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Tuesday, November 06, 2012

OT: NFL/NHL thread

i estimate that absolutely noone gives a damn about the NHL, so by folding that thread into this one, we won’t distract from what this thread is really about: boner pills, blood doping (is it low t?), and…jesus christ did mike vick just throw another ####### interception?

STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:03 AM | 7937 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nfl, nhl

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   501. McCoy Posted: December 10, 2012 at 02:11 AM (#4320670)
flip
   502. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 10, 2012 at 02:28 AM (#4320678)
Is Wisenhunt to blame for the Cardinals having no QB?


I would say the head coach is at least equally responsible for a team's QB situation, especially if like Wisenhunt he is an offensive coach. The Cardinals have been a mess at QB since Warner retired. Kolb didn't pan out, I can't entirely blame them for that, but they've always had really shitty backups when better ones were available such as Tarvaris Jackson, Matt Moore, Tyler Thigpen, Kellen Clemens, guys like that who at least had some period of success in the NFL rather than the collection of 5th and 6th rounders and UDFAs they've trotted out to no avail. Or you know, actually drafted someone high. Although with the horrid state of their offensive line it might not have mattered.
   503. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 10, 2012 at 02:30 AM (#4320679)
Do running QBs like Robert Griffin have long, productive careers? It seems they're always battling injury due to their style of play.


Exactly right. The chatter about how we can already speculate that Luck and Griffin could be the best 1-2 draft picks ever was baffling. Bill Simmons was already saying it was unfair to judge Griffin's 6-6 record because one of his losses would have been a win if he hadn't gotten hurt. That's what you get when you draft Griffin! You get the risk of injuries! He's always running around and bashing heads with people and getting tripped and knocked around. Fantastic, you've got yourself the new Michael Vick.
   504. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: December 10, 2012 at 02:30 AM (#4320680)
Do running QBs like Robert Griffin have long, productive careers? It seems they're always battling injury due to their style of play.


I guess we're going to find out. Has Newton been banged up yet? Oddly enough, unless I'm forgetting some carry or otherwise, the only time Tebow was injured while playing QB was in the pocket against UK when he took a shot to the head.
   505. Howie Menckel Posted: December 10, 2012 at 02:39 AM (#4320684)

"Fantastic, you've got yourself the new Michael Vick."

Well, they are both black, and can run, so there's that.

But their throwing ability - not a lot of comparison there.

And Griffin has roughly double the IQ, which also might matter down the road.

Griffin has a lot to learn - and there's little reason to think he can't learn it.
   506. Tripon Posted: December 10, 2012 at 02:43 AM (#4320687)
Exactly right. The chatter about how we can already speculate that Luck and Griffin could be the best 1-2 draft picks ever was baffling. Bill Simmons was already saying it was unfair to judge Griffin's 6-6 record because one of his losses would have been a win if he hadn't gotten hurt. That's what you get when you draft Griffin! You get the risk of injuries! He's always running around and bashing heads with people and getting tripped and knocked around. Fantastic, you've got yourself the new Michael Vick.


Randall Cunningham played for 16 seasons, threw 29979 yards, ran for 4928 yards, and led the league in rushing for QBs twice. Pretending that running QBs don't last as long as 'traditional' QBs is missing the point. It is football, and QBs will get injured. Nobody claimed that Tom Brady had to change his style after he blew up his knee in 2009.
   507. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: December 10, 2012 at 03:02 AM (#4320694)
If only Theismann knew how to get out of the pocket.
   508. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 10, 2012 at 08:44 AM (#4320738)
After Kolb went down, it was clear that whomever Wisenhunt put in was not going to be good, which is the head coach fault for not preparing them.


I tend to think that even if you teamed Bill Walsh up with Vince Lombardi they couldn't turn Skelton and Lindley into passable QBs.

better ones were available such as Tarvaris Jackson, Matt Moore, Tyler Thigpen, Kellen Clemens,


I'm not sure any of those guys should be in the same sentence as "better" unless the sentence is "Better avoid QBs such as..."
   509. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: December 10, 2012 at 09:22 AM (#4320749)
Cardinals should've drafted Nick Foles or Kirk Cousins.
   510. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: December 10, 2012 at 09:35 AM (#4320757)
Nobody claimed that Tom Brady had to change his style after he blew up his knee in 2009.


That's because Tom Brady's style doesn't rely on his running ability. Come on, that's ridiculous.

Randall Cunningham reinvented himself and stayed effective well into this 30s, but quarterbacks that run a lot get hurt a lot, almost invariably. Cunningham got hurt a lot when he was young. Steve Young got hurt a lot and retired early, Steve McNair was constantly hurt and retired early, Vick got hurt a lot, Vince Young got hurt a lot. The only exception I can think of, the only running quarterback who played five-plus years and never got hurt, was Kordell Stewart.

So maybe Newton or Griffin will be an exception. I doubt it.
   511. BDC Posted: December 10, 2012 at 09:45 AM (#4320762)
I'm old enough to hear "running quarterback" and think of Fran Tarkenton, who played forever. But Tarkenton ran away from people, not forward into tacklers. Still less did he pitch it to his flanker and run receiving routes downfield :)
   512. zack Posted: December 10, 2012 at 10:43 AM (#4320796)
Was Flutie ever hurt? He played to 43. I don't know how the relative impact of CFL games or the time off from losing his job to undeserving, taller QBs plays into it.
   513. JJ1986 Posted: December 10, 2012 at 10:47 AM (#4320798)
Newton and Tebow and Slash are huge guys. I'd guess that helps them withstand injury better than slimmer QBs like Vick and Griffin.
   514. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: December 10, 2012 at 12:04 PM (#4320863)
Would you consider Donovan McNabb a running QB? He had a reasonably long career, although it seems he faded fast at the end.
   515. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 10, 2012 at 12:07 PM (#4320868)
McNabb was absolutely a running QB his first few years. He matured into a pocket passer that scrambles as the team around him got better. RGIII can become that.

I'm not sure any of those guys should be in the same sentence as "better" unless the sentence is "Better avoid QBs such as..."


Those QBs are better than Ryan Lindley, Richard Bartel and Max Hall.
   516. Tripon Posted: December 10, 2012 at 12:13 PM (#4320874)

That's because Tom Brady's style doesn't rely on his running ability. Come on, that's ridiculous.


Not really. Tom Brady's style depends on him having enough time to make throws. Staying in the pocket and taking a chance to get hit is extremely dangerous for injuries.

Kolb got his legs injured this year, Tim Tebow had a rib injury. So did Big Ben, so did John Skelton, so did Michael Vick, and Alex Smith. Blaine Gabbert, just about in the pocket guy in the NFL today is out of the season with an injury.

QBs despite the NFL's insistence that they be protected still suffer injuries.
   517. JJ1986 Posted: December 10, 2012 at 12:15 PM (#4320877)
More likely:

Blaine Gabbert, just about in the pocket guy in the NFL today is out of the season with an inability to throw the football.


   518. Nasty Nate Posted: December 10, 2012 at 12:21 PM (#4320887)
Not really. Tom Brady's style depends on him having enough time to make throws. Staying in the pocket and taking a chance to get hit is extremely dangerous for injuries.


A lot of his plays are quick passes that don't depend on much time at all.
   519. Tripon Posted: December 10, 2012 at 12:28 PM (#4320901)


A lot of his plays are quick passes that don't depend on much time at all.


And yet he still missed an entire season due to injury. Funny how that works. Saying that RGIII's style of play is more at risk of injury and Tom Brady isn't when Brady is the one who already has missed significant time due to injuries doesn't tell me that RGIII will have a more difficult time to succeed. It tells me that the NFL is a vicious sport that will take down its best and brightest.

Lets pick a different player, Peyton Manning. Doesn't run at all, missed an entire season due to 3 different neck surgery obviously due to playing QB in the pocket. Nobody is saying he had to change his style of play.
   520. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 10, 2012 at 12:38 PM (#4320915)
It tells me that the NFL is a vicious sport that will take down its best and brightest.


This. There are 11 guys paid handsomely to attempt to murder the opposing quarterback, regardless of what style of game that QB runs. The only way to prevent your QB from getting injured is to hand the ball off to the running back on every down. The only "safe" QBs are "game managers."
   521. Nasty Nate Posted: December 10, 2012 at 12:40 PM (#4320916)
And yet he still missed an entire season due to injury. Funny how that works. Saying that RGIII's style of play is more at risk of injury and Tom Brady isn't when Brady is the one who already has missed significant time due to injuries doesn't tell me that RGIII will have a more difficult time to succeed. It tells me that the NFL is a vicious sport that will take down its best and brightest.

Lets pick a different player, Peyton Manning. Doesn't run at all, missed an entire season due to 3 different neck surgery obviously due to playing QB in the pocket. Nobody is saying he had to change his style of play.


That's a weird way to look at it. Brady has "already" missed significant time? He was in his 8th year before he missed a single start, and Griffin is on the verge of missing one in his first season. Peyton went more than a decade before missing one. Overall, he has missed less than 7% of his teams' games in his career. Griffin will be higher than that if he doesn't play next sunday.
   522. Tripon Posted: December 10, 2012 at 12:43 PM (#4320918)

That's a weird way to look at it. Brady has "already" missed significant time? He was in his 8th year before he missed a single start, and Griffin is on the verge of missing one in his first season. Peyton went more than a decade before missing one. Overall, he has missed less than 7% of his teams' games in his career. Griffin will be higher than that if he doesn't play next sunday.


Three words in regards to Griffin. Small sample size. And that assumes that Griffin will miss the game, I doubt it. They're in a playoff push, and its only a sprain. He's playing, and playing hurt is definately different from missing the game because of an injury.
   523. JJ1986 Posted: December 10, 2012 at 12:46 PM (#4320922)
Griffin already missed half a game this year.
   524. McCoy Posted: December 10, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4320924)
QBs get hurt. Putting your body at greater risk by running around is just going to make it more likely you get hurt. Saying RGIII isn't going to get hurt because RGIII is somehow special is taking the position with unlikely odds.
   525. Tripon Posted: December 10, 2012 at 12:50 PM (#4320925)
Yes, and a regular tradtional QB like Jay Cutler has never missed half a game due to an injury. Like say a concussion because he was attempting an illegal forward pass before the end of the first half.

Oh wait, that happened.
   526. Nasty Nate Posted: December 10, 2012 at 12:53 PM (#4320926)
Three words in regards to Griffin. Small sample size.


You are trying to have it both ways. When you were giving Griffin credit for not missing "significant" time, you had no qualms about the small sample.
   527. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 10, 2012 at 12:53 PM (#4320927)
And yet he still missed an entire season due to injury. Funny how that works. Saying that RGIII's style of play is more at risk of injury and Tom Brady isn't when Brady is the one who already has missed significant time due to injuries doesn't tell me that RGIII will have a more difficult time to succeed. It tells me that the NFL is a vicious sport that will take down its best and brightest.


This is silly. "Brady is the one who already missed significant time due to injuries"? Brady has been in the league for 12 years. Griffin has been in the league for 12 games. And is already dealing with a worrisome injury situation.

And yet, Brady has missed just one season, has been generally healthy, has generally been at the top of his game. Any sane rookie QB would sign for that without hesitation.

Lets pick a different player, Peyton Manning. Doesn't run at all, missed an entire season due to 3 different neck surgery obviously due to playing QB in the pocket. Nobody is saying he had to change his style of play.


Oh, he missed "an entire season"? He has been in the league for 15 years (!). And has pretty much made every start except for the one season - didn't he set a consecutive games record for QBs? - and has been healthy and effective otherwise, even on his return.

Come on.
   528. JJ1986 Posted: December 10, 2012 at 12:54 PM (#4320929)
didn't he set a consecutive games record for QBs?


He got to second. Brett is miles ahead of everyone else.
   529. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 10, 2012 at 12:56 PM (#4320931)
He got to second. Brett is miles ahead of everyone else.


Ok. And if Peyton Manning is an example of an injury-prone quarterback, then there is only one quarterback in history - Favre - who has not been injury prone.
   530. JJ1986 Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:01 PM (#4320934)
AFAICT, Jay Cutler missed time in one of his first 56 games in the league before the Bears offensive line made him into a human pinata.
   531. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4320939)
Why are you only looking at missing an entire season? Vick's had one full season, Roethlisberger and Cutler who are mobile are continually banged up and their teams suffer greatly when those three are out.
   532. Tripon Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:03 PM (#4320940)

You are trying to have it both ways. When you were giving Griffin credit for not missing "significant" time, you had no qualms about the small sample.


Sure, and that's because both Peyton and Brady played a lot longer.
Nobody is claiming Russell Wilson is an injury risk despite him having the ability to run if he wanted to.


Oh, he missed "an entire season"? He has been in the league for 15 years (!). And has pretty much made every start except for the one season - didn't he set a consecutive games record for QBs? - and has been healthy and effective otherwise, even on his return.

Come on.


Yeah, and guess what, Peyton was certainly playing hurt in some of those games, and required off season surgeries to help heal whatever aliments he had. Brett Farve was famously addicted to painkillers for years to help keep him in the game that would probably stop him from playing if he wasn't taking them. So do we care about injuries or just injuries that knock people out of the game?
   533. Tripon Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:10 PM (#4320948)

Ok. And if Peyton Manning is an example of an injury-prone quarterback, then there is only one quarterback in history - Favre - who has not been injury prone.


No, everyone is injury prone, because everyone is at the potential of suffering an injury. Its the NFL, you're not fast enough to outrun everybody, you're not quick enough to evade everyone, you're not tough enough to power though all the hits. The men who play the game are physical specimens that are probably 0.01% of the population able to play football at this level. But that doesn't mean they can't break their bodies. In fact, its the opposite, their bodies will break down, and its just a matter of 'when', not 'if'.
   534. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:11 PM (#4320950)
Love watching him run it, and wish it weren't so, but if you run the option and zone read in the pros and do anything but slide, you're going to get killed -- which is why pro teams don't run those things.

RGIII's already taken a beating on open-field hits. He isn't going to last doing it.
   535. Nasty Nate Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:13 PM (#4320954)
No, everyone is injury prone, because everyone is at the potential of suffering an injury. Its the NFL, you're not fast enough to outrun everybody, you're not quick enough to evade everyone, you're not tough enough to power though all the hits. The men who play the game are physical specimens that are probably 0.01% of the population able to play football at this level. But that doesn't mean they can't break their bodies. In fact, its the opposite, their bodies will break down, and its just a matter of 'when', not 'if'.


Just because all quarterbacking is dangerous doesn't mean that every style of quarterbacking has an equal level of danger.
   536. Tripon Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4320957)

Just because all quarterbacking is dangerous doesn't mean that every style of quarterbacking has an equal level of danger.


But just how do you know RGIII's style is more dangerous than the 'conventional' style? Don't tell me because you're watching the games.
   537. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:19 PM (#4320959)
But just how do you know RGIII's style is more dangerous than the 'conventional' style? Don't tell me because you're watching the games.


You really think the QB who holds on to the ball longer is not at a higher level of risk as the QB who gets it out quickly?
   538. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:22 PM (#4320963)
But just how do you know RGIII's style is more dangerous than the 'conventional' style

Because he runs the ball and takes huge hits. How is this even controversial?
   539. Tripon Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:25 PM (#4320966)
You really think the QB who holds on to the ball longer is not at a higher level of risk as the QB who gets it out quickly?


Somebody tell Blaine Gabbert he should have never have made that rushing attempt.
   540. Nasty Nate Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:27 PM (#4320968)
But just how do you know RGIII's style is more dangerous than the 'conventional' style? Don't tell me because you're watching the games.


We can compare past quarterbacks with different styles. Even the rushing quarterback (Cunningham) you mentioned as a counterpoint in #206 missed way more time for injury than the guys you chose as examples of non-running QB's who got hurt (Brady and Manning).
   541. Tripon Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4320969)
Because he runs the ball and takes huge hits. How is this even controversial?


Because you can take huge hits in the pocket! Even with a fast release! There's no magical way to protect the QB from injury, stopping him from running the field isn't going to limit it to a point, but just to a point. RGIII or any other running QB isn't more injury prone than Jay Cutler, or Kevin Kolb or Alex Smith.
   542. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:31 PM (#4320973)
Because you can take huge hits in the pocket! Even with a fast release! There's no magical way to protect the QB from injury


No one is arguing that. We are saying that QBs who scramble and run are at greater risk.
   543. SoSH U at work Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4320979)
I'd really like to see some data on QB injuries - where they're suffered, and the likelihood each type of play (in pocket, out of pocket, rushing attempt) before I'd make any firm deterinations on danger levels.

As a Colts fan, I'd say Peyton Manning has been mostly injury-free because he does a really good job of not getting hit (mostly due to his incredible sense of how long he has to throw, not necessarily stellar line play). Brady probably has some of that sense as well, though to a slightly lesser degree, since he's a slightly lesser quarterback. (-:

But not all pocket quarterbacks are good at avoiding hits, and I imagine the hit in the pocket is more likely to cause serious injury (due to the player not usually being in a position to protect himself) than a running play where the QB is able to act more like a RB. However, the latter style exposes one to more hits than the former.

For example, it appears Michael Vick's most recent injury, a concussion, was suffered because he was hit on a blitz while standing in the pocket. That's not a data point about the dangers of being a running quarterback, though it looks that way if we just count the number of games Mike Vick has missed.

Like I said, I'd be interested in seeing some hard data on QB injuries.
   544. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4320982)
Because he runs the ball and takes huge hits. How is this even controversial?


No idea.
   545. Nasty Nate Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4320999)
But not all pocket quarterbacks are good at avoiding hits, and I imagine the hit in the pocket is more likely to cause serious injury (due to the player not usually being in a position to protect himself) than a running play where the QB is able to act more like a RB. However, the latter style exposes one to more hits than the former.


Running quarterbacks get both kinds of hits, even if they are slightly better at avoiding the hits in the pocket (e.g. your Vick example).
   546. Tom Nawrocki Posted: December 10, 2012 at 01:58 PM (#4321004)
As a Colts fan, I'd say Peyton Manning has been mostly injury-free because he does a really good job of not getting hit (mostly due to his incredible sense of how long he has to throw, not necessarily stellar line play).


It's funny how Manning absolutely refuses to get hit. I was at the Broncos-Bucs game last week, and there were a couple of times that Manning had rolled out and had a clear path to a first down if he took off and ran - but threw the ball away instead. He just has no interest in getting tackled.

I'm not criticizing him for this, because obviously a healthy Peyton Manning is more important to the Broncos' fortunes than any single first down would be. Basically, unless you have rushers in his face within about 2.5 seconds, Peyton Manning is not getting tackled.
   547. SoSH U at work Posted: December 10, 2012 at 02:05 PM (#4321013)
Running quarterbacks get both kinds of hits, even if they are slightly better at avoiding the hits in the pocket (e.g. your Vick example).


Sure, but a running QB may spend less time in the pocket, thereby reducing his risk of that type of hit. There's a fixed number of plays in a game (probably fewer in a game with more running plays). If you're comparing one guy who throws 45 times to another guy who throws 30 and runs 15, then they're both involved in the same number of plays with injury-potential. Just because the running QB can be injured on two different types of hits (the pocket hit, the open-field hit), doesn't mean automatically mean he's more at risk.

   548. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 10, 2012 at 02:08 PM (#4321022)
Just because the running QB can be injured on two different types of hits (the pocket hit, the open-field hit), doesn't mean automatically mean he's more at risk.


The question is whether you have a greater chance getting injured in the pocket or in the open field. I'm a bit surprised people are having a problem saying that it's the latter. Even though there's the slide rule, rushing QBs can't account for every player coming at them and so still take hits, and even still take hits sometimes when sliding.
   549. SoSH U at work Posted: December 10, 2012 at 02:09 PM (#4321023)
It's funny how Manning absolutely refuses to get hit. I was at the Broncos-Bucs game last week, and there were a couple of times that Manning had rolled out and had a clear path to a first down if he took off and ran - but threw the ball away instead. He just has no interest in getting tackled.


He hever has been interested. You can probably count the number of defenders shaken off on one hand, and he won't hesitate to go full turtle if the sack is inevitable.

Interestingly, his favorite receiver for years was pretty much the same way. Marvin Harrison had no problem going to the ground rather than risk the big blow-up hit.

And I saluted them both for their wisdom. And their productivity.

   550. SoSH U at work Posted: December 10, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4321028)
The question is whether you have a greater chance getting injured in the pocket or in the open field. I'm a bit surprised people are having a problem saying that it's the latter. Even though there's the slide rule, rushing QBs can't account for every player coming at them and so still take hits, and even still take hits sometimes when sliding.


I suspect that on a per-hit basis, the pocket hit is far more dangerous to a quarterback than one on a running play (not so sure about out-of-pocket passing plays, which are likely the most dangerous play for a QB, combining the inability to protect oneself with faster-moving defenders coming from less predictable directions).

On a per-play basis, the running QB takes far more hits than a pocket QB.

How the (possibly) superior rate of the former and the superior volume of the latter combine to create an overall injury risk level is what I'd like to see in the data.
   551. Nasty Nate Posted: December 10, 2012 at 02:19 PM (#4321033)
There's a fixed number of plays in a game (probably fewer in a game with more running plays). If you're comparing one guy who throws 45 times to another guy who throws 30 and runs 15, then they're both involved in the same number of plays with injury-potential.


Right but those 15 running plays have a much higher change of the QB being tackled/hit than 15 passing plays.

And I'm not sure if I am right, but I would guess that a lot of the QB running plays are being run in place of RB running plays, not instead of passing plays. I.E. it's not 45 compared to 30/15, but 45 compared to 40/15. Is this true?
   552. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 10, 2012 at 02:21 PM (#4321037)
tom

brett favre took the same approach the last decade of his career. the most painful moment relating to that is the infamous 4th and 26 eagles game where favre slid for a first down only to come up a half yard short on 3rd down leaving the packers with a 4th down where coach mike sherman made the choice to punt instead of running the ball behind his world class offensive line with a running back that had gained 1883 yards for the regular season and 156 in the game against an exhausted eagles defensive line and oh by the way said running back had converted umpteen 3rd and 4th and short yardage situations in a row but because his offneisve linemen tripped at the goal line at the end of the first half the coach got wobbly

not that this game irks packer fans or anything
   553. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 10, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4321047)
They still could have won that game if Favre didn't arm punt the ball to Brian Dawkins. The 4th and 26 play only set up a game tying FG.
   554. SoSH U at work Posted: December 10, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4321051)
And I'm not sure if I am right, but I would guess that a lot of the QB running plays are being run in place of RB running plays, not instead of passing plays. I.E. it's not 45 compared to 30/15, but 45 compared to 40/15. Is this true?


RTG has attempted 351 passes and rushed 112 times this year (total of 463).

Peyton Manning has attempted 480 passes.

Tom Brady has attempted 460.

All pretty similar numbers. Of course, Griffin has been sacked 28 times to Brady's and Manning's 19, which is more troublesome.

Then again, Jay Cutler, more of a Brady type than a Griffin, has been sacked 31 (despite missing time), showing, as Vick does, that the true threat to a quarterback's health is not his style of play, but the competence of his offensive line.

   555. JJ1986 Posted: December 10, 2012 at 02:30 PM (#4321052)
I think running QBs will hold the ball much longer in general (on passing plays) because they are looking to either run or pass. That makes them much more likely to get sacked behind the line.
   556. Nasty Nate Posted: December 10, 2012 at 02:33 PM (#4321062)
RTG has attempted 351 passes and rushed 112 times this year (total of 463).

Peyton Manning has attempted 480 passes.

Tom Brady has attempted 460.

All pretty similar numbers.


Thanks. Yeah, I just looked too and saw that the running QB's had less pass attempts.
   557. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 10, 2012 at 03:14 PM (#4321115)
da

not to rehash the game but sherman not going for it on 4th and a half yard at the eagles 40 is the definitive example of why risk aversion is a terrible guiding principle

again:

--tremendous offensive line
--great (in his day) running back
--running back that excelled at short yardage situations
--exhausted and undersized defensive line
--if you get the first down the game is over, eagles were out of timeouts
--playing on the road, you should be taking such risks

it was a great game and there were many amazing moments. but mike sherman folding his hand with a full house kings over tens was the single biggest blunder i can recall in packer coaching history
   558. Tripon Posted: December 10, 2012 at 03:31 PM (#4321127)
All NHL games cancelled until Dec. 30th.
   559. stanmvp48 Posted: December 10, 2012 at 03:33 PM (#4321129)
Speaking of risk aversion:

Yesterday the Saints had 4th and two on the Giants 7 with two minutes left in the half, trailing 14-10. Incredibly the kicked the field goal. Less surprisingly NY ran the kick off back to the 32 and scored in the two minutes they wouldn't have had if NO had gotten a first down. Totally supported by the morons in the TV booth, it goes without saying, who never said a word when it worked out badly.
   560. zack Posted: December 10, 2012 at 05:17 PM (#4321225)
If you ever had even a single doubt that Gary Bettman is the worst commissioner in sports, just look at the last graph on this page.
   561. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 10, 2012 at 05:54 PM (#4321262)
If you ever had even a single doubt that Gary Bettman is the worst commissioner in sports, just look at the last graph on this page.

Awful. Terrible in almost every particular -- Southern expansion, collapse of offense, concussion problem, personal douchiness.

That said, unless there are things we aren't hearing, there's no way the sides are far enough apart to kill the season. There'll be 48-50 games, starting in January.
   562. Petunia inquires about ponies Posted: December 10, 2012 at 06:02 PM (#4321271)
What really struck me watching the Skins/Ravens game was actually how frequently Griffin gets hit hard when he DOESN'T run. Seems like it's due to this 'pistol'/zone read system they put together for him, which most of the time means he doesn't have his head up reading the rush for ~1-2 seconds after the snap. Which is just deadly.

I mean, how many times did it go 1) 'pistol' snap, 2) fake to the back, 3) quick pass, 4) BLAM! Griffin gets planted, 5) completion. Seemed like many.
   563. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: December 10, 2012 at 06:04 PM (#4321272)
JaMarcus Russell is still available.
   564. Tripon Posted: December 10, 2012 at 06:16 PM (#4321279)

That said, unless there are things we aren't hearing, there's no way the sides are far enough apart to kill the season. There'll be 48-50 games, starting in January.


Really? Its the owners who pretty much want to win on all terms. They're the ones issuing the lock out. They can't even put out an united front when dealing with themselves, and a lot of it has to do with the way Gary Bettman operates. Say a lot of things about Selig, but he's very good at making sure the owners are at least on the same page before something major happens.
   565. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 10, 2012 at 06:33 PM (#4321294)
What really struck me watching the Skins/Ravens game was actually how frequently Griffin gets hit hard when he DOESN'T run. Seems like it's due to this 'pistol'/zone read system they put together for him, which most of the time means he doesn't have his head up reading the rush for ~1-2 seconds after the snap. Which is just deadly.

I mean, how many times did it go 1) 'pistol' snap, 2) fake to the back, 3) quick pass, 4) BLAM! Griffin gets planted, 5) completion. Seemed like many.
that's actually exactly what should happen when you run that kind of zone-read/option offense against an NFL caliber defense. against poorer teams, with poorer coaching, you'll get a lot of indecision in trying to defend the option, but when you have a good defense, with good coaching, the players know that their first objective is to kill the quarterback and force the pitch, and then from there, the teammates need to clean up.

but if you watch these highlight reel runs by newton, by griffin, what you'll notice is that the defensive end freezes when the quarterback makes his fake, and that should not ever happen.
   566. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 10, 2012 at 06:39 PM (#4321297)
Really? Its the owners who pretty much want to win on all terms. They're the ones issuing the lock out. They can't even put out an united front when dealing with themselves, and a lot of it has to do with the way Gary Bettman operates. Say a lot of things about Selig, but he's very good at making sure the owners are at least on the same page before something major happens.
as i posted a while back, i am fairly sure that it only takes 6 (out of 30) owners to block any labor agreement, so it's very easy for the hardliners to railroad any potential deal.

and i don't know how anyone can be optimistic about there being an NHL season until players are actually on the ice and playing in an NHL uniform, on NHL ice, in front of an NHL crowd.
   567. Copronymus Posted: December 10, 2012 at 07:08 PM (#4321310)
as i posted a while back, i am fairly sure that it only takes 6 (out of 30) owners to block any labor agreement, so it's very easy for the hardliners to railroad any potential deal.


Even easier since it's come out that the 6 guys on the negotiating committee are the only owners who have any idea what's actually going on. Bettman's strategy for owner control is just keeping a tight rein on those guys and making sure that everyone else shuts up (see that massive fine he gave the Red Wings when some VP shot his mouth off).

I continue to be confounded that this is still going on given how close the numbers are, but I think the difference between the two sides is still a little more than it would have cost the NFL to avoid the replacement refs debacle, and definitely a larger percentage of league revenue, so it might not be the dumbest sports labor dispute of 2012.
   568. The Ghost fouled out, but stays in the game Posted: December 10, 2012 at 10:12 PM (#4321407)
Patriots are taking it to the Texans.
   569. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 10, 2012 at 10:24 PM (#4321414)
There may have been some debate a few weeks ago but the Patriots are clearly the best team right now.
   570. Tripon Posted: December 10, 2012 at 10:28 PM (#4321420)
RGIII with the mild foot sprain.
   571. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 10, 2012 at 10:35 PM (#4321422)
There may have been some debate a few weeks ago but the Patriots are clearly the best team right now.


They didn't play anyone good in their 6 game win streak, but damn this is a beat down. They play SF next week, that could be ugly too.

A Houston loss tonight means the Colts control their own destiny for the division title. Wow.
   572. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 10, 2012 at 11:14 PM (#4321459)
They play SF next week, that could be ugly too.

I think the Niners have a less than 15% chance to win the game. You're not going to beat the Pats at home with an inexperienced QB. That said, I don't think the Niners defense can be embarrassed to the point that it will get ugly. I just think there's too much talent.
   573. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 10, 2012 at 11:59 PM (#4321494)
I think the Niners have a less than 15% chance to win the game. You're not going to beat the Pats at home with an inexperienced QB. That said, I don't think the Niners defense can be embarrassed to the point that it will get ugly. I just think there's too much talent.


I don't know about 15% but I agree. And now Kaepernick has four starts on tape, the league is going to start to figure things out. They face New England, Seattle and Arizona the rest of the way, three well coached defenses (yesterday not withstanding for Arizona, other than that game they have been really good.)
   574. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 11, 2012 at 12:10 AM (#4321502)
A Houston loss tonight means the Colts control their own destiny for the division title. Wow.

They play each other two times in the last three weeks?! That is bizarre scheduling.
   575. smileyy Posted: December 11, 2012 at 01:30 AM (#4321533)
[570] That's a foot sprain only if the team doctors are graduates of the Hollywood Upstairs School of Medicine. (

Or there's a joke I'm missing. The LCL is a knee ligament.
   576. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 01:55 AM (#4321544)
it wouldn't take much for Indy and Houston to play in the postseason as well in a 4 v 5 game.
   577. SoSH U at work Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:19 AM (#4321553)
The only way the Colts are going to beat the Texans is if the game means nothing to Houston.
   578. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:37 AM (#4321559)
Are people still seriously arguing that the Patriots are not the best team in the NFL? People think San Fran or Houston is better?

10-3, +198 point differential, next highest at +132, just blew out the 11-1 Texans...
   579. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:52 AM (#4321562)
Are people still seriously arguing that the Patriots are not the best team in the NFL?


Who's arguing that now? A month ago it was a fair position to take. Today, not so much.
   580. zenbitz Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:52 AM (#4321563)
I think the Niners have a less than 15% chance to win the game. You're not going to beat the Pats at home with an inexperienced QB. That said, I don't think the Niners defense can be embarrassed to the point that it will get ugly. I just think there's too much talent.


That seems... low. I mean, the Cardinals beat them with Kevin Kolb. They are probably less than 6 point favorites.

That being said... there I would not be surprised at all Belichick and Co. take Harbaugh and Roman to the game planning & scheme woodshed.
What is true that the Niners don't have a prayer if they don't get a tremendous pass rush on Brady. They have to do so without blitzing, and they have to cover the backs/TE with linebackers AND they have to stop the run in their nickle. Oh, and tackle Welker. So, hey no problem. I think that if they are playing well, the Niners defense can hold New England to <28. The Cardinals, Seahawks, Dolphins and Jets (well, in regulation) all did this, and I think the Niners defense is better and possibly more suited to play the Patriots.

So, can the Niners offense score enough to keep up? I this is where the coaching comes in. If they fall behind by 2 TDs and have to throw on every down, they are toast
   581. zenbitz Posted: December 11, 2012 at 02:57 AM (#4321565)
Let's be clear - I am not saying that the Niners are better.

I think they have more than a 15% chance, though. Maybe 35-40%.
   582. zenbitz Posted: December 11, 2012 at 03:01 AM (#4321567)
Prior to this week, the top 5 teams by DVOA were NE, DEN, SF, (gap) SEA (gap) GB. After this week, it's likely NE, SEA (gap) DEN, SF, GB.
   583. MHS Posted: December 11, 2012 at 09:39 AM (#4321633)
It's suprising NE was able to move he ball as well as it did with these "skill" psi stood players getting so many snaps:
TE Michael Hoomanawanui – 43 of 73
WR Donte’ Stallworth – 20 of 73
WR Matthew Slater – 11 of 73
TE Daniel Fells – 9 of 73
TE Visanthe Shiancoe – 8 of 73

The good Sabastian Vollmer will need to return for the 9'ers game, getting the run game back on track will be critical if the above floatsum is going to continue to get meaningful playing time.
   584. zenbitz Posted: December 11, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4322132)
Slightly different (although Niners related topic) - thought I would run this past the peanut gallery/intelligensia here:

Scuttlebutt is that the Niners will cut or trade Alex Smith after the season. This seems pretty obvious, although a bad few weeks or from or injurty to, Kaepernick could change this pretty fast.

Smith is signed for 2013 (only), for $8M pretty much all guaranteed. His salary ($7M) counts against the cap starting April 1st, 2013. Prior to that the Niners (and their cap) have to eat a $1M roster bonus if he is not cut before April 12th.


It's a little hard to find salary data for all NFL QBs in one neat package... but his salary for 2013 seems "reasonable" for a starter and insane for a backup.

Given this data - does Smith have *any* trade value at all? Sure he's reasonably solid and would be an upgrade for a dozen teams and a MAJOR upgrade for 6 or so... but why would you pay for the exclusive rights to pay Alex Smith $7M guaranteed?

I guess *maybe* if someone thought he was a great fit and gauged there was interest from multiple teams, they would cough up like a 5th rounder for him.
   585. zenbitz Posted: December 11, 2012 at 04:32 PM (#4322136)
Apparently before Mondays' game the Niners-Patriots opened at about -3 (NE, natch) but has since jumped to -5/-6 which seems about right.
   586. DKDC Posted: December 11, 2012 at 06:23 PM (#4322295)
Although I seemed to have missed the RG3 conversation, three points I’d make:

1. It seems pretty obvious to me that RG3’s style of play invites more contact and more violent contact than most QBs. The option requires him to abandon the safety of the pocket and hold onto the ball longer, he executes fakes that are designed to draw defenders to him, and he doesn’t shy from contact when he’s a runner.

2. I think Griffin can limit a lot of this contact without losing too much effectiveness. When I think of the three biggest hits that RG3 has taken this year, it’s been the two that knocked him out of the game, and a play against the Giants at the end of the fourth quarter where he wanted to stay in bounds. In all three, he ran into contact for one reason or another, and that is just not something that he can sustain over the long term with his build.

3. Most importantly, Griffin has the arm strength, accuracy, and ability to read defenses to be a special player from the pocket, which makes any Vick comparison (or, god forbid, any Tebow comparison) look pretty silly. He’s only played 13 games at the NFL and his game will mature. As he matures, I think he’ll rely more on the threat of his legs and you’ll see him slide and go out of bounds to avoid contact. There’s no reason to think he won’t be able to be very successful over the long run if he’s able to do that.
   587. zenbitz Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:05 PM (#4322399)
After this week, it's likely NE, SEA (gap) DEN, SF, GB.

Woot, I am a human DVOA machine!

These game out today:
NE +42%
SEA +39%
DEN +36%
SF +35%
GB +22% (chicago and NYG are close behind)

OK, I missed the gap between SF and Green Bay. Probably I overestimated their performace against Detroit.
   588. zenbitz Posted: December 11, 2012 at 08:27 PM (#4322423)
another thing to consider... that loss to the Patriots dropped the Texans chances for a 1st round bye all the way to 90.7% [coolstandings alert!] It was not a game they needed to win.
   589. Tripon Posted: December 12, 2012 at 04:57 PM (#4323312)
Robert Griffin III (knee) says he did "enough" in Wednesday's practice, and that he can plant and throw without issue.
He was officially limited. "I did enough to give myself the confidence to push it tomorrow and Friday," Griffin said after practice. Griffin also said he feels "a lot better" than he did Sunday night, and confirmed he'll wear a brace if he starts against the Browns. At this point, it's hard not to see him suiting up. Griffin's status will be updated no later than Thursday afternoon.
via rotoworld

So that's 7% of games missed in RGIII's career is now down to zero.
   590. Tripon Posted: December 13, 2012 at 07:35 PM (#4324317)
On Thursday's episode of ESPN's First Take, Rob Parker, a former Detroit News columnist, questioned Robert Griffin III's blackness.

"Is he a brother, or is he a cornball brother?" Parker asked.

His inquiry continued.

“He’s black, he kind of does his thing, but he’s not really down with the cause; he’s not one of us,” Parker said. “He’s kind of black, but he’s not really the kind of guy you want to hang out with 'cause he’s off to something else.”

Parker apparently questioned Griffin's race because the Washington Redskins' star is engaged to a white woman and is rumored to be a Republican.

The nature of the conversation made ESPN's Stephen A. Smith uneasy.

"I'm uncomfortable with where we just went," he said.

"RGIII, the ethnicity or the color of his fiancee is none of our business, it's irrelevant, he can live his life in whatever way he chooses. The braids that he has in his hair, that's his business, that's his life, he can live his life."


http://www.latimes.com/sports/sportsnow/la-sp-sn-espns-rob-parker-rgiii-20121213,0,3579202.story?track=rss&utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter&dlvrit=53285
   591. JJ1986 Posted: December 13, 2012 at 07:46 PM (#4324329)
Parker is obviously a joke, but this is just the kind of thing ESPN wants because people will talk about their show for days. The best thing to do is ignore it.
   592. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 13, 2012 at 08:45 PM (#4324360)
Pathetic.
   593. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4324914)
Agreeing with Stephen A. Smith makes me uneasy.
   594. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:25 PM (#4324936)
Agreeing with Stephen A. Smith makes me uneasy.
quite frankly, i'm outraged at the implication.
   595. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: December 14, 2012 at 03:55 PM (#4324975)
quite frankly, i'm outraged at the implication.

I see what you did there.
   596. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 16, 2012 at 12:29 AM (#4325865)
So that's 7% of games missed in RGIII's career is now down to zero.


The Redskins have announced that Kirk Cousins is starting.
   597. Mess with the Meat, you get the Wad! Posted: December 16, 2012 at 02:20 PM (#4326018)
and the refs completly missed hester calling timeout giving greenbay a first down....
   598. Mess with the Meat, you get the Wad! Posted: December 16, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4326023)
wow why does green bay keep that guy as the kicker? he missed it by about 25 feet (from the side of the upright)
   599. McCoy Posted: December 16, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4326029)
Bears still suck.
   600. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 16, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4326032)
It's 3rd and 1 and Micheal Turner is actually running the ball well. WTF is up with an empty backfield end-around?
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