Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Friday, June 07, 2019

OT Soccer Thread - Baldrick Reports Live

Sum-sum-summertime thread.

June 7 (that’s today!) - Women’s World Cup.  BTF correspondent Baldrick is on the scene (link takes you to his preview of the tournament)
June 14 - Copa America begins (no Neymar)
June 15 - Gold Cup begins
June 18 - US first Gold Cup game
June 21 - Africa Cup of Nations begins
July 7 - Women’s World Cup Final/Copa America Final/Gold Cup Final - Can we get some discussion about the ridiculousness of the WWC being just one of a series of finals on the same day? Of note is that the Copa America final is the exact same time as the WWC final. 
July 19 - Africa Cup of Nations final

Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: June 07, 2019 at 12:22 PM | 1414 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, soccer

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 2 of 15 pages  < 1 2 3 4 >  Last ›
   101. bunyon Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:17 PM (#5850059)
Argentina/Japan on a broadcast channel here. I saw it on at a few resto bars on the walk to my apartment.
   102. bunyon Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:39 PM (#5850103)
Baldrick, they’re showing a lot of Argentine fans. How many were there really?
   103. Baldrick Posted: June 10, 2019 at 12:55 PM (#5850115)
Pretty decent number, actually. Not in the thousands, but probably in the high hundreds?

Seems to be a lot of people speaking French wearing Argentina shirts. Don't know if that's just...people who really like Messi? People with Argentinian backgrounds? I dunno.

The stadium as a whole seemed pretty even at the start, but the longer it stays 0-0 the more they're getting on Argentina's side.
   104. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: June 10, 2019 at 01:08 PM (#5850131)
How much of this is Argentina doing well and Japan playing poorly?
   105. bunyon Posted: June 10, 2019 at 01:51 PM (#5850162)
Woohoo!
   106. Baldrick Posted: June 10, 2019 at 02:04 PM (#5850169)
THAT WAS AMAZING
   107. Baldrick Posted: June 10, 2019 at 02:06 PM (#5850171)
How much of this is Argentina doing well and Japan playing poorly?

A fair bit of both, but this is one where I want to give more of the credit to Argentina, who played about as well as I think it's possible for them to play. Lorena Benitez had one of the performances of the tournament at defensive mid. She was everywhere.

But Japan should be better than this, and if they'd played to their potential, they'd have won no matter what Argentina did.
   108. bunyon Posted: June 10, 2019 at 02:08 PM (#5850172)
One of the players basically said just that after the game.
   109. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 10, 2019 at 02:46 PM (#5850196)
MCoA had it as 0.3 to 0.5 for Japan. That's a shockingly poor offensive performance by Japan considering the competition, and seems about right based on the last 30 minutes (only part I watched).
   110. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: June 11, 2019 at 03:17 PM (#5850645)
I’m not sure what to read into this. The US is just light years better than Thailand but they do look really good to my eyes. Mewis seems to be very good so far in particular but it does feel like the US can score at will here.
   111. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: June 11, 2019 at 03:20 PM (#5850647)
That tackle by O'Hara was a thing of beauty.
   112. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: June 11, 2019 at 03:23 PM (#5850649)
If this is anything less than 6-0 I'll be surprised.
   113. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: June 11, 2019 at 03:31 PM (#5850654)
Ok, maybe only 5-0 because the refs will refuse to call any penalties due to the mismatch.

Or fouls, for that matter.
   114. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: June 11, 2019 at 03:50 PM (#5850661)
I know it doesn't matter and no one will care but those were two stone cold penalties. I find it hilarious they didn't get it right even with VAR.
   115. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: June 11, 2019 at 03:56 PM (#5850664)
I thought the second one was a no brainer. I’m not sold on the first one though. Mewis has got 6 inches and 30 pounds on the other girl and she went down like a sack of potatoes, I felt like she sold it.
   116. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: June 11, 2019 at 03:57 PM (#5850666)
Which isn’t to say VAR and all replay is anything but a blight on humanity.
   117. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: June 11, 2019 at 04:06 PM (#5850668)
I feel like there were a solid three penalties that could have been called. I can also understand why, on a human level, they weren't.
   118. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: June 11, 2019 at 04:13 PM (#5850676)
LOL, what a massacre.
   119. aberg Posted: June 11, 2019 at 04:15 PM (#5850679)
Oh my god, I feel bad for Thailand. They're so incredibly bad. The goalie has an amazing combination of terrible positioning and terrible reaction time. The back line seems content to just be in the general vicinity of the attackers and not do anything to try to slow them down.
   120. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: June 11, 2019 at 04:16 PM (#5850681)
Yeah, like I’m happy for the US but come on, this isn’t remotely competitive. At the very least the US should be in “don’t celebrate” territory.
   121. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: June 11, 2019 at 04:19 PM (#5850684)
How did this team hold France to 3-0?
   122. JJ1986 Posted: June 11, 2019 at 04:43 PM (#5850704)
This is the worst soccer game I've ever seen. The celebration when they went up 9-0 was excessive.
   123. aberg Posted: June 11, 2019 at 04:48 PM (#5850707)
Forget celebrating, why is USA doing anything other than passing the ball around the midfield at this point?
   124. aberg Posted: June 11, 2019 at 04:51 PM (#5850708)
The most blatant display of imperalistic American exceptionalism since the Mission Accomplished banner?
   125. KronicFatigue Posted: June 11, 2019 at 04:51 PM (#5850709)
Funny. I wasn't getting too upset by the scoring (just mildly upset), but I got really annoyed when I saw the celebrating. Glad most of you are in agreement that that's jsut wrong.
   126. KronicFatigue Posted: June 11, 2019 at 05:02 PM (#5850713)
How did this team hold France to 3-0?


Maybe the French had class
   127. Scott Lange Posted: June 11, 2019 at 05:16 PM (#5850720)
The scoring is justified for me - goal differential counts, so you've gotta try. But I don't get the celebrating at all. Like, you should restrain yourself when you're up by 5 or 6 (much less 13), but even more so, why do they even feel like celebrating at that point? Who feels exultant on the 13th goal of a game?
   128. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 11, 2019 at 05:36 PM (#5850723)
To be fair, the 13th goal was by veteran in her last world cup Carli Lloyd. She may not play again so it's kind of a get one for the Gipper type of situation and I can see why that's a special moment.
   129. Baldrick Posted: June 11, 2019 at 06:42 PM (#5850739)
   130. aberg Posted: June 11, 2019 at 06:52 PM (#5850742)
goal differential counts


One of my friends texted me this same thought. Does it matter beyond being a tiebreaker to get out of the group? If that's the case, what are the chances that goals 7+ will have any impact (like you said)?

I get the part about the vets scoring (Rapinoe probably won't have a ton more WC goals either). My prevailing thought is that if this Thailand team is good enough to make a field of 32, then maybe the field shouldn't be 32.
   131. Baldrick Posted: June 11, 2019 at 07:16 PM (#5850748)
If that's the case, what are the chances that goals 7+ will have any impact

0.0000000000000000000000000000000%

And then consider that winning this particular group isn't even that great!

But on the other point, Lloyd will probably be a late sub in just about every game. Rapinoe is in the form of her life these days. They're going to score other goals. Make of that whatever you will, but it's not like this was the only chance for them.
   132. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 11, 2019 at 09:10 PM (#5850775)
I'm watching the Chicago Fire losing to St Louis FC in the US Open Cup. It's being played on the football field of Lindenwood University in St Charles, MO, which is artificial turf that has different shades of green that alternate every ten yards. It also has markings for lacrosse, and some sort of colored box up and down the sidelines, that I think might have something to do with the football coaching area. The football goalposts are hanging over the goals. A St Louis player just shanked a cross and, in the words of the announcer, converted a field goal. It's an absolute mess to watch; I have no idea where the touch lines are.
   133. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 11, 2019 at 09:16 PM (#5850778)
There's also a rail in front of the camera, so when the ball goes into one of the near corners it sometimes disappears behind a metal bar.
   134. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: June 11, 2019 at 09:36 PM (#5850784)
I have no problem with scoring at will. As noted goal differential counts and based on what we saw the Swedes could do the same thing so pour it on,

But geez, show some class. This isn’t a destruction of an evenly matched foe, this game had all the competitiveness of a Harlem Globetrotters game. For me the celebrations by people like Rapinoe and Lloyd were particularly galling. Someone like Pugh can be forgiven on his first World Cup goal being a bit excited but Jesus Christ Rapinoe and Lloyd and Morgan...come on.
   135. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 11, 2019 at 09:53 PM (#5850788)
Winning the goal differential (really only relevant if the US and Sweden draw) is not likely to be a benefit. The group winner is likely to play Spain/China and then France. The loser is likely to face Canada and then Germany.

Can't really ask players not to score though.
If the men's world cup expands to 48, might have games like this. It's not that the 32nd best team women's team in the world (or 48th best men's team) is this bad, it's that they will expand into regions where they end up selecting a team closer to 80th best in the world.
   136. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:15 PM (#5850806)
Next team in CAF (loser of third place match) is Mali, with an ELO 71st in the world. Supposedly a lot worse than Thailand. Then (if they took 2 or more CAF teams) it would have been Ghana or Zambia, who aren't much better.

Next team in AFC would have been the Philippines (69th in the world). Then it would have been Jordan or Vietnam. Those two teams finished winless in their final group stage (separate groups) of the AFC playoffs, with GD of -13 and -16 respectively. To give a sense of perspective on that, Thailand finished with 2 wins out of 3 games and a +3 GD in Vietnam's group, beating both the Philippines and Jordan.

Next up would be the Conmebol/Concacaf playoff loser, Panama. Lost 4-1 to Argentina in the playoff. Then one of Paraguay/Venezuela/Mexico/Costa Rica. One of those 4 would probably be better than all those listed above, actually.

If there could be a second team out of OFC it would have been the mighty island of Fiji, ELO 70th. Came within a hair's breadth of snatching the OFC spot from New Zealand, pipped at 8-0 in the OFC final.

And yes, of course there'd be two or three teams from UEFA. Switzerland, Belgium and maybe Denmark. But what's the point? It would just make it even harder for the smaller countries to advance to the round of 16.
   137. frannyzoo Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:43 PM (#5850815)
Thank you Baldrick for your thoughts linked in #129. You sum up well the "make the rubble bounce" mentality against Thailand and I'm sorry you had to sit/watch that in person. Sure, it gives everyone a team to root against, people living in the U.S. included, but it's still a shame.
   138. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: June 11, 2019 at 11:53 PM (#5850817)
Fernigal - that sounds amazing. I assume you are in St. Louis and I get that St. Louis FC isn’t an MLS club but they don’t have a better field than that to play on?
   139. Textbook Editor Posted: June 12, 2019 at 12:41 AM (#5850820)
But geez, show some class. This isn’t a destruction of an evenly matched foe, this game had all the competitiveness of a Harlem Globetrotters game. For me the celebrations by people like Rapinoe and Lloyd were particularly galling. Someone like Pugh can be forgiven on his first World Cup goal being a bit excited but Jesus Christ Rapinoe and Lloyd and Morgan...come on.


Yeah, this. And Baldrick's take in 129 is spot on as well. I don't care about the number of goals scored in the least. It's the manner of the celebrations that really bothered me (especially once the game got to 6-0 or 7-0).

I know it's the Confederations Cup (2013) and not the World Cup but... Compare the goal celebrations in Spain 10 - Tahiti 0 to the ones you saw today (especially the celebrations after it got to, say, 6-0). Here's the YouTube of the highlights.

It's night and day compared to the USA women today. Again, I get it's the World Cup and not the Confederations Cup... but Thailand is a team USA should beat every day and Sunday and maybe even if USA was down 3 players. To celebrate the way they did for goals 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13... I mean it basically put a target on every USA player's back from now until they're out, and they firmly wear the black hat now the rest of the tournament.

Now, maybe that was the goal of the coach. If so, it seems an awfully strange goal. I get the USA coach doesn't have to care how neutrals perceive them, but I'm with Baldrick. It was distasteful. Were I a neutral, I'd certainly be rooting now for USA to get their asses handed to them in the knockout stages.
   140. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 12, 2019 at 01:03 AM (#5850821)
I thought the GD was just a talking point by the coach. But no, it's being repeated everywhere. That's quite disappointing.
   141. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: June 12, 2019 at 01:03 AM (#5850822)
I mean it basically put a target on every USA player's back


Yep. Over here in Sydney, the U.S. team is copping a lot of flack. Not from the scoreline, but from the celebrations. Doesn't matter if you win or lose, just do it with class.
Whoever the U.S. team is playing is now everyone else's 2nd favourite team.

And whoever compared Germany's pasting of Brazil, 7-1, to this is the biggest a-hole of them all. That was a semi, in Brazil no less, against an opponent ranked in the top 4. You do that in those circumstances, you've earned the right to celebrate.

This was just crass.
   142. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 12, 2019 at 01:41 AM (#5850825)
Oh my god, I feel bad for Thailand. They're so incredibly bad. The goalie has an amazing combination of terrible positioning and terrible reaction time. The back line seems content to just be in the general vicinity of the attackers and not do anything to try to slow them down.
My daughter just finished her U10 season, and the coach has pretty much finished successfully training them to understand that giving up the ball by just booting it downfield is a poor tradeoff; I think that Thailand could have benefitted from such training. I've never seen a team play that sloppily. (Well, an adult team; plenty of teams in my daughter's age group are hapless.) Thailand did everything well except dribble, pass, hold on to the ball, run, attack, or defend.

I usually pooh pooh arguments about running up the score; my theory is that realizing as the losing team that the only reason the other team has stopped scoring is out of pity is more insulting than being trampled. But in this case, I did start to feel bad for Thailand. I saw a statistic that the U.S. time of possession was only about 75%; I'm shocked its that low. They were just toying with Thailand. The talent differential was insane.
   143. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 12, 2019 at 02:30 AM (#5850827)
Wow, everyone here is really in get off my lawn mode about the goal celebrations? Come on, it's just having fun, it's not like they were taunting the Thai players or something.
   144. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 12, 2019 at 02:54 AM (#5850828)
I know it's all the rage to include as many teams as possible these days, but I think I'd prefer a 16-team tournament. Keep 2 CAF, 2 CONMEBOL, 2 CONCACAF, 1 OFC, 3 ACF, and 6 UEFA. That's 4 groups of 4 with no third place teams advancing. Dropped 1 CAF, 1 CONMEBOL, 1 CONCACAF, 2 AFC, 3 UEFA

Seeding (based on December 2018 rankings, as per the actual draw, though the actual qualification would have had to be run differently)

1 seeds:
USA
France
Germany
England

2 seeds:
Canada
Australia
Netherlands
Japan

3 seeds:
Sweden
Brazil
Spain
China

4 seeds:
New Zealand
Nigeria
Cameroon
Chile

edit: if that makes it too hard for any other CONCACAF team to make the tourney, give a third team a playoff against OFC champ.
   145. bunyon Posted: June 12, 2019 at 06:45 AM (#5850831)
I missed yesterday's game - sounds like I'm glad I'm did.

I did see the US play Panama in Cary about a year ago and it had a similar feel. The US could do anything they wanted and celebrated it at every turn. I think it ended up 5-0 or something. Lloyd had a hat trick. I think only one goal came after half, so they pulled back.

But the fans were worse. It was clearly a mismatch but the fans spewed vitriol at the refs and Panamanian players.

So, I'm clear that the US women aren't into empathy and sportsmanship.

However, in their defense (and it's weak as I felt gross my day in Cary and yesterday seems so much worse), they are SO far ahead of the rest of the world that we're basically asking them to only celebrate when playing one of 3 or 4 teams. Above, Hugh points out that Germany celebrating their drubbing of Argentina is "allowed" because of the level at which it occured. So, we agree that at some point, you can celebrate beating the #### out of someone. I can well imagine the US players and coaches thinking similarly and that "in the World Cup", the highest level in the sport, is past that line.

Like I say, I disagree with that take but I'm sure it's what they think. In any case, all I can say now is: They'd better win the ####### tournament. I can imagine the jeering they'll face if, say, France, beats them. We'd get to see if they can take it.
   146. Baldrick Posted: June 12, 2019 at 06:47 AM (#5850832)
16 would be way too small. Other than this single game, the tournament has been extremely competitive. And unlike the men's game where programs are going to be well funded no matter what, the lure of the World Cup is MASSIVELY important to generating money for many countries.

I'd be in favor of expanding to 32 fairly soon (and then never going above that). 32 is the objectively best size for a tournament, and simply getting to a World Cup is a huge boost for countries' programs. And making qualifying more of a possibility would ALSO help to incentivize putting in a little more funding.

And there are enough quality teams not here. Costa Rica and Mexico from CONCACAF (maybe Panama), North Korea from AFC, quite a few UEFA teams (Switzerland, Denmark, Austria, Belgium, Iceland to name a few). And teams like Jamaica show that there's a lot of potential talent out there that can grow by leaps and bounds if anyone just steps in to actually fund the program. You'd end up with a few more uncompetitive games (but not really that many), and could do away with the silliness of 16/24 teams advancing. 2023 might be too soon, but 2027 would be totally doable.
   147. Baldrick Posted: June 12, 2019 at 06:51 AM (#5850833)
However, in their defense (and it's weak as I felt gross my day in Cary and yesterday seems so much worse), they are SO far ahead of the rest of the world that we're basically asking them to only celebrate when playing one of 3 or 4 teams.

I'd say there are ~20 teams in the world with the potential (small but real) of beating the US. #20 in the world right now is Scotland, who were clearly outmatched when they played the US recently, but also kept it close the whole way. They have Kim Little and Erin Cuthbert, and a solid backline. It could happen.
   148. bunyon Posted: June 12, 2019 at 06:53 AM (#5850834)
So if we beat Scotland 13-0, do we get to celebrate the last few goals?

Usually the defense of celebration and running the score up is: we're playing at the highest level. If you don't want the score run up, stop us. If you think that a valid take, at what point does that philosophy kick in in current women's soccer?
   149. bunyon Posted: June 12, 2019 at 06:58 AM (#5850835)
Just saw the highlights on sportscenter here. Announcer said nothing of the celebrations, just saying over and over how good we are.

Also, I had no idea it was only 3-0 at half. Yikes.

When did the subs come on?
   150. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 12, 2019 at 07:38 AM (#5850836)
Fernigal - that sounds amazing. I assume you are in St. Louis and I get that St. Louis FC isn’t an MLS club but they don’t have a better field than that to play on?
ESPN+ was showing a bunch of Open Cup games. St Louis apparently normally plays on a proper grass soccer field, but moved for the Cup. I watched a bit of NY Red Bulls playing New England in the Cup, and they were playing at a stadium at Montclair State U (with terrible camera angles) rather than Red Bull Arena. Columbus at least was playing at their normal home. I'd guess the normal home venues had other things scheduled?

Also, no one was at any of the games. It's too bad we have a cup that no one cares about until the semis.
   151. Baldrick Posted: June 12, 2019 at 08:16 AM (#5850839)
Usually the defense of celebration and running the score up is: we're playing at the highest level. If you don't want the score run up, stop us. If you think that a valid take, at what point does that philosophy kick in in current women's soccer?

To be clear, I'm not really that interested in 'should the players celebrate.' I just think it's important to recognize that there isn't really a 'level' here that is equivalent to other sporting contexts. The Women's World Cup is HUGE business. Many many millions of people watching. Lots of money. Lots of attention. But only in some countries is women's soccer treated with any degree of respect for the other 3 years and 11 months of the calendar. If you're playing a country that doesn't offer any support to their team, whose players are almost exclusively domestic players in a semi-pro Thai league (aside from one US college student and one recent US college grad), the normal heuristic of 'it's the highest level' doesn't really apply.

That's an unfortunate reality, but it's one that we shouldn't gloss over. It should inform some of our feelings about the event, and it should inspire us to look for context as much as possible.

So no, there isn't a hard and fast rule. But there rarely is when it comes to complicated issues like respect.

The players are going to give their all unless someone tells them not to. The coaches have reasons (not very good ones in my opinion, but real reasons) for telling them to keep their foot on the acceleration. The fans are enjoying the experience. Everyone has perfectly understandable motivations. But 'understandable' is a low bar to clear. We can be better than that.
   152. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: June 12, 2019 at 09:02 AM (#5850845)
Just watched the celebration replays, and I was a bit underwhelmed after reading some of the more excited comments. The US certainly celebrated more than the Spanish v Tahiti example, but really not as much as I was expecting. Not really trying to come down on her, but it seems like Rapinoe is really prominent in most/all of the celebrations. If she doesn't jump on someone almost every time is it as big of a deal?
   153. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: June 12, 2019 at 09:25 AM (#5850852)
Shoulda been 15.

I think all the handwringing about the celebrations is overblown. The players have been waiting for this game a long time and then had to wait for everyone else to play. I think they were champing at the bit. Probably if this game was the second game they wouldn't have been so giddy. I would prefer they showed more restraint, but I was always more of a Barry Sanders guy than a Deion Sanders guy and I'm not going to prescribe any behavior to the players. As for the crowd...USA fans are obnoxious but we've ALWAYS been obnoxious. (Really, that U-S-A chant is like fingernails on a chalk board to me anymore.) On the other hand, we don't use homophobic slurs or monkey chants or have drunken mobs of right wingers storming city squares and singing songs about World War II. Maybe the Europeans should take a broader view before they get out their fainting couches. Again, I don't enjoy the jingoistic BS, but the whole tournament is kind of designed to promote jingoistic BS.
   154. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: June 12, 2019 at 09:37 AM (#5850856)
BTW, I didn't see France or Germany play, but of the games I saw, the US team was just heads and shoulders above in skill and athleticism. Their tempo was so much faster and their technical skill just dwarfed, say, Sweden or Japan. Despite the hype the announcers saying the quality of play at this WC was so high, I actually haven't agreed and was actually disappointing by how crappy so many of the teams looked. Watching the US team knock the ball around with purpose and hit shots at the goal with real venom came as sweet relief. Hopefully teams like England, Japan and Sweden will raise their games now.
   155. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: June 12, 2019 at 10:36 AM (#5850899)
This Nigeria/South Korea game has been extremely entertaining. I’m not remotely knowledgeable enough to really make a good observation but Nigeria look pretty potent to me. They have played a few long balls that were just outrageously good. They look like a team that has the ability to steal a knockout stage game against a better team due to their ability to counterattack.
   156. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: June 12, 2019 at 10:44 AM (#5850904)
Agree about the hand-wringing being overblown. The best was that Germany had sportscasters tut-tutting about running up the score, when the previous double digit game in the WWC was authored by Die Nationalelf against Argentina. Or maybe Canada acting aghast when they're mainly jealous of having more than one world class forward.

If this is a heel turn by the USWNT, I'm leaning into it.
   157. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 12, 2019 at 10:50 AM (#5850908)
However, in their defense (and it's weak as I felt gross my day in Cary and yesterday seems so much worse), they are SO far ahead of the rest of the world that we're basically asking them to only celebrate when playing one of 3 or 4 teams.
It's one thing to celebrate having won the game. Or to celebrate scoring when the game is close. But celebrating goals long after the game has been decided, against a team that obviously didn't belong on the field, as though you just scored the game winner is a bit of a bad look.

EDIT: And yes, I realize that's a bit of hyperbole. But when you take a double digit lead in soccer, anything more than a slap on the back is over the top.
   158. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 12, 2019 at 10:55 AM (#5850918)
16 would be way too small. Other than this single game, the tournament has been extremely competitive. And unlike the men's game where programs are going to be well funded no matter what, the lure of the World Cup is MASSIVELY important to generating money for many countries.

I'd be in favor of expanding to 32 fairly soon (and then never going above that). 32 is the objectively best size for a tournament, and simply getting to a World Cup is a huge boost for countries' programs. And making qualifying more of a possibility would ALSO help to incentivize putting in a little more funding.

And there are enough quality teams not here. Costa Rica and Mexico from CONCACAF (maybe Panama), North Korea from AFC, quite a few UEFA teams (Switzerland, Denmark, Austria, Belgium, Iceland to name a few). And teams like Jamaica show that there's a lot of potential talent out there that can grow by leaps and bounds if anyone just steps in to actually fund the program. You'd end up with a few more uncompetitive games (but not really that many), and could do away with the silliness of 16/24 teams advancing. 2023 might be too soon, but 2027 would be totally doable.


Two different motivations: growing the women's game and competition, are somewhat at odds. (This US victory is probably a setback for the perception of the sport actually, because it gives it an amateur feel.) Anyway. I'm actually not very concerned about whether the sports I like are popular or not, or whether they grow. I can see everything now on the internet anyway. For me, meaningful competition is more important.

There would be significantly more noncompetitive games if the tournament expands. As mentioned, you don't get to expand only to the next best 8 teams that didn't make it, basically all of which are from Europe. You expand in every region, which means there are two new Vietnams and two new Malis for every new Switzerland and Belgium.
   159. The Marksist Posted: June 12, 2019 at 02:49 PM (#5851107)
Watched a good chunk of Germany/Spain just now, and Spain looked really good to me. They failed to turn a bunch of dangerous possession into shots, but their build-up play was pretty slick and the press was very effective for most of the game. Germany scored on what looked like a miscommunication between the keeper and a defender, but otherwise didn't create a whole lot (I see one other v good chance on the xG map, but didn't see it live).

I definitely don't watch much women's soccer, but it struck me in the bits I've watched so far how different the spacing feels from a lot of the men's soccer I watch. Pitch feels bigger, defenders have more time to recover in a lot of situations. Changes the dynamics in an interesting way.
   160. Baldrick Posted: June 12, 2019 at 03:19 PM (#5851122)
Two different motivations: growing the women's game and competition, are somewhat at odds. (This US victory is probably a setback for the perception of the sport actually, because it gives it an amateur feel.) Anyway. I'm actually not very concerned about whether the sports I like are popular or not, or whether they grow. I can see everything now on the internet anyway. For me, meaningful competition is more important.

I'm concerned that women around the world have institutions built up that make it literally possible for them to play soccer.

I will sacrifice a little bit of competition if necessary. Especially since in the long run that sacrifice will more than pay itself off by lifting the tide and producing better 32 team tournaments down the road.
There would be significantly more noncompetitive games if the tournament expands. As mentioned, you don't get to expand only to the next best 8 teams that didn't make it, basically all of which are from Europe. You expand in every region, which means there are two new Vietnams and two new Malis for every new Switzerland and Belgium.

CONCACAF and CONMEBOL have a playoff now. Add three there and eliminate the playoff. Colombia is totally credible (drew with the US in the Olympics), as are Mexico and Costa Rica and maybe Panama. Maybe someone else steps up and beats one of those (like Jamaica did this time around). North Korea is only missing on a technicality. Easy to add one from AFC. Add three from UEFA, no problem. Add one from Africa. There's your eight. No teams that are obviously worse than the bottom teams in the tournament now. Obviously, not every one would make it. but if they don't, it's because someone beat them, and that's fine too.
   161. Baldrick Posted: June 12, 2019 at 03:23 PM (#5851125)
I definitely don't watch much women's soccer, but it struck me in the bits I've watched so far how different the spacing feels from a lot of the men's soccer I watch. Pitch feels bigger, defenders have more time to recover in a lot of situations. Changes the dynamics in an interesting way.

One of the reasons I like it a lot is that there's a lot more back and forth. A bit more chaos because the sheer athleticism and speed doesn't lock down space so much.

Spain were good, but that's pretty much their MO. Look nice, slick passing, no actual goals. Total cliche.

So far, France-Norway has been great. France is excellent, but Norway are really challenging them.
   162. I am going to be Frank Posted: June 12, 2019 at 03:28 PM (#5851131)
The French look terrible on defense and have been been guilty of some bad giveaways. In possession they look dangerous.

I can't believe people are suggesting more teams. Presumably Thailand qualified over North Korea. It seems like the Europeans should have more teams as those teams are better funded, and there are enough leagues in Europe for them to play.

I've been reading a little a bit about the women's team. Apparently Horan was basically forced to quit PSG because the US team forces them to play in the NWSL if they want to be on the national team. I hope that changes real soon. Keeping is still a big difference. The size and athleticism just doesn't allow a female keeper to cover the goal very well.
   163. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: June 12, 2019 at 03:31 PM (#5851133)
I don’t watch a ton of soccer, but in general I prefer the women’s game. Maybe it is my imagination, but it seems like the women have less of the fake injuries and referee whining that make my eyes roll.
   164. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: June 12, 2019 at 03:32 PM (#5851136)
This Diani for France is destroying the Norwegian left back but seems hesitant to shoot.
   165. . Posted: June 12, 2019 at 03:45 PM (#5851154)
Yeah, even though I'm American, I've never really considered it any kind of a duty to root for the US in international soccer, and I never really have rooted for the US. The celebrations are a small microcosm look into why, though only a small one. (*) (The more compelling reason is that I literally don't see any reason I have to or should; i.e., there's nothing really compelling a person to root for his nation in international sporting events. My favorite international team remains the Thuram/Blanc/Zidane/Henry World Cup/Euro 2000 winning Les Bleus from 1998-2002.) I see no aesthetic advantage to me of any kind if the US becomes top of the heap in men's soccer and frankly, I see a great deal of potential aesthetic disadvantage. Though that's secondary to the reason in parens.

A decent amount of American soccer fans are drawn to the sport because it's the world's game, and there's nothing really wrong with that -- in fact, there's a lot right with it -- but then they also tend to be the most nationalistic in their international rooting interests which I've always found a bit incongruent with the thing that brought them to the sport in the first place. But YMMV. I don't not root for the US because of this.

(*) And of course of course of course, the whole thing has been Deadspinned into some kind of important referendum if not sexism. Thanks, but no thanks.
   166. KronicFatigue Posted: June 12, 2019 at 04:03 PM (#5851175)
Is there a good primer type article explaining the teams in WWC? I need a new team to root for after that 13-0 gloating.
   167. I am going to be Frank Posted: June 12, 2019 at 04:11 PM (#5851188)
Wow that was a bad OG. She could have let it go, or really cleared, but tapped it straight in.
   168. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: June 12, 2019 at 04:20 PM (#5851196)
Jeez, now I feel like I unleashed the troll. Sorry everybody.
   169. Baldrick Posted: June 12, 2019 at 04:20 PM (#5851197)
Is there a good primer type article explaining the teams in WWC? I need a new team to root for after that 13-0 gloating.

Click the title of this very thread!

Alternatively: 2019 women’s World Cup teams, ranked by how much fun they are to watch
   170. Baldrick Posted: June 12, 2019 at 04:25 PM (#5851198)
This France-Norway game rules. I really wish Nice wasn't like half a continent away or I'd be there.
   171. KronicFatigue Posted: June 12, 2019 at 04:28 PM (#5851199)
Click the title of this very thread!


Oh man, this is the article I was looking for! I read it awhile ago, but couldn't find it again. Maybe it was in last month's thread? I'll be honest, I didn't know every off-topic thread even had a link; I've never clicked on the title of an off-topic thread. I was about to go through your twitter-thread as an alternative.
   172. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 12, 2019 at 04:28 PM (#5851201)
Sure looked like a penalty.
   173. I am going to be Frank Posted: June 12, 2019 at 04:30 PM (#5851203)
I agree penalty. France definitely deserve the lead.
   174. Baldrick Posted: June 12, 2019 at 04:55 PM (#5851223)
Oh man, this is the article I was looking for! I read it awhile ago, but couldn't find it again. Maybe it was in last month's thread? I'll be honest, I didn't know every off-topic thread even had a link; I've never clicked on the title of an off-topic thread. I was about to go through your twitter-thread as an alternative.

They usually don't. This was just a nice gesture by Jose.
   175. Athletic Supporter is USDA certified lean Posted: June 12, 2019 at 06:02 PM (#5851232)
If you're playing a country that doesn't offer any support to their team, whose players are almost exclusively domestic players in a semi-pro Thai league (aside from one US college student and one recent US college grad), the normal heuristic of 'it's the highest level' doesn't really apply.


I heard today that the Norwegian (starting) goalkeeper is a software engineer. Apparently she works 60% time in that capacity, in addition to her soccer life. This is Norway, not some third world country. That's pretty cool, but also speaks volumes about how much of an industry women's soccer actually is in most countries.
   176. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 13, 2019 at 05:03 AM (#5851305)
I heard today that the Norwegian (starting) goalkeeper is a software engineer. Apparently she works 60% time in that capacity, in addition to her soccer life. This is Norway, not some third world country. That's pretty cool, but also speaks volumes about how much of an industry women's soccer actually is in most countries.

I mean, I think you may be overestimating how much of an industry men's football is in most countries. From what I can find, the average wage in Norway's top league is around 60k Euros. Obviously that is not minor league level hardship right there, but it is not really much in the realm of professional sports. Especially when you consider most players won't last even 10 years. So I would expect the vast majority of men in the Norwegian league will be working towards post-playing careers in some form or another, even during their playing days.

Now obviously, elite Norwegian men can and do get paid. They just don't get paid in Norway.
   177. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: June 13, 2019 at 07:55 AM (#5851312)
Norway's National Association is utter dogshit when it comes to supporting the women's game. They give vastly more support to the men's team than they do the women's team. It's a major reason why Ada Hegerberg is boycotting the World Cup.

Like, USA Soccer is utterly pathetic in how it pays the men so much more than the much more successful (both on the pitch and revenue wise!) women, but at least they aren't literally turning down corporations that want to pay them money to sponsor the women because they don't think women's soccer has any money in it.

Heck, the general populace of Norway has stronger support for womens pay and training than the Norwegian FA does.
   178. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: June 13, 2019 at 08:27 AM (#5851319)
FIFA is really terrible at supporting women's soccer. The prize money for the men's WC is 30 times higher than for the women even though the revenue from the men's WC is only 13 x more. Also, FIFA is sitting on a giant pile of cash, very little of which gets invested in women's football infrastructure. But all those bureaucratic soccer luminaries don't mind spending it on their many, many expenses. FIFA is a joke. When we support the WC or international teams we are putting money in their pockets. I won't even bring up the thousands of deaths in Qatar as no one cares about them and I will only go insane thinking about it. I did make the choice to watch the women's WC because I've decided supporting women's football is a better good than not supporting FIFA in this particular case. Men's international football remains dead to me.

On the field, that France-Norway game was a great spectacle. After a dreary first round of games it's good to see the heavy hitters play each other and raise the level of competition. I really wish the US had a tougher group stage. They'll walk over Chile and then play Sweden in a game that neither team will care about winning since the winner will end up in France's half of the bracket.
   179. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 13, 2019 at 09:00 AM (#5851323)
In news of the Cup no one cares about, apparently including the teams participating in it: Seattle, which draws 40K per game, drew their arch-rivals Portland for the latest round of the Open Cup. So of course they played the game in the Tacoma Raniers home stadium, which seats 6,200 for soccer. At least it was a sellout, unlike every other Open Cup game.

(EDIT: It's also the home stadium of the NWSL Seattle Reign, so at least they know how to set it up for high level soccer, unlike some of the other venues I've seen.)
   180. spivey Posted: June 13, 2019 at 09:04 AM (#5851324)
The Open Cup is kind of exciting for teams in Madison's league, US League One, since they're nominally the third tier and this is their only chance to play an MLS team in a competitive game. They lost to St. Louis FC though the round before that would have happened.
   181. . Posted: June 13, 2019 at 09:22 AM (#5851328)
Nice job turning the thread into OTP. Shocking.

As with MLB free agency, there's no necessary correlation between revenues and wages, even wages to key employees. And in this case, you have a situation where the men have primary jobs paying them far more than the women and it therefore makes perfect rational sense that it would cost more to get the men to take on a second job. More power to the USWNT women if they can get more money -- I'm rooting for them at least in theory -- but their wages are pretty much determined the way everyone else's are. Once that simple fact is grasped, teeth would hopefully unclench. There are certainly valid criticisms of our system of negotiated salaries/wages, with its disparate powers and whatnot and all the rest -- but that's an entirely different subject than the wokenomic insinuations.
   182. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 13, 2019 at 09:24 AM (#5851329)
Taylor Twellman, in between bouts of being annoying, said on one of the broadcasts that the Open Cup should always be held at the home of the lower tier team. That would at least play up the excitement for teams from the lower leagues.
   183. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 13, 2019 at 09:27 AM (#5851330)
More power to the USWNT women if they can get more money, but their wages are pretty much determined the way everyone else's are.
Unlike the players in the Women's World Cup, my wages are not determined by a hegemonic national monopoly beholden only to a corrupt hegemonic global monopoly.
   184. . Posted: June 13, 2019 at 09:29 AM (#5851332)
Unlike the players in the Women's World Cup, my wages are not determined by a hegemonic national monopoly beholden only to a corrupt hegemonic global monopoly.


Fair enough, but I accounted for that in my post. And a lot of wages in the broader economy are affected by those kind of things. Many, many peoples'.

FIFA really isn't a monopoly and can't exert monopoly power, either, but that's a relatively small quibble to what you said.
   185. jmurph Posted: June 13, 2019 at 09:36 AM (#5851335)
US Soccer is a nonprofit whose mission is "to make soccer, in all its forms, a preeminent sport in the United States and to continue the development of soccer at all recreational and competitive levels." There's no conceivable reason to pay the women less than the men, and I can't imagine they won't eventually win the legal battle.
   186. Baldrick Posted: June 13, 2019 at 09:36 AM (#5851336)
Touching on several of the subjects we discussed here, my colleague Stephanie Yang has a nice pice: If you want to be mad about the USWNT’s 13-0 win, blame FIFA, not the players.
   187. Baldrick Posted: June 13, 2019 at 09:41 AM (#5851338)
I did make the choice to watch the women's WC because I've decided supporting women's football is a better good than not supporting FIFA in this particular case. Men's international football remains dead to me.

This is where I'm at. There is simply no other route to a viable career playing soccer for players in most countries around the world if not through FIFA. So I'd rather support and criticize. But I'm done with international soccer on the men's side absent some truly revolutionary changes.

Additional note: please please do not respond to SBB. Unlike the rest of the site, this thread has remained blissfully protected. Just ignore him and he'll go away. Please.
   188. Dromedary pretzels, only half a dinar (CoB). Posted: June 13, 2019 at 09:45 AM (#5851340)

Additional note: please please do not respond to SBB. Unlike the rest of the site, this thread has remained blissfully protected. Just ignore him and he'll go away. Please.


Remember the wisdom of Admiral Akbar ...
   189. . Posted: June 13, 2019 at 10:02 AM (#5851354)
Additional note: please please do not respond to SBB. Unlike the rest of the site, this thread has remained blissfully protected. Just ignore him and he'll go away. Please.


What a weird and creepy and bizarre comment. Whoever made it: Grow up.
   190. . Posted: June 13, 2019 at 10:05 AM (#5851356)
There's no conceivable reason to pay the women less than the men,


Non-profits have the authority to pay market wages. They're expected to, so as to, e.g., not squander the foundation's and its donors' money. (You can consult, for example, the Spitzer/Grasso case from the early-mid 2000s. Easily googleable.)

Like I said: What a shock that the thread got turned into OTP. It was inevitable. If you're going to turn it into OTP, don't be surprised if others comment on the P part.
   191. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: June 13, 2019 at 10:32 AM (#5851366)
Taylor Twellman, in between bouts of being annoying, said on one of the broadcasts that the Open Cup should always be held at the home of the lower tier team. That would at least play up the excitement for teams from the lower leagues.

They do this in France, with much success.
   192. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: June 13, 2019 at 10:36 AM (#5851368)
This is probably the wrong thread, but the NBA is toying with the idea of an in season tournament to mimic what soccer does with the domestic cups. I think that would be awesome if they opened it up to all professional teams in the world that wanted to join in. I don't think America would care about an FA Cup featuring just NBA teams, but I think there would be a ton of interest in, say, Milwaukee Bucks vs Real Madrid in a game with stakes. If the NBA is looking to soccer for ideas, you know soccer has gone full mainstream.

Non-profits have the authority to pay market wages.

This is dumb, especially when talking about monopolistic organizations like FA's. I will not engage beyond this comment so as not to help ruin this thread.
   193. jmurph Posted: June 13, 2019 at 10:47 AM (#5851377)
This is dumb, especially when talking about monopolistic organizations like FA's. I will not engage beyond this comment so as not to help ruin this thread.

First of all I don't understand why discussing the USWNT's very public pay dispute could possibly be out of bounds in the official off-topic soccer thread that is currently devoted to discussing the women's World Cup.

Second, yes, correct. My point in highlighting their nonprofit status was to point to their stated mission. It is unnecessary to (correctly) point out that they are far more successful than their male counterparts and, by at least some measures, more popular, impactful, etc.
   194. . Posted: June 13, 2019 at 10:56 AM (#5851380)
First of all I don't understand why discussing the USWNT's very public pay dispute could possibly be out of bounds in the official off-topic soccer thread that is currently devoted to discussing the women's World Cup.


It isn't, necessarily. But it's weird and creepy and stalkerish and asocial to turn the thread into politics and then get all pearl-clutching when other people also write something political.(*) It's strange that this should even have to be pointed out.

No, the FAs aren't monopolies and saying it over and over and over and over doesn't change that. They offer one type of niche soccer to the marketplace, and the marketplace is saturated by other soccer outside the international brand. Nor are they the sole employer of soccer talent, or anything close. This is easy to see with even a modicum of objective thought. If objective thought led me in the other direction, I would gladly say so -- but it doesn't.

(*) Particularly when the actual OTP thread got nuked because of chronic, relentless whining and violent threats by people of the same general political perspective as the pearl-clutchers.
   195. Dromedary pretzels, only half a dinar (CoB). Posted: June 13, 2019 at 11:05 AM (#5851388)
Dammit people, if you won't listen to Admiral Akbar, listen to the Lord Humungus!
   196. Fernigal McGunnigle Posted: June 13, 2019 at 11:18 AM (#5851396)
This is probably the wrong thread, but the NBA is toying with the idea of an in season tournament to mimic what soccer does with the domestic cups.
Men's college basketball is where something like an FA Cup could really work. Across NCAA D1, 2, and 3 and the NAIA D1 & 2, I counted 1372 institutions. (This number is likely wrong though in the ballpark.) So ignoring schools in Canada, women's colleges, and places without basketball, that's probably something like 1100 or 1200 teams. There's no time for it during the season, they would have to regionalize it for the first many rounds, the system of what teams come in when would be devilishly complex, and of course the NCAA looks good only in comparison to FIFA. But men's college basketball is the sport with the enough national infrastructure and about enough parity that you could run a deep tournament that lots of people would care about and without too many Spain vs Fiji type games.
   197. Dromedary pretzels, only half a dinar (CoB). Posted: June 13, 2019 at 11:50 AM (#5851409)
After a dreary first round of games it's good to see the heavy hitters play each other and raise the level of competition.


Getting back to the matter at hand, I have high hopes for an entertaining match between Australia and Brazil.
   198. aberg Posted: June 13, 2019 at 12:39 PM (#5851429)
Men's college basketball is where something like an FA Cup could really work. Across NCAA D1, 2, and 3 and the NAIA D1 & 2, I counted 1372 institutions. (This number is likely wrong though in the ballpark.) So ignoring schools in Canada, women's colleges, and places without basketball, that's probably something like 1100 or 1200 teams. There's no time for it during the season, they would have to regionalize it for the first many rounds, the system of what teams come in when would be devilishly complex, and of course the NCAA looks good only in comparison to FIFA. But men's college basketball is the sport with the enough national infrastructure and about enough parity that you could run a deep tournament that lots of people would care about and without too many Spain vs Fiji type games.


This would be much more fun than most of the non-conference games that happen now.
   199. Dromedary pretzels, only half a dinar (CoB). Posted: June 13, 2019 at 12:39 PM (#5851430)
Well, Brazil have held up their end of the bargain; Australia, not so much.
   200. Dromedary pretzels, only half a dinar (CoB). Posted: June 13, 2019 at 12:47 PM (#5851432)
flip
Page 2 of 15 pages  < 1 2 3 4 >  Last ›

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
JPWF13
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogFor Justin Verlander, 20 wins a special moment
(19 - 5:04am, Sep 24)
Last: Lest we forget

NewsblogOT - Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (September 2019)
(243 - 3:11am, Sep 24)
Last: BrianBrianson

NewsblogInjured Yelich still in the hunt for batting title
(4 - 3:03am, Sep 24)
Last: vortex of dissipation

Newsblog'How Many MVPs Have to Go Down?': Scott Boras Is Fed Up With MLB's Unsafe Bases
(6 - 2:32am, Sep 24)
Last: Rob_Wood

NewsblogDiving catches are amazing baseball highlights ... but don’t they hurt? We asked.
(1 - 2:07am, Sep 24)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogPadres fire manager Andy Green; communication issues cited
(23 - 2:04am, Sep 24)
Last: Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it

NewsblogMurray Chass is Not Done Yet
(33 - 1:40am, Sep 24)
Last: Sweatpants

NewsblogOT - NBA thread (Playoffs through off-season)
(6795 - 1:19am, Sep 24)
Last: tshipman

NewsblogOMNICHATTER hasn't slept in months, for September 23, 2019
(62 - 1:10am, Sep 24)
Last: phredbird

NewsblogVideo: Mookie Betts makes 305-foot on-the-fly throw to nail Avisaíl García at third base
(1 - 1:02am, Sep 24)
Last: Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes

NewsblogJoe West ejects Yankees’ Boone amid clash with rookie ump
(35 - 12:59am, Sep 24)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

NewsblogHouston Astros clinch third consecutive AL West division title
(27 - 12:34am, Sep 24)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

NewsblogOlney: Why nobody might want to be Boston's GM ($)
(22 - 11:23pm, Sep 23)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

NewsblogFallacy of lively ball
(150 - 11:13pm, Sep 23)
Last: the Hugh Jorgan returns

NewsblogBrewers move into tie with Nationals for first NL Wild Card
(23 - 10:33pm, Sep 23)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

Page rendered in 0.8252 seconds
46 querie(s) executed