Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Tuesday, November 06, 2012

OT: NFL/NHL thread

i estimate that absolutely noone gives a damn about the NHL, so by folding that thread into this one, we won’t distract from what this thread is really about: boner pills, blood doping (is it low t?), and…jesus christ did mike vick just throw another ####### interception?

steagles Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:03 AM | 8432 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nfl, nhl

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 45 of 85 pages ‹ First  < 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 >  Last ›
   4401. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 02, 2013 at 02:59 PM (#4608772)
Also, I see that the Patriots are now the 2 seed and with a 9-3 record and a good points differential and a lot of points scored.

They are basically at the top of the league in points scored (with some other teams) with the exception of the Broncos.

Quarterback and offensive game plan are everything in the NFL.
   4402. steagles Posted: December 02, 2013 at 03:26 PM (#4608808)
What should Tomlin's penalty be? They're talking a major fine, a suspension, and a draft pick.

I'd go with a fine and suspension, myself. Probably 50K and 1 game.

should? i'll say a 2 game suspension for tomlin, plus a 250K fine for the steelers, plus the loss of 4th and 5th round draft picks in 2015 if the steelers do anything similarly cheaterish in the next 20 games.

   4403. zack Posted: December 02, 2013 at 04:08 PM (#4608841)
Quarterback and offensive game plan are everything in the NFL.

Are you contractually obligated to say this on every single page of this thread or something? How does that explain the Bears? Or Dallas?
   4404. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 02, 2013 at 04:12 PM (#4608847)
The Bears I haven't followed much; I'd have to look.

Dallas? Romo is overrated but he's 62-43. He's a good quarterback.

But as long as we're picking examples out of a hat, look at the Packers without Rodgers.
   4405. zenbitz Posted: December 02, 2013 at 04:20 PM (#4608856)
Ironicially, the patriots offense is 2nd tier. There defense is average and their special teams... 2nd best in the league. Not including sunday's game.

That being said, an average team plus Brady is a serious playoff contender (as Manning proved over the years in Indy). Basically they are the Cowboys with better defense. And the Bears are right in the middle of both on offense/defense/special teams.


If you want a team with all offense and a terrible defense - look at San Diego (or if you want a tolerable defense, Denver).
   4406. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 02, 2013 at 06:16 PM (#4608997)
There were some rumors that Josh Gordon could have been had for a 2nd round pick at the deadline. I was really hoping that Niners would acquire him.

I don't think next week's game against the Seahawks is going to tell us a lot about SF, especially if the Hawks lose against the Saints tonight.
   4407. stanmvp48 Posted: December 02, 2013 at 06:27 PM (#4609005)
There is a new last place team in Sagarin.
   4408. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: December 02, 2013 at 06:43 PM (#4609022)
That being said, an average team plus Brady is a serious playoff contender (as Manning proved over the years in Indy). Basically they are the Cowboys with better defense. And the Bears are right in the middle of both on offense/defense/special teams.

The Bears have been decimated by injuries on defense. They're last in the league against the run (on yards allowed), and it's gotten worse as the season has gone on and more players have gotten hurt. The defense looked better than it was earlier on, when they were still getting turnovers and were scoring. Now, not so much.

Offensively, they've really been great (at least compared to the Bears historically). They haven't really missed a beat with Culter hurt and McCown playing. I think Trestman has had a few learning moments - kicking the FG on 2nd down in OT yesterday has been widely panned, but only cause Gould shockingly missed - but he's been a great hire so far, IMO. The defense was bound to fall apart due to age, and it's almost unfortunate everyone aged/got hurt at the same time.

Of course, some locals are trying to make the McCown/Cutler thing into a real QB controversy, which it isn't for any rational person. The real question is what the Bears do in the offseason with Cutler. I personally would love to see what Trestman could do with a young QB prospect, but they need almost an entire new defense so keeping Cutler is probably the smart move (and he's not going to get a chance to go all Flacco on the Bears, so it shouldn't be *that* expensive).

EDIT: The Bears might be ok/middle of the pack on ST, but that's a huge drop from the last how ever many years. Looking the ST coach to KC was a pretty big loss, and it's showed. I don't know how to include penalties in those rankings, but the number of ST penalties this year that have cost the Bears is getting too high to count.
   4409. zenbitz Posted: December 02, 2013 at 11:08 PM (#4609175)
I don't think next week's game against the Seahawks is going to tell us a lot about SF, especially if the Hawks lose against the Saints tonight.


Well at the half all I think I've learned is that Seattle seems to be way better than the Niners. At least in Seattle.
   4410. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 02, 2013 at 11:13 PM (#4609180)
Is Josh Gordon already the best player to come out of the "supplemental draft"? I don't remember ever even hearing about that thing before.
   4411. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 03, 2013 at 03:45 AM (#4609307)
Well at the half all I think I've learned is that Seattle seems to be way better than the Niners. At least in Seattle.

I think you need to be a little lucky to get to/win the Super Bowl and the Seahawks have been lucky in addition to being an excellent football team. They got to play New Orleans at home, they managed to squeak out some wins against teams they didn't play particularly well against (Tampa and St. Louis) whereas the Niners lost two tight games. With a little bit of luck, the Niners and Seahawks records could be a lot closer.

I don't think anyone is beating Seattle at home this year and it really looks like they are lock to go to the Super Bowl.
   4412. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: December 08, 2013 at 01:58 PM (#4613591)
Lots of "global warming" going on up and down the east coast today. Shanahan and son should be fired just for starting Griffin in these conditions.
   4413. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: December 08, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4613621)
RG 3 and 9, RG 3 and 10, RG 3 and 11, RG 3 and 12...
   4414. steagles Posted: December 08, 2013 at 05:22 PM (#4613713)
RG 3 and 9, RG 3 and 10, RG 3 and 11, RG 3 and 12...
think of the bright side. at least you'll get a high draft pi....oh, wait, you traded it for RG 3 and 13.

   4415. steagles Posted: December 08, 2013 at 05:34 PM (#4613723)
from last week:
other than that, i'm pretty disappointed in chip kelly (relative to the standards he's set so far in his tenure) coming out of the bye. maybe an extra 7 days isn't enough to completely revamp the running game, but what they're doing needed to be adjusted if they're going to get the most out of lesean mccoy with nick foles at QB.


and then today, they ran for 300 yards against a top 5 rush defense that has two of the best DTs in the league behind lesean mccoy who set a new franchise record for rushing yards.

   4416. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 08, 2013 at 06:12 PM (#4613742)
The Pats continue to have a lot of in-game luck and horrible injury luck. Gronk might be out for the year with a torn ACL.

The Pats won a game today with the help of a questionable pass interference call after recovering an onside kick.
   4417. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 08, 2013 at 06:18 PM (#4613745)
Meanwhile, has there ever been a more bizarre (and exciting) finish than today's Ravens-Vikings game? Five ####### touchdowns in the last two minutes and five seconds.
   4418. stanmvp48 Posted: December 08, 2013 at 06:21 PM (#4613747)
including a questionable pass interference call
   4419. stanmvp48 Posted: December 08, 2013 at 06:22 PM (#4613748)
Tenn. just picked up a fourth down that Phil Simms didn't think they should go for. And scored a play or two later
   4420. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: December 08, 2013 at 06:41 PM (#4613756)
So in the SEA-SF game, the Seahawks are punting from around their own 20, and the punt is blocked. The ball is rolling around on the 15 when a Seattle guy swats if forward about 20 yards, it hits a SF guy, and goes out of bounds at ~ the 30. I'm thinking "You can't do that.", and sure enough there is a flag. But here's the rub. SF's choices were accept the penalty, and then Seattle moves back and re-kicks, or accept the results of the play, with the ball on the 30 where Seattle illegally put it. That doesn't make any sense. The ball should be dead from where Seattle first touched it, or the penalty should be enforced from that same spot with SF taking over. It got me wondering that if you could do that on a shanked punt. Illegally advance it and then the other side has to either accept the illegal advancement, or you get to re-kick.

Doesn't make any sense.
   4421. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 08, 2013 at 06:50 PM (#4613763)
Seattle's defensive backs hold and defensive interfere a lot. They have been called five or six times already and the refs have missed a few as well.
   4422. JE (Jason) Posted: December 08, 2013 at 06:51 PM (#4613765)
Congrats to Prater on breaking Dempsey's 43-year old FG record.
   4423. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 08, 2013 at 07:12 PM (#4613779)
Meanwhile, has there ever been a more bizarre (and exciting) finish than today's Ravens-Vikings game? Five ####### touchdowns in the last two minutes and five seconds.

including a questionable pass interference call


That just makes it even more bizarre and exciting.
   4424. Howie Menckel Posted: December 08, 2013 at 07:28 PM (#4613786)

"The Pats continue to have a lot of in-game luck"

today, yeah, but they may have been part of the two biggest fockings all season - pick up the flag to give Panthers the win, and the weird "push call" in OT on Jets midfield FG try. I can't think of another team that had LESS in-game luck entering today....

   4425. Squash Posted: December 08, 2013 at 07:55 PM (#4613801)
God I'm sick of seeing the 49ers commit crucial personal fouls. They have to be the worst-disciplined team in the history of the NFL.
   4426. Squash Posted: December 08, 2013 at 08:21 PM (#4613820)
And the Joe Buck/Troy Aikman team seem to not understand situational football at all. Gore didn't go down because he was hurt - he went down to stay in bounds and keep the clock running and force the Seahawks to burn their last two timeouts. Which they just did. And sure enough, Gore is back in one play later. But hey, it's not like they're paid to be experts or anything.
   4427. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 08, 2013 at 08:38 PM (#4613831)
Gore didn't go down because he was hurt - he went down to stay in bounds and keep the clock running and force the Seahawks to burn their last two timeouts.

Seriously, how did they not at least acknowledge that?

That's a big win for San Francisco. A lot of people have been down on Kap and his numbers were not great today, but he showed a lot of arm talent, picked up some big first downs with his feet, and was able to draw several pass interference calls with the help of his receivers against a great defensive team. He did throw a bad interception though that cost San Francisco some points so it wasn't a perfect game but he definitely played better than the numbers might indicate.

I still don't think it means that much though in the overall picture. The Niners barely beat the Seahawks despite playing at home even though it was a much bigger game for them than it was for Seattle. That does not bode well if they have to play them up in Seattle in the playoffs.
   4428. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: December 08, 2013 at 08:42 PM (#4613834)
I hope they show Brett Celek slide in the snow on his 4th and 10-ish late in the 4th quarter on the replay shows. He could have scored but instead slid down so the Eagles could get a first down and run out the clock. He was obviously having a lot of fun with that slide.
   4429. Greg K Posted: December 08, 2013 at 08:51 PM (#4613842)
I hope they show Brett Celek slide in the snow on his 4th and 10-ish late in the 4th quarter on the replay shows. He could have scored but instead slid down so the Eagles could get a first down and run out the clock. He was obviously having a lot of fun with that slide.

That whole game was a lot of fun. Brought back a lot of memories of playing football in the snow...the way it was meant to be played!
   4430. JE (Jason) Posted: December 08, 2013 at 09:03 PM (#4613853)
That whole game was a lot of fun. Brought back a lot of memories of playing football in the snow...the way it was meant to be played!

Try telling that to every gasbag on ESPN railing at the upcoming Meadowlands Super Bowl.
   4431. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: December 08, 2013 at 09:14 PM (#4613857)
That whole game was a lot of fun. Brought back a lot of memories of playing football in the snow...the way it was meant to be played!

Well, you are Canadian, you think everything is meant to be done in the snow...
   4432. JJ1986 Posted: December 08, 2013 at 11:01 PM (#4613915)
I do not understand the point of having Bob Costas and Hines Ward at the SNF games to exchange three sentences. There's already an announcing team. There's already a studio team. Don't they cover all functions between them?
   4433. zenbitz Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:47 AM (#4613957)
I loved watching Detriot-Philly in the snow. How much better is football with no kicking FGs and XPs?

I was at the game at Candlestick... certainly my last time in that old hunk of concrete. I did have to watch the game on DVR when I got home, you miss a lot from the endzone upper deck.

There are a few defenses in the NFL that simply live on "press" coverage, i.e, uncalled defensive holding. Seattle, St. Louis and New England come to mind. There are probably others. Ravens maybe?

Still not 100% on Gore going down on purpose... it was very awkward. But maybe he thought he'd go out of bounds and then realized that would stop the clock and kinda flopped. Also, at that point in the game there's 3:30 left. Niners need another 1st for the choke hold which they did get on the QB Keeper Power Sweep (same play Alex Smith scored on the Saints in the divisional playoff in 2011). At that point, the 'hawks have to try to get the Niners to accidentally score a TD... but I suspect they were prepared for that..

I think the illegal batting is just a loophole on a blocked punt. They might have to monkey patch the rule in the off season.
   4434. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:10 AM (#4613961)
The Pats continue to have a lot of in-game luck and horrible injury luck. Gronk might be out for the year with a torn ACL.


Is it too much to ask defenders not to go high OR low? What is this nonsense "he can't hit high, so he has to hit low"? Why can't they wrap players up rather than barrel-assing into them?

   4435. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:11 AM (#4613962)
The Pats won a game today with the help of a questionable pass interference call after recovering an onside kick.


I wasn't able to see this game but just watched the replay of that call four times. "Questionable"? I see no pass interference at all.
   4436. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:18 AM (#4613965)
I again spotted an unfortunate QB play. Not illegal or anything, but G Smith of the Jets makes a nice run and then is near the sidelines and it looks like he's slowing down to maybe go out of bounds and then he turns his shoulder in to the defender, leveling him.

Quarterbacks are often taking advantage of the slide rule and the roughing the passer calls. It looks like they're about to slide or go out of bounds, and then they keep going anyway or turn into the defender. The defenders are in an impossible position, not being able to lay a hit on the quarterback who decides at the last second to go down or go out of bounds, while being vulnerable to inaction if the quarterback turns it up field. Smith could well have injured the defender today. These are cheap tactics and the league needs to deal with this.

If you're going to have these rules to protect the quarterbacks, the quarterbacks ought not be allowed to take advantage like this.
   4437. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:25 AM (#4613969)
I see no pass interference at all.

I'm not sure we are talking about the same play. I'm talking about the one that set up the game winning touchdown. Are you saying that it was a bad call?
   4438. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:26 AM (#4613970)
Russlan: Yes. I am saying it was a bad call.
   4439. SteveF Posted: December 09, 2013 at 08:06 AM (#4613992)
If you're going to have these rules to protect the quarterbacks, the quarterbacks ought not be allowed to take advantage like this.

There's no way to fix this short of getting rid of that slide rule entirely. Otherwise you're subject entirely to the discretion of the officials. I suppose alternatively you could make every play -- even judgment calls - reversible via replay. At that point the whistle means nothing, though arguably that's also the case.

That pass interference call was pretty poor. The contact needs to materially impact on the receiver's ability to make the catch, and that didn't seem to meet that criteria. Especially in light of the amount of mugging of receivers that went on during that first half. Maybe the officials got a call from the league at half time.
   4440. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 09:38 AM (#4614016)
Ray: The league has gotten very intolerant of hits out of bounds, and not just on quarterbacks. I agree it's gone too far into territory where it's exploitable.

I fear the day is coming soon where, having already banned tackling above the waist, the league also bans tackling below the waist, removing one of the last barriers between tackle and flag football.
   4441. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 09, 2013 at 09:43 AM (#4614018)
Meanwhile, has there ever been a more bizarre (and exciting) finish than today's Ravens-Vikings game? Five ####### touchdowns in the last two minutes and five seconds.


It was a great great game. The officiating in the game was just awful. Worst I have ever seen. But the game was a wonder to watch, the Vikings kept good draft position, and AP does not sound that injured. All good (except the officiating which was miserable).
   4442. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 10:39 AM (#4614043)
It's interesting: the almost universal fan reaction to games whose final scores are something like 41-38 or 35-31 is "what a great game!" The same fans will carry on and on later in the week about how championship football is about defense and the NFL needs to stop babying quarterbacks and receivers, but I wonder. Seems to me that chicks dig the long ball and football fans dig offense.

I think the NFL's sudden concern over player safety isn't solely about warding off lawsuits (yeah, good luck with that). It's also about driving up scoring.

(The byproduct, though, is that you'll also get more 49-10 snoozefests that everyone who isn't a fan of the winning team turns off before halftime.)
   4443. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 09, 2013 at 10:55 AM (#4614049)
It's interesting: the almost universal fan reaction to games whose final scores are something like 41-38 or 35-31 is "what a great game!"


I don't think it is strictly offense which leads to an exciting game, but big plays. In a high scoring game there are more likely to be big plays, but I have seen many really exciting games with big hits, great tackles, fumbles, interceptions and so on.

What made the Vikings game so great (for example) wasn't the score, but the stream of crazy and big plays all at the end of the game. The huge swings of emotion and the lead kept going back and forth, mostly based on great plays (there was some terrible plays mixed in).
   4444. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:08 PM (#4614160)
MRI confirms that Gronk tore both his ACL and MCL.
   4445. Kurt Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:10 PM (#4614164)
Earlier in the season everyone was talking about what a joke the NFC East is, and it's not great, but the AFC South has turned out to be a thousand times worse.
   4446. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:15 PM (#4614172)
So we say goodbye to the Giants. (And good riddance. Although I'm not looking forward to the silly discussion of whether Tom Coughlin should be fired or "allowed to retire on his own terms" or whatever.)

Who else was eliminated this weekend? Pittsburgh either has been or is on life support.
   4447. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:19 PM (#4614178)
After all the bleating about the Patriots' offense they have scored the third-most points in the league, behind Denver and Seattle, and Brady has them 10-3. He got lucky last night with a bad pass interference call, but the calls at the end of the Jets game and the Panthers game didn't go his way. He pulled one out of the fire against the Saints.

How do we rank the super bowl contenders in the AFC now? Denver - NE - KC - CIN? You can quibble with where NE will rank without Gronkowski but they look in line to get a bye, which is why I've put them second.


   4448. Howie Menckel Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:26 PM (#4614185)

NFL PLAYOFFS

IN
Colts, Broncos/Seahawks

OUT
Texans/Giants, Redskins, Vikings, Buccaneers, Falcons, Rams

AFC dregs who are doomed but not yet eliminated: Steelers, Browns, Titans, Jaguars, Raiders

   4449. jmurph Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:27 PM (#4614186)
Ray: I think your ordering is probably right, though I'd say the NE-KC-CIN grouping could probably be done in any order.

But I think the AFC super bowl winning contenders are, in order: Denver. I don't think the others are particularly good, just better than everyone else in a terrible conference.
   4450. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:28 PM (#4614189)
How do we rank the super bowl contenders in the AFC now? Denver - NE - KC - CIN? You can quibble with where NE will rank without Gronkowski but they look in line to get a bye, which is why I've put them second.

Given the crushing HFA that Denver and Seattle will enjoy during the conference playoffs, I'd be very surprised if they don't wind up in the Super Bowl. I loved seeing the Ravens knock Mr. "Hurry, hurry!" off his pedestal last year, but I can't see any team in the AFC doing that to him this time.

With Gronkowski I would have put NE a solid second behind Denver, but at this point I'm not sure they'd be able to beat Cincinnati, even with the HFA.
   4451. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:30 PM (#4614190)
Three or four plane crashes and the Steelers are in the playoffs.

As for the AFC, Denver and New England are the only contenders. Manning trying to struggle through the rest of the season and then the playoffs on a high ankle sprain is a source of concern, though. Gun to my head I would still pick New England.

It looks likely Kansas City is going to go 12-4 or 11-5 and then lose to Indianapolis in the first round, so at least it's a result their fans are familiar with.

In the NFC, I still don't trust Pete Carroll and so I expect the Saints to win it.
   4452. Howie Menckel Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:32 PM (#4614195)
RJ Bell @RJinVegas 47m

Updated SB odds:

Sea 2/1; NO 7/1; SF 8/1; Car 16/1; Phi, Dal 30/1; Det 40/1
Den 2/1; NE, Cin 12/1; KC, Ind 40/1
(via @LVSuperbook)
   4453. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:35 PM (#4614203)
I love New Orleans at 7/1.

Edit: New England at 12/1 may be even better.
   4454. JJ1986 Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:37 PM (#4614207)
I think New Orleans is a good bet at those odds. Unless you think they have only a 25% chance or so of winning in Seattle.
   4455. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:43 PM (#4614217)
I'd rank the NFC: PHI - NO - SEA - SF - CAR - DAL - DET

Seattle is wildly overrated.
   4456. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:55 PM (#4614233)
Earlier in the season everyone was talking about what a joke the NFC East is, and it's not great, but the AFC South has turned out to be a thousand times worse.

The NFC North went from being in the argument for strongest division to maybe having an 8-8 champion (if the Lions can win another game).
   4457. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 12:57 PM (#4614238)
Seattle is wildly overrated.


Sorry -- to clarify, Seattle is a top team, obviously. What I mean is that people believe they are invincible at home, which is not the case in my view, and is why I think they are overrated.
   4458. zenbitz Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:12 PM (#4614258)
This just in: Ray hates defense.

Philly is a dark horse, although they beat a pretty solid Arizona team, they gave up a lot of yards.
   4459. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:16 PM (#4614264)
they gave up a lot of yards.


The Eagles give up a lot of yards because they have more plays run against them than anyone, because the offense scores so quickly. They are 15th in yards per play.
   4460. Every Inge Counts Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:19 PM (#4614271)
Detroit is just a frustrating team to watch play. They are talented enough to be a contender, but they just self-implode whenever they get a chance. They should be walking away with the division right now, but in a 4 game span with Green Bay w/o Rodgers and the Bears w/o Cutler they won the same number of games (so far) as they have. I think the Lions' coaching staff needs a deep playoff run to keep their jobs, right now they are pissing away talent.
   4461. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:54 PM (#4614330)
Shame about Honey Badger: blew out his ACL and LCL.

Teammates said he was bawling after the game. Heartbreaking.
   4462. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 01:57 PM (#4614337)
Detroit's dirty little secret is that Matt Stafford is not very good.
   4463. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:01 PM (#4614340)
Detroit's dirty little secret is that Matt Stafford is not very good.


People are describing him as the new Brett Favre: just wing it all over the field and take your interceptions while scoring a lot of points. Though he's not as good as Favre.

I'd go to war with him.
   4464. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:11 PM (#4614360)
Stafford is nowhere near Favre's level. He's at about the same level as Jason Campbell or Ryan Fitzpatrick or Alex Smith, any of whom would put up the same numbers playing with Megatron.

Stafford has zero feel for the rush and, probably because Megatron is so awesome, has never gotten the knack for making progressive reads. He has a good arm but that's his only useful skill.
   4465. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:14 PM (#4614364)
I'd rank the NFC: PHI - NO - SEA - SF - CAR - DAL - DET

Seattle is wildly overrated.


Did you watch the Seattle-New Orleans game last Monday night? As in Seattle, 34; New Orleans, 7. You know, that one.
   4466. Every Inge Counts Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:17 PM (#4614371)
I don't think Stafford is close to that bad at all. I put him in the Eli Manning quality of QBs. Footballoutsiders advanced stats seem to like him a lot and he is not helped by the fact that besides Megatron he has below replacement level talents at WR. I definitely don't think any QB could put up Stafford numbers with just Megatron at QB, considering Megatron has had other QBs who have put up terrible numbers with him at WR
   4467. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:20 PM (#4614376)
I admit I could be wrong, but I think FO's stats do not adequately separate Stafford's performance from Megatron's. Every time I watch Stafford I am the opposite of impressed. Bad footwork, no feel for pressure, a mild case of Jeff George Disease (the tendency to fire lasers even when the particular play calls for more touch) anytime the play doesn't go as planned he just hurls it in Megatron's general direction. Which obviously works out a lot.
   4468. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:25 PM (#4614388)
Did you watch the Seattle-New Orleans game last Monday night? As in Seattle, 34; New Orleans, 7. You know, that one.


This is a common mistake, assuming that what you saw last is what will come next.

Also known as "the extent of Mike Francesa's analysis."

Along with the notion that every team that loses that he expected to win "didn't show up for the game."
   4469. jmurph Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:27 PM (#4614393)
This is a common mistake, assuming that what you saw last is what will come next.


Sure, but at least throw us a "the Saints are better because..." or "the Saints will win next time because _________ will go differently." To assert NO is definitely better than Seattle after the Seahawks just embarrassed them doesn't make much sense.
   4470. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:28 PM (#4614395)
I still fondly remember reading through a pile of "welp, guess the Patriots were just a flash in the pan after all, they should have hung onto Bledsoe" articles after the Patriots lost to the Bills 31-0 to open the 2003 season.
   4471. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:42 PM (#4614417)
Did you watch the Seattle-New Orleans game last Monday night? As in Seattle, 34; New Orleans, 7. You know, that one.

This is a common mistake, assuming that what you saw last is what will come next.


Translation: "I'll ignore anything that doesn't confirm my hunches, even if Seattle still has the HFA the next time they meet."

------------------------------------------------

Sure, but at least throw us a "the Saints are better because..." or "the Saints will win next time because _________ will go differently." To assert NO is definitely better than Seattle after the Seahawks just embarrassed them doesn't make much sense

Ray does this sort of thing all the time. Next he'll be saying that we're "complaining" that he's putting a "different view" out there, all the while dodging your question.
   4472. theboyqueen Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:44 PM (#4614425)
What I mean is that people believe they are invincible at home, which is not the case in my view, and is why I think they are overrated.


And your evidence for this is what? The last time they lost there was two years ago. They completely destroyed two of your other top teams.

A worse mistake than "assuming what you saw last is what will come next" is believing you are smarter than Vegas. Those are some juicy 30:1 odds for your top team; you would be a fool not to take them.
   4473. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:48 PM (#4614430)
A worse mistake than "assuming what you saw last is what will come next" is believing you are smarter than Vegas.


Vegas is irrelevant here; Vegas aims to set the line at what they expect people to do. I fully agree that people think Seattle has a massive HFA, which is my point.
   4474. theboyqueen Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:54 PM (#4614438)
Per the Sagarin ratings Seattle at home is almost a 7 point favorite over the number two team. And that is with a generic home field advantage, not whatever theirs actually is.
   4475. theboyqueen Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:56 PM (#4614439)
I fully agree that people think Seattle has a massive HFA, which is my point.


People don't think they have a massive HFA, they actually do.
   4476. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 09, 2013 at 02:59 PM (#4614443)
Notice that Ray still hasn't answered why he thinks Seattle is so vastly overrated. But then Gods don't answer letters from lesser Gods, let alone questions from mere mortals.
   4477. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:06 PM (#4614448)
Notice that Ray still hasn't answered why he thinks Seattle is so vastly overrated. But then Gods don't answer letters from lesser Gods, let alone questions from mere mortals.


Andy, I looked at the games they played at home.

They beat Tennessee at home only 20-13.

They beat a crappy Jacksonville team 45-17.

They had to go to overtime to beat a crappy Tampa Bay 27-24.

They beat a crappy Minnesota team 41-20.

They had an impressive 34-7 win over the Saints, which is of course what you seized upon.

Yes, they beat San Fran 29-3 early in the season, but San Fran isn't as good as people expected. It was still a nice win.

Aside from that - and I never say this, but - go F yourself. You don't have to bring your insane vendetta against me into every thread. I wasn't being confrontational.
   4478. JJ1986 Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:21 PM (#4614462)
Can't you guys fight in some thread about steroids or whether player are actually robots? This is the only NFL thread.
   4479. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:23 PM (#4614464)
Seattle is wildly overrated.


Without looking I knew this was Ray.

I fully agree that people think Seattle has a massive HFA, which is my point.


They also have the best road record in the NFL.
   4480. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:37 PM (#4614479)
Can't you guys fight in some thread about steroids or whether player are actually robots? This is the only NFL thread.


I agree. I try not to fight in the NFL thread and I shouldn't have done that here. I apologize.
   4481. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:42 PM (#4614488)
Or you both could do the world a favor and put each other on ignore and just accept the fact you don't like each other and never will and move on with your lives.
   4482. Nasty Nate Posted: December 09, 2013 at 03:57 PM (#4614504)
They beat Tennessee at home only 20-13.

They beat a crappy Jacksonville team 45-17.

They had to go to overtime to beat a crappy Tampa Bay 27-24.

They beat a crappy Minnesota team 41-20.

They had an impressive 34-7 win over the Saints, which is of course what you seized upon.

Yes, they beat San Fran 29-3 early in the season, but San Fran isn't as good as people expected. It was still a nice win.


Not that it means much, but all the contenders except Denver have narrow victories against bad teams.
   4483. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:01 PM (#4614505)
Hell, New Orleans is two or three plays away from losing two to Atlanta this year.
   4484. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:04 PM (#4614510)
I don't think wins against Tennessee, Jacksonville, Tampa Bay, and Minnesota tell us much about Seattle's indestructability at home. I'm not saying they mean nothing -- obviously wins against any team are good -- but here we're talking about whether Seattle is an excellent team at home or an indestructible one. I think the distinction matters.
   4485. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:08 PM (#4614518)
Seattle has a larger-than-typical home field advantage (which probably has more to do with travel times and friendly officiating than the crowd), but they aren't invincible. How is this controversial? Can we move on now?
   4486. Kurt Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:09 PM (#4614519)
Not that it means much, but all the contenders except Denver have narrow victories against bad teams.


I think that bolster's Ray's point. He's not saying Seattle isn't a good team or a contender, he's saying they're not head and shoulders above everybody else. Part of that is, they have narrow victories over bad teams like the other contenders do.
   4487. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:10 PM (#4614523)
He's not saying Seattle isn't a good team or a contender, he's saying they're not head and shoulders above everybody else.


Which is a fine opinion to have but Ray hasn't offered any reason why beyond "because I think so."

Hell, New Orleans is two or three plays away from losing two to Atlanta this year.


They're also not as good as Seattle.
   4488. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:19 PM (#4614526)
They're also not as good as Seattle.


If last Monday was an example, certainly not. I'm not arguing that Seattle isn't the dank of the NFC.
   4489. Kurt Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:20 PM (#4614528)
Which is a fine opinion to have but Ray hasn't offered any reason why beyond "because I think so."


No argument there.
   4490. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:22 PM (#4614531)
I fully agree that people think Seattle has a massive HFA, which is my point.

They also have the best road record in the NFL.


This is no longer true after yesterday's loss. Both Philly(!) and KC are 5-1 on the road, Seattle is now 5-2.
   4491. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:24 PM (#4614534)
Both Philly(!) and KC are 5-1 on the road


As an Eagles fan, how the #### did I overlook that. I feel shame.
   4492. zenbitz Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:27 PM (#4614538)
Yes, they beat San Fran 29-3 early in the season, but San Fran isn't as good as people expected. It was still a nice win.


This game 5-0 at the half and SF had 5 turnovers (4 on Kaepernick). Not saying the game was close, but the defense played OK.

The reason you are wrong Ray is not because of who beat who, but rather if you look statistically at their per-play and per-game performance, correcting for strength of opposition, they are the best team in the NFL by a fair margin. Possibly NO thrashing Carolina (another very good team - who barely beat the Niners and barely lost to the hawks) might close the gap (in fact probably do close it if you don't count special teams - which is not unreasonable for forward looking predictions).

I suppose if you thought Seattle was Unvincible than then that would be overrating them - they are not one of the greatest 30 teams of all time or anything.

And @4482 - Weirdly, the niners have not had a close game against a bad team. Probably Tampa Bay will play them tough. They had big losses to Seattle and Indianapolis, and 2 close ones (4 points total) to the NFC South leaders.

One of the Niners 'leaked' that they studied the Titans/Seahawks game.

None of that says much about the Eagles who have only played 2 teams of note, Arizona (mentioned above) and yesterday in the snow (which is probably not predictive of much). Chip Kelly is not going to fool his old Pac-10 chums Carroll or Harbaugh though, and I suspect those teams have the personnel to stop the Eagles and certainly can score on them. Could be interesting though.
   4493. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:36 PM (#4614543)
Chip Kelly is not going to fool his old Pac-10 chums Carroll or Harbaugh though


Chip Kelly was 2-1 against them in college. He doesn't have to rely on fooling anyone.

   4494. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 09, 2013 at 04:48 PM (#4614553)
Apologies for the positivity, but it must be said that between the conference championship games on Saturday and the half-dozen or so real live snow games on Sunday (*), that was one hell of a quality sports weekend. King Football reigned.

(*) And, to a lesser extent, my continued wire-to-wire demolition of my fantasy football league (thank you, Peyton Manning).
   4495. zenbitz Posted: December 09, 2013 at 05:07 PM (#4614570)
Chip Kelly was 2-1 against them in college. He doesn't have to rely on fooling anyone.


.667 is well below Oregon's W/L under Kelly, isn't it? I guess though, USC never did beat him. Of course I am in effect asking the question "how much of the Eagles offensive success is due to unfamiliarity" (see for example, running QBs from 2012-2013). Harbaugh in particular seems to have his Xbox Madden perpetually set at "chew clock".
   4496. DA Baracus Posted: December 09, 2013 at 05:37 PM (#4614590)
.667 is well below Oregon's W/L under Kelly, isn't it?


That's a strange way to look at it. With three games there are only 4 possible outcomes for his record, and three of them are below his career W/L percentage.

"how much of the Eagles offensive success is due to unfamiliarity" (see for example, running QBs from 2012-2013).


Kelly has faced two teams twice this season, his only loss in those four games is when Matt Barkley had to play most of the game. He never lost to the same coach twice in college. Additionally, he no longer has a running QB.

Harbaugh in particular seems to have his Xbox Madden perpetually set at "chew clock".


Time of possession is overrated.
   4497. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: December 09, 2013 at 05:41 PM (#4614596)
Aside from that - and I never say this, but - go F yourself. You don't have to bring your insane vendetta against me into every thread. I wasn't being confrontational.

But neither was I. I was once again simply asking for your reasoning, which you've now provided above and below. If you'd done that in your original post, or in response to previous requests, I wouldn't have pulled out my shiv.

------------------------------------------------

I don't think wins against Tennessee, Jacksonville, Tampa Bay, and Minnesota tell us much about Seattle's indestructability at home. I'm not saying they mean nothing -- obviously wins against any team are good -- but here we're talking about whether Seattle is an excellent team at home or an indestructible one. I think the distinction matters.

That's fine, and it's not as if we're looking at the 1985 Bears or 1991 Redskins. I wrote that Settle will have a "crushing" HFA throughout the NFC playoffs, and I stand by that on the basis of their dominant home performances against their closest competitors (SF and NO), plus the noise factor of their home stadium which will only intensify in the playoffs. You still haven't told us why you rank the Saints or above them, given the recent destruction of the Saints on the same field they'll likely meet on if they should happen to confront each other again in the conference finals. Not saying it could never happen, since the Saints are a very good team, but it'd still rank as a semi-major upset.

As for the Eagles, that's kind of another mystery why you'd rate them above the Seahawks. They've certainly improved since Foles took over at QB and they're a reasonable long shot choice if he continues to improve and everything falls in place. But they've yet to beat a good team on the road, and that's where they'd almost certainly be playing Seattle if they get past the first round.
   4498. jmurph Posted: December 09, 2013 at 05:53 PM (#4614603)
So Shanahan is apparently mulling benching Griffin for the remainder of the season. Unless he's hurt (in which case this decision would be an obviously correct one), this is monumentally stupid. Griffin is probably not good enough to be a starting QB for the long haul, but if he is good enough, or if he is ever going to be good enough, wouldn't you think additional in-game reps would be the one way he could improve?
   4499. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: December 09, 2013 at 05:57 PM (#4614608)
I'd rank the NFC: PHI - NO - SEA - SF - CAR - DAL - DET

Seattle is wildly overrated.


If you really believe this and aren't just trolling, I think you're nuts.

Philly probably won't even make the playoffs, but even if they do, the 49ers will probably go in there and the 49ers are going to completely whip their ass.
   4500. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 09, 2013 at 06:07 PM (#4614622)
Griffin is obviously hurt, and has been all year. He should never have played this year at all. Now he's probably permanently ruined for it.

Based on recent disclosures, if Shanahan benches Griffin it'll be as a final \"#### you" to Dan Snyder before he cleans out his office.
Page 45 of 85 pages ‹ First  < 40 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Eugene Freedman
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 10-31-2014
(1 - 8:53am, Oct 31)
Last: Dan Lee is some pumkins

NewsblogNo, Alex Gordon wouldn't have scored an inside the park home run
(140 - 8:38am, Oct 31)
Last: Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site

NewsblogNewest Hall of Fame Candidates Announced
(53 - 8:37am, Oct 31)
Last: just plain joe

NewsblogFull Count » Red Sox sign Koji Uehara to 2-year contract
(14 - 8:35am, Oct 31)
Last: Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site

NewsblogBoston.com: Youk Retires
(2 - 8:34am, Oct 31)
Last: Random Transaction Generator

NewsblogFielding Bible
(3 - 8:07am, Oct 31)
Last: Harveys Wallbangers

NewsblogAngell: The Best
(19 - 7:29am, Oct 31)
Last: Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip

NewsblogOT: Politics, October 2014: Sunshine, Baseball, and Etch A Sketch: How Politicians Use Analogies
(4786 - 7:22am, Oct 31)
Last: Bitter Mouse

NewsblogThe Players' Tribune: Jeter: The Clean Up
(3 - 6:56am, Oct 31)
Last: villageidiom

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - October 2014
(631 - 6:39am, Oct 31)
Last: Norcan

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1960 Discussion
(10 - 6:15am, Oct 31)
Last: AndrewJ

NewsblogSend Alex Gordon! | FiveThirtyEight
(83 - 4:02am, Oct 31)
Last: Maxwn

NewsblogOT: NBC.news: Valve isn’t making one gaming console, but multiple ‘Steam machines’
(1021 - 1:53am, Oct 31)
Last: The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott)

NewsblogJoe Maddon is to become Cubs manager, sources say
(108 - 1:49am, Oct 31)
Last: Sunday silence

NewsblogThings we learned from the 2014 playoffs
(11 - 12:17am, Oct 31)
Last: bobm

Page rendered in 0.8203 seconds
55 querie(s) executed