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Friday, February 01, 2013
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Yep.
It is and represents one of the major issues in complex team sports with constant movement and dynamic flow. American football game charting has the same issue. Still though as long as there is some consistency across games and seasons, we can still derive a lot of value from these values. Given the paucity of Opta's numbers it remains to be seen if this consistency exists.
He was 3 for 7 last season.
Possibly. The ability to get into clear scoring opportunities is one of the things that makes great scorers great.
It should also be noted that RVP's goal conversion (goals per total shots) is fourth best among players with 10 or more Big Chances this season. So, even though he isn't converting his Big Chances all that well, he's converting his shots as a whole.
So with RVP you have a guy with great movement and understanding allowing him to generate a ton of Big Chances combined with the ability to score in situations that aren't so clear cut. That's enough to make him pretty damn good one would think.
How true is this really? Well, they obviously struggle against Dortmund. But if you asked me to pick between a top 2 of Man City and Man Utd and Bayern and Dortmund I'd take the German teams. Germany is quite a bit better in terms of domestic football, which seems like it should help with lower/middle table teams. From brief experience it doesn't seem like they're any worse as far as having good international stars. People rag on Arsenal all the time here, but they always seem to be in 3rd or 4th in the EPL.
I think the EPL has become significantly overrated, and I think the Bundesliga is much more on the level of La Liga and EPL than Serie A or the French league.
SG - And seeing Cisse, Aguero, and RVP all go from top of the league to bottom, while Suarez switches bottom to top, certainly shows the variability of these numbers.
With rare exceptions I think finishing ability is overrated and very heavily based on chance. The value of RVP, Suarez, and a couple of these guys is that they can create "big chances" on their own with their class.
That was kind of the point, they have no depth. Bayer are a semi-decent, nothing special team. Maybe on par with Everton. Schalke is about the same, when they are functional (which they aren't right now). And after that, it gets really grim. Frankfurt who are currently slotted for a CL spot, got outplayed a man up by Dortmund last week. By a lot. Gladbach lost to Kiev in CL qualification. Meanwhile, Chelsea are the current CL winners, and Arsenal, before selling their best player, won a group last year, in which Dortmund finished last. There is no Chelsea, there is no Spurs, there is no Arsenal, there is no Liverpool in the German league, who can play up to the level of the big boys. It's all cupcakes.
Challenge time: Without looking it up, name a current German national team player, who plays club football at a German club, other than Bayern or Dortmund.
I checked the two players who came to mind immediately (one at Schalke, one at Bayer Leverkusen). It turns out the former only has three caps so far. I'm surprised, thought he had more (the latter has a number of caps/goals, as would be expected).
(not naming names so as not to spoil the game for anyone else who wants to play. I imagine most people here can get a fair few more than me off the top of their heads).
Before the January transfer, Holtby (sorta).
(Plus Draxler, who has a couple of caps, but is out injured)
I don't that it really counts though, I managed Schalke in one of my FM games, so I kinda pay attention to them ...
I'm not going to argue too much because I don't follow the Bundesliga, but there is absolutely no way Everton is dominating Arsenal on the road the way Bayern did today. Absolutely none.
"Bayer" is Bayer Leverkusen, not Bayern Munich.
01 Neuer (Bayern)
05 Hummels (Dortmund)
14 Badstuber (Bayern)
16 Lahm (Bayern)
20 Boateng (Bayern) (Mueller (Bayern)- 71')
06 Khedira (Real)
07 Schweinsteiger (Bayern)
08 Ozil (Real)
18 Kroos (Bayern)
10 Podolski (Arsenal)(Reus (Dortmund) - 46')
23 Gomez (Bayern) (Klose (Lazio)- 46')
Resume previous convo regarding the Bundesliga. I will go back to watching college basketball.
I'm hesitant to give much credit to Chelsea because they were horribly outplayed by Barca and Bayern. Yeah they won the CL, but that doesn't mean they deserved to or were one of the 20 best teams in Europe last year.
Beyond that, I try not to get overly attached to CL results. If you're going to badmouth the Bundesliga about those results, then you should basically say that the EPL is worse than the Portuguese league by Man City not making it out of the group stage 2 years in a row, and Man United losing to FC Basel last year to not make it out of the group stage. The CL is a ton of fun but really is about as predictive as the NFL or MLB playoffs as far as crowning the best team. Barcelona is the only exception to that rule, but even they lost to an extremely unimpressive, depressing Chelsea team last year.
I practically insist that you do.
And the last time either of Real and Barca didn't finish 1/2 was in 2004. Hell, the last time another team was within 20 points of either of them was 2009.
Except this year, of course :)
Edit to say that your point is taken.
I wouldn't have gotten any. I don't see why this matters though. Unless your argument is that Germany has been much better at the domestic level the last 15 years than England purely because of the starting 11 (which has completely turned over during this time, in most spots multiple times) rather than a much more logical explanation - they're better, as a country, at every level. The EPL has had some advantages in terms of the strength of the pound and good American TV contracts. It will be interesting to see how and if that changes.
Wandering over to FoxSoccerTv to watch what evidently wasn't a very impressive US u23 win over Haiti and they've got 2 different versions of the Arsenal v Bayern replay ... 1 with Gus Johnson and one without.
I wonder if that was done to cater to both their American and English subscribers, or if they got less than approving feedback from his initial effort ...
[edit]
Or ... today's game ... I only watched the 1st half and that was in a bar with the sound off, so I can't say, but this isn't very complimentary
And a domestic TV contract that is about 5 times higher than the Bundesliga's. And better gate.
And why it matters is that it's indicative not of the overall quality of German vs English talent, but that non-elite German teams can't afford to keep their good players. As soon as a player gets good for more than 6 months another team will swoop in. And they can rarely attract any elite talent from outside of Germany. Meanwhile, Newcastle is buying half the French national team. QPR are spending like drunken sailors...
Year ain't over, don't jinx it man.
Yeah, that's his biggest problem. His schitck is to be excitable, but he doesn't know enough about the game to offer insight while doing so. Same thing happened in the RM-MUN when he he screamed at a fairly routine De Gea save.
He's a really poor choice, but it's not like Fox has a ton of better options among their ranks.
There are only two clubs in the Premier League that are clearly better than Everton. This suggests equivalence between the German and English leagues, not divergence.
What I note here is that the Premier League has a big advantage in the high mid-range, but then a big disadvantage in the true middle range. After the top seven clubs in the Premier League, there are a whole lot of cupcakes. While the Bundesliga doesn't have a comparable share of Evertons and Tottenhams, they also don't have as many Norwiches. That seems roughly right to me on England, though I can't really speak to Germany.
By these ELO rankings, these are the top 20 clubs between the Premier League and the Bundesliga (listed with European ranking):
3) Bayern
4) Man U
5) Dortmund
7) Man City
11) Chelsea
14) Tottenham
15) Arsenal
17) Leverkusen
21) Everton
23) Schalke
25) Liverpool
26) Gladbach
32) Freiburg
36) Mainz
39) Hannover
41) Hamburglar
49) Stuttgart
54) Frankfurt
57) Werder
59) West Brom
Not saying it is a horrible black mark. I am saying outside of those games, they are rarely tested much in the league. They have lost their last 2 to Bayer as well, fwiw.
Disagree with the premise.
This is probably a function of the strong "high mid-range" in England making it all but impossible for most teams to get a shot in Europe. Parity is only a good thing, if it's at a high level.
English teams are also far more prone to phoning in the Europa league, since the relative rewards to the league money they are receiving are much smaller.
Seriously, we are still doing this. We know that most everyone dislikes Chelsea for various offenses, but "horribly outplayed" is a pretty ridiculous phrase for what happened in the CL. And not ranking them in the 20 best is equally silly. They won not one but two major trophies last season. Yes, their league record was relatively poor but there were multiple legitimate reasons for why that had nothing to do with how good their squad was.
May 19th could be a lot of fun:
Chelsea v Everton
Newcastle v Arsenal
Spurs v Sunderland
Wigan V Aston Villa
They're a top 20 teams in terms of talent but I don't think they played like it over the course of the year last year. I would say they were horribly outplayed by Bayern in the final. Bayern had 34 shots to 9. 21 shots on target to 6. 20 corners to 1. The game was almost exclusively played on Chelsea's half. I actually think it's ridiculous that anyone could have watched that game and thought differently.
I'm not saying ELO is precise but we are currently 11th, while being only 3 pts ahead of last year's pace during basically a 2 month swoon during AVB's final days. There isn't a chance that Chelsea didn't play like a top 20 team throughout the course of last season.
You can stay on that but whether its WhoScored, Zonal Ranking, etc., no one else agrees with that assessment. Bayern were tactically superior and I won't argue that, but not by much when soaking up pressure was Chelsea's game plan.
Fox has the financial ability to get a decent announcer. This is the equivalent of SkySports getting an MLB contract and putting Martin Tyler on the broadcast. Spend a few bucks and get a professional soccer announcer.
I lean heavily in favor of the understated when it comes to my announcers so I'm definitely not the Gus demographic. Just in general though I don't see the need to have a "name" announcer. The play by play man shouldn't be overwhelming the broadcast, he should be a complimentary piece, nothing more.
Oh don't you ####### start now...
Jonathan Wilson half-buries the Gunners:
Arsenal:
4 home vs. Bottom 10
2 home vs. Top 10
4 road vs. Bottom 10
2 road vs. Top 10
Tottenham:
3 home vs. Bottom 10
3 home vs. Top 10
2 road vs. Bottom 10
4 road vs. Top 10
Not a huge difference but edge to Arsenal on the schedule though that's marginally offset by the fact that the teams play at White Hart Lane a week from Saturday. The game at WHL between the two clubs is potentially the most important single game remaining in the EPL (well, the games between relegation foes are probably more important).
Neuer (Schalke)
Lahm (Bayern)
Mertesacker (Werder Bremen)
Friedrich (Hertha Berlin)
Boateng (Hamburg) (Jansen (Bayern) - 52')
Khedira (Stuttgart) (Gomez (Bayern) - 81')
Schweinsteiger (Bayern)
Trochowski (Hamburg) (Kroos (Leverkusen/Bayern) - 62')
Ozil (Werder Bremen)
Podolski (Cologne)
Klose (Bayern)
And, going back two more years, here's the full squad list for Spain–Germany at Euro 2008:
Lehmann (Arsenal)
Friedrich (Hertha Berlin)
Mertesacker (Werder Bremen)
Metzelder (Real Madrid)
Lahm (Bayern) (Jansen (Bayern) - 46')
Frings (Werder Bremen)
Hitzlsperger (Stuttgart) (Kuranyi (Schalke) - 58')
Schweinsteiger (Bayern)
Ballack (Chelsea)
Podolski (Bayern)
Klose (Bayern) (Gomez (Stuttgart) - 79')
Casillas (Real)
Ramos (Real)
Marchena (Valencia)
Puyol (Barca)
Capdevila (Villarreal)
Senna (Villarreal)
Iniesta (Barca)
Xavi (Barca)
Fabregas (Arsenal) (Alonso (Liverpool) - 63')
Silva (Valencia) (Cazorla (Villarreal) - 66')
Torres (Liverpool) (Gulza (Mallorca) - 78')
Yes, he is quite unsparing of Le Professeur in that piece. The portion I quoted isn't even the worst of it.
Just an excerpt:
So what are you looking for, I ask Allen, who says he has 'the eye’ – the ability to spot potential. (His 24-year footballing career straddles the extremes of running the Crown and Manor, a boys’ club in the East End, and looking after visiting elite international teams.) Technical skill, he says. 'It’s about trying to beat someone and get the ball past them, not pass it past them, we can all do that. Good movers, very smooth in the way they run. Plus they have to be willowy and athletic-looking. You don’t get many stocky players.’ But what about Maradona? Gazza? Rooney? There are always exceptions, he says. 'Scouting is not an exact science.’ Particularly with the wild card of puberty.
We watch the match. Number 5 looks great, but Number 3 is even better – floaty, graceful, his legs stretching and powering with mesmerising athleticism. 'He’s a nicer shape,’ Allen enthuses. 'More slimline rather than heavy in his legs [like Number 5]. He is quick and agile and that is important in the modern game.’ This may be why Number 3 has been scouted not only by Tottenham, but also by Charlton, Chelsea and Arsenal. And he is still only seven. But then young talent is like nectar, enough to get seasoned football addicts wide awake and licking their lips.
I look at Number 5, cheated of his dream by heavy legs. Summer-borns are similarly outcast. Far more Premiership footballers are born in October and November than in June and July. 'They are bigger and make more of an impact on the pitch,’ White says, 'then, of course, they get selected, better coached and leave the other guys behind.’ What else do you need? Parents with cars and the kinds of jobs where they can drive to training twice a week for 5pm. 'When I went to Manchester United Academy what struck me was the car-park full of smart cars,’ White says. 'The academy is in the middle of nowhere. There is no way you can get there unless you’ve got a car. No way you can get there three or four times a week unless your parents take you. What that is doing is middle-classing the game. The whole system precludes kids from the rougher end of town, because how the hell do you get there?’ Take Theo Walcott, the England starlet, who came through the academy system at Southampton. His father served in the RAF, his mother is a midwife; his grandfather was an RAF Warrant Officer and one of the first black Conservative councillors in Britain.
Later, Allen gives me the results: 10 of the 67 boys were signed.
AND she buys me poseur soccer shirts for Christmas! Like when Emile Heskey scores a goal, I don't question the magic.
No worries. Would you rather be a rosbif, or a frog? Or a cheese-eating surrender monkey?
For sure. My main point was that Benteke doesn't get disqualified for any of the reasons Wenger likes to trot out for why he won't buy players. If he won't buy Benteke, then Arsenal are well and truly cooked.
The English league has been the most successful in getting sugar-daddies willing to buy their way into league titles and Champions League spots. Even with all the revenue that Chelsea brings in, it still needs massive injections from Roman every year to fight for top four.
But I'm a quarter rosbif and frog! Ach!
And indeed, Arsenal does have the easiest schedule remaining. These are strength of schedule remaining as a % of average team quality. So "-9%" means your schedule is 9% easier than an average schedule.
Arsenal: -9%
Chelsea: +14%
Everton: -2%
Tottenham: +5%
You might ask, how does that translate into expected points? I have no idea.
(Chelsea really do have a tougher schedule going forward. They have five more games against top-7 clubs, and they've already played both the home and road games against bottom-dwellers Reading, Wigan and QPR.)
Schalke and Hoffenheim have been exceptions to the rule and Dortmund was in the financial wilderness for a while, but yeah, Bundesliga teams are more financially prudent compared to England.
Well that's kind of the point I was trying to make all along. When non-elite German clubs manage to find a player who is actually top quality player, he's gone in a year. Obviously there are buyer and seller clubs in the PL too, but it's not nearly of the same order of magnitude.
If anyone is interested, Spurs vs PSG in the Nextgen will be available on illegal streams at 11 am. Spurs will have a weakened team after sending a bunch of players out on loan including Ryan Mason and Alex Pritchard, but it could still be interesting. PSG are pretty stocked with young guns in their own right and are the favorites in the game.
The loans haven't really gone well this year, with the exception of Adam Smith and Danny Rose, though I don't think Rose has a future with Spurs.
Ryan Mason to Lorient looks like it could be a good one.
Rose is going to be interesting this offseason. He appears to have turned himself into a legitimately good player. I have to think that Levy could wrangle £10M out of someone for him, given his youth and Englitude. On the other hand, it would be pretty Levy to cut bait on BAE (29 next year, this is about the last chance to get a transfer fee) and replace him with a younger version. I love Benny, but Daniel Levy doesn't feel emotions, so that probably won't make a difference. I don't know what the right call is, objectively.
(Benny did this. You have to love that man.)
This is actually becoming a concern now in the US. Parents are purposely holding back their kids from school so they can get an advantage in athletics. I'm guessing its been going on awhile in Texas but has been spreading throughout the country. I seem to recall that 60 Minutes did a piece where some parents are purposely holding their kids back for social and academic reasons now.
It's weird, too. Bill James pointed out the advantages of age nearly 30 years ago, yet coaches and scouts fail to account for it.
It would seem there's a market inefficiency here that could be exploited just by focusing solely on kids with May-June-July-August birthdays, since it seems they are largely getting dismissed out of hand in some circles.
Or it could be the bitterness talking, since TE Jr. is a July birthday...
Not August, at least not here in SoCal. Here the soccer cutoff is July 31. But yes, there likely is such an inefficiency and a good coach could exploit it.
PSG and Spurs tied at 1 and are into extra time. Chelsea are up on Barca 1-0 at the half. Liverpool vs Sporting Lisbon just getting started,
I know coaches that have made noises about exploiting the effect, but maybe the damage is done and irreversible well before they get up there.
I think it would be tough to make such a disconnect even in a sport like baseball which has measurable statistics that can help show the promise of a slightly younger player. Soccer doesn't really have those metrics to assist in making that argument. And that's before even considering the US model's problem with the helicopter parents raising a fuss that their child that is 15 months older than the youngest isn't getting the staring role he/she deserves ...
Same in Germany. Of course my birthday is in the last week of the year...
My numbers also agree with this (which I referenced in the original post). My SOS(negative is better):
Arsenal: -8.6%
Everton: +1.3%
Tottenham: +6.9%
Chelsea: +12.5%
With that said, my ratings have Arsenal a fair distance behind Everton and the Spurs (and Liverpool too, btw) and those numbers are inflated due to the various blow outs the Gunners have been involved in. My personal opinion is that Arsenal is even worse than my ratings suggest, probably behind Liverpool (with Sturridge and Coutinho) and Chelsea (with Mikel). I just don't see them closing the gap.
Yeah, one of the reasons I wasn't on the Chelsea bandwagon early was their SOS. They started with @WIG, RDG, NEW, @QPR, STO and won @ARS while being arguably outplayed and then got to face the Spurs while Bale was busy having a baby. No shocker they started out at the top of the table.
By the same token, Southampton started with @MCI, WIG, MUN, @ARS, AVL, @EVE. Not too shocking they only pulled 3 points in that span (although losing at home to Wigan was a disappointment for certain).
Is this new? I played with two guys growing up that were held back in 7th grade in order to improve their chances at athletic glory in high school. One was only 3 weeks older than I so not really a big deal. The other was 11 months though and really did have an advantage. He also started roiding (at his parent's request) at the age of 14. Guy had pecs the size of softballs before he had chest hair. I guess it worked though because it was a 5th-7th (can't remember) round draft choice of the Phillies and signed for about $100K.
I graduated 19 years ago btw.
Also, Chelsea up in Barca 2-0 late in that game. Premier League teams are 3 for 3 today and it's not like they were taking down minnows--PSG, Barca and Ajax academies are no joke.
Because we relentlessly fact-check professional writers here, I have no choice but to apply the same standards to you and say that either you're talking about this guy, or you are SENILE AND ARE A LAZY BASTARD WHO CAN'T BE BOTHERED TO GET HIS FACTS STRAIGHT!
edit: link removed
Super Shaq scored the goal for Tottenham, by the way. I want to believe!
Wow, that is scary impressive. Now if you could delete the link I would be much obliged.
EDIT: Thanks kindly. I have no idea how you did that, but that was most certainly him. He was a helluva defensive player, but had a slow bat and couldn't hit anything with real velocity. When he did get a hold of it though it went a long way.
Just don't cross Crispix Attacks. His ominous handle doesn't do his top secret NSA clearance justice.
Now, back to soccer. Is Metalist / Newcastle the big hipster match today?
Naw, today is the day of the False Nine.
In a matter of minutes, you can track down an obscure draft pick from almost two decades ago based on limited information, but you can't figure out that Ropey League games are on Thursdays?
you can't figure out that Ropey League games are on Thursdays?
I honestly never realized there was a regular pattern to when the games are. The Champions League and Europa League seem to be nearly always on weekdays. League games seem to be nearly always on weekends. National cup games could be either. That's all I've figured out over the past 5 years.
And Altintop misses a relatively easy chance off a rebound. Drogba created it, looking like he's still Drogba.
Recommend the Galatasaray-Schalke game (well, to everyone but ultra-hipster Arjun). Looks like lots of goals to come.
I think this is very true. It'd be nice to have some way to estimate the size of the effect at younger ages, the way James did with MLB. Can't say I have any real idea how to do that, though. Maybe group the kids by birth month and compare that way, but sample size....
Barca deserves to lose for those Hot Wheels themed kits.
Champions League games are Tuesdays or Wednesdays. Europa League games are Thursdays. Now you know. And knowing is half the battle.
Now I want "football ultra-hipster" on a shirt <.<
Can Barca win 3-0 at home? Not convinced they can.
I'm in this camp more than Barca playing badly. El Shaaraway's pace was the perfect release valve for Barca's pressure. I normally don't think of Milan as a great defending team but Messi had absolutely no space to move.
I give Roman crap, but he's done an excellent job in recent years improving the academy. There are some really good Chelsea products coming down the pike starting with Chalobah at Wattford who might be the best player in the Championship.
Turkish teams always seem like that, because players go there in the prime of their careers and are never mentioned again by the English-language press.
Whatever happened to...
Dirk Kuyt?
Raul Meireles?
Joseph Yobo?
Moussa Sow?
Ibrahima Sonko?
Maurice Edu?
Anton Ferdinand?
Hugo Almeida?
Scott Carson?
Allan McGregor?
Johan Elmander?
Gretar Steinsson?
Trésor Lomana LuaLua?
Didier Zokora?
Ruud Boffin? (West Ham #2 keeper for a couple years)
Fernando Muslera? (Uruguay keeper at the last World Cup)
Eduardo? (Portuguese keeper at the last World Cup)
I'll have to check with my agent.
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