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Friday, August 01, 2014

OT: Politics, August 2014: DNC criticizes Christie’s economic record with baseball video

As Gov. Chris Christie prepares to cap off his trip to New Hampshire tonight with a fundraiser at a minor-league baseball game, the Democratic National Committee has released a online video taking a swing at the Republican governor’s handling of New Jersey’s economy.

The clip is modeled after an old-time newsreel — the kind that would have been shown in movie houses when Babe Ruth ruled the baseball diamond in the 1920s.

It notes that under Christie — a possible candidate for the Republican nomination for president in 2016 — New Jersey has among the highest property taxes and slowest job growth in the U.S.

“On his economic record, Chris Christie strikes out,” the video’s narrator says.

Bitter Mouse Posted: August 01, 2014 at 09:10 AM | 6359 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: new jersey, politics, video

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   6101. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 10:53 AM (#4781613)
Because if it's a goal---which I realize you don't share---to have policemen more closely connected to the communities where they patrol, then the issue of housing affordability is very relevant. A policeman's relationship to the community he's patrolling is a bit more critical to his work than that of a government lawyer or accountant.

But the areas where this might be a problem (generally minority, high crime areas) are plenty affordable. The fact is that cops, like most people making $50-100K, don't want to live in those neighborhoods.
   6102. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 10:53 AM (#4781614)
If he casually suggests that a blow job would get you out of a traffic ticket, it's not illegal, it's consensual sex between adults.


I am fairly certain it is illegal. I think it laughable that you are comparing that to "May I search your car, sir?".
   6103. BrianBrianson Posted: August 29, 2014 at 10:56 AM (#4781618)

So, you'll trade free speech and self-defence for no open container laws, and jaywalking. Good to know.


It's not really such a trade, since you don't have unrestricted free speech and self-defense in America, and there is a right to self-defence in Britain. The freedom of speech is slightly more restricted (although not nearly unrestricted in America either), which is not ideal. But it's disingenuous to pretend America is a land of unrestricted freedom while Britain is an island prison.
   6104. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 29, 2014 at 10:58 AM (#4781620)
So this right of yours doesn't really exist in today's world, right?


If I go home-invade my neighbor and tie him up in the closet, his rights cease to exist too.
   6105. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 29, 2014 at 10:59 AM (#4781622)
The fact is that cops, like most people making $50-100K, don't want to live in those neighborhoods.


And the fact is that cops, if they want to be given the right to state-sanctioned violence and detention of citizens, shouldn't get to choose.
   6106. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:00 AM (#4781623)
It's not really such a trade, since you don't have unrestricted free speech and self-defense in America, and there is a right to self-defence in Britain. The freedom of speech is slightly more restricted, which is not ideal. But it's disingeuous to pretend America is a land of unrestricted freedom while Britain is an island prison.

And, I'm not saying that. My only point is that strict gun control tends to go hand-in-hand with other restrictions on liberty that most Americans find intolerable.
   6107. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:00 AM (#4781625)
I think it laughable that you are comparing that to "May I search your car, sir?"


The point you elide every time is that it's not about "may I search your car?" It's about what happens after you have the audacity to say "no, officer, I don't comply with that request."
   6108. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:01 AM (#4781626)
And the fact is that cops, if they want to be given the right to state-sanctioned violence and detention of citizens, shouldn't get to choose.

OK, you just forfeited the right to call anyone a fascist again.

People shouldn't have to give up their basic civil liberties to hold a Gov't job.
   6109. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:06 AM (#4781632)
The point you elide every time is that it's not about "may I search your car?" It's about what happens after you have the audacity to say "no, officer, I don't comply with that request."


I don't elide it at all. I have said flat out that cops who do "bad stuff" after such a statement are in the wrong and should be punished. And when I did I was told emphatically that it is not bad stuff at all, just normal cop behavior that happens all the time and is never punished.

Which tells me you don't believe the rights you are claiming exist in the US today, which is too bad, because I think those rights do exist and need to be more forcefully cared for than they are.

People shouldn't have to give up their basic civil liberties to hold a Gov't job.


Like - oh just for example - freedom of expression.
   6110. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:07 AM (#4781633)
Well yeah. So based on a published Op-Ed we should fire someone (for representing a typical cop I am told, not for being unusual in any degree), and then go on to fire 95% of all police (leaving only the "good" ones behind I suppose). Well yes I strongly suspect police brutality would fall to an all time low at that point.
I doubt that it would actually take 95%. Just a majority; the rest would fall into line. (Do keep in mind that I would also be drastically reducing the police workload, since we could eliminate narcotics, vice, most of the ticky-tack nonsense that apparently funds the Ferguson government, etc. )
   6111. BrianBrianson Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:08 AM (#4781634)
And, I'm not saying that. My only point is that strict gun control tends to go hand-in-hand with other restrictions on liberty that most Americans find intolerable.


Sure, the restriction of one liberty is correlated with the restriction on other liberties, I have no doubt. But the gun control in Britain is not particularly important to why police don't need pistols to hand out tickets for littering. The total amount of liberty you have living in Britain is not significantly different from the total amount of liberty you have living in America, even if there are slightly different distributions.
   6112. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:12 AM (#4781637)
See this is what I mean. I have expressed dozens of times I disagree with cop dude, but support his right to express his opinion, and I get endless "you are taking his side". Can no one read for comprehension?


Everyone supports his right to express his opinion; no one's advocating that he be thrown in jail, just that he be relieved of his duties.

If he had written "I am always suspicious of black men so I tend to stop and frisk them even when they're minding their own business," would you still be supporting the notion that he not be fired?

   6113. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:13 AM (#4781639)
Because if it's a goal---which I realize you don't share---to have policemen more closely connected to the communities where they patrol, then the issue of housing affordability is very relevant. A policeman's relationship to the community he's patrolling is a bit more critical to his work than that of a government lawyer or accountant.


What is this, Mayberry R.F.D.?
   6114. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:13 AM (#4781640)
Like - oh just for example - freedom of expression.

I agree with you 99.99% of the time. He should be able to express any political or religious or social view he wants.

But, the 0.01% is when you say you don't and won't do your job in accordance with the laws and policies governing it.

He's not being fired for what he said. He's being fired because he admits he won't do his job.
   6115. The Good Face Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:16 AM (#4781643)
That's being held accountable for your speech. Those aren't the same things.

So being accountable means being fired for expressing an opinion about de facto legal activities within your sphere of knowledge? And you claim that would not have a chilling effect on free speech? OK then, I disagree. I think freedom of expression is a paramount civil right and needs to be vigilantly protected and even encouraged wherever possible.


Yes. Sam's definition of "free speech" is incoherent and fundamentally fascist in nature. Using Sam's definition, Russians under Stalin had full rights of free speech, they simply had to deal with the consequences if they chose to criticize Stalin. Similarly, slaves in pre-Civil War America had unimpeded free speech rights as well. They just had to accept that they'd be held accountable for any speech they engaged in.
   6116. The Good Face Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:19 AM (#4781647)
People shouldn't have to give up their basic civil liberties to hold a Gov't job.


Why not? People in the military do so already.
   6117. Mefisto Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:20 AM (#4781648)
I wish I could remember who took which position in the Brendan Eich case.
   6118. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:21 AM (#4781650)
If he had written "I am always suspicious of black men so I tend to stop and frisk them even when they're minding their own business," would you still be supporting the notion that he not be fired?


I think discipline would in order had he said that. If he said black men are often stopped and frisked by many cops I wouldn't. Hopefully he would say what he wanted clearly and unambiguously and wouldn't have a bunch of other writings that gave a more nuanced idea what he meant - because peering into someone's mind is pretty dicey.

He's not being fired for what he said. He's being fired because he admits he won't do his job.


According to most people here he talking about how the job is done by 95% of the police in the nation. I doubt 95% of the police in the nation are not doing their job or should be fired out of hand. I just don't think you can argue what he is saying is cop SOP and also say he should be fired for endorsing that SOP.
   6119. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:23 AM (#4781653)
Why not? People in the military do so already.

Only to the extent necessary. It's not necessary for police.
   6120. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:23 AM (#4781655)
According to most people here he talking about how the job is done by 95% of the police in the nation. I doubt 95% of the police in the nation are not doing their job or should be fired out of hand. I just don't think you can argue what he is saying is cop SOP and also say he should be fired for endorsing that SOP.

I don't necessarily agree with that view. I'm sure it's too often, but I'm pretty sure it's not 95%
   6121. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:24 AM (#4781656)
because peering into someone's mind is pretty dicey.


You keep talking about his "heart and mind" and "peering into his mind." Why? We have his words. We don't need to hire a mind reader.
   6122. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:27 AM (#4781661)
Because if it's a goal---which I realize you don't share---to have policemen more closely connected to the communities where they patrol, then the issue of housing affordability is very relevant. A policeman's relationship to the community he's patrolling is a bit more critical to his work than that of a government lawyer or accountant.

But the areas where this might be a problem (generally minority, high crime areas) are plenty affordable. The fact is that cops, like most people making $50-100K, don't want to live in those neighborhoods.


Here's a listing for a nice 3-bedroom apartment in Washington Heights---not midtown, not the Upper West Side, not Harlem---for $1,950 a month, maybe or maybe not including utilities. That's $23,400 a year. Now you tell me how a rookie NYPD cop earning $41,975 a year in base salary is going to afford that, at least if he's trying to support the model nuclear family that you're always preaching about. "Plenty affordable", my ###.

Of course not all cities are like New York, but then neither are all police salaries. And if the complaint is that we're not attracting the right sort of cop (and I'd agree with that thought), then whatever those salaries may be, they're apparently not high enough to attract the sort of cops we'd all like to get.
   6123. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:30 AM (#4781664)
Why? We have his words. We don't need to hire a mind reader.



Well because words are tricky. I think actions speak much louder than words and the bar for punishment based on those words needs to be much higher. Since a couple of us have different interpretations of what those words really mean I am not willing to punish him based on a best guess feeling on what he really meant and how that accords with his actions as a police officer.
   6124. BrianBrianson Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:31 AM (#4781666)
Frankly, legalizing and tax pot is probably enough reduction in work for cops and money for raises for cops to cover it without any need to reduce the overall number, except perhaps a bit of retirement attrition.
   6125. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:40 AM (#4781674)
Here's a listing for a nice 3-bedroom apartment in Washington Heights---not midtown, not the Upper West Side, not Harlem---for $1,950 a month, maybe or maybe not including utilities. That's $23,400 a year. Now you tell me how a rookie NYPD cop earning $41,975 a year in base salary is going to afford that, at least if he's trying to support the model nuclear family that you're always preaching about. "Plenty affordable", my ###.


But you can on $90K.

$42K is the entry level salary for cops who are generally in their early 20's. Share that apartment with 2 roommates, and you're golden. There are virtually no professions where you make more than that at 22, with no need for advanced education. In 5 years, when you're making $90K, and maybe have a wife and kids, get your own place

How many of us could afford a 3 BDR apartment at 22-25? I sure couldn't. My first job out of college, I lived with my parents. My first job out of B-School, I lived with 2 roommates. I got my first apartment at age 28, and it was a 1 BDR railroad flat, not a 3 BDR. And that was with an MA and an MBA.

   6126. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:40 AM (#4781675)
And by the way this is just stupid. If he asks and you comply it is not illegal. If he searches with a warrant or your OK it is illegal (there are other fiddly bits here also). Him wanting is not what makes the search legal or not and calling it "an illegal search" in this context is just plain dumb.

It is within his rights to ask and your rights to say no. And every cop I have ever spoken with is amazed more people don't say no and recommends people say no. But why let facts get in the way of your narrative.


And lo and behold we have a real world example of what happens when a citizen says no, right from your own backyard. That poor SOB in St Paul was tasered and arrested for refusing to show his papers. This is exactly what Dutta was talking about. Oh, he gave lip service to "you don't have to consent to an illegal search", but he then went on to say that if you feel your civil rights are being violated, it does no good to refuse. Just comply and file a complaint later. You called my hypothetical of a guy complaining about searching a bag stupid, but this is pretty much the exact same situation, with "Your papers please" standing in for "Show me what's in your bag."

So, St Paul dude takes Dutta's advice and complied (even though he knows it's a violation (and no mind reading here, he says just that to the cops in the video), and complains later. The complaint will play out exactly as i laid out. And then the next time he's waiting to pick up is kids, it happens again?

Dutta is saying "That's the way it is. that's how we operate. deal with it." And he was completely unapologetic about it.

   6127. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:45 AM (#4781679)
Dutta is saying "That's the way it is. that's how we operate. deal with it." And he was completely unapologetic about it.


And he is wrong and we should change the system. Of course with 600,000 cops in the US there is an endless supply of anecdotes and plenty of misconduct.

The fact there is misconduct means we need to act, but punishing Dutta for writing what he did is a terrible precedent. But I have no problem being outraged by what happened in St. Paul. and working to reduce such incidents in the future,
   6128. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:48 AM (#4781680)
But I have no problem being outraged by what happened in St. Paul. and working to reduce such incidents in the future,


A good start would be to can the member of the force who unapologetically said "That's the way it is. that's how we operate. deal with it." That's not punishment, that's "working to reduce such incidents in the future."
   6129. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 11:49 AM (#4781683)
The fact there is misconduct means we need to act, but punishing Dutta for writing what he did is a terrible precedent. But I have no problem being outraged by what happened in St. Paul. and working to reduce such incidents in the future,

You're not punishing him for writing what he did, you're punishing him for doing what he wrote. View it as a confession.

Maybe you don't even need to fire him. How about a 90-day suspension w/o pay?
   6130. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM (#4781687)
Look, tone matters. It goes to state of mind. Dutta could have gotten the same message across in a much different way, and I bet many if not all of use calling for his head would be silent. He could have said "Look, there's a major problem with how police and other citizens interact with each other. Cops have a hard job and frankly, most would like you to make it easier by just complying with whatever they say no questions asked. This is wrong, and we need to work together to change it. If you mouth off to a cop, things might not go well for you. While at the same time, we need to aggressively comedown hard on any police misconduct, and indeed begin to recognize what we has so far ignored as misconduct..." Something along those lines. It would show he recognizes the problem, and that the problem lies mostly with him and his coworkers. Instead, he says "If you don't do what I say, I will beat you." This shows he has no clue what the problem is. Indeed, if there is a problem, it's with us. OK, so he doesn't have a disciplinary record (as far as we know). That shows (at best), that he's merely one of those who thinks that uncalled for bullying is fine, even though he may not engage in it himself. That's a guy (and all others like him) who needs to be an ex-cop.
   6131. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:01 PM (#4781688)
A good start would be to can the member of the force who unapologetically said "That's the way it is. that's how we operate. deal with it." That's not punishment, that's "working to reduce such incidents in the future."


I disagree. Even if that is what he said (please let's not re-litigate that), I think that is a terrible way to start and is only going to cause an Us vs. Them mindset to further cement itself. That mentality is the number one problem with fixing things IMO and reinforcing it is the last thing you want to do.

You have to work with the police, changing the culture with the introduction of more cameras and other recording equipment, changed internal investigation procedures, and so on. You don't want to make this a war between reformers and cops, because right now cops are way more highly thought of in the general public than your typical civil rights reformer.

Making it reformers versus cops is a great way to fail and fail big. Working with police forces to improve things and provide the cops with video evidence which protects them from unwarranted complaints (and help protect everyone against police misconduct) is where you want to start.
   6132. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:05 PM (#4781695)
And in addition to that, you need to have a police force that not only resembles the community demographically, but that is drawn from the community itself. When a cop clocks out he or she should drive home, to a residence in the community she or he has been policing.
That may be fine for a place like St. Louis -- but that doesn't mean that a place like Ferguson can find a full police force from its residents.

The principle you espouse -- "Policing, if done right (or at least less completely ####### wrong) is a long term relationship building and community networking exercise." and "requiring that Officer McFriendly live two blocks down from the scene of the shooting and know that Mom walks her kids to church every Sunday on that street" -- is a valid one, and is the theory behind the "community policing" movement. But that doesn't necessarily mean cops live there off-duty; it means that they live there on-duty. (i.e., rather than hanging out in their station and responding to calls, but otherwise avoiding the neighborhoods.)
   6133. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:09 PM (#4781698)
but that doesn't mean that a place like Ferguson can find a full police force from its residents.


I strongly doubt you'd have a difficult time finding 50 people (the size of Ferguson PD) in the Ferguson population who would take 50K per year to police their neighborhood.
   6134. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:10 PM (#4781701)
But I have no problem being outraged by what happened in St. Paul. and working to reduce such incidents in the future,


A good start would be to can the member of the force who unapologetically said "That's the way it is. that's how we operate. deal with it." That's not punishment, that's "working to reduce such incidents in the future."

Obviously this isn't directed at you, but I wonder what our former defenders of cops like Joe Arpaio---who most definitely practices what he preaches---would think about firing him, not to mention making him face the legal consequences of his well publicized police state tactics. I also wonder what these people think about the way the recent surge of refugee children from Central America have been rushed through their "hearings" in assembly line fashion? Some of those border patrol cops make Ferguson's look like Boy Scouts by comparison.
   6135. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:11 PM (#4781703)
So would I. There a police officer would be advocating breaking the law and suggesting it was OK. A law enforcement officer can't publicly condone law breaking.
Then please stop the faux outrage over the idea of firing a cop for expressing an opinion. You don't have a problem with the principle -- just with firing him over this specific opinion, because you're reading it in the same way as Andy (sheesh, talk about a red flag).
   6136. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:13 PM (#4781706)
And in other news, the "Rape Culture" has finally been located, and the multi-culturalists are not going to be happy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11059138/Rotherham-In-the-face-of-such-evil-who-is-the-racist-now.html

Apparently 1400+ English girls were raped and otherwise exploited by a group of Pakistani Muslim men, targeted explicity because they were white and Christian, with the local authorities basically ignoring it, for fear of seeming "racist".

Similar incidents appear to have happened in other British towns.
   6137. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:16 PM (#4781709)
Then please stop the faux outrage over the idea of firing a cop for expressing an opinion.


An opinion on common and legal behaviors. See there is a difference between expressing "Hey go break the law" and expressing an opinion about de facto legal behavior. This is not exactly tough.

EDIT: Next you will be suggesting because I am a proponent of free speech I am all for people shouting "Fire" in a theater.
   6138. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:17 PM (#4781713)
The principle you espouse -- "Policing, if done right (or at least less completely ####### wrong) is a long term relationship building and community networking exercise." and "requiring that Officer McFriendly live two blocks down from the scene of the shooting and know that Mom walks her kids to church every Sunday on that street" -- is a valid one, and is the theory behind the "community policing" movement. But that doesn't necessarily mean cops live there off-duty; it means that they live there on-duty. (i.e., rather than hanging out in their station and responding to calls, but otherwise avoiding the neighborhoods.)

It's not one or the other. It's both. The vast majority of Ferguson residents would much rather be living on the same block as a policeman they grew up with, as opposed to being monitored by an out-of-town import who punches a clock and then leaves for the night.
   6139. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:19 PM (#4781717)
Apparently 1400+ English girls were raped and otherwise exploited by a group of Pakistani Muslim men, targeted explicity because they were white and Christian, with the local authorities basically ignoring it, for fear of seeming "racist".


That's a stupid decision by the authorities. They should no more ignore rape in the Muslim communities than they should ignore child rape in Catholic communities.
   6140. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:20 PM (#4781719)
And in other news, the "Rape Culture" has finally been located, and the multi-culturalists are not going to be happy.

Yes, because we're all secretly harboring fantasies of converting to Islam and getting one of their coveted Lifetime Free Rape passes. Sort of like those Free Child Molestation passes that the Vatican handed out.

EDIT: coke to Sam, and yes, of course I agree that this English case is a major scandal that needs to be fully outed and addressed.
   6141. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:22 PM (#4781720)
That's a stupid decision by the authorities. They should no more ignore rape in the Muslim communities than they should ignore child rape in Catholic communities.

Wow, you can't summon any outrage over this without taking a pot shot at the Catholic Church? Typical.

Yes, because we're all secretly harboring fantasies of converting to Islam and getting one of their coveted Lifetime Free Rape passes. Sort of like those Free Child Molestation passes that the Vatican handed out.

Same with you. Sad. No concerns at all over any evil, unless it's perpetrated by whites against non-whites.

Have a good Labor day, I can't tolerate any more of you today.
   6142. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:22 PM (#4781722)
You have to work with the police, changing the culture with the introduction of more cameras and other recording equipment, changed internal investigation procedures, and so on. You don't want to make this a war between reformers and cops, because right now cops are way more highly thought of in the general public than your typical civil rights reformer.


Your last point is valid. But your first is useless unless and until we change their mindset that "taser first sort it out later" is completely wrong. Body cams will be useless if it merely justifies their pre-conceived notions of what is acceptable use of force. I suspect the cops who tased St Paul dude were actually happy there was a recording of the incident. "Yep, dude was not cooperating and became belligerent. We have proof. Good job guys." Body cams will do #### all until the cops realize the proper way to have handled that situation is not to confront the guy peacefully sitting on a public bench, but to question the guy who called in the complaint, and upon learning it was nothing more than one guy's irrational fear of others, walk away and maybe chastise the guy for calling in a bogus complaint. They should have never even spoken to bench dude.
   6143. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:23 PM (#4781724)
David, given the notoriety of this op-ed piece and the passions that it's inflamed, and given the the author put his name and his LAPD affiliation right up front, it's almost literally impossible to believe that if he'd had even the slightest reputation of being a "bad" cop even by the broadest definition of the word, that there wouldn't be someone out there who'd want the world to know the "real" background of this Monster.
No, it's not literally impossible, figuratively impossible, or the least bit difficult. Because (for the zillion and tenth time, you miss the point, which is that) this is ordinarily policing, not being a "bad cop." There's no reason that he'd stand out in anybody's mind for doing this. Who would even know? Why would someone say, "Oh yeah, I remember in 2003 when I was standing on a street corner with my friends and a cop approached us and told us to disperse, and when I argued he shoved me to the ground, and it was this particular guy"? Again, I refer you to the St. Paul video from the previous page: no complaint filed, no lawsuit, no evening news story. The police report didn't mention anything unusual about the incident. If it didn't happen to be on video, we still wouldn't know.

Think about it: Is there a single public figure you can think of whose dirty laundry can't be found with a few clicks of the mouse?
Yeah: cops. (Who aren't really "public figures.") Their disciplinary records are routinely treated as confidential personnel matters, and that assumes that there was any disciplinary record at all, which there's no reason to think for an ordinary cop who didn’t shoot someone, arrest Henry Louis Gates, or the like.
Wouldn't you think that a "fascist" like Dutta would have left some sort of a trail of disgruntled citizens behind him after all this time, if he were really as much of a Monster as you're making him out to be?
There's this thing you do, where you say something, and I explain why it's a misunderstanding of what I'm saying, and then you just repeat it a dozen more times. And I explain a dozen more times why it's a misunderstanding of what I'm saying, but you repeat it some more. I am not saying he's a monster. I. Am. Not. Saying. That. He's. A. Monster. I. Am. Saying. That. He's. Average. Which is exactly why, no, I don't think there would be any sort of "trail" of "dirty laundry" out there to find. Of course there are people who will be upset over their encounters with him. Doesn't mean they'll even remember who he was, a month or a year later. He's just another random faceless cop who pushes people around.


   6144. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:25 PM (#4781726)
Wow, you can't summon any outrage over this without taking a pot shot at the Catholic Church?


You can't seem to generate outrage without accusing "the multi-culturalists" of being complicit in the scandal. Why should I extend to you and yours what you actively refuse for others, including "the multi-culturalists" like myself?

If all Muslims, inclusive of anyone who may have suggested that liberal democracy is best served by multi-cultural engagement of others, is complicit in these rapes then clearly you were in the room with Sandusky licking a 10 year old's sack.

Sad. No concerns at all over any evil, unless it's perpetrated by whites against non-whites.


Actually, the majority of children raped by your Church's officials, and then covered up and hidden by that same Church you defend without thinking, were white. But hey, keep spinning that ####, buddy. You didn't bring this up as a clean "holy #### this is terrible" talking point. You're not even offended by the rapes, per se. You're just happy to have a perceived talking point against "the multi-culturalists."
   6145. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:34 PM (#4781736)
That's a stupid decision by the authorities. They should no more ignore rape in the Muslim communities than they should ignore child rape in Catholic communities.


Wow, you can't summon any outrage over this without taking a pot shot at the Catholic Church? Typical.

Yes, because we're all secretly harboring fantasies of converting to Islam and getting one of their coveted Lifetime Free Rape passes. Sort of like those Free Child Molestation passes that the Vatican handed out.

EDIT: coke to Sam, and yes, of course I agree that this English case is a major scandal that needs to be fully outed and addressed.


Same with you. Sad. No concerns at all over any evil, unless it's perpetrated by whites against non-whites.


Wait, were all those victims of Bishop Buggering non-white?

Have a good Labor day, I can't tolerate any more of you today.

Maybe you and David can figure out a way to fire us. There's probably a passage that you can find to cover it somewhere in one of your Bibles.

   6146. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:34 PM (#4781737)
If all Muslims, inclusive of anyone who may have suggested that liberal democracy is best served by multi-cultural engagement of others, is complicit in these rapes then clearly you were in the room with Sandusky licking a 10 year old's sack.

Who said complicit? That's you projecting. Only the officials who ignored it are complicit, just like the officials who ignored the Priest scandal were complicit.

I'm just pointing out the blindness of the multi-culturalists to the reality of what we are importing into our countries.
   6147. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:35 PM (#4781739)
Why should I extend to you and yours what you actively refuse for others, including "the multi-culturalists" like myself?


Christian charity?
   6148. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:35 PM (#4781741)
It's bizarre, and also not true for most large cities. Yeah, maybe in Beverly Hills the cops can't afford to live there, but in NY, or LA or Chicago? There are tons of neighborhoods cops can afford.

But, like many of us, they'd rather live in the suburbs. Why should they be denied that basic civil right, to live where they choose?
A fivethirtyeight article with relevant information and data.
   6149. BrianBrianson Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:35 PM (#4781742)
targeted explicity because they were white and Christian,


Well, and brown and Hindu, and brown and Sikh, and (I haven't read all the papers, but the punchline is more or less not Muslim and not Pakistani)

There's definitely some element of passing the buck between social workers, police, and councillors for fear of being branded racist for raising alarms. Which is a huge problem. Some of it also reads like the usual "If you're poor, the police won't help you" song-and-dance; with even reported cases that were clear statutory rape not being follow-up and prosecuted.

And, snark aside, there's a larger point about law enforcement being #### at dealing with sexual assault. This is horrific, but it's a piece in an even more horrific puzzle of the Jimmy Saville crew, and yes, the Catholic church. It's an obvious target for snark, but using this mess to take a pot shot at the sometimes over the top rhetoric around rape culture is just as ####### unhelpful.

And now I'll also need a minute to calm myself out of the "News making me question whether it was a good idea to knock up my wife" despair.
   6150. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:42 PM (#4781745)
I'm just pointing out the blindness of the multi-culturalists to the reality of what we are importing into our countries.


So, after I go out and join the local Klan's militia making sure that no woman-raping Muslims come into the South, should I also make a point that our local chapter carry out similar defense of children against the northern Papists? Or is that a special case where you require special dispensation?
   6151. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:43 PM (#4781746)
the multi-culturalists are not going to be happy


No one should be happy, it is a tragedy.
   6152. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:47 PM (#4781750)
Your last point is valid. But your first is useless unless and until we change their mindset that "taser first sort it out later" is completely wrong. Body cams will be useless if it merely justifies their pre-conceived notions of what is acceptable use of force. I suspect the cops who tased St Paul dude were actually happy there was a recording of the incident. "Yep, dude was not cooperating and became belligerent. We have proof. Good job guys." Body cams will do #### all until the cops realize the proper way to have handled that situation is not to confront the guy peacefully sitting on a public bench, but to question the guy who called in the complaint, and upon learning it was nothing more than one guy's irrational fear of others, walk away and maybe chastise the guy for calling in a bogus complaint. They should have never even spoken to bench dude.
Exactly. (Except for the "chastise" part.) The reason Dutta is a problem is not because he's a "monster," but because he expressly validates this sort of cop thinking.
   6153. formerly dp Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:50 PM (#4781753)
No one should be happy, it is a tragedy.
Snapper sounds positively gleeful, from the tone of his post. Confirmation of his "Muslims are evil" worldview.
   6154. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:51 PM (#4781755)
Body cams will do #### all until the cops realize the proper way to have handled that situation is not to confront the guy peacefully sitting on a public bench, but to question the guy who called in the complaint, and upon learning it was nothing more than one guy's irrational fear of others, walk away and maybe chastise the guy for calling in a bogus complaint. They should have never even spoken to bench dude.


Good idea. Now go back and listen to the female cop who first approaches the guy sitting peaceably on a bench waiting to pick his kids up from daycare. Listen, specifically, to her answer to his question "why are you doing this to me?" Because what she says is the fundamental truth you refuse to look at.

"This is what cops do."
   6155. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:51 PM (#4781756)
David, given the notoriety of this op-ed piece and the passions that it's inflamed, and given the the author put his name and his LAPD affiliation right up front, it's almost literally impossible to believe that if he'd had even the slightest reputation of being a "bad" cop even by the broadest definition of the word, that there wouldn't be someone out there who'd want the world to know the "real" background of this Monster.

No, it's not literally impossible, figuratively impossible, or the least bit difficult. Because (for the zillion and tenth time, you miss the point, which is that) this is ordinarily policing, not being a "bad cop." There's no reason that he'd stand out in anybody's mind for doing this. Who would even know? Why would someone say, "Oh yeah, I remember in 2003 when I was standing on a street corner with my friends and a cop approached us and told us to disperse, and when I argued he shoved me to the ground, and it was this particular guy"? Again, I refer you to the St. Paul video from the previous page: no complaint filed, no lawsuit, no evening news story. The police report didn't mention anything unusual about the incident. If it didn't happen to be on video, we still wouldn't know.


I know if something like that had happened to me, I'd sure as hell remember the guy's face, which is easy to find, and I'm sure that you would, too. And if I saw a cop from my home town posting an article like that, I'd sure as hell look up his image and shout my experience from the rooftops. As. would. you.

Think about it: Is there a single public figure you can think of whose dirty laundry can't be found with a few clicks of the mouse?

Yeah: cops. (Who aren't really "public figures.") Their disciplinary records are routinely treated as confidential personnel matters, and that assumes that there was any disciplinary record at all, which there's no reason to think for an ordinary cop who didn’t shoot someone, arrest Henry Louis Gates, or the like.


You take a survey of the citizens of Ferguson, and see if they can't distinguish the "good" cops who treat them with respect, from the "bad" cops who don't. You don't need a formal paper trail to separate the sheep from the goats. Hell, when I was a street vendor in DC during the Bicentennial, there was an Officer Smith from the DC police's vending squad who was famous for patrolling aggressively and handing out $50.00 tickets if we were too close to the curb or if we opened our table two minutes early or two minutes after we were supposed to be shut down. He was also acting perfectly "legally", but you're crazy if you think that if he ever had written a Washington Post article defending his actions, a hundred vendors wouldn't have made his previous actions known. You're equally crazy to think that Dutta's past in the LAPD could remain unknown if he'd acted like our Officer Smith.
   6156. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:54 PM (#4781758)
Good idea. Now go back and listen to the female cop who first approaches the guy sitting peaceably on a bench waiting to pick his kids up from daycare. Listen, specifically, to her answer to his question "why are you doing this to me?" Because what she says is the fundamental truth you refuse to look at.

"This is what cops do."


Why is this directed at me?

   6157. BrianBrianson Posted: August 29, 2014 at 12:58 PM (#4781762)
And if I saw a cop from my home town posting an article like that, I'd sure as hell look up his image and shout my experience from the rooftops. As. would. you.


Honestly, I can't imagine I'd ever make public complaints like that about a cop. Anymore than I'd borrow Lady Gaga's meat dress and go swimming with Polar Bears.
   6158. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:00 PM (#4781765)
Honestly, I can't imagine I'd ever make public complaints like that about a cop. Anymore than I'd borrow Lady Gaga's meat dress and go swimming with Polar Bears.


No kidding. I mean, look at that article from a few pages back about what the cops did to one of their own for having the audacity to ticket an off duty cop for doing 120 MPH on the freeway.
   6159. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:00 PM (#4781766)
Why is this directed at me?

God knows why, but never in the history of BTF has there been a sub-thread that so completely blew up the usual categories into about 100 disparate parts. The next time anyone starts talking about "groupthink" I'm going to rub their noses in this discussion.
   6160. The Good Face Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:01 PM (#4781768)
And in other news, the "Rape Culture" has finally been located, and the multi-culturalists are not going to be happy.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/crime/11059138/Rotherham-In-the-face-of-such-evil-who-is-the-racist-now.html

Apparently 1400+ English girls were raped and otherwise exploited by a group of Pakistani Muslim men, targeted explicity because they were white and Christian, with the local authorities basically ignoring it, for fear of seeming "racist".

Similar incidents appear to have happened in other British towns.


Diversity is our strength!
   6161. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:02 PM (#4781772)
Why is this directed at me?


Sloppy misattribution om my part. My bad.
   6162. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:03 PM (#4781774)
Diversity is our strength!


The least surprising post in the last few pages. Anyone else besides snapper and TGF want to cheer mass rape? Joe? Bear? Bueller?
   6163. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:05 PM (#4781776)
Did you say sloppy masterbation? Cause I'm on board with that.
   6164. The Good Face Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:12 PM (#4781785)
The least surprising post in the last few pages. Anyone else besides snapper and TGF want to cheer mass rape? Joe? Bear? Bueller?


Who's cheering it? This is the fault of YOU and people who share your ideological preferences. Me and mine wouldn't have wanted those immigrants in the country in the first place, and certainly wouldn't have covered up any rapes they committed because we didn't want to appear "racist". You and your fellow lefties own this. The least you could do is pretend to feel bad about it.
   6165. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:14 PM (#4781786)
And if I saw a cop from my home town posting an article like that, I'd sure as hell look up his image and shout my experience from the rooftops. As. would. you.

Honestly, I can't imagine I'd ever make public complaints like that about a cop.


Not saying that everyone would, but "not everyone" doesn't mean "not anyone". I once got pulled over by a DC cop at 14th & U (back then 99.99% black) while waiting for a black friend who was running inside a carryout sandwich shop. The cop was white, and since I'm white, he started asking me what I was doing in "this neighborhood". When I pointed at my pool cue and noted that there were two pool rooms in the next block, he told me to turn off my engine and come into his squad car. When his partner searched for drugs in my car and couldn't find any (I was lucky he didn't try planting them), he then wrote me out a parking ticket for parking in a no-parking zone, though he'd just told me five minutes earlier to park in that very same spot.

When I then complained, he said, and I can remember his exact words over 45 years later, "Just consider this the first installment of the rent you're going to have to pay, every time I see you around here again." Not that that stopped me from playing pool in the area, but his intentions were clear and not exactly friendly.

So what did I do? I went to the local ACLU office and spoke directly with some bozo named Ralph Temple, who was then the local head of the DC chapter. I told him just what I wrote above.

And what did he say? Again verbatim: "What's someone with a Duke education doing hanging out in pool rooms?" He refused to speak any further, and had no interest in helping me file a complaint.

So fuck the ACLU and fuck cops who act like that. But don't think that people don't remember when "routine" things like that happen to them.
   6166. BDC Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:17 PM (#4781789)
I'm just pointing out the blindness of the multi-culturalists to the reality of what we are importing into our countries

Time-travel 125 years back, replace "Muslim" with "Italian" or "Chinese" or "Jewish," and then listen to yourself. For the love of Mike.

There are thugs and sadists in all cultures. They should be brought to justice as individuals. If authorities turned a blind eye to these thugs & sadists, they're no better than the villains. End of story.
   6167. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:20 PM (#4781793)
You and your fellow lefties own this.


I'll add you to the list of people raping children.
   6168. The Good Face Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:32 PM (#4781802)
You and your fellow lefties own this.

I'll add you to the list of people raping children.


The truth hurts, eh? You liberals created that mess in Britain. You brought in the immigrants. You ran the local government. You created the incentive structure that turned being "racist" into the worst thing in the world, such that the mere risk of being accused of racism was enough to make that government cover up thousands of rapes spanning a decade. Your ideology.
   6169. BrianBrianson Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:34 PM (#4781806)
They should be brought to justice as individuals.


Yes.

But it's also worth putting on your pinko feminist hippie cap and say "Hey, when individuals act alone, we should address them alone. When they act as gangs, we have to ask about the culture this is developing in." And it certainly ain't Pakistanis are all rapists and there are none among the white folks. Prosecute every member of the rape gangs, and let 'em rot in prison. But they're also worth nipping in the bud before they start, whether they're Pakistani Muslim rape gangs, or Catholic Priest rape gangs, or BBC children's show producers rape gangs.
   6170. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:35 PM (#4781809)
So #### the ACLU and #### cops who act like that. But don't think that people don't remember when "routine" things like that happen to them.
I wasn't suggesting that people wouldn't remember the incident. I was suggesting that people wouldn't remember the identity of the cop.

And by the way, doesn't your response from the ACLU tell you something: that these things are so routine as not to be worth noting?
   6171. Lassus Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:36 PM (#4781811)
I'll cop to us lefties being responsible for people like Good Face existing, sure. Hard to see that as a natural, consciously independent occurrence.
   6172. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:38 PM (#4781814)
BBC children's show producers rape gangs.


That's a nice UK specific call out.
   6173. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:40 PM (#4781815)
The truth hurts, eh? You liberals created that mess in Britain. You brought in the immigrants.


Your basic problem is that the "immigrants" here are raping women before you and your "neoreactionaries" can get around to them, and you don't want sloppy seconds.
   6174. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:43 PM (#4781820)
#6166 is brilliant. Concise and well said.

   6175. CrosbyBird Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:47 PM (#4781825)
Is this true? Last I checked, all NYC employees were required to live within the city limits. Not sure if that applies to cops or not, but it definitely applies to City Parks employees.

Definitely not a requirement. One of my closest friends is a NYC transit cop, and he lives in Lynbrook (Nassau County).
   6176. The Good Face Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:48 PM (#4781827)
Your basic problem is that the "immigrants" here are raping women before you and your "neoreactionaries" can get around to them, and you don't want sloppy seconds.


Blaming the messenger isn't going to unrape all those girls Sam. I'm sure it's comforting to imagine that they all would have been raped anyway at some point, because FOX NEWS or something, but in the real world, those rapes, and the subsequent cover ups, were the direct result of liberalism. You guys created a world where being accused of racism was worse than covering up thousands of rapes. Grats.
   6177. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:51 PM (#4781830)
You guys created a world where being accused of racism was worse than covering up thousands of rapes.


This is dumb. First of all shouldn't you be blaming the Cathedral? Secondly blaming every bad thing that ever happens on liberalism (even when the actual crime is committed by people no one would describe as liberal) is ridiculous. I know it is crazy but maybe you should blame the people who committed the crime for committing the crime.
   6178. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:52 PM (#4781831)
You created the incentive structure that turned being "racist" into the worst thing in the world, such that the mere risk of being accused of racism was enough to make that government cover up thousands of rapes spanning a decade. Your ideology.


Do we know if the British cops that didn't take the accusations from the girls seriously, are "liberals"?

Aren't most cops "conservative"? Wouldn't about 99% of the blame be on the cops for not pursuing the complaints when they were made by the girls, or investigating why so many girls would be making "false" claims (if they still didn't believe the individuals)?
   6179. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:57 PM (#4781835)
Wouldn't about 99% of the blame be on the cops for not pursuing the complaints when they were made by the girls, or investigating why so many girls would be making "false" claims (if they still didn't believe the individuals)?


They were too busy giving them advice about not drinking too much and wearing racy clothing.
   6180. CrosbyBird Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:58 PM (#4781837)
So being accountable means being fired for expressing an opinion about de facto legal activities within your sphere of knowledge?

I don't think Dutta should be fired. I do think he should be reprimanded.

His op-ed is, at best, in extremely poor taste given the political climate at the time. Even if it is perfectly true and does not represent the least bit of threat, it is highly provocative coming on the heels of a serious public debate about police abuse of power and militarization.

When you speak out as a member of a profession, you cannot help but represent the profession as a whole, and I think it is a very job-related and punishable offense to represent the profession in such a way that many people are going to (not likely to, not maybe, but WILL view) as justifying physical force on the part of the police for mere backtalk. It is a PR nightmare and Dutta should be held responsible for that whether you agree or disagree with the words themselves.

It is not punishing Dutta for expressing an opinion. It is punishing Dutta for poorly representing his fellow employees and employer policy.
   6181. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: August 29, 2014 at 01:59 PM (#4781838)
Anyway, there's no doubt that TGF and to a lesser extent snapper are positively gleeful about this. That alone is enough to make it clear they deserve no more engagement on this topic.
   6182. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 02:04 PM (#4781842)
#6180 is the most reasonable statement yet on the Anti side, and one I could live with (though I still don't think it serves much purpose to punish him).
   6183. Brian Posted: August 29, 2014 at 02:06 PM (#4781843)
The woman who presided over the last five years of failure as the boss of children’s services at Rotherham Council is the same executive who removed three children from their foster parents because they were Ukip voters.

These are your peeps, Sammy.
   6184. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: August 29, 2014 at 02:11 PM (#4781845)
The woman who presided over the last five years of failure as the boss of children’s services at Rotherham Council is the same executive who removed three children from their foster parents because they were Ukip voters.

These are your peeps, Sammy.


So, we're back to snapper supports child rape because he's a practicing Catholic?
   6185. CrosbyBird Posted: August 29, 2014 at 02:15 PM (#4781853)
Here's a listing for a nice 3-bedroom apartment in Washington Heights---not midtown, not the Upper West Side, not Harlem---for $1,950 a month, maybe or maybe not including utilities. That's $23,400 a year. Now you tell me how a rookie NYPD cop earning $41,975 a year in base salary is going to afford that, at least if he's trying to support the model nuclear family that you're always preaching about. "Plenty affordable", my ###.

Who lives in a 3-bedroom apartment on a single entry-level salary? Talk about ridiculous expectations.
   6186. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 02:15 PM (#4781854)
Why should I extend to you and yours what you actively refuse for others, including "the multi-culturalists" like myself?

Christian charity?


You must not be the right kind of Christian.
   6187. The Good Face Posted: August 29, 2014 at 02:17 PM (#4781858)
Secondly blaming every bad thing that ever happens on liberalism (even when the actual crime is committed by people no one would describe as liberal) is ridiculous. I know it is crazy but maybe you should blame the people who committed the crime for committing the crime.


I'm blaming the appropriate parties. The rapes in question were committed by Pakistani immigrants and their children, who were in the UK because of the efforts of liberal politicians. The rapes were covered up by liberals in the local government (the town in question is a Labor stronghold).

Anyway, there's no doubt that TGF and to a lesser extent snapper are positively gleeful about this. That alone is enough to make it clear they deserve no more engagement on this topic.


Gleeful? No, hopeful. The rapes and the coverups are now in the past (I hope). They're sunk costs. But being the optimist I am, I'm hopeful something useful might emerge from this sordid episode. That maybe, just maybe, some liberals would look in the mirror and say, "Holy ####, we ###### up. We need to seriously rethink some #### so this kind of thing doesn't happen again." It seems I'm doomed to be disappointed yet again. Such is the lot of an optimist in this world.
   6188. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 29, 2014 at 02:23 PM (#4781865)
No one should be happy, it is a tragedy.

Snapper sounds positively gleeful, from the tone of his post. Confirmation of his "Muslims are evil" worldview.


I recall he blames the decades-long Papist rape ring on the pernicious influence of liberalism in the Holy See. I wonder what he blames this particular act of religious perversion on?
   6189. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 02:24 PM (#4781867)

I'm blaming the appropriate parties. The rapes in question were committed by Pakistani immigrants and their children, who were in the UK because of the efforts of liberal politicians. The rapes were covered up by liberals in the local government (the town in question is a Labor stronghold).


No you aren't you are using tragedy to try to score cheap points, just like those that try to score points off of snapper. Pleh.

Criminals acted and should be punished. If people (Authorities) were negligent then they should pay. However every consequence of every act of every liberal does not fall onto me any more than every act of every monarchist or authoritarian falls on you. The causal chain of liberals are for immigration, and some immigrants did something bad, therefor it is the liberals fault is weak and pathetic.
   6190. CrosbyBird Posted: August 29, 2014 at 02:29 PM (#4781873)
I wish I could remember who took which position in the Brendan Eich case.

I think that is an entirely different situation. Eich was called out for a small private political donation he had made six years prior to his appointment as CEO. That was practically thoughtcrime. I know he resigned, but he was essentially forced out.

Eich's duties as CEO have practically nothing* to do with his beliefs on marriage equality. Dutta's beliefs on the appropriate use of force are completely within the scope of his job performance.

*Were Eich the CEO and public face of a marriage equality organization, as opposed to a tech company, I could see him needing to step down for PR reasons. Similarly, I don't think the Food Network should have fired Paula Deen (even though they certainly should have the right to). This is an area where I think the left is profoundly anti-speech in this country.
   6191. Mefisto Posted: August 29, 2014 at 02:35 PM (#4781880)
Eich's duties as CEO have practically nothing* to do with his beliefs on marriage equality.


Isn't that up to the employer to decide?
   6192. The Good Face Posted: August 29, 2014 at 02:48 PM (#4781894)
No you aren't you are using tragedy to try to score cheap points,


I think both preventing rapes AND preventing liberal politicians from covering those rapes up is more important than protecting the brand of team blue. You apparently think otherwise, and that's sad, but hardly unexpected.

Criminals acted and should be punished.


Agreed.

If people (Authorities) were negligent then they should pay.


Ah, you've already started with the weasel words. The authorities were not "negligent". They willfully engaged in a coverup of thousands of rapes over approximately a decade.

However every consequence of every act of every liberal does not fall onto me any more than every act of every monarchist or authoritarian falls on you.


Of course not, but that's not the claim I've made. If a guy who happens to be a liberal murders somebody, that doesn't make you a murderer. However, if an institution engages in behaviors created, advanced and incentivized by liberal ideology and the end result is a population of rapey foreigners whose rapes are covered up by that institution in contravention of law and all societally accepted notions of decency, then it is fair to indict that ideology and the people who advance it.

In short, these rapes were caused by, and covered up because of, liberal ideology. The belief that being accused of "racism" was worse than covering up thousands of rapes over a decade is part and parcel of that. As an advocate of that ideology, you have some soul searching to do.

The causal chain of liberals are for immigration, and some immigrants did something bad, therefor it is the liberals fault is weak and pathetic.


The rapes in question were committed by Pakistani immigrants. That's not in question. Those immigrants are only there at the behest of liberals; conservatives in the UK have been fighting against immigration (without avail) for decades. If those immigrants weren't there to rape those girls, this whole scandal ceases to exist.
   6193. Lassus Posted: August 29, 2014 at 02:52 PM (#4781902)
Oy.
   6194. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 02:53 PM (#4781904)
Ah, you've already started with the weasel words. The authorities were not "negligent". They willfully engaged in a coverup of thousands of rapes over approximately a decade.


You might be willing to convict a whole raft of people based on media reports, but I am not. But then I am not in this to score cheap points like you are.
   6195. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 02:59 PM (#4781912)
I think both preventing rapes AND preventing liberal politicians from covering those rapes up is more important than protecting the brand of team blue. You apparently think otherwise, and that's sad, but hardly unexpected.


Political Science note for you, the fortunes of UK politicians don't really impact the fortunes of US politicians. The idea that I would go out of my way to protect politicians on another continent only loosely allied with my political party is farcical. Look I get that you think there is some sort of uber-conspiracy among liberals or something, but honestly join reality. Just because you (and seemingly snapper) want to link these people with US liberals doesn't make it so.
   6196. Morty Causa Posted: August 29, 2014 at 03:01 PM (#4781913)
Time-travel 125 years back, replace "Muslim" with "Italian" or "Chinese" or "Jewish," and then listen to yourself. For the love of Mike.

Well, first, in snapper’s link it’s clear that the “Muslim” received extra deference because of fears of accusations of racial animus. They weren’t being discriminated against like those other groups 125 years ago. So, that’s different. And that deference is most definitely related to liberal PC attitudes. Not that there isn’t un-PC intolerance that is also expressed. It’s a complex thing, our existential condition.

You could either replace it with animus toward Repubicans/tea-partiers/wingnuts/rednecks/cops (oh, yes); or the opposite: libruls/feminazis/nappy-headed ‘ho’s.

But expressing it in that simple-minded way like you do works to obfuscate the problem a light is being shone on: I don’t think 125 years ago the dominant culture was exhorted to a great extent that it should walk on eggs when ascribing ill motives and bad behavior to Italians, Chinese, or Jewish (and a whole host of other ethnic types, as well as the main racial one). BUT: we are now. The culture has being thoroughly domesticated or fragmented (or emasculated, if you prefer). A point worth noting is that there is one mainstream cultural strain that sees expression in an admonition that the dominant group (and that can be constituted of different sub-groups at any one time) should be very careful in judging the behavior of lesser groups (which also vary from situation to situation). And, the further point being, as that episode in England highlights, is that there is a down side to being so very careful from this viewpoint. The tension in that dynamic that has to be negotiated is ultimately not resolvable. You can’t get away from it: there is no solution that will do justice to all. There is injustice and unfairness to someone and some group coming and going. That should mean that it is important, then, how we go about establishing justice relatively. And that way should always be on trial and open to revision—because change is the rule.

There are thugs and sadists in all cultures. They should be brought to justice as individuals. If authorities turned a blind eye to these thugs & sadists, they're no better than the villains. End of story.

Why the incurious attitude suddenly? How does characterizing people as thugs and sadists get us anywhere? How about possessed by devils? Or born evil?

People act like thugs and sadists for reasons. And, wonder of wonders, often those reasons have to do with inculcated belief and value systems, of which one system takes the form of being expressed through religion and associated sub-beliefs. It’s worth examining those reasons, and we shouldn’t just blow ‘em off with a “nothing to see here, move along” gambit because in the past it was the same except as to different types. The bottom line is: what’s true and what’s fair and how do you determine that and put solutions along those lines into practice.
   6197. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 03:05 PM (#4781916)
The culture has being thoroughly domesticated or fragmented (or emasculated, if you prefer).


I imagine you think this is the real problem? And if it had not been there would have been no rapes, because we all know in real he-man cultures rape is non-existent.
   6198. The Good Face Posted: August 29, 2014 at 03:07 PM (#4781919)
You might be willing to convict a whole raft of people based on media reports, but I am not. But then I am not in this to score cheap points like you are.


No, you're in it to protect your tribe from having points scored on them. You're playing defense here, there's no points for you to score. And you're so devoted to the cause that you're defending gang rapists, the authorities who covered up their rapes, and the ideology that caused it. Grats?

Political Science note for you, the fortunes of UK politicians don't really impact the fortunes of US politicians. The idea that I would go out of my way to protect politicians on another continent only loosely allied with my political party is farcical. Look I get that you think there is some sort of uber-conspiracy among liberals or something, but honestly join reality. Just because you (and seemingly snapper) want to link these people with US liberals doesn't make it so.


You're spinning for your ideology, not for any particular politician. I'm pointing out that your ideology is toxic, that it leads to horrifying results just like this one.
   6199. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2014 at 03:14 PM (#4781924)
You're spinning for your ideology, not for any particular politician. I'm pointing out that your ideology is toxic, that it leads to horrifying results just like this one.


Nonsense, and transparent nonsense at that. Team Blue is not an ideology and that is what you claimed I was defending. But keep changing your story, those cheap points are not going to score themselves after all, and there are only so many tragedies to use.
   6200. Lassus Posted: August 29, 2014 at 03:20 PM (#4781928)
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