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Wednesday, August 01, 2012

OTP- August 2012: The Leader Post: New stadium won’t have same appeal, says Bill ‘Spaceman’ Lee

“Building a new stadium down the street does not work unless (Ron) Lancaster spilled some DNA in the lot where they’re going to build the new stadium,” he added. “You have to refurbish (Mosaic Stadium). You’ve got to can all new ideas you might have and use the sacred ground. Fenway did that and that is why Fenway is loved. The new Yankee Stadium isn’t the same as it used to be.”

The former Boston Red Sox and Montreal Expos pitcher will not be running for the vacant mayor’s position in Regina later this year. With his opinion on the new stadium, he wasn’t sure he would garner many votes anyway. But that is nothing new to the former member of the Rhinoceros Party. Lee ran on the Rhino ticket in 1988 for president of the United States. Not surprisingly, he didn’t make the ballot in a single state. He said one of the high-ranking members within the party gave him a six-pack of Molson Canadian and asked him to run for president.

“I adhered to their funny philosophy,” Lee said. “My campaign slogan was ‘No guns, no butter. They’ll both kill you.’ And I only campaigned in federal prisons where I knew they couldn’t vote, and I only accepted a quarter in campaign contributions.”

With it being an election year in the U.S., Lee said he is all in for the re-election of Barack Obama.

“The only time (Mitt) Romney opens his mouth is when he needs to change feet,” Lee said of the Republican nominee. “If Obama does lose this, which I can’t see happening, then it’s because of a lady in Florida who works for Jeb Bush and Diebold, the voting-machine company. If Obama even comes close to losing this election, it’ll be fraud.”

Guess what, its the new OT politics thread!

Tripon Posted: August 01, 2012 at 12:04 AM | 5975 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: boston, politics

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   2601. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:43 PM (#4210874)
Flip.
   2602. zonk Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:43 PM (#4210875)

Is this supposed to conjure a parallel to Obama? Obama was raised by his white mother and white middle-class grandparents in Hawaii, not some Chicago slum. From the looks of things — and his steadfast refusal to release his college grades — Obama was afforded all sorts of opportunities in his early life.


For the record -

Who was the last Presidential candidate TO release his grades?
   2603. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:43 PM (#4210876)
It's comical that people who hate George W. Bush for political reasons can't even admit, ON A BASEBALL SITE, that he was a good, hands-on baseball owner. The post-GWG Texas Rangers look a hell of a lot better than the laughingstock pre-GWB Rangers.
well, the steroids probably helped. his team employed clemens, palmeiro, rodriguez, gonzalez, rogers, brown, canseco, and probably quite a few others.


note: i'm not saying that all of the above players used steroids, but i am saying that it's more likely that they did than they didn't, and even if any of them did not use steroids individually, the team still benefitted greatly from their use.
   2604. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:46 PM (#4210877)

Two campuses in the Colorado public university system announced Friday that students who wish to carry a concealed weapon—a legal practice under the state's law—must live in separate dorms from their unarmed classmates, the Denver Post reports.

The announcement comes in the wake of a Colorado Supreme Court decision in March, which said that Colorado public universities could not prohibit guns on their campuses. The new policy will take effect at University of Colorado-Boulder and the University of Colorado-Colorado Springs. Under the new rules, students with permits to carry concealed weapons may still live in regular housing units, but they must store their guns with police, rather than in their living quarters.

The university also announced that students would be banned from carrying concealed weapons to sports games and public gatherings. "We are treating that ticket purchase as a contractual agreement that you won't bring your weapon to the venue," university spokesman Bronson Hilliard told the Post.

It's still too early to tell if the new restrictions will result in further litigation from Colorado's gun rights groups. James Manley, a libertarian lawyer who argued against the university's initial gun ban, said he had not yet determined whether the policy violated Coloradans' Second Amendment rights. "We still need to see the actual language of the policy before we make a decision on how to proceed," Manley told the paper.
   2605. zonk Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:46 PM (#4210878)
Has Mitt Romney released HIS college transcripts? Was Mitt Romney "afforded all sorts of opportunities in his early life", too?
   2606. Gonfalon B. Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:47 PM (#4210879)
#2589: Since when is it ordinary for a candidate to hold a 51% plurality before primary season and maintain it for the entire election year? Obama didn't do it. GWB didn't do it, either time. Clinton didn't, either time. Bush Sr. didn't. Reagan didn't do it, including in 1984. Carter, nope. Nixon didn't do it, including in 1972. Using your standard, it's a marvel anyone ever gets elected.

Is this supposed to be a rebuttal? Almost that entire list shows that incumbents who are under 50 percent face tough reelection battles. GWB barely scraped by in 2004; his father lost in '92; and Carter was crushed in '80. (Your claim about Reagan in '84 is dubious. He was never less than +10 in approval, with a high of +25, and he was a clear favorite throughout the campaign.)


In January 1984, Reagan was tied with both Walter Mondale and John Glenn at 45%-45%. In March, Gallup had Reagan losing to Gary Hart, 52% to 43%. In July, Gallup had Reagan losing to Mondale 48% to 46% (that was Mondale's convention bump). Sorry to ruin your dubiousness.

Nobody disputes that an incumbent (or for that matter, a challenger) under 50% has a fight on his hands. That's the concept of an election.

Your extrapolation from that -- Obama will lose because he hasn't done a particular thing that no candidate has done since at least 1968, including the biggest winners -- was incorrect. Your original extrapolation -- not only is Obama under 50% in the national polls, but he's also under 50% in the battleground states -- was the opposite of an insight.
   2607. ASmitty Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:49 PM (#4210882)
From the looks of things — and his steadfast refusal to release his college grades — Obama was afforded all sorts of opportunities in his early life.


He must have really turned on the jets when he got to law school then. Law Review isn't a popularity contest.

Being a minority presents many obstacles and many opportunites. Obama successfuly surmonted the obstacles and took advantage of the opportunities. I dislike his presidency, but I must confess that if I had been given his start I probably wouldn't have ended up as POTUS.
   2608. The Good Face Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4210884)
Am I to be impressed by Paris Hilton?


Paris Hilton has earned millions of dollars by trading on her popularity and charisma. If it's impressive when Obama does it, it should be even more impressive when somebody does it without the benefit of using their platform as a public servant.
   2609. Steve Treder Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:51 PM (#4210885)
Liberalism pretends there are no differences between people; men, women, black, white, gay, straight. Etc.

Ray, when you say things like this you are acting like a complete idiot. We all know you aren't. Please stop.
   2610. ASmitty Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:51 PM (#4210886)
If it's impressive when Obama does it, it should be even more impressive when somebody does it without the benefit of using their platform as a public servant.


I never read Obama's books, but I probably would have if he had released a sex tape first.
   2611. Gonfalon B. Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4210888)
"One Night in Kenya."
   2612. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4210889)
Well, Bush was flying fighter jets in his early 20s. Based on pilot salaries, that seems like a skill that would have translated out in the real world.

Yeah, especially since sobriety isn't required to fly commercial planes.

Snark aside, Bush is like anyone who made president since the days of Warren Harding: He's almost certainly a whole lot smarter than his opponents give him credit for.
   2613. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4210890)
For the record -

Who was the last Presidential candidate TO release his grades?

Who cares? The topic under discussion is the assumption that Obama is a genius based only on a media narrative that he's a genius, with no college transcripts and no private-sector successes to bolster such a claim.

Has Mitt Romney released HIS college transcripts? Was Mitt Romney "afforded all sorts of opportunities in his early life", too?

I don't know re: the former, but absolutely re: the latter. No one ever claimed otherwise.
   2614. zonk Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:58 PM (#4210896)
Paris Hilton has earned millions of dollars by trading on her popularity and charisma. If it's impressive when Obama does it, it should be even more impressive when somebody does it without the benefit of using their platform as a public servant.


I think there's a difference between being a public servant - regardless what comes out of that on the personal wallet side, I do believe public service is an important and honorable career - and becoming popular because you're an heiress that can afford to get famous for drinking a lot, partaking of drugs, and making sex tapes... I mean, not that I'm against any of those things, but in the grand scale of the universe -- yes, I put a lot more stock and honor in serving in elected office than I do the former.
   2615. Dan The Mediocre Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:58 PM (#4210897)
Who cares? The topic under discussion is the assumption that Obama is a genius based only on a media narrative that he's a genius, with no college transcripts and no private-sector successes to bolster such a claim.


The University of Chicago offering him tenure as a professor basically torpedos this claim.

EDIT: Sorry, a tenure-track position, not a position with tenure immediately after acceptance.
   2616. Tripon Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4210899)
Hey Joe, want to release your transcript records? I'd release mine if you release yours.
   2617. zonk Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:01 PM (#4210900)
Who cares? The topic under discussion is the assumption that Obama is a genius based only on a media narrative that he's a genius, with no college transcripts and no private-sector successes to bolster such a claim.


And the media narrative of George W Bush was that he was a regular guy people were comfortable having a beer with...

And the media narrative of Bill Clinton was that he felt your pain...

And the media narrative of Ronald Reagan was that he was the great communicator...

And the media narrative of...

Yet - Reagan had no debate team trophies that I'm aware of, Bill Clinton didn't have any humanitarian awards, I suppose W actually DID have stacks of cleared brush, so maybe he does win after all.
   2618. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:02 PM (#4210902)
Who cares? The topic under discussion is the assumption that Obama is a genius based only on a media narrative that he's a genius, with no college transcripts and no private-sector successes to bolster such a claim.


So, part of the problem here is that Joe clearly has a special set of "topics under discussion" that he keeps in his head and doesn't tell anyone else about.
   2619. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:04 PM (#4210903)
The University of Chicago offering him tenure as a professor basically torpedos this claim.


While your point stands, just to be clear they offered him the opportunity to (in their words) "join the faculty in a full-time tenure-track position."

I'm not good with education, but this means a tenure track, not tenure, yes? Or is it the case - I'm asking - that everyone on a "tenure track" eventually is granted tenure?
   2620. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:04 PM (#4210904)
The University of Chicago offering him tenure as a professor basically torpedos this claim.


Joe has been told by reliable sources on the talk radio right that Barack Obama is nothing but an empty suit and that he flunked out of school but was propped up by Affirmative Action.

Let's just cut to the chase and deal with what is in front of us, right?
   2621. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:06 PM (#4210907)
I'm not good with education, but this means a tenure track, not tenure, yes? Or is it the case - I'm asking - that everyone on a "tenure track" eventually is granted tenure?


Tenure track means that he's on a career path to become tenured. This is distinct from an associate professor who simply gets rehired on a contract by contract basis and has no real shot at becoming a tenured entity at the university.
   2622. Dan The Mediocre Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:07 PM (#4210911)
While your point stands, just to be clear they offered him the opportunity to (in their words) "join the faculty in a full-time tenure-track position."

I'm not good with education, but this means a tenure track, not tenure, yes? Or is it the case - I'm asking - that everyone on a "tenure track" eventually is granted tenure?


I edited the post already. But I believe that while he is on a path to be tenured he still has to earn it while someone on a non-tenure-track path basically has to do something extraordinary to jump career paths.
   2623. ASmitty Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:09 PM (#4210912)
I'm not good with education, but this means a tenure track, not tenure, yes? Or is it the case - I'm asking - that everyone on a "tenure track" eventually is granted tenure?


It's the difference between partnership track and contract attorney, basically. Not everyone who is on tenure track gets tenure, but the overwhelming majority do. In fact, probably too many.

EDIT: Cokes all around.
   2624. Steve Treder Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:10 PM (#4210913)
is it the case - I'm asking - that everyone on a "tenure track" eventually is granted tenure?

Maybe things are different now, but that sure wasn't the case when I was in grad school and aiming for an academic career.
   2625. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:11 PM (#4210915)
Hey Joe, want to release your transcript records? I'd release mine if you release yours.

I had a crummy 2.331 GPA at Duke, but back in the pre-grade inflation days that was still in the upper half of the class. There were some seriously slacker students in Bubasville back then, me definitely included.
   2626. zonk Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4210916)
BTW -

Extensive googling regarding my #2602 -- no Presidential candidate that I can find has ever released his college transcripts... W's were leaked to the New Yorker (a dirty bit of pool, to be sure -- and also illegal) - but no President I can find has released them.

I was genuinely curious... and actually, a bit surprised -- Bill Clinton was a Phi Beta Kappa and Rhodes Scholar, so you'd have thought he'd have released his, at least. However, I suspect doing so wins no one any votes because people tend not to like the smart kid in class anyway... much better to have the 'media' call you a genius than to flash the paper yourself proclaiming it so, I guess.
   2627. zonk Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:16 PM (#4210918)
I had a crummy 2.331 GPA at Duke, but back in the pre-grade inflation days that was still in the upper half of the class. There were some seriously slacker students in Bubasville back then, me definitely included.


Heh... if your 2.331 was crummy, then I hope we never have to run against each other for office ;-)

For the record, if I ever ran for office, I'd NEVER release my transcripts... I had a bit of a lost year that still gives me nightmares explaining to the dean, and the last thing I'd ever want to do is re-discuss that publicly. Of course - as soon as I hit 'submit', I guess it's inevitable that some future reporter is able to track me to all known internet aliases so I'm screwed anyway.

What's the age rule for using the "when I was young and foolish, I was young and foolish" gambit?
   2628. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:17 PM (#4210919)
Bill Clinton was a Phi Beta Kappa and Rhodes Scholar, so you'd have thought he'd have released his, at least. However, I suspect doing so wins no one any votes because people tend not to like the smart kid in class anyway... much better to have the 'media' call you a genius than to flash the paper yourself proclaiming it so, I guess.

And better than all of the above is being Al Gore and having the media call you a genius even though you were a C-minus student.

On your best day.
   2629. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:17 PM (#4210920)
Who was the last Presidential candidate TO release his grades?

I don't think the candidates released them, but the Washington Post had the college grades for Bush & Gore in 2000. Somewhat surprisingly, Bush had the better grades if you consider graduate school, where Gore did rather poorly in both divinity and law school.
   2630. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4210922)
The University of Chicago offering him tenure as a professor basically torpedos this claim.

EDIT: Sorry, a tenure-track position, not a position with tenure immediately after acceptance.

Torpedoes what claim? How does being offered a job at the University of Chicago prove Obama is a genius?

Hey Joe, want to release your transcript records? I'd release mine if you release yours.

Uh, sure. I have them right in my back pocket.
   2631. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:20 PM (#4210923)
I was genuinely curious... and actually, a bit surprised -- Bill Clinton was a Phi Beta Kappa and Rhodes Scholar, so you'd have thought he'd have released his, at least. However, I suspect doing so wins no one any votes because people tend not to like the smart kid in class anyway... much better to have the 'media' call you a genius than to flash the paper yourself proclaiming it so, I guess.
\

You answer your own question. There isn't a voting bloc in America that is going to come over to the Dems (that wasn't already there) because the candidate was a super-stud nerd. Releasing his transcripts would have undermined his campaign's "man of the people" rhetoric - "the man from Hope," et al - while opening up opportunities for his opponents at any stage to unleash the real hammer of American politics; anti-intellectualism.
   2632. Dan The Mediocre Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4210924)
Torpedos what claim? How does being offered a job at the University of Chicago prove Obama is a genius?


What sort of person do you think is offered a tenure-track position at a top 5 law school?
   2633. ASmitty Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4210926)
How does being offered a job at the University of Chicago prove Obama is a genius?


Serious question: Who says this?

I recall some gushing over Obama's academic resume in '08, but that seems like ancient history today. I don't see many "Obama the Genius" stories these days. He's a smart guy; I have respect for anyone who makes Law Review at a top school because I missed the cut. He lectured at a top school. He sounds smart. This genius thing though...not really hearing it.
   2634. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4210927)
And better than all of the above is being Al Gore and having the media call you a genius even though you were a C-minus student.


In what special needs world was there a raging media narrative calling Al Gore a genius? Do you guys just make #### up to keep from having to deal with anything resembling reality?
   2635. zonk Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4210928)
I don't think the candidates released them, but the Washington Post had the college grades for Bush & Gore in 2000. Somewhat surprisingly, Bush had the better grades if you consider graduate school, where Gore did rather poorly in both divinity and law school.


Yeah - my understanding is that both were leaked rather than 'released'... so far as I can tell, no candidate as ever willingly released them. Like I said - I'm kind of surprised.
   2636. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:22 PM (#4210929)
He must have really turned on the jets when he got to law school then. Law Review isn't a popularity contest.

No, but "Editor" kind of is.

And I know it's a high-status Law School Thing, but... why? Law reviews, even Harvard's, are mainly published to be written, when it should be the other way around. It's great prep for working at a big firm, or clerking for a judge. But it's nothing like, say, learning to research and write a persuasive motion. If I had to pick between two lawyers for my case, and all I knew about them was Lawyer A was on law review and not clinic, and Lawyer B was in clinic but not law review, I'd pick Lawyer B without hesitation, every time.
   2637. The Good Face Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:23 PM (#4210930)
yes, I put a lot more stock and honor in serving in elected office than I do the former.


We're not talking about drinking and partying though, we're talking about monetizing one's charisma and popularity. Paris Hilton did a great job of doing so, and she didn't need political power to pull it off.

Not everyone who is on tenure track gets tenure, but the overwhelming majority do. In fact, probably too many.


This depends on the institution and the discipline, but as a general rule, getting tenure requires scholarship and publications. The amount and the type vary, some schools require publishing a book plus X published articles, some don't require a book but have other demands, etc. I'd say overwhelming majority is an overstatement, at least in academia today.

Remind me again how many works of published legal scholarship Obama has?
   2638. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4210933)
What sort of person do you think is offered a tenure-track position at a top 5 law school?

Well, if law schools offer jobs the same way 'ASmitty' describes the partnership prospects for a "handsome, well-spoken minority man" ...
   2639. Tripon Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:24 PM (#4210935)

I don't think the candidates released them, but the Washington Post had the college grades for Bush & Gore in 2000. Somewhat surprisingly, Bush had the better grades if you consider graduate school, where Gore did rather poorly in both divinity and law school.


Not really, by the time you're in graduate school, from my personal experience and people I talked to, Professors just stop caring about differentiation and start assigning people A's. I think the assumption is if you're good enough to be in the program, you're good enough where I don't have to actually check your work.

But the people who go to grad school are usually the same people who gave a damn in school in the first place, so it all works out.
   2640. ASmitty Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:26 PM (#4210937)
I'd pick Lawyer B without hesitation, every time.


No disagreements here. But then again 90% of law school is a waste of time; any firm could teach you much, much more and save you $200k with an unpaid, three year internship.

But you can't get LR without grades. Joe seemed to be suggesting that Obama's failure to release his transcripts from undergrad meant he might have poor grades. Making LR at Harvard undermines that idea.
   2641. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:26 PM (#4210938)
For the record, if I ever ran for office, I'd NEVER release my transcripts...

One of my best friends in high school was naturally as skinny as a beanpole, and he gorged on everything he could in order to get up his weight in order to be drafted. Talk about how times have changed: He had hopes of running for congress one day, and he didn't want to be accused of being a draft dodger. I sometimes wonder what he makes of the careers of Clinton and G.W. Bush.

He wasn't the brightest penny in the roll, but I don't think he would've cared about releasing his grade transcripts at the Universities of Oklahoma and Hawaii. OTOH he was deathly afraid that his high school nickname of "Flyface" could sink his future career in politics if it ever came out, and that paranoia caused him to become a bureaucrat instead. He now looks like the spitting image of a 68 year old Richard Nixon, but at least nobody is around to remind him of his old nickname, and so he's made his peace with his absence from the White House.
   2642. zonk Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:27 PM (#4210941)
You answer your own question. There isn't a voting bloc in America that is going to come over to the Dems (that wasn't already there) because the candidate was a super-stud nerd. Releasing his transcripts would have undermined his campaign's "man of the people" rhetoric - "the man from Hope," et al - while opening up opportunities for his opponents at any stage to unleash the real hammer of American politics; anti-intellectualism.


Yeah -

I guess I should also extend the caveat that I've known people who got really good grades and people who got relatively poor grades, and of the people I would consider 'geniuses' (or at least, really, really smart) -- more of them slotted into the latter class than the former... at least, that's what I tell myself!
   2643. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:29 PM (#4210945)
We're not talking about drinking and partying though, we're talking about monetizing one's charisma and popularity. Paris Hilton did a great job of doing so, and she didn't need political power to pull it off


Neither did Obama. Obama didn't "need political power" to be successful. He has political power *because he was successful.* Then he monetized his success story. Good ####### lord. This isn't very hard.
   2644. ASmitty Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:31 PM (#4210946)
Well, if law schools offer jobs the same way 'ASmitty' describes the partnership prospects for a "handsome, well-spoken minority man" ...


Different as far as tenure track at a top school. If you're on that track, you're not just teaching, you have to be publishing scholarly works as well. A top tier school can't have a prof embarrassing the institution by being a crappy scholar; the "academic reputation" of faculty is a metric on the law school rankings. Would Obama have been a crappy scholar? He didn't accept the offer, so it's impossible to tell.

EDIT: When I left private practice I considered teaching, but since I would never, ever want to write scholarly legal works, tenure track was never an option for me. It's a big part of the job, and you have to go the adjunct route to avoid it.
   2645. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:32 PM (#4210947)
In what special needs world was there a raging media narrative calling Al Gore a genius? Do you guys just make #### up to keep from having to deal with anything resembling reality?

Well let's see, there's this 2007 Vanity Fair recap of the 2000 race which quotes Howie Kurtz, the most prominent insider-y media watcher and critic in the country saying:

"To this day, Washington Post media columnist Howard Kurtz, who spent time traveling with both candidates, wonders why Gore remained "secluded in the front cabin [of the plane]" and didn't engage in chitchat. "Everything is fair game in a presidential campaign," says Kurtz, "and part of the test of any candidate is how he deals with an often skeptical press corps.… The press sets up a series of obstacle courses … and if you are Al Gore and considered to be super-smart, yet not particularly gregarious, it's the moments of awkwardness or misstatements that are going to get media attention."

Translation: The Washington press corps thought Al Gore was "super-smart" and said so repeatedly.

I'm sure you can easily find other examples if you're interested.
   2646. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4210950)
Neither did Obama. Obama didn't "need political power" to be successful. He has political power *because he was successful.* Then he monetized his success story. Good ####### lord. This isn't very hard.

Successful at what? Community organizing and getting political opponents tossed off the ballot?

What was Obama's greatest private-sector achievement? What was Obama's greatest legislative achievement in the Illinois legislature? What was Obama's biggest win as an attorney?
   2647. The Good Face Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:37 PM (#4210952)
Neither did Obama. Obama didn't "need political power" to be successful. He has political power *because he was successful.* Then he monetized his success story. Good ####### lord. This isn't very hard.


Don't be stupid on purpose son. Nobody said anything about success getting elected. He needed political power to monetize his charisma; Obama was pretty broke until he started getting elected to public office. Don't hate because Paris Hilton's better at something than your boy.

Assuming of course that he made all that money from his books in the first place.
   2648. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:40 PM (#4210953)
This thread segment is a new low in BTF political discussions, and that's saying something.
   2649. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:42 PM (#4210954)
Generally [EDIT: and the word "generally" is a vast understatement], the students on law review are not dummies - and I'd be surprised if this was common. Usually, students have to grade on, and sometimes have to grade on and write on. You can write on to the lesser journals but (I think; perhaps I'm misremembering) but you still need minimum grades to write on to even the lesser journals.

Of course, different schools are different and I don't know how it works at Harvard Law, but I'd be surprised - shocked, even - if Obama was sitting on law review undeservedly, or in large part because he is black, or anything like that.

You will simply have trouble arguing that Obama isn't a bright guy while also having to deal with the fact that he was on law review at Harvard. (EDIT: As well as being an adjunct or whatever they wanted to call him - lecturer or senior lecture - at a law school. These people are not idiots.)
   2650. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:45 PM (#4210957)
This thread segment is a new low in BTF political discussions, and that's saying something.


That's almost like a challenge.
   2651. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4210960)
It's not a challenge. We always manage to lower the bar somehow.
   2652. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:50 PM (#4210961)
Translation: The Washington press corps thought Al Gore was "super-smart" and said so repeatedly.

There have always been two distinct and parallel thoughts about Gore in the Washington press corps. The first is, as you say, that he has an exceptionally high IQ level and a high degree of policy wonkishness. Whether the former thought is true or not, I can't say.

But the second bit of CW about Gore is that he's the clumsiest and most clueless major political figure this side of Thomas E. Dewey, at least until Mitt Romney came along. That's every bit as much of the Washington narrative about Gore as his alleged policy smarts, and if you're going to mention one you shouldn't forget the other.

--------------------------------------

This thread segment is a new low in BTF political discussions, and that's saying something.

Given the recent presence of two of BTF's two biggest right wing trolls, that's not too surprising.

P.S. I am not referring to Ray.
   2653. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:55 PM (#4210966)
What was Obama's greatest private-sector achievement?
just to have a bit of fun, what was paul ryan's greatest private sector achievement?
   2654. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:57 PM (#4210968)
Of course, different schools are different and I don't know how it works at Harvard Law, but I'd be surprised - shocked, even - if Obama was sitting on law review undeservedly, or in large part because he is black, or anything like that.

You will simply have trouble arguing that Obama isn't a bright guy while also having to deal with the fact that he was on law review at Harvard.

I don't doubt that Obama is a bright guy, but we're also talking about a guy who started law school at age 27. Like a 25-year-old in the New York–Penn League, a 27-year-old should do well in law school relative to his 22-year-old classmates, both academically and politically.

***
just to have a bit of fun, what was paul ryan's greatest private sector achievement?

Weren't we talking about Obama getting rich off public service? I guess I missed the part where Paul Ryan made millions on book sales after he was elected to Congress at age 28. I guess he's not as good of a writer as Barack Obama. That must explain it.
   2655. robinred Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:59 PM (#4210969)
He needed political power to monetize his charisma;


This is a silly thing to argue about, but Paris Hilton needed her name, financial advantages and family connections to "monetize her charisma." Take those away and have her born to a middle-class family in Chatsworth, and she is just another blonde, and neither as hot nor as talented as many who make no dent in nor money from the celeb world. One of her big successes was The Simple Life, which I was aware of since I know a woman who at the time worked for Lionel Ritchie, and that came her way/was a go just because of her name.

Looking at her Wiki page, she has been involved in a lot of stuff in the lucrative but less prestigious parts of the entertainment biz (voiceovers, reality shows, straight-to-DVD movies, and she is now trying to sing) and has made a lot of money selling perfume and shoes with her name on them, some of which she supposedly designed. No way to know how much credit she deserves for that stuff, but the page does say that she was kicked out of her private high school for rules infractions and wound up getting her GED and has not been to college. Given the heavy emphasis most of the BTF demographic places on academic success, I thought that was worth noting. She also, of course, has done a short home confinement stint and has been in probation for a DUI/driving with a suspended license. In addition, on the good side, she has done some philanthropic work.

As to Obama, he is a smart, charismatic guy who, had he not become involved in politics,almost certainly would have been successful in law and/or academia. He was not doing the kind of stuff that makes you Romneyrich, but that is not the only way to measure success.
   2656. ASmitty Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:00 PM (#4210971)
When I went to Northwestern I believe the average age was about 27. About fifteen of us had come straight from undergrad.
   2657. Greg K Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:02 PM (#4210974)
I had a crummy 2.331 GPA at Duke, but back in the pre-grade inflation days that was still in the upper half of the class. There were some seriously slacker students in Bubasville back then, me definitely included.

This seems like a fun game! Let's all reveal our university records.

I actually would if I remembered them. I believe I was in the mid-to-low 80s. I don't know how that equates with this whole GPA thing (which frankly sounds made up to me).
   2658. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:07 PM (#4210977)
just to have a bit of fun, what was paul ryan's greatest private sector achievement?

Weren't we talking about Obama getting rich off public service?
Joe has decided we're not allowed to discuss Paul Ryan.
   2659. PreservedFish Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:07 PM (#4210978)
What the #### is Kehoskie arguing about?
   2660. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4210979)
I don't know why I'm responding one last time, but here I am. We all agree on the basic track of Obama's career as a writer, right?

(Wrote book, had small success)

Then

(Became politician, had reasonable success)

Then

(Won a big primary)

Then

(Got his big break in a convention speech, speech kills)

Then

(Becomes major celebrity)

Then

(Book is re-released, well re-reviewed, becomes best-seller)

So we're arguing over how to precisely characterize this, and over whether it's a "distasteful" way to have made money or a more "distasteful" career path than other ways of becoming wealthy? Yeah, this is stupid.
   2661. JuanGone..except1game Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:09 PM (#4210980)
When I went to Northwestern I believe the average age was about 27. About fifteen of us had come straight from undergrad.


I went straight to law school at Emory and there was about 1/3 of the class who did it straight like myself. Joe is speaking about something that he knows nothing about (probably not the first time).
   2662. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:09 PM (#4210981)
What sort of person do you think is offered a tenure-track position at a top 5 law school?

Well, if law schools offer jobs the same way 'ASmitty' describes the partnership prospects for a "handsome, well-spoken minority man" ...


Joe, I can't recall having a dumb professor, or adjunct, or instructor, or "lecturer" (I put that in quotes not to demean the term but simply because we didn't call them that) in law school. I seriously doubt the University of Chicago Law School would want to deal with someone as a lecturer who they didn't think was qualified for the job or good at the job - let alone keep him there for several years. These positions reflect seriously on the law school, I don't believe there is any shortage of people wanting to fill them, and students who think the adjunct sucks _will_ complain.

I've kind of lost what your argument is. Is it that Obama is not intelligent? Because I've seen no evidence for that claim. Is it that he's not a good lawyer? (*) Because I've seen no evidence for that claim either. But I've seen plenty of evidence to counter both claims.

There's a reason firms and companies who hire don't focus a great deal on transcripts, so his transcripts in college, even if bad -- and you've presented no evidence for that -- while they would be interesting and a factor in the inquiry, would not be solely determinative of intelligence. His post on law review certainly suggests -- more than that, even -- that his law school grades were good.

I've called him a "nondescript" politician, but that doesn't mean I think he wasn't bright; it means he wasn't doing anything that scores of other politicians were doing, but somehow his boat got floated to the top anyway.

I think he's an intelligent guy. I've heard him speak and debate, and while he has a talent for speaking articulately in debates without actually saying much, that doesn't mean he's not intelligent -- quite the opposite, actually.

(*) I note with regard to whether he's a good lawyer, I don't know enough about his work to say. It wouldn't shock me if he is a good academic but not a good "lawyer" per se -- by which I mean he understands the case law and concepts and is excellent at teaching and doing legal research but isn't very good at the day to day skills of being a lawyer, which are a much broader set of skills (e.g., speaking to clients, managing dozens of tasks and cases at the same time, able to work on deadline, dealing with multiple deadlines each day or week, doing the work efficiently and well so that the client doesn't complain about the bill or your firm doesn't have to eat your time, etc.). I've met some academics -- law professors -- who I don't think would be good lawyers but who are clearly smart people. I'm not saying Obama wouldn't be able to be a good "lawyer" in a practical sense, just that, again, it doesn't surprise me when I run into academics who fit this mold.
   2663. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:11 PM (#4210983)
Joe has decided we're not allowed to discuss Paul Ryan.

You can talk about Paul Ryan all you want; doing so actually bolsters the original point about Obama getting rich off public service.

Ryan's political career from ages 28 to 42 has been far better than Obama's career was at those same ages, yet somehow, Ryan hasn't made millions off book sales. If only Paul Ryan was a better writer ...
   2664. Steve Treder Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:12 PM (#4210984)
Yeah, this is stupid.

Mind-bogglingly.
   2665. ASmitty Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:13 PM (#4210988)
Paul Ryan is 42? Those Republicans age well.
   2666. Greg K Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:14 PM (#4210990)
But the people who go to grad school are usually the same people who gave a damn in school in the first place, so it all works out.

I'm bucking trends all over the place!

My observation of grad school is that grades don't matter at all. It's either pass or fail, and you're judged on your proposals, publications, interviews etc. I have no idea what grade I got for my masters, I don't know for sure but I'm 90% sure those grades had nothing to do with me getting into my PhD program, and I don't really expect to hear what I get on my thesis beyond a yes or no.

If there's anything I've learned from my 10 years in university (and there probably isn't) it's what Mark-Paul Gosselaar says in Dead Man on Campus.

"Josh, is this about bad grades? Bad grades are meaningless. You know, they're like parking tickets. I mean, they mean nothing. Just laugh, because they're silly. You know, they're silly little nothings."
   2667. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:14 PM (#4210991)
Ryan's political career from ages 28 to 42 has been far better than Obama's career was at those same ages, yet somehow, Ryan hasn't made millions off book sales. If only Paul Ryan were a better writer ...
... so, then it must not have been Obama's career in public service that made his books successful. Thank you for finally agreeing with the rest of us.
   2668. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:17 PM (#4210994)
I don't doubt that Obama is a bright guy, but we're also talking about a guy who started law school at age 27. Like a 25-year-old in the New York–Penn League, a 27-year-old should do well in law school relative to his 22-year-old classmates, both academically and politically.


Joe: I don't know what you think the average age of a law student is, but it is simply not the case that nearly everyone goes to law school straight from college - quite the opposite, actually. If I had to guess, 1/3 or 1/2 of the students come straight from college. Maybe it's half. But a large swathe of the students are in their mid-to-late 20s, and probably 1/3 or 1/4 in their 30s, and then a small smattering 40 or above. It wouldn't shock me if the median age was 27, actually. But it's definitely higher than 21; it has to be.

EDIT: cokes.
   2669. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:18 PM (#4210996)
I don't think the candidates released them, but the Washington Post had the college grades for Bush & Gore in 2000. Somewhat surprisingly, Bush had the better grades if you consider graduate school, where Gore did rather poorly in both divinity and law school.

Not really, by the time you're in graduate school, from my personal experience and people I talked to, Professors just stop caring about differentiation and start assigning people A's. I think the assumption is if you're good enough to be in the program, you're good enough where I don't have to actually check your work.

But the people who go to grad school are usually the same people who gave a damn in school in the first place, so it all works out.


Don't think that's true for law school, at least during my time, but if that's the case for grad school, it doesn't seem to say much for Gore, who reportedly received F's in 5 of the 8 classes he took at Vanderbilt University Divinity School before moving over to the law school for a brief stint as a C student before dropping out. Bush did earn a Harvard MBA.


   2670. ASmitty Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:19 PM (#4210998)
Does anybody even graduate from undergrad at 21 anymore? I didn't.
   2671. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:19 PM (#4210999)
Ryan's political career from ages 28 to 42 has been far better than Obama's career was at those same ages
Is it because of all the bills he wrote?
   2672. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:20 PM (#4211000)
I've kind of lost what your argument is.


He's not making any cogent arguments, Ray. He's just spinning, however he thinks best benefits his preferred team. He's not actually thinking, much less taking his thinking and putting it into critical arguments of merit.

You and I were talking about why people would be put off by Mitt Romney's wealth. Joe didn't like that Mitt Romney's downside was being discussed, so he brought up some crazy ass red herring about Barack Obama being equally rich (untrue) and that being the case only because of some sort of evil, nefarious "public service" aspect of his life (equally untrue, although more truthfully simply so incoherent as to deny one the ability to make any sort of truth judgement about it at all.)

The last three pages are Joe spinning and spinning and spinning, while swearing up and down that he's the only one standing still.
   2673. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:21 PM (#4211002)
I've kind of lost what your argument is. Is it that Obama is not intelligent? Because I've seen no evidence for that claim. Is it that he's not a good lawyer? (*) Because I've seen no evidence for that claim either. But I've seen plenty of evidence to counter both claims.

I've never said anything about Obama not being intelligent. I simply find MCoA's claim that Obama's celebrity and wealth are only "mildly" due to his political career to be absurd, as is the claim that Obama was likely to become rich and famous even if he had avoided politics. Until age 43 in 2004, Obama had shown no ability whatsoever to make money in a way that was divorced from politics. (And his political career started at age 36, not 22 like Paul Ryan.)
   2674. Srul Itza Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:25 PM (#4211005)
Obama has to have been pretty damn smart from the get go, if he got through Punahou. That is not and never has been the kind of private school where they coddle the students and don't expect much from them, as long as their parents pay the tuition. There is competition to get it, and they work the students fairly rigorously, and require a degree of public service, as well.

Stupid or lazy or uncommitted kids don't last long there.
   2675. Srul Itza Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:26 PM (#4211006)
The last three pages are Joe spinning and spinning and spinning, while swearing up and down that he's the only one standing still.


The next honest thing he says will be the first honest thing he has ever said.
   2676. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:27 PM (#4211007)
What the #### is Kehoskie arguing about?


Don't stop him, he's on a roll.
   2677. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:30 PM (#4211013)
Weren't we talking about Obama getting rich off public service? I guess I missed the part where Paul Ryan made millions on book sales after he was elected to Congress at age 28. I guess he's not as good of a writer as Barack Obama. That must explain it.
i'm pretty sure that paul ryan is rich. i'm also fairly sure that he's made the bulk of his money working in the public sector.

further, i'm also fairly confident in saying that he's made money by trading off of insider knowledge that he's privy to as a congressman. that's actually legal, but i'd argue it's a much more distasteful way to earn money than by writing a book that happens to sell well because the author is well-known and personally likable.



oh, and if you'd like me to back up that claim with evidence, well, has paul ryan released his tax returns yet? :)
   2678. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:33 PM (#4211015)
... so, then it must not have been Obama's career in public service that made his books successful. Thank you for finally agreeing with the rest of us.

Or maybe crazy Joe Biden was right when he said:

"I mean, you got the first mainstream African-American who is articulate and bright and clean and a nice-looking guy. I mean, that's a storybook, man."


***
Joe: I don't know what you think the average age of a law student is, but it is simply not the case that nearly everyone goes to law school straight from college - quite the opposite, actually. If I had to guess, 1/3 or 1/2 of the students come straight from college. Maybe it's half. But a large swathe of the students are in their mid-to-late 20s, and probably 1/3 or 1/4 in their 30s, and then a small smattering 40 or above. It wouldn't shock me if the median age was 27, actually. But it's definitely higher than 21; it has to be.

Per some quick Googling, the median age of a 1L at a top-14 law school is 24.

***
You and I were talking about why people would be put off by Mitt Romney's wealth. Joe didn't like that Mitt Romney's downside was being discussed, so he brought up some crazy ass red herring about Barack Obama being equally rich

Liar.
   2679. Tripon Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:33 PM (#4211016)
If people must know, Paul Ryan wealth comes from a family trust. He did it like all good American males do it. He married into money.

Rep. Paul Ryan changed his financial disclosure documents this spring to show the addition of a trust valued between $1 million and $5 million, while Mitt Romney’s campaign was vetting him for the Republican presidential ticket.

[url=http://blogs.wsj.com/washwire/2012/08/17/paul-ryan-discloses-1-million-to-5-million-family-trust/]The trust came from his wife’s inheritance from her mother’s estate in 2010.
[/url]
The Ryans’ estimated net worth exceeds $4 million, and his overall assets, including the trust, range from about $2 million to $7 million, putting him in the ranks of American’s wealthiest families but well below Mr. Romney’s net worth of about $250 million.
   2680. SteveF Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:36 PM (#4211019)
We don't worry too much about what a baseball player did in the minors once we have four years of data on him in the majors. We have four years of data on Obama as president. That should be sufficient to make the only judgment on him that seems relevant -- i.e. whether he should get another four.

Frankly, I find myself preferring ineffective Democratic presidents over all-too-effective Republican ones these days.

Harvard Law Review is (or was, I haven't seen what the application contest looks like since the mid 90's) a research/writing contest. It's all about how well you can write, and to a lesser extent, Bluebook. Obviously, those are the relevant skills for editing a law review, so I cannot imagine anything has changed. I'm not sure it's a good preparation for anything but clerking, but a good chunk of Harvard law students clerk for a year.
   2681. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:54 PM (#4211034)
Liar.


Poopyhead.
   2682. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:55 PM (#4211037)
He did it like all good American males do it. He married into money.


John Kerry without the social conscience? No thanks, man.
   2683. SteveF Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:56 PM (#4211039)
John Kerry without the social conscience? No thanks, man.


Clearly you aren't aware of the sodium content in ketchup.
   2684. CrosbyBird Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:59 PM (#4211040)
I guess I should also extend the caveat that I've known people who got really good grades and people who got relatively poor grades, and of the people I would consider 'geniuses' (or at least, really, really smart) -- more of them slotted into the latter class than the former... at least, that's what I tell myself!

It's a threshold issue more than a direct relationship. It's very difficult to get good grades if you're not smart, but you certainly don't have to be really, really smart. You just have to be moderately smart and work hard. On the other hand, you can be anywhere from brilliant to dumb-as-a-box-of-rocks and get poor grades if you don't work hard. You can also get lousy grades if you aren't good at conforming, especially under certain professors.

My history throughout school (from elementary school to law school) is doing very little work and getting average to slightly-above-average grades. I am a very good test taker so long as the test doesn't require memorization, at which point I'm probably just good.
   2685. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 17, 2012 at 07:02 PM (#4211046)
The thing about ages of law students is interesting. Has this been consistent going back to the '70s and '80s, or is it more of a recent trend? Among the lawyers I know, taking a year off between undergrad and law school was unusual, let alone 5 years. The most successful ones all seemed to go straight through with no break at all. (A couple actually did undergrad in 3 years just to get a head start on law school.)
   2686. Steve Treder Posted: August 17, 2012 at 07:04 PM (#4211048)
My history throughout school (from elementary school to law school) is doing very little work and getting average to slightly-above-average grades.

As an undergrad, my academic scholarship required the maintenance of at least a 3.0 GPA. I graduated with, you guessed it, a GPA of something like 3.0000001.
   2687. Steve Treder Posted: August 17, 2012 at 07:06 PM (#4211051)
The thing about ages of law students is interesting.

Actually I find it tedious and stupid, but YMMV.
   2688. Greg K Posted: August 17, 2012 at 07:09 PM (#4211055)
The thing about ages of law students is interesting. Has this been consistent going back to the '70s and '80s, or is it more of a recent trend? Among the lawyers I know, taking a year off between undergrad and law school was unusual, let alone 5 years. The most successful ones all seemed to go straight through with no break at all. (A couple actually did undergrad in 3 years just to get a head start on law school.)

I can't say for certain about university in general (and can't speak to Law School at all except to say I have one friend that went to law school and he did it around the age of 26 or 27. He's now a lawyer and possibly the dumbest person I've ever met) but it seems to me like undergrad is becoming increasingly irregular. Growing up I was under the impression that university was pretty much just four years and you're out. But of all the people I went to school with (2002-2006) in a broad range of subjects I'd say about 10% of them did it in four years.

EDIT: I did it in four years plus an extra semester. Partly because I'm lazy and partly because I had the hare-brained idea to take Latin as my mandatory language credit only to drop it before the first class...which I guess can be lumped in with the laziness excuse.

2nd EDIT: Just as an example of the mental capabilities of my lawyer friend...
He once got stuck in some snow on a back-lane highway, so he decided to weigh down the accelerator with a brick while he dug himself out...in the process of which he locked himself out of the car and had to wait around for the engine to seize up.

Instead of scraping off his entire car windshield in the winter he'd just make a hole about 4 inches in diameter and lean over the wheel peering out of it.

Before becoming a lawyer he wanted to be a cop and during the application process for the Edmonton police force he mentioned that he had been driving while intoxicated the night before.

And best of all...this is a conversation I over-heard from the next room while he was playing Madden with his brother

Friend: Touchdown!!! WE ARE MARSHALL!
Brother: huh? What does that mean?
Friend: It's from a football movie, moron. About some guy named Marshall.
   2689. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: August 17, 2012 at 07:16 PM (#4211059)
I don't doubt that Obama is a bright guy, but we're also talking about a guy who started law school at age 27. Like a 25-year-old in the New York–Penn League, a 27-year-old should do well in law school relative to his 22-year-old classmates, both academically and politically.


Wow. And on the day the words "flimsy excuse" were redefined, we stood in awe and watched.
   2690. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: August 17, 2012 at 07:20 PM (#4211062)
And best of all...this is a conversation I over-heard from the next room while he was playing Madden with his brother

Friend: Touchdown!!! WE ARE MARSHALL!
Brother: huh? What does that mean?
Friend: It's from a football movie, moron. About some guy named Marshall.
that has to be ironic, right?
   2691. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 17, 2012 at 07:20 PM (#4211063)
I don't doubt that Obama is a bright guy, but we're also talking about a guy who started law school at age 27. Like a 25-year-old in the New York–Penn League, a 27-year-old should do well in law school relative to his 22-year-old classmates, both academically and politically.

Wow. And on the day the words "flimsy excuse" were redefined, we stood in awe and watched.


Yeah, I don't really understand why a 27 year old would have a leg up on a 22 year old in law school in the first place. Joe, I presume you didn't go to law school. Do you have stats showing that older students do better?

   2692. Greg K Posted: August 17, 2012 at 07:23 PM (#4211064)
that has to be ironic, right?

Nope, I can understand it's hard to believe, but I was room-mates with the guy at the time and I knew exactly what he meant as he was saying it. I had to try really hard to keep my laughter below a certain volume.
   2693. McCoy Posted: August 17, 2012 at 07:46 PM (#4211076)
I had a friend who was book smart but pretty dumb about a lot of things and had no real clue how to interact within society. Anyway, pronunciation wasn't his strong suit. For instance we got into a 20 minute argument because he was dead sure that it was "starport" instead of "starboard". As you can tell this happened in age before the internet and smartphones. He also firmly believed that Chopin's name was pronounced choppen.
   2694. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: August 17, 2012 at 07:54 PM (#4211080)
Harvard Law Review is (or was, I haven't seen what the application contest looks like since the mid 90's) a research/writing contest. It's all about how well you can write, and to a lesser extent, Bluebook. Obviously, those are the relevant skills for editing a law review, so I cannot imagine anything has changed. I'm not sure it's a good preparation for anything but clerking, but a good chunk of Harvard law students clerk for a year.

All this time, I assumed the HLR was something you had to grade onto. But I guess it's literally true that you can have bad first-year grades, and still be an "editor."
From their website:

"44 students are invited to join the Review each year. Fourteen editors (two from each 1L section) are selected based on a combination of their first-year grades and their competition scores. Twenty editors are selected based solely on their competition scores. The remaining editors are selected on a discretionary basis. Some of these discretionary slots may be used to implement the Review's affirmative action policy."

The HLR "President" used to be based purely having the top grade of all the editors, but by Obama's time it was voted on by the editors themselves.
So I guess that's literally true, too: you can get bad grades, and still be President of the Harvard Law Review.

I do find it kind of hard to picture BHO worrying all that much about being a Top Grade Person.
(we now return your off-topic conversation to its true off-topic topic, which is already in progress)
   2695. Steve Treder Posted: August 17, 2012 at 07:56 PM (#4211082)
He also firmly believed that Chopin's name was pronounced choppen.

Well, the Polish pronunciation is "Szopen," so maybe that's not so bad.
   2696. Steve Treder Posted: August 17, 2012 at 07:59 PM (#4211085)
Do you have stats showing that older students do better?

Surely you jest. Though I'm confident that Joe will now perform a "quick Google search" and assure us all that he does.

   2697. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 17, 2012 at 08:01 PM (#4211087)
"44 students are invited to join the Review each year. Fourteen editors (two from each 1L section) are selected based on a combination of their first-year grades and their competition scores. Twenty editors are selected based solely on their competition scores. The remaining editors are selected on a discretionary basis. Some of these discretionary slots may be used to implement the Review's affirmative action policy."


Well, I'm kind of surprised by this, although I suppose I shouldn't have been.

Clearly it curtails the general argument I made with law reviews. I don't know that someone with "bad grades" would have made it on to law review at Harvard, but, from this it appears that less than stellar grades/writing competition are not necessarily a barrier. Because if they were, there would be no reason to make the bold-faced statement to begin with.

Though that is still not evidence that Obama was not a good student at Harvard Law.
   2698. McCoy Posted: August 17, 2012 at 08:03 PM (#4211089)
, the Polish pronunciation is "Szopen," so maybe that's not so bad.

Nah, he was using a hard "cha" sound like chop.
   2699. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 17, 2012 at 08:06 PM (#4211094)
Yeah, I don't really understand why a 27 year old would have a leg up on a 22 year old in law school in the first place. Joe, I presume you didn't go to law school. Do you have stats showing that older students do better?

I thought the rule of thumb was that slightly older grad students did better because they're more mature and more likely to truly want to be there, but I can't find stats either way. (I did find a study that says law students with kids perform miserably, but that's not unexpected and it wouldn't have applied to Obama.)

If the average age of a starting law student is 27 now and/or was 27 then, I guess the whole thing is moot. It seems hard to believe that there's an average of a five-year gap between undergrad and law school, or even a three-year gap at the top-14 schools.
   2700. SteveF Posted: August 17, 2012 at 08:12 PM (#4211099)
Getting good grades in Law School isn't much evidence of anything except your ability to do well in law school. You could probably learn all you needed to in one semester, frankly, and pick the rest up as you go along. They had a saying there. The B students end up working for the C students, and the A students end up clerking.

Pretty much all you need out of Harvard Law School happens the day you are admitted.

When I was there in the mid 90's, I was expecting the place to be significantly more diverse than it was. I'm no fan of affirmative action, but it was pretty surprising how white and male the place was. I don't think the admissions department was exactly going out of their way to admit minorities, but maybe the admissions pool was just so overwhelmingly white and male. If the law review had a more aggressive policy regarding affirmative action, it probably would have been even easier to make it as a minority.

But I didn't run into many dummies in my time there, much less dummies on the law review. (That probably means I was the dummy.)
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