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Tuesday, May 29, 2018

OT: Soccer Thread (World Cup)

We’ve gotten through Champions League and most of the relegation/promotion stuff so we may as well focus on the World Cup. And what a World Cup, Buffon playing his sixth, Pulisic making his WC debut, quality on-site reporting from Fox and two time Copa America champs Chile just part of what should make for an amazing tournament!  Plus of course the the family-friendly, inclusive atmosphere sure to be fostered by the Russians.

Group A - Russia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Uruguay
Group B - Portugal, Spain, Morocco, Iran
Group C - France, Australia, Peru, Denmark
Group D - Argentina, Iceland, Croatia, Nigeria
Group E - Brazil, Switzerland, Costa Rica, Serbia
Group F - Germany, Mexico, Sweden, South Korea
Group G - Belgium, Panama, Tunisia, England
Group H - Poland, Senegal, Colombia, Japan

Jose is Absurdly Unemployed Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:57 AM | 3354 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, soccer

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   301. spivey Posted: June 16, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5693348)
Filp
   302. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5693349)
Peru has really been taking it to Denmark. They look fast and dynamic.
   303. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5693354)
Denmark has had a lot of possession, but I don't think they have had a single shot yet.

edit: oops they just got one as I typed that, though it was from 30 yards.
   304. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 12:45 PM (#5693363)
Now, that one looked like a penalty. I have a high standard in the box but that one met it.
   305. I am going to be Frank Posted: June 16, 2018 at 12:47 PM (#5693365)
I think it’s similar to the first one. If you’re going to remove the discretion of the ref the video will call it.

That was England-leve penalty kick taking.
   306. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 12:53 PM (#5693366)
Quite different. The defensive player was nowhere near the ball, the offensive player had clear control had there been no foul and the dangerous offensive situation would have continued without the foul. And, there was clearly no way the offensive player could have stayed on his feet or was looking for the call.

Now, if you are saying that once it goes to VAR, all that other stuff doesn't matter anymore, than there is a serious problem with VAR.
   307. spivey Posted: June 16, 2018 at 12:54 PM (#5693367)
I dunno frank. I didn’t see the first one but that’s a clear penalty for me. Wiped out his plant foot and it was a good goal scoring chance (this doesn’t matter but I think should when giving penalties)
   308. I am going to be Frank Posted: June 16, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5693368)
Yea - it’s all about removing the discretion of the ref. Almost always if Contact was made with the player, regardless of circumstances, then var is going to award a penalty.
   309. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 01:01 PM (#5693372)
Yea - it’s all about removing the discretion of the ref. Almost always if Contact was made with the player, regardless of circumstances, then var is going to award a penalty.
ok. Maybe you are right. I hope not though, because if so there are likely to be serious unintended consequences (as you noted).

Note that they sent the decision in the France game back to the field ref (do they always do that?) so there is still an opportunity for discretion. Whether or not it works out that way in practice remains to be seen.
   310. Jose is Absurdly Unemployed Posted: June 16, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5693375)
What do people think of the announcers in this Peru-Denmark game. It’s taken me a bit to get used to the heavily accented English but the enthusiasm is just infectious and fun. The play by play guy is a real life version of the dude in the Simpsons episode and that’s a good thing I think.
   311. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 01:20 PM (#5693385)
There's irony for you. Denmark dominated possession most of the day but got no good looks at goal. Then they catch Peru on the break for once and score their only good chance. Well played by Eriksen.
   312. Jose is Absurdly Unemployed Posted: June 16, 2018 at 01:22 PM (#5693388)
And the announcer breaks out a “boom goes the dynamite.” Loving this.
   313. PreservedFish Posted: June 16, 2018 at 01:42 PM (#5693394)
Damn that would've been a slick goal. No-look back heel, just missed.
   314. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 01:45 PM (#5693397)
If this result holds, it will be the first game that the clearly inferior team on the day got the victory.
   315. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 01:55 PM (#5693400)
A very disappointing loss for Peru. They now almost certainly either need to beat France or have Australia at least draw Denmark to even have a chance.
   316. Dale Sams Posted: June 16, 2018 at 01:58 PM (#5693402)
What do people think of the announcers in this Peru-Denmark game. It’s taken me a bit to get used to the heavily accented English but the enthusiasm is just infectious and fun. The play by play guy is a real life version of the dude in the Simpsons episode and that’s a good thing I think.


I thought a fight was going to break out....kidding...and was the one guy calling throw-ins, "Handballs"?
   317. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5693412)
Now I am seeing talking heads saying that the Iceland foul in the corner of the box should have gone to VAR, and should have been called a penalty. Why wasn't it? My guess is the VAR guys are using their own discretion. I really hope fouls like that don't all become penalties.
   318. McCoy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 03:08 PM (#5693424)
Don't watch a lot of soccer. Probably about an hour or so every 4 years but the announcers for Peru-Denmark were really. . . something. They did kind of sound like they hated each other and at least one of them gave off the vibe that they didn't think much of the other one. I only watched the last 20 minutes of the match but I found their banter so intrusive that it took away from the game. But then again it is soccer and not much happens for long stretches of time so perhaps that is what the trend is in announcers.
   319. PreservedFish Posted: June 16, 2018 at 03:16 PM (#5693427)
I still think that they should be able to award two levels of penalty kick. The ones they do now for clear goal-scoring chances. And a lesser penalty for a regular old foul in the box. It's totally wrong for a penalty to be awarded for a foul that disrupts, like, a 5% chance of scoring. And it leads to the ref having different standards in the box, which is all wrong.

What would the lesser penalty look like? I dunno, maybe the penalty taker just stands 10 yards further away from the goal. Or a free kick from the edge of the box.
   320. PreservedFish Posted: June 16, 2018 at 03:27 PM (#5693433)
I'm watching the ITV broadcast, via some probably illegal stream that I don't understand, which has the customary Welsh/Scottish color man with an impenetrable accent.
   321. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 03:36 PM (#5693440)
I'm watching the ITV broadcast,
Me too!

One suggestion was a spot of the foul for penalty kicks (no wall), with perhaps a minimum distance from the goal line (like the current 11 yds or whatever it is). That wouldn't resolve the 5% scoring opportunities though. I'm all for two levels of foul. Something has to be done, especially now that VAR seem likely to exacerbate the problem.
   322. It was something about the man-spider and sodomy, Posted: June 16, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5693446)
[edit] wrong thread
   323. PreservedFish Posted: June 16, 2018 at 03:55 PM (#5693451)
Yeah it feels like a no-brainer rule change. It's a damned shame that such a high percentage of games come down to a ref's penalty kick judgment call.
   324. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:40 PM (#5693479)
You almost never see penalties on crosses. Today we have seen 2 now--that last one was essentially a tackle. 6 penalties now through 8 games. Maybe we'll set a per game record this year. There were 17 penalty goals in 1998, out of 171 goals scored (64 games). Not sure how many penalties called though.

So far we are 4 goals out of 21 (through 8 games), with 6 penalties called.

edit: we've also had 2 own goals already. Record is 4 (1998/1954). 1954 had 4 own goals in about half the games we have now, but they also had about twice as many goals per game back then, so maybe that's a wash. (4 own goals out of 140 scored, in 26 games).
   325. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 05:46 PM (#5693507)
Here's the other one (not given) from the Peru game. If we call them all penalties on review, there will be an enormous number of penalties.

edit: it surprises me a bit that people are less worked up about this one than the Pavon one, as if anything this one is more blatant. Probably because Peru has a much lower profile than Argentina.
   326. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:11 PM (#5693526)
And Ronaldo's penalty might have been the weakest of all. Sigh. VAR is not (so far) helping the arbitrariness of penalty calls, and by resulting in more penalties overall, is likely making the game more arbitrary because penalties by their nature usually over-reward the offense. It's a stupid situation that only seems to be getting worse.
   327. Cleveland (need new name) fan Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:35 PM (#5693533)
That's a serious problem then. We had multiple fouls in the Iceland game that would have been penalties under that standard, if reviewed by VAR. We just had another one in the Denmark box.

As a casual soccer (at best) fan, why is this a problem? Why do you want the ref to have to refer to their penalty dice (in this situation, a roll of 1-3 is a penalty and a roll of 4-20 isn't, while in another situation, a roll of 1-14 is a penalty). The ref should just make the call as it applies, both fouls and dives. If the players don't want a penalty/dive called on them, then don't commit a foul/dive in the box. Don't blame the ref for making the call, blame the player for committing fouls/dives. This still leaves plenty of randomness because the ref will miss calls. No need to add more randomness by having an always changing foul definition.

If you think that this will cause more penalties/weaker defense (because players are more worried about penalties) which will increase scoring, it isn't written in stone that a 2-1 game is high scoring. Don't artificially depress scoring by purposely ignoring penalties just because it is "supposed to be" a low scoring game. Make the players actually play the game based on the rules and let the score be whatever it will be.

   328. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:45 PM (#5693536)
As a casual soccer (at best) fan, why is this a problem?
Because the punishment for a penalty usually doesn't fit the crime (it's usually much too harsh). If 3 or more penalties are awarded per game, the most viable offense will be the one designed to draw penalties, and offensive players will do everything possible to create contact in the box. It's already happening to some degree (Ronaldo the other day, among many other cases). It's sure to get worse. There's simply no way for defensive players to just "not commit fouls in the box", especially when offensive players get better at drawing them.

The way the game has historically been called, the ref doesn't "roll the dice", but rather weighs a number of factors in determining whether contact that would normally be a foul elsewhere on the field is sufficiently deserving of the severe punishment that is a penalty.

I guess we could solve the problem by just not allowing defensive players to go inside their own box. Scoring would rise, but that's ok, right?
   329. Mr Dashwood Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:46 PM (#5693538)
If this result holds, it will be the first game that the clearly inferior team on the day got the victory.

Peru were good at creating chances, but they looked very tentative on the ball in the area and couldn't convert chances into goals.

If you can't finish, you don't get coffee, as someone sort of said once.
   330. McCoy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 07:47 PM (#5693571)
In the NBA they opened the scoring by not allowing defenses to smother teams without fear of a foul being called and it benefited the game greatly. Looking for contact is bad and there are plays and players in the NBA that drive to the hoop recklessly in the hopes of drawing a foul. It is something you have to manage. If some player dives blow the whistle, give him a yellow card, and give the other team the kick. Most players and teams aren't going to be looking for the flop inside the box right off the bat if they know they not only won't get it but will also get carded for it. Most teams will focus on trying to score a goal especially in an environment where defenders aren't allowed to rape you anymore.
   331. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 08:02 PM (#5693576)
In the NBA they opened the scoring by not allowing defenses to smother teams without fear of a foul being called and it benefited the game greatly. Looking for contact is bad and there are plays and players in the NBA that drive to the hoop recklessly in the hopes of drawing a foul. It is something you have to manage. If some player dives blow the whistle, give him a yellow card, and give the other team the kick. Most players and teams aren't going to be looking for the flop inside the box right off the bat if they know they not only won't get it but will also get carded for it. Most teams will focus on trying to score a goal especially in an environment where defenders aren't allowed to rape you anymore
This is way wide of the mark. Only a small minority of plays currently involve no contact at all, where a player can be censured for a dive. The vast majority are plays where the offensive player helps create contact looking to go down. Many of them are very gray-areas calls. It doesn't do any good to say that half the calls go against the offense and the other half against the defense (very roughly, fair in basketball), because even 100 fouls called on the offensive player don't make up for a single penalty given (well, maybe 100 would be close). The punishment is wildly asymmetric, unlike in basketball.

And teams already look for fouls in the area (*cough* Ronaldo yesterday *cough*) with defenders (mostly) trying to do everything they can to not have a call drawn against them. It's already a significant problem and tripling the number of penalty calls is going to make it much worse.
   332. Cleveland (need new name) fan Posted: June 16, 2018 at 08:04 PM (#5693577)
Because the punishment for a penalty usually doesn't fit the crime (it's usually much too harsh). If 3 or more penalties are awarded per game, the most viable offense will be the one designed to draw penalties, and offensive players will do everything possible to create contact in the box. It's already happening to some degree (Ronaldo the other day, among many other cases). It's sure to get worse. There's simply no way for defensive players to just "not commit fouls in the box", especially when offensive players get better at drawing them.


Then change the rules to make the penalty fit the severity of the foul (e.g., option to give a corner kick instead of a penalty kick, make the box smaller, option to give a yellow card instead of a penalty kick etc.) instead of just ignoring fouls.

The way the game has historically been called, the ref doesn't "roll the dice", but rather weighs a number of factors in determining whether contact that would normally be a foul elsewhere on the field is sufficiently deserving of the severe punishment that is a penalty.


You use a lot of words to agree with me that the refs are using a penalty dice to make decisions. You make is sound noble, but its still an arbitrary decision on what rules to enforce when.

If some player dives blow the whistle, give him a yellow card, and give the other team the kick.


Agree. For this to work, dives must be ruthlessly controlled.
   333. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 08:16 PM (#5693579)
Then change the rules to make the penalty fit the severity of the foul (e.g., option to give a corner kick instead of a penalty kick, make the box smaller, option to give a yellow card instead of a penalty kick etc.) instead of just ignoring fouls.
Yes, we were talking about this above. The best solution would probably be to change the rules.

lot of words to agree with me that the refs are using a penalty dice to make decisions. You make is sound noble, but its still an arbitrary decision on what rules to enforce when.
C'mon man. Just because the refs don't call fouls the way they are written in the rulebook doesn't make it arbitrary. This is true in virtually every sport. Now, if you want to say there is too much discretion for the refs because they have to balance multiple factors, and because there are too many variables it's not possible for calls to be made with sufficient consistency across games, etc., then I don't disagree with you. I would definitely prefer the refs to have less discretion in general, but the problem is that the way the current rules are written they need the discretion in order to not have the game be decided on a parade of penalties.
   334. vortex of dissipation Posted: June 16, 2018 at 08:19 PM (#5693583)
What do people think of the announcers in this Peru-Denmark game. It’s taken me a bit to get used to the heavily accented English but the enthusiasm is just infectious and fun. The play by play guy is a real life version of the dude in the Simpsons episode and that’s a good thing I think.


I thought it was horrendous - quite literally the worst sports announcing I've ever heard. Intrusive, obnoxious, and offering no insight into the game whatsoever. It sounded like two drunks arguing, heard through a motel wall. I ended up muting it, and watched most of the game in silence.
   335. Cleveland (need new name) fan Posted: June 16, 2018 at 08:20 PM (#5693586)
In one of today's games, a player fouled the opponent just outside the box and got a yellow card. The announcers started praising how the defender made a "professional" (iow deliberate) foul in order to stop the offensive player from getting a decent chance in the box. At least outside the box, the professional foul results in some form of penalty (free kick, yellow card), but if you have to ignore "soft" fouls in the box than it just encourages defenders to make these fouls because there is no penalty at all. It is much easier to play defense if you can commit "soft" fouls without penalty.
   336. McCoy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 08:22 PM (#5693587)
This is way wide of the mark. Only a small minority of plays currently involve no contact at all, where a player can be censured for a dive. The vast majority are plays where the offensive player helps create contact looking to go down. Many of them are very gray-areas calls. It doesn't do any good to say that half the calls go against the offense and the other half against the defense (very roughly, fair in basketball), because even 100 fouls called on the offensive player don't make up for a single penalty given (well, maybe 100 would be close). The punishment is wildly asymmetric, unlike in basketball.

And teams already look for fouls in the area (*cough* Ronaldo yesterday *cough*) with defenders (mostly) trying to do everything they can to not have a call drawn against them. It's already a significant problem and tripling the number of penalty calls is going to make it much worse.


Sure but soccer scores aren't 12-8. It's 1-0, 2-1, 3-1 and scores like that so the idea that flopping in the box is a problem is kind off the mark right now. I'd rather the score be something like 6-4 with no penalty kicks. If they can figure that out kudos to them.
   337. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 08:29 PM (#5693589)
At least outside the box, the professional foul results in some form of penalty (free kick, yellow card
A professional foul in the box is always a penalty. So much so, that no one is stupid enough to do it (other than maybe Umtiti the other day).
   338. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 08:34 PM (#5693596)
Sure but soccer scores aren't 12-8. It's 1-0, 2-1, 3-1 and scores like that so the idea that flopping in the box is a problem is kind off the mark right now.
If all the strong penalty shouts had been called, and penalties had been scored at the historic 80% rate in the WC, we'd currently have roughly 1/3 of the total goals scored in this tournament be via penalty. Most soccer fans would probably consider that to be way too high.
   339. Cleveland (need new name) fan Posted: June 16, 2018 at 08:38 PM (#5693602)
C'mon man. Just because the refs don't call fouls the way they are written in the rulebook doesn't make it arbitrary. This is true in virtually every sport. Now, if you want to say there is too much discretion for the refs because they have to balance multiple factors, and because there are too many variables it's not possible for calls to be made with sufficient consistency across games, etc., then I don't disagree with you. I would definitely prefer the refs to have less discretion in general, but the problem is that the way the current rules are written they need the discretion in order to not have the game be decided on a parade of penalties.


Peace. I don't think that we are that far apart in actual philosophy. As a rule, I seem to be more offended by discretionary reffing than most. I stopped watching basketball years ago because I couldn't stand how they handle fouls (especially late in the game), I don't watch hockey because the middle of the third quarter and later becomes anything goes, and I can't wait for automated balls and strikes.

The basketball issue really is the pits. Although I am a Cleveland sports fan and I root for the Cavs to win, I don't think that I've seen more than a hour total of Lebron's entire playing career.
   340. It was something about the man-spider and sodomy, Posted: June 16, 2018 at 09:11 PM (#5693623)

I thought it was horrendous - quite literally the worst sports announcing I've ever heard. Intrusive, obnoxious, and offering no insight into the game whatsoever. It sounded like two drunks arguing, heard through a motel wall. I ended up muting it, and watched most of the game in silence.


Obviously, you haven't had the pleasure of hearing Ray Hudson call vomit words during La Liga games on BeIn ...

MAGISTERIAL!!!

Also, how the hell are vuvuzelas a thing again???
   341. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 16, 2018 at 09:43 PM (#5693640)
If I had to rank the penalty shouts/calls that I saw closely at this point, I would go:

Umtiti (hehehe)
Croatian player tackled
Cueva (Peru, the one given)
Flores (Peru, not given)
Argentina over the back (Messi's miss)
Griezmann
Ronaldo/Pavon tie

These are just the ones I saw (not including the handball against Iceland, which I've seen given at times, but seems like too little to be on this list). There was no doubt even more contact that I didn't see that could/should be given as a penalty if Ronaldo's could be given. I didn't watch all of the Russia/S.A. game, any of the Morocco/Iran game, and only about half of each of the other games on Thursday/Friday. Unless they start calling a penalty on pretty much all contact, there is going to remain a ton of inconsistency in the system.
   342. Jose is Absurdly Unemployed Posted: June 16, 2018 at 10:10 PM (#5693659)
My issue on penalties is that defenders get so much leeway in the box relative to attacking players. There are so many tricky tack fouls called on attackers in the box. I don’t want a penalty parade but I want attackers given the same freedom defenders often get.

At the same time if VAR results in more penalties short term but less contact (e.g. tugging and shoving in the midst of a bunch of people on set pieces) long term I think that’s a good thing.
   343. Jose is Absurdly Unemployed Posted: June 16, 2018 at 10:12 PM (#5693662)
One thing I think soccer should do that would help is go to a 2 ref system like hockey uses. I think asking one ref to see everything that happens is just too much and unnecessary.

In general though what I’ve seen so far has been a good and entertaining tournament. I thought the Peru/Denmark game was a hell of a game and generally it’s been a bit more open than I remember 2010 and 2014 being.
   344. It was something about the man-spider and sodomy, Posted: June 16, 2018 at 10:22 PM (#5693665)
   345. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 10:37 PM (#5693671)
I thought the Peru/Denmark game was a hell of a game and generally it’s been a bit more open than I remember 2010 and 2014 being.


No Italy and no Greece will help with that.
   346. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:46 AM (#5693781)
Wow. Mitrovic just had to stay on his feet and fall over the defender who had totally committed. Would have been a sure penalty. Instead, he couldn't get a shot off and tripped over his own feet.
   347. Jose is Absurdly Unemployed Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:57 AM (#5693784)
I thought the five added minutes was a bit much but they played about 2 minutes after all the tomfoolery.
   348. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 17, 2018 at 09:57 AM (#5693785)
Very few upsets so far. Iceland drawing Argentina is so far the only important surprise. The other one was Iran over Morocco.

Costa Rica showed some spark at times, but were clearly inferior to Serbia.

UEFA still hasn't lost a game.
   349. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 17, 2018 at 10:07 AM (#5693787)
They changed to Pogba goal to an own goal, so now we have 3 already. Record for a WC is 4 I think.

Better question is why did they change it... I thought so long as the initial shot was on frame it didn't matter if it was deflected. Maybe they decided Pogba's touch wasn't a shot that was going to put the ball on frame.
   350. strong silence Posted: June 17, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5693804)
What is impressive about this German team? Werner is not as good as the guy he replaced. Hasbeens Ozick and Khedira. No Lahm. Mueller isn't anything special any more is he?

Why are they a favorite? Is it just Aura? The System?

Mexico can take this game.
   351. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 17, 2018 at 11:36 AM (#5693807)
Yeah I would agree they aren't quite as good as 4 years ago. But still very good. Mexico have been really bright, but they are going to have to get something from closer than 8 yards outside the box, if they want to trouble Neuer. The final ball hasn't been there. One too many touch syndrome I think.

I think the main factor you are missing, is that none of the other teams feel that impressive either. Spain is in disarray. Brazil seems meh by Brazil standards. Who is going to challenge them for favourites? Belgium?

And yeah part of it is Aura and Mystique doing their thing: Football is a simple game. Twenty-two men chase a ball for 90 minutes and at the end, the Germans always win...

And as I type this, Mexico finally gets a close range shot: 1-0!
   352. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 17, 2018 at 11:37 AM (#5693808)
Germany had been playing an extremely risky style and it finally cost them. They've been very vulnerable on the break.
   353. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 17, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5693812)
Time wasting already? Sheesh Mexico.
   354. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 17, 2018 at 11:41 AM (#5693814)
Germany had been playing an extremely risky style and it finally cost them. They've been very vulnerable on the break.

Yeah, but give credit to Mexico for being willing to leave men forward, while dealing well with the German attack, and not play 9-10 men behind the ball.
   355. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 17, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5693815)
Time wasting already? Sheesh Mexico.

I actually think their keeper has been lucky to not get booked earlier. He held the ball for a good minute at one point. But it is probably smart to try and shorten the game. Increase variance when you are the underdog. And Germany have more stamina and endurance.
   356. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 17, 2018 at 11:43 AM (#5693816)

Yeah, but give credit to Mexico for being willing to leave men forward, while dealing well with the German attack, and not play 9-10 men behind the ball.
Definitely. I mean in response to that, Germany was playing a very risky style. They had plenty of warning before the goal on earlier breaks.
   357. strong silence Posted: June 17, 2018 at 11:53 AM (#5693820)
This can help explain why Germany is a favorite. http://revisionisthistory.com/episodes/06-my-little-hundred-million. Starting about 10 minutes in.

Gladwell calls soccer a "weak link" game. Germany's 11th player is much better than other teams' 11th best, and some teams best player.

In this game, after 1/2 has been played, Germany is behind and their slow midfield has been exposed by Mexico's counterattack.
   358. strong silence Posted: June 17, 2018 at 11:56 AM (#5693821)
I've been a fan of Marco Reus. I hope he gets in.
   359. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 17, 2018 at 11:57 AM (#5693824)
Sincerely don't understand soccer fans sometimes. MCoA seems to be calling for a penalty on the Boateng block very early in the game, where he made a clean block of the shot before taking out the player on the follow through.
   360. strong silence Posted: June 17, 2018 at 11:59 AM (#5693826)
MCoA? Who is that?
   361. strong silence Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5693828)
and Germany have more stamina and endurance.

I'm not sure about this. Why do you think so?
   362. tshipman Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:02 PM (#5693829)
I think the main factor you are missing, is that none of the other teams feel that impressive either. Spain is in disarray. Brazil seems meh by Brazil standards. Who is going to challenge them for favourites? Belgium?


I don't get how high your standards are for Brazil if you think they seem meh.
   363. tshipman Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:03 PM (#5693830)
MCoA? Who is that?


Matt Clement of Alexandria--used to post here, is the guy behind xGoal (I think?), writes on soccer semi-professionally to professionally.
   364. Mr Dashwood Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:05 PM (#5693832)
1986, the original 'Group of Death' (in English usage) -- Germany started with a 1-1 draw against Uruguay, falling behind early, and still managed to be the tournament's runner-up.

YouTube has the full match here.
   365. strong silence Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5693835)
1986 was a very disappointing final and hugely cynical. People who put Maradona above Messi because Messi lacks a world championship conveniently neglect that Maradona's resume includes an embarrassing finals loss.

Edit: Oops. I'm thinking of 1990.
   366. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:15 PM (#5693837)
God they should have iced it there. 2v1.
   367. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5693838)
I'm not sure about this. Why do you think so?

Because Germany doesn't get tired. They never get tired. They are machines like that.

And also because Mexico is playing a much more higher energy style of football. Lots of counters, lots of sprints. Whereas Germany is mostly letting the ball do the work.

I don't get how high your standards are for Brazil if you think they seem meh.

My standard for Brazil is "comfortably the best team in the world." They have been that for most of my life. They aren't right now.
   368. strong silence Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:20 PM (#5693839)
It was 2 v 2. Do I win Nierporent Pedant Points? He he
   369. strong silence Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:24 PM (#5693841)
Comfortably the best team? In my lifetime:

1980s. No
1990s. Yes, except 1998.
2000s. Yes
2010s. No.
   370. Mr Dashwood Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5693842)
Since the Two Germanies played each other in the 1974 competition (and West Germany lost), I think the (West) Germans have only lost three first-round matches.

1982 vs Algeria (losing finalist)
1986 vs Denmark (losing finalist)
2010 vs Serbia (semi-finalist, won third-place playoff)
   371. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:26 PM (#5693843)
Yeah that's probably a bit too high a standard for Brazil. Best national team in the world might be fair. And they are right now most likely.
   372. strong silence Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:27 PM (#5693844)
VAR on offsides?
   373. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:28 PM (#5693846)
We're going to see a lot of those plays, where the offensive player creates contact and then goes down.
   374. strong silence Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:29 PM (#5693848)
And the offensive player is allowed to stop and get run over.
   375. Mr Dashwood Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5693849)
Germany are beginning to impose themselves on this match. It's likely to come down to who has the most stamina.
   376. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:34 PM (#5693850)
Comfortably the best team? In my lifetime:

1980s. No
1990s. Yes, except 1998.
2000s. Yes
2010s. No.

Born in '82, but when I say 'in my life' I really mean once I was old enough to follow sports to some degree. So around 89-90 I would say. And I would have them at a yes in '98, but I always thought that France team was overrated. That is most of my life to me.
   377. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:34 PM (#5693851)
We're going to see a lot of those plays, where the offensive player creates contact and then goes down.

We have always seen a lot of these plays. This is just confirmation bias.
   378. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:36 PM (#5693852)
Germany are beginning to impose themselves on this match. It's likely to come down to who has the most stamina.

Mexico still dangerous on the break, but yeah, they are running on fumes.
   379. strong silence Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:36 PM (#5693853)
Too many shots going over the bar today. Probably a result of nerves/lack of composure.
   380. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:36 PM (#5693854)
We have always seen a lot of these plays. This is just confirmation bias.
We're going to see more of them with VAR. The more penalties called, the more incentive to try to draw them.
   381. strong silence Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:39 PM (#5693856)
Mexico never practices 3 v 2 and 2 v 1. They never expect to have those opportunities. Explains their complete incompetence.
   382. Mr Dashwood Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:39 PM (#5693857)
Immediately after I wrote 375, the Germans started to look rattled like they did in the first quarter-hour.
   383. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5693859)
Immediately after I wrote 375, the Germans started to look rattled like they did in the first quarter-hour.

But Mexico just don't look like they have the same legs on these breaks that they did in the first half. Not getting behind the defense, and having to settle for poor passes, and long distance shots.
   384. Mr Dashwood Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:44 PM (#5693860)
Not getting behind the defense, and having to settle for poor passes, and long distance shots.

These breaks use up valuable time, though. The Mexicans don't have to score, they just have to keep the Germans from being able to score, which they can't do without the ball.

Calcio 101.
   385. strong silence Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:50 PM (#5693861)
Mexico history fans. Is this their greatest WC victory?
   386. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:50 PM (#5693862)
Germany can still advance from the group, but if they only get 2nd spot, there will likely be a Brazil/Germany round of 16. That would be crazy.
   387. Mr Dashwood Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:51 PM (#5693863)
The Mexican back line was doing well there in that 90-92 mins, constantly putting the German forwards offside so the Germans couldn't get the pass in.

Mexico deserved the full three points here, in the end. They held up under the phases of German dominance, and rattled them at the start and finish.
   388. Mr Dashwood Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:53 PM (#5693864)
Is this their greatest WC victory?

Not a thing one wants to say about one's group rounds.
   389. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5693865)
In a moral sense, yes Mexico "deserved" it. The more relevant question is how many times would Mexico win if both teams played the same style 100 times? Considering how vulnerable Germany looked, probably a fair number, maybe more than Germany. Still, the mean result would almost certainly be a draw.
   390. strong silence Posted: June 17, 2018 at 12:56 PM (#5693866)
I agree Gerald but they have never made it even been to the semis. They beat the defending champion.
   391. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 17, 2018 at 01:07 PM (#5693868)
So there is a fairly audible VAR shout from the masses on that Hummels play in the box. If it were reviewed, would it have been a penalty? (My guess is no, but I'm really not sure.)

I don't think we are ending up with much more consistency (see the uncalled Peru penalty yesterday v the Griezmann play), but rather a second level of discretion on the part of the VAR officials, and overall more penalties. It's not an improvement in my mind.
   392. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: June 17, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5693870)
Yeah, Mexico was obviously gassed in the second half, but they probably should have had more than one goal by that point.

I enjoyed the fact that the ref actually called a foul on Kroos in the first half for the 'I think I was fouled, so I'm picking up the ball' play.
   393. J. Sosa Posted: June 17, 2018 at 01:26 PM (#5693876)
Re: VAR

I don’t like it. Call me a dinosaur, but I just think all it does is add another layer of confusion and potential corruption. And diving. Oh the diving.

Re: Neur.

Was it my imagination or was he fairly crippled? Looked a few times like an old man. I don’t think he is healthy at all.

Re: Mexico

Played great. Amazing effort. Xg had them ahead but like MCoA noted they also blew a ton of breaks. Felt like a 2-0 or 3-0.

Re: Low

I thought he got this match really wrong. I am just a dude on the internet, but he played too many passengers this match and everything was down that right side. Very predictable and Mexico looked comfortable. Also this match was a pretty good data point that team selection overall was flawed. Reus shouldn’t have gone for sure and maybe a couple other guys.

Sane not going was criminal. Brandt created maybe their best chance as a sub (a badly late sub) but then they didn’t go back to him and resumed pounding the right with Kimmich, Ozil, and Muller. No width. Too congested played right into Mexico’s hands who just astutely brought in a couple of brawlers to jam everything. The gaps Germany left the whole match in general defensively was astounding as well.

Re: Overall match entertainment

I have really enjoyed several of these matches. It has been fun.
   394. spivey Posted: June 17, 2018 at 02:00 PM (#5693888)
I unfortunately missed the match but Germany is really unathletic in the middle of the pitch. I do think Werner is better than Gomez/Klose from 2-4 years ago but they’re not athletic enough for me. Gundo and Sane should be starting for me and they’d look way more athletic. I mean, I guess Sane has sucked for the national team but their wingers are Muller and Draxler. Muller is below average athletically for that position and drifts inside a bunch. Draxler had quite a poor year as I recall.

I think Reus is really good, I would probably play him in Ozils spot and get Gundoghan starting and probably Brandt too. Germany is a good tournament team and losing one game is not the end of the world. But it feels like Germany is not as dynamic or good as they could be.
   395. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 17, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5693898)
Had to work for most of the first half. I only saw the last 10 minutes, where Brazil seemed to be only going through the motions. They probably need a reminder from the coach at halftime that the game isn't over just yet.
   396. Mr Dashwood Posted: June 17, 2018 at 03:10 PM (#5693902)
They probably need a reminder from the coach at halftime that the game isn't over just yet.

Coach wasn't emphatic enough.
   397. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 17, 2018 at 03:10 PM (#5693903)
Apparently Brazil didn't get that talking to. Maybe they'll wake up now.
   398. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 17, 2018 at 03:15 PM (#5693904)
Hummels called out the German tactics that were used in the game earlier today, likely because he was put on an island with only Boateng to help him, repeatedly. The tactics probably made sense for a team chasing the game in the second half, but were recklessly employed from the opening whistle.
   399. I am going to be Frank Posted: June 17, 2018 at 03:16 PM (#5693905)
I also did not watch Germany, but neither Kroos nor Khedira are defensive midfielders. Khedira used to be plenty athletic but he's older and has had a lot of injuries. Goretzka a defensive midfielder, right? Maybe play a midfield three, like Zidane decided to do once he put in Casemeiro with Modric and Kroos, but then you have to drop one of the front four.
   400. It was something about the man-spider and sodomy, Posted: June 17, 2018 at 03:55 PM (#5693911)
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