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Tuesday, May 29, 2018

OT: Soccer Thread (World Cup)

We’ve gotten through Champions League and most of the relegation/promotion stuff so we may as well focus on the World Cup. And what a World Cup, Buffon playing his sixth, Pulisic making his WC debut, quality on-site reporting from Fox and two time Copa America champs Chile just part of what should make for an amazing tournament!  Plus of course the the family-friendly, inclusive atmosphere sure to be fostered by the Russians.

Group A - Russia, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Uruguay
Group B - Portugal, Spain, Morocco, Iran
Group C - France, Australia, Peru, Denmark
Group D - Argentina, Iceland, Croatia, Nigeria
Group E - Brazil, Switzerland, Costa Rica, Serbia
Group F - Germany, Mexico, Sweden, South Korea
Group G - Belgium, Panama, Tunisia, England
Group H - Poland, Senegal, Colombia, Japan

Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:57 AM | 3354 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, soccer

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   501. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:47 PM (#5694615)
They could have left Sterling on if Rashford was going to biff that chance like that and saved themselves the trouble ...
   502. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:50 PM (#5694619)
Harry!
   503. McCoy Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:50 PM (#5694622)
Should be like 8-0
   504. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:51 PM (#5694623)
HURRI-KANE!!!

Hah, you twats, that's for the muggings!
   505. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:52 PM (#5694626)
Whew! Heartbreak for Tunisia, but I doubt anyone would say they deserved a draw today.
   506. zack Posted: June 18, 2018 at 03:58 PM (#5694629)
Is the 3-1-4-2 or whatever you call it the standard formation for this team or is it meant just for beating minnows? Seems like it'd ask a lot of the wingers.

Also Ruben Loftus-Cheek is an Ukko-Pekka Luukkonen tier name.
   507. vortex of dissipation Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:03 PM (#5694634)
I'll take the three points. I'm drained. I think I get more emotionally involved in an England World Cup match than any sporting event except for the Reds playing in the World Series...
   508. Textbook Editor Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:04 PM (#5694635)
#506--I've seen it called a 3-5-2 and a 3-2-3-2... But yeah, and when the wingers are Young and Trippier and one of the back 3 is Walker... It's asking a lot. Against good teams like Belgium I think they're going to get torched.

   509. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:05 PM (#5694638)
The one time they *don't* physically assault Kane...
   510. jmurph Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:09 PM (#5694643)
My main beef with England's formation is that Walker is an elite two-way RB/WB and as far as I can tell from what little of England I've seen, this system minimizes his skills entirely.
   511. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:10 PM (#5694647)
I was wondering if Tunisia would have any xG. They did: 0.1.
   512. Textbook Editor Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:14 PM (#5694651)
#510--I think the idea is that Walker plays roughly this role with Man City, so he's comfortable and then you get Trippier's very good crossing ability into the lineup (which is better than Walker's). It's sort of a silk purse out of a sow's ear situation.

Young is the weak link here, IMO. I get Rose can't go for 90 yet, but Young offers almost nothing width wise because he's forever cutting in, so teams can just overload the other way and make it very hard for Trippier to do what he does well.

Again, I get Rose can't go 90, but at 60 minutes they had to make the Rose for Young switch to open up that side of the field.
   513. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:18 PM (#5694654)
Walker plays roughly this role with Man City, so he's comfortable
Rio Ferdinand said that the incident occurred because Walker's positioning was poor--he was facing the wrong way (toward the goal). It seems Walker knew the attacker was behind him but didn't know exactly where he was, and threw his arm back to keep the attacker from getting position on him, unfortunately making contact with his face in the process.
   514. Textbook Editor Posted: June 18, 2018 at 04:25 PM (#5694661)
#513--there were a lot of times Walker was the lone CB out there because of runs forward. Against any kind of decent opposition that's a complete disaster/red card waiting to happen. On the one hand, it's the cards Southgate has because it's not like Toby or Vertonghen are walking through the door and putting on an England shirt, but on the other hand... you DO have Eric Dier sitting right there, who's played in a back 3... I don't get the reluctance to play Dier as a classic CB in the middle of a back 3 when they really sort of need one.

I mean, this is liable to be a fun run to the round of 16, but there's just no way England gets past first contact with any kind of decent offensive team.

Edit: D'oh--Walker, not Rose...
   515. J. Sosa Posted: June 18, 2018 at 05:46 PM (#5694720)
Watching the Walker play live I thought it was a really dumb play. I’m not sure what he was doing, but he didn’t seem to have any idea where his mark was. That’s generally... bad.

I don’t really get the formation either. Seems overly complicated. If you have to play Young anyway, I don’t see why you would want to shoehorn Trippier and Walker both in too.

I would probably just go with Tottenham’s usual formation and play a double pivot with Dier and Henderson since Alli and Kane are already used to playing together. Would lack creativity in midfield but they don’t really have a creative type anyway. It is kind of a pickle because I think Sterling and Alli are both best running in behind Kane but Sterling would have to play wider in that scenario. Basically England is pretty limited in what they can do formation wise. So maybe Southgate has it right.

I kind of like that Stones Maguire pairing.
   516. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: June 18, 2018 at 06:47 PM (#5694738)
I dunno, I think you have it right initially Sosa. Trippier kind of sucks and I don't understand why he's playing. It's even more baffling as it moves one of their better players (Walker) out of his best position, and also means they have an extra defender rather than an extra midfielder/attacker who on pure talent is surely better than Trippier.

It seems like 4-2-3-1 or 4-3-3 would make a lot of sense here. I'd probably do 4-2-3-1. I'd have considered bringing Lallana - he's got a bit of the ability to breakdown a team with a pass, moreso than most of their other guys who are mostly brute force.
   517. PreservedFish Posted: June 18, 2018 at 06:50 PM (#5694739)
So how does this team compare to the old group with Lampard, Gerrard, Rooney etc that I was once so familiar with? Those teams seemed like they had a lot of legit worldwide stars but maybe that wasn't correct and I was overrating the EPL's quality.
   518. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 18, 2018 at 06:51 PM (#5694741)
Iceland is now favored over Nigeria--the odds are quite close though. All the African teams have lost so far, but Senegal has their easiest game tomorrow against Japan. Egypt still gets to play Saudi Arabia of course, and Tunisia has Panama.
   519. J. Sosa Posted: June 18, 2018 at 07:53 PM (#5694770)
Re: 517

All three of them were great players but they all tended to be best in a similar role. Gerrard could play box to box or on the right but he was best in a free role behind the striker. Rooney could play in a few spots but was probably best as a 10. Lampard was best ghosting in to the box. He rarely gets mentioned, but the best player of that generation was maybe Ashley Cole. He had a run of a few years where he was maybe the world’s best left back. They also had Carrick who was a good player, and Terry and Carragher who were solid. I think those teams were much more talented, but there was a lot of overlap.

In terms of this England team, they have a few good players. Maybe only one truly great one though. Kane is one of the two or three best pure classic strikers in the world. Sterling, despite his limitations, also gets in good spots consistently. Alli is really good. But I do think the golden generation really was legit. The club teams lead by Gerrard, Lampard, and Rooney were routinely in the latter stages of the Champions League. They had non english stars on their club teams sure, but those three guys were the best or among the best players on those teams.
   520. Textbook Editor Posted: June 19, 2018 at 06:09 AM (#5694976)
I think those teams were much more talented, but there was a lot of overlap.


That seemed to be the problem in a nutshell--none of the players were able to be dropped because of their talent level, but including all of their most talented players in a starting XI made them unbalanced/possibly worse off.

I'm not sure there's a fix to the problem (when it happens on an international side), as the main "fix" is to drop talented players for less talented players who can "do a job" and that sort of thing usually leads to a manager getting fired.

One problem with dropping Trippier is who takes corners/set pieces in his absence? (He seemed to take the majority of them, with Young taking the rest.) He is a decent crosser of the ball (and to my eye much better than Young), and in his absence you have way more Ashley Young than I think you'd want.

I'm not sure the formation they play is the best they have available, either, but it seems one starting point is they want Walker/Trippier/Young all in the lineup, and once you settle on that as a desired end goal, I'm not sure there's a lot of other formations that you can run out that makes sense *and* provides speed cover (Walker) for the other two rather slow-ish CBs (Stones/Maguire). But I think Henderson would be overrun in a game against any more talented team in that formation.

We'll see how they set up against Belgium. My hunch is they'll go more to the 4-2-3-1 for that game, and include Dier along with Henderson and probably drop Trippier...
   521. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 08:09 AM (#5694988)
That's a hell of a start. I just got to work and was only half watching while making my tea, was the red card for a handball in the box and not for a professional foul outside the box?
   522. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 08:30 AM (#5694995)
I'm more surprised than you, because I read the schedule wrong and thought Japan was playing Senegal this morning.
   523. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 08:35 AM (#5694997)
Cuadrado off now?

Colombia have played pretty well since going down a man but it's hard to imagine the energy being there for 90 minutes.

More complaining about Fox. The graphic simply shows "Colombia playing with 10 men" with no explanation. They used the same graphic the other day when some team was playing down a man while a player got treatment. How hard is it to put a little red card on the graphic or something like that?
   524. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 08:37 AM (#5694998)
The DOGSO rule still exists for intentional infractions (deliberate and intentional denial of clear goal scoring opportunity, or something). Play is here (for now).

edit: yeah, it was handball in the box. The Suarez maneuver, except with 3 minutes gone in the game, instead of three seconds left.

   525. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 08:43 AM (#5694999)
Yeah I don't dispute that it was a handball and a red, I just had thought he was giving the red for the player outside the box taking down the Japan player.

OK, it's official. I am ALL IN on Jorge Perez-Navarro.
   526. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 08:43 AM (#5695000)
That was not much of a foul by Japan which led to the goal. Nice goal though.
   527. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 08:48 AM (#5695002)
The announcers are saying that there were at least three minutes between foul and penalty kick, yet there is only 1 minute of time added to the half. Par for the course. Too much else to complain about this year to worry about the timekeeping.
   528. bunyon Posted: June 19, 2018 at 09:01 AM (#5695004)
I've never felt like timekeeping is a strength of soccer at any level. The added time seems to usually be a WAG, as often way off as close. I assume this is because different timekeepers count different things as dead time.
   529. bunyon Posted: June 19, 2018 at 09:02 AM (#5695005)
I also think wanting more details on "playing 10 men" is a little odd. I mean, they only show the score, they don't list how the goals happened in that little box. If you want more details, you're only a click away.
   530. bunyon Posted: June 19, 2018 at 09:05 AM (#5695008)
Of course, as soon as I post 529, FOX adds the detail.
   531. Scott Lange Posted: June 19, 2018 at 09:12 AM (#5695013)
I've never felt like timekeeping is a strength of soccer at any level. The added time seems to usually be a WAG, as often way off as close. I assume this is because different timekeepers count different things as dead time.


It seems like at a high level it wouldn't be too much effort to have an official off the field to track every second the ball is dead and literally add that much time. You could then reduce the clock time from 90 minutes to whatever the typical "ball-in-play" time is in a normal game. Seems like it would completely solve the time wasting problem with minimal side effects. It'll never happen, of course.
   532. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 09:13 AM (#5695014)
I also think wanting more details on "playing 10 men" is a little odd. I mean, they only show the score, they don't list how the goals happened in that little box. If you want more details, you're only a click away.


Well it's relevant and important. Playing with 10 men for a couple of minutes while some dude changes a blood-stained shirt or gets his head wrapped is one thing. Spending the next 85 minutes down a man because of a red card is very different.
   533. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 19, 2018 at 09:28 AM (#5695023)
It seems like at a high level it wouldn't be too much effort to have an official off the field to track every second the ball is dead and literally add that much time. You could then reduce the clock time from 90 minutes to whatever the typical "ball-in-play" time is in a normal game. Seems like it would completely solve the time wasting problem with minimal side effects. It'll never happen, of course.

They are never changing it from 90 minutes. That would be like baseball changing from 9 innings. Just not happening. And the change would result in 10+ minutes a half of stoppage time.

And it would not even reduce time wasting that much. Players can and do get booked for wasting time on dead balls. So a lot of the kind of time wasting you see is the keeper gathering a through ball at his feet. Waiting 15 seconds for an opponent to run in his vicinity to pick it up. Stroll across the penalty box, fake a throw or a roll a few times. Put the ball down at his feet. Take 3-4 short dribbles. Before finally playing the ball. The ball isn't technically dead during any of that.
   534. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 09:35 AM (#5695030)
I never understand why time wasting in soccer gets criticized but similar things in other sports don't. Football teams can and do use 39 of the 40 seconds on the play clock before running a play, it's how the game works. I would like to see refs be a bit more aggressive giving yellows and adding time in close games but generally I don't have a problem with the time keeping. My biggest gripe is when players have "injuries" or other such things during stoppage time and it's not added back.

That said the decision to add only one minute in the first half today is perplexing to say the least.
   535. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 09:41 AM (#5695035)
I think about 20 of the 35 goals scored in this tournament have now come off set pieces. About equal number of corners, free kicks, and penalty kicks.
   536. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 10:00 AM (#5695059)
Is that not typical for these types of tournaments? I'd think that would be an area of risk because teams wouldn't really have settled into their defensive organization on set pieces.
   537. Scott Lange Posted: June 19, 2018 at 10:02 AM (#5695060)
And it would not even reduce time wasting that much. Players can and do get booked for wasting time on dead balls. So a lot of the kind of time wasting you see is the keeper gathering a through ball at his feet. Waiting 15 seconds for an opponent to run in his vicinity to pick it up. Stroll across the penalty box, fake a throw or a roll a few times. Put the ball down at his feet. Take 3-4 short dribbles. Before finally playing the ball. The ball isn't technically dead during any of that.


I don't actually mind any of that stuff. To me, that's all "in the game." The opposing team has the ability to contest it. Only the true dead-ball stuff - the stalling on throw ins and free kicks, the fake injuries, etc - bothers me.

I never understand why time wasting in soccer gets criticized but similar things in other sports don't. Football teams can and do use 39 of the 40 seconds on the play clock before running a play, it's how the game works.


It's because stuff like "goalie dribbles until an opponent makes him pick it up" is "how the game works," but "fake cramp in the 85th minute" isn't. Or shouldn't be. Football teams can run 39 of 40 seconds, but they can't lie down on the ground at the 39th second and kill off the next 2 minutes.
   538. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: June 19, 2018 at 10:12 AM (#5695067)
Red card plus penalty is such a brutal punishment, but having someone block a sure goal with their arm may warrant it. In any event, dude should have just let it go. A reasonably big upset, though, I think.
   539. PreservedFish Posted: June 19, 2018 at 10:14 AM (#5695070)
Did that dude really sneak the ball under the wall for the free kick goal? That's awesome. Is that a recognized strategy?
   540. PreservedFish Posted: June 19, 2018 at 10:15 AM (#5695072)
I never understand why time wasting in soccer gets criticized but similar things in other sports don't. Football teams can and do use 39 of the 40 seconds on the play clock before running a play, it's how the game works.


Because there are no rules. If there are no rules regarding time wasting, it's only the sportsmanship of the competitors that regulates anything. In football, the rule is 40 seconds, so you can use every bit of them.
   541. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 10:20 AM (#5695077)
Did that dude really sneak the ball under the wall for the free kick goal? That's awesome. Is that a recognized strategy?


Yes and yes. You don't see it a lot but it does happen. It's a great strategy when you are really close to the box because getting it up and down in 20 yards is tough.
   542. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 10:21 AM (#5695080)
Is that not typical for these types of tournaments? I'd think that would be an area of risk because teams wouldn't really have settled into their defensive organization on set pieces.
I never tabulated before, but probably yeah. This year seems maybe a bit higher than normal though.
   543. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 10:26 AM (#5695085)
Verified account @90min_Football
1h1 hour ago

There have already been more goals from direct free-kicks in this #WorldCup than all of the 2014 tournament


Here's the breakdown;

⚽️ 7 Penalties ⚽️ 4 Direct free-kicks ⚽️ 4 Corners ⚽️ 3 Indirect free-kicks

FWIW at this stage of the 2014 WC there had been 5 penalties scored.
   544. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 10:28 AM (#5695088)
Someone (Michael Cox?) was talking about the ball for this tournament. He was saying that while it moves in the air it seems to move in a predictable fashion rather than the fairly random movement the last couple of WC balls have had. I remember 2010 having a lot of complaining about the beach ball nature of it and free kicks regularly soaring into the stratosphere.
   545. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 11:06 AM (#5695122)
Only 4 corners? I thought I counted 6 or 7. Maybe some bounced around a few times first? Which ones below are wrong...

Japan
England (2)
Switzerland
Spain ?
Uruguay
Russia ?

edit: Spain looks wrong.
edit2: Russia got one that was basically off a corner. The ball came back out first but was crossed right back in with all the big guys still crashing the box.
edit 3: Uruguay was not a corner, but was still a set piece, so should still have been at least number 19.
   546. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 11:14 AM (#5695135)
Another source;


Gracenote Live
‏Verified account @GracenoteLive
2h2 hours ago

Set-piece goals at #WorldCup :
2018: 21 from 34 goals = 62%
2014: 48 from 171 goals = 28%
   547. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 11:18 AM (#5695139)
heh. That's insane. I would definitely count it as at least 5 corners (including Russia). There have been 35 goals though, I know that.
   548. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 11:22 AM (#5695143)
2 hours ago probably was before Japan's winner.
   549. Howie Menckel Posted: June 19, 2018 at 11:22 AM (#5695145)
I've never felt like timekeeping is a strength of soccer at any level.

iirc, the World Cup until it came to the U.S. in 1994 didn't even make public how much extra time there was after 90 minutes. so the players just chased the ball around in limbo, and then a magic wheel spun (or so it seemed) - and bam, the game was over.

do American sports overdo replays and sometimes timing issues? yes

was the former World Cup scenario with timing comically inept with a hefty whiff of corruption, at the very least? yes

is the current timing situation absurd given that we are in 2018? yes
   550. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 11:24 AM (#5695146)
In that case my total is the same as that tally. 5/7/7, 19 out of 35. Still I might have missed one or two, and maybe the low tally is not counting Russia as a corner but the high tally is.
   551. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 11:32 AM (#5695153)
The England/Belgium game could be very interesting, in that there is a possibility the winner could face Colombia (if they rally for second place) and then Brazil/Germany (if Germany rallies for second and Brazil finishes first as expected). The loser could face a weaker group H team, then Mexico/Switzerland/Serbia, making it all the way to the semis without playing a team in the top 10 (pre-season odds). Those missed opportunities against Tunisia might help England in the long run. Will both teams be playing to lose? Note one more crazy fact about this... England/Belgium is the very last game of the third round, played after Gtoup H winds up. (All of this is still rather unlikely).
   552. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5695168)
And that's the 4th own goal, tied for most already. This WC is nuts. One of those was the free kick in the Iran game, so there is some overlap with set pieces.
   553. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5695170)
Boy oh boy, Brazil/Germany as a last 16 game would be wackadoodle.
   554. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 11:45 AM (#5695174)
I clearly don't understand the own goal rules. I thought a goal like that (and Pogba's) was credited to the shooter since it was on net.
   555. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 11:46 AM (#5695179)
The itv announcers said it had been reviewed and determined to be not on frame. I guess the same thing happened with Pogba.
   556. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 19, 2018 at 12:25 PM (#5695248)
Ok, THAT was a ripoff.

------------

Edit: Looked at it again, the ref clearly waved him in, and the Pole playing it back clearly didn't know.
   557. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 12:37 PM (#5695263)
I've never seen that before. It does seem very unfair. Did the 4th official wave him on or he field ref?
   558. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 19, 2018 at 12:41 PM (#5695267)
The field ref can clearly be seen waving him in, but he was behind the Pole about to play the ball. Just an unfortunate sequence.

It was a bad blunder by the ref, but I don't see any way it could have been rectified once his arm went up. And, it should be noted, kudos to Niang for hustling his ass.

-------------

Looked at it AGAIN again, and the Pole was kinda NotSmart to launch his backpass that high, anyway, but usually there's no downside. He "knew" there were no Senegal players back.
   559. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 12:47 PM (#5695276)
Pure dive. Should have been cautioned.
   560. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 12:49 PM (#5695278)
Yeah it's really hard to blame the players for not being aware of who might be coming in from the sideline during the run of play. This isn't hockey. I blame the officials for that.
   561. zack Posted: June 19, 2018 at 12:52 PM (#5695280)
He's waved on by the ref before the Senegal midfielder even heads it. And it took mistakes by three Poland players to make it a goal. Not that it doesn't suck for them.

This isn't hockey. I blame the officials for that.

Szczesny needs to be banging his stick on the ice there!
   562. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 12:53 PM (#5695282)
Still not the right time to wave on the player. It should never have happened.
   563. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 12:55 PM (#5695286)
After one round of games, the conferences that have done the best (relatively speaking) are actually CONCACAF and AFC. CAF was weakest (despite the game just now) and CONMEBOL wasn't much better. UEFA was a slight net positive.

(This was based on odds of advancement.)
   564. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 12:58 PM (#5695290)
Yeah it's really hard to blame the players for not being aware of who might be coming in from the sideline during the run of play. This isn't hockey. I blame the officials for that.


Perhaps but that kind of ball, a looping ball played between the last defender and the keeper, is a ball destined to be trouble. The ref probably should've waited but Poland dug their own grave on that one.
   565. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 01:03 PM (#5695295)
Knockout stage after matchday 1;

Russia-Portugal
France-Argentina
Serbia-Mexico
Belgium-Senegal
Iran-Uruguay
Croatia-Denmark
Sweden-Brazil
Japan-England

Potential quarterfinals;
France-Portugal
Belgium-Mexico
Croatia-Uruguay
England-Brazil

Potential Semifinals;
France-Belgium
Uruguay-Brazil

Potential Final;
France-Brazil
   566. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: June 19, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5695297)
Belgium! Belgium!!

Out of curiosity, how did you break ties? Alphabetically? :)
   567. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5695299)
However they are broken in Wikipedia...so probably. I think they use the correct tiebreakers where appropriate (e.g. Russia/Uruguay) but if the teams are tied on GD and Goals for and against it goes to alphabetical.
   568. zack Posted: June 19, 2018 at 01:09 PM (#5695301)
Knockout stage after matchday 1;

Here's an insane visualization of the knockout probabilities using elo as the implied team strength. Only Mexico and...well all of Group H have shifted much after one matchday (same for day 0.)
   569. J. Sosa Posted: June 19, 2018 at 01:19 PM (#5695314)
Yeah Jose, watching it live I thought he mishit a pass back to the defender but on the replay it looks like maybe he was hitting a backpass to the keeper which was woefully short. Either way it was a horrible pass, maybe he got caught in between.

A few years ago I thought Niang was going to turn into a great player, but he has kind of fizzled. It looks like there might have been some age related shenanigans going on, could be part of it. Could also just be that Milan has been a mess.

   570. McCoy Posted: June 19, 2018 at 02:40 PM (#5695429)
Why can't they do split screen to show replays while the live action is still going on?
   571. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 02:47 PM (#5695435)
It's Fox. You are expecting quality coverage?
   572. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: June 19, 2018 at 03:06 PM (#5695447)
o.g. number five. That's the record. That's probably it for Egypt as well, as now they need two.
   573. zack Posted: June 19, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5695452)
The video is all from an international feed, right? Those tend to be very conservative.
   574. McCoy Posted: June 19, 2018 at 03:12 PM (#5695456)
Fox can't record it and play it back to us?
   575. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 03:13 PM (#5695457)
And spend money on the broadcast? Hell they couldn't even be bothered to send their announcers to Russia.
   576. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 03:16 PM (#5695461)
Well if the O.G. wasn't the end for Egypt that sure as hell is.
   577. McCoy Posted: June 19, 2018 at 03:18 PM (#5695462)
Now this is what I expected when seeing some of the talent disparity in previous matches. It seems to me a lot of these games should have been blow outs.
   578. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: June 19, 2018 at 06:33 PM (#5695615)
It should never have needed to come to this, but let's hope this makes some difference*


Mexican midfielder Marco Fabian has urged El Tri fans in Russia to end their goalkeeper chant and suggested an alternative , after the anti-gay slur was heard during Mexico's 1-0 win over Germany last Sunday.

FIFA has opened an investigation for the latest incident of Mexico fans using the chant, despite FIFA on multiple occasions fining the Mexican federation (FMF), which has launched educational campaigns to try to stop its use.

And Fabian urged Mexico fans instead to sing well-known Mexican song Cielito Lindo ("Ay, ay, ay, ay, Canta y no llores").

"It's a good moment to send a message," said the Eintracht Frankfurt player in a news conference at the team's training base outside of Moscow. "We ask people not to do the chant. There are different rules now.

"It would be a shame for people to not be allowed in. It's nice to hear 'Cielito Lindo' and the shout of 'Mexico.' We should [try to] avoid punishments."

The Mexican federation has warned that fans caught shouting the chant could have their Fan IDs in Russia confiscated, which would prevent them from using their tickets.

A source within the FMF told ESPN Mexico's Rene Tovar the federation is expecting a fine of 500,000 pesos ($24,000) for the chant's use against Germany.


ESPNFC

* Ah, who am I kidding?

It's just going to make the chant louder, until and unless the Mexican FA is actually willing to start swinging The BanHammer.

And that's not going to happen until FIFA starts fining them more than 24k per match where it happens.
   579. Pirate Joe Posted: June 19, 2018 at 09:38 PM (#5695738)
And that's not going to happen until FIFA starts fining them more than 24k per match where it happens.



Or when they make them play a couple of home qualifiers with no fans in the stands and makes sure everyone knows that when the fans are allowed back if it continues the punishment gets worse every time. If that would happen the fans who want it to stop will start policing the people who just can't help themselves.

   580. Pirate Joe Posted: June 19, 2018 at 09:44 PM (#5695745)
I've never felt like timekeeping is a strength of soccer at any level. The added time seems to usually be a WAG, as often way off as close. I assume this is because different timekeepers count different things as dead time.



There isn't a lot to like about the American college (and high school) game, but simply do what they do. When the game stops because of an injury the ref signals the timekeeper and the clock stops until the injury is dealt with. Do the same thing on substitutions as well and it takes away the incentive for players to dawdle on their way off. You want to take two minutes to walk to the sideline? Fine, but the clock is stopped so you aren't helping your team any. Then when the clock gets to 45 or 90 the horn sounds and the game is over. No more watching a team score a goal in the 6th or 7th minute of 4 minutes of stoppage time simply because the ref has decided that he wants to give a team more chances.


   581. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 19, 2018 at 09:57 PM (#5695753)
Do more traditional soccer nations get hung up about the time keeping or is it a US thing?
   582. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: June 19, 2018 at 10:05 PM (#5695759)
I imagine some folks who root for PL teams have had some issues about "Fergie Time" at various points ...
   583. Richard Posted: June 19, 2018 at 10:13 PM (#5695763)
Do more traditional soccer nations get hung up about the time keeping or is it a US thing?

I think it's a US thing. In the UK people don't like timewasting but there seems to be zero support in the UK for stopping time when there's a stoppage. They'd much prefer the referees to clamp down on it by booking people earlier.

One of the great virtues of soccer, particularly in the modern era, is you know when it will finish. If it starts at 3, it will be over by 4.55.

   584. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 20, 2018 at 08:18 AM (#5695919)
Man, sit down at my desk and Morocco are already losing. Today's games really look like three ass kickings waiting to happen. I suppose Spain will only win 1-0 with 92% possession but I'll be shocked if we get an interesting game today.
   585. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: June 20, 2018 at 09:17 AM (#5695933)
Yeah today looks pretty weak, though with the low scoring cageyness of WC games you never know.

Tomorrow looks good, though. In particular France/Peru and Argentina/Croatia. Both should be pretty good matchups and Peru and Argentina have big incentives to win, so it could be open.
   586. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 20, 2018 at 09:22 AM (#5695936)
This game has been a lot more competitive than I expected. Morocco are getting some chances and don't look out of their depth at all. At some point I expect Portugal to get another one but Moroccoo are hanging around.
   587. bunyon Posted: June 20, 2018 at 09:40 AM (#5695962)
Morocco has solidly outplayed Portugal. Portugal is winning because they have Ronaldo and their keeper is having a hell of a day.

As for time, it's a US thing. I've gotten over it. It's how the game is played and it's great, no need to bend it to my ideas. (I will never be quiet about deciding games by PKs but timekeeping is no big deal.)
   588. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: June 20, 2018 at 09:59 AM (#5695979)
Yeah I don't think timekeeping is a big deal. The PK stuff is a challenge and I think there are real ways to improve that, but the best ideas aren't coming from Americans who watch soccer once every 4 years.

As for Portugal winning/playing unimpressively. I feel like that's been their MO a bit for some time, but they did win the Euros last go-round, so I'm probably not being fair to them. Also, as someone up thread has noted, soccer is a weak link game and that really holds them back. They just don't really seem to have that great of talent across the pitch.
   589. PreservedFish Posted: June 20, 2018 at 10:16 AM (#5695989)
Penalty kicks don't bother me, and I recognize the problem, that a game with no end could easily turn into 6-8 hours of both teams, conservative and totally exhausted, just not trying anything. I think that after the first two extra 15 minute sessions go scoreless, they should reduce the size of the teams. 9 on 9. Then 7 on 7. And so on. I think that would make goal-scoring chances come fast and furious.
   590. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 20, 2018 at 10:30 AM (#5695999)
Is this Rafa Marquez thing not the most bizarre story going? Like it feels like it should be a bigger story than it is. Long story short he's on the blacklist as a drug trafficker (or supporter of drug traffickers) so he can't wear attire with US sponsors on it, cna't be interviewed in front of US advertising logos and can't even drink from the same sponsored water bottles as his teammates.
   591. bunyon Posted: June 20, 2018 at 10:55 AM (#5696030)
Penalty kicks don't bother me, and I recognize the problem, that a game with no end could easily turn into 6-8 hours of both teams, conservative and totally exhausted, just not trying anything. I think that after the first two extra 15 minute sessions go scoreless, they should reduce the size of the teams. 9 on 9. Then 7 on 7. And so on. I think that would make goal-scoring chances come fast and furious.

I do watch more soccer than every four years and I think that's important. Draws work really, really well in league play and completely solve the problem. It's even made me kind of think with the coming implosion of bullpens that a win-draw-loss point system should be considered by MLB. But, to settle a championship, it seems crazy to me that the world would rather see PKs than, say, allowing free substitution. I'd do this (but, again, I get that my opinion counts little on the world stage): at the end of 90, each team MUST substitute four players. If still tied at the end of 30 more minutes, each team MUST substitute four more, and none of the first four subs can be removed, and the next goal wins.

I've told Europeans and South Americans this and they react with horror. But PKs don't bother them. So, meh. It's not our game and folks can do what they want with it. But, to me as an American, it's bizarre.
   592. bunyon Posted: June 20, 2018 at 11:02 AM (#5696041)
One last on PKs and I'll shut up: Teams don't try anything in extra time because they know they have, basically, a 50/50 chance coming up. If you take that away, teams will try, especially if they're fresh.

It's also entirely possible I, as a relatively uneducated soccer fan, don't appreciate that skill exists in PKs. It looks basically random to me. I freely admit that, in my mind, a team that "won" on PKs didn't really win but were randomly chosen to receive credit.
   593. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 20, 2018 at 11:11 AM (#5696049)
PKs are effectively a function of television aren't they? I think 1982 was the first World Cup with PKs as an option but before that it would go to a replay. The 1990 FA Cup final was won in a replay. I think just continuing on and on in soccer is just not feasible. I suppose if you are swapping out 3-5 players after each extra period perhaps but I think it would become pretty unwatchable. I remember the extra time in 1994 being pretty drab.
   594. PreservedFish Posted: June 20, 2018 at 11:13 AM (#5696051)
I freely admit that, in my mind, a team that "won" on PKs didn't really win but were randomly chosen to receive credit.

Agreed. Of course, after 90 minutes of even play, this might be as fair as anything else. I think PKs are gimmicky but damn they're exciting, and at least exciting is something. I remember watching that All-Star game tie, thinking that if I were Selig I would immediately declare a home run derby to settle the outcome. That would've been cool, right? That's what PKs are, basically, a fun gimmick that's enshrined in the game, which is fun, but they have an undue significance.

The real problem is that PKs should not have an 80% chance of success. It should be 50% or lower. They should just make them more difficult. Add a defender, that can choose to block part of the goal, or sprint at the taker. Or just put the ball further back. Something.
   595. PreservedFish Posted: June 20, 2018 at 11:16 AM (#5696053)
I don't like hockey, but the shootout has always struck me as very exciting. Shootouters score about 30% of the time. That feels better to me.
   596. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 20, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5696061)
Well that was horrifying.
   597. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 20, 2018 at 11:26 AM (#5696066)
The real problem is that PKs should not have an 80% chance of success. It should be 50% or lower. They should just make them more difficult. Add a defender, that can choose to block part of the goal, or sprint at the taker. Or just put the ball further back. Something.


What was the success rate on the old NASL shootout style?
   598. bunyon Posted: June 20, 2018 at 11:33 AM (#5696074)
Hockey shootouts definitely seem more like real play.

I'd be all for a replay. But, of course, TV (and tickets).

And, after all, it isn't THAT big of a problem. Nothing is perfect and soccer ticks off a lot of boxes for me. As does baseball. I complain way more about baseball. I don't really complain about the NFL at all.
   599. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 20, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5696098)
It's also entirely possible I, as a relatively uneducated soccer fan, don't appreciate that skill exists in PKs. It looks basically random to me. I freely admit that, in my mind, a team that "won" on PKs didn't really win but were randomly chosen to receive credit.

If it were truly random, England wouldn't always lose them.
   600. SPICEY WITH A SIDE OF BEER ON A BABYYYYYYY Posted: June 20, 2018 at 11:53 AM (#5696099)
Soccer and baseball are more "random" sports and don't lend themselves very well to single-elimination competitions. I agree that the PK stuff is mostly not too relevant in league play, it generally evens out. I like the idea of more discretion for the ref for PKs. It seems like at least the EPL is starting to do this by eliminating a lot of the red card plus PK scenarios that will totally end a game.

But I do think there's some value in either having 2 distances of PKs (for different caliber of fouls) and/or having some fouls in the corner of the box that are fouls but aren't a clear goal scoring opportunity be something other than a PK.
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