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Tuesday, November 06, 2012

OT: NFL/NHL thread

i estimate that absolutely noone gives a damn about the NHL, so by folding that thread into this one, we won’t distract from what this thread is really about: boner pills, blood doping (is it low t?), and…jesus christ did mike vick just throw another ####### interception?

STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: November 06, 2012 at 12:03 AM | 7937 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nfl, nhl

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   901. BeanoCook Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:51 AM (#4335065)
The two best pass rushers in the NFL, some of the best ever, are 2nd year players, one left a year early too. Age 22 and 23. Your football prime is 20-25 and 2 or 3 of these years you are in college.

Younger players = better players.
   902. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:10 AM (#4335073)
The option completely embarrassing one of the best DEs in football (D Ware). So much for the NFL honks that said these offenses would never work.


Let's see if it sticks. The Wildcat was extremely effective in its first year, something like over 7 yards a play on average, then after two more seasons of teams doing it and defenses figuring it out, it was completely ineffective.

The two best pass rushers in the NFL, some of the best ever


Hyperbole.
   903. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:25 AM (#4335079)
Let's see if it sticks. The Wildcat was extremely effective in its first year, something like over 7 yards a play on average, then after two more seasons of teams doing it and defenses figuring it out, it was completely ineffective.


I think there's a big difference between installing a 'package' which likely isn't practiced that much, and an offensive scheme designed around a QB who possesses 'wildcat' skills and who can also throw. Time will tell no doubt, but I hope to see more of this.
   904. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:31 AM (#4335081)
I think there's a big difference between installing a 'package' which likely isn't practiced that much, and an offensive scheme designed around a QB who possesses 'wildcat' skills and who can also throw. Time will tell no doubt, but I hope to see more of this.


I agree. It's a bit of a double edged sword though, the more it's run the quicker it can be broken down, if that's possible. The wildcat went south in a hurry because so many teams started using it and got used to it. Of course it was also more limited in what it can do. I too want to see more option, I'm just not ready to say it will be effective down the road. Things come and go. The new new thing doesn't always last.
   905. BeanoCook Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:43 AM (#4335092)
Let's see if it sticks. The Wildcat was extremely effective in its first year, something like over 7 yards a play on average, then after two more seasons of teams doing it and defenses figuring it out, it was completely ineffective.


Few if any college football coaches used the term "wildcat" if ever. I think this term, "wildcat", became NFL short hand for athletic QB. It was used so often, I'm sure most didn't know what they were even referring to when they used it. It's kind of a meaningless term when describing actual Xs and Os.

I hope "pistol" doesn't become the next phrase the NFL beats to death. I see too many people describing the Skins offense as a "pistol" offense and crediting entirely Chris Ault for it. This is not accurate. Art Briles at Stephenville HS in Texas is largely the architect of RG3's offense, even on the Skins. Esp the run pass concepts. Yes, Mike Shannahan has borrowed some of the shotgun I from Ault.

Overall, watching NFL fans, media, even coaches talk Xs and Os of these innovative offensives is kind of like watching a kid ride a bike on training wheels. I guess it is better than nothing and light years ahead of just 2 years ago when they dismissed offensive innovation if it came from college or even HS.
   906. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:48 AM (#4335097)
Few if any college football coaches used the term "wildcat" if ever. I think this term, "wildcat", became NFL short hand for athletic QB. It was used so often, I'm sure most didn't know what they were even referring to when they used it. It's kind of a meaningless term when describing actual Xs and Os.


I am talking specifically about the version the Dolphins ran. Multiple teams ran it the next year, and it decreased in effectiveness, and the next year it was dead. Which is why it's so funny that the Jets thought they could install it this year.

I hope "pistol" doesn't become the next phrase the NFL beats to death.


That will be next year's big new thing that isn't new.
   907. BeanoCook Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:41 AM (#4335119)
Another point to make on RGIII. He is actually very good, if not great, at running the read option. Tebow was very good too. Too often a play or concept gets picked up in the NFL and then it is run poorly and NFL honks ring their hands, "see ____ doesn't work". That's lazy thinking. I'm glad there are at least a few players running these plays at the high level they deserve. The stuff does work.
   908. Tripon Posted: December 31, 2012 at 04:15 AM (#4335126)

I think there's a big difference between installing a 'package' which likely isn't practiced that much, and an offensive scheme designed around a QB who possesses 'wildcat' skills and who can also throw. Time will tell no doubt, but I hope to see more of this.


We're already going to see more of it. Next week's playoff game is going to have the Redskins vs. Seahawks. Two teams that have QBs that can run and throw the football.
   909. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 31, 2012 at 04:57 AM (#4335133)
The Niners go into the postseason with some problems. Crabtree and Kaepernick have some great chemistry but the Niners are going to miss Manningham. The Niners dressed AJ Jenkins today and he looked overwhelmed. Moss has looked better than his numbers and they are going to need more from both him and Vernon Davis. Their kicker is completely unreliable at this point. Aldon Smith has not recorded a sack in his last three games and he obviously misses Justin Smith.

I just don't think this team has a ton of momentum going into the playoffs. They got a little bit lucky to get the bye and they are going to need it.
   910. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 31, 2012 at 07:21 AM (#4335155)
Andy Reid is already prepared to go to San Diego.

Good luck with that Andy. Reid supposedly wants that job. The Chargers supposedly do not want him.


yeah, i am not going to be rooting for reid. i held no grudges against mcnabb when he went to the redskins, no grudges against kolb when he went to the cardinals, but reid is different. i do not think he gave this team his best effort over the last 5 years, and quite honestly, it would piss me off if he was able to walk into san diego and instantly rejuvenate his career. he deserves to live out the rest of his life in football purgatory for what he's done to the eagles since the super bowl, and if he never wins another game, there will be a very large part of me that's happy about that.


   911. Rafael Bellylard: A failure of the waist. Posted: December 31, 2012 at 08:30 AM (#4335171)
he deserves to live out the rest of his life in football purgatory for what he's done to the eagles since the super bowl, and if he never wins another game, there will be a very large part of me that's happy about that.


Let him go to SD and take that buffoon coaching the Jets as his defensive coordinator.
   912. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 31, 2012 at 09:15 AM (#4335193)
with it now being official that reid is gone, i'm gonna say that i think the eagles should clear house this offseason. i don't just mean to get rid of reid and a handful of the mediocre players, what i'm thinking is that they need to just cut anyone who they're not 100% convinced of the character/effort/ability of. to me, that means getting rid of 2/3 of the roster. desean: gone. maclin: gone. cole, jenkins, nnamdi, DRC: gone.

the list of guys i'd bring back:
QB: foles, RB: mccoy, brown, WR: avant, cooper, johnson, TE: celek, harbor, OL: peters, mathis, kelce, herremens, kelly
DL: graham, curry, hunt, cox, thornton, dixon, landry, LB: ryans, kendricks, DB: boykin, anderson
K: henery

that's it. 25 players. that's the roster next year. i don't care that maclin and jackson and DRC are just entering the primes of their careers, i don't care that cole and jenkins still have gas left in the tank. i don't want any question marks to carry over from this year, and if that means losing 5 guys who might go to the pro-bowl next year, that sucks, but i'll take it.

the absolute last thing i want around this team next year are returning veterans who you're counting on to have bounceback years. this team was toxic this year, and a large part of that was due to the underperformance of most of this team's veteran core. so, with the team getting a new coach and a new quarterback, i don't want that stench carrying over. that covers cole and jenkins and asomugha.
the next worst thing they could have around are guys who just are not good enough. that's nate allen and kurt coleman and daryl tapp and king dunlap and danny watkins. it wouldn't really cost you anything to keep these guys through training camp, but again, i really don't want their stench to be around again next year.
the last worst thing they could have around are guys who are inconsistent in their effort. that covers DRC and desean jackson. with this, again, since there's a new regime coming in, i just do not think it is a good idea to leave that element of the team in place.


and then, there's jeremy maclin, who is solid, but just not good enough. if he was a little bigger, or a little faster, or a little tougher, he'd be a keeper, but he just lacks that one standout attribute that sets him apart, so i think it'd be best to just cut bait with him, and hopefully you can pull a 3rd round pick from another team that already has an all-pro #1 receiving option for maclin to slot in behind. maybe detroit or chicago or arizona, or even carolina or san diego or kansas city or oakland or tennessee.


and finally, mike vick:

i have no complaints about him whatsoever. he wasn't good enough, but the whole team wasn't good enough. what i will say about him is that he would do everything he could possibly do if he felt it would help the team. and on this team, there were very few other players who you could say the same thing about.
   913. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 31, 2012 at 09:24 AM (#4335196)
cullen jenkins was considered a good teammate and a solid citizen in green bay. i am stunned he is considered part of the problem in the eagles clubhouse
   914. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 31, 2012 at 10:23 AM (#4335225)
QB: foles, RB: mccoy, brown, WR: avant, cooper, johnson, TE: celek, harbor, OL: peters, mathis, kelce, herremens, kelly
DL: graham, curry, hunt, cox, thornton, dixon, landry, LB: ryans, kendricks, DB: boykin, anderson
K: henery


and using this as a springboard, going into free agency, i'd go all-in trying to pull dwayne bowe. he's a big, physical target, and while he's had problems of his own, at least his problems are fresh to this team.

i don't think i'd target any other notable FAs. maybe a starting DB or two, but other than that, i think the team would benefit by taking a year to try to condense around a core group of players, rather than going hog wild in free agency and trying to plug every hole with an established veteran.


and then getting to the draft, i'd be hoping for something like this:
1, luke joeckel, OT, texas A&M
2, xavier rhodes, CB, florida state
3, bacarri rambo, S, georgia
4, travis kelce, TE, cincinnati
5, tyrann mathieu, DB, LSU
6, devin taylor, DE, south carolina
7, kenny tate, LB, maryland
7, mike mauti, LB, penn state


it's early in the process, so projecting rambo, kelce, mathieu, and taylor where they are is kind of wishcasting, but if the eagles are active on draft day, they should be able to work themselves into a position to make some of that happen, if they want to.

if things go like this, the opening day starters would hopefully look something like:
QB: nick foles
RB: lesean mccoy, WR: dwayne bowe, riley cooper, jason avant, TE: brent celek
OL: jason peters, evan mathis, jason kelce, todd herremens, luke joeckel

DL: brandon graham, fletcher cox, antonio dixon, vinny curry
LB: mychal kendricks, demeco ryans, kenny tate
DB: xavier rhodes, bacarri rambo, tyrann mathieu, veteran CB


on offense, that line should be great. peters, kelce, and herremens are coming off injury, so that's a concern, but if peters comes back, at even 80%, he's starting in the pro-bowl. and adding joeckel gives you a bit of a cushion, since he could fill in at either tackle slot.

and on defense, there's a lot of youth there, which is fine by me because the worst players this year were the veterans. and again, since my hope for this season would be to get a core group of players to gel around each other, inexperience isn't a major issue for me.


i'd figure that with a little luck, that's a 7-win team, at worst it's a 3-win team, and if some of the young players begin to stand out, they could very quickly find themselves back at the top of the NFC.
   915. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 31, 2012 at 10:29 AM (#4335227)
cullen jenkins was considered a good teammate and a solid citizen in green bay. i am stunned he is considered part of the problem in the eagles clubhouse
the entire locker room is the problem. if the situation were a little different, i'd have no problem bringing him back, but for where the eagles are right now, i don't think there's anyone who'd benefit from jenkins being an eagle again next year.

   916. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 31, 2012 at 10:30 AM (#4335228)
steagles

understood. i wonder if ted thompson will take a flyer on the guy. sure he's two years older but he will likely come at a discount and he can still bring the pass rush.
   917. Eddo Posted: December 31, 2012 at 11:17 AM (#4335246)
And if the "right guy" is now unavailable, then keeping Smith is more attractive.
There could be as many as 10 NFL HC vacancies. I would think this would make a team less likely to fire its head coach since, well, desirable candidates have more options than usual.

That's basically my point. If you fire Smith, you'd better be damn sure you know a guy who is both a very good candidate and willing to come.

Coaching hires, unlike player signings, aren't generally about the most money. Coaching is much more about networking, so it's a matter of Emery knowing of an attractive option who is already interested.

And if that person doesn't exist, keep Lovie.
   918. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 31, 2012 at 11:24 AM (#4335249)
Let him go to SD and take that buffoon coaching the Jets as his defensive coordinator.
just to say a few more words about reid, i think the national perception of this is that he's a good coach, who's doing a good job and is being fired unjustly because he's failed to win a superbowl.

but that's not what's going on here. the issue now isn't that he hasn't won enough games, it's that he's been ####### awful. at everything. his coaching hires? washburn and castillo blew up in his face, bobby april has coached the worst special teams units each of the last two years, and while i don't think howard mudd has done a bad job, the fact that his system forced the exit of 3 solid linemen (winston justice, mike mcglynn, and austin howard) really hurt the team in a year where they were starting guys 4 days after they were signed off the street.

and then the personnel? they've drafted like #### since he was given the keys to the franchise, and that has forced the team to look towards free agency to fill key holes on the roster. when you make 1 or 2 of those signings every year, that's okay, but when you have to fill half your defense with mercenaries (jenkins, DRC, asomugha, babin, ryans) because you don't trust the guys you've drafted, that's gonna give you trouble.

and then the playcalling. forget the run/pass ratio, what i want to point out is the complete lack of scheme. over the last few years, the eagles didn't run any hurry-up, they didn't use a lot of pre-snap movement, they didn't use bunch sets or stack releases. they basically just lined up and said "we're doing this; stop us if you can", but since they weren't a good team, more often than not, they did get stopped.


if you strip away the meaningless 4 game win streak at the end of last season, reid has gone 8-20 over the last two years. he has really done a terrible job, and to say anything else about him as he gets booted out the door betrays a lack of understanding of the situation surrounding this team.

   919. jmurph Posted: December 31, 2012 at 11:25 AM (#4335250)
No one has ever wasted more talent than the Chargers did over the last 7-8 years, right? I suppose the 90s Bills are technically the correct answer here, but at least they had all of those Super Bowl appearances. It's incredible that Norv lasted until today.
   920. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 31, 2012 at 11:43 AM (#4335256)
The Bears haven't announced they have fired Smith, but they have reportedly "sent out consent forms requesting permission to interview head-coaching candidates." EDIT: Now it's official.

Chiefs fire Crennell but Pioli keeps his job. Jets fire Tannenbaum but Ryan keeps his job. You're doing it wrong.
   921. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 31, 2012 at 11:53 AM (#4335264)
if you strip away the meaningless 4 game win streak at the end of last season, reid has gone 8-20


I don't give two flying shits about Andy Reid, but the "if you remove the wins, his record is worse" argument is always invalid.
   922. jmurph Posted: December 31, 2012 at 11:55 AM (#4335267)
Jets fire Tannenbaum but Ryan keeps his job. You're doing it wrong.


As a Patriots fan, I approve of this.
   923. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:19 PM (#4335284)
Boo to the Bears firing Lovie. Their issues seem to be more personnel related.
   924. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4335288)
Their issues seem to be more personnel related.


Mike Tice as offensive coordinator was as big of a problem.
   925. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:26 PM (#4335293)
Boo to the Bears firing Lovie. Their issues seem to be more personnel related.


Yeah, but they've had the same personnel related issues for pretty much all 9 years of Lovie's tenure. At some point, #### has to flow uphill.
   926. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4335295)
Well they have a GM in year one of his tenure so it seems they could have given this more opportunity to work. Plus, his decision to draft a third down pass rusher instead of a left tackle hasn't exactly been vindicated by events.

Anyway, the Bears won ten games this year. Who was predicting more than this preseason?
   927. jmurph Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:32 PM (#4335299)
Yeah, but they've had the same personnel related issues for pretty much all 9 years of Lovie's tenure. At some point, #### has to flow uphill.


I think teams are far too conservative in hiring/firing decisions. Lovie should have been fired years ago. Norv should have been fired years ago. Jason Garrett should obviously be fired. Why waste time?
   928. Mess with the Meat, you get the Wad! Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:33 PM (#4335301)
Goodbye Lovie you will be missed, a class coach but not always the best. I know I am one of the few who wanted him to stay because a coach like that is hard to find.
   929. zack Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:34 PM (#4335303)
   930. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4335307)
I think teams are far too conservative in hiring/firing decisions. Lovie should have been fired years ago. Norv should have been fired years ago. Jason Garrett should obviously be fired. Why waste time?

Eh, Jerry Angelo was atrocious and they kept him too long. I don't think many eould consider the Bears underacheiving based on their overall talent level. Lovie certainly had weaknesses but he also had great strengths and I think the combination was better than average in the aggregate.

EDIT: Angelo was the former GM and had an awful draft record. The Bears are an old team because their draft picks were a long line of flameouts.
   931. Mess with the Meat, you get the Wad! Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4335309)
I would blame the personnel on angelo he could not draft his way out of a paper bag. The oline is garbage because of him
   932. Tom Nawrocki Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:48 PM (#4335315)
As a Bears fan, the Lovie firing depresses me even more than I expected. Yes, the offense was never very good under him, but having outstanding defense and special teams every year isn't exactly automatic.

I expect the next coach will improve the offense by about 25 percent, but the team as a whole will decline. I don't expect them to see .500 again for a few years.
   933. SoSH U at work Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:56 PM (#4335320)
I think teams are far too conservative in hiring/firing decisions. Lovie should have been fired years ago. Norv should have been fired years ago. Jason Garrett should obviously be fired. Why waste time?


The problem with such a hiring/firing strategy is you're just as likely to end up with the next crap coach as getting the next genius, as SD discovered when it aggressively shitcanned Marty and replaced him with ol' Norv. As Tom says, my guess is the next Bears coach, in total, won't be as good as Lovie.
   934. jmurph Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:56 PM (#4335321)
I expect the next coach will improve the offense by about 25 percent, but the team as a whole will decline. I don't expect them to see .500 again for a few years.


I don't see things this way. It's very difficult, and takes a lot of incompetence, to remain under .500 for several years in a row in the modern NFL. If Lovie and his system can't get enough out of Cutler and the offense, you move on. Good quarterbacks with potential for being very good are extremely hard to find. There are very few of them in the league, and one is needed to win. I don't see the evidence that average head coaches/good defensive coaches are particularly hard to find.
   935. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 31, 2012 at 12:56 PM (#4335322)
I'm mildly rooting for the Cowboys because I think Romo is a ridiculously underrated QB and I'd like to see him win a big game when everyone says he can't. On the other hand, I really dislike them.


I don't know... Romo seems like the anti-Eli.
   936. jmurph Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:00 PM (#4335325)
The problem with such a hiring/firing strategy is your just as likely to end up with the next crap coach as getting the next genius, as SD discovered when it agressively shitcanned Marty and replaced him with ol' Norv. As Tom says, my guess is the next Bears coach, in total, won't be as good as Lovie.


Norv has been a total failure in San Diego. He has also been roughly as successful as Lovie (the Bears obviously did get to a Super Bowl, which should push him ahead of Norv overall). I guess my (admittedly simplistic) argument is that there are very few elite coaches, a giant middle class of mediocre-to-above average, and then a handful of coaches with no obvious aptitude for the position (Tice? Crennel?). Roll the dice, it's a sport. If you're not winning, do something else.
   937. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4335327)
I'll say this in defense of Lovie: he never had a single game that he coached as poorly as Mike McCarthy's today.


I think the defense of Lovie is that he was fired off of a 10-6 season in which he had a +98 point differential and barely missed the playoffs. He didn't have a _bad_ year last year (8-8), and he won the division at 11-5, +48 in 2010.

Of course, Cutler is the whole team.

I'm not the biggest fan of Lovie, but he kind of got a raw deal here.

----------------

Lots of firings today. The feeling in NY was that Ryan/Tanenbaum had to be kept together, not split up, and that they would be given one more year. I don't think Mangini was a good coach, but he seems to have been a lot better at drafting than the Rex/T combination has been.

I continue to maintain that Rex is a defensive coordinator, nothing more. Do people feel that Norv is an OC, nothing more?

----------------

And what do people make of the Colts? 11-5 but outscored on the year. Most of their wins have been close, and they've been blown out a few times.
   938. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4335334)
I think the defense of Lovie is that he was fired off of a 10-6 season in which he had a +98 point differential and barely missed the playoffs. He didn't have a _bad_ year last year (8-8), and he won the division at 11-5, +48 in 2010.

And last year would have been a 10+ win season but Culter got injured and the Bears had the most laughable group of backup QBs I've ever seen. Those guys wouldn't even be on the Cardinals roster this year. The season before last they were in the NFC championship game. I understand as well as anybody how frustrating the weaknesses have been to watch but the results have been pretty good.
   939. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:18 PM (#4335336)
And what do people make of the Colts? 11-5 but outscored on the year. Most of their wins have been close, and they've been blown out a few times.


I think the Colts and Luck's rookie campaign explain just how easy it is to QB in the NFL if you have decent scheme and a few WRs. Also, they'll lose in Baltimore.
   940. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4335338)
he deserves to live out the rest of his life in football purgatory for what he's done to the eagles since the super bowl,


Burying his son wasn't punishment enough? Philly fans really are a tough crowd.
   941. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:26 PM (#4335345)
Predictions:

NFC

Seattle over Washington

Green Bay over Minnesota

Atlanta over Seattle

Green Bay over San Fran

Green Bay over Atlanta

AFC

Houston over Cincinnati

Baltimore over Indy

New England over Houston

Denver over Baltimore

New England over Denver (Head says Denver but heart says otherwise)

Super Bowl

Green Bay over New England
   942. McCoy Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:26 PM (#4335346)
Anyway, the Bears won ten games this year. Who was predicting more than this preseason?

I believe I had them at 9 or 10 wins this season.
   943. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:27 PM (#4335347)
Does Phil Rivers bounce back post-Norv? It's been a stunning (I'll stick by that word) collapse to his career. 3rd in Football Outsiders QBR in 2009, 31st in 2012.
   944. McCoy Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:33 PM (#4335352)
I've always thought that Smith should have been fired years ago. Giving him the head coaching job was the Peter Principle in full effect. I thought when they gave him the head coach committee he'd be on a very short leash and I think getting to the NFC championship under that setup bought him another year. I think they gave him a pass for last year because Cutler got hurt and the GM put in absolutely lousy contingency plans. But this year was going to be do or die for him and the team clearly lacks the proper vision to do much of anything on the offensive side of the ball. The Bears' defense is getting older, got to look good against some bad teams when fresh while getting some lucky breaks, and then looked mortal in the second half. No real reason to stick with Smith for the rebuilding process. He doesn't really bring anything to the table as a head coach that a coordinator can't bring to his area of expertise. He doesn't have an eye for talent, isn't an innovator, isn't anything special as a developer, and is completely helpless when it comes to offense.
   945. Tom Nawrocki Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4335357)
I'm not the biggest fan of Lovie, but he kind of got a raw deal here.


I really don't care what kind of deal Lovie got; I'm not especially interested in being fair to the coach. I care about what happens to the team.

The Bears are coming off seasons of 10-8-11 wins. What management is saying is that a better coach would have had the team at about 12 wins a year. What management is saying is that Bill Belichick is the only coach in the NFL who deserves to keep his job.

The problem with the team has been screamingly obvious for years now - the offensive line is horrible. So the team needs to find a way to work on that while not destroying the things that have been successful. I don't see how firing Lovie Smith acocmplishes that.
   946. Kurt Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:41 PM (#4335364)
Does Phil Rivers bounce back post-Norv?

It seems at least as likely that Norv bounces back post-Philip Rivers, unless someone can explain how Norv radically changed from 2009 to 2012.
   947. jmurph Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:43 PM (#4335366)
The Bears are coming off seasons of 10-8-11 wins. What management is saying is that a better coach would have had the team at about 12 wins a year. What management is saying is that Bill Belichick is the only coach in the NFL who deserves to keep his job.


I don't think that's right. I'm guessing their thinking is something like: we've had several seasons of not being good enough. Time to go in a different direction.

If your guy isn't helping on offense, and isn't helping (correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm not a Bears fan) shape the roster, then you're talking about a coordinator who has the title of head coach.
   948. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:43 PM (#4335367)
I don't give two flying shits about Andy Reid, but the "if you remove the wins, his record is worse" argument is always invalid.
okay...over the last two years, the eagles have had a 7-17 record over the first 12 games of the season, which essentially meant they were eliminated from playoff contention by thanksgiving.

again, he's not being fired because he was "good, but not good enough". he's being fired because he's been terrible. that needs to be recognized.
Burying his son wasn't punishment enough? Philly fans really are a tough crowd.
if you want to have a conversation about andy reid as a father, my opinion there is actually quite a bit more harsh than my opinion of him as a coach.
   949. Crosseyed and Painless Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:46 PM (#4335372)
It seems at least as likely that Norv bounces back post-Philip Rivers, unless someone can explain how Norv radically changed from 2009 to 2012.


So you'd say Rivers is done? I'm not an expert. I was just curious if Phil is really toast. I'm not saying he wasn't.
   950. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4335375)
If your guy isn't helping on offense, and isn't helping (correct me if I'm wrong, as I'm not a Bears fan) shape the roster, then you're talking about a coordinator who has the title of head coach.

Well I think that is purely semantic. I don't care how much/little he delegates authority. I think the next coach is unlikely to win as many games unless the talent level improves.
   951. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: December 31, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4335385)
I believe I had them at 9 or 10 wins this season.


I guessed 9-7.

Overall I liked Lovie. He wasn't a great coach, but he was good enough, I thought. Yeah, he had his flaws, but I agree that the vast majority of the Bears' problems were personnel-related ones (though I do agree with the criticisms of Tice). Angelo neglected that OL for so long it became a horrible joke.

I would like to know, though, why the hell the Bears can't get the plays in on time. This is not a new problem; it's been going on for a few years, but this year it seemed especially awful, and we saw it in yesterday's game a few times. That's sort of basic, isn't it?
   952. Kurt Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:00 PM (#4335389)
So you'd say Rivers is done? I'm not an expert. I was just curious if Phil is really toast. I'm not saying he wasn't.

No, I don't know that he's done. Just skeptical that Norv has been dragging him down the last few years rather than the other way around, given that Norv was also there for most of the good years.
   953. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:06 PM (#4335393)
And what do people make of the Colts? 11-5 but outscored on the year. Most of their wins have been close, and they've been blown out a few times.


Paper tigers, but they are playing the equally unimpressive Ravens so they just might win.

I think teams are far too conservative in hiring/firing decisions. Lovie should have been fired years ago. Norv should have been fired years ago. Jason Garrett should obviously be fired. Why waste time?


Norv should never have been hired by San Diego. That was the problem.

I think the Colts and Luck's rookie campaign explain just how easy it is to QB in the NFL if you have decent scheme and a few WRs.


No it says that having Andrew Luck and a soft schedule means you can have an over-inflated record.
   954. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:26 PM (#4335407)
Whisenhunt just got fired.

If they can get a QB, they could be pretty good. There's talent on that defense. Tough division though.
   955. jmurph Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:29 PM (#4335411)
If they can get a QB, they could be pretty good.


You're right, but this is also true of about 20 other teams. Therein lies the issue.
   956. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:32 PM (#4335412)
tremendous regard for lovie smith. what he managed to do as a coach was reduce the need of a good/great quarterback by building great defense/special teams. and when the bears acquired cutler when cutler has been in the lineup and the defense has been healthy the team has been pretty special. but last year cutler (and forte) went down and that got ugly and then this year the defense tailed off in the second half while the offensive line undermined the offense.

it won't happen but if ted thompson made lovie the packers d-coordinator tomorrow i would be delighted.
   957. McCoy Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4335415)
The problem with the team has been screamingly obvious for years now - the offensive line is horrible. So the team needs to find a way to work on that while not destroying the things that have been successful. I don't see how firing Lovie Smith acocmplishes that

I don't see how keeping Smith accomplishes it either. He's been the head coach for a very long time and all of that time his offenses have been terrible and his offensive decisions/execution has been terrible. They've tried delegating those responsibilities to others and that has failed as well. I think it is time to put somebody else at the top who can instill the proper spirit in the coaching staff and team in general.
   958. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:39 PM (#4335416)
You're right, but this is also true of about 20 other teams. Therein lies the issue.


True, but unlike a lot of other teams, the Cardinals do have a pretty good defense and ST. They really can turn it around in a hurry with a decent QB.
   959. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:41 PM (#4335420)
We can't know today but Smith might have been unwilling to make a coaching change on offense and that's what led to him getting fired. That's what happened to Shanahan in Denver, but with the defense.
   960. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 31, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4335427)
I think Mike Tanier had a balanced response to the Reid firing.
   961. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:01 PM (#4335442)
that video of andy reid talking to the eagles staff this afternoon was amazing. he was smiling, he was joking, he was bouncing around (i'll spare you the rush limbaugh gif). he looked like 1000 lbs had just been taken off his shoulders.

   962. Tripon Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:05 PM (#4335448)

The problem with such a hiring/firing strategy is you're just as likely to end up with the next crap coach as getting the next genius, as SD discovered when it aggressively shitcanned Marty and replaced him with ol' Norv. As Tom says, my guess is the next Bears coach, in total, won't be as good as Lovie.


It was the wrong kind of aggressiveness, and actually wasn't really aggressive at all. 14-2 that year, 2nd round exit (meaning didn't win a playoff game, lost around mid Jan.) But Marty got fired at Feb. 12th according to his wiki, a good month after the playoff lost. During that whole month, both his offensive and defensive coordinators take HC jobs somewhere else, so you couldn't promote in house if you want to, and more importantly all of the good potential HC coaches that year were already signed up by somebody. They had to settle for Norv Turner, and it was really obvious that they had to, because they dicked around the situation for a month, and AJ Smith, the joker who just got fired today decided he hated Marty enough to fire him only when there was no good candidates to interview.
   963. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4335450)
I think the defense of Lovie is that he was fired off of a 10-6 season in which he had a +98 point differential and barely missed the playoffs. He didn't have a _bad_ year last year (8-8), and he won the division at 11-5, +48 in 2010.

The Bears have made the playoffs 1 time in the last 6 years. Lovie made the playoffs 3 times in 9 seasons. End of discussion, that's just unacceptable.

He should have been fired last year when they canned Angelo. The fact that ownership made Emery keep him set the team back a year. There's going to be a lot of change to the roster now. The defense is old.
   964. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:13 PM (#4335452)

The Bears have made the playoffs 1 time in the last 6 years. Lovie made the playoffs 3 times in 9 seasons. End of discussion, that's just unacceptable.


The Bears have only had a quarterback for four of those years.
   965. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:19 PM (#4335456)
If Houston beat Minnesota last week would he deserve to return for 2013?
   966. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:21 PM (#4335459)
as the jeffrey lurie press conference that just ended, i have two thoughts:

1, when talking about what he'll look for in the next coach, he basically just listed chip kelly's resume.

and 2, there is literally nothing he could have said about howie roseman that would have been more reassuring than what he actually said. and what he said was that prior to this offseason, he went back to his notes and that he saw that the scout who was most consistently right in his evaluations of players was howie roseman, and that as a result of that, he restructured the organization to run personnel decisions through roseman.

which is significant because this past draft might the best the eagles have had in the last 20 years.


all-in-all, lurie looks like a million bucks after this. he looks sharp, intelligent, compassionate, and really on the ball. i was not really expecting that.
   967. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:24 PM (#4335463)
2, there is literally nothing he could have said about howie roseman that would have been more reassuring than what he actually said


He said that Roseman's bad drafts were Andy's fault, but the one good draft was all Roseman. I'm not buying what he's selling.
   968. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:25 PM (#4335465)
But Marty got fired at Feb. 12th according to his wiki, a good month after the playoff lost. During that whole month, both his offensive and defensive coordinators take HC jobs somewhere else, so you couldn't promote in house if you want to,
iirc, marty was fired specifically because his coordinators were hired elsewhere. if his staff was intact, he was going to continue as head coach, but i think the chargers were pissed that cameron and phillips were hired elsewhere, so they fired marty as a result.
   969. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:31 PM (#4335471)
You do remember it correctly. AJ Smith FTW:

Mortensen reported that Spanos told Schottenheimer on Monday that it wasn't going to work between him and Smith. Mortensen also reported that Smith began calling Chargers players Monday night, telling them not to panic in the wake of the firing.

The San Diego Union-Tribune, citing unnamed sources, reported that Schottenheimer was fired after trying to interview his brother, Kurt, for the team's vacant defensive coordinator post. Spanos and Smith didn't approve of the move, but Schottenheimer reportedly insisted he had the right to hire his own staff.

The newspaper reported that tension had been building between Schottenheimer and the Chargers' front office after he allowed several of his coaches to interview elsewhere. The front office didn't approve of Schottenheimer's decision.


Not shocking, AJ Smith has been a problem for years.

What could have been:

Beyond Turner, the other known San Diego head coach candidates -- Gary Gibbs (New Orleans), Mike Zimmer (Atlanta), Mike Singletary (San Francisco), Ron Rivera (Chicago) and Rex Ryan (Baltimore) -- are all coaches whose expertise is on the defensive side. All but Singletary are current coordinators.
   970. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:32 PM (#4335474)
He said that Roseman's bad drafts were Andy's fault, but the one good draft was all Roseman. I'm not buying what he's selling.
you probably should, because short of roseman having incriminating pictures, there's no reason for lurie put him over as strongly as he did.

lurie didn't just say that roseman was in charge of this past draft, he said that he personally had gone over reports from previous years, and that he personally had so much confidence in roseman's scouting ability that he reorganized the front office so personnel decisions ran through roseman.

that's going above and beyond, making it known that whatever roseman does is on him, as well. he's putting his neck on the line in support of roseman, and i think his explanation for doing so is more reasonable than any other.
   971. Eddo Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4335475)
But this year was going to be do or die for him and the team clearly lacks the proper vision to do much of anything on the offensive side of the ball. The Bears' defense is getting older, got to look good against some bad teams when fresh while getting some lucky breaks, and then looked mortal in the second half. No real reason to stick with Smith for the rebuilding process.

McCoy is right on, here. The Bears reached a point where they weren't going to get any better under Lovie Smith, and their current level is just not good enough.

He doesn't really bring anything to the table as a head coach that a coordinator can't bring to his area of expertise. He doesn't have an eye for talent, isn't an innovator, isn't anything special as a developer, and is completely helpless when it comes to offense.

I do disagree with parts of this, though. Lovie's strength is that he's fantastic at identifying undervalued defensive players - low-round picks, guys who are out of position, guys who are in the wrong system - and turning them into productive players. The Bears under Lovie consistently took guys like Israel Idonije (undrafted out of Canada), Henry Melton (a RB in college), Nick Roach (a nobody), and Tim Jennings (a castaway by the Colts) and turned them into quite good players. A team that has a bunch of young, raw defensive talent (or needs some) would be smart to scoop up Lovie Smith.
   972. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:35 PM (#4335476)
It also means that Roseman better have a good draft or he should be on the hot seat. I would have fired Roseman along with Reid, he helped assemble this disaster of a team.
   973. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4335477)
Lovie Smith is great. I want the Eagles to hire him as head coach today.
   974. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4335479)
It also means that Roseman better have a good draft or he should be on the hot seat.
i don't disagree with that.
I would have fired Roseman along with Reid, he helped assemble this disaster of a team.
the seeds were sown years and years before. this team has had terrible draft after terrible draft, and that didn't start in 2011 (though 2011 was by far the worst of them by far).


   975. SoSH U at work Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:41 PM (#4335480)
During that whole month, both his offensive and defensive coordinators take HC jobs somewhere else, so you couldn't promote in house if you want to, and more importantly all of the good potential HC coaches that year were already signed up by somebody.


The other 7 coaches hired that offseason featured one inarguable success, Tomlin; one guy who's had some success, Whisenhunt; and five guys who didn't work - Cameron, Phillips, Edwards, Kiffin and Petrino. Like I said, whether it was smart aggressive or stupid aggressive, there is considerable risk that what's behind Door No. 2 isn't worth having.
   976. McCoy Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4335481)
We can't know today but Smith might have been unwilling to make a coaching change on offense and that's what led to him getting fired. That's what happened to Shanahan in Denver, but with the defense

Severely doubt it. Smith has almost no say in the coaching staff.
   977. Tripon Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4335482)
iirc, marty was fired specifically because his coordinators were hired elsewhere. if his staff was intact, he was going to continue as head coach, but i think the chargers were pissed that cameron and phillips were hired elsewhere, so they fired marty as a result.


That makes no sense. Teams have the right to deny permission for any of their staff to interview for other jobs if they're still under contract. And if the Chargers wanted to keep either Phillips or Cameron, they would have offer a renewal or fire Marty then and hired one of these two earlier. Its not on Marty to keep the staff together, it was on the Chargers.
   978. McCoy Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4335485)
I do disagree with parts of this, though. Lovie's strength is that he's fantastic at identifying undervalued defensive players - low-round picks, guys who are out of position, guys who are in the wrong system - and turning them into productive players. The Bears under Lovie consistently took guys like Israel Idonije (undrafted out of Canada), Henry Melton (a RB in college), Nick Roach (a nobody), and Tim Jennings (a castaway by the Colts) and turned them into quite good players. A team that has a bunch of young, raw defensive talent (or needs some) would be smart to scoop up Lovie Smith.

The thing is I don't think that is anything special or unique when it comes coaches and their systems. It seems to me every system in football has positional spots filled by unheralded players with unheralded backgrounds. Which is why I said I don't think Smith brings anything to the table that a coordinator wouldn't also bring to the table. His team seems to like him but that generally happens for any good coordinator as well. His strengths aren't unique and his flaws are too many to stay the HC of the Beras.
   979. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4335486)
the seeds were sown years and years before. this team has had terrible draft after terrible draft, and that didn't start in 2011 (though 2011 was by far the worst of them by far).


You know who was involved in that? Howie Roseman.
   980. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:50 PM (#4335489)
Severely doubt it. Smith has almost no say in the coaching staff.


Yet another reason to fire him.

That makes no sense.


This is AJ Smith we are talking about. Case in point: he hired Norv Turner.
   981. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4335490)
You know who was involved in that? Howie Roseman.

the way i'm looking at this is, if you take what's being said at face value, roseman could be one of the best GMs in the NFL.

so, if roseman is that good, and you knew for a fact that he is that good, would you still fire him just on general principle for having been in the room for the last few years?


   982. Eddo Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4335493)
The thing is I don't think that is anything special or unique when it comes coaches and their systems. It seems to me every system in football has positional spots filled by unheralded players with unheralded backgrounds. Which is why I said I don't think Smith brings anything to the table that a coordinator wouldn't also bring to the table. His team seems to like him but that generally happens for any good coordinator as well. His strengths aren't unique and his flaws are too many to stay the HC of the Beras.

Every system does have spots filled by unheralded players, but I would say the Bears have more and better ones (Jennings and Melton both were Pro Bowlers this year). And the Bears did build top-ten defenses consistently under Smith and his signing of castoffs. Results do mean something.
   983. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:57 PM (#4335496)
Lovie Smith is an interesting case. There are better coaches in the NFL but the NFL head coaching population has been strongly affected by survivor bias -- you have a few that stick for many years, and many, many coaches who don't last (or who fail multiple times). So I'd say that only about 25-30% of newly hired coaches are as good or better than Smith. So if you fire him, you really have to be confident on your ability to hire a new coach -- which all head offices have, and yet only 25-30% actually manage to do.
   984. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 31, 2012 at 03:58 PM (#4335497)
the way i'm looking at this is, if you take what's being said at face value, roseman could be one of the best GMs in the NFL.

so, if roseman is that good, and you knew for a fact that he is that good, would you still fire him just on general principle for having been in the room for the last few years?


I am not taking what Lurie said on face value. We don't know for a fact he is any good. Howie Roseman was part of a group of people that was bad at drafting. Lurie thinks he was an exception to the rule. We shall see, but I am skeptical. As I have said before, one of the biggest problems the Eagles have had in recent years is that front office vacancies are always being filled from within. There are no outside voices, no fresh takes on anything. Roseman is the face of that.
   985. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: December 31, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4335505)
The Bears have only had a quarterback for four of those years.

A lot of that was Lovie's choice ("Rex is our quarterback"). Regardless, they made the playoffs one time with Cutler in 4 years. Still fireable.

If Houston beat Minnesota last week would he deserve to return for 2013?

Irrelevant. As I said, he deserved to go last season. He had a "win now" roster with a rapidly approaching expiration date and didn't make the playoffs again. 2 straight collapses (yes, injuries contributed but it's the NFL and that happens).

I do disagree with parts of this, though. Lovie's strength is that he's fantastic at identifying undervalued defensive players - low-round picks, guys who are out of position, guys who are in the wrong system - and turning them into productive players.

To be fair, part of that was need, since so many of the high draft picks on defense have been busts.

Severely doubt it. Smith has almost no say in the coaching staff.

False. He has almost exclusive say. All of the current (or most recent ex) coaching staff (including the job his son has) are his picks. IIRC, Turner was somewhat forced on him after the Shea pick (which was Lovie's) was so disastrous, but that was after his first season. Lovie got to replace Turner when he wanted him gone - Lovie wanted Martz from the start but Angelo didn't buy in right away, and they ended up hiring Martz.
   986. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: December 31, 2012 at 04:09 PM (#4335506)
I am not taking what Lurie said on face value. We don't know for a fact he is any good. Howie Roseman was part of a group of people that was bad at drafting. Lurie thinks he was an exception to the rule. We shall see, but I am skeptical. As I have said before, one of the biggest problems the Eagles have had in recent years is that front office vacancies are always being filled from within. There are no outside voices, no fresh takes on anything. Roseman is the face of that.
but that's the thing. lurie isn't just saying that he thinks roseman is an exception, he's explaining why he thinks roseman is an exception.


and though i know you have a much different perception of what's gone on for the past few years than i do, what lurie is saying now about roseman is very consistent with my perception of what's gone on for the past few years. ymmv, but until roseman ##### up, i'm firmly behind him.


   987. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: December 31, 2012 at 04:37 PM (#4335523)
We'll have to agree to disagree. We can revisit this after the draft, where we can make some evaluation of the draft and free agency, and then again this time next year. I would love to be wrong about him, I really would. I just have no confidence in him.
   988. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 31, 2012 at 06:27 PM (#4335593)

A lot of that was Lovie's choice ("Rex is our quarterback"). Regardless, they made the playoffs one time with Cutler in 4 years. Still fireable.


Cutler was only healthy for 3 1/2 of those four years. One of those 3 1/2 years was this year, when then went 10-6, usually enough to get to the playoffs.
   989. McCoy Posted: January 01, 2013 at 01:23 PM (#4335889)
If you have to come up with excuses on why a coach hadn't made it to the playoffs over the vast majority of tenure I'd say it is about time to get rid of him.
   990. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: January 01, 2013 at 01:58 PM (#4335917)
In a 16 game season, the difference in won/loss records is smaller than it appears. The Colts won 11 games, and were outscored. The Patriots won 12 games, and lost those four games by a total of 11 points (1, 1, 2, and 7). These two seasons are not close toequal, but the W/L records are close.

Judging Lovie Smith (or anybody else) by the times they won 10 vs 9 vs 8 games is not conclusive..I iwould rather judge it on point differential over a series of seasons.

Final point: if there is ever a time where having one superstar at the right position matters in sports, it is QB in the NFL, right now. The rules against hitting the QB, pass inteference, illegal contact, etc., make having the elite QB almost unfair. Consider the QBs in the playoffs this year:

Manning, Brady...easily the two best QBs in the AFC, on easily the two best teams in the AFC. GB is probably the NFC favorite. Griffin, Luck, and Wilson put those tams into the playoffs.

If one is to ding the teams that are firing coaches this week, it is fior this: In a league where the name of the game is getting an elite QB, they have not done so. Unless you have Adrian Peterson, you are not winning many Super Bowls without such a QB.
   991. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 01, 2013 at 02:17 PM (#4335932)
If you have to come up with excuses on why a coach hadn't made it to the playoffs over the vast majority of tenure I'd say it is about time to get rid of him.

This. I'd say the Ravens are a pretty good comp to the Bears - good to great D, good to better running game, average at best passing game with occasional bouts of success. Harbaugh is now 5 for 5 on playoff appearances.
   992. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 01, 2013 at 03:20 PM (#4336006)
moses

i think it's an unreasonable standard to get to the playoffs every season.

from espn quoting the bears gm: the club's inability to perennially advance to the postseason.

i know that's easy for a packer fan to write but to always get to the playoffs?

by the way, i get why there is a time to change but for the gm to set this as the expectation really sets up future coaches for failure

making the playoffs is hard.
   993. Der-K, the bloodied charmer Posted: January 01, 2013 at 06:26 PM (#4336245)
It seems to me that AJ Smith was also responsible for acquiring the talent that SD has wasted over the years. I'm not sure that you'd want him picking the next coach, but I'm not convinced that he needed to go.
As for Rivers, I think a lot of his issues involved injuries to a makeshift OL. He should bounce back somewhat...
   994. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 01, 2013 at 06:34 PM (#4336258)
der

i hear that about the offensive line but the packers are playing their third string right tackle, backup center and the left guard has started at that position maybe half the season
   995. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: January 01, 2013 at 06:42 PM (#4336266)
If you have to come up with excuses on why a coach hadn't made it to the playoffs over the vast majority of tenure I'd say it is about time to get rid of him.

This. I'd say the Ravens are a pretty good comp to the Bears - good to great D, good to better running game, average at best passing game with occasional bouts of success. Harbaugh is now 5 for 5 on playoff appearances.


Since hiring Lovie the Bears are 5th of the 16 NFC teams in wins. I think that's an accomplishment to be applauded.

I don't have the faintest idea why the Baltimore Ravens are the standard by which Lovie should be judged. If so, there are about 25 teams in the NFL who should be firing their coach this season.
   996. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 01, 2013 at 06:47 PM (#4336273)
pops

when quoted the number one thing nfl scounts talk about when it comes to the bears is how hard the team plays every game which is regarded as really hard to accomplish in the nfl

again for the pro firing crowd i am not saying that smith deserved to stay. just that with him gone you could be losing a serious leg up on the competition. that consistent high degree of effort on gameday
   997. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 01, 2013 at 07:08 PM (#4336295)
My post is being misconstrued. It was in response to the excuse that years without a QB should be discounted. The Ravens were my counter example.

Yes, making the playoffs every year is an impossible standard and isn't what I'm saying. Yet, there are teams that make it virtually every year so that when they miss it, it's a big deal - like the Steelers this year, or the Patriots the year Brady was hurt, or when the Packers miss. In the past 6 years - with the Bears making 1 playoff appearance, the following teams made the playoffs more often than the Bears: NE 5, BAL 5, IND 5, GB 4, ATL 4, PIT 4, CIN 3, MIN 3, NO 3, PHI 3, SD 3, HOU 2, SEA 2, DEN 2, SF 2, NYG 2, NYJ 2, ARI 2, TEN 2. That's 19 teams, 3 of which also fired their coaches yesterday (and another their GM). Another 7 teams have made one appearance in the last 6 years (WSH, DET, KC, DAL, MIA, CAR & JAC). Regular season wins are great, and you need them to get to the playoffs - but really, getting to the playoffs is all that matters here and the Bears are almost in the bottom 3rd of the league in the department. There's no reason the Bears shouldn't be one of the more successful teams, and yet, here we are. In the last 20 years, the Bears have 4 playoff wins, and it's been almost 30 years since their last title.

In Lovie's infamous introductory news conference, he said he had 3 goals for the Bears: beat the Packers, win the Division, and win the Superbowl. The Bears are 1-8 in their last 9 against GB, won the division 3 times out of 9 (once in the last 6 years), and didn't win the SB. By Lovie's own criteria, he failed.

As for Emery's quote, well, what organization isn't going to say their goal is to make the playoffs every year? I see it as nothing more than that and the failures to get there at all compared to the average team.

when quoted the number one thing nfl scounts talk about when it comes to the bears is how hard the team plays every game which is regarded as really hard to accomplish in the nfl

I'm not saying he's a bad coach. I'm sure he'll get another job quickly, and that team will likely improve. You have talked about the need to change messages from leadership before, and 9 years is a long time in the NFL. Lovie's a players coach too, so perhaps there's an immediate benefit just from that perspective. Only coach now with a longer tenure is Belichick (and Reid was too, before his firing).
   998. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 01, 2013 at 07:16 PM (#4336302)
moses

the hazard for a new coach is that you have a group of veteran stars who are intensely loyal to lovie smith

could be tough
   999. Fear is Moses Taylor's Bacon Bits Posted: January 01, 2013 at 07:18 PM (#4336306)
True. But there's a good chance a lot of them are gone anyway. It's an old team, especially on defense.
   1000. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 01, 2013 at 07:20 PM (#4336310)
moses

is the new coach going to be allowed to rebuild since the gm yammered about the playoffs?

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