Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Friday, August 01, 2014

OT: Politics, August 2014: DNC criticizes Christie’s economic record with baseball video

As Gov. Chris Christie prepares to cap off his trip to New Hampshire tonight with a fundraiser at a minor-league baseball game, the Democratic National Committee has released a online video taking a swing at the Republican governor’s handling of New Jersey’s economy.

The clip is modeled after an old-time newsreel — the kind that would have been shown in movie houses when Babe Ruth ruled the baseball diamond in the 1920s.

It notes that under Christie — a possible candidate for the Republican nomination for president in 2016 — New Jersey has among the highest property taxes and slowest job growth in the U.S.

“On his economic record, Chris Christie strikes out,” the video’s narrator says.

Bitter Mouse Posted: August 01, 2014 at 09:10 AM | 6359 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: new jersey, politics, video

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 46 of 64 pages ‹ First  < 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 >  Last ›
   4501. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 20, 2014 at 08:46 PM (#4775890)
As for the shoplifting video, I acknowledged about 20 pages ago, from day one that the info was released, that what he seemingly did met the technical definition of robbery because he shoved the clerk, but that the essence of the act was shoplifting. He didn't pull a weapon, or physically force the clerk to give him stuff; he grabbed some stuff and tried to run. Had the clerk not confronted him (which the clerk had every right to do), he'd have left the store with the cigars and not touching anyone.

Shoplifting is when one surreptitiously puts something in his pocket or a shopping bag. The tape, on the other hand, seems like a textbook example of a strong-arm robbery. Brown not only apparently stole something and assaulted a store clerk in the process, he apparently intimidated the much smaller store clerk into not calling 911.

Anyway, when I Googled Johnson's name a few minutes ago, I ran across new headlines claiming — emphasis on claiming — that Johnson is changing his story and saying that Brown did, in fact, rush at Wilson.
   4502. CrosbyBird Posted: August 20, 2014 at 08:55 PM (#4775896)
Yeah, I know what you're saying. And I'm saying that asking Hulk to calm down never works. You can talk to Dr. Banner once he returns to us. But Hulk smash. It's what rage monsters do.

I really hate this line of argument, because it feeds the rhetoric of "blacks are dangerous animals with hair-trigger tempers."

These people are legitimately angry and pacifying them requires just the slightest bit of reasonable behavior. You can absolutely reason with the black community in Ferguson. They're not the ones pointing assault rifles at peaceful protestors and threatening to kill them.

The Hulk is an out-of-control force of nature with anger issues.
   4503. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:04 PM (#4775909)
These people are legitimately angry and pacifying them requires just the slightest bit of reasonable behavior. You can absolutely reason with the black community in Ferguson.

This theory might soon be tested if Johnson does, in fact, change his story.
   4504. Langer Monk Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:07 PM (#4775913)
Tuesday's St. Louis shooting. A black man asks the cops to shoot him. They oblige. My apologies if it was linked earlier.
   4505. Howie Menckel Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:11 PM (#4775917)

analysis of Missouri law

http://www.newrepublic.com/article/119157/darren-wilsons-conviction-will-be-basically-impossible

"In other states, claims of self-defense need to be proven as more likely than not, or in legal speak, to a “preponderance of the evidence.” It’s still the state’s obligation to prove “beyond a reasonable doubt” that the defendant actually killed the victim. But once that’s established, the prosecution doesn’t also have to prove “beyond a reasonable doubt” that the killing wasn’t justified. That’s because justifications—like self-defense—require the accused to make an active case, called an “affirmative defense,” that the circumstances were exceptional. The logic here is simple: As a rule, homicide is a crime and justification is reserved for extraordinary cases. Once the state has proven that a defendant did in fact kill someone, it should be the accused’s obligation to prove his or her actions were justified.

Not in Missouri. Instead, as long as there is a modicum of evidence and reasonable plausibility in support of a self-defense claim, a court must accept the claim and acquit the accused."

uh oh
   4506. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:16 PM (#4775920)
Not in Missouri. Instead, as long as there is a modicum of evidence and reasonable plausibility in support of a self-defense claim, a court must accept the claim and acquit the accused."

uh oh


That will no doubt have Joe and Ray dancing in the aisles. "Hey, a cop killed an unarmed black teenager, but under Missouri law, that's OK. High Five!!"

How about the video in #4505. No doubt self defense as well? How about we hold the people we empower to legally dish out mayhem to a higher standard, than we would an 89 year old great-grandmother, OK?
   4507. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:24 PM (#4775926)
That will no doubt have Joe and Ray dancing in the aisles. "Hey, a cop killed an unarmed black teenager, but under Missouri law, that's OK. High Five!!"

How about the video in #4505. No doubt self defense as well? How about we hold the people we empower to legally dish out mayhem to a higher standard, than we would an 89 year old great-grandmother, OK?

Guy who spends his days tossing barbs at people on the internet thinks the police should try to wrestle a knife away from a guy who's acting erratically, ignoring commands, and advancing to within five feet.

The store owner is Palestinian and the 911 caller was a black St. Louis alderwoman, but I'm sure the lefties are working overtime to find a racial angle here somewhere.
   4508. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:40 PM (#4775936)
Guy who spends his days tossing barbs at people on the internet thinks the police should try to wrestle a knife away from a guy who's acting erratically, ignoring commands, and advancing to within five feet.


yes, yes they should. How is that not obvious?
   4509. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:40 PM (#4775937)
Howie: that New Republic story is not just wrong, but incompetent. In 49 states and the District of Columbia, the burden is on the defendant in a criminal case to put forth a claim of self-defense; once the defendant does so, the state must disprove it beyond a reasonable doubt. (The outlier is Ohio, which requires the defendant to prove self-defense by a preponderance of the evidence.) Missouri has no special law in this regard.
   4510. zenbitz Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:40 PM (#4775938)
Tshipman, I was not trying to make a judgement, I am saying, in essence cops kill people and get away with it. All. the. Time.

Maybe this time will be different. I hope so.
   4511. zenbitz Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:43 PM (#4775940)
Just to bring this thread together... I have a feeling that bombing the crap out of ISIS would be like trying to treat your colon cancer by spraying pepper spray up your butt.
   4512. Howie Menckel Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:47 PM (#4775941)
well, I think you have a law degree and I don't, David, so will stand down.
I don't read New Republic. do they make mistakes that big very often?

author "writes on law" but has only 268 Twitter followers. whew, quite the niche audience there.
   4513. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:48 PM (#4775942)
if cops are given free reign to shoot anyone who looks like they might, possibly, pose some sort of danger, then i don't want to hear any more crap about how they "risk their lives every day." They ain't risking ####. they just shoot anyone who mouths off to them.

If the two guys armed guns and nightsticks, and pepper spray, and tasers were afraid of a lone knifeman, they should hold off and call for backup, not gun the poor SOB down.
   4514. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:53 PM (#4775943)
yes, yes they should. How is that not obvious?

It's probably not obvious because the average person knows that wrestling a knife-wielding man who's acting erratically is likely to turn out rather poorly for the person intervening.

Given that the Radley Balko crowd generally loathes tasers, it's unclear what people wanted to happen here.

if cops are given free reign to shoot anyone who looks like they might, possibly, pose some sort of danger, then i don't want to hear any more crap about how they "risk their lives every day." They ain't risking ####. they just shoot anyone who mouths off to them.

We have an epidemic of non sequiturs today.

I'm going to make a wild guess that this guy in St. Louis wasn't the only person police encountered with a knife, gun, or other weapon yesterday, and since we didn't hear about the police shooting hundreds of other people yesterday, it appears the police don't "just shoot anyone who mouths off." Hysterical comments like the above are silly.
   4515. McCoy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:53 PM (#4775944)
If the guy truly had a knife in his hand (and by knife I mean a real knife) and he was coming at them while saying "shoot me" over and over then I do think you have to chalk this one up as a legit cop assisted suicide. The guy in the video looks like he clearly wants a confrontation and wants to die. I wouldn't be surprised to learn that he stole the sodas just to get the police called. Having said that I'm not sure why they couldn't have led with tasers.
   4516. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:54 PM (#4775945)
Guy who spends his days tossing barbs at people on the internet thinks the police should try to wrestle a knife away from a guy who's acting erratically, ignoring commands, and advancing to within five feet.
Police are allowed to use deadly force in two situations: to prevent death /serious bodily injury to themselves or others (which is the same standard as for real people), and to prevent someone who poses a risk of death/serious bodily injury to others from escaping.

Here's when they can't use lethal force: because someone is "ignoring commands."

Based on what I could see in that video, neither of the permissible situations apply to this shooting. He obviously wasn't trying to escape, and he had not attacked or attempted to attack them. They could use non lethal force, or (yes) they could try to wrestle the knife away, or they could wait.

Unless the video missed something because of its distance, that was an unlawful use of force.
   4517. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 09:56 PM (#4775948)
As for the shoplifting video, I acknowledged about 20 pages ago, from day one that the info was released, that what he seemingly did met the technical definition of robbery because he shoved the clerk, but that the essence of the act was shoplifting. He didn't pull a weapon, or physically force the clerk to give him stuff; he grabbed some stuff and tried to run. Had the clerk not confronted him (which the clerk had every right to do), he'd have left the store with the cigars and not touching anyone.


If it met the technical definition of a robbery - as you acknowledge and as I know you acknowledged from day one - it was a robbery and makes sense to talk about it that way. Nobody is calling it an armed robbery - just a robbery. This fits just fine. "Shoplifting," however, conjures up images of Lindsay Lohan sticking a necklace in her bag and leaving the store. (Or conjures up images of Brown simply taking the item quietly and leaving without incident. The fact that he got into an angry confrontation with the clerk is why it's not right to call it "shoplifting.")

(And I thought he did end up with the cigarellos or whatever they were.)
   4518. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:00 PM (#4775951)
It's probably not obvious because the average person knows that wrestling a knife-wielding man who's acting erratically is likely to turn out rather poorly for the person intervening.


First of all, it's persons, plural. Second if all, it's what they are trained for, or should be. Third of all, they are armed with plenty of non-lethal weapons, they don't have to go all Bruce Lee on his ass. Fourth of all, failing all that, they have the option to call in backup. In fact, backup was already on the way. In the video, a second patrol car shows up 1:15 from the shooting.
   4519. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:05 PM (#4775955)
if cops are given free reign to shoot anyone who looks like they might, possibly, pose some sort of danger, then i don't want to hear any more crap about how they "risk their lives every day." They ain't risking ####. they just shoot anyone who mouths off to them.

We have an epidemic of non sequiturs today.


I'll say again, the cops in that video weren't risking ####. If it's too hard or too scary to enforce the peace without blowing someone's head off every time they ignore commands, get another job.
   4520. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:06 PM (#4775956)
That will no doubt have Joe and Ray dancing in the aisles. "Hey, a cop killed an unarmed black teenager, but under Missouri law, that's OK. High Five!!"


Not sure where you get the idea that I think this is anything but a tragedy, whether the cop is convicted or not.

But I will support any verdict that is just under the facts and under Missouri law. Note how I didn't say "cheer."
   4521. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:06 PM (#4775957)
First of all, it's persons, plural. Second if all, it's what they are trained for, or should be. Third of all, they are armed with plenty of non-lethal weapons, they don't have to go all Bruce Lee on his ass. Fourth of all, failing all that, they have the option to call in backup. In fact, backup was already on the way. In the video, a second patrol car shows up 1:15 from the shooting.

Guy who hangs out on the internet all day says other people aren't heroic enough.

***
Here's when they can't use lethal force: because someone is "ignoring commands."

I didn't say the police could use deadly force simply because someone "ignored commands."

Based on what I could see in that video, neither of the permissible situations apply to this shooting. He obviously wasn't trying to escape, and he had not attacked or attempted to attack them. They could use non lethal force, or (yes) they could try to wrestle the knife away, or they could wait.

Unless the video missed something because of its distance, that was an unlawful use of force.

Your opinion seems to be in the minority.
   4522. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:09 PM (#4775961)
Guy who spends his days tossing barbs at people on the internet thinks the police should try to wrestle a knife away from a guy who's acting erratically, ignoring commands, and advancing to within five feet.


yes, yes they should.


You try first. If it doesn't go well from you and you end up dead, I'll have Sam try next.
   4523. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:13 PM (#4775966)
You try first. If it doesn't go well from you and you end up dead, I'll have Sam try next.


So, cops shouldn't be expected to do anything more than an untrained 51 year old stay at home Dad should. I didn't know you had such a low opinion of police.

Guy who hangs out on the internet all day says other people aren't heroic enough.


My hero days are over. I did my 8 years in the military. How about you tough guy?

   4524. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:13 PM (#4775967)
I didn't say the police could use deadly force simply because someone "ignored commands."

Then, other than the erotic charge you get from the thought of police commands, why did you include them in your list?
   4525. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:14 PM (#4775968)
I'll say again, the cops in that video weren't risking ####. If it's too hard or too scary to enforce the peace without blowing someone's head off every time they ignore commands, get another job.

Bingo.
   4526. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:19 PM (#4775970)
Cops have no problem pepper spraying peaceful protesters posing no threat to anyone. But when it comes to a real world practical use for the product, like disabling an erratic man with a knife? Just blow his brains out Joe says.
   4527. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:19 PM (#4775971)

I'm trying to imagine why anyone would want to be a cop in the regime apparently envisioned by SBB, Misirlou, et al. In their world, not only should non-cops apparently get the benefit of the doubt over cops, but cops would also have to clear a higher threshold for self-defense claims and be willing and able to, e.g., attempt to wrestle knives away from people.

I wouldn't want to be a cop under the current system. SBB, Misirlou, et al., apparently want to make the job about 95 percent less attractive.
   4528. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:21 PM (#4775973)
In their world, not only should non-cops apparently get the benefit of the doubt over cops, but cops would also have to clear a higher threshold for self-defense claims and be willing and able to attempt to wrestle knives away from people.


By Jove, I think he's got it.
   4529. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:23 PM (#4775978)
n their world, not only should non-cops apparently get the benefit of the doubt over cops,


When an unarmed man is shot dead by a cop with a gun, or when a man armed with only a knife is shot dead from a distance by two cops with guns, you're damned right I give the benefit of the doubt to the dead guy, and so should every right thinking person.
   4530. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:24 PM (#4775979)
My hero days are over. I did my 8 years in the military. How about you tough guy?

???

I'm not the one acting like a "tough guy" here, as if wrestling knives away from deranged people was some routine activity.

***
Then, other than the erotic charge you get from the thought of police commands, why did you include them in your list?

Not even Kevin had reached these levels of trolling. Congrats ... I guess.
   4531. Joey B. Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:26 PM (#4775982)
Seven game lead and eight in the loss column now, Psychopath.

I bet you can't believe you won five in a row and you're further back now than you were before.
   4532. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:27 PM (#4775983)
When an unarmed man is shot dead by a cop with a gun, or when a man armed with only a knife is shot dead from a distance by two cops with guns, you're damned right I give the benefit of the doubt to the dead guy, and so should every right thinking person.

Five feet isn't all that much "distance," and it doesn't appear the guy was trying to close that distance because he wanted a hug.
   4533. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:27 PM (#4775984)
and be willing and able to attempt to wrestle knives away from people.


To be clear, if it was a lone cop in the video, I'd be way more willing to cut him some slack. But with two, there was ample time for one to keep a gun on him while the other prepared to hit him with some non lethal force. I don't know why anyone would want to live in a system that promotes otherwise.
   4534. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:29 PM (#4775990)
I'm not the one acting like a "tough guy" here, as if wrestling knives away from deranged people was some routine activity.


If two cops working in tandem can't do it*, get better cops (or up your training). Or wait for backup which arrived a little over a minute later. this is just another case of cops blowing away a guy who disrespected them.

* and what's with the obsession with wrestling? What about nightsticks, pepper spray, tasers? Why do we give them all this stuff anyway? other than, you know, to tase grandmothers and pepper spray protesters. Routine "risking their lives" sort of thing.
   4535. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:32 PM (#4775994)
To be clear, if it was a lone cop in the video, I'd be way more willing to cut him some slack. But with two, there was ample time for one to keep a gun on him while the other prepared to hit him with some non lethal force. I don't know why anyone would want to live in a system that promotes otherwise.

Ample time? It looked like the whole scene unfolded in 10 to 15 seconds.
   4536. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:32 PM (#4775995)
So, cops shouldn't be expected to do anything more than an untrained 51 year old stay at home Dad should. I didn't know you had such a low opinion of police.


I actually hadn't watched the #4505 video before I made my snide comment. Now that I have, I agree with David: it looked like an unjustified use of force. Though it's hard to see from a distance exactly how much of a threat he posed to them. He seems to be just sort of wandering around and he gets a bit close, and they could probably have waited him out. They definitely could have just tased him.

The video shows once again: (a) cops are trained to shoot several bullets when they make the decision to shoot (I'm not making a comment on whether that's good or bad, just that people shouldn't always be surprised at the number of shots because it doesn't prove anything; and (b) cops are not trained to "shoot to stop," as Dr. Ben Carson naively said on tv last week (again - I'm not making an editorial comment, just noting it). If ever there was a situation to shoot to "wing" the guy as happens in tv, this was it.
   4537. greenback calls it soccer Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:33 PM (#4775996)
Damn neocons even have support in Ferguson.
   4538. McCoy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:34 PM (#4775998)
If two cops working in tandem can't do it, get better cops (or up your training). Or wait for backup which arrived a little over a minute later. this is just another case of cops blowing away a guy who disrespected them.

I don't think this is a case of cops killing someone because they got disrespected. I also don't think that happens all that often. A more likely answer is that cops are not well trained to deal with these kinds of situations. That isn't to say that they don't get gun training and tactical training and so forth. They do but they learn over time that the system is working for them and that they won't really get into trouble if they fire their gun. Recall the Wisconsin shooting I talked about the other day. The father of the slain son claims that in the entire history of Wisconsin policing not a single officer has ever been found to have fired his weapon unjustly. If the barrier to firing your weapon is really low then you're going to use it a lot more and we see that in the statistics. Cops reach for their guns way too often and it is because doing so has no real repercussions for them.
   4539. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:36 PM (#4775999)
By Jove, I think he's got it.


It's lunacy to ask a cop to wrestle a knife away from a guy.
   4540. McCoy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:37 PM (#4776000)
If ever there was a situation to shoot to "wing" the guy as happens in tv, this was it.

The whole shoot to wing thing is nonsensical anyway. Lawyers would eat that up. "You used lethal force on my client when you knew that the situation called for non-lethal force?"
   4541. McCoy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:38 PM (#4776001)
It's lunacy to ask a cop to wrestle a knife away from a guy.

What do cops in the UK do?
   4542. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:39 PM (#4776003)
It's lunacy to ask a cop to wrestle a knife away from a guy.


I tend to agree, and I made the classic mistake of accepting his premise. There were (or should have been), plenty of non-lethal options other than "wrestling the knife away", as I noted in #4518 and #4534.
   4543. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:40 PM (#4776004)
To be clear, if it was a lone cop in the video, I'd be way more willing to cut him some slack. But with two, there was ample time for one to keep a gun on him while the other prepared to hit him with some non lethal force. I don't know why anyone would want to live in a system that promotes otherwise.


LoFl. Now you're asking a cop to fight a guy while another guy has a gun on the situation. Yeah, that sounds very safe for the guy who you have appointed for the suicide mission. Not only does he have to hope to win the knife-wrestling battle with the maniac, he has to also hope that he doesn't get hit with friendly fire from the gun that's trained on the situation.

Look, I agree they could have done something differently -- waited him out, tased him. But asking them to wrestle a knife away from him is really dopey.
   4544. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:42 PM (#4776006)
I tend to agree, and I made the classic mistake of accepting his premise. There were (or should have been), plenty of non-lethal options other than "wrestling the knife away", as I noted in #4518 and #4534.

The nightstick and pepper spray examples weren't much better. If you're close enough to hit someone with a nightstick, they're close enough to stab you.
   4545. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:42 PM (#4776007)
But asking them to wrestle a knife away from him is really dopey.



See above.
   4546. McCoy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:42 PM (#4776008)
Also, here is where I drag Snapper's worldview into this as well. We have people who intentionally and knowingly take up careers that will put them in harm's way yet we have numerous advocates on this site who fervently believe that these people should be allowed to administer lethal force (and in Snapper's case indiscriminately) so that they are not in harm's way. That's why you have the job! To be in harm's way. It reminds me of the cook I once had who came up to me and said he didn't want to work Friday or Saturday. I told him then he didn't want a job because Friday and Saturday are why we all have jobs. Not wanting to work those days basically meant you didn't want a job.
   4547. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:46 PM (#4776009)
Five feet isn't all that much "distance," and it doesn't appear the guy was trying to close that distance because he wanted a hug.
It doesn't appear the guy was trying to close that distance, period. He was more meandering around; he certainly wasn't lunging towards them. (Or "bum-rushing" them, to use the phrase of the week.)
   4548. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:50 PM (#4776011)
I don't think this is a case of cops killing someone because they got disrespected. I also don't think that happens all that often.
I agree on both counts. If they feel disrespected, they may beat a guy to a pulp; they may arrest him on bogus charges and leave him unfed in a cell for a few days. But they don't kill for that reason. And here, it doesn't appear they killed for that reason; they killed because they were scared.
A more likely answer is that cops are not well trained to deal with these kinds of situations.
Right. They have it in their head that they have a dangerous job, and their view is that they'd rather kill than undertake any risk themselves.
   4549. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:50 PM (#4776012)
It doesn't appear the guy was trying to close that distance, period. He was more meandering around; he certainly wasn't lunging towards them.

Well, his meandering seemed to take him in only one direction: Toward the passenger-side officer.

My opinion of this shooting might be different if the police had been on the scene longer, but they had just arrived on a 911 call of an erratic guy with a knife — called in by an alderwoman — and they ended up in a confrontation within a matter of seconds of arriving.
   4550. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:52 PM (#4776014)
If you're close enough to hit someone with a nightstick, they're close enough to stab you.
If it's a machete, maybe. Or if the guy has orangutang-proportioned arms, I guess. Otherwise, no. (I mean, yes, if you're trying to get as close as you can to club them over the head -- but not if you're simply defending yourself from the knife.)

My opinion of this shooting might be different if the police had been on the scene longer, but they had just arrived on a 911 call of an erratic guy with a knife — called in by an alderwoman — and they ended up in a confrontation within a matter of seconds of arriving.
They "ended up in a confrontation"? Why not add "mistakes were made"? They didn't "end up in confrontation"; they confronted the guy.
   4551. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:52 PM (#4776016)

If two cops working in tandem can't do it*, get better cops (or up your training). Or wait for backup which arrived a little over a minute later. this is just another case of cops blowing away a guy who disrespected them.


You're far off the reservation here. They cared that a crazy man disrespected them? Please.

Joe is right: if the cop never gets the benefit of the doubt, even in a difficult and inherently unpredictable situation - if every inference is resolved against him - if people always think they're lying no matter what they say - then it's lunacy to become a cop.

You wouldn't want people to treat you or a family member or a friend that way. So why do it to someone else?
   4552. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:57 PM (#4776017)
If two cops working in tandem can't do it*, get better cops (or up your training). Or wait for backup which arrived a little over a minute later. this is just another case of cops blowing away a guy who disrespected them.


You're far off the reservation here. They cared that a crazy man disrespected them? Please.


I retract that last sentence. I was just angry and bewildered that people (including you at first), seemed to support the shooting in the video. We seem to agree as to the larger (and most important) point, and let's leave it at that.

As for Joe, I have no idea. He appears to be hopeless.
   4553. greenback calls it soccer Posted: August 20, 2014 at 10:59 PM (#4776018)
I'm not sure what it says, but it says something that the fat guy, the white guy, and camera guy all stood there and watched, rather than running over to the police for protection or to point out the knife guy.
   4554. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:03 PM (#4776020)
The Ferguson PD--by being less than transparent, by refusing to release the cop's name, etc--suggested they were in CYA mode from day one.

When the Internet is filled with death threats against the officer, disclosing his identity is going to be delayed.
   4555. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:06 PM (#4776021)
When the Internet is filled with death threats against the officer, disclosing his identity is going to be delayed.


And how many other murder suspects is that courtesy granted to?
   4556. GregD Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:06 PM (#4776022)
The discussion here illustrates also why Ferguson's actions were so countrproductive. The St Louis chief arrived at the scene and heard complaints from people and quieted those complaints by promising to give out all the information he could. He has apparently done so, and there isn't rioting in St Louis tonight. Too bad Ferguson pd followed such an unusual procedure that puts them at variance with every major department that has weighed in. And there were good reasons, apparently, for Ferguson people to believe that the pd would never release information. A Ferguson resident in one of the Times articles claims his friend was killed by police 10 years ago and he has never been able to get the officer's name. I doubt he's exhausted all his legal options to try to get it, but if the police are that committed to stonewalling, it is easier to understand why the ministers who are now guarding property were on the first night telling people to go out and protest all night: They didn't believe that any other measure would get any response at all. The rugs were lifted and the brooms were out.
   4557. kthejoker Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:18 PM (#4776028)
I'm trying to imagine why anyone would want to be a cop in the regime apparently envisioned by SBB, Misirlou, et al. In their world, not only should non-cops apparently get the benefit of the doubt over cops, but cops would also have to clear a higher threshold for self-defense claims and be willing and able to, e.g., attempt to wrestle knives away from people.


This is how they police in Germany, the UK, New Zealand, Ireland, Sweden, Norway. They don't use guns, they use non-lethal force, they work in teams, they talk people down, they don't kill the people they're sworn to protect and serve, almost ever. Why do we have such incompetent police training?
   4558. kthejoker Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:22 PM (#4776032)
By the way, not entirely relevant, but kind of relevant?

$5 MILLION SETTLEMENT FOR FAMILY OF CORVETTE DRIVER KILLED BY LAPD
   4559. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:25 PM (#4776034)
Back to brown:

New eyewitness

7 minute interview with Anderson Cooper. In a nutshell, he says he heard a commotion outside, saw a struggle at a police car, saw Brown run away, saw the cop get out of the car and shoot at Brown as he was running away. He then ran outside ( at which, he could neither see nor hear anything) in time to see Brown holding his arms crossed against his stomach as he was falling/stumbling forward as the cop lets off a couple more shots.

Aside from some mild dialect*, the man is very well spoken and completely credible to me.

* I don't know any other way to phrase it. Just some non standard English grammar that one might expect from a black community. Ah hell, maybe I shouldn't have mentioned it. The man was articulate.
   4560. Greg K Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:25 PM (#4776035)
What do cops in the UK do?

I'm curious myself, what are the differences in the force police officers are allowed to use in different national systems?
   4561. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:27 PM (#4776037)
After skimming through a couple of hundred posts to catch up, I see that no one has mentioned an important aspect of the case. The shooting happened around noon on a Saturday. I don't know that much about the neighborhood, but it's not at the end of an isolated road. It's fairly likely there were more witnesses than the two who were initially interviewed in the media. If others witnesses are located who confirm the "pro-Brown" account that could make a very strong case against Wilson. However, if those witnesses were to corroborate some or all of Wilson's account, there wouldn't be much of a case left. Witness testimony that aligns with the forensic evidence would be especially probative. The St. Louis Post Dispatch reported that police sources indicate that there are now 12 witnesses who corroborate Wilson's account. I'll be curious as to whether that turns out to be the case.

   4562. Greg K Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:28 PM (#4776040)
Aside from some mild dialect, the man is very well spoken and completely credible to me.

I don't know, I'm not sure I trust anyone who naps at 11:30pm.

...of course, the reasonable explanation being he works an odd-hour shift.

EDIT: Whoops! This whole time I was thinking this happened in the evening. Colour me an idiot.
   4563. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:29 PM (#4776041)
This is how they police in Germany, the UK, New Zealand, Ireland, Sweden, Norway. They don't use guns, they use non-lethal force, they work in teams, they talk people down, they don't kill the people they're sworn to protect and serve, almost ever. Why do we have such incompetent police training?

Looking past the apples-to-oranges comparison, you seem to be asking the wrong question.
   4564. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:32 PM (#4776042)
EDIT: Whoops! This whole time I was thinking this happened in the evening. Colour me an idiot.


Yeah. A Saturday late morning nap is the most natural thing in the world.
   4565. Greg K Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:32 PM (#4776043)
Looking past the apples-to-oranges comparison, you seem to be asking the wrong question.

Why do we have such incompetent citizens?
   4566. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:33 PM (#4776044)
The St. Louis Post Dispatch reported that police sources indicate that there are now 12 witnesses who corroborate Wilson's account.


What are their badge numbers?
   4567. GregD Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:34 PM (#4776046)
Clapper, the newspaper never printed that. A reporter sent a tweet stating that, then issued a weird semi-retraction where she said she was on leave and the tweet did not meet the paper's publication standards. link

It is possible that a dozen people corroborate it but it is false to say that the Post-Dispatch reported that, unless there's been a very recent update.
   4568. kthejoker Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:49 PM (#4776061)
City of London Officer Safety Manual - presumably following common practices of UK nationwide policing.

Pretty good read all around, especially the section about Tactical Communications around page 90. I would hope our policies have the same sorts of guidelines, but it's clear they walk the walk in a way we don't.

   4569. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:49 PM (#4776063)
It is possible that a dozen people corroborate it but it is false to say that the Post-Dispatch reported that, unless there's been a very recent update.

It was a St. Louis Dispatch reporter that sent out the tweet, and as I noted, she indicated that info came from police sources. That's all I heard, and I didn't exactly vouch for it since I said "I'll be curious as to whether that turns out to be the case."
   4570. kthejoker Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:50 PM (#4776064)
This is how they police in Germany, the UK, New Zealand, Ireland, Sweden, Norway.


Looking past the apples-to-oranges comparison


What makes them apples to oranges, exactly?
   4571. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:52 PM (#4776066)
Michelle Bernard:

“There is a war on black boys in this country, in my opinion — there is a war on black men,” she told Chris Matthews. “It is an absolutely deplorable situation that the United States, which is supposed to be the greatest nation on earth, sits back and allows black boys to be murdered.”?


So... War On Women... War On Black Men... not many categories left.

And this is where I think Joe's black-on-black crime point IS relevant. The vast majority of black men killed in this country are not killed by cops, are not killed by white people.... they are killed by black men.
   4572. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:55 PM (#4776067)
What makes them apples to oranges, exactly?
They have metric criminals.
   4573. GregD Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:56 PM (#4776068)
Clapper you said the St. Louis Post-Dispatch "reported" that. That's false. A tweet by a reporter on leave who then retracts it as not publishable is the same as reported? You're spinning hard, here!
   4574. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 20, 2014 at 11:59 PM (#4776069)
Via Radley Balko, Deadspin is crowdsourcing a database of every police shooting in the country.
   4575. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 21, 2014 at 12:00 AM (#4776070)
Clapper you said the St. Louis Post-Dispatch "reported" that. That's false. A tweet by a reporter on leave who then retracts it as not publishable is the same as reported? You're spinning hard, here!


Be reasonable. If a reporter for the paper tweeted it, we can fairly say that the paper reported it. That's what people generally mean anyway when they say a paper reported something. Her later backpedaling is certainly notable and should be noted, but it's not proper to accuse Clapper of something untoward.
   4576. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 21, 2014 at 12:00 AM (#4776071)
Clapper, the newspaper never printed that. A reporter sent a tweet stating that, then issued a weird semi-retraction where she said she was on leave and the tweet did not meet the paper's publication standards. link

The reporter has been on FMLA leave since March. Apparently, a source told her something and she tweeted it, but she's not part of the team covering the Ferguson story.

It is possible that a dozen people corroborate it but it is false to say that the Post-Dispatch reported that, unless there's been a very recent update.

Well, sort of. The reporter did report it; it just wasn't printed in the paper. It's probably not much different than Rosenthal tweeting something that doesn't make it into a FoxSports.com article.

EDIT: Beverage of choice to Ray.
   4577. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 21, 2014 at 12:06 AM (#4776072)
It's probably not much different than Rosenthal tweeting something that doesn't make it into a FoxSports.com article.

In which case it's reported that "Ken Rosenthat tweets", not "Fox Sports reports".
   4578. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 21, 2014 at 12:21 AM (#4776077)
In which case it's reported that "Ken Rosenthat tweets", not "Fox Sports reports".

Maybe, but it seems like a trivial distinction. No one thinks, "Rosenthal only tweeted that; I better wait to see if he includes it in an article before I really believe it."

***
What makes them apples to oranges, exactly?

With the exception of the U.K., those places don't have a big, violent underclass wreaking havoc in their cities.

In the 11 days since Michael Brown was killed, there have been ~480 homicides in the U.S., many if not most of them in inner cities. But a bunch of rock-throwers in Ferguson have gotten more news coverage than all of those homicides added together.
   4579. kthejoker Posted: August 21, 2014 at 12:28 AM (#4776078)
In the 11 days since Michael Brown was killed, there have been ~480 homicides in the U.S., many if not most of them in inner cities. But a bunch of rock-throwers in Ferguson have gotten more news coverage than all of those homicides added together.


What a strange non sequitur. The whole point we're talking about is about police tactics during confrontations with citizens. Nothing to do with crime prevention, homicides, or the criminal underclass. Those have their own beats.
   4580. kthejoker Posted: August 21, 2014 at 12:30 AM (#4776079)
   4581. CrosbyBird Posted: August 21, 2014 at 12:33 AM (#4776080)
They could use non lethal force, or (yes) they could try to wrestle the knife away, or they could wait.

It's that last one that I think we see far too little of. If it's not an imminently dangerous situation, clear everyone from the area and let the guy calm down. Wait for an officer with body armor to show up.

Why is it always framed as a binary of "do nothing" or "shoot dead"?
   4582. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 21, 2014 at 12:33 AM (#4776081)
What a strange non sequitur. The whole point we're talking about is about police tactics during confrontations with citizens.

It's not a non sequitur at all. You seem to have reversed cause and effect here, seemingly believing that people/criminals would be nicer if only the police were nicer.

I've never been to Norway, but I'm quite confident in saying that the average day for a police officer in Oslo looks quite a bit different than the average day for a police officer in Chicago or St. Louis.

Nothing to do with crime prevention, homicides, or the criminal underclass. Those have their own beats.

What do you mean, "Those have their own beats"? There isn't some special group of police who have "confrontations with citizens."
   4583. tshipman Posted: August 21, 2014 at 12:52 AM (#4776085)
However, if those witnesses were to corroborate some or all of Wilson's account, there wouldn't be much of a case left. Witness testimony that aligns with the forensic evidence would be especially probative. The St. Louis Post Dispatch reported that police sources indicate that there are now 12 witnesses who corroborate Wilson's account. I'll be curious as to whether that turns out to be the case.


As I understand it, no one really disputes that Brown ran away and Wilson ran after him shooting. That to me seems really bad, and not what I want a police officer to do.

Now, it seems like the dispute is whether Brown was standing still or moving forward when Wilson killed him. Either way, Wilson's actions seem awful.
   4584. greenback calls it soccer Posted: August 21, 2014 at 01:14 AM (#4776088)
With the exception of the U.K., those places don't have a big, violent underclass wreaking havoc in their cities.

Gee, Joe, why is it so common for them to wreak havoc on their cities? What could be the big difference between the US and Europe?
   4585. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 21, 2014 at 01:16 AM (#4776089)
Gee, Joe, why is it so common for them to wreak havoc on their cities? What could be the big difference between the US and Europe?

Hmm ... The police make them do it?
   4586. BrianBrianson Posted: August 21, 2014 at 05:05 AM (#4776111)
I've never been to Norway, but I'm quite confident in saying that the average day for a police officer in Oslo looks quite a bit different than the average day for a police officer in Chicago or St. Louis.


It does, but the coppers in Glasgow wouldn't feel all that different from those in St. Louis.

Cops have no problem pepper spraying peaceful protesters posing no threat to anyone.


If a student sitting on the sidewalk is dangerous enough to need a pepper-spraying, it should be obvious that a standing man is dangerous enough to shoot dead.
   4587. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 21, 2014 at 06:51 AM (#4776116)
You wouldn't want people to treat you or a family member or a friend that way. So why do it to someone else?

It's an empirical fact that they regularly lie.
   4588. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 21, 2014 at 06:58 AM (#4776118)
Be reasonable. If a reporter for the paper tweeted it, we can fairly say that the paper reported it. That's what people generally mean anyway when they say a paper reported something

It's the exact opposite of the paper reporting it. She freelanced and whatever was in the tweet wasn't credible or developed enough to make it into the paper.
   4589. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 21, 2014 at 07:03 AM (#4776119)


St. Louis Police chief defends Shooting

As new cell phone video emerged Wednesday of the fatal confrontation that claimed the life of the African-American man, St. Louis Police Chief Sam Dotson tried to explain the officers' action in an appearance on CNN.

"An edge weapon, a knife, within 21 feet is a lethal weapon," Dotson told CNN. " The officer just did, what I think you or I would do -- they protected their life in that situation."

Dotson said the man was 23 and was "acting erratically, walking back and forth up and down the street."
Asked why the officers didn't use alternate weapons, such as a stun gun, to subdue the man, Dotson responded by saying such defenses can be unreliable.
"So you've got an individual armed with a knife, who's moving towards you, not listening to any verbal commands, continues, says 'Shoot me now, kill me now.' Tasers aren't 100%. If that Taser misses, that subject continues on, and hurts an officer," he said.


Incredibly lame excuse.
   4590. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 21, 2014 at 07:16 AM (#4776122)
Aside from the unreliability of the tweet, the increasing notion that the police are playing defense attorney here is very disturbing and suspicious. Take this latest "police sources indicate that there are now 12 witnesses who corroborate Wilson's account.". Maybe there are, maybe there aren't. We know there are plenty of witnesses who dispute his account. We hear from more and more of them every day. How come we don't hear from the others, except through anonymous call ins to radio shows with second hand information? Why aren't police leaking to reporters that there are also many witnesses who dispute the officer's claim? Why is it that the only information forthcoming from the police is either highly positive of the officer or highly negative toward the victim?

Sam need not answer, as everyone knows what he's going to say. I just think the authoritarians among us need to think on that for a bit.
   4591. Lassus Posted: August 21, 2014 at 07:17 AM (#4776123)
Are these guys given nightsticks any more? I'm not exactly military-trained, but I'm still pretty sure I'd take a nightstick over a knife in a fight with a random dude and be pretty sure I'd come out on top.

That being said, the dude was certainly deranged and didn't really have a problem with his own death. If not for the previous St. Louis police shooting death, this one wouldn't have registered a blip in the national consciousness.
   4592. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: August 21, 2014 at 07:22 AM (#4776124)
Never bring a knife to a gunfight. A guy pulls a knife, you shoot him dead. That's the St. Louis way.
   4593. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 21, 2014 at 07:25 AM (#4776125)
I've never been to Norway, but I'm quite confident in saying that the average day for a police officer in Oslo looks quite a bit different than the average day for a police officer in Chicago or St. Louis.

People walk on residential streets more in Chicago than Oslo?
   4594. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 21, 2014 at 07:45 AM (#4776129)
I'm still pretty sure I'd take a nightstick over a knife in a fight with a random dude and be pretty sure I'd come out on top.

I'm pretty sure most people would choose & use the weapon that provided the highest probability they'd come out on top. No one opts for the (arguable) 60-40 edge the nightstick provides if they have a gun.
   4595. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 21, 2014 at 07:49 AM (#4776130)
Also, here is where I drag Snapper's worldview into this as well. We have people who intentionally and knowingly take up careers that will put them in harm's way yet we have numerous advocates on this site who fervently believe that these people should be allowed to administer lethal force (and in Snapper's case indiscriminately) so that they are not in harm's way.

Huh? Where did I say anything on this subject? Much less say the police can use lethal force "indiscriminately"? My only comment on the actual precipitating incident has been that I have no clue what happened.

All the use of force I've been talking about is to prevent rioting; i.e. to protect other citizens, not the police. Sam's "runaway, runaway!" plan would protect the cops just fine. And, it would be very unlikely that you'd need lethal force to disperse the rioters, unless they directly assault the police.

On the broader point, ANYONE has the right the right to use lethal force if they (or another innocent person) are faced with an imminent threat of death or severe bodily harm. Cops don't cede that right by putting on a badge.

Nobody is required to risk a stabbing or severe beating to safeguard the life of an assailant. Nor should they be.

That said, I don't know if this particular assailant posed an imminent threat to the officers. Haven't seen the video. Maybe they should have tased him.

   4596. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: August 21, 2014 at 07:53 AM (#4776131)
People walk on residential streets more in Chicago than Oslo?


Having just returned from Copenhagen, I can say I witnessed a person walking in the middle of a residential street and a cop nearby do nothing. He actually might have said hello! Crazy place!
   4597. Lassus Posted: August 21, 2014 at 07:58 AM (#4776134)
I'm pretty sure most people would choose & use the weapon that provided the highest probability they'd come out on top. No one opts for the (arguable) 60-40 edge the nightstick provides if they have a gun.

Then why the hell are cops ever given anything BUT guns for confrontations? Because they definitely are.

For a trained police officer, I'm going to contend those 60/40 odds are absolutely not accurate.

Lastly, did someone here say earlier that it was a Hollywood conceit to think that any cop would be capable of a non-killshot?
   4598. Lassus Posted: August 21, 2014 at 07:59 AM (#4776135)
Having just returned from Copenhagen, I can say I witnessed a person walking in the middle of a residential street and a cop nearby do nothing. He actually might have said hello! Crazy place!

If the cop was not singing "Copenhagen, Copenhagen..." at the time then I'm considering your trip a failure.
   4599. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 21, 2014 at 08:14 AM (#4776138)
Encouraging students to take an F rather than risk turning in writing assignments - High School Student Arrested & Suspended After Writing That He Had Used A Gun To Kill His Neighbor's Dinosaur:
Investigators say the teacher contacted school officials after seeing the message containing the words "gun" and "take care of business," and police were then notified on Tuesday. Summerville police officials say Stone's bookbag and locker were searched on Tuesday, and a gun was not found.

According to Gray, Stone was suspended for the rest of the week. Gray says she is furious that the school did not contact her before her son was arrested.

It's unclear if they dug up the kid's yard looking for the dinosaur body.
   4600. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 21, 2014 at 08:23 AM (#4776142)
Then why the hell are cops ever given anything BUT guns for confrontations?


Because cops are armed and enter their daily duties with the mentality of Marines deploying into the Helmand province. They dress themselves physically and mentally as if they're going to have to go through a platoon of well armed Taliban, and then fight off Super Bowser armed with nothing but a night stick and a pocket knife to advance to the next level. In short, because cops and the infrastructure behind them, are fascists.

Lastly, did someone here say earlier that it was a Hollywood conceit to think that any cop would be capable of a non-killshot?


Yes. But something akin to 99% of all thinking and preparation for cops entering their daily patrols comes from watching "Training Day" on repeat, with a second showing of "End Of Watch" in case someone missed the shooty bits of the first one.
Page 46 of 64 pages ‹ First  < 41 42 43 44 45 46 47 48 49 50 51 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Martin Hemner
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - November 2014
(972 - 4:02pm, Nov 23)
Last: PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth)

NewsblogOT - November 2014 College Football thread
(567 - 3:59pm, Nov 23)
Last: AuntBea

NewsblogOTP Politics November 2014: Mets Deny Bias in Ticket Official’s Firing
(4189 - 3:54pm, Nov 23)
Last: Mefisto

NewsblogPablo Sandoval leaning toward Red Sox, to decide next week — Padres have highest offer, all offers on table (including SF Giants’) - John Shea
(18 - 3:48pm, Nov 23)
Last: Dock Ellis on Acid

NewsblogDeadspin: Curt Schilling’s Son Accidentally Brings Fake Grenade To Logan Airport
(21 - 3:35pm, Nov 23)
Last: Dr. Chaleeko

NewsblogOT:  Soccer (the Round, True Football), November 2014
(443 - 3:31pm, Nov 23)
Last: Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site

NewsblogAstros interested in Robertson: source | New York Post
(12 - 3:02pm, Nov 23)
Last: Dock Ellis on Acid

NewsblogESPN Suspends Keith Law From Twitter For Defending Evolution
(105 - 2:47pm, Nov 23)
Last: JE (Jason)

NewsblogBraves shopping Justin Upton at a steep price | New York Post
(32 - 2:25pm, Nov 23)
Last: CFBF Is A Golden Spider Duck

NewsblogKemp drawing interest, raising chance he's the Dodgers OF dealt - CBSSports.com
(18 - 1:54pm, Nov 23)
Last: Dan The Mediocre

NewsblogPirates DFA Ike Davis, clear path for Pedro Alvarez - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
(7 - 1:53pm, Nov 23)
Last: Howie Menckel

NewsblogSunday Notes: Arroyo’s Rehab, Clark & the MLBPA, Doc Gooden, AFL Arms, ChiSox, more
(2 - 1:50pm, Nov 23)
Last: bobm

NewsblogFemale Sportswriter Asks: 'Why Are All My Twitter Followers Men?' | ThinkProgress
(147 - 1:19pm, Nov 23)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogMike Schmidt: Marlins' Stanton too rich too early? | www.palmbeachpost.com
(28 - 12:37pm, Nov 23)
Last: BDC

NewsblogCashman in wait-and-see mode on retooling Yanks | yankees.com
(21 - 12:32pm, Nov 23)
Last: You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR)

Page rendered in 0.5757 seconds
53 querie(s) executed