.

Griffin was one of the best quarterbacks in the NFL last year. This year he's inconsistent and overall mediocre at best.

Gee, what could have possibly happened to both Griffin and the Redskins' offensive line in the interim?

And the biggest thing is that good quarterbacks win. Maybe not in their first year, but he's past that now. I think he will lose his starting job next year - hell, he seems on the verge of losing it this year. Though he will get a couple more chances from teams because he has the magic pixie dust.

Give him a sturdy knee and the confidence that goes with it, and give him an offensive line that's capable of protecting him, and Griffin will thrive. No quarterback can win without both of those prerequisites, not even Clutch God Brady or Choker Peyton.
   4363. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: November 26, 2013 at 12:20 PM (#4606163)
No quarterback can win without both of those prerequisites, not even Clutch God Brady or Choker Peyton.


I don't believe this is completely true. QBs that take a lot of time need capable offensive lines. Quarterbacks like Peyton, who get rid of the ball quickly, need much less help from their front guys.

As a Colts fan, I always felt Peyton made his O Line look much better than it was. I felt the same about Marino, though I didn't see him as much as I did Peyton.



   4364. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 26, 2013 at 12:24 PM (#4606166)
Andy, he's pretty clearly not the quarterback he was last year -- for the reason, as you note, that he suffered the injury.

But he DID suffer it, and as a result he's not the same player. Yes, if he gets healthy and can run a bit again I fully agree that he would be a good quarterback (for as long as that lasts). My point is that if that doesn't happen, I think he's toast.

---

not even Clutch God Brady or Choker Peyton.


By the way, on Brady and my point that an NFL team basically consists of the quarterback and the offensive gameplan (letting him throw), with very few elite non-QBs who can make a difference: Yes, it appears that Brady struggled early on with a makeshift receiving corps. So that is a data point against my theory, that a QB can succeed with any receivers who are FOR THE MOST PART - sometimes you do get elites like Moss not made by the QB - interchangeable. But at the end of the day, what we have seen is that Brady has won. And that part of my point has NOT been challenged by the early-season data point. Yes, Gronkowski returned and is likely one of the "elite" difference makers. But Brady won before Gronkowski returned too. Nobody thinks the Pats as a team other than Brady (who seems to have struggled a bit himself even granting the receivers issue) are much good this year. But Brady has won anyway.
   4365. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 26, 2013 at 12:38 PM (#4606172)
No quarterback can win without both of those prerequisites, not even Clutch God Brady or Choker Peyton.

I don't believe this is completely true. QBs that take a lot of time need capable offensive lines. Quarterbacks like Peyton, who get rid of the ball quickly, need much less help from their front guys.

As a Colts fan, I always felt Peyton made his O Line look much better than it was. I felt the same about Marino, though I didn't see him as much as I did Peyton.


I doubt if even an injury free Griffin would ever have achieved the quick release capability of a Manning, but as last year demonstrated, he has other skills that can offset that deficiency as long as the knee and his protection hold up.

----------------------------------------------------

Andy, he's pretty clearly not the quarterback he was last year -- for the reason, as you note, that he suffered the injury.

But he DID suffer it, and as a result he's not the same player. Yes, if he gets healthy and can run a bit again I fully agree that he would be a good quarterback (for as long as that lasts). My point is that if that doesn't happen, I think he's toast.


Can't argue with that, although I think it's too soon to write off his recovery. OTOH his pathetic offensive line is putting further recovery in severe jeopardy, so your dire prediction may well come to pass.
   4366. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 26, 2013 at 12:47 PM (#4606185)
Can't argue with that, although I think it's too soon to write off his recovery. OTOH his pathetic offensive line is putting further recovery in severe jeopardy, so your dire prediction may well come to pass.


But why is he playing if everyone thinks he is still hurt and not recovered to the fullest extent possible?
   4367. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: November 26, 2013 at 12:48 PM (#4606186)
many quarterbacks regress in their second year of full time play as the opposition adjusts. the good ones rebound

on a related note the Washington situation seems toxic. not conducive to success
   4368. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: November 26, 2013 at 01:32 PM (#4606204)
But why is he playing if everyone thinks he is still hurt and not recovered to the fullest extent possible?

Partially because of the absurd haul the team gave up just to get him in the first place, and partially because the Shanahans still believe that even a diminished Griffin gives them the best chance to win, and they're now coaching for their jobs.

And the latter is the biggest reason why I suspect we're not going to see Cousins and Griffin is going to be further exposed to serious injury the rest of this season. Shanahan is no idiot; he knows that how the team performs in these last five games will probably determine whether he and his son are even allowed to come back as lame ducks next season.
   4369. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 26, 2013 at 01:35 PM (#4606207)
But why is he playing if everyone thinks he is still hurt and not recovered to the fullest extent possible?

It's not quite that easy. There have been times---against Diego and the Bears, for example---when he's almost looked like the RGIII of old. But then there are games like last night's. And then there have been times like the last quarter of last week's Eagles game, when he played terrifically to lead a sensational near comeback from 24-0, only to throw one of the dumbest interceptions I've ever seen to end the game in a loss. My bottom line is that it's still way too early to form a final judgment about Griffin, but it's not too early to form a definite opinion about his protection.

---------------------------------------------------

on a related note the Washington situation seems toxic. not conducive to success

The "Washington situation" is as bad as it gets. Beyond the cartoon villain Snyder, you've got a coach in the third year of a four year contract who's naturally desperate to get it extended, but who's stuck by his chosen defensive coordinator despite a track record the equivalent of a sprinter with polio. Add to that the false hopes that were created by last year's seven game win streak, the lost draft choices given away in order to be able to move up to #2 and pick Griffin, and you've got the perfect storm for paranoia and finger pointing.
   4370. zenbitz Posted: November 26, 2013 at 02:02 PM (#4606223)
Just to back up Andy's point: The 49ers defensive front is living on it's rep a little. They have had a couple good games this year, but only against bad offensive lines (STL, SEA - a game they lost badly in the 4th quarter).


As for Kaepernick, he put up solid-but-not-outrageous numbers against a bad defense selling out to stop the run. And I mean SELLING OUT. There was at least 1 10-man box in a non-goal line situation and usually they were putting in 9 if it wasn't 3rd and long. When decent defenses do this against the Niners, the offense is awful. Any live passing attack should have just shredded that defense, at least until they forced to play honest 7 man fronts (at which point the Niners should just run over them).

Now, I agree that the 'vaunted' OL of the Niners has underperformed, especially at pass blocking. And their number 3+ targets are very meh. And the coaching staff is stubborn as all get-out. But the fact remaining is that the passing offense should be annihilating these defensive schemes. If you watch Kaepernick's *successful* plays you can see that they are almost all very quick read rifle passes. And he is fantastic at making those throws. Now, presumably the way the offenses are run is that there are two "#1 reads" on each passing play, depending on if the defense is primarily man or zone or whatever.

But if both of those reads are taken away - either by coverage or pressure, it's very rare that the Niners make a play. And all we are talking is dumping off to a safety valve underneath. If the Niners can get ~4 yards passing on 1st and 10 or 2nd-and-8 they are going to put much more pressure on the defense.
   4371. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 26, 2013 at 02:36 PM (#4606238)
Let's be honest: Kaepernick has not played up to most peoples' expectations of him.

   4372. JJ1986 Posted: November 26, 2013 at 02:54 PM (#4606247)
Kaepernick has definitely disappointed, but something is wrong with the Niners playcalling. I've never seen a team have as much trouble getting plays in as San Francisco this year.
   4373. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 26, 2013 at 03:06 PM (#4606254)
By the way, on the subject of quarterbacks:

Cam Newton basically cheated on Sunday. He was touched as he was going out of bounds, he saw the defender coming, and then he took a swan dive and made it appear to the refs that he was hit hard while out of bounds. He got the call, which was huge in the game.

That is wrong.
   4374. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 26, 2013 at 03:13 PM (#4606257)
By the way, on the subject of quarterbacks:

Cam Newton basically cheated on Sunday. He was touched as he was going out of bounds, he saw the defender coming, and then he took a swan dive and made it appear to the refs that he was hit hard while out of bounds. He got the call, which was huge in the game.

That is wrong.


But on a cheating scale, was that more dastardly than pitch framing or pretending you've been hit by a pitch? We're probably going to have to get St. Peter to make the final call on this one.
   4375. Ray (RDP) Posted: November 26, 2013 at 03:22 PM (#4606261)
Andy: Do you agree that flopping in the NBA is cheating? I suspect you don't, but do you at least agree that it is wrong and ought not be practiced without penalty?

The league is trying to curtail flopping, after all. Why do they view it as "wrong"? If you view it as "wrong," why do you view it as wrong? What subset of "wrong" would you classify it as? Because I would classify it as cheating.

EDIT: I guess the argument against this being cheating is that the player is allowed to go in there and establish position and the offensive player is not allowed to charge him. So perhaps this isn't cheating. But it sure makes for a terrible in-game experience to sit through this nonsense. And the player _is_ falling to the floor when he could very well stay upright.
   4376. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: November 26, 2013 at 03:25 PM (#4606264)
Meanwhile, Griffin takes vicious, borderline hits on the sideline and frequently doesn't get the call. There was one last night that didn't get flagged, and I have seen ones get flagged that were a lot less flagrant.

Oh yeah, and that punk Aldon Smith also intentionally kicked him right in the huevos and somehow not one referee saw it happen. Hopefully someone will eventually take that guy out with a cheap shot.
   4377. Publius Publicola Posted: November 26, 2013 at 03:26 PM (#4606265)
Shanahan should be fired, IMO. Not the least, because he hired his son to be offensive coordinator.

I also hate the way he's handling griffin. Griffin is going to be hamburger by seasons end.
   4378. zenbitz Posted: November 26, 2013 at 05:22 PM (#4606333)
@4372 - they had this same problem with late play calls + over audibling last year, two. With both Smith and Kaep. Going back to 2011 as well. It was actually not that bad last week, only 1 extra TO and the only delay of game was on a Kaepernick faulty spin brain fart.

@4371 - certainly Kaepernick not being that good at the non-throwing non-running part of QB play is part of it. But we cannot generally untangle QB play from the rest of the pass offense over a short time frame.
   4379. zenbitz Posted: November 26, 2013 at 05:28 PM (#4606337)

Griffin is running on those plays and he has no "passer protection". Kaep got lit up a couple times too.

And I didn't think he kicked him in the nuts on purpose, he's not even looking at him (engaged with a blocker). He even offers to help him up. So if he did it on purpose it was pretty ninja like. That being said, I am not sure how his knee flies up like that... maybe he cleat caught or something.
   4380. steagles Posted: November 26, 2013 at 05:46 PM (#4606350)
Meanwhile, Griffin takes vicious, borderline hits on the sideline and frequently doesn't get the call. There was one last night that didn't get flagged, and I have seen ones get flagged that were a lot less flagrant.
this comes up with vick a lot, too. the problem is, if you give that kind of an athlete daylight, he'll cut upfield and a 6 yard scramble for a 1st down will turn into a 66 yard scramble for a TD in 5 seconds flat.

it kind of sucks, but if you're RGIII, if you're mike vick, 95% of the time, that hit is on you. you can't be touched if you slide, so unless you're in the 2 minute drill, the fact that you're still running means you're a threat, and i really can't get on defenders too much for playing until the whistle in that situation.
   4381. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 26, 2013 at 06:06 PM (#4606368)
Andy: Do you agree that flopping in the NBA is cheating? I suspect you don't, but do you at least agree that it is wrong and ought not be practiced without penalty?

I think NFL and NBA flopping are roughly equivalent bush league tactics, and if the leagues want to make a rule against it, I wouldn't complain. But unless they're going to find yet one more excuse to delay the game for a replay, IMO it's too subjective a call in real time to be enforced with any degree of consistency: Some calls would be easy to make, but some wouldn't be, and all the ones in between would do would be to make an already long game even longer. I see it much more as a practical issue than a moral one. IMO bush league ≠ immoral ≠ cheating, but if the league wants to make that equation, it's up to them.
   4382. Greg K Posted: November 26, 2013 at 06:08 PM (#4606370)
Andy: Do you agree that flopping in the NBA is cheating? I suspect you don't, but do you at least agree that it is wrong and ought not be practiced without penalty?

The league is trying to curtail flopping, after all. Why do they view it as "wrong"? If you view it as "wrong," why do you view it as wrong? What subset of "wrong" would you classify it as? Because I would classify it as cheating.

I guess it depends on the league's rules (and to what degree they are enforced). "Diving" is certainly an issue in hockey and soccer. In hockey there's certainly a stigma attached, though (unless things have changed in the last 5 years) refs seem hesitant to call it as a penalty (which it is by the rules), or if they do, they cop out and give a penalty to the "diver" and to the guy who did the alleged trip/illegal hit.

Soccer deals with the issue as well, and there certainly seems to be criticism of players when they do it...though it seems like it is less heinous a crime than in hockey (at least based on the outcries it gets from commentators).

I'd say it's a grey area. Embellishing in order to get a call seems universally to be seen as bad sportsmanship, and I'm sure there are some players who consider it cheating and would like to see the offender removed from the game. I guess it all depends on what the line between "cheating" and "illegal" is. It's illegal to go for the ball, but instead take out a guy's legs in soccer, and such an act should result in a free kick or a yellow card depending on the circumstance. Whereas if a defender is beat, and he cynically takes the guy out to prevent him from coming in on goal, that's closer to cheating and deserves a harsher penalty. I'd consider Newton's attempt to take advantage of the rules as certainly unsportsmanlike...I'm not nearly certain enough of the language to know whether or not to call it cheating or not. If he played for my team I'd certainly want him penalized for it.
   4383. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: November 26, 2013 at 06:15 PM (#4606374)
Shanahan should be fired, IMO. Not the least, because he hired his son to be offensive coordinator.

Yeah, but even worse is his crony hiring of Jim Haslett and Keith Burns. Burns was decent enough in Denver, but the Redskins' special teams are an absolute disaster. The only problem I'd have with firing Shanahan is that given the Redskins' organizational reputation, I doubt that his replacement would be much of an improvement.

I also hate the way he's handling griffin. Griffin is going to be hamburger by seasons end.

I fear the same thing, but unless you're just going to bench him for the season, I'm not sure what Shanahan can do to protect him, given the realities of his offensive line and Griffin's own willingness to gamble his body for a few extra yards. Until you fix that offensive line, his chance of winding up in a poppy seed bun is going to be there with or without a full injury recovery, either this year or next.
   4384. Kurt Posted: November 26, 2013 at 06:19 PM (#4606379)
Embellishing in order to get a call seems universally to be seen as bad sportsmanship


I don't this this is right. I've never seen anything but praise for a punter or kicker who spins around three times and goes down like he was shot when someone brushes up against his leg (or at the very least they get some "can't blame him for trying"-type comment, and it's not at all uncommon to see announcers say it's a smart play for a QB or WR to embellish a bit.

It seems to me there's a clear dividing line in public perception between embellishing a hit and simulating a non-existent hit.
   4385. Greg K Posted: November 26, 2013 at 06:32 PM (#4606386)

It seems to me there's a clear dividing line in public perception between embellishing a hit and simulating a non-existent hit.

I think that's fair enough, I guess there are several different grey areas we're working with.

Personally I probably err on the side of sportsmanship...but that's just me.
   4386. zenbitz Posted: November 26, 2013 at 06:37 PM (#4606391)
I think the last thing the NFL needs is more subjective "intention" based penalties. Newton is going out of bounds. He's allowed to dive (literally) out of bounds and he's allowed to avoid contact. If he gets a call, he gets one - and no pro in any sport (golf?) is going to call off a penalty on the other team. "Sorry Mr. Ref, that CB didn't interfere with me, I was pushing off".

   4387. Greg K Posted: November 26, 2013 at 06:41 PM (#4606396)
and no pro in any sport (golf?) is going to call off a penalty on the other team. "Sorry Mr. Ref, that CB didn't interfere with me, I was pushing off".

Are you suggesting that curling isn't a major sport? I am aghast!
   4388. zack Posted: November 26, 2013 at 06:54 PM (#4606408)
I think the last thing the NFL needs is more subjective "intention" based penalties. Newton is going out of bounds. He's allowed to dive (literally) out of bounds and he's allowed to avoid contact. If he gets a call, he gets one - and no pro in any sport (golf?) is going to call off a penalty on the other team. "Sorry Mr. Ref, that CB didn't interfere with me, I was pushing off".

Cricket players (very) rarely call themselves out (walk) if they know they nicked it but the ump doesn't call it. But usually, all that does is invite criticism that you're gaming it and wouldn't do so if you were trailing, trying to set up doubt in the future, etc.
   4389. Greg K Posted: November 26, 2013 at 07:11 PM (#4606413)
Cricket players (very) rarely call themselves out (walk) if they know they nicked it but the ump doesn't call it. But usually, all that does is invite criticism that you're gaming it and wouldn't do so if you were trailing, trying to set up doubt in the future, etc.

One of the Flashman novels uses the early gentlemanly rules of cricket for some entertainment. Apparently among the better sort of cricket player in the 1850s if you appealed that you had bowled a batter out the ump would give it to you (because what kind of cad would claim to have bowled a man out if he wasn't sure?). So Flashman cheats his way into an out that way.

I'm a bit of a sucker for sappy sportsmanship stuff...if a player did correct an umpire's decision to his disadvantage he'd immediately become my favourite baseball player. It sure looked like Jason Donald (I think it was him) really wanted to tell the umpire he was out in that Armanda Galarraga perfect game. My fantasy is a world where it would have been perfectly normal for him to do so.

I did get into an awkward situation last year playing baseball because of this. While playing first base I reluctantly pulled off a hidden ball trick. The pitcher tossed it back to me while the runner was...well God knows WHAT he was doing, we were fairly obvious about it. He took his lead off while I was standing about 3 feet away from the bag with the ball in my glove. But it was a friendly game against the local Nottingham university team and the poor guy was probably just taught the rules that morning, so I thought tagging him would be a dick move. I just tossed it back to the pitcher...who was not terribly pleased.
   4390. Lance Reddick! Lance him! Posted: December 01, 2013 at 03:48 PM (#4608243)
13:00 left in the third quarter of Bucs-Panthers, and a pass interference call was just waved off because the ball was intercepted in front of the receiver.
   4391. zenbitz Posted: December 01, 2013 at 06:12 PM (#4608297)
If you want to see some yellow flags, you should check out SF-STL. They are calling everything. 1/2 way threw the 2nd quarter 11 penalties already, 7 on the Rams. 2 on Michael Crabtree. Game is pretty chippy so the announcers are claiming that the refs are trying to keep control.
   4392. Howie Menckel Posted: December 01, 2013 at 06:40 PM (#4608301)
"Cam Newton basically cheated on Sunday. He was touched as he was going out of bounds, he saw the defender coming, and then he took a swan dive and made it appear to the refs that he was hit hard while out of bounds."

I was watching this game live. The Dolphins defender got his hands on Newton as he reached out of bounds, the playing surface was uneven there (some sort of plastic spot), and Newton seemed to slip. Given how the game is officiated, obviously if you have a hand on a QB as he goes out of bounds and the QB lands on the ground, it will be a flag every time. Newton was grinning, imo, because he knew he got lucky - he fell, and the Dolphins defender had not backed off the play.

I was rooting for the Dolphins, btw, because the same Panther defender who benefited from a picked-up flag in the Patriots game in the end zone (weird play) got a more egregious one picked up just before the end of the first half vs MIA. Likely would have put Dolphins up 20-3 instead of 16-3, and I think the Panthers would have lost the game. But the MIA coach is awful, and he probably spent the entire halftime griping about an awful reversal instead of trying to play the damn game.

I talked to a diehard Dolphins fan in my office the next day, and he had the same take as me - if you have a hand on a QB after he goes OB, you are begging to be flagged even if you don't deserve it. It wasn't cheating, it was luck. That said, the two results make it impossible for me to root for the Panthers this year.

........

"I've never seen a team have as much trouble getting plays in as San Francisco this year."

The Giants haven't exactly dominated the NFL the last several years, but they won a couple of Super Bowls with this very issue rearing its ugly head pretty often.

   4393. Jim Wisinski Posted: December 01, 2013 at 06:53 PM (#4608303)
Is there anything more typical of Cleveland sports than this little blurb on NFL.com?

Josh Gordon burned the Jaguars for 261 yards, becoming the first receiver in NFL history to post back-to-back 200-yard outings. The Browns still lost.
   4394. stanmvp48 Posted: December 01, 2013 at 07:22 PM (#4608317)
"Makes the decision easy for Andy Reid"
   4395. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: December 01, 2013 at 07:39 PM (#4608324)
s there anything more typical of Cleveland sports than this little blurb on NFL.com?

Josh Gordon burned the Jaguars for 261 yards, becoming the first receiver in NFL history to post back-to-back 200-yard outings. The Browns still lost.

and they lost the previous game, also
   4396. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: December 01, 2013 at 07:50 PM (#4608329)
As the Limeys would say, Cooper is having a "torrid" time out there today ...
   4397. steagles Posted: December 02, 2013 at 02:11 AM (#4608438)
the refereeing of today's eagles game was pretty terrible. all-in-all, i'd say the eagles got the better of it since the game essentially ended when a weak-ish call gave the eagles a 1st down that let them run out the clock, but if they didn't have a punt return TD called back for a sub-borderline holding call, that game would have been all but sealed with a 31-14 lead with 10 minutes left in the 4th quarter.


other than that, i'm pretty disappointed in chip kelly (relative to the standards he's set so far in his tenure) coming out of the bye. maybe an extra 7 days isn't enough to completely revamp the running game, but what they're doing needed to be adjusted if they're going to get the most out of lesean mccoy with nick foles at QB. from what i can see, mccoy is taking handoffs completely flatfooted, and whether that's because of the design of the play itself or indecisiveness from foles in handing the ball off, it's leading to way too many blown up runs in the backfield. (fwiw, bryce brown is having the same issue.)

oh, and w/r/t the 4 minute offense issues the eagles seem to be having this year, their problem is that they're not moving the chains. it annoys me to hear all of the talk about how they don't burn enough clock because it really doesn't matter whether you're running a hurryup offense or the 4-minute drill if you go 3 and out with 6 minutes left in the 4th quarter.
   4398. zenbitz Posted: December 02, 2013 at 01:24 PM (#4608664)
man only an Eagles fan would ##### about the coaching after pretty handily beating an excellent Arizona team. Actually a 49er fan would, too.

I have to admit some schadefreud about Cooper since he was cut by the Niners in training camp to keep Nmandi (who was later cut mid season).

Final tally in SF: Arizona 11 penalties/ 105 yards, SF 9 penalties/85 yards. I actually suspect that Harbaugh purposefully had his team trash talk and slap fight early to aggravate a "physical" Rams team and get the refs involved.

Apparently the chippiness started in pregame warm ups because the Niners were "too close" to Arizona's side of the field)
   4399. steagles Posted: December 02, 2013 at 02:25 PM (#4608739)
man only an Eagles fan would ##### about the coaching after pretty handily beating an excellent Arizona team. Actually a 49er fan would, too.
i'm not ########, i was just expecting more.
   4400. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 02, 2013 at 02:57 PM (#4608769)
What should Tomlin's penalty be? They're talking a major fine, a suspension, and a draft pick.

I'd go with a fine and suspension, myself. Probably 50K and 1 game.
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