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Friday, August 01, 2014

OT: Politics, August 2014: DNC criticizes Christie’s economic record with baseball video

As Gov. Chris Christie prepares to cap off his trip to New Hampshire tonight with a fundraiser at a minor-league baseball game, the Democratic National Committee has released a online video taking a swing at the Republican governor’s handling of New Jersey’s economy.

The clip is modeled after an old-time newsreel — the kind that would have been shown in movie houses when Babe Ruth ruled the baseball diamond in the 1920s.

It notes that under Christie — a possible candidate for the Republican nomination for president in 2016 — New Jersey has among the highest property taxes and slowest job growth in the U.S.

“On his economic record, Chris Christie strikes out,” the video’s narrator says.

Bitter Mouse Posted: August 01, 2014 at 09:10 AM | 6359 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: new jersey, politics, video

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   1801. JE (Jason) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 03:52 PM (#4767330)
I don't think Jason is saying that at all.

More importantly, Jason was supposed to be at the gym more than an hour ago but made the fateful decision to refresh the OTP page. :(
   1802. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 08, 2014 at 03:53 PM (#4767331)
And I'll cosign that I don't think Zop is trolling. That he sincerely believes what he's said. Truly eye opening for me.


Look, frankly I could give two shits about whether others think that Andy is an anti-semite or not, but the point was that he was saying that no lefties here are anti-semites and ergo their critique's of Israel should carry weight, and it rubbed me the wrong way coming from the one poster on BBTF who I've perceived to be an anti-semite, and I'm a card-carrying (well, synagogue membership card carrying) jew no less. YMMV.
   1803. tshipman Posted: August 08, 2014 at 03:55 PM (#4767332)
Hmmm, were you referring to a crooked lawyer who's got a daughter living in Ariel?


Shyster is not a term based on religion or ethnicity, but rather competence.

It is bizarre that you are defending 'zop here.
   1804. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 08, 2014 at 03:55 PM (#4767333)
Right, I forgot, it's impossible to criticize Israel for killing civilians, expanding settlements and working against any lasting peace without using anti-semitic language.

Not really difficult for those who make the effort. I believe there is only one regular poster here who liberally sprinkles his posts on the Mideast with references to "neo-cons", "undue influence" & "dual loyalties". Even he has cut back on such nonsense after it was noted that those wishing not to be taken as anti-Semitic should avoid using the language of anti-Semites.
   1805. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 03:55 PM (#4767334)
He's a bomb thrower, and indiscriminate in where he picks up his bombs. Sometimes he picks them up from an anti-semitic source.


It sounds like this new "ratio" analysis - never before used to evaluate the legitimacy of a military action -- was floated on the lefty blogs and then picked up on by the lefties here, and repeated without really understanding the significance of the ratio criticism.

Then, when showed what the implications were of it, instead of backing down they doubled down and claimed that they were the victims of others who were unfairly reading them.
   1806. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 08, 2014 at 03:56 PM (#4767335)
Dog whistle dog whistle.


Amen. I didn't know I had to restrict myself to instances where someone expressly says he hates the Jews to perceive anti-semitism. Apparently the dog whistle died with Lee Atwater's cancer addled brain.
   1807. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 03:56 PM (#4767337)
Look, frankly I could give two shits about whether others think that Andy is an anti-semite or not, but the point was that he was saying that no lefties here are anti-semites and ergo their critique's of Israel should carry weight, and it rubbed me the wrong way coming from the one poster on BBTF who I've perceived to be an anti-semite, and I'm a card-carrying (well, synagogue membership card carrying) jew no less. YMMV.

I'm sure you're being sincere, I'm just saying I frankly don't see it. And, I've personally called Sam out for making comments that seemed to have anti-semitic overtones (and again, I don't think Sam's an anti-semite) so, I'm certainly not blind to the issue.
   1808. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 03:57 PM (#4767339)
Shyster is not a term based on religion or ethnicity, but rather competence.

Not competence, crookedness. A Shyster is a dishonest or unscrupulous lawyer
   1809. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 08, 2014 at 03:58 PM (#4767340)
I'm sure you're being sincere, I'm just saying I frankly don't see it. And, I've called Sam out for making comments that seemed to have anti-semitic overtones (and again, I don't think Sam's an anti-semite) so, I'm certainly not blind to the issue.


And while I've called out Sam too for comments, I don't think he's anti-semitic. There's just so much spewing out from Sam that sometimes rhetoric gets caught up in the invective pump that he doesn't really mean. With Andy, its more of a pattern of coming too close to what I perceive to be the line, and dog whistle words and rhetoric.
   1810. JE (Jason) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 03:59 PM (#4767341)
Shyster is not a term based on religion or ethnicity, but rather competence.

It is bizarre that you are defending 'zop here.

Shipman, I was trying to insert a little humor. (Okay, so I failed.) Note that I defended Andy.

Your views on Israel seem incredibly ignorant but I detect nothing sinister about them.
   1811. Lassus Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:00 PM (#4767342)
Then, when showed what the implications were of it, instead of backing down they doubled down and claimed that they were the victims of others who were unfairly reading them.

I'd never heard the term prior, and I find the idea of using that argument as proof people want more Israeli deaths to be insulting to anyone's intelligence.
   1812. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:01 PM (#4767344)
Interestingly, Urban Dictionary used to define shyster with reference to Jews, but no longer does. The definition from 2007: "A shyster is someone, usually a Jew, who acts in a disreputable, unethical or unscrupulous way, especially in the practice of law and politics, or a con artist."

No more references to Jews in the UD definition. Had to have been intentional.

From the Oxford American Dictionary:

"A person, especially a lawyer, who uses unscrupulous, fraudulent, or deceptive methods in business."

I mean, gee ... it's not as if any bigot has ever accused a Jew of using unscrupulous, fraudulent, or deceptive methods in business, so how could anyone possibly think the term has anything to do with Jews and anti-Semitism????
   1813. tshipman Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:02 PM (#4767346)
Not competence, crookedness. A Shyster is a dishonest or unscrupulous lawyer


Sorry, was referring to etymology, but reading my comment, I realize the writing was unclear.

Not really difficult for those who make the effort. I believe there is only one regular poster here who liberally sprinkles his posts on the Mideast with references to "neo-cons", "undue influence" & "dual loyalties". Even he has cut back on such nonsense after it was noted that those wishing not to be taken as anti-Semitic should avoid using the language of anti-Semites.


"Neo-con" does not equal "Jew." Dick Cheney is not noted as member of the Tribe.

I've never seen Andy claim "dual loyalties" as a reason to ignore people.

"Undue influence" is not an anti-semitic term. It is a criticism of foreign policy. This whole sub-thread has been a great example of how little it takes to be labeled an antisemite though.
   1814. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:03 PM (#4767347)
"A person, especially a lawyer, who uses unscrupulous, fraudulent, or deceptive methods in business." I mean, gee ... it's not as if any bigot has ever accused a Jew of using unscrupulous, fraudulent, or deceptive methods in business, so how could anyone possibly think the term has anything to do with Jews and anti-Semitism????

People have called Jews every name in the book. If you use that standard, every insult is going to be out of bounds.
   1815. JE (Jason) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:04 PM (#4767348)
"Neo-con" does not equal "Jew." Dick Cheney is not noted as member of the Tribe.

Unless every neo-Con that person names is, you know, Jewish, then follows it up with talk of sinister plots.

EDIT: Cheney, like Bolton, is often labeled a "neo-Con" but he's really more of a standard-issue hawk.
   1816. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:04 PM (#4767349)
"Neo-con" does not equal "Jew."

The prominent neo-cons are predominantly Jewish. It has that connotation.

Dick Cheney is not noted as member of the Tribe.

Dick Cheney is not really a neo-con. He was always conservative.

From the Wiki article.

The term "neoconservative" refers to those who made the ideological journey from the anti-Stalinist left to the camp of American conservatism.[2] Neoconservatives frequently advocate the "assertive" promotion of democracy and promotion of "American national interest" in international affairs including by means of military force.[3][4] The movement had its intellectual roots in the Jewish[5] monthly review magazine Commentary.[6][7] C. Bradley Thompson, a professor at Clemson University, claims that most influential neoconservatives refer explicitly to the theoretical ideas in the philosophy of Leo Strauss (1899–1973).[8]

   1817. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:05 PM (#4767350)
Look, frankly I could give two shits about whether others think that Andy is an anti-semite or not, but the point was that he was saying that no lefties here are anti-semites and ergo their critique's of Israel should carry weight,

That's only half true. I don't think that there are any anti-semites here on BTF, but I assign "weight" on the basis of people's arguments, not on their identity as "liberals" or "conservatives". As I've said, I back Israel's reaction to being under rocket attacks and subterranean infiltration, but I don't see that as any particular reflection of my overall political stance, other that as a general stance I don't like to see civilians be targeted by unprovoked attacks.

and it rubbed me the wrong way coming from the one poster on BBTF who I've perceived to be an anti-semite, and as a card-carrying (well, synagogue membership card carrying) jew no less. YMMV.

Without getting all Obamaish on you, 'zop, if you're ever in the DC area you should stop by our house some time. I don't think it'd even take a single word out of me to convince you of the absurdity of your thoughts. All it would take would be a wordless tour around the living room. Jason might have an idea of what I mean by this.

   1818. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:06 PM (#4767352)
"Neo-con" does not equal "Jew."


Yeah, this idea -- or rather its opposite, whereby "neo-con" does equal "Jew" -- was news to me, too. Glad to know I'm not the only one apparently insensitive to anti-Semitic dogwhistling.

Is there a guide somewhere?
   1819. 'zop sympathizes with the wrong ####### people Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:06 PM (#4767353)
to be fair, shyster has a clear history of being riiiight on the line, regardless of etymology.

See, e.g.,
http://observer.com/2003/04/national-review-and-shyster-heaven/

Or, its listed in this collection of slurs:
http://www.rsdb.org/search?q=jews

   1820. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:06 PM (#4767354)
It sounds like this new "ratio" analysis - never before used to evaluate the legitimacy of a military action -- was floated on the lefty blogs and then picked up on by the lefties here, and repeated without really understanding the significance of the ratio criticism.

That's exactly what happened. The lefties take their rhetorical marching orders from the lefty echo chamber, all with the glassy eyed look of Raymond Shaw in full flashback.
   1821. Lassus Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:07 PM (#4767355)
The prominent neo-cons are predominantly Jewish. It has that connotation.

I did actually date a member of the Podheretz/Abrams clan briefly.


The lefties take their rhetorical marching orders from the lefty echo chamber, all with the glassy eyed look of Raymond Shaw in full flashback.

Don't ever leave us again, SBB.
   1822. The Good Face Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:10 PM (#4767358)
That's exactly what happened. The lefties take their rhetorical marching orders from the lefty echo chamber, all with the glassy eyed look of Raymond Shaw in full flashback.


To be fair, it WAS really funny when they finally realized the implications of that line of argument. The flailing, backpedalling and whimpers of being willfully "misunderstood" by "uncharitable" meanies was delightful.
   1823. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:11 PM (#4767359)
to be fair, shyster has a clear history of being riiiight on the line, regardless of etymology.

If shyster is on the line, where are all the constant references to Italians and organized crime?
   1824. JE (Jason) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:11 PM (#4767360)
The prominent neo-cons are predominantly Jewish. It has that connotation.

Agreed, Snapper, although Jeane Kirkpatrick, a Catholic, was the highest ranking neo-Con in the Reagan administration.
   1825. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:13 PM (#4767361)
People have called Jews every name in the book. If you use that standard, every insult is going to be out of bounds.

The definition seems to encapsulate pretty much the core smear against Jews (though I guess it leaves out cheap). So if there was a contest for one word that incorporates the core anti-Semitic slurs through the centuries, you'd be hard-pressed to find one better than "shyster."

Coincidence? Unlikely.
   1826. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:13 PM (#4767362)
Agreed, Snapper, although Jeane Kirkpatrick, a Catholic, was the highest ranking neo-Con in the Reagan administration.

Sure. It's not exclusive.
   1827. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:14 PM (#4767363)
The prominent neo-cons are predominantly Jewish. It has that connotation.


I did actually date a member of the Podheretz/Abrams clan briefly.

And BITD three of my best customers were William Safire, Doug Feith**, and Charles Krauthammer's wife, who bought countless numbers of presumably non-anti-semitic books and posters for him. All three of them said that mine was their favorite book shop in the Washington area, but maybe they were just trying to shyster me up for discounts. (smile)

**Now Feith actually bought several books by the noted Arabist Glubb Pasha, so perhaps Doug was one of those self-hating Jews.
   1828. Ron J2 Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:14 PM (#4767364)
#1800 Had a mental bet how long before that came up and who mentioned it first.

I thought it moderately likely that DMN would be the first to make the reference, but I expected a very quick reference.
   1829. The Good Face Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:14 PM (#4767365)
If shyster is on the line, where are all the constant references to Italians and organized crime?


I've never heard an Italian mobster referred to as a "shyster". It's always either directed at Jews specifically, or lawyers/financial types generally.
   1830. tshipman Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:14 PM (#4767366)
EDIT: Cheney, like Bolton, is often labeled a "neo-Con" but he's really more of a standard-issue hawk.

Dick Cheney is not really a neo-con. He was always conservative.


I'm aware of the original use of the term, but it's shifted over time.

Neoconservatism is a political movement born in the United States during the 1960s. Many of its adherents rose to political fame during the Republican presidential administrations of the 1970s, 1980s, 1990s and 2000s. Neoconservatives peaked in influence during the presidency of George W. Bush, when they played a major role in promoting and planning the invasion of Iraq.[1] Prominent neoconservatives in the Bush administration included Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, Paul Wolfowitz, John Bolton, Elliott Abrams, Richard Perle, and Paul Bremer.


I think only Wolfowitz is Jewish on that list, but I could be wrong.

Side note: I actually worked a convention where L. Paul Bremer was the featured speaker. In 2006. Dude was an ass.
   1831. Lassus Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:18 PM (#4767368)
I think only Wolfowitz is Jewish on that list, but I could be wrong.

Elliott Abrams.
   1832. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:18 PM (#4767369)
The prominent neo-cons are predominantly Jewish. It has that connotation.


Agreed, Snapper, although Jeane Kirkpatrick, a Catholic, was the highest ranking neo-Con in the Reagan administration.

And yet we might observe that those who know the most about the history of the neo-con movement are the least likely to make stupid overgeneralizations about the religious makeup of its membership. And of course those who know something about that history also know that its origins were rooted more in domestic disputes surrounding Great Society programs than they were about anything relating to Israel----that part came later.
   1833. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:19 PM (#4767370)
I've never heard an Italian mobster referred to as a "shyster". It's always either directed at Jews specifically, or lawyers/financial types generally.

I didn't mean that term specifically. I just mean the pervasiveness of references to Italians and organized crime in our country. Talking about guys with crooked noses, etc. Hell, if another group engages in organized crime they still call it the "Chinese/Irish/Jewsih Mafia".
   1834. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:20 PM (#4767372)
I think only Wolfowitz is Jewish on that list, but I could be wrong.

Elliott Abrams.


Richard Perle too.
   1835. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:20 PM (#4767373)
Actually, in looking more closely, the Urban Dictionary has six definitions of the term; the sixth is "A Jewish professional who cons people."
   1836. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:21 PM (#4767374)
I think only Wolfowitz is Jewish on that list, but I could be wrong.


Dunno. Going purely by surname, I'm assuming Abrams is, too. (Wikipedia says he's a former member of the American Jewish Committee's National Advisory Council, which I guess falls short of sealing the deal, but still.) And maybe Perle?



Edit: Kosher coke to snapper, I see.
   1837. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:22 PM (#4767375)
Actually, in looking more closely, the Urban Dictionary has six definitions of the term; the sixth is "A Jewish professional who cons people."

So, a slight connotation at best. Not nearly enough to label someone.
   1838. JE (Jason) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:22 PM (#4767376)
I think only Wolfowitz is Jewish on that list, but I could be wrong.

Elliott Abrams.

Richard Perle.

I've never thought of Bremer, a Catholic (I think), as a neo-Con.
   1839. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:23 PM (#4767377)
Also, note to self: Never choose tshipman as my partner if I find myself involved in a game of Name That Jew.
   1840. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:27 PM (#4767380)
I've never thought of Bremer, a Catholic (I think), as a neo-Con.

Don't know, but based on this (from Wiki) I'm going to guess WASP.

Born in Hartford, Connecticut, Bremer was educated at New Canaan Country School, Kent School, and Phillips Andover Academy.


Edit: Wait. Can I call someone a WASP?
   1841. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:27 PM (#4767381)
So, a slight connotation at best. Not nearly enough to label someone.

Well, I was more correcting my earlier reference to it not having any Jewish-based definitions. Remember the one that isn't there anymore, but was in 2007: "A shyster is someone, usually a Jew, who acts in a disreputable, unethical or unscrupulous way, especially in the practice of law and politics, or a con artist."

The fact that the term is "usually" aimed at a Jew seems unassailable, but I guess it's an empirical question in the end.
   1842. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:29 PM (#4767382)
When y'alls get through naming all the Jews of neo-conservatism, maybe you can start to name all the Jews in the original Bolshevik government. That used to be the favorite pastime of a lot of people with religion on the brain, and who knows, maybe it'll come up on some TV quiz show.
   1843. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:29 PM (#4767383)
The fact that the term is "usually" aimed at a Jew seems unassailable, but I guess it's an empirical question in the end.

I guess, it depends where you are. If you're in NY, where a high % of lawyers are Jews, I guess it's aimed at Jews a lot. If you're in Omaha, I assume most people who are called shyster are gentiles.
   1844. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:30 PM (#4767384)
"Neo-con" does not equal "Jew." I've never seen Andy claim "dual loyalties" as a reason to ignore people. "Undue influence" is not an anti-semitic term. It is a criticism of foreign policy. This whole sub-thread has been a great example of how little it takes to be labeled an antisemite though.

Oh please. Repeatedly using "neo-con", "undue influence" & "dual loyalty" while criticizing Israel, U.S. policy toward Israel, and blaming American Jews for that policy, is a pretty good indication of anti-Semitism. Why use the language of anti-Semites if you don't want to be taken for one?

AFAIK, Andy hasn't used any such language (Sam has). Which makes Zop's charge more than a bit bizarre. It's one thing to use his comment as a means of chiding some on the left for adopting an "only the victim's perspective matters" analysis in other contexts, as he appears to have done in #1732, or mocking the claim that perfectly normal references are sinister "dog whistles", as was also the case, but Zop seems to have gone well beyond that, and I have seen no evidence to support his claim.
   1845. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:35 PM (#4767388)
If your in Omaha, I assume most people who are called shyster are gentiles.


That's what I was thinking of just now with regard to Little Rock. Most of the lawyers I used to cover were definitely not Jewish; ditto for the judges. (Though one judge's case coordinator was the sister of probably the town's most prominent rabbi. Hmmmm.)
   1846. JE (Jason) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:37 PM (#4767389)
AFAIK, Andy hasn't used any such language (Sam has).

This is why it's helpful to show up to softball games and other Primate meet-ups. Because of last year's game in Central Park, I was able to discern that Sam is merely an out-of-control agent provocateur, not an anti-Semite, as well as having an unhealthy love affair with lousy Belgian beer.
   1847. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:38 PM (#4767391)
If you're in Omaha, I assume most people who are called shyster are gentiles.

The word has appeared in the pages of the Omaha World-Herald eight times since 1983. Unfortunately, you have to pay to see the full article. The only reference we can glean from the short blurbs was to "Shirley Shyster" a "greedy lawyer" in some 1983 play in a local theater. No way to tell if Ms. Shyster was Jewish.
   1848. JE (Jason) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:40 PM (#4767392)
Don't know, but based on this (from Wiki) I'm going to guess WASP.

Whaddaya know, Snapper?

From Michael Hirsh's scathing piece on Bremer in Washington Monthly:

L. Paul Bremer III inspires fierce loyalty and affection in many of the people who have worked for him. It's no surprise why. Bremer is, by all accounts, a truly decent man: a devoted husband and father, a devout Catholic who kept framed on his desk in Baghdad the Latin inscription non sum dignus, or "I am not worthy."
   1849. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:40 PM (#4767394)
Unfortunately, you have to pay to see the full article.


An obviously anti-Semitic reference to the stereotypically money-grubbing tendencies of media magnates, all of whom of course are Jews.
   1850. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:44 PM (#4767397)
Whaddaya know, Snapper?

From Michael Hirsh's scathing piece on Bremer in Washington Monthly:

L. Paul Bremer III inspires fierce loyalty and affection in many of the people who have worked for him. It's no surprise why. Bremer is, by all accounts, a truly decent man: a devoted husband and father, a devout Catholic who kept framed on his desk in Baghdad the Latin inscription non sum dignus, or "I am not worthy."


Wow. He was born in 1941. Must have been very lonely at Mass at Kent School and Andover.
   1851. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:45 PM (#4767399)
An obviously anti-Semitic reference to the stereotypically money-grubbing tendencies of media magnates, all of whom of course are Jews.

Primey.
   1852. CrosbyBird Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:53 PM (#4767400)
You must be thinking of that guy around here---can't remember his name, but maybe you can think of it---who keeps calling Redskins fans "racists" for using the name of their favorite football team.

I just want to clarify on this point. I don't know whether Redskins fans are racists, but I do know that the team name is a racist name.

It is far from the most horrible thing in the world, but it does strike me as a little embarrassing that people actually defend it when it's so easy and so harmless to change. Even if only 10% of Native Americans really dislike it, it's still cultural appropriation, which I think always has an aspect of racism built into the mix.

The "you ARE a racist" or "you ARE an anti-Semite" conversation is a pretty worthless conversation to have anyway. Judge people on what they say and do, not on an attempt at telepathically feeling out someone's inner thoughts and motives.
   1853. Greg K Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:54 PM (#4767401)
Hell, if another group engages in organized crime they still call it the "Chinese/Irish/Jewsih Mafia".

It is interesting how words work in that way. I think when people today refer to the Irish (or whoever) mafia they are conveying, however vague, the idea of "like those Italians in the Godfather, you know?"

On the other hand, when people refer to a cabal, I think 0.001% of them mean, and expect the listener to perceive, a reference to the original "cabal" of:

Clifford, Sir Thomas
Arlington, Lord
Buckingham, Duke of
Ashley, Lord
Lauderdale, Lord

I believe the etymology is unrelated to the group (the acronym is a coincidence). But it was an obscure word until these guys came around, and their ministry popularized the word, as early modern English people were obsessed with acronyms to a disturbing degree. The word and the men were closely associated for a long time...though I think that time has perhaps passed.

Perhaps the origins of mafia will similarly pass into the trivia of history. Though I suspect not for at least a few more generations.
   1854. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 08, 2014 at 04:58 PM (#4767406)
EDIT: I should add that I have complained in the past to Jim directly, and privately, that I believe Andy's posts in the OT politics threads have been anti-semitic. This isn't something I'm just tossing off in the thread to score points - it is a sincerely held belief. FWIW.


I believe you are sincere, I also believe you are dead wrong and a paranoid loon, and I think it's despicable you went to Jim.
   1855. JE (Jason) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:03 PM (#4767410)
Also, note to self: Never choose tshipman as my partner if I find myself involved in a game of Name That Jew.

The game is called "Guess Who's the Jew" and it stars Kurt Waldheim, Jr.
   1856. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:04 PM (#4767411)
Not really difficult for those who make the effort. I believe there is only one regular poster here who liberally sprinkles his posts on the Mideast with references to "neo-cons", "undue influence" & "dual loyalties". Even he has cut back on such nonsense after it was noted that those wishing not to be taken as anti-Semitic should avoid using the language of anti-Semites.


who?

I use "neo-con" a lot, but never "dual loyalties," I may have used "undue influence" once or twice- in connection with Saudi Arabia...

Andy.. no don't think so...
BM... no

Sam? maybe, but he throws out literally everything

Kevin?

   1857. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:05 PM (#4767412)
I believe you are sincere, I also believe you are dead wrong and a paranoid loon, and I think it's despicable you went to Jim.


I will admit that I devoutely hope his complaints to Jim ended "P.S. I am not a crank."
   1858. villageidiom Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:08 PM (#4767413)
Hell, if another group engages in organized crime they still call it the "Chinese/Irish/Jewsih Mafia".
I fail to understand how Albert Belle remained unscathed in this example.
   1859. Greg K Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:08 PM (#4767414)
I had a friend visiting Toronto a while ago come across the first Jews he had met (or at least knowingly, I'm sure he's met Jewish people before, just didn't realize it). Unfortunately it was a group of really annoying 15 year old kids who got kicked out of a Jays game for being drunk and disruptive.

I shudder to think what stereotypes he has subconsciously constructed from that experience.
   1860. tshipman Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:11 PM (#4767419)
Also, note to self: Never choose tshipman as my partner if I find myself involved in a game of Name That Jew.


Yeah, apparently I'm really bad at it. I blame growing up in California.

Side note: Richard Perle's wiki page makes him sound like a real scumbag.
   1861. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:11 PM (#4767422)
I guess, it depends where you are. If you're in NY, where a high % of lawyers are Jews


I'm a lawyer, in NY, trust me shysters come in all ethnicities, religions, shapes, sizes, genders....
   1862. CrosbyBird Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:11 PM (#4767423)
But I recall a minimum of four instances where I though "whoa, this guy doesn't like jews". That's enough for me - hell, one comment is enough for me. The only other poster who's ever posted something that's raised my eyebrows is Sam, and I generally take his comments entirely in jest.

I have to admit that on occasion, I've gotten a twinge from some things Andy has said, but given the sum total of things that he has posted, concluded that it was very unlikely that he harbored real anti-Semitism so much as it merely being a cultural difference.

I think anyone in my family who heard shyster or especially Shylock used in a derogatory sense would, at least temporarily raise their hackles, because those words are often used negatively to refer to Jewish lawyers. There are people I worked with when I was an attorney myself that I wouldn't have given the same benefit of the doubt as I'd give Andy on this.

I don't think you're out of your mind to feel the way that you do, but I do think you're being particularly uncharitable given the entire body of work of years of posts. I would like it better if Andy were a bit less defensive and snarky when people call attention to the questionable language (the same way I feel when the Redskins name comes up; I think Andy is wrong but I do not think for a moment that he believes Native Americans to be inferior people) because retreating from even a potential slur is better than turning it into an argument about the legitimacy of someone else's feelings. Then again, I'm far from perfect on this front, so I have a lot of benefit of the doubt to give.
   1863. Greg K Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:13 PM (#4767424)
Also on the topic of cultural identifiers and acronyms, I've actually come across several people in my generation over the past few months who don't know the literal meaning of WASP - by intuition they get the first three right, but it doesn't occur to them that Protestant matters.* I'm not sure where they think the term came from...something to do with bees I guess.

Which is probably indicative of perceptions of elite culture. I think religion is becoming less and less important as an identifier, with Anglo-Saxon perhaps close behind.
   1864. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:13 PM (#4767425)
Primey.

Which rhymes with "hymie." Take your cockney hate speech elsewhere.
   1865. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:14 PM (#4767426)
Also, note to self: Never choose tshipman as my partner if I find myself involved in a game of Name That Jew.

The game is called "Guess Who's the Jew" and it stars Kurt Waldheim, Jr.


"Lies! LIES!"
   1866. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:15 PM (#4767430)
Yeah, apparently I'm really bad at it. I blame growing up in California.


Hey, when I was growing up I'm pretty sure the most Jewish person I know was my mother, who was Southern Baptist. (As alluded to previously, her father was Jewish, but he divorced her mother when mom was 2. What a good Jewish boy from the Philadelphia area was doing in eastern Oklahoma in the first place, I have no idea. He got himself out to Southern California forthwith & married a fellow Member of the Tribe, which is how I now have [half-?]cousins in Israel, not that I'll ever meet them.)
   1867. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:16 PM (#4767433)
Which rhymes with "hymie." Take your cockney hate speech elsewhere.


Another primey.

Uh, limey.

Whatever.
   1868. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:17 PM (#4767434)
You must be thinking of that guy around here---can't remember his name, but maybe you can think of it---who keeps calling Redskins fans "racists" for using the name of their favorite football team.

I just want to clarify on this point. I don't know whether Redskins fans are racists, but I do know that the team name is a racist name.


FWIW, C-bird, you were definitely not the person I was referring to with that comment.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Also, note to self: Never choose tshipman as my partner if I find myself involved in a game of Name That Jew.


The game is called "Guess Who's the Jew" and it stars Kurt Waldheim, Jr.

Good shot, Jason. And that should mark the appropriate closing of this particular sub-thread.
   1869. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:17 PM (#4767435)
I've actually come across several people in my generation over the past few months who don't know the literal meaning of WASP


Far worse, I think, is the fact that a couple of months ago my supervisor had to ask me how to spell it (though in this case the acronym was for Women Airforce Service Pilots).
   1870. CrosbyBird Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:20 PM (#4767439)
The word's connection to Jewish lawyers is not entirely out of left field. As soon as I heard the word shyster in this thread I thought of Will Smith's line in Enemy of the State:

<quote>Actually, I believe the term 'shyster' is reserved for attorneys of the Jewish persuasion. I believe the proper term for me is 'eggplant.'</quote>
   1871. JE (Jason) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:21 PM (#4767440)
I had a friend visiting Toronto a while ago come across the first Jews he had met (or at least knowingly, I'm sure he's met Jewish people before, just didn't realize it). Unfortunately it was a group of really annoying 15 year old kids who got kicked out of a Jays game for being drunk and disruptive.

So ... how did you knew they were Jewish, Greg K? Were they dancing the hora in the middle of a Jose Bautista plate appearance?
   1872. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:21 PM (#4767441)
FWIW, C-bird, you were definitely not the person I was referring to with that comment.

It's admirable to think the best of one's townsfolk, though no one's ever confused that natural human impulse with objectivity.
   1873. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:22 PM (#4767442)
Edit: Wait. Can I call someone a WASP?

are they one?
seriously WASP is an odd term, it's an acronym, White Anglo-Saxon Protestant, but not all White Anglo-Saxon Protestants are WASPs- a WASP is an White Anglo-Saxon Protestant of a certain social class, and when used is usually used to disparage them- but the targets don't seem to mind being called WASPs...
   1874. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:23 PM (#4767443)
So ... how did you knew they were Jewish, Greg K? Were they dancing the hora in the middle of a Jose Bautista plate appearance?


They were wearing Lawyers, Bankers, Hedge Fund Guys, Etc. Fan Club T-shirts, not to mention yarmulkes.

   1875. JE (Jason) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:25 PM (#4767446)
Side note: Richard Perle's wiki page makes him sound like a real scumbag.

I have interacted with Richard Perle a number of times and even arranged for him to speak at a policy conference in Istanbul eight or nine years ago. I found him to be both engaging and professional.
   1876. tshipman Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:26 PM (#4767447)
I have interacted with Richard Perle a number of times and even arranged for him to speak at a policy conference in Istanbul eight or nine years ago. I found him to be both engaging and professional.


You and Gaddafi both.
   1877. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:27 PM (#4767448)
Getting back to politics, with Lamar Alexander's primary win in Tennessee yesterday, all the incumbent Senate Republicans who sought election have been renominated, and despite the many predictions of intramural strife harming the GOP, they are all favored for re-election. It does look like one Democratic incumbent may go down in a messy contest divided along racial lines that may also oust the incumbent Democratic Governor.
   1878. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:28 PM (#4767449)
I have interacted with Richard Perle a number of times and even arranged for him to speak at a policy conference in Istanbul eight or nine years ago. I found him to be both engaging and professional.


So what you're saying is, tshipman is almost as anti-Semitic as Andy.

Assuming that's even possible, much less legal.
   1879. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:29 PM (#4767452)
They were wearing Lawyers, Bankers, Hedge Fund Guys, Etc. Fan Club T-shirts

I need to get me some of those
   1880. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:34 PM (#4767456)
Side note: Richard Perle's wiki page makes him sound like a real scumbag.


Side note, I'm not a fan of Perle, but his Wiki page has a serious neutrality issue... it comes off as a hatchet job
   1881. JE (Jason) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:36 PM (#4767457)
You and Gaddafi both.

Drink.

So what you're saying is, tshipman is almost as anti-Semitic as Andy.

Assuming that's even possible, much less legal.

Drink heavily!
   1882. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:37 PM (#4767460)
I don't think anyone would accuse me of being oblivious to antisemitism, but I don't remotely think Andy is anti-Semitic. Dumb, sure. But antisemittic? No. I was the one who called him out on his misuse of "Shylock," but that just falls under "dumb." (And stubborn, since he refused to admit he was wrong, but that was no different than his stance on copyright infringement.)

Other people have said questionable things from time to time, but that makes them ignorant or insensitive, not antisemites. . The only Primate that was clearly antisemittic was Retardo.
   1883. villageidiom Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:37 PM (#4767461)
So ... how did you knew they were Jewish, Greg K? Were they dancing the hora in the middle of a Jose Bautista plate appearance?
While being escorted out they accused the security guards of anti-Semitism.
   1884. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:38 PM (#4767462)
Honestly as hard as I have been on Israel I am surprised Andy and not me is getting tagged. Sorry dude, but I for one am pretty sure you are not a hater.

As an aside my most surprising discovery of someone being Jewish is my good friend from high school who I did not find out he was Jewish until years later. He is the only Russian/Chinese Jew I know or have heard of, so there is that I guess.

And I am really looking forward to seeing him for the first time in a couple years next week actually. He is coming to GenCon and rooming with me. I am so excited for GenCon.
   1885. Greg K Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:48 PM (#4767466)
So ... how did you knew they were Jewish, Greg K? Were they dancing the hora in the middle of a Jose Bautista plate appearance?

They were all wearing yarmulkes. And each had a flower in his ear. Not sure if that was related to their Judaism or just a fashion choice.
   1886. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:49 PM (#4767467)
I am so excited for GenCon.


Much, much worse than a confession of anti-Semitism.
   1887. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:50 PM (#4767468)
They were all wearing yarmulkes. And each had a flower in his ear. Not sure if that was related to their Judaism or just a fashion choice.


They weren't Jews, then -- they were Canadian hipsters. No doubt they were wearing bow ties & galoshes as well.
   1888. Greg K Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:52 PM (#4767469)
a WASP is an White Anglo-Saxon Protestant of a certain social class, and when used is usually used to disparage them- but the targets don't seem to mind being called WASPs...

I think mostly because it's easy to tell yourself that the disparaging term is rooted in envy, and usually isn't made in a threatening context. If the terms is accompanied with some kind of threat, or a call for drastic re-alignment in the social hierarchy, I think it would quickly take on a more sinister meaning for the target.
   1889. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:53 PM (#4767470)
Random anecdote...

Going to school at Binghamton University in the 1980s, a visiting lecturer one year was offended and complained to the school admin about graffiti he'd seen that said something like "JAPS GO HOME"

He was offended because he was Japanese...

The graffiti writer was most likely a local (whom we students from downstate derisively called townies), because the locals had a habit of derisively referring to female students (with big hair) from downstate (Downstate meaning NYC and adjacent counties- Long Island/Westchester) as JAPs... Most of the targets were Italian-American or even Irish American females rather than actually being Jewish American Princesses... in fact it was always unclear to me whether the townies had any clue that JAP was a very specific acronym, to them it seemingly just meant "snotty chick with big hair from NYC who won't give me the time of day"

   1890. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:56 PM (#4767471)
Following up on my post 1882, after catching up on this thread: I agree that if Sam believed half the things he said, he'd be one, but he doesn't, so he isn't.


As for the ignorance I referred to; Like the flabbergasting notion that neocon doesn't mean Jew.
   1891. Greg K Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:58 PM (#4767472)
Weird, I'd never heard of that one. So is JAP meaning Jewish American Princess a common acronym, or is it pretty exclusive to upstate New York?
   1892. tshipman Posted: August 08, 2014 at 05:59 PM (#4767473)
As for the ignorance I referred to; Like the flabbergasting notion that neocon doesn't mean Jew.


Again, Dick Cheney will be pleased to hear he's a member.
   1893. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 06:01 PM (#4767474)
So is JAP meaning Jewish American Princess a common acronym, or is it pretty exclusive to upstate New York?


I've been familiar with it for decades, but probably only through movies, sitcoms, novels & such.

Which are all controlled by Jews.
   1894. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 06:01 PM (#4767476)
Weird, I'd never heard of that one. So is JAP meaning Jewish American Princess a common acronym, or is it pretty exclusive to upstate New York?
The former, though I suppose it's more common in the NY area because, well, there are a lot more Jews here.
   1895. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 06:01 PM (#4767477)
Again, Dick Cheney will be pleased to hear he's a member.


That's Dick Cheneyberg to you, Gentile.
   1896. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 08, 2014 at 06:02 PM (#4767478)
. . . but it does strike me as a little embarrassing that people actually defend it when it's so easy and so harmless to change. Even if only 10% of Native Americans really dislike it, it's still cultural appropriation, which I think always has an aspect of racism built into the mix.

Not seeing that logic. If 90% of Native Americans don't have a problem, maybe the 10% should be ignored. Not too many things that you can get a 90% majority on in any group.
   1897. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 06:04 PM (#4767479)
Again, Dick Cheney will be pleased to hear he's a member.
Again, Cheney isn't a neocon.

Neocon doesn't mean "hawk."
   1898. tshipman Posted: August 08, 2014 at 06:04 PM (#4767481)
Weird, I'd never heard of that one. So is JAP meaning Jewish American Princess a common acronym, or is it pretty exclusive to upstate New York?
The former, though I suppose it's more common in the NY area because, well, there are a lot more Jews here.


I think it's regional, but a fairly wide region. Growing up on the west coast, I never heard it until high school.

That's Dick Cheneyberg to you, Gentile.


Correction noted.
   1899. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 06:04 PM (#4767482)
Since Hollywood & the publishing industry are controlled by Jews, is complaining about movies & books the equivalent of anti-Semitic dogwhistling?
   1900. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 08, 2014 at 06:06 PM (#4767484)
Again, Cheney isn't a neocon.

Neocon doesn't mean "hawk."


Says who? A bunch of Je-

Hmmm. Never mind.
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