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Friday, August 01, 2014

OT: Politics, August 2014: DNC criticizes Christie’s economic record with baseball video

As Gov. Chris Christie prepares to cap off his trip to New Hampshire tonight with a fundraiser at a minor-league baseball game, the Democratic National Committee has released a online video taking a swing at the Republican governor’s handling of New Jersey’s economy.

The clip is modeled after an old-time newsreel — the kind that would have been shown in movie houses when Babe Ruth ruled the baseball diamond in the 1920s.

It notes that under Christie — a possible candidate for the Republican nomination for president in 2016 — New Jersey has among the highest property taxes and slowest job growth in the U.S.

“On his economic record, Chris Christie strikes out,” the video’s narrator says.

Bitter Mouse Posted: August 01, 2014 at 09:10 AM | 6359 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: new jersey, politics, video

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   4201. greenback calls it soccer Posted: August 19, 2014 at 09:40 PM (#4774995)
Speaking of doctors, Twitter says a potential Ebola case has been found in the US outside a hospital. Damn, what a ##### summer.
   4202. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 19, 2014 at 09:49 PM (#4775006)
And there's no reason to wait to test the veracity of the claims that he had a fractured eye socket. They look highly dubious. We've been through this -- given the corruption of the PD, honest and intelligent citizens are going to have to analyze the evidence themselves to get the real story.


Lol. I guess Eric Holder can tell the feds to go home, then, since their presence there is pointless.
   4203. tshipman Posted: August 19, 2014 at 09:50 PM (#4775008)
Speaking of doctors, Twitter says a potential Ebola case has been found in the US outside a hospital. Damn, what a ##### summer.


Spoiler alert! This is probably nonsense.

I know nothing about this, but I'm pretty confident in saying that it's not Ebola.

***

To Ray, YC, snapper, et al:
Does the actions the Ferguson police have taken towards media move your priors at all about how likely police corruption is in this case?
   4204. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 19, 2014 at 09:52 PM (#4775009)
To Ray, YC, snapper, et al:
Does the actions the Ferguson police have taken towards media move your priors at all about how likely police corruption is in this case?


I'm pretty sure the Ferguson PD is incompetent/abusive/corrupt. I'm not at all sure what happened in the initial incident.

Wilson need not have committed murder for the Ferguson PD to act badly in the aftermath.
   4205. greenback calls it soccer Posted: August 19, 2014 at 09:56 PM (#4775017)
Spoiler alert! This is probably nonsense.

I know nothing about this, but I'm pretty confident in saying that it's not Ebola.

Sure, take Ebola's side on this. Shame on you.
   4206. tshipman Posted: August 19, 2014 at 09:59 PM (#4775020)
Sure, take Ebola's side on this. Shame on you.


The primary symptoms of ebola are fever, headache, joint pain, vomiting and diarrhea. It's also been in the news a ton. Chances are it's something else, like Malaria or any one of a number of diseases that are often mistaken for Ebola.
   4207. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 19, 2014 at 10:06 PM (#4775029)
Does the actions the Ferguson police have taken towards media move your priors at all about how likely police corruption is in this case?

Hasn't it been the county police, and then the state police, and now the National Guard calling the shots? In any event, the locals may well be out of their depth in handling something of this magnitude.
   4208. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 19, 2014 at 10:33 PM (#4775051)
Still too early for the results from that important Alaska Republican Senate Primary, but the GOP did pick up an important State Senate seat in a Virginia special election, cementing their control of the chamber by a 21-18 margin (with another special election pending in a strongly Democratic seat).
   4209. BrianBrianson Posted: August 20, 2014 at 04:47 AM (#4775135)
I would suggest the door shove/bounce is probably a red herring anyhow. If Brown was close enough to the door to be able to shove it back, it might've bounced, he might've shoved it purposely, he might've shoved it instinctively (as one is prone to do when objects are coming at them - ####, I tried to shove a pickup truck that hit me rolling through a stop sign; instinct; not a rational reaction). We're definitely never, ever going to know it, and all those actions would have looked more or less the same to witnesses.

Anyways, a grand jury is apparently being convened to charge Wilson/not charge Wilson with an unspecified charge. Papers seem to think it'll be manslaughter, but no one seems to know for sure.
   4210. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: August 20, 2014 at 06:31 AM (#4775136)
I don't know; I guess we'll have to... wait to learn whether he had a fractured eye socket. It's not like that's a fact we won't learn about one way or the other in time.

Would you let one of your buddies take a swing at you, so you can present an injury later, to get you out of a potential murder conviction? I know I would.
   4211. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 06:53 AM (#4775137)
You would think at some point someone who was at least a little intelligent at some level of government would tell cops to stop arresting journalists. I can't believe that they're still doing it.
   4212. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 20, 2014 at 07:07 AM (#4775138)
Lol. I guess Eric Holder can tell the feds to go home, then, since their presence there is pointless.

Do the Feds have the authority to bring murder or other criminal homicide charges?
   4213. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 07:22 AM (#4775140)
(4211) Agree. You'd think they'd at least figure out it was terrible PR.
   4214. BrianBrianson Posted: August 20, 2014 at 07:24 AM (#4775141)
@4211 - Are you not familiar with the tale of the frog and the scorpion?
   4215. formerly dp Posted: August 20, 2014 at 07:28 AM (#4775142)
Not that it changes much, but ISIS beheaded an American journalist, and is threatening to do the same to another.
   4216. greenback calls it soccer Posted: August 20, 2014 at 07:40 AM (#4775144)
The decline of civilization from the 1960s in one simple chart.
   4217. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 20, 2014 at 08:23 AM (#4775157)
   4218. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 08:30 AM (#4775162)
Even Redstate isn't buying some of the pro-Wilson propaganda.
   4219. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 20, 2014 at 08:33 AM (#4775163)
There's no way the guy had a blowout eye socket fracture immediately post-incident.
   4220. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 20, 2014 at 08:41 AM (#4775170)
Do the Feds have the authority to bring murder or other criminal homicide charges?

The Feds could file Federal Civil Rights charges, which could be more difficult to prove since they have to prove intent, among other things.
   4221. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 20, 2014 at 08:42 AM (#4775172)
The Feds could file Federal Civil Rights charges, which could be more difficult to prove since they have to prove intent, among other things.

It was a rhetorical question, in response to the nonsensical proffer of Holder's presence.
   4222. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 20, 2014 at 08:48 AM (#4775174)
There's no way the guy had a blowout eye socket fracture immediately post-incident.

Why continue to post opinion as if it were fact? The material I previously linked to listed a punch as one of the frequent causes of orbital bone fractures and warned against leaving it untreated. Sounds like there are some such injuries that are not immediately or totally incapacitating.
   4223. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 20, 2014 at 08:50 AM (#4775178)
Why continue to post opinion as if it were fact?

Because it's the only reasonable conclusion from the immediate post-incident video.

Moreover, where are the pictures of him with a broken face, where is the surgeon updating us on the surgery, where are the Facebook pages and tweets wishing him a quick recovery from surgery?

Instead, all we have is furtive leaks by nobodies to nobody media outlets. Extremely telling.
   4224. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 08:57 AM (#4775184)
Because it's the only reasonable conclusion from the immediate post-incident video.

Moreover, where are the pictures of him with a broken face, where is the surgeon updating us on the surgery, where are the Facebook pages and tweets wishing him a quick recovery from surgery?


What's the upside of concluding that now? What's the downside of waiting for more evidence?

   4225. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 20, 2014 at 08:59 AM (#4775185)
The cop may not be guilty. The police involved may not be clueless and racist incompetents trying their best to cover everything up. But that is sure how they are all acting and nothing in the known evidence points away from that conclusion.
   4226. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:08 AM (#4775188)
What's the upside of concluding that now?


Being rational about the information, the sources and the motives for it's dispersal.

What's the downside of waiting for more evidence?


What other "evidence" do you suppose they're going to provide for this little nugget? A doctor from the force that says "no, seriously, you can't see it, but he totally has a fractured eye?"

Is it not somewhat convenient that Mr. Heroic Peace Officer seems to have a facial injury that doesn't seem to exist outside of the FPD's files of "things that makes this totally a righteous kill?" How anyone on earth could take these drips and drops of obvious propaganda from the shooter seriously is beyond me. A bunch of folks who can't trust Lois Lerner to tell the truth about IRS processes suddenly can't get enough of the official story line of the state.
   4227. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:08 AM (#4775189)
The cop may not be guilty. The police involved may not be clueless and racist incompetents trying their best to cover everything up. But that is sure how they are all acting and nothing in the known evidence points away from that conclusion.

Right. We don't have all the evidence, and we should keep an open mind, but there's nothing wrong with drawing prelim. conclusions based on the information we do have. This isn't a court or a newspaper. And everything I've seen suggests that the cop murdered him.
   4228. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:10 AM (#4775190)
. . . nothing in the known evidence points away from that conclusion.

How much of the evidence is known? Have the authorities ever said they'd release it all piecemeal as it comes in? Media reports aren't exactly evidence, either.
   4229. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:16 AM (#4775194)
How much of the evidence is known? Have the authorities ever said they'd release it all piecemeal as it comes in? Media reports aren't exactly evidence, either.


You know their actions look bad when their defenders stop spinning up alternate versions and retreat back to pretending this is a court of law, and hey no one here has ever argued from evidence like media reports, hearsay, speculation or random sample polls.
   4230. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:32 AM (#4775203)
How much of the evidence is known? Have the authorities ever said they'd release it all piecemeal as it comes in?
Omly the parts favorable to the cops.
   4231. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:36 AM (#4775207)
Omly the parts favorable to the cops.


Exactly. The entire point here is that the folks who would normally be flooding the media with the most damning nuggets of evidence against a shooter - the cops and the DA's office - are doing the exact opposite. Because the shooter is a cop.
   4232. GregD Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:42 AM (#4775211)
There's no reliable evidence that the officer has an eye socket fracture right?

If that's the case, then I agree that people should stop speculating about alternative explanations for the fracture and also that people should stop speculating on the hypothetical fracture as explaining anything about the event.

We are back to: officer shot multiple times (I haven't seen a number given for number of shots fired though that would be commonly released immediately afterward by lots of police departments), his bullets hit unarmed man 6 times. No gunpowder residue on man's body.
   4233. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:44 AM (#4775214)
   4234. GordonShumway Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:44 AM (#4775215)
Let's assume all the disputed facts in favor of the police.

Brown was walking down the middle of the street with his friend. Wilson, out of concern for young Brown, politely asked him to step away from the middle of the street.

Brown, in an instant beserk rage, confronted Wilson, who was sitting in his police car, by slamming an ajar door, reaching through the car window, physically accosting Wilson, and reaching for Wilson's gun. Wilson briefly struggled with Brown.

Brown then stepped away from the car, and ran approximately 30-40 feet away. Wilson stepped out of the car and drew his weapon. Brown then stopped running, turned 180 degrees, then started running towards the police officer in a menacing manner.

Wilson then shot Brown 6 times as per his training.

---

Even assuming all the above facts in favor of Wilson, I can't see why Wilson couldn't have drawn a taser or stun gun instead while exiting out of the car. Granted, I'm sure emotions were running hot and the adrenaline was pumping. However, cops should be trained to keep their heads cool in such a situation.

I'd have no problem with Wilson drawing a gun and shooting Brown if the facts were changed so that:

1.) There was a reasonable suspicion that Brown had a firearm.
2.) There was a reasonable suspicion that Brown was going to continue running away from Wilson, out of range of the Taser, and commit great harm to someone else.
3.) Brown never ran off 30-40 feet away, but was whaling away at Wilson, sitting inside the police car.

Or in many other alternative scenarios.

But even in the above scenario which is most favorable to Wilson, he had time to draw a taser or stun gun instead of drawing a firearm, and there was no reasonable justification in these facts why a firearm would be preferable to a taser or stun gun.

The second death that happened yesterday has not gotten anywhere near as much attention as Brown's killing, but that death seems even more unjustified, as the cops had time to draw a taser instead of a gun and just disable, rather than kill the victim.
---

Of course, according to the facts above, Wilson has broken no law nor should be criminally punished. But it's quite troubling that the laws, of both Missouri and pretty much every other state, places such a low burden on both cops and citizens in killing, rather than disabling people in situations such as these.
   4235. zonk Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:45 AM (#4775218)
Even Redstate isn't buying some of the pro-Wilson propaganda.


I have to give credit where credit is due --

I think Erik son of Erik has written some pretty worthy stuff on Ferguson.... This one is pretty good:

First, as someone on twitter noted, if we say most conservatives are not racist despite what the left would have us believe, we should be willing to believe that not all of the black community is prone to riot when these terrible things happen.

Second, and even more importantly, conservatives who lament the abuses of a big federal government should not so easily give a pass to state and local government. In fact, if a government is big enough to give us everything, it is big enough to take it all away and that government may not be Washington, but your state or local community. Many liberals are today upset at the police in Ferguson, MO, but give a complete pass to the IRS’s political persecutions. Conservatives upset at the IRS, EPA, DOJ, etc. should not give a blanket pass to state and local authorities. Frankly, we should also not give a pass to Republican administrations on these issues


I also thought this one -- Must we Have a Dead White Kid? -- was pretty good....

Obviously, I don't think there's a whole lot we'd ever agree upon - but detente always gives me the warm and fuzzies...
   4236. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:50 AM (#4775222)
I'll give Erickson some credit for being on the right side of the big questions here. Of course, even when he is right, he manages to be wrong (i.e. from the "Must We Have A Dead White Kid?" piece he kicks things off by blaming first "the media," "black activists" and "liberal activists." As if Jesse Jackson snuck into Darren Wilson's skull and made him shoot a guy.
   4237. Mefisto Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:00 AM (#4775229)
The Feds could file Federal Civil Rights charges, which could be more difficult to prove since they have to prove intent, among other things.


You're right that proof of civil rights charges would be more difficult, but intent has to be proved in all crimes. What makes the civil rights charges difficult is that the requirement is to prove a specific intent, rather than the general intent for murder or manslaughter.
   4238. GregD Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:11 AM (#4775236)
I also give Erikson credit. Thanks for posting that David.

Narrowly, Erikson does get Posse Comitatus wrong. The actual act didn't end all use of the military to enforce laws domestically. It clarified that only uses justified by existing statutes or the Constitution were legal and made it a misdemeanor to violate the act. The common interpretation at the time was that it eliminated the practice of marshals and commissioners calling out and, at times, taking charge of the military on their own. Instead, the interpretation generally was that requests had to go through Washington. (This was true before the 1850s, too, generally, but the expansion of the military's role by pro-slavery congressmen in the Fugitive Slave Act led to an Attorney General's opinion that marshals and commissioners could call out force on their own, and that was turned toward civil rights violations when the Republicans gained power.) But the military had all kinds of interventions after Posse Comtiatus--150 between 1878 and 1945 if I remember. Most of them were in response to either a request from the state government or a federal court ruling. When Eisenhower used the 101st in Little Rock, he based it on a mix of Reconstruction era statutes and also early republic laws that he said gave him the power to use the military. Recently--on this I would defer to experts in the "room"--the military argued for a more -restrictive view of Posse Comitatus out of concern about being brought in to the War on Drugs in the 70s and 80s. But that view is controversial, and plenty of lawyers think Posse Comitatus has no restraining force on the president responding either to a federal judge or a state government. Or--more controversially--to an emergency that precludes a request from one of them.

The only relevance is that Erikson connect the militarization of the police force to the use of the Army, but in some ways the causality may be different. The Army supports giving stuff to police as a way of keeping the Army out of domestic disputes.
   4239. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:14 AM (#4775240)
What's the upside of concluding that now?

Because the propaganda efforts are having real-time impacts on the ground and hence the truth or falsity of those efforts is a matter of real-time public concern.
   4240. GordonShumway Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:21 AM (#4775246)
I also thought this one -- Must we Have a Dead White Kid? -- was pretty good....


There's the problem though - there are plenty of dead white kids by cops.

http://www.politico.com/magazine/story/2014/08/what-i-did-after-police-killed-my-son-110038.html#.U_Spm_ldXkU

That article also has an interesting bit about how a bipartisan effort in the Wisconsin state legislature, as well as the approval of Gov. Scott Walker, resulted in new laws where any death by police in Wisconsin needs to be reviewed by an independent agency.

Granted, black kids get killed in much greater proportions than kids of other races. Nonetheless, I wish the media and the public would pivot away from the racial issues when discussing police brutality and focus on it as a problem that can victimize people of any race, including blond-haired, blue-eyed affluent white kids. By reframing the problem in non-racial terms, hopefully other states can also enact greater reforms that hold cops to a higher standard of accountability.

On a different note, I'm starting to warm up to Gov. Walker. If he won the GOP POTUS nomination in 2016, which I think he has next to no chance of winning, I would strongly consider voting for him instead of HRC (ugh).
   4241. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:22 AM (#4775247)
But even in the above scenario which is most favorable to Wilson, he had time to draw a taser or stun gun instead of drawing a firearm, and there was no reasonable justification in these facts why a firearm would be preferable to a taser or stun gun.

The second death that happened yesterday has not gotten anywhere near as much attention as Brown's killing, but that death seems even more unjustified, as the cops had time to draw a taser instead of a gun and just disable, rather than kill the victim.


Does he even have a taser or stun gun?

You're right that proof of civil rights charges would be more difficult,


I'm more interested in the Feds investigating whether the Ferguson and St Louis County Police have been violating the 1st amendment rights of the people in Ferguson (including reporters etc)
   4242. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:24 AM (#4775249)
The only relevance is that Erikson connect the militarization of the police force to the use of the Army, but in some ways the causality may be different. The Army supports giving stuff to police as a way of keeping the Army out of domestic disputes.


Well, the Army supports giving stuff to the police as a way of clearing stock and then needing to order more stuff, thus ensuring that a certain set of generals in and around the Pentagon are kept on K Street's wine and dine list indefinitely. Whores don't buy themselves.
   4243. GordonShumway Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:25 AM (#4775253)
Does he even have a taser or stun gun?


Well, my point is that he should.
   4244. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:32 AM (#4775255)
On a different note, I'm starting to warm up to Gov. Walker. If he won the GOP POTUS nomination in 2016, which I think he has next to no chance of winning, I would strongly consider voting for him instead of HRC (ugh).


The Hill's list of 65 possible candidates for president in 2016.

Editorial note: The Hill apparently limits its 65 possible candidates to the two major parties.
   4245. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:32 AM (#4775256)
Well, my point is that he should.


Which I agree with, I also think he should have a dash cam in his car at the very LEAST

but if he doesn't have a taser/stun gun, then saying that he should have had one isn't all that responsive to the question of what should he do when being charged by a berserk 300 pounder (to use the most favorable to Wilson scenario)

There's the problem though - there are plenty of dead white kids by cops.


yes and the Lacrosse team/stripper incident isn't the country's only instance of prosecutorial abuse either
   4246. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:38 AM (#4775260)
But even in the above scenario which is most favorable to Wilson, he had time to draw a taser or stun gun instead of drawing a firearm, and there was no reasonable justification in these facts why a firearm would be preferable to a taser or stun gun.


I'm not sure the law requires that when getting bum-rushed by a 6'5, 290 man you stand there and maybe take a beating for a while before using lethal force.
   4247. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:38 AM (#4775261)
Do the cop cars have continual audio? I know they've got that dash cam, but is it always on?
   4248. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:41 AM (#4775264)
Do the cop cars have continual audio? I know they've got that dash cam, but is it always on?


I assure you, Ray. If there existed audio or dashcam footage to exonerate Wilson, we would be awash in it by now. Given Ferguson's apparent SOP within the community, I doubt you'll see many functioning dashcams on their units.
   4249. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:51 AM (#4775273)
Do the cop cars have continual audio? I know they've got that dash cam, but is it always on?

I thought the dash cams were generally triggered by the lights/siren being used.
   4250. Ron J2 Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:52 AM (#4775276)
#4210 Somebody else was thinking back to Dirty Harry I see.
   4251. GordonShumway Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:53 AM (#4775277)
Do the cop cars have continual audio? I know they've got that dash cam, but is it always on?

Dashcams? Heh, they're not even putting on their badges.

http://www.vox.com/2014/8/19/6043483/ferguson-police-impunity
   4252. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:00 AM (#4775280)
I'm not sure the law requires that when getting bum-rushed by a 6'5, 290 man you stand there and maybe take a beating for a while before using lethal force.

Still rooting, huh?
   4253. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:11 AM (#4775291)
Because the propaganda efforts are having real-time impacts on the ground and hence the truth or falsity of those efforts is a matter of real-time public concern.

But, at this point, wouldn't the situation be improved if people were less certain the cop did something wrong?
   4254. tshipman Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:14 AM (#4775294)
Hasn't it been the county police, and then the state police, and now the National Guard calling the shots? In any event, the locals may well be out of their depth in handling something of this magnitude.


This is actually extremely unclear. People are getting arrested, but police aren't wearing badges. The MO highway patrol guy gives quotes indicating that he's not in full command of the situation. No one seems to know who exactly is in charge.

It should be clear to all parties that this is a very bad situation.

But, at this point, wouldn't the situation be improved if people were less certain the cop did something wrong?


Are you touched, snapper? When you see an obvious, clumsy cover-up by the police, your reaction is not calm acceptance that perhaps not all the facts are in, your reaction is rage. And that is an appropriate response!
   4255. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:20 AM (#4775299)
It should be clear to all parties that this is a very bad situation.


Yes; looting and rioting is never justified, nor are comments from governors and attorney generals catering to the whims of angry mobs. The governor is already demanding prosecution; and he called release of the robbery video a "smear."
   4256. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:21 AM (#4775301)
But, at this point, wouldn't the situation be improved if people were less certain the cop did something wrong?


Dude, if you think I'm going to be difficult to convince the cop didn't do "something wrong," you should double or triple that for folks in Ferguson proper.
   4257. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:22 AM (#4775304)
Are you touched, snapper? When you see an obvious, clumsy cover-up by the police, your reaction is not calm acceptance that perhaps not all the facts are in, your reaction is rage. And that is an appropriate response!

How is rage helping the situation? The situation has been identified. The State and Feds are involved. It will be investigated.

At this point more rage will just lead to more destruction. and possibly deaths.

Even if Wilson was completely unjustified, and the Ferguson PD is as corrupt and abusive as we all think it probably is, and are engaged in a 100% explicit cover up, that is no reason to want the town of Ferguson to burn.
   4258. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:23 AM (#4775306)
Dude, if you think I'm going to be difficult to convince the cop didn't do "something wrong," you should double or triple that for folks in Ferguson proper.

I'm not saying you should be easy to convince, or that I believe it's true.

I'm just saying that a little more doubt, and a lot less rage, would improve the situation on the ground immeasurably.

There is literally no upside to the people of Ferguson from riots and looting.
   4259. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:25 AM (#4775307)
It should be clear to all parties that this is a very bad situation.


Given what we've seen of the local Ferguson/STL County police, and given the apparent history they have of playing bad cop/I'm going to kill you cop in the community, would it be shocking if they are blatantly ignoring the orders to hand things over to other less implicated forces? Everything we've seen so far indicates a police force so corrupt that allowing anyone in to carry out the rest of this debacle will inevitably lead to deeper corruption and more charges. The cover up, in that regard, has almost certainly moved beyond "get our buddy out of a murder rap" and towards "shut down anyone who might come in and take a look at what we've been doing."
   4260. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:30 AM (#4775311)
There is literally no upside to the people of Ferguson from riots and looting.

That's their decision to make. Perhaps they're willing to sacrifice some property damage to get a non-fascist police force.
   4261. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:31 AM (#4775312)
Even if Wilson was completely unjustified, and the Ferguson PD is as corrupt and abusive as we all think it probably is, and are engaged in a 100% explicit cover up, that is no reason to want the town of Ferguson to burn.


This goes back to a couple of points made earlier. First, people don't act rationally. People don't put blocks of logic together like lego sets. So you sitting back on the internet lecturing about how irrational they're being isn't really going to make anything happen. You wouldn't behave rationally if your wife were killed. The monkey isn't wired the way you think it is.

Second, your assumption that "The situation has been identified. The State and Feds are involved. It will be investigated." belies, again, your own privilege as a middle-class white guy. It assumes a position where you trust Cops B and Cops C because you believe cops are generally good and out for your best interest. That is not a point of view likely shared by a majority of the folks in Ferguson.

When the lid blows off of a pressure cooker, the results are rarely controlled or controllable.
   4262. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:31 AM (#4775314)
Are you touched, snapper? When you see an obvious, clumsy cover-up by the police, your reaction is not calm acceptance that perhaps not all the facts are in, your reaction is rage. And that is an appropriate response!


As I've said, I find all protests in present day America to be silly, whiney, and a product of the victimhoodization of the culture.

The undercurrent of all modern day "protesting," no matter what the social issue (racism, gay marriage, whatever) is "I'm unhappy with my life, and you're to blame."
   4263. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:33 AM (#4775316)
I'm just saying that a little more doubt, and a lot less rage, would improve the situation on the ground immeasurably.


Yeah, I know what you're saying. And I'm saying that asking Hulk to calm down never works. You can talk to Dr. Banner once he returns to us. But Hulk smash. It's what rage monsters do.
   4264. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:33 AM (#4775317)
That's their decision to make. Perhaps they're willing to sacrifice some property damage to get a non-fascist police force.


Sure they're willing to sacrifice some property damage. Not their own property, of course.
   4265. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:33 AM (#4775318)
The undercurrent of all modern day "protesting," no matter what the social issue (racism, gay marriage, whatever) is "I'm unhappy with my life, and you're to blame."


Yes, Ray. I'm sure Micheal Brown shot himself in the head. For ####'s sake.
   4266. formerly dp Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:33 AM (#4775319)
The governor is already demanding prosecution; and he called release of the robbery video a "smear."
I don't get how you're still trying to defend the release of the video as anything but an attempt to paint the victim as someone who had it coming. He called it a "smear" because that was precisely the intended result.
   4267. formerly dp Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:36 AM (#4775323)
As I've said, I find all protests in present day America to be silly, whiney, and a product of the victimhoodization of the culture.
Bootlicker's gonna bootlick...
The undercurrent of all modern day "protesting," no matter what the social issue (racism, gay marriage, whatever) is "I'm unhappy with my life, and you're to blame."
Ray, stop being such a ####### idiot. Without the protests against gay marriage, there would never have been any forward progress on the issue. I know life's easy when you're a wealthy straight white guy, but have the good sense to realize that not everyone has it quite so good.
   4268. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:36 AM (#4775324)
That's their decision to make. Perhaps they're willing to sacrifice some property damage to get a non-fascist police force.

No, it's not.

They're not taking a vote. The rioters/looter aren't consulting the people whose property is destroyed, or who can't go to work or school.

But, let's go down your logic path. Let's say Ferguson today is like LA in the 1960's, with a blatantly racist, abusive police force. Would they be better off burning down a big swathe of the city, and becoming like Detroit; a 100% black-run dystopian nightmare of a city?

There were a lot more black people moving to LA in the 60's than there are black people moving to Detroit today.
   4269. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:37 AM (#4775325)
I don't get how you're still trying to defend the release of the video as anything but an attempt to paint the victim as someone who had it coming. He called it a "smear" because that was precisely the intended result..


The robbery video was a fact, and was relevant, as shown. A "smear" would be if they faked the robbery video.
   4270. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:38 AM (#4775327)
Yeah, I know what you're saying. And I'm saying that asking Hulk to calm down never works. You can talk to Dr. Banner once he returns to us. But Hulk smash. It's what rage monsters do.

Well, then your just saying the cops on the scene are right; repression is the only way to restore order.

I can't believe you're arguing that rioters should be allowed to run amok b/c the "rage monster" won't be satisfied until a big part of the city is destroyed?

Didn't we already see the results of a hands-off approach to rioters in LA 20 years ago? 50+ people dead, 2000 injured, entire neighborhoods gutted.

However effed up the police response in Ferguson (and it is pretty damned bad) it's better than what the LAPD did in running away.
   4271. formerly dp Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:40 AM (#4775331)
The robbery video was a fact, and was relevant, as shown. A "smear" would be if they faked the robbery video.
The robbery video was released as an attempt to justify the shooting of an unarmed person by a cop. You know this, but are somehow pretending that "facts" are simply neutral things divorced from context. The video was released as an attempt to discredit the victim and justify the cop's actions. Are you denying this?
   4272. JE (Jason) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:43 AM (#4775334)
Sorry for the interruption but, lest anyone think otherwise, ISIS/AQ beheadings bear little resemblance to those from feudal Japan, let alone Westeros:
The executioner then put his right hand across Foley’s mouth and chin, pulled the prisoner’s head back, and with his left hand sawed his head off using a 6-to-8-inch knife.

The gruesome slaying was reminiscent of the 2002 beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl by Pakistani terrorists linked to Al Qaeda.
   4273. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:44 AM (#4775335)
The video was released as an attempt to discredit the victim and justify the cop's actions. Are you denying this?


I don't see how anyone can claim the video wasn't relevant in considering the situation under discussion.
   4274. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:45 AM (#4775336)
That's their decision to make. Perhaps they're willing to sacrifice some property damage to get a non-fascist police force.

The only problem with that is that (a) it's not their own property they're sacrificing; and (b) the people making that "decision" have mostly been from outside the Ferguson community. This latter point has been repeatedly stressed by black residents of Ferguson, as reported by black news reporters and confirmed by the black State Senator from the Ferguson district.

Obviously I'm not in the slightest way trying to defend the Ferguson police force, which seems to act more suspiciously with every passing day. But that's a completely distinct issue.
   4275. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:46 AM (#4775337)
Sorry for the interruption but, lest anyone think otherwise, ISIS/AQ beheadings bear little resemblance to those from feudal Japan, let alone Westeros:
The executioner then put his right hand across Foley’s mouth and chin, pulled the prisoner’s head back, and with his left hand sawed his head off using a 6-to-8-inch knife.

The gruesome slaying was reminiscent of the 2002 beheading of Wall Street Journal reporter Daniel Pearl by Pakistani terrorists linked to Al Qaeda.


I wonder if that poster will stop ignoring me now, for saying that ISIS needs to be hunted down and killed?
   4276. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:46 AM (#4775338)
The video depicts a petty and marginal crime, was released to smear the victim, and obviously inflamed the community. We're left only with the question of whether inflaming the community was actually intended by the people who released the video.
   4277. BrianBrianson Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:46 AM (#4775339)

I don't see how anyone can claim the video wasn't relevant in considering the situation under discussion.


Not everyone believes summary execution is an appropriate response to theft of cigars.
   4278. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:48 AM (#4775341)
The only problem with that is that (a) it's not their own property they're sacrificing; and (b) the people making that "decision" have mostly been from outside the Ferguson community. This latter point has been repeatedly stressed by black residents of Ferguson, as reported by black news reporters and confirmed by the black State Senator from the Ferguson district.

Obviously I'm not in the slightest way trying to defend the Ferguson police force, which seems to act more suspiciously with every passing day. But that's a completely distinct issue.


Concur. And BTW, that PBS video you linked was very good. Everyone should go back and watch it.
   4279. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:49 AM (#4775343)
The robbery video was released as an attempt to justify the shooting of an unarmed person by a cop. You know this,


No I do not.

I object to your usage of "justify" there. The video is part of the story, not a "justification." Nobody on this planet believes that it would be justified to walk up to Brown and shoot him because he had robbed a store ten minutes earlier.

Also, people keep saying "unarmed," but that is only part of the analysis; it's not dispositive. One may well be justified in shooting someone who is unarmed. (Think of domestic violence situations where a woman is trying to protect herself from a batterer.)

but are somehow pretending that "facts" are simply neutral things divorced from context. The video was released as an attempt to discredit the victim and justify the cop's actions. Are you denying this?


The video shows that Brown assaulted a store owner who he was robbing, and thus in my view makes it more believable that he would assault a cop who approached him ten minutes later. If that is a "discrediting," so be it, but if so he "discredited" himself. But again, it wouldn't "justify" the cop's actions by itself; it is part of the story that we're trying to piece together.

You know this, but are somehow pretending that 'facts' are simply neutral things divorced from context. You're objecting to the release of the video because it discredits the victim. We were told he was a "gentle giant," and that is belied by the video.
   4280. formerly dp Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:50 AM (#4775346)
From reports I've read, a bulk of the violence is being instigated by a small portion of protesters. This isn't particularly uncommon-- at every protest I've been to, there's always some radical group who thinks that anything short of fighting the cops is selling out the cause, and they try to convince the crowd to feel similarly. It's really weak, IMO, especially because they know that provoking the police will get people who have no interest in violent confrontation injured, and some bodies are more fragile than others. Worst case I saw of this was at the NYC RNC, where a young woman from an anarchist group was trying to get the crowd to throw bricks at the cops, and an older woman with some mobility issues near the front lines was pleading with people not to. The crowd turned against the anarchist pretty quickly, and it's my understanding that this has started to happen in Ferguson as well.
   4281. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:51 AM (#4775347)
The only problem with that is that (a) it's not their own property they're sacrificing; and (b) the people making that "decision" have mostly been from outside the Ferguson community. This latter point has been repeatedly stressed by black residents of Ferguson, as reported by black news reporters and confirmed by the black State Senator from the Ferguson district.

Obviously I'm not in the slightest way trying to defend the Ferguson police force, which seems to act more suspiciously with every passing day. But that's a completely distinct issue.


I'm not quite sure what people expect a community under fascist (and I don't use that word lightly) rule, wherein a citizen was gunned down without apparent justification, to do. The elements for justifiable civil unrest are clearly in place.

Nor are the protestors in fact damaging that much property -- and such marginal damage is clearly ancillary to the justifiable portion of the civil unrest.
   4282. JE (Jason) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:51 AM (#4775348)
I wonder if that poster will stop ignoring me now, for saying that ISIS needs to be hunted down and killed?

Even more scary is that the guy who sawed off Foley's head is probably a British citizen.
   4283. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:52 AM (#4775349)
I don't see how anyone can claim the video wasn't relevant in considering the situation under discussion.

Not everyone believes summary execution is an appropriate response to theft of cigars.


Not anyone believes that. But keep arguing against a man of straw.
   4284. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:52 AM (#4775350)
The video is part of the story, not a "justification."

There's no reason to believe the video is in any way "part of the story." The story is the apparently unjustified homicide, and fascism having somehow taken hold and power over an American community.

It's part of the pro-authoritarian narrative, naturally -- but that's a different matter.
   4285. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:53 AM (#4775352)
Even more scary is that the guy who sawed off Foley's head is probably a British citizen.

Jason, do you have any insight on how all these Europeans are getting through to join ISIS? Is Turkey allowing them to cross the border? I assume there are no commercial flights to ISIS controlled territory :-)

Yes, it is scary that westernized Muslims seem to be as susceptible, or even more susceptible, to radicalization as traditional Muslims. It bodes ill for a "Reformation" of Islam through contact with the West.
   4286. tshipman Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:56 AM (#4775356)
As I've said, I find all protests in present day America to be silly, whiney, and a product of the victimhoodization of the culture.

The undercurrent of all modern day "protesting," no matter what the social issue (racism, gay marriage, whatever) is "I'm unhappy with my life, and you're to blame."


Ray gives away the game here. This is why he argues for the police. This is why he's so sure that Brown must have deserved it.

Because the alternative, that a young black man could be gunned down for the crime of jaywalking undermines his world view. He really believes that no one has any cause for complaint. If anything, he does! After all, straight white men are the real victims in Ray's world.

To admit that Brown was killed unjustly would be to admit that the protests would be legitimate. It would mean admitting that straight white men aren't really the persecuted minority that Ray seems to feel he is. It would mean that there still is racism in this country.

This is why Ray licks the boots of the corrupt police force in Ferguson.
   4287. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:56 AM (#4775358)
Well, then your just saying the cops on the scene are right; repression is the only way to restore order.


No, Snapper. You keep saying that, because you have an inner fascist who values his preferred order uber alles, but I most definitely am not saying that. Repression never puts Hulk back in the box. Read more comics.
   4288. formerly dp Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:57 AM (#4775359)
I object to your usage of "justify" there. The video is part of the story, not a "justification." Nobody on this planet believes that it would be justified to walk up to Brown and shoot him because he had robbed a store ten minutes earlier.
The Ferguson police apparently do.

The video shows that Brown assaulted a store owner who he was robbing, and thus in my view makes it more believable that he would assault a cop who approached him ten minutes later. If that is a "discrediting," so be it, but if so he "discredited" himself. But again, it wouldn't "justify" the cop's actions by itself; it is part of the story that we're trying to piece together.
They've been very selective with releasing facts related to the case-- if they'd been dumping everything in the public's lap from the start of the incident, I'd read the release of the video a bit more charitably. But there's absolutely no reason to given the Ferguson PD the benefit of the doubt at this point-- they're in full-on bunker mode, as indicated by the timing of the release of the video, and their refusal to engage with the victim's family about the specifics of the shooting. They are more interested in crafting a narrative that protects their own than in actually investigating the circumstances of the shooting. Have you seen anything that suggests otherwise?
You know this, but are somehow pretending that 'facts' are simply neutral things divorced from context. You're objecting to the release of the video because it discredits the victim. We were told he was a "gentle giant," and that is belied by the video.
So what you're saying is that the video was released in an attempt to paint a different picture of the victim, one that casts him in a negative light?
   4289. GregD Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:58 AM (#4775361)
Vox on role of ferguson community leaders in keeping down violence and looting. They have set up lines in front of stores and blockaded people to keep them from throwing things at police. The great lost opportunity was in the police department deliberately marginalizing these people on the first days. That's what gave the time and space for the black bloc type people to arrive. Dealing with them is truly difficult but doesn't have much to do with the people of ferguson as far as I can see. The people of ferguson have been more successful at protecting property than the police
   4290. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:00 PM (#4775364)
No, Snapper. You keep saying that, because you have an inner fascist who values his preferred order uber alles, but I most definitely am not saying that. Repression never puts Hulk back in the box. Read more comics.

So, do you have any practical suggestions besides chanting "Burn, baby, burn!"?

Responsible adults know order has to be maintained for society to function. Under current conditions, the city of Ferguson will die. Schools can't open, businesses can't survive. Everyone who can is going to abandon the city, if some way of restoring order (consistent, and along with needed police reform) isn't found.
   4291. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:00 PM (#4775365)
Is it clear that the guy in the video is actually Brown? I thought their clothing was different.
   4292. Dan The Mediocre Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:01 PM (#4775367)
If anything, he does! After all, straight white men are the real victims in Ray's world.


You forgot to add "that make more than $200,000 per year".
   4293. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:01 PM (#4775368)
Ray gives away the game here. This is why he argues for the police. This is why he's so sure that Brown must have deserved it.


Actually, you give away the game, by lying about me and what I've said.
   4294. JE (Jason) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:02 PM (#4775370)
Jason, do you have any insight on how all these Europeans are getting through to join ISIS? Is Turkey allowing them to cross the border? I assume there are no commercial flights to ISIS controlled territory :-)

From people I've talked to, including Turkish journalists, crossing from Turkey into Syria hasn't been very difficult, regardless of whether one is a journalist, FSA, ISIS, or AQ. I don't know whether Ankara turned a blind eye to foreign jihadis in the early going but can't imagine they would be doing that now, particularly with the MFA's entire consular staff in Mosul captured.
   4295. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:03 PM (#4775371)
Responsible adults know order has to be maintained for society to function. Under current conditions, the city of Ferguson will die. Schools can't open, businesses can't survive. Everyone who can is going to abandon the city, if some way of restoring order (consistent, and along with needed police reform) isn't found.

The primary threat to order in Ferguson is and has been the Ferguson PD. They are the clear proximate cause of the marginal "disorder" that exists.
   4296. formerly dp Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:04 PM (#4775372)
Also, people keep saying "unarmed," but that is only part of the analysis; it's not dispositive. One may well be justified in shooting someone who is unarmed. (Think of domestic violence situations where a woman is trying to protect herself from a batterer.)
IOW, a black man is never unarmed when there's a sidewalk nearby? This is getting really pathetic, Ray.
   4297. JE (Jason) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:09 PM (#4775373)
Yes, it is scary that westernized Muslims seem to be as susceptible, or even more susceptible, to radicalization as traditional Muslims. It bodes ill for a "Reformation" of Islam through contact with the West.

It doesn't look too promising at the moment, Snapper, although there are noteworthy exceptions. Too many Arabs, intellectual or man/woman on the street, believe that ISIS is a Mossad/CIA creation.*

* Speaking of which, Hussein's recent piece is worth reading:
One of the most alarming features of Arab responses to the rise of the Islamic State (IS) in Syria and Iraq is a persistent pattern of neurotic denial in the form of conspiracy theories and other escapist fantasies. But running away from the truth will only complicate the ability of Arab states and societies to comprehend where the IS came from, how it has unexpectedly managed to surge into so much power so quickly, and how it can be effectively countered.


One of the most persistent and widespread delusions is that the IS did not, in fact, emerge from Sunni Muslim communities in Iraq and Syria over the course of the wars there in the past decade. Instead, it is increasingly asserted, the IS is a creature of, and was established by, intelligence services such as the CIA or the Israeli Mossad. An extraordinarily large number of Arabs, Muslims and others appear to have taken refuge in these conspiracy theories. Call it Baghdadi Denial Syndrome.


The most outlandish version circulating online holds that IS leader and "caliph" Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is, in fact, a Jewish actor named Elliot Shimon, or some such plausibly-Jewish name. Shimon, it's laughably alleged, was trained for a year by the Mossad in various skills, including theology and rhetoric.


Even some who don't embrace this detailed self-parody are still clinging to the notion that Baghdadi and the IS are, somehow, foreign impositions on the Sunni Muslim social and political landscape of Syria and Iraq. An astounding number and range of Arabs, in my own experience in recent weeks, embrace some version of a conspiracy theory holding that the IS and Baghdadi are not what they seem and are, in fact, the creations of Western or Israeli intelligence services.
   4298. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:10 PM (#4775374)
Sorry for the interruption but, lest anyone think otherwise, ISIS/AQ beheadings bear little resemblance to those from feudal Japan, let alone Westeros:


Not trying to be a smartass here, but is anyone (here, at least) not fully on board with intervention against ISIS at this point?

Jason, do you have any insight on how all these Europeans are getting through to join ISIS? Is Turkey allowing them to cross the border? I assume there are no commercial flights to ISIS controlled territory :-)


I'm pretty sure you can fly from London to Morocco. I'm pretty sure you can fly from Morrow to Damascus. (I'm not certain there aren't still direct flights to Damascus.) It's probably no harder to get from Europe to "ISIS controlled territory" than it is to get from the US to Cuba. One stop in Toronto is all it takes.
   4299. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:12 PM (#4775375)
IOW, a black man is never unarmed when there's a sidewalk nearby? This is getting really pathetic, Ray.


IOW, you're not interested in any serious discussion. Good to know.
   4300. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 20, 2014 at 12:12 PM (#4775376)
Because the alternative, that a young black man could be gunned down for the crime of jaywalking undermines his world view. He really believes that no one has any cause for complaint. If anything, he does! After all, straight white men are the real victims in Ray's world.


Ray's taxes paid for that bullet. Michael Brown was a lucky ducky who didn't even have to pay for his own bullet.
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