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Tuesday, October 02, 2012

OTP: October 2012-THE RACE: As Candidates Prep, Attention in DC split between politics and baseball

While President Barack Obama and Mitt Romney bone up in Nevada and Colorado for Wednesday’s opening debate, back in the nation’s capital attention is split between the hard-fought presidential race and baseball playoffs.

The Nationals won the first division baseball championship for a Washington team since 1933 by clinching the National League East race Monday night.

Washington, D.C., has the only ballpark where so many Cabinet members, politicians and other luminaries routinely gather and where fans now are openly rooting for a particular president — one who served more than a century ago, Theodore Roosevelt.

“Let Teddy Win” banners and buttons are everywhere. Fans like 2008 GOP presidential nominee Sen. John McCain of Arizona say it’s time for Roosevelt’s 500-plus losing streak to end.

[...]

“Teddy, you are the victim of a vast left-wing conspiracy by the commie pinko libs in this town,” McCain said in a video played in the stadium Monday night. “But you can overcome that.”

The October 2012 “OT: Politics” thread starts ... now.

Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 02, 2012 at 02:14 PM | 6119 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: nationals, politics

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   2701. formerly dp Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:11 PM (#4274229)
I think terrorism is best handled by a combination of diplomacy and "crime fighting".


Fire up the Bat-signal FTW.
   2702. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4274230)
Sam, I kind of figured you'd stop talking about slavery, after Dan showed that your position on that score is not exactly one to be bragging about.
   2703. Ron J2 Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:13 PM (#4274231)
I suspect they probably 'shoot less'


The context being military versus civilian control of remote weapons. FWIW the talk I've heard is that this is exactly why it's a CIA drone war with civilians in control of the drones.
   2704. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:15 PM (#4274233)
Why would you exclude black voters???

I'm not sure why that is the one lone thing to focus on. But anyway, black voters in California were a rather small minority of voters but they were solidly against same sex marriage. Meanwhile the rest of California was evenly split on the issue to slightly leaning towards allowing same sex marriage. I didn't exclude them I pointed out why California as a whole passed Prop 8 and I also pointed out that if marriage was allowed to be a local issue plenty of places would allow same sex marriage. So really you can't really bring up me pointing out that blacks voted solidly for Prop 8 while also saying that same sex marriage has been voted down virtually everywhere it has been allowed to be voted on. As Sam said later on if you had put the slavery issue up for a vote just in Alabama and Virginia in 1850 the votes would lean heavily towards pro-slavery and one could also that virtually everywhere that people have been allowed to vote, they've upheld the traditional legality of slavery.
   2705. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:20 PM (#4274239)
There is no Catholic doctrine that prohibits the death penalty.


This is a serious question: do the Ten Commandments not count as Catholic doctrine?
   2706. Morty Causa Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:20 PM (#4274240)
Good summary, Morty, but just for the hell of it, let's try to take these points from the opposite POV.

OK.

Being the anti-science party is not trivial.

Being the party that wages war against religion isn't trivial.

What party does that? And in what way does it do it?

Believing that government is the problem, not the solution, is not trivial (in most places, at most times it is even ahistorical).

Look at Europe, where you have to wait for months or years to see a doctor.

Too facetious really fro a response, but you have to wait here, too—some millions have also been waiting to be covered for ages; how’s that work in Europe?

The legislative body of this country passing a resolution instructing the judiciary to decide a case a certain way is not trivial.

Unelected judges need to be guided by the will of the people.

That’s not in the constitution, and, besides, you can guide without mandating an outcome. That is a big constitutional encroachment. There are words for that sort of guidance.

Attempting to overthrow an election by the bogus use of the impeachment process is not trivial.

Perjury by a president is an legitimately impeachable offense, not trivial in the least.

We differ, both as to what perjury is and how serious a particular instance might be.

Birtherism is no joke.

Strawman. Only a minority of Republicans are Birthers. But then nobody ever needs to ask Romney where he was born.

It’s a big minority that fully infected the power structure of the party and its leaders.

The idea government that will not give you what you want is illegitimate and deserves to be frustrated corrodes the process and has been for thirty years at least.

Tell that to our Founding Fathers when they overthrew the British.

Well, if we’re at war—we’re at war. All bets are off, then. Are we? But, if we’re not, there has to be rules. And if we’re at war, expect no more of your adversary than what you would give him.

The idea that the rich can never be too rich, and thus too powerful, is demented. Much of the problems we have is because some people have too much money. That leaves only other people with too much money to combat them.

That's straight out of The Communist Manifesto. Why am I not surprised?

No, it isn’t. (But so what if it were.) It’s straight out of Alexander Hamilton, Thomas Jefferson, Andrew Jackson, A. Lincoln, T. Roosevelt, FDR, HST, and Dwight Eisenhower.

   2707. formerly dp Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:21 PM (#4274242)
It also means a general opposition to judging anyone based on the morality of their actions. Everyone who makes monumentally stupid decisions that ruin their life is a "victim" who deserves oodles of gov't aid.


So in other words, if they're not slut-shaming, and dividing rape into "forcible" and "she was asking for it", they're failing to adequately assign moral responsibility? Not shaming homosexuals for liking the wrong holes, also a failure to hold people to moral account for their actions.

Man, who the #### let this whole secular democracy thing happen in the first place?
   2708. Bitter Mouse Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:24 PM (#4274247)
I know what you mean, and up until the last two decades I felt the same way, but the behaviour of western governments, especially the US, in this time period has become so blatantly counter to the best interests of the vast majority of their populations that its become clear we're being taken for chumps. Both parties in the US are unequivocally controlled by corporate lobbies, especially the banking sector. We can't be satisfied with the marginal improvements that may occur when voting one party over the other.


OK, but how is what you are doing going to change anything for the better? Step 1 is remove yourself from the process. Step 3 is Better Government. What is Step 2?
   2709. formerly dp Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:24 PM (#4274248)
Ridicule on the internet does not, without much more, constitute persecution. Nor does the refusal of a state to implement a theocracy based on your religious beliefs.


Shhhhh...you're going to #### with Snapper persecution/martyr complex...it's one of the first things you learn as a Catholic. No matter how much you're trying to oppress other people, just claim that it's actually you who is being oppressed, and hope they're confused by the tortured logic...
   2710. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:29 PM (#4274252)
I further suspect that the Republican Party has no interest in actually outlawing abortion.


In New York the Republican Party campaigned for years and years on the restoration of the death penalty- of course the "party" had no interest in actually re-enacting the death penalty... it was too good an issue for them... Then the day came when they finally had the Governor's Mansion and the votes in the Legislature, what to do what to do... they carefully crafted an abomination Rube Goldbergian morass of a statute, that was designed to never actually lead to anyone's execution, but rather to create flashpoints and delays and more delays, and ambiguities, so they could then say, "see we passed the death penalty but look at what those darn liberal judges are doing to it!"

OTOH, I think many (though not all) State GOP parties are in fact sincere in wanting to ban abortions
   2711. zonk Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:29 PM (#4274253)
Man, who the #### let this whole secular democracy thing happen in the first place?


That's what Ann Veal's mom would like to know...
   2712. BDC Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4274254)
Look at Europe, where you have to wait for months or years to see a doctor

Easier than pointing out that people have to wait (or never get in) in the US is simply to deny the premise. For the love of Mike, has anyone who utters a sentence like the one I've snipped there ever been to Europe, let alone been to a doctor there? I'm sure there are Belarusian slums where it's hard to get good orthodontia, but the average German or Dane (to name two countries I visit every year) goes to the doctor like you'd expect anybody would go to the doctor in an affluent first-world society, and gets very good emergency or urgent or extraordinary care as needed. The source for this "in Europe you wait months to see a doctor" meme appears to be the right wing's collective fervid imagination.
   2713. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4274256)
This is a serious question: do the Ten Commandments not count as Catholic doctrine?

They are a basis of doctrine, and the foundation of the moral law.

But, "Thou shalt not kill" has always meant "Thou shalt not murder". Self-defense and killing in wartime have always been permitted back to first books of the Old Testament.
   2714. Bitter Mouse Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:32 PM (#4274257)
Everyone who makes monumentally stupid decisions that ruin their life is a "victim" who deserves oodles of gov't aid.


Here is what this liberal thinks:

Everyone deserves gov't aid in the form of the availability of a saftey net and regulations that protect the individual regardless of the morality of their actions. Note: Legality <> Morality.


   2715. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:33 PM (#4274258)
Self-defense and killing in wartime have always been permitted back to first books of the Old Testament.


But the death penalty is neither of those things.
   2716. Answer Guy Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4274262)
In New York the Republican Party campaigned for years and years on the restoration of the death penalty- of course the "party" had no interest in actually re-enacting the death penalty... it was too good an issue for them...


Different dynamics. 1994-95 was about the high water mark for support of capital punishment nationally. I think they expected to reap the rewards for restoring the death penalty, such as they were.
   2717. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:41 PM (#4274266)
Here's the core quote.


I stand corrected, and may I add that Ratzinger is even more repulsive than I had thought.
   2718. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:46 PM (#4274269)
as a long-time republican active in the party though my bona fides do get questioned for my lack of enthusiasm for certain topics i can state very clearly that regarding abortion the goal is to make it incredibly difficult to gain access to such services in as much of the country as possible

so outlaw? no

create significant barriers? yes
   2719. formerly dp Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4274270)
I stand corrected, and may I add that Ratzinger is even more repulsive than I had thought.


A misogynistic, homophobic dictator who helped keep little-boy raping priests raping little boys can get more repulsive?

I learned something new today.
   2720. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4274271)
Sam, I kind of figured you'd stop talking about slavery, after Dan showed that your position on that score is not exactly one to be bragging about.


Your mistake is assuming that Dan's unhinged rant was worth paying attention to.
   2721. Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:49 PM (#4274273)
Romney now up six in Gallup's LV poll — 51-45 — and also leads 48-46 in their RV poll.

Doubt last night reverses Romney's momentum, especially with Romney winning on the economy.
   2722. JL Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:49 PM (#4274274)
I didn't exclude them I pointed out why California as a whole passed Prop 8 and I also pointed out that if marriage was allowed to be a local issue plenty of places would allow same sex marriage. So really you can't really bring up me pointing out that blacks voted solidly for Prop 8 while also saying that same sex marriage has been voted down virtually everywhere it has been allowed to be voted on.

This also undercuts the position that Democrats are unanimous in there acceptance of all lifestyles. The last time I looked at it, Latinos were also against gay marriage despite tending to side more with Democrats
   2723. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4274275)
I assume everyone has seen that Gallup has Romney leading 51-45. That's a tracking poll from 10/10-16, so it will take a few days to see if the 2nd debate has any real effect.
   2724. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:52 PM (#4274276)
will my gop brethren now begin to believe in polls?
   2725. GregD Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:53 PM (#4274278)
GregD, I appreciate your thoughtful response. I know what you mean, and up until the last two decades I felt the same way, but the behaviour of western governments, especially the US, in this time period has become so blatantly counter to the best interests of the vast majority of their populations that its become clear we're being taken for chumps. Both parties in the US are unequivocally controlled by corporate lobbies, especially the banking sector. We can't be satisfied with the marginal improvements that may occur when voting one party over the other.

Today I just found out that Stephen Harper is about to sign into law a sweeping trade deal with China that will authorize the $15 billion acquisition Nexen, a large stakeholder in our oil sands, by CNOOC, a Chinese oil giant (i.e. the Chinese government). The deal also stipulates that the Chinese can sue any level of government for actions it deems to be against its economic interests....through a secret tribunal. This is called investor-state arbitration. They can also employ only Chinese labour if they so choose, and use only Chinese-produced materials and equipment. Also under the deal, no Canadian gov't can sue China for breaking any Canadian laws.

Harper sells out his country

This is outright treason, yet its to be signed into law on November 1st with no debate in our House of Commons. Obviously the official opposition doesn't seem to give a damn. Are you saying we should just wait until the next election?

We have become so utterly complacent that Prime Ministers, Presidents, Cabinet Ministers/Secretaries, Senators and MPs/Congressmen feel free to do whatever the #### they want to advance their personal goals, whether they be economic or solely egomaniacal. They feel no shame whatsoever when they lie to our face, and they will not stop until we demand accountability. Voting every four years isn't a very effective method for that.
Rants, that's a thoughtful response back. I know nothing about that trade deal except that article. Yikes! I do think that it's interesting that protectionism--once the heart of the 19th century Republican platform--now has no voice in domestic politics, at least in the US. That's one of the alignments that conform to your view; free trade is the consensus of the parties to the degree that a viewpoint with significant, if minority, support doesn't get expressed except in symbolic terms.

From my limited viewpoint, choosing not to vote in full awareness that non-participation may help your least-favorite party win and do some marginal but lousy things that affect people's lives is different than choosing not to vote in hopes of keeping clean hands. To me responsibility is the key factor, and people who approach things with an eye to their own culpability are doing about as much as humans are capable of. I reach different conclusions but I don't think my choices absolve me of responsibility or culpability. The opposite, in fact.
   2726. Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4274280)
This also undercuts the position that Democrats are unanimous in there acceptance of all lifestyles. The last time I looked at it, Latinos were also against gay marriage despite tending to side more with Democrats

But you never hear Dems excoriating blacks or Latinos for their position on gay marriage. To hear Dems (and the media) tell it, only a small number of religious right-wingers are keeping gay marriage from winning in each of the 50 states.

In 2008, gay marriage lost in California by over 4 points on the same day Obama beat McCain by 24 points. But somehow it was only the bigoted right-wingers' fault.
   2727. spycake Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:55 PM (#4274283)
Everyone who makes monumentally stupid decisions that ruin their life is a "victim" who deserves oodles of gov't aid.


Snapper, was it you who posted that "study" a while back that claimed every person on welfare received something like $40k annually in "benefits"? I remember is was massively refuted but I can't recall if you had a response, seems like you're still pushing that line though (although wisely not bringing up the actual numbers).
   2728. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:56 PM (#4274285)
Doubt last night reverses Romney's momentum, especially with Romney winning on the economy.


The election has pretty much become about the economy. Libya and the 47% have become sideshows.

And on the economy, Obama is extremely vulnerable given his record. Blaming it on Bush is valid to a degree, but it only goes so far.
   2729. Ron J2 Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:56 PM (#4274287)
Look at Europe, where you have to wait for months or years to see a doctor


Varies from place to place to be sure, but that's certainly not what happens in Germany or Switzerland (I remember the PBS special on health care around the world covered this). France IIRC as well. England as I understand it, the GP functions as gate-keeper to specialists.

Canada? Depends. There's a long wait for elective surgery. It can be a long wait to find a GP (but we're generally talking weeks not months -- at least in the larger cities)), but to date the walk in clinics have met my needs (I was lucky in that the clinic I went to had a foot specialist on staff when I needed one)
   2730. zonk Posted: October 17, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4274292)
I assume everyone has seen that Gallup has Romney leading 51-45. That's a tracking poll from 10/10-16, so it will take a few days to see if the 2nd debate has any real effect.


Of course - Obama also had an anomalous day drop off... Obviously, I'd rather it was flipped -- but the cross tabs have Obama +4 in the NE, +4 in the midwest, and +6 in the west -- but Romney romping a +22 in the south.
   2731. Jay Z Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:01 PM (#4274296)
GregD, I appreciate your thoughtful response. I know what you mean, and up until the last two decades I felt the same way, but the behaviour of western governments, especially the US, in this time period has become so blatantly counter to the best interests of the vast majority of their populations that its become clear we're being taken for chumps. Both parties in the US are unequivocally controlled by corporate lobbies, especially the banking sector. We can't be satisfied with the marginal improvements that may occur when voting one party over the other.


It's the price we pay for globalization and less regional/national economies. The pols go where the money is. Look at all of the state races now, they are primarily funded from out of state sources. Do you think the elected one is going to represent the interests of the state, or of those paying his bills? I don't like it either, I agree with you. But if you want more local control, you probably need more local economies, more nationalism, more splitting off. I think we can see where globalization is heading.
   2732. spycake Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:02 PM (#4274298)
But you never hear Dems excoriating blacks or Latinos for their position on gay marriage. To hear Dems (and the media) tell it, only a small number of religious right-wingers are keeping gay marriage from winning in each of the 50 states.

In 2008, gay marriage lost in California by over 4 points on the same day Obama beat McCain by 24 points. But somehow it was only the bigoted right-wingers' fault.


Or maybe Democrats recognize that views on this issue are clearly evolving in their favor and they just don't think it should be put to a referendum while the opposing viewpoint clings to a slim majority/plurality. The results of the referendum were not terribly surprising and the voters themselves generally not to blame; it is the forces putting these measures on ballots now that are generally to blame, from the Democrat's perspective.
   2733. formerly dp Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:02 PM (#4274299)
But you never hear Dems excoriating blacks or Latinos for their position on gay marriage. To hear Dems (and the media) tell it, only a small number of religious right-wingers are keeping gay marriage from winning in each of the 50 states.


I'm sure that's what Fox News tells you liberals and "the media" think. Among actual liberals, and more importantly, with the intergenerational conflicts between African-Americans, this is a huge issue. But I think, at this point, religions peddle homophobia at their own peril-- in the US, the sort of bigotry being sold to older folks is pushing more secular-minded youth away from organized religion. To them, it makes as much sense to deny marriage based on gender as it does to deny marriage based on race.
   2734. Bitter Mouse Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:03 PM (#4274300)
But you never hear Dems excoriating blacks or Latinos for their position on gay marriage. To hear Dems (and the media) tell it, only a small number of religious right-wingers are keeping gay marriage from winning in each of the 50 states.

In 2008, gay marriage lost in California by over 4 points on the same day Obama beat McCain by 24 points. But somehow it was only the bigoted right-wingers' fault.


You have heard in this very thread the statement if you don't accept gay marriage you are a bigot (which I still don't subscribe to btw), so yes you do here people excoriated for that belief. And I have heard blacks and hispanics called out on it. Please cite someone saying it is " only a small number of religious right-wingers" because that is clearly factually untrue. For a long time it was a majority against gay marriage and even now it is close to even (still shifting in favor about 1% per year, like a glacier or the Mills of God it is).
   2735. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:03 PM (#4274301)
And on the economy, Obama is extremely vulnerable given his record.

And the fact that Obama is the favorite to win the election or at the very least is tied with Romney shows just how poorly Romney has done at convincing Americans he is a better answer.
   2736. Bitter Mouse Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:07 PM (#4274308)
Look at all of the state races now, they are primarily funded from out of state sources.


Is this true? If there are races in all the states and funding comes from within the US (thus from all the states), can (or does) the primary funding for all state races (or even a majority) come from outside the state those elections take place in? Put another way how can every state send more money to elections outside its borders than it does to election inside its borders?

A plurality of high profile state races I will give you, but I am deeply suspicious it is more than that.

And I am not trying to pick on you, but I have heard this sentimate before and it just strikes me as wrong, but I suppose it could be true.

EDIT: It could also be true (I guess) that California and New York (to pull two random states out) send so much money to state level races in the other 48 that all of the state elections in those 48 states are largely funded outside their state borders.
   2737. Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:08 PM (#4274309)
I'm sure that's what Fox News tells you liberals and "the media" think. Among actual liberals, and more importantly, with the intergenerational conflicts between African-Americans, this is a huge issue.

A huge issue that apparently gets no media attention. I've seen a thousand stories in which Dems bash the religious right for opposing gay marriage. I can't recall a single story about Dems looking within their party to bash blacks and Latinos. This is just basic politics, I'm sure, but it's incredibly dishonest. The average voter probably has no idea just how opposed blacks and Latinos have been when it comes to gay marriage.
   2738. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:10 PM (#4274311)
Put another way how can every state send more money to elections outside its borders than it does to election inside its borders?

Koch brothers. Or putting it another way, with the presence of Super-Pacs funding for a lot of races can come from very few places.
   2739. BDC Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:10 PM (#4274313)
A misogynistic, homophobic dictator who helped keep little-boy raping priests raping little boys can get more repulsive?

You know you're on the wrong side of history when somebody strings together an abusive rant about your activities and doesn't mention the Hitler Youth.

   2740. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:12 PM (#4274314)
The average voter probably has no idea just how opposed blacks and Latinos have been when it comes to gay marriage.

The average voter probably has no idea just how opposed the average Republican have been it comes to your typical far right extreme position. No wait, they haven't been opposed.
   2741. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:13 PM (#4274316)
bitter

i don't have the link handy but the remark about state races is mostly accurate

out of state money from teh uber pacs is flooding across the states.
   2742. Bitter Mouse Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:13 PM (#4274318)
Koch brothers.


They have to come from some state though right? And that state (at least) is a net exporter of campaign donations.
   2743. Famous Original Joe C Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4274324)
[2739] That's a winning post right there.
   2744. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4274328)
Morty (#2706), Bob (#2712), RonJ2 (#2729),

I hope you three weren't thinking that those views represented my own opinions. My point in reciting them was simply to show that from whichever side you viewed those issues, there is a clear and distinct choice between the two major parties today.
   2745. Greg K Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4274329)
England as I understand it, the GP functions as gate-keeper to specialists.

I was quite surprised by my first interaction with the UK system last month. I went in to my clinic with a broken finger and the nurse said, "oh, that's broken...take this card and get an x-ray". Walked into the x-ray clinic, got that done (10 minute wait), then went to A&E to have a doctor take a look at it and tell me what it meant (20 minute wait), she sent me to the fracture clinic were a specialist sorted me out (15-20 minute wait). In all it took me a little under two hours...I was expecting to be there all night.
   2746. formerly dp Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4274330)
The average voter probably has no idea just how opposed blacks and Latinos have been when it comes to gay marriage.


NPR ran a ton of stories about this in the build-up to the North Carolina vote. I recall similar stories in California as well focused on Latinos. It's the same culprit in both cases-- the church-- but it's the religious right who encouraged people to vote Republican around the issue.

I know you won't believe this, but regardless: without the active campaign against gay marriage by the religious right, we never would have seen the gay civil rights movement mobilize around this issue, largely because of identity politics within the movement.
   2747. Bitter Mouse Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4274334)
A misogynistic, homophobic dictator who helped keep little-boy raping priests raping little boys can get more repulsive?

You know you're on the wrong side of history when somebody strings together an abusive rant about your activities and doesn't mention the Hitler Youth.


I laughed. EDIT: This undersells the comment. I laugh every time I read this. Well done.

The average voter probably has no idea just how opposed blacks and Latinos have been when it comes to gay marriage.


And the President changed black minds (many of them) on that very issue not so long ago. Almost like he was trying to influence his party and the nation as a whole.

out of state money from teh uber pacs is flooding across the states.


If superpacs exist outside of any state, or we are counting money (for example) from Wisconsin, laundered through a SuperPAC, and spent in Wisconsin as out of state money - then I guess it is possible. Still seems a bit odd to me though. It is like everyone in every country saying they want "export led growth", except that is not possible because if someone is a net exporter someone else has to be a net importer (not an exact analogy though I admit, so please don't go all Joe K on this one).
   2748. formerly dp Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4274338)
You know you're on the wrong side of history when somebody strings together an abusive rant about your activities and doesn't mention the Hitler Youth.


Dude, recognize an attempt to not to Godwin a thread when you see it!
   2749. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4274341)
Is the United States in a war?

No. Not under our Constitution, anyway. It's up to Congress to declare war, and it hasn't, so we're not.
The President may not claim "war powers" if we're not "at war." Congress has been punting on this issue for years, but maybe the judiciary's starting to come around.

If we could be "at war" with an organization, like Al Qaeda, how would it ever end? Who would decide? How would we know? What would be The Decider's incentive to end this "war"?
   2750. Rants Mulliniks Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:24 PM (#4274347)
OK, but how is what you are doing going to change anything for the better? Step 1 is remove yourself from the process. Step 3 is Better Government. What is Step 2?


Step 2 is one of the many forms of making your voice heard other than merely voting. Calling your elected representative and demanding action on a particular issue. Disseminating information on an important issue that the media has chosen to ignore or misrepresent. Actively protesting in the street. If you work for the government or one of its agencies, not going along with directives that violate your Constitution or better judgment. Not conforming to unjust laws.

Our governments are supposed to be "for the people, by the people" but nobody here today can argue they even resemble that concept anymore.
   2751. bunyon Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4274350)
My single experience with the French health system was nothing short of superb. I think European health care is massively expensive and the very best European health care probably isn't quite as good as what we can get here in the US.

But, our health care system is expensive and, on average, probably not as good as Canada or Europe.
   2752. JL Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:28 PM (#4274352)
But you never hear Dems excoriating blacks or Latinos for their position on gay marriage. To hear Dems (and the media) tell it, only a small number of religious right-wingers are keeping gay marriage from winning in each of the 50 states.

In 2008, gay marriage lost in California by over 4 points on the same day Obama beat McCain by 24 points. But somehow it was only the bigoted right-wingers' fault.


Well, the assertion was made that the Democratic party is more monolithic and less tolerant of opposing views than the Republicans. This certainly is evidence that such an assertion is wrong.

As to your point, I am not really sure what it is other than a reflexive "Democrats and Obama bad" meme. While I agree that blacks and latinos have not been "excoriated" I have seen them critized for this position Their position does seem to be slowly changing. I have never heard anyone say that it was only "a small number of religous right-wingers [that] are keeping gay marriage from winning."

Of course, I have never heard anti-welfare Republicans excoriate farmers over taking crop subsidies, including those to not farm, despite those farmers voting solidly Republican.
   2753. Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:30 PM (#4274356)
And the President changed black minds (many of them) on that very issue not so long ago. Almost like he was trying to influence his party and the nation as a whole.

Yes, ~20 percent of blacks suddenly supported gay marriage as soon as Barack Obama (half-heartedly) blessed it. A truly pathetic display.
   2754. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:35 PM (#4274358)
Yes, ~20 percent of blacks suddenly supported gay marriage as soon as Barack Obama (half-heartedly) blessed it. A truly pathetic display.

Yeah, and how many Republicans now support Romney despite a ton of them hating him for the last 4 years?
   2755. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4274360)
As to your point, I am not really sure what it is other than a reflexive "Democrats and Obama bad" meme. While I agree that blacks and latinos have not been "excoriated" I have seen them critized for this position Their position does seem to be slowly changing.


There's a cause-effect relationship here. You don't excoriate people you're trying to convince. You excoriate people who have shown themselves to be uninterested in being convinced. There is a sea change in African American views on gay and lesbian rights in the works.
   2756. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4274369)
Tried to make my quadriennial donation to the Republican candidate today, and the website froze on me. All morning long. Nothing builds confidence like an inability to take my goddamned money when I'm offering it to you.
   2757. Rants Mulliniks Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:42 PM (#4274374)
I think we can see where globalization is heading.


I wish more people could see it.
   2758. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:51 PM (#4274387)
Yes, ~20 percent of blacks suddenly supported gay marriage as soon as Barack Obama (half-heartedly) blessed it. A truly pathetic display.


Actually, 20% of the community stopped saying they didn't support equality as soon as they had some sort of lever to defend their position against pushback from their elders.
   2759. zonk Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4274391)

Actually, 20% of the community stopped saying they didn't support equality as soon as they had some sort of lever to defend their position against pushback from their elders.


Leaders lead -- Obama is late to that role on specific issue, but just based on before and after polling, his support clearly had an effect, so I laud him for that, tardy though he may be.
   2760. formerly dp Posted: October 17, 2012 at 03:57 PM (#4274394)
Yes, ~20 percent of blacks suddenly supported gay marriage as soon as Barack Obama (half-heartedly) blessed it. A truly pathetic display.


Care to explain how this is pathetic? Or is that just an adjective you've set auto-correct to insert every time you type the letters O-B-A-M-A in a post?
   2761. Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 17, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4274414)
Care to explain how this is pathetic? Or is that just an adjective you've set auto-correct to insert every time you type the letters O-B-A-M-A in a post?

It's pathetic for how shallow and cavalier the switch was. If a fifth or more of blacks were opposed to gay marriage based on little more than whim, there's no better word to describe it than "pathetic."
   2762. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2012 at 04:11 PM (#4274417)
It's pathetic for how shallow and cavalier the switch was. If a fifth or more of blacks Republicans were opposed to gay marriage Romney based on little more than whim, there's no better word to describe it than "pathetic."

FTFY
   2763. formerly dp Posted: October 17, 2012 at 04:18 PM (#4274430)
It's pathetic for how shallow and cavalier the switch was. If a fifth or more of blacks were opposed to gay marriage based on little more than whim, there's no better word to describe it than "pathetic."


Still struggling with nuanced thinking, eh?

Can you imagine a more charitable interpretation of this turn of events, or is "all blacks are mindless Obama-obeying drones" too deeply engrained in your ideology to abandon at this point. The stories coming out of NC were basically of people who had highly conflicted feelings on the subject already, where their church (local peer-group) was in tension with the broader cultural wave of support for gay civil rights. And this is why so many on the left have been so critical of Obama's stance on the subject.
   2764. Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 17, 2012 at 04:22 PM (#4274438)
That's your idea of nuanced thinking? It's about as nuanced as Jim Jones' Kool-Aid.

Only days after Obama's miraculous election-year flip-flop re: gay marriage, 20-plus percent of blacks also miraculously changed their position. I didn't use the phrase "mindless Obama-obeying drones," but if the phrase fits, ...
   2765. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2012 at 04:33 PM (#4274461)
Isn't joek the same guy who lives to talk about voter enthusiasm?
   2766. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: October 17, 2012 at 04:43 PM (#4274489)
Of course, I have never heard anti-welfare Republicans excoriate farmers over taking crop subsidies, including those to not farm, despite those farmers voting solidly Republican.


I have
   2767. Ron J2 Posted: October 17, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4274497)
You know you're on the wrong side of history when somebody strings together an abusive rant about your activities and doesn't mention the Hitler Youth.


Well only the 100% morons were on his case about the Hitler Youth. (It being the internet, there's no shortage) It was mandatory.

What's more, he got out of it in record time.

Likewise his time as a AA gunner at a prison camp. He was conscripted.

   2768. JL Posted: October 17, 2012 at 04:49 PM (#4274500)
Of course, I have never heard anti-welfare Republicans excoriate farmers over taking crop subsidies, including those to not farm, despite those farmers voting solidly Republican.

I have

I have heard it critized from afar, but not excoriated. The closest I have heard is a recognition that something has to give.

Of course, I have relatives in farming states that vote Republican every time. They will look me straight in the eye and tell me that minimum wage is ruining this country, while defending crop subsidies as giving a farmer an honest days pay for their work.
   2769. zenbitz Posted: October 17, 2012 at 04:51 PM (#4274506)
But somehow it was only the bigoted right-wingers' fault.


No, they are both bigoted. But sometimes you need Stalin to beat Hitler. I was thinking of throwing my presidential vote away on some 3rd party hack (California, so ooooo big threat) but I have decided to pull the level for Obama for coming out for gay marriage. Better late than never. On the rest of the important issues, I think he's at best "slightly less stupid/evil" than Romney.
   2770. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 17, 2012 at 04:54 PM (#4274517)
You know you're on the wrong side of history when somebody strings together an abusive rant about your activities and doesn't mention the Hitler Youth.


Yeah, that's going to leave a mark.
   2771. formerly dp Posted: October 17, 2012 at 04:58 PM (#4274522)
That's your idea of nuanced thinking? It's about as nuanced as Jim Jones' Kool-Aid.


And you also struggle with analogies.

Only days after Obama's miraculous election-year flip-flop re: gay marriage, 20-plus percent of blacks also miraculously changed their position.


Nuance would be where you listen to the people who were on the fence about the issue talk about their decision-making process. And what you're also ignoring is that it's not just African-Americans who are quickly changing their minds on the subject-- the swing in the past five years has been pretty dramatic. Mostly, it's coming from people realizing that extending civil rights to homosexuals does not take civil rights away from them.
   2772. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 17, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4274524)
jd

as a now retired farmer who worked at it for 40 odd years i can tell you that the majority of farmers laugh on their way to the bank. cripes with farmland values exploding most are now asset based millionaires.

subsidies, crop insurance, you name it most of it should be dissolved. j8sus chr8st i got a wool subsidy for having 20 odd sheep sheared and i think it was a check for 18 cents. think of the cost of issuing that check

your relatives know better. they are messing with you

   2773. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: October 17, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4274525)
Isn't joek the same guy who lives to talk about voter enthusiasm?


On BBTF JoeK is to the Republican Party/Romney what SBB is to Jack Morris, or what the late great Kevin was to Pedroia

If an argument favors Romney he will use it
If an argument favors Obama he will excoriate it
If a fact favors Romeny he will run it up the flag pole
If a fact favors Obama he will: i. deny it; ii. minimize it; iii attack the messenger; iv. confuse the issue

He argues for Romney/ against Obama in the way a HS debater approaches an assigned issue- no matter what what topic is raised, what fact is discussed he will assert that it favors Romney over Obama.

If a poll shows Romney up he trumpets it, if a poll shows Obama up, he claims it's biased, the sample is unrepresentative etc. If a reports says manufacturing is down he crows, if it says unemployment is down he says, no that's not the "real" unemployment numbers, or no, California has not reported, or unemployment cannot be up "X" because "payroll" is only up "y."

DMN may never openly concede an issue, but he does at least pick and choose his battles, Joek seemingly has to argue every single little thing

edit: tasteless joke removed
   2774. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:01 PM (#4274532)
cripes with farmland values exploding most are now asset based millionaires.


net or gross? I mean a healthy chunk of the populace where I live (non-farmers) are asset based millionaires if you're talking gross rather than net...

A million is just not what it used to be :-)
   2775. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4274533)
On BBTF JoeK is to the Republican Party/Romney what SBB is to Jack Morris, or what the late great Kevin was to Pedroia

Tommy in CT : Ron Guidry
   2776. Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:04 PM (#4274541)
Nuance would be where you listen to the people who were on the fence about the issue talk about their decision-making process.

So 20 percent of blacks — millions of people — all "evolved" in the same 3-day period after Obama "evolved"? Give me a break.
   2777. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:06 PM (#4274545)
johnny

i don't claim to know everybody's finances but on family farms still going it's net.

the fed governor in kc keeps fussing over the farmland bubble and i cannot blame because it's pretty crazy but shows no sign of abating

   2778. Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:10 PM (#4274559)
On BBTF JoeK is to the Republican Party/Romney what SBB is to Jack Morris, or what the late great Kevin was to Pedroia

If an argument favors Romney he will use it
If an argument favors Obama he will excoriate it
If a fact favors Romeny he will run it up the flag pole
If a fact favors Obama he will: i. deny it; ii. minimize it; iii attack the messenger; iv. confuse the issue

Yeah, unlike all the lefties here who treat Romney and Republicans with the utmost in objectivity. Comical.

How's that Obama blowout coming?
   2779. formerly dp Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:14 PM (#4274567)
So 20 percent of blacks — millions of people — all "evolved" in the same 3-day period after Obama "evolved"? Give me a break.


I think you're overstating their commitment to the anti- position before Obama's change of position. I'm not sure why changing your position from "wanting to deny civil rights" to "wanting to grant civil rights" would be pathetic, but Romney's had far less laudable changes of heart in a far more compressed time frame, and I haven't once seen you use the word "pathetic" to describe him. But then, he's not a black or a liberal, so he evades your scrutiny.
   2780. SteveF Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:15 PM (#4274568)
It's best to wait for there to be a score before pointing to the scoreboard.
   2781. zenbitz Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4274575)
Speaking of Death Penalty etc... you non Californians can ooogle and awe over our 10 exciting state-wide propositions. As a reminder, the CA State initiatives are AMENDMENTS TO THE STATE CONSTITUTION... and pretty much the only way to raise state revenues.

My general feeling on this whole process is "why, exactly, do we have a State Legislature? Isn't this stuff their job?"

at no 30... we have... Income tax increase on the rich (household > $250K I think) with blah blah about how it's all going to schools etc.

at no 31... we have... some insane amateur proposal to making the budgeting cycles 2 years (instead of 1) and give the Governor budget veto power, as well as prevent the legistature from spending more than $25M without off setting revenus.. blah bde blah hardly matters because it will never pass.

at no 32 ... we have ... a sneaky campaign "reform" proposal that prevents "monies from automatic payroll deductions" from being used for campaign finance. As near as I can tell this a thinly-veiled union buster, although it's technically not union specific.

at no 33 ... we have ... some bastard insurance exec trying to screw people who let their car insurance lapse.

at no 34 ... we have .... Repeal the Death Penalty. I expect this gets 22% of the vote, including mine. Although THIS at least probably should be a ballot initiative.

at no 35 ... we have ... "Increased criminal penalties on human and sex trafficking". Scientifically designed to get 88% of the vote (not including mine).

at no 36 ... we have ... Nerfing the 3-strikes law so that 3rd-strike only counts if it's "a really bad one". For it, I guess.

at no 37 ... we have ... Mandatory labeling of GMO food!!! Perhaps we should simply restrict it to all food that might have DNA in it.

at no 38 ... we have ... MORE BIGGER State Income tax increases (to help the schools, natch). This one actually raises my personal income taxes by 1.5% or so. Still I can happily vote for it knowing there is zero chance it passes.

at no 39 ... we have ... Income tax increase for "mulitstate" businesses. Apparently some business tax loophole for corps that don't have offices/employees within the state. Free money, right? This one will pass, I think. Supposed to earmark the money for Clean Energy or some other buzzword.

And 40... Redistricting Rubberstamp!!! This is some BS power move by someone who no longer is campaigning against it to put it on the ballot. If it (somehow) fails, they just have to redraw. But it's illegal to remove from the ballot, so it stays.


And on the issue of liberal group think. My wife's Teachers' Union flyer recommends:
YNNNY YYYNY Y
me
YNNNY NYNYY Y

I might be wrong about the Union endoring repeal of the Death Penalty... but it's sure to fail anyway.



   2782. SteveF Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4274576)
I think you're overstating their commitment to the anti- position before Obama's change of position.


There are a good chunk of black voters that will back everything Obama says and does partly because he's black. There are also a good chunk of white voters that will criticize anything Obama says and does partly because he's black. Neither of those facts is all that surprising or illuminating.
   2783. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4274578)
joe

folks here know i have voted for every republican candidate since ike and except for a one or two doofi who are not regulars i have not had an exchange issue with the resident hippies here

if anything i have had more issues with numchucks here who claim to be members of the gop
   2784. JL Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4274582)
jd

as a now retired farmer who worked at it for 40 odd years i can tell you that the majority of farmers laugh on their way to the bank. cripes with farmland values exploding most are now asset based millionaires.

subsidies, crop insurance, you name it most of it should be dissolved. j8sus chr8st i got a wool subsidy for having 20 odd sheep sheared and i think it was a check for 18 cents. think of the cost of issuing that check

your relatives know better. they are messing with you


Of that I have no doubt. Sadly, government benefits are good as long as the go to good God-fearing salt of earth folks. Others are just lazy.
   2785. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:19 PM (#4274583)
How's that Obama blowout coming?

Coming along nicely.
   2786. zenbitz Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:20 PM (#4274586)
How's that Obama blowout coming?


Don't bring me into your filth-wallowing. I admitted I read the tea leaves wrong, and "Kudos" to the Romney campaign for not utterly self disintegrating.
   2787. Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4274594)
I think you're overstating their commitment to the anti- position before Obama's change of position.

Right, they just overwhelmingly voted "no" in election after election in state after state, but they didn't really mean it.
   2788. formerly dp Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:26 PM (#4274607)
There are a good chunk of black voters that will back everything Obama says and does partly because he's black.


Without the sea change occurring at the broader cultural level 1) Obama never changes his position, 2) Obama's change of position would not have been enough to to dislodge African-American youth from the views of their peer group (read: people in their church).
   2789. Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:29 PM (#4274612)
Michelle Obama says we're in a "huge recovery" but food stamp enrollment is trending higher and higher. What gives?
   2790. formerly dp Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:29 PM (#4274613)
Right, they just overwhelmingly voted "no" in election after election in state after state, but they didn't really mean it.


How do you explain the drastic swings in public opinion on the subject among non-blacks? Was their change in position also "pathetic" or are white people allowed to change their minds without you passing this sort of judgement?

   2791. Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:30 PM (#4274615)
Without the sea change occurring at the broader cultural level 1) Obama never changes his position,

So Obama is a "leader" for responding to a "sea change"? I guess you guys really do believe in that "leading from behind" nonsense.
   2792. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:30 PM (#4274617)
Michelle Obama says we're in a "huge recovery" but food stamp enrollment is trending higher and higher. What gives?

To bad the old Vaudeville circuit is dead. You've got a helluva act.
   2793. Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:33 PM (#4274620)
How do you explain the drastic swings in public opinion on the subject among non-blacks? Was their change in position also "pathetic" or are white people allowed to change their minds without you passing this sort of judgement?

Did 20 percent of whites change their mind in the three days after Cheney came out for gay marriage (which, incidentally, he did years before Obama)? No.
   2794. formerly dp Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:37 PM (#4274626)
So Obama is a "leader" for responding to a "sea change"? I guess you guys really do believe in that "leading from behind" nonsense.


Joe, you really are some kind of bad at this stuff.

I know you think you're an expert on what liberals think, but plenty of us criticized Obama for his positions on gay marriage and for his general lack of support for gay civil rights. I have said on this board that it's one of the reasons I won't be voting for Obama. FFS, I was taking him to task for that in my post.

But again, we're left with the same conundrum-- as bad as I think Obama has been on this issue, and as much as I think he has taken homosexual support for granted, Mitt "I'll hate on gay people whenever my base wants me to" Romey will actively much worse.
   2795. McCoy Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:38 PM (#4274628)

Did 20 percent of whites change their mind in the three days after Cheney came out for gay marriage (which, incidentally, he did years before Obama)? No.


I forget, was Cheney an elected official when he changed his mind?
   2796. formerly dp Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:39 PM (#4274629)
Did 20 percent of whites change their mind in the three days after Cheney came out for gay marriage (which, incidentally, he did years before Obama)? No.


I like it when you think you're making a point, but you're actually not. The boldness with which you state nonsense is commendable.
   2797. Tilden Katz Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:39 PM (#4274632)
Did 20 percent of whites change their mind in the three days after Cheney came out for gay marriage


White people don't like Dick Cheney.
   2798. Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:43 PM (#4274639)
I forget, was Cheney an elected official when he changed his mind?

Why, yes, he was.
   2799. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:44 PM (#4274641)
I forget, was Cheney an elected official when he changed his mind?


Nope. Waited until he was out of office before valuing his daughter above his Party. Good little Bolshevik, Dick.
   2800. Joe Kehoskie Posted: October 17, 2012 at 05:45 PM (#4274648)
I like it when you think you're making a point, but you're actually not. The boldness with which you state nonsense is commendable.

Oh, no, some anti-Catholic bigot doesn't like my political opinions.
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