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Wednesday, August 01, 2012

OTP- August 2012: The Leader Post: New stadium won’t have same appeal, says Bill ‘Spaceman’ Lee

“Building a new stadium down the street does not work unless (Ron) Lancaster spilled some DNA in the lot where they’re going to build the new stadium,” he added. “You have to refurbish (Mosaic Stadium). You’ve got to can all new ideas you might have and use the sacred ground. Fenway did that and that is why Fenway is loved. The new Yankee Stadium isn’t the same as it used to be.”

The former Boston Red Sox and Montreal Expos pitcher will not be running for the vacant mayor’s position in Regina later this year. With his opinion on the new stadium, he wasn’t sure he would garner many votes anyway. But that is nothing new to the former member of the Rhinoceros Party. Lee ran on the Rhino ticket in 1988 for president of the United States. Not surprisingly, he didn’t make the ballot in a single state. He said one of the high-ranking members within the party gave him a six-pack of Molson Canadian and asked him to run for president.

“I adhered to their funny philosophy,” Lee said. “My campaign slogan was ‘No guns, no butter. They’ll both kill you.’ And I only campaigned in federal prisons where I knew they couldn’t vote, and I only accepted a quarter in campaign contributions.”

With it being an election year in the U.S., Lee said he is all in for the re-election of Barack Obama.

“The only time (Mitt) Romney opens his mouth is when he needs to change feet,” Lee said of the Republican nominee. “If Obama does lose this, which I can’t see happening, then it’s because of a lady in Florida who works for Jeb Bush and Diebold, the voting-machine company. If Obama even comes close to losing this election, it’ll be fraud.”

Guess what, its the new OT politics thread!

Tripon Posted: August 01, 2012 at 12:04 AM | 5975 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: boston, politics

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   4601. SteveF Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:31 PM (#4221252)
racists are a decreasing share


I'm not sure this is true, but certainly fewer and fewer of the racists will be non-hispanic whites.
   4602. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:44 PM (#4221269)
Is Joe aware that even people on his purported political side don't even defend his stances?


I regard Joe's performance on this thread like SBB's on the Jack Morris threads.
I think he's having fun.


Dan on the other hand I do not think is having fun.

With respect to Obama, drone killings, Bradley Manning and the advancement of the surveillance state, I have slowly [perhaps too slowly] come to the opinion that Obama's actions (and inactions) are just too odious to ignore. That is why I'm seriously considering Gary Johnson.

Of course I'm not in a swing state, if I was I'd have to vote Obama, because, among other things Romney has surrounded himself with the very same neo-cons who essentially set all those things into motion in the first place.

   4603. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:47 PM (#4221277)
Considering that you seem unaware that Ted Cruz was born in Canada, I'm not sure how much you really know about Ted Cruz yourself. (smile)
I will bet any amount of money that Cruz will never be president. He was born in Canada.

Ted Cruz was born in Canada to a U.S. citizen mother and, thus, is a natural-born citizen under 8 USC § 1401(g). Glad I could clear that up for both of you.

***
I believe the name calling. Which is odd because Joe is a big boy, the names have not been that bad, and plenty of name calling has flowed both Left to Right and Right to Left.

I'm a big boy and don't care about name-calling, but the latter statement above is patently false. Non-liberals are outnumbered here by about 10 to 1, and they're outnumbered in name-calling by about 30 to 1. Maybe MCoA or 'robinred' can do one of their patented thread accountings and list all of the insults hurled by liberals and insults hurled by non-liberals. I'm sure the liberals will be shocked, just shocked, at the results.
   4604. zonk Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4221288)
racists are a decreasing share




I'm not sure this is true, but certainly fewer and fewer of the racists will be non-hispanic whites.


Assuming this is a nod towards the concept of 'reverse racism' - my question on that is always "does it matter"?

I mean - I'll readily grant you can find folks from any minority group who are prejudiced against whites/other minority groups.

But what does it matter?

Whether you want to look at the halls of government, the boardrooms of corporations, the bosses of businesses, the heads of private clubs, etc - those 'reverse racists' don't really have any levers of power anywhere to do much except stew in their prejudices.

I'm not making any judgments one way or another about whether the black panther is worse than the klansman -- I'm simply saying that as a practical matter -- the klansman has an easier time making his way in the world than does a black panther, regardless of whether both keep their mouths shut or not.

Heck - the panthers don't even get 'dog whistles' - they get 'Sister Souljah moments'.
   4605. SteveF Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:57 PM (#4221299)
Assuming this is a nod towards the concept of 'reverse racism'


It isn't. I'm simply stating the obvious - the natural capacity for racism isn't inversely proportionate to skin pigmentation. As the demographics change the social circumstances which give rise to racism will change. It could be that this will result in less racism, but the cynic in me thinks otherwise.

There will be fewer and fewer racist non-hispanic whites primarily because there will be fewer and fewer non-hispanic whites.
   4606. Lassus Posted: August 29, 2012 at 12:59 PM (#4221304)
Ted Cruz was born in Canada to a U.S. citizen mother and, thus, is a natural-born citizen under 8 USC § 1401(g). Glad I could clear that up for both of you.

KAPOW!

I'm not even making fun of you, Joe, that's a great takedown, well-done.

Your other thing, well, I'm bored, maybe I'll run up a count.
   4607. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:01 PM (#4221306)
Spanning the globe for today's "WTF Moment"!


The owner of an Indian clothing store said Wednesday that he would only change its name from "Hitler" if he was compensated for re-branding costs, amid a growing row over the new shop.

The outlet, which sells Western men's wear, opened 10 days ago in Ahmedabad city in the western state of Gujarat with "Hitler" written in big letters over the front and with a Nazi swastika as the dot on the "i".

"I will change it (the name) if people want to compensate me for the money we have spent -- the logo, the hoarding, the business cards, the brand," Rajesh Shah told AFP.

He put the total costs at about 150,000 rupees ($2,700).

Shah insisted that until the store opened he did not know who Adolf Hitler was and that Hitler was a nickname given to the grandfather of his store partner because "he was very strict".

"I didn't know how much the name would disturb people," he told AFP by telephone from Ahmedabad. "It was only when the store opened I learnt Hitler had killed six million people."

...

The row evoked memories of a controversy six years ago when a Mumbai restaurant owner called his cafe "Hitler's Cross" and put a swastika on the hoarding, claiming Hitler was a "catchy" name.

The restaurant owner eventually agreed to change the name after protests by the Israeli embassy, Germany and the US Anti-Defamation League.

Hitler attracts an unusual degree of respect in some parts of India, with his book "Mein Kampf" a popular title in bookshops and on street stalls.

Gujarat schoolbooks issued by the Hindu nationalist state government were criticised a few years ago for praising Hitler as someone who gave "dignity and prestige" to the German government.



Link, with Photos!
   4608. formerly dp Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4221312)
Non-liberals are outnumbered here by about 10 to 1, and they're outnumbered in name-calling by about 30 to 1. Maybe MCoA or 'robinred' can do one of their patented thread accountings and list all of the insults hurled by liberals and insults hurled by non-liberals. I'm sure the liberals will be shocked, just shocked, at the results.


Whinebitchmoan. You troll with non-sequitor insults about "liberals," and then develop a persecution complex when you get called a troll for doing so.

I'm sure if you counted, you'd find Joe often uses "I'm sure if you counted, you'd find X" as proof that X has actually been found, rather than offering real evidence in support of his claim.
   4609. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:05 PM (#4221314)
The outlet, which sells Western men's wear, opened 10 days ago in Ahmedabad city in the western state of Gujarat with "Hitler" written in big letters over the front and with a Nazi swastika as the dot on the "i".

The swastika was something important in India before the Nazi's defiled it.
That said, it's obvious what this guy was doing was using the Nazi version instead of the old Hindu one.
   4610. The Good Face Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4221323)
The row evoked memories of a controversy six years ago when a Mumbai restaurant owner called his cafe "Hitler's Cross" and put a swastika on the hoarding, claiming Hitler was a "catchy" name.


Eh, it's got nothing on this guy.
   4611. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4221330)
Shah insisted that until the store opened he did not know who Adolf Hitler was and that Hitler was a nickname given to the grandfather of his store partner because "he was very strict".

"I didn't know how much the name would disturb people," he told AFP by telephone from Ahmedabad. "It was only when the store opened I learnt Hitler had killed six million people."

I might have been willing to believe this guy was just really stupid until I clicked the link and saw a swastika prominently featured in the store's sign. Wow.

***
You troll with non-sequitor insults about "liberals," and then develop a persecution complex when you get called a troll for doing so.

It's really amazing how much the word "liberal" riles liberals. I've never heard a conservative or libertarian complain about either word being used or overused.

***
Side note to Lassus: I think you asked me something about being on Ignore, but I'm too lazy to re-read the last two pages to find it. FWIW, I don't have you or anyone else on Ignore, and you wouldn't be in the top 10 if I were to start using it. (Neither would Shipman.)
   4612. zenbitz Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:22 PM (#4221335)
Well, he's right, it IS catchy!


Still,too soon. Maybe in 2050.
   4613. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:27 PM (#4221338)
You troll with non-sequitor insults about "liberals," and then develop a persecution complex when you get called a troll for doing so.

It's really amazing how much the word "liberal" riles liberals. I've never heard a conservative or libertarian complain about either word being used or overused.
Note the difference. No one cares that the word is used in general. The issue is that, if you counted, you'd see that about a third of your posts in this thread begin with some random insult hurled at "liberals". Folks who identify as liberals respond just like you want them to - by being annoyed at the insult.
   4614. Greg K Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:32 PM (#4221345)
Shah insisted that until the store opened he did not know who Adolf Hitler was and that Hitler was a nickname given to the grandfather of his store partner because "he was very strict".

A friend of mine worked at a high school with a teacher who had never heard of Hitler. Or at least claimed to have never heard of him. I have no idea why someone would lie about it, but it's bizarre enough that I'm not closing any possible explanations.
   4615. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4221349)
Well, he's right, it IS catchy!


Still,too soon. Maybe in 2050.


Vic Hitler the narcoleptic comic


Seriously, if Hitler's father's real name wasn't Schicklgruber, it was Heidler...

Anyway Hitler/Heidler/Heitler are all variations on the same name, which brings me to two of [Adolph] Hitler's hatreds,
Jews and Czechs,

a Heidler was/is the patron saint of the Czechs
and a Heitler was the Director of the Jewish Lawyer's Guild in NYC...


   4616. zonk Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4221360)

The swastika was something important in India before the Nazi's defiled it.
That said, it's obvious what this guy was doing was using the Nazi version instead of the old Hindu one.


Yeah - my sister-in-law is nominally Hindu - and despite ample warnings to our family/friends, there was an audible gasp at the ceremony when these two 'banners' are held aloft on either side of the bride/groom during the nuptials and among the symbols was a swastika. I believe the original meaning of the symbol was 'good luck'.

Of course, the origin of Hitler is Adolf Hitler - so I don't quite think it counts here.
   4617. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:55 PM (#4221368)
The Boyscouts have an honor society named the Order of the Arrow, the Scouts used to have group called the Order of the White Swatstika- one of my scoutmasters had been member and still had a patch - said the name was changed some time in the 1930s/40s for some reason or other...
   4618. Steve Treder Posted: August 29, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4221370)
The swastika was good, until it went too far.
   4619. JuanGone..except1game Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4221375)
The swastika was good, until it went too far.


Trains did run on time though.....
   4620. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4221376)
But what about the economy? The economy expanded more than previously estimated in the second quarter.

As the JetBlue CEO said "The U.S. economy is not rip-roaring, but it’s certainly not on its heels”.

And thus it goes, never bad enough to doom Obama or even cause the Fed to do anything about it, but never good enough to doom Romney.


And Joe: Even if your claims about the numbers of liberal versus conservative insults are true (and I think your numbers are ridiculous) I never said there were equal insults, I said there were plenty of insults going both ways - and that is about as far from untrue as I can imagine.
   4621. bunyon Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:05 PM (#4221378)
A friend of mine worked at a high school with a teacher who had never heard of Hitler. Or at least claimed to have never heard of him. I have no idea why someone would lie about it, but it's bizarre enough that I'm not closing any possible explanations.

I have known many people, who have been through K-12 and at least a few years of college, who have all sorts of bizarre gaps in their knowledge. Thinking Kennedy was a founding father or Pearl Harbor kicked off the Civil War (both true). Uninterested people may take in a quarter or less of the stuff they hear and then process it in their own unique way. I can easily imagine some ignorant dolt having only a vague knowledge that a man named Hitler once existed and that a swastika is involved without any real understanding of the story.

As for swastikas, it's history is far longer than it's use as a Nazi symbol and it will, probably relatively soon, be back to its previous glory.
   4622. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:05 PM (#4221379)
Trains did run on time though.....


Hey now German trains ALWAYS run on time.
   4623. JE (Jason) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:07 PM (#4221382)
David Chalian suddenly has a lot of free time on his hands. Maybe he should join this thread?
   4624. zonk Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:09 PM (#4221388)
Too bad it was actually Mussolini and the Italian fascists that actually boasted of their train schedule keeping abilities ;-)
   4625. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4221411)
David Chalian suddenly has a lot of free time on his hands. Maybe he should join this thread?

Liberal bias? What liberal bias?

TAMPA, Fla. -- Yahoo News has fired Washington bureau chief David Chalian after he was caught on a hot-mic during an online video broadcast today saying that Mitt Romney and his wife, Ann, had no problem with African Americans suffering as a result of Hurricane Isaac, a source familiar with the situation tells POLITICO. (Now confirmed: see below)

"They're not concerned at all. They're happy to have a party with black people drowning," Chalian said during the ABC News/Yahoo News webcast, in reference to the fact that the GOP convention in Tampa is taking place as Hurricane Isaac makes landfall on the north Gulf coast.

This guy was only the former political director of ABC News and Yahoo! News D.C. bureau chief.

But move along, nothing to see here ...
   4626. McCoy Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:24 PM (#4221415)
It might be true that on BTF liberals outnumber conservatives 10 to 1 but if that is true it is likely because of the face of the conservative group here is rather embarassing. Head over to the forums and you'll find plenty of conservatives who are stating that they are rather embarassed by what righties on the main board are saying and how they are saying it.

If you want to change the ratio stop being, well, you.
   4627. Steve Treder Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:29 PM (#4221420)
Head over to the forums and you'll find plenty of conservatives who are stating that they are rather embarassed by what righties on the main board are saying and how they are saying it.

A function, no doubt, of the liberal bias of the forums.
   4628. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:29 PM (#4221421)
Joe, I'll concede liberal media bias based on the one incident, if you concede GOP racism based on the peanut throwing incident at the GOP convention.
   4629. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4221422)
It might be true that on BTF liberals outnumber conservatives 10 to 1 but if that is true it is likely because of the face of the conservative group here is rather embarassing. Head over to the forums and you'll find plenty of conservatives who are stating that they are rather embarassed by what righties on the main board are saying and how they are saying it.

If you want to change the ratio stop being, well, you.

LOL. I've only been posting here for about a year and a half. Were all those Lounge conservatives active in these threads from 2004 until 2010? I kind of doubt it.

Regardless, by your logic, Sam Hutcheson's threats of neck-stabbings and general nastiness should have sent BBTF's liberals for the exits years ago. I guess there's yet another double standard in effect here. Shocking.
   4630. formerly dp Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4221423)
This guy was only the former political director of ABC News and Yahoo! News D.C. bureau chief.


Wow, the conspiracy must be true!

And like all good conspiracies, the fact that social scientific studies have failed to find any evidence of a systemic liberal bias in media content only serves as further evidence of said conspiracy's existence.
   4631. JE (Jason) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4221424)
Karen Bass (CA-33) is plurality Hispanic.

Andre Carson (IN-7) is majority (~65%) white.

William Clay (MO-1) is split 50/50.

Emmanuel Cleaver (MO-5) is 70% white.

Keith Ellison (MN-5) is 75% white.

Al Green (TX-9) is about evenly split 1/3 white, 1/3 black, 1/3 latino.

Barbara Lee (CA-9) is plurality white.

Sheila Lee Jackson (TX-18) is another roughly 1/3-1/3-1/3 district.

Gwen Moore (WI-4) is majority white.

Charlie Rangel (NY-15) is actually majority Latino.

Laura Richardson (CA-47) is almost majority Latino.

Maxine Waters (CA-35) is almost majority Latino.

Mel Watt (NC-12) is majority white.

Assuming everything above is accurate, we have three districts where a majority-white district elected an African-American Democrat. Mazal tov!

To the extent that this is true, it's largely because of a de facto alliance between African American legislators and conservatives on the state level, both of whom benefit by the sort of gerrymandering that produces congressional districts that force few of either of those groups to have to compete for swing voters. If the lines were drawn so that more districts contained a bigger number of swing voters, I think you'd find more black congressmen representing majority white districts.

That's not my point, Andy. In Democrat-leaning districts where whites are in the majority, or even a mere plurality, African-American Dems have a difficult time winning elections.

And now that Obama is POTUS, why is Blue State America without a single African-American Democrat senator?

As you are no doubt aware, African-American politicos in Maryland are not exactly pleased at how the Baltimore-dominated machine treats them. Ditto in Jersey. The late Donald Payne was beyond furious when he was passed over for a Latino, Bob Menendez, after Frank Lautenberg retired.
   4632. Steve Treder Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:33 PM (#4221426)
And like all good conspiracies, the fact that social scientific studies have failed to find any evidence of a systemic liberal bias in media content only serves as further evidence of said conspiracy's existence.

We're through the looking glass here, people!
   4633. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4221429)
Ted Cruz was born in Canada to a U.S. citizen mother


It'll be fun to watch the birthers try to distinguish this from their beef with Obama.
   4634. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4221431)
Joe, I'll concede liberal media bias based on the one incident, if you concede GOP racism based on the peanut throwing incident at the GOP convention.

Ha ha. One incident? Does over 90 percent of the news media voting for Dems count as "one incident"? Does the media giving over 90 percent of its political contributions to Dems count as "one incident"?
   4635. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4221433)
Ted Cruz was born in Canada to a U.S. citizen mother and, thus, is a natural-born citizen under 8 USC § 1401(g).


Are you sure? Have you seen his birth certificate?
   4636. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4221435)
Assuming everything above is accurate, we have three districts where a majority-white district elected an African-American Democrat.
Five, actually. Compared to one district where they elected an African-American Republican. This seems like a good description of where we are on race in America - white people of all political leanings still have a lot of unconscious prejudice to work through, but it's worse among Republicans by about a factor of five.

EDIT: This was a dumb post, I'm just needling JE. eh, back to work.
   4637. DA Baracus Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:40 PM (#4221438)
In fact, government documents on the bailout obtained by Rolling Stone show that the legend crafted by Romney is basically a lie. The federal records, obtained under the Freedom of Information Act, reveal that Romney's initial rescue attempt at Bain & Company was actually a disaster – leaving the firm so financially strapped that it had "no value as a going concern." Even worse, the federal bailout ultimately engineered by Romney screwed the FDIC – the bank insurance system backed by taxpayers – out of at least $10 million. And in an added insult, Romney rewarded top executives at Bain with hefty bonuses at the very moment that he was demanding his handout from the feds.


-Liberal Rag Rolling Stone
   4638. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:41 PM (#4221439)
It'll be fun to watch the birthers try to distinguish this from their beef with Obama.

It's simple, really: The birthers* claim Obama was born outside the U.S. to a non-citizen father and a U.S. citizen mother, the latter of whom hadn't accrued enough time in the U.S. after age 14 to qualify Obama for birthright citizenship. Once again, glad I could clear this up for you.


(* I am not now, nor have I ever been, a "birther.")
   4639. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4221445)
Does the media giving over 90 percent of its political contributions to Dems count as "one incident"?

Do you mean 90% of the people, or 90% of the money?
Because if it's 90% of the people, maybe that's true.

But considering FOX News and the money spigot they set up for the Republicans (through donations, free air time, or simply promoting their events non-stop) and almost all the major corporate media CEOs being Republican backers, I'm pretty sure the money side of things leans heavily towards the Republicans.
   4640. billyshears Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:44 PM (#4221446)
Liberal bias? What liberal bias?


In a sane universe, the democratic leanings of the people who have the best access to political information would be something republicans were embarrassed by, rather than used as evidence of their persecution.
   4641. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4221447)
Ha ha. One incident?


Yes the one incident of the news guy who was canned. You know the one we were talking about and you used as an example? As you say, glad to help you out :)
   4642. BDC Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:46 PM (#4221448)
Perhaps needless to say (or already said upthread), but Democrat Barack Obama was elected Senator from ~78% white Illinois, and then President of the ~75% white United States :)

Edward Brooke is still alive at age 91. He represents a somewhat earlier black Republican constituency, not far from Jackie Robinson, his contemporary: very liberal and active on civil-rights issues. I don't see any black Republicans like him on the scene today.
   4643. formerly dp Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4221449)
Ha ha. One incident? Does over 90 percent of the news media voting for Dems count as "one incident"? Does the media giving over 90 percent of its political contributions to Dems count as "one incident"?


I provided you with links to several studies from social scientists who study media bias for a living. I'll continue to assume that you elected to dismiss their findings because they don't conform to your worldview.

And precisely what type of bias are you alleging? Gatekeeping bias? Coverage bias? Statement bias? Institutional bias? There are refined and established methods for studying each of these. Or are you not actually interested in translating your thesis into something that can be nullified?

Repeatedly whinebitchmoaning about liberal media bias, and then failing to back that up with reference to evidence that actually proves what you're alleging, is just more poo-flinging.
   4644. JE (Jason) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4221450)
This was a dumb post, I'm just needling JE. eh, back to work.

OK, I laughed out loud at this comment. I always suspected MCoA had a well-camouflaged gentle side!
   4645. Kiko Sakata Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4221451)
Assuming everything above is accurate, we have three districts where a majority-white district elected an African-American Democrat.


The state of Illinois is 78% white according to the U.S. Census and we've elected two African-American Democratic U.S. Senators in the past 20 years. You've probably heard of at least one of them.
   4646. JE (Jason) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:48 PM (#4221452)
Perhaps needless to say (or already said upthread), but Democrat Barack Obama was elected Senator from ~78% white Illinois, and then President of the ~75% white United States :)

Two words: Alan Keyes.
   4647. formerly dp Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4221454)
But considering FOX News and the money spigot they set up for the Republicans


The "liberal media bias" thesis pretends FOX doesn't exist, and ignores the fact that explicitly and nakedly conservative viewpoints dominate the whole medium of talk radio.
   4648. GregD Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:50 PM (#4221455)
Edward Brooke is still alive at age 91.
The love of Barbara Walters' life!
   4649. Kiko Sakata Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:51 PM (#4221456)
Two words: Alan Keyes.


Carol Moseley Braun defeated a white man. And I'm fairly sure John McCain is white, too (as were Obama's primary opponents in both his Senate and Presidential runs).
   4650. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:51 PM (#4221458)
This story is a great example for the Shliefer/Summers thesis that leveraged buyout firms do not provide value to the economy, but instead make profits by breaking non-contractual trust between owners, managers, workers, creditors and other stakeholders. Romney saved Bain by engineering a $10M federal bailout. He won this bailout by threatening to effectively steal the company's massive cash reserves and give them to partners as bonuses. Any sense of responsibility either to employees or creditors is missing - what makes money here isn't actual productive economic activity but the breaking of trusts not secured by contract.

The key excerpt:
According to the government records obtained by Rolling Stone, Bain & Company "defaulted on its debt obligations" at nearly the same time that "W. Mitt Romney . . . stepped in as managing director (and later chief executive) in 1990 and led the financial restructuring intended to get the firm back on track."

...

With his rescue plan a bust, Romney was forced to slink back to the banks to negotiate a new round of debt relief. There was only one catch: Even though Bain & Company was deep in debt and sinking fast, the firm was actually flush with cash – most of it from the looted money that Bill Bain and other partners had given back. "Liquidity is strong based on the significant cash balance which Bain is carrying," one federal document reads.

Under normal circumstances, such ample reserves would have made liquidating Bain an attractive option: Creditors could simply divvy up the stockpiled cash and be done with the troubled firm. But Bain had inserted a poison pill in its loan agreement with the banks: Instead of being required to use its cash to pay back the firm's creditors, the money could be pocketed by Bain executives in the form of fat bonuses – starting with VPs making $200,000 and up. "The company can deplete its cash balances by making officer-bonus payments," the FDIC lamented, "and still be in compliance with the loan documents."

What's more, the bonus loophole gave Romney a perverse form of leverage: If the banks and the FDIC didn't give in to his demands and forgive much of Bain's debts, Romney would raid the firm's coffers, pushing it into the very bankruptcy that the loan agreement had been intended to avert. The losers in this game would not only be Bain's creditors – including the federal government – but the firm's nearly 1,000 employees worldwide.
Now back to work?
   4651. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:51 PM (#4221459)
The relative scarcity of female and minority politicians is a bit of a disgrace. I am not sure where the gotcha is for all of this though. Dems are bad, but not as bad the the GOP? Ummm, ok?
   4652. McCoy Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:51 PM (#4221460)
LOL. I've only been posting here for about a year and a half. Were all those Lounge conservatives active in these threads from 2004 until 2010? I kind of doubt it.

Regardless, by your logic, Sam Hutcheson's threats of neck-stabbings and general nastiness should have sent BBTF's liberals for the exits years ago. I guess there's yet another double standard in effect here. Shocking.



A lot of them were active in political threads during that time your ability to embarass your fellow conservatives is not unique.

   4653. JE (Jason) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:53 PM (#4221462)
Wait a sec: Weren't there a few voices here from back in the day opining that the right-wing was too racist to back a Mormon? Based on his current favorables among self-identified Republicans/conservatives, may we finally bury this load of nonsense once and for all?
   4654. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4221463)
And precisely what type of bias are you alleging? Gatekeeping bias? Coverage bias? Statement bias? Institutional bias? There are refined and established methods for studying each of these. Or are you not actually interested in translating your thesis into something that can be nullified?

Have you forgotten your own comments in #3688? If so, here's a refresher:

The way more interesting conversation here is around the systemic factors that go into determining which stories get covered, how they get framed, ect. Those are where the biggest flaws with US journalism lie today.

This was obviously an accidental admission against interest, but your quote above is a very succinct description of liberal media bias at work.
   4655. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4221468)
#4653. No the talking point was the evangelical wing was too "Christian" to ever back a Mormon. This was usually followed by, "But someone has to win, and if not Romney then who?"

I do agree it was posited, and it does appear hatred of the Kenyan Socialist outwieghs dislike of Mormons. Well that or the theory that the Money wing of the GOP continues to use the Faith wing as suckers, and the suckers have not clued in yet, is strong.

Anyway beyond the random snark I am not very surprised, but many folks are (or should be) by the fact that the base came home for Romney.
   4656. JE (Jason) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:04 PM (#4221476)
1. Party A has a pretty tight grip on a large group of voters.
2. As long as that group supports party A, party B does what it can within the law to limit the group's influence.
3. Party B does not hate the group, either collectively or as individuals. Ultimately, party B seeks to convince the group that its policies are more likely to benefit the group than party A's policies. (Of course, we can debate the wisdom of this approach.)

Does that sound about right?

And for the record: I don't believe that Democrats hate the men and women in uniform. ;-)
   4657. billyshears Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:08 PM (#4221478)
Re #4650: I don't really think that story supports the referenced thesis. In that instance, Bain/Romney were acting as principal, rather than as the purchaser in an LBO transaction. Also, I don't see how Bain exploited any non-contractual trust in that scenario. It seems more to me that they exploited a gaping hole in their loan agreement, which is more than fair in a transaction between sophisticated parties. I can't fault Romney for his actions in that scenario.
   4658. zonk Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:11 PM (#4221481)
Assuming everything above is accurate, we have three districts where a majority-white district elected an African-American Democrat. Mazal tov!


Ummm -- OK -- wait... you can't use your bar as "majority/plurality" for your own purposes, but then set the bar at "MAJORITY" on the other end when the facts conflict with your original thesis.

What's more - you have to remember context... There are 39 Democratic members of the CBC (I'm not counting the DC and Virgin Islands delegates). It's not like there are a ton of black lawmakers to begin with.

How about you just admit that you were wrong in your original statement? Is that so difficult?

I won't dispute that it's far easier for an African-American to get elected from a majority AA district... but your original point was well beyond that, and I think the facts say you were wrong.
   4659. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:11 PM (#4221483)
But Bain had inserted a poison pill in its loan agreement with the banks: Instead of being required to use its cash to pay back the firm's creditors, the money could be pocketed by Bain executives in the form of fat bonuses – starting with VPs making $200,000 and up. "The company can deplete its cash balances by making officer-bonus payments," the FDIC lamented, "and still be in compliance with the loan documents."


a lender that agrees to that deserves to get screwed.
   4660. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4221488)
Does over 90 percent of the news media voting for Dems count as "one incident"? Does the media giving over 90 percent of its political contributions to Dems count as "one incident"?


What makes you think that distribution is arising out of an inherent bias, as opposed to a series of people independently arriving at the same conclusion through objective analysis? I.e. journalists as high-information voters disproportionately voting for Dems because the Dems' policies are, when viewed dispassionately, better for those journalists?
   4661. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4221489)
Ummm -- OK -- wait... you can't use your bar as "majority/plurality" for your own purposes, but then set the bar at "MAJORITY" on the other end when the facts conflict with your original thesis.

[...]

How about you just admit that you were wrong in your original statement? Is that so difficult?

I won't dispute that it's far easier for an African-American to get elected from a majority AA district... but your original point was well beyond that, and I think the facts say you were wrong.

Yeah, instead of three blacks elected from majority-white districts, five blacks were elected from either majority-white or plurality-white districts. Huge difference. [insert eye roll here]
   4662. JE (Jason) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4221491)
Carol Moseley Braun defeated a white man.

From 1993 until 2009, there was a single African-American in the US Senate. Congrats!

As for CMB, she capitalized on the anti-incumbent, Year-of-the-Woman sentiment to unseat Alan Dixon, a moderate D from downstate.

So when will we see the next Moseley Braun? What's stopping other blue states from electing African-American Ds?
   4663. GregD Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:19 PM (#4221493)
And for the record: I don't believe that Democrats hate the men and women in uniform. ;-)
I hope they don't, since active (as opposed to retired) military men are basically exactly as likely to be conservative/moderate/liberal as civilians who share their characteristics of race/age/income. There are suggestions that more liberal to liberal-moderate soldiers identify as Neutral, rather than Democrats, compared to the civilian population but no one can say for sure since that can't be asked and has to be extrapolated. Democrats do much better among women than men, and men are not only hugely represented in the military but over-represented in most surveys of active military, but Democrats don't seem to do any worse among men who are in the military than they do with similar men who are not in the military. overview
   4664. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:19 PM (#4221494)
Does that sound about right?


umm no, it doesn't sound right whether Party A is the Repubs and the "group" are the men and women in the military, because the Dems (B) are not trying and have not tried "to limit the group's influence." (Though Repubs have falsely claimed they have).

It also does not sound right if Party A is the Dems and the Group are minorities, because the Repubs (or many of them at the very least) really do hate minorities (collectively) and instead of seeking to convince them that their policies would benefit them, seeks to suppress their influence - by legal and dubiously legal means.
   4665. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4221495)
A lot of them were active in political threads during that time your ability to embarass your fellow conservatives is not unique.

Any "conservative" whose inclination is to cower in the Lounge rather than make his case here isn't much of a conservative.

If liberals aren't embarrassed by you and Sam, I'm quite confident I haven't been chasing conservatives out of here. I might humor myself by talking about "liberals," but I don't stalk anyone or threaten people with neck-stabbings.
   4666. formerly dp Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4221499)
This was obviously an accidental admission against interest, but your quote above is a very succinct description of liberal media bias at work.


Huh? You sound like you're just doubling down on the conspiracy theory: the absence of evidence of a conspiracy itself proves the conspiracy.

You could just take a stab at reading the linked social science pubs on the subject. Worth it for the lit reviews alone, which provide a nice orientation to a debate you apparently know nothing about.
   4667. The Good Face Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:25 PM (#4221503)
But considering FOX News and the money spigot they set up for the Republicans


The "liberal media bias" thesis pretends FOX doesn't exist, and ignores the fact that explicitly and nakedly conservative viewpoints dominate the whole medium of talk radio.


I'm sure conservatives would be delighted to trade you FOX and talk radio in exchange for all broadcast news, all cable news other than FOX, NPR, and the majority of all newspapers.

This guy was only the former political director of ABC News and Yahoo! News D.C. bureau chief.


Impossible, we've been assured that all mainstream media editors and management are rock-ribbed conservatives who would pounce on any sign of liberal bias with the quickness.
   4668. JE (Jason) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:25 PM (#4221504)
How about you just admit that you were wrong in your original statement? Is that so difficult?

I admitted to being sloppy. I am happy to do so again. (No, that's not what she said.)

Perhaps you can acknowledge the overall lack of AA representation from D districts that are not minority majority. Or if you prefer, white majority. Or if you prefer, white plurality.

I think it was McCoy who pointed out that Tim Scott won 2-1 in a district that is overwhelmingly white *and* uber-conservative. If racism is rampant in the GOP, how can this be? Is he a "clown" too?
   4669. McCoy Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:27 PM (#4221508)
If liberals aren't embarrassed by you and Sam, I'm quite confident I haven't been chasing conservatives out of here. I might humor myself by talking about "liberals," but I don't stalk anyone or threaten people with neck-stabbings.

I'm a liberal? Nor am I sure of what I am to be embarrassed about in these political threads.

Any "conservative" whose inclination is to cower in the Lounge rather than make his case here isn't much of a conservative.



Apparently the only true conservatives are the ones that act like trolls.
   4670. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:28 PM (#4221511)
Huh? You sound like you're just doubling down on the conspiracy theory: the absence of evidence of a conspiracy itself proves the conspiracy.

You could just take a stab at reading the linked social science pubs on the subject. Worth it for the lit reviews alone, which provide a nice orientation to a debate you apparently know nothing about.

Sorry, I had trouble reading this through all the smoke. Are you retracting this comment from #3688?

The way more interesting conversation here is around the systemic factors that go into determining which stories get covered, how they get framed, ect. Those are where the biggest flaws with US journalism lie today.
   4671. McCoy Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:30 PM (#4221513)
I think it was McCoy who pointed out that Tim Scott won 2-1 in a district that is overwhelmingly white *and* uber-conservative. If racism is rampant in the GOP, how can this be? Is he a "clown" too?

Boston Celtics fans loved Bill Russell. They most certainly didn't want him living next door.

Is racism rampant in the GOP? I doubt it. Do they at time pander to it or use it to get votes? They most definitely do.
   4672. JE (Jason) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4221518)
(Though Repubs have falsely claimed they have)

2000.

Both sides play this game.
   4673. zonk Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4221520)
Going back through the CBC-member represented districts --

As I noted, there are 39 Democratic CBC members (+1 Republican, 2 non-votinig 'delegates' from DC and VI).

So our dataset is 39 districts.

All are strong to very strong D districts -- only Allan West's FL-22 is anything approaching a swing district (it's a true toss-up, D+1 district). Next is NC-12 (D+9), IN-7 is "only" D+14, MO-5 is "only" D+10, and SC-6 is D+12.... so our data is comprised wholly of what we could consider "strong" Democratic districts (I think D+9 would be 'strong' Democratic... most of the others range from D+20something to D+30somthing).

I find that of those 39 districts, 24 of those districts actually have a 'majority' of any ethnicity. 17 are majority AA. 5 are majority white (I'm not going to go back and see who I missed -- or if you missed 2 in my list). 2 are actually majority hispanic. There's also Steve Cohen - who represents TN-9, a D+23, majority AA district.

Now -- given that several of those 'majority AA' districts are pretty hefty (i.e., 60%+ AA), which just logically means that the pool of candidates is likely TO BE AA, just based on sheer logic --

What more than 5 of 24 (out of 435 total) would be needed to disprove what I'll call the 'plantation theory'?
   4674. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4221521)
Apparently the only true conservatives are the ones that act like trolls.

Your lack of self-awareness is stunning. Your passive-aggressive baiting and stalking of me over the past few weeks has been the living embodiment of the word "troll."

Maybe MCoA or 'robinred' can compile a recap. It won't be pretty.
   4675. Greg K Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4221522)
The way more interesting conversation here is around the systemic factors that go into determining which stories get covered, how they get framed, ect. Those are where the biggest flaws with US journalism lie today.

Maybe you could be clearer on why that would have to be retracted. I assume both of you agree with this statement, you just disagree on what these systemic factors are.

Or I could be missing something entirely here.
   4676. BDC Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:37 PM (#4221523)
I think I posted this in the last politics thread (though when has repetition ever stopped me): black Republicans have been rare and marginal since the Civil Rights era, are still a lot rarer than black Democrats … and Tim Scott and Allen West represent something new in the GOP, black politicians who get a lot of white support (and hold ultra-right views). I doubt either of them is a tool or a Tom. They think for themselves, and it's good for everybody that they've succeeded democratically. I wonder where this trend will go next (or if it's a trend at all).
   4677. JE (Jason) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4221524)
Boston Celtics fans loved Bill Russell. They most certainly didn't want him living next door.

That goes against the 2008 Obama narrative.

Meanwhile, Biden's "chains" remark and Toure's bizarre use of the n-word are examples of boy-who-cried-wolf pandering.
   4678. The Yankee Clapper Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:45 PM (#4221527)
A friend of mine worked at a high school with a teacher who had never heard of Hitler. Or at least claimed to have never heard of him.

That's pretty damning either way.
   4679. Jim Furtado Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:46 PM (#4221530)
I haven't stopped in here in a few days. It's a great joy to see the same parties squabbling. Really?

Privately I have suggested that you both put each other on ignore. Since you don't seem to recognize the wisdom in that suggestion. I am now publicly suggesting you do it so that everyone who participates understands that baiting and trolling other members isn't acceptable.

If this behavior continues, you will both have your accounts suspended.

   4680. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:47 PM (#4221532)
Speaking of liberal bias, the Syracuse Post-Standard is cutting back to three days per week as of Jan. 1, 2013.
   4681. zonk Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:51 PM (#4221536)


Yeah, instead of three blacks elected from majority-white districts, five blacks were elected from either majority-white or plurality-white districts. Huge difference. [insert eye roll here]


Ummm -- no -- the original post was "none/are there any", I made a list that JE said had 3, reworking through the district demographics, I find 5.


Perhaps you can acknowledge the overall lack of AA representation from D districts that are not minority majority. Or if you prefer, white majority. Or if you prefer, white plurality.


There aren't a lot of AA's in congress period. Still - I'll pit "our" 5 against "your" 1 if you like (I can't add West to Scott because if we're talking about R or D lean districts - and as noted above, "no one" gets a D+1 district).
   4682. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:52 PM (#4221538)
Any "conservative" whose inclination is to cower in the Lounge rather than make his case here isn't much of a conservative.
Maybe they just don't want to argue politics on BBTF.

If liberals aren't embarrassed by you and Sam, I'm quite confident I haven't been chasing conservatives out of here.
Speaking as someone on the left, Sam embarrasses me often.
   4683. JE (Jason) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4221541)
In fairness, Zonk, your average voter would not think Congressman Butterfield was African-American unless they read his bio.

EDIT: Not that it matters that much: The 1st CD is minority majority, albeit barely.
   4684. formerly dp Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4221543)
Are you retracting this comment from #3688?


There's nothing to retract.

The way more interesting conversation here is around the systemic factors that go into determining which stories get covered, how they get framed, ect. Those are where the biggest flaws with US journalism lie today.


Those systemic factors, as I've explained, don't map neatly onto left/right biases. Horse-race journalism doesn't consistently benefit one party over another. The focus on sensationalism (if it bleeds, it leads) doesn't benefit one party over the other. The insistence on covering human-interest stories and celebrity gossip over and above hard news doesn't benefit one party more than the other. I think there are huge flaws with the state of commercial media in this country. I have never suggested otherwise.

The thing that started your whole meltdown on this issue, "the" media's (temporary) focus on abortion over the economy, in light of controversial statements by a Republican candidate for US senate, was what we call a "focusing event"-- like a dramatic shark attack*, it was a sensational story that focused media narrative (and story selection) around the issue of abortion. It's a week later, and the convention news has pushed it off the front page.

And: the US media campaigned openly for the US war with Iraq. When the war started, embedded journalists literally cheered when US soldiers killed Iraqis. Now, we could take this as evidence of a systemic conservative bias in the media, or we can try to explain it using other factors.

*11 years ago this week, right before 9/11, the biggest story of the news cycle was shark attacks, for at least a solid week, in spite of the fact that there are always shark attacks in late August.
   4685. McCoy Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:55 PM (#4221548)
nevermind
   4686. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 03:57 PM (#4221551)
"You're an awfully hard man to like, Hitler."

Anybody here ever see that movie?
   4687. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:05 PM (#4221559)
The insistence on covering human-interest stories and celebrity gossip over and above hard news doesn't benefit one party more than the other.

Human-interest stories definitely favor Dems. Every time the GOP talks about balancing the budget, the liberal media rolls out story after story about poor so-and-so whose benefits might be cut or whose special-needs child might end up homeless. They find the most sympathetic people they can find and then pretend they're representative of millions of people.

Remember when welfare reform was going to fill America's streets with people kicked off welfare? The media was shameless back then, and it's even more shameless now. This is why the media's trust/approval rating is only a little better than Congress'.
   4688. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:11 PM (#4221569)
*11 years ago this week, right before 9/11, the biggest story of the news cycle was shark attacks, for at least a solid week, in spite of the fact that there are always shark attacks in late August.
And as a reporter in Florida at that time, I had the shark-attack beat for a Very Large Wire Service. So, the pre-9/11 distractions, that was my work.

Well, I got an assist from Gary Condit, too.
   4689. formerly dp Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4221574)
Human-interest stories definitely favor Dems. Every time the GOP talks about balancing the budget, the liberal media rolls out story after story about poor so-and-so whose benefits might be cut or whose special-needs child might end up homeless. They find the most sympathetic people they can find and then pretend they're representative of millions of people.


Umm, no. This is pure conjecture.
   4690. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:15 PM (#4221578)
If this behavior continues, you will both have your accounts suspended.
Jim, can you please tell us who are the two "yous" of this statement?
   4691. Steve Treder Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:17 PM (#4221583)
Speaking as someone on the left, Sam embarrasses me often.

Likewise.
   4692. bunyon Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:22 PM (#4221592)
Well, I got an assist from Gary Condit, too.

I always thought they should have looked into Condit as the 9/11 mastermind.
   4693. JE (Jason) Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4221600)
Jim, can you please tell us who are the two "yous" of this statement?

Did you say "yutes?"
   4694. formerly dp Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:27 PM (#4221603)
And as a reporter in Florida at that time, I had the shark-attack beat for a Very Large Wire Service. So, the pre-9/11 distractions, that was my work.


Awesome. You guys did great work that week-- even in Idaho, people were turning away Candygrams left and right.
   4695. Joe Kehoskie Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:29 PM (#4221604)
Jim, can you please tell us who are the two "yous" of this statement?

Whoever they are, they should have their kids taken away.
   4696. McCoy Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:29 PM (#4221605)
I would guess it is me and Joe. Apparently people have complained about Joe and I talking to each other and so now Jim is threatening action unless we knock it off. Which I guess means the discussion really will get passive aggressive since I doubt he is going to stop expressing his viewpoint on politics nor am I with mine. For whatever reason multiple people on this site are allowed to go back and forth with each other for years and have it get heated but two minor characters that are involved in the saga are put on a short leash.
   4697. JL Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4221607)
Awesome. You guys did great work that week-- even in Idaho, people were turning away Cadygrams left and right.

But did they open the door for a dolphin?
   4698. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4221609)
I used to be uncomfortable regarding Sam, but slowly I have grown to appreciate the bit (as they say). It does require a special Sam filter though and would be annoying if I were on the other side.

I am assuming (hoping) I am not one of the "you" in Jim's email, but I don't think he warned me so I am likely not. I hope no one gets banned, because the world is emptier for it (Though I don't blame Jim, and actually this place is much more lenient than many sites regarding personal attacks).
   4699. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:41 PM (#4221622)
I would guess it is me and Joe. Apparently people have complained about Joe and I talking to each other and so now Jim is threatening action unless we knock it off. Which I guess means the discussion really will get passive aggressive since I doubt he is going to stop expressing his viewpoint on politics nor am I with mine. For whatever reason multiple people on this site are allowed to go back and forth with each other for years and have it get heated but two minor characters that are involved in the saga are put on a short leash.

How about a vote swap? I'll get in a flame war with you and someone mad at me can get into a flame war with Joe.
   4700. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: August 29, 2012 at 04:41 PM (#4221623)
For whatever reason multiple people on this site are allowed to go back and forth with each other for years and have it get heated but two minor characters that are involved in the saga are put on a short leash.
Maybe you and Joe could get a spin-off, like "Joanie loves Chachi", only it'll be "McCoy hates Joe K".
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