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Tuesday, January 01, 2013

OT: The Soccer Thread: January 2013

Because the first sporting event of 2013 that I watched was a soccer match.

fra paolo Posted: January 01, 2013 at 03:38 PM | 1784 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: soccer

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   101. Mattbert Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:34 AM (#4337860)
Fulham is less obvious than the big two, but everything I've read suggests they're substantially subsidized by periodic donations/loans from Al-Fayed. Bolton surely had more than a whiff of patronage; sort of a Chelsea writ small.

If you're going to put Liverpool in the money-in/money-out bucket, I think Spurs and Everton clearly qualify as well by whatever measure you choose to make that distinction.

Stoke seem to have bought an awful lot of players and sold comparatively few in the last couple years to be fully self-sustaining unless their revenues have skyrocketed since becoming a regular in the top flight.

If you cut "make their money back on a sale" out of the equation, you could easily consider the Yankees to be a "patronage" when in fact they're a massively successful business because of the appreciation of team prices.

Is that a good comparison? I would have thought the Yankees' payroll:revenue / wages:turnover ratio would be way, way better than that of just about any English football club. Speaking as a Red Sox and Tottenham fan, I would much rather own the Yankees than Spurs. From a business perspective anyway.
   102. CWS Keith plans to boo your show at the Apollo Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:36 AM (#4337865)
I can't vouch for the credibility of this guy, but if the following is true, it's a good illustration of the previous conversation on why looking at the transfer fee by itself isn't always a good idea:

Ba: 7mil fee, 5mil agents fees, 6-7mil a year for 4.5 years, can't be insured. He'd cost somewhere between 39 and 42mil in total.

Link.
   103. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:38 AM (#4337869)
He'd cost somewhere between 39 and 42mil in total.

Holy Toledo!
   104. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:40 AM (#4337871)
This is a nice gesture

But I'll be more impressed if this happens during a game the players care about.
   105. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:40 AM (#4337873)
Forbes has estimated the Yankees operating income at $10-20M. That's good, but it's peanuts compared to the profits attainable by selling the Yankees.

I was wrong to use the term "patronage" - my point was more that cutting re-sale / franchise value out of the equation leads to a significantly flawed picture of the financial state of a sports team.

Generally, it seems to me that super rich people really love owning sports teams, and if you own a sports team, you usually have the option of selling it to a super rich person for a lot of money. And with the growing richness of the super rich all over the world, that's only making it a better investment.
   106. I am going to be Frank Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:41 AM (#4337874)
I would guess the only really "safe" clubs are Man U, Chelsea, Arsenal, Liverpool, Tottenham and City. Even City is dubious if the sheikh gets bored and decides to pull out - there were in Division 3 back in 1999. I could see Everton potentially being in trouble once Moyes leaves and they make a bad manager decision. Leeds is a big club and they've still haven't returned. Ken Bates is a reprehensible human being but it wasn't like there was a huge line to buy Leeds when they went into bankruptcy.
   107. Mattbert Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:42 AM (#4337877)
Newcastle was Ashley's plaything when he first bought it then he realized that he didn't know what he was doing, hired Pardew who bought a bunch of French league players, got them decent again and then promptly gave him a 20-year contract (ok only 8.5 years).

I still say there's shenanigans there. Pardew has denied it, but there were persistent rumors that he'd racked up some considerable debts to some regular gambling buddies: Mike Ashley and Derek Llambias.
   108. Mattbert Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:49 AM (#4337881)
My point was more that cutting re-sale / franchise value out of the equation leads to a significantly flawed picture of the financial state of a sports team.

Generally, it seems to me that super rich people really love owning sports teams, and if you own a sports team, you usually have the option of selling it to a super rich person for a lot of money. And with the growing richness of the super rich all over the world, that's only making it a better investment.


Yeah, I'm on board with all this. I think the earlier point about the lack of relegation risk for American sports franchises making them a lot more attractive as investment vehicles is a good one, though.

There's definitely a vanity aspect to all team ownership, but I think the scales in football are tilted more toward that end of the spectrum (as opposed to the business/moneymaking end) more often than they are in our domestic sports. There are precious few English clubs I'd buy with the expectation of making a lot of money, whereas I'd happily write a check for just about any American team you'd care to name (besides the NHL). Assuming someone would sell me one for like thirty grand, anyway.
   109. Mattbert Posted: January 03, 2013 at 01:51 PM (#4337990)
@SpursOfficial: We're delighted to announce that we have reached agreement with Standard Liege for the signing of Zeki Fryers.
Wow, the rumors were true. Ha. Up yours, Fergie!
   110. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 03, 2013 at 01:52 PM (#4337991)
Spurs sign Zeki Fryers from Standard Liege. The reported fee is £3M, half the expected fee that Tottenham would have had to pay United under the tribunal system in the fall. Looks pretty clearly like an under the table deal by Daniel Levy to save few million pounds.

EDIT: Ah, coke to Mattbert.
   111. Mattbert Posted: January 03, 2013 at 01:59 PM (#4338000)
I wonder if we'll see that loophole closed eventually.
   112. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 03, 2013 at 02:04 PM (#4338008)
I wonder if we'll see that loophole closed eventually.

Yeah, I brought this up in last month's thread. It definitely seems underhanded, but, then again, I believe Man U has someone that actually sits on the tribunal that determines these fees so I can't blame Levy for getting sneaky. 6 million for Fryers was a pretty ridiculous fee and Man U shouldn't have been dicks about it. Putting that aside, long term, the FA needs to fix this as it will be smaller clubs that will get hurt by these kind of shenanigans.

Also, with Fryers coming aboard and Adam Smith impressing the hell out of everyone, I think that's about it for Danny Rose as a Spur. Only one goal but he'll always be a legend because of it.
   113. DA Baracus Posted: January 03, 2013 at 02:12 PM (#4338019)
It's interesting to me that American sports are generally ignored outside of North America (there are of course exceptions) but we've got all the money. Case in point:

I can't vouch for the credibility of this guy, but if the following is true, it's a good illustration of the previous conversation on why looking at the transfer fee by itself isn't always a good idea:

Ba: 7mil fee, 5mil agents fees, 6-7mil a year for 4.5 years, can't be insured. He'd cost somewhere between 39 and 42mil in total.


In the NFL, NBA and MLB we wouldn't give pause to a 4/$40M contract to a player with a bum knee. The player would either produce and be worth it or they'd just cut him or pawn him off to another team. A player like Torres would have been cut by now, Andy Carroll and Wesley Sniejder would have been unloaded for late draft picks, etc. But the biggest teams in the biggest leagues in the biggest sport in the world can't afford to eat the money.
   114. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 03, 2013 at 02:20 PM (#4338036)
I don't know if it matters, but evidently it was Mancini that attacked Balotelli today after Balotelli tackled Scott Sinclair with what Mancini considered undue recklessness. Is this his Woody Hayes moment? Although, if Mourinho doesn't even miss a game for cowardly assaulting another team's coach, I can't imagine this will cause many ripples. I think it's funny that Balotelli may not have been the nutter in this situation though he did drive off in a "camouflaged bentley" making him still a nutter, but a different kind than Mancini. Those Italians, huh? Long may they bring a little of that Serie A magic to England!
   115. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 03, 2013 at 02:41 PM (#4338063)
   116. Mattbert Posted: January 03, 2013 at 03:03 PM (#4338089)
I love that Harry's big present to himself after toppling Chelsea is apparently going to be Tal Ben Haim.
   117. vortex of dissipation Posted: January 03, 2013 at 03:06 PM (#4338096)
I think it's funny that Balotelli may not have been the nutter in this situation though he did drive off in a "camouflaged bentley" making him still a nutter, but a different kind than Mancini.


Oh, he does actually drive this. Pics.
   118. Mattbert Posted: January 03, 2013 at 03:34 PM (#4338128)
Richard Jolly does that thing that I said drives me bonkers:
It has not escaped attention that Liverpool, with their track record of paying over the odds, enabled Chelsea to make a £5 million profit on a striking swap while bringing in Demba Ba, scorer of more league goals in 18 months at Newcastle than Sturridge has managed in his entire career. The Senegalese's chronic knee problems reduced his fee and will curtail his career but in the short term, Chelsea will have the better deal once it all goes through.
   119. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 03, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4338155)
West Ham after Marouane Chamakh. The final piece?
   120. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: January 03, 2013 at 04:09 PM (#4338160)
West Ham after Marouane Chamakh. The final piece?
Even though he's a striker--what I think they need--I oppose this move on the grounds that I will probably learn how one says his name just in time for him to be transferred to Ligue 1 or something where I'll ne'er hear it again.
   121. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 03, 2013 at 04:12 PM (#4338162)
Even though he's a striker--what I think they need--I oppose this move on the grounds that I will probably learn how one says his name just in time for him to be transferred to Ligue 1 or something where I'll ne'er hear it again.

I think his hair is enough to oppose this move. It is genuinely disgusting.
   122. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: January 03, 2013 at 04:15 PM (#4338168)
Just saw the Mancini/Balotelli photos. How the #### does Mancini keep his job? I can't think of another sport where a coach could physically attack a player and keep their job.
   123. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 03, 2013 at 04:20 PM (#4338177)
None of the news rags are making a big deal about the Fryers transfer which I find puzzling because of its larger implications. Fryers himself is probably not a big deal and I'd bet 20 bucks Fryers is never more than a token player for Spurs, but it seems to me the implications of clubs skirting the academy player tribunals would make a few people nervous.
   124. JuanGone..except1game Posted: January 03, 2013 at 04:21 PM (#4338181)
Randy Lerner has, as was noted above, a history of hiring mediocre management and giving them free rein. He's not blameless here.


As a big time Cleveland Browns fan <cough>Holmgren<cough>, I can second this assessment.

Reflecting the game tactically, I think 'Arry played it very well, and Benitez played it poorly. Benitez started two true wingers in Marin and Moses, but he was facing a 4-5-1 in which the fullbacks barely came forward at all and the wide midfielders carried significant defensive responsibilities too. The Chelsea wingers don't have a lot of creativity in their games and were mostly neutralized, and QPR still had three men in midfield to defend Oscar and Lampard through the middle. Luiz got free a bunch because QPR sat so deep, but he didn't do too much with the space.


Good assessment of that loss yesterday. Starting both Marin and Moses was ridiculous. Hazard or Mata needed to be out there, especially with our recent history of putting on crap performences against QPR. Marin is a disaster at this point. I don't want to right him off, but he's like a bad, small version of Arjen Robben out there. All he wants to do is cut inside which works 1 out of every 10 times. And he definitely should have been shown the door after that horrific tackle in the 1st. We need to give him back to Werder Breman and take back De Bruyne who looks like the much better player.
   125. jmurph Posted: January 03, 2013 at 05:27 PM (#4338275)
I think his hair is enough to oppose this move. It is genuinely disgusting.


Very rarely is the word "disgusting" used to describe a haircut, but it's very, very appropriate in this case. Does he not have friends? A girlfriend? A mirror?
   126. jmurph Posted: January 03, 2013 at 05:34 PM (#4338283)
Just saw the Mancini/Balotelli photos. How the #### does Mancini keep his job? I can't think of another sport where a coach could physically attack a player and keep their job.


Wow, those pictures don't look good. I've generally been a Mancini apologist, and as a fan of the team I hate to agree, but yeah, that's not okay. What if Balotelli had instinctively responded by pushing him to the ground, or punching him? That would have been the end to Mario's City career, I would think, and it would have been on Mancini.
   127. I am going to be Frank Posted: January 03, 2013 at 05:40 PM (#4338293)
Chamakh looks at Gervinho and thinks to himself, "my hair isn't even the worst on the Arsenal bench."

As much as we can blame Rafa for rotating (which he could never get the hang of at Liverpool either), they were playing QPR. Chelsea even with four or five non-regulars, who still are very good players, should have taken all three point relatively easily.
   128. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: January 04, 2013 at 01:06 AM (#4338661)
   129. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 04, 2013 at 08:14 AM (#4338743)
This was rumored to be basically a done deal for a while, and now Newcastle have purchased right-back Mathieu Debuchy from Lille and signed him to a long-term deal. The fee was only ~£5M, but Newcastle gave a 5.5 year contract to the 27-year-old to bring him in, so the cost on the acquisition seems to have run more to the wage side than the transfer fee side.

I haven't seen much of Debuchy besides his highly impressive international performances in Euro 2012 and that qualifying draw against Spain, but he looked like one of the best players on the pitch in almost all the games I saw. That's a pretty huge get. Newcastle may be paying for some unproductive years down the line in order to bring him in now, but it makes some sense for the Magpies to take on a little future risk now with relegation a looming present risk.
   130. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: January 04, 2013 at 08:25 AM (#4338746)
I can't think of another sport where a coach could physically attack a player and keep their job.
Didn't Bobby Knight get caught on tape choking a player at one point? Of course, that mostly just proves your point that it takes someone of Knight's stature to survive an incident like that.
   131. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 08:42 AM (#4338750)
Mancini has decided to take the high road and not punish Balotelli for being attacked by Mancini. So, he's got that going for him...

   132. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 09:19 AM (#4338762)
   133. zack Posted: January 04, 2013 at 09:56 AM (#4338777)
Brian Phillips on Blatter's MLS comments


This summer I rode up the C&O canal from DC and then cut over through southern Pennsylvania, some of the most back-country territory on this side of the Appalachians, and I saw like 3 Barca jerseys and a handful of other Euro teams. That felt to me like things have changed pretty drastically in the last 5 years.
   134. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: January 04, 2013 at 10:12 AM (#4338784)
It's interesting to me that American sports are generally ignored outside of North America (there are of course exceptions) but we've got all the money. Case in point:

I can't vouch for the credibility of this guy, but if the following is true, it's a good illustration of the previous conversation on why looking at the transfer fee by itself isn't always a good idea:

Ba: 7mil fee, 5mil agents fees, 6-7mil a year for 4.5 years, can't be insured. He'd cost somewhere between 39 and 42mil in total.



In the NFL, NBA and MLB we wouldn't give pause to a 4/$40M contract to a player with a bum knee. The player would either produce and be worth it or they'd just cut him or pawn him off to another team. A player like Torres would have been cut by now, Andy Carroll and Wesley Sniejder would have been unloaded for late draft picks, etc. But the biggest teams in the biggest leagues in the biggest sport in the world can't afford to eat the money.


You need to look deeper than one single transfer and signing. The EPL numbers stack up comfortably to those of major US sports. just a cursory 30 second google search turns up this for 2010/11:

Chelsea - £191m (up from £174m in 2009-10)
Manchester City - £174m (£133m)
Manchester United - £153m (£132m)
Liverpool - £135m (£121m)
Arsenal - £124m (£111m)


That's a wage bill of about $310m for Chelsea. The average EPL team seems to be around £60m just short of $100m. That's not including transfer fees, where EPL teams tend to be huge net spenders, and i assume not including agent fees.
   135. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 10:19 AM (#4338787)
Chamakh to West Ham. Meh, he may come good. Hopefully Kevin Nolan will make him wash his hair.
   136. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: January 04, 2013 at 11:13 AM (#4338833)
Chamakh to West Ham. Meh, he may come good. Hopefully Kevin Nolan will make him wash his hair.
I have no idea if any of these guys will turn out to be worth anything--I suspect no one does, really--but I like that they are at least taking some chances on guys like Chamakh, and Ravel Morrison. I'd rather take them then the likes of the warmed-over corpse of Wayne Bridge, for example.
   137. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 11:16 AM (#4338838)
I have no idea if any of these guys will turn out to be worth anything--I suspect no one does, really--but I like that they are at least taking some chances on guys like Chamakh, and Ravel Morrison. I'd rather take them then the likes of the warmed-over corpse of Wayne Bridge, for example.

I think there's hope for Chamakh. He's had his moments for Arsenal and then never really got a run when RVP got healthy. Chamakh and Cole seem like very un-Big Sam kind of players, which is interesting. Humorously enough, David Sullivan's son took to twitter to apologize to Hammer fans for the Chamakh signing.
   138. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 12:02 PM (#4338884)
   139. I am going to be Frank Posted: January 04, 2013 at 12:11 PM (#4338897)
Carlton Cole is still on West Ham, right? How long is Andy Carroll out for? It would seem to me that playing two of those three along with Nolan is a recipe for boring soccer.
   140. Mattbert Posted: January 04, 2013 at 12:13 PM (#4338902)
@SpursOfficial: We're delighted to announce that we have reached agreement with Lewis Holtby to join the Club in July from Schalke, subject to medical
ALL YUOR ATAKKING MIDS ARE BELONG TO US
   141. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 12:14 PM (#4338905)
Lewis Holtby is Spurs

Joining up in July. I am 1. kind of surprised as this came out of leftfield 2. Shocked Spurs concluded negotiations in the first week of the window.

Not sure what this means re: the Moutinho or Sissokho rumors, though. With Vertonghen, Kane, Parker and Holtby, Spurs are putting together quite the RAF unit. Good, clean-cut lads, one and all.

edit: Coke to Mattbert. I lose spending time being snarky. As usual...
   142. Mattbert Posted: January 04, 2013 at 12:20 PM (#4338915)
Not sure what this means re: the Moutinho or Sissokho rumors, though. With Vertonghen, Kane, Parker and Holtby, Spurs are putting together quite the RAF unit. Good, clean-cut lads, one and all.

Your snark is always worth the wait, big guy.

Don't forget Carroll in that RAF unit. Parker appears to have converted Michael Dawson to the straight and narrow as well. He's been rocking the smart part recently. Next up: Sigurdsson or Lloris.
   143. ursus arctos Posted: January 04, 2013 at 12:22 PM (#4338919)
To supplement FPH's 134, Sporting Intelligence did a survey of average salaries per player that had soccer teams in the first four places and seven of the top ten.

There are lots of issues with the data, including how you define a team in a sport without roster limits and how one treats bonuses, tax equalization and image rights deals and exchange rates, but those don't detract from the conclusion that clubs at the top of the European leagues spend a lot of money on payroll.
   144. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 12:25 PM (#4338925)
Next up: Sigurdsson or Lloris.

Hey now. Frogs don't have the bottle.

   145. Mattbert Posted: January 04, 2013 at 12:31 PM (#4338933)
Maybe if Bale started going to Scotty's barber, the officials would find his appearance more trustworthy.

"I dare say, a gentleman with such a respectable hairstyle would never lower himself to simulation! You have my confidence, good sir; a penalty it is."
   146. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: January 04, 2013 at 12:38 PM (#4338938)
Carlton Cole is still on West Ham, right? How long is Andy Carroll out for? It would seem to me that playing two of those three along with Nolan is a recipe for boring soccer.
You can't see it, but right now Big Sam is smiling and nodding.
   147. Juilin Sandar to Conkling Speedwell (Arjun) Posted: January 04, 2013 at 12:54 PM (#4338955)
Chamakh and Cole seem like very un-Big Sam kind of players, which is interesting.

Well, Chamakh's tag was always "good in the air", which seems like a very Big Sam thing to be, so maybe he's been purchased to further the aim of scoring on every single set piece?
   148. ursus arctos Posted: January 04, 2013 at 01:18 PM (#4338975)
Chamakh could be Exhibit A to any argument comparing the proficiency of Premier League and Ligue 1 defenses in combating aerial attacks.
   149. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 01:26 PM (#4338982)
Here's one for ursus...Giuseppi Rossi to Fiorentina is imminent. U-S-A! U-S-A! sort of...
   150. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 01:38 PM (#4338998)
7 million potentially rising to 10 million for Rossi. And, to think, Villareal could have named their price 2 years ago. It's been a tough couple of years for the Yellow Submarine.
   151. ursus arctos Posted: January 04, 2013 at 01:56 PM (#4339023)
They still have to agree personal terms.

But if he gets and stays healthy, it should be a positive move for both player and club. I think that Rossi could learn some stuff from Montella.
   152. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 02:12 PM (#4339035)
   153. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: January 04, 2013 at 02:19 PM (#4339043)
Just to drive Mattbert insane with rage...
Well, perhaps it's a bargain in the sense that he only needs to score 4 goals to have a better ££/Goal number than Torres and just 5 to equal that of Shevchenko.
   154. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 02:27 PM (#4339049)
Well, perhaps it's a bargain in the sense that he only needs to score 4 goals to have a better ££/Goal number than Torres and just 5 to equal that of Shevchenko.

D'oh!

Similarly, a lot of folks on the internet have been deluded into thinking Lewis Holtby is coming to Spurs for free. I'm sure Herr Holtby's agent would disagree with that. I ahve to say that my big fear now that Spurs have Holtby is that Arsenal will get aggressive and go for Isco. Because Isco is pure ####### class. I'm crossing my fingers he ends up at Barca or Real and not on another PL team.
   155. Mattbert Posted: January 04, 2013 at 02:38 PM (#4339064)
You're an agitator, Shooty. An agitator!

Also, I forgot to respond to this: Not sure what this means re: the Moutinho or Sissokho rumors, though. Not much, I think. The way I read the tea leaves, I doubt Huddlestone, Parker, or Livermore have much of a future at Spurs beyond this season. Parker might not actually be sold, whereas I think the other two will be, but he'll be 33 at the start of next season. His contract runs for another two years, but I have to think his involvement will continue to decline.

That would leave Spurs quite light in the middle if Dembele gets banged up again and/or Sandro has any sort of significant injury layoff. Even with Holtby coming in, I'm sure Villas-Boas will want to continue to get younger and more energetic in central midfield - especially if he has designs on fielding a true 4-3-3 at least some of the time in the future.

According to transfermarkt, Sissoko's contract is up at the end of this season. I think I see a pattern emerging here...
   156. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 02:47 PM (#4339076)
According to transfermarkt, Sissoko's contract is up at the end of this season. I think I see a pattern emerging here...

Can't sign Sissokho until he's linked to Liverpool.
   157. I am going to be Frank Posted: January 04, 2013 at 03:11 PM (#4339102)
Chamakh could be Exhibit A to any argument comparing the proficiency of Premier League and Ligue 1 defenses in combating aerial attacks.


Giroud seems to have done ok so far. Chamakh always looked too mechanical. A tall guy playing soccer.

I read somewhere that Spurs were trying to loan Livermore out. It was probably a garbage rumor but every rumor is garbage out there until it happens.

I guess the clause in Rossi's contract regarding United's first option to buy has long gone.
   158. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 03:22 PM (#4339113)
   159. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 03:23 PM (#4339117)
I read somewhere that Spurs were trying to loan Livermore out. It was probably a garbage rumor but every rumor is garbage out there until it happens.

I think he will get loaned out. With Parker back and Tom Carroll the apple of AVB's eye, Livermore isn't going to get to play much. He needs games. QPR, if Harry and Levy are still talking, makes a lot of sense.
   160. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 04, 2013 at 03:24 PM (#4339119)
'Arry specifically mentioned Livermore as a target in one of his recent press conferences. Livermore's still developing (though he seems to be going backward at the moment), and he's currently behind Sandro, Dembele, Parker and Huddlestone on the depth chart, so a loan wouldn't surprise me. I'd prefer to see the loan preceded by the acquisition of a really good creative midfielder, though.
   161. Mattbert Posted: January 04, 2013 at 03:30 PM (#4339125)
What's the link between loaning Livermore and acquiring a creative mid, Mikael?
   162. Mattbert Posted: January 04, 2013 at 03:35 PM (#4339130)
Ol' Bacon Face did not like being trolled by Daniel Levy

I hope Levy sends him a package with one of those "You've Been Had!" cards from Ace Ventura inside.
   163. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 04, 2013 at 03:41 PM (#4339137)
What's the link between loaning Livermore and acquiring a creative mid, Mikael?
Well, it's partly more just that I fear how dependent Spurs are on the injury-prone and in fact still-injured Dembele. Livermore does provide a bit depth for the deeper midfield positions. He still gets minutes late in league games as a holding midfielder. Parker and Thudd aren't exactly models of perfect health, either.
   164. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 04, 2013 at 03:43 PM (#4339139)
Ol' Bacon Face did not like being trolled by Daniel Levy

I hope Levy sends him a package with one of those "You've Been Had!" cards from Ace Ventura inside.
Mostly I just like how it appears Chelsea and United both hate dealing with Levy. But if you step back, it could easily be seen as a good thing - limiting the interest of top clubs in trying to work out transfers for Spurs players should mostly work to the club's advantage.
   165. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 03:53 PM (#4339149)
Mostly I just like how it appears Chelsea and United both hate dealing with Levy. But if you step back, it could easily be seen as a good thing - limiting the interest of top clubs in trying to work out transfers for Spurs players should mostly work to the club's advantage.

We'll see. I think that stuff gets overblown a bit. We were still doing business with West Ham at the peak of the Olympic Stadium nastiness and, if we ever have a player Chelsea or United want again, I don't doubt they'll make their play.
   166. Mattbert Posted: January 04, 2013 at 04:03 PM (#4339163)
Well, it's partly more just that I fear how dependent Spurs are on the injury-prone and in fact still-injured Dembele. Livermore does provide a bit depth for the deeper midfield positions. He still gets minutes late in league games as a holding midfielder. Parker and Thudd aren't exactly models of perfect health, either.

Don't worry, Jermaine Jenas is back!

I smell what you're steppin' in here, although my concerns have been somewhat mitigated by the return of Parker, who was quite durable for Spurs and West Ham before overdoing it at the Euros last summer. Dembele is absolutely the one guy Spurs cannot do without right now, but that's not a problem that can be solved by hanging onto Livermore. Whether he stays or goes has little bearing on how badly screwed Tottenham will be if they lose Dembele again and haven't added another midfielder besides Carroll who can create and run around a bit.

Depth is good, but I guess I feel like it's better for the club if Livermore can go out and get a bunch of games in the Premiership under a guy he played very well for last season. If unfortunate circumstances align such that Livermore would have been desperately needed at Spurs, then they are really up a creek regardless.
   167. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 04:08 PM (#4339168)
I think it's hilarious that the Fryers transfer got hardly a mention yesterday but now that SIR ALEX has complained it's all over the news wire. Soccer journalism is really the worst. I imagine Levy knew what Man U's reaction would be and he feels he's properly covered on this. Hopefully the FA will amend the rules and we'll write it off to poetic justice that the only team that got taken advantage of with this loophole was Man U.
   168. Mattbert Posted: January 04, 2013 at 04:20 PM (#4339180)
I think if manutd.com is saying the Fergie accepts there was nothing done that broke the rules, then Levy is properly covered and then some.

Will it be difficult for the FA to amend the rules given the EU's regulations with respect to "restriction of trade"? I don't really know enough to say. I have provisional sympathy for the next club to be snookered in this way, but this whole thing was easily avoidable from United's perspective. Either quit lowballing your young talent and pay him what he's worth or sell him before the contract expires. Simples.
   169. I am going to be Frank Posted: January 04, 2013 at 04:23 PM (#4339185)
Levy got 30+M pounds for Berbatov. He tries to get the maximum amount and isn't afraid to walk away if he doesn't feel like he got enough - that's the guy I would want negotiating for me. He has been lucky in that he found another club to pay his valuation for Modric when Chelsea were trying to get him for cheap. I guess we'll see how good he is when he gets a player who wants to leave for one club only.

Still don't see why United isn't in on M'vila or Sissokho.

So from what I remember Debuchy was pretty good going forward. I don't remember much about him defensively - other then when Spain beat that weird double right back of Debuchy/Reveilliere in the knockout round. He's also pretty short - Newcastle is a long ways away from the Allardyce days.
   170. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 04, 2013 at 04:30 PM (#4339200)
Mr. German soccer on Holtby:

raphael honigstein ?@honigstein
plenty of question on Holtby to Spurs. some quick thoughts

he's a no10 who can play deeper but isn't quite ready for that yet. ok in wide positions but not really at his best there

his main problem is inconsistency. not always at the level that we saw from him v Arsenal at the Emirates and for German U21 (excellent)

don't see a way for him to play for Germany at the moment. but that doesn't really matter, think of Mata / Spain

here's the important bit, imo. because he's free, it's really a no-brainer. at, say 70k per week, he basically plays for free for 2 years ...as Spurs will always be able to sell him on for 6-7m if he doesn't work out.

the potential is there. but not a world-beater yet

by the way, I factored sign-on fees into the 70k wages, for argument's sake
   171. Mattbert Posted: January 04, 2013 at 04:30 PM (#4339202)
I have to say, I've missed Benny's tweets just as much as I've missed his play.
@AssouEkotto: Today i hv to sleep early. TMW i hv game... Not sure to remember my way to WHL...some one to pick me up tmw??? LoL
   172. Mattbert Posted: January 04, 2013 at 04:34 PM (#4339206)
Still don't see why United isn't in on M'vila or Sissokho.

Indeed. I was amazed they didn't get a good, physical box-to-box type guy in the summer. Wenger seemingly just can't resist the siren song of Abou Diaby.
   173. Mattbert Posted: January 04, 2013 at 04:54 PM (#4339227)
Slow afternoon, so I finally got around to reading that Brian Phillips piece on Grantland. Man, he is really good. Great column.
   174. jmurph Posted: January 04, 2013 at 04:59 PM (#4339233)
Brian Phillips piece on Grantland. Man, he is really good


The series of Football Manager posts he did on Run of Play should have netted him a ####### Pulitzer. That stuff was genius.
   175. Mattbert Posted: January 04, 2013 at 08:07 PM (#4339360)
More transfer news!
@EPLTipsters: BREAKING: David Villa signs for Villa, Antonio Valencia signs for Valencia, Nile Ranger signs for Rangers & Danny Shittu signs for Liverpool.
I heart our Liverpool supporting posters here, but that is funny.
   176. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: January 04, 2013 at 10:47 PM (#4339424)
The series of Football Manager posts he did on Run of Play should have netted him a ####### Pulitzer. That stuff was genius.

I don't know what it says about me that I probably read those about two years ago and I still remembered the name of the team.
   177. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: January 05, 2013 at 01:00 AM (#4339469)
I'm really bummed out. I have a basketball game to coach tomorrow morning (I coach 6th graders) and then we have team pictures at 12:30 so I'm pretty much SOL on the FA Cup action. I know that by all accounts it's lost a lot of luster in recent years but I love the FA Cup. Fortunately I have nothing going on Sunday morning so I'll get to see those games.
   178. puck Posted: January 05, 2013 at 01:49 AM (#4339490)
It's interesting to me that American sports are generally ignored outside of North America (there are of course exceptions) but we've got all the money.


It makes you realize how big our economy is. Lots and lots of people, pretty high average income. When you look at the Deloitte money league, the big clubs would remain on the top even with American clubs around. But US teams will supplant a lot of the top 20, and fill in a very large proportion of the top 100.
   179. puck Posted: January 05, 2013 at 01:52 AM (#4339495)
There are lots of issues with the data, including how you define a team in a sport without roster limits and how one treats bonuses, tax equalization and image rights deals and exchange rates, but those don't detract from the conclusion that clubs at the top of the European leagues spend a lot of money on payroll.

Where do they get the salary data? That info seems a lot less available for pretty much all teams besides the US ones (mainly due to players unions).
   180. puck Posted: January 05, 2013 at 03:37 AM (#4339511)
The Coppa Italia and Copa del Rey have weird schedules. The Italian cup semifinals will have legs in consecutive weeks and will be done by January 30, but the final isn't until May 26. The Spanish semifinal legs will be a month apart, in the end of January and the end of February, but then they don't play their final until May 18.

It's odd to have such long gaps in time between the finals and the other knockout rounds.
   181. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: January 05, 2013 at 04:08 AM (#4339513)
It makes you realize how big our economy is. Lots and lots of people, pretty high average income. When you look at the Deloitte money league, the big clubs would remain on the top even with American clubs around. But US teams will supplant a lot of the top 20, and fill in a very large proportion of the top 100.

It's more of a function of major US sports having a de facto monopoly on the sport, so the revenue gets split among about 30 teams. Whereas there are hundreds of top flight teams, and many significant second and third flight teams making money in football.

Using Deloitte's money league figures from 2010/11, they estimate the top 20 teams make about a quarter of all European football revnue, with €4.4bn. So football in Europe makes about about €18bn, almost $24bn, or more than MLB, NFL, NBA and NHL combined.

And that's just club level. Throw in the money generated from international competitions, and it's simply no contest.
   182. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 05, 2013 at 09:06 AM (#4339537)
Ooh, great goal for Brighton. One touch cross on a ball that looked sure to go out, finished with an outside-of-the-foot volley hooked around the keeper into the bottom corner. Worth checking out on replay.
   183. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 05, 2013 at 09:06 AM (#4339538)
A fantastic goal by Brighton to open the scoring against Newcastle. I had no idea Wayne Bridge was at Brighton now.
   184. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 05, 2013 at 09:14 AM (#4339540)
Not a particularly wonderful game - Newcastle's youth team are kind of a mess - but a great goal, and worth checking out just for Gael Bigirimana's hair, which I would attempt to describe as "Sammy Davis Jr in space".
   185. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 05, 2013 at 10:33 AM (#4339560)
4th year in a row Newcastle have gone out to a club in a division lower than them.

Spurs playing a strong team with Bale included but I'll have to settle for radio coverage.
   186. Swedish Chef Posted: January 05, 2013 at 10:49 AM (#4339565)
So football in Europe makes about about €18bn, almost $24bn, or more than MLB, NFL, NBA and NHL combined.

And that revenue is nowhere near enough to cover their spending. Profit, they've heard of it.
   187. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 05, 2013 at 11:05 AM (#4339571)
Crawley Town already up on Reading.
   188. I am going to be Frank Posted: January 05, 2013 at 11:06 AM (#4339572)
Ba starting for Chelsea but Chelsea probably playing close to their strongest team. Of course you could argue that Ba has been better than Torres for a couple years now. Southampton sitting a fair amount of their first team.
   189. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 05, 2013 at 11:13 AM (#4339574)
Crawley scored in the 14th second. NOT the fastest FA Cup goal of all time.
   190. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 05, 2013 at 11:19 AM (#4339575)
Bolton up on Sunderland and Tottenham have an early lead on Crawley, Dempsey with the goal.
   191. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 05, 2013 at 11:24 AM (#4339580)
Soton take the lead on Chelsea!
   192. I am going to be Frank Posted: January 05, 2013 at 11:24 AM (#4339581)
Southampton goes up! Does Rafa get canned if Chelsea lose?
   193. Richard Posted: January 05, 2013 at 11:24 AM (#4339582)
Tidy goal from Rodriguez for Soton.
   194. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 05, 2013 at 11:32 AM (#4339584)
Boro up on 7th division Hastings, but only by a goal! Miracles can still happen.
   195. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 05, 2013 at 11:35 AM (#4339587)
Ipswich up on Villa now. Bale doubles Spurs' lead on Coventry.
   196. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 05, 2013 at 11:37 AM (#4339588)
Demba Ba taps in to equalize. Boo!
   197. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 05, 2013 at 11:39 AM (#4339591)
Dempsey with a brace. Spurs running riot, as you'd expect.
   198. Mattbert Posted: January 05, 2013 at 11:39 AM (#4339592)
Where are you getting a radio feed, Shooty?

That was a special goal from Orlandi in the Brighton-Newcastle game. Special celebration from Gus as well.
   199. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 05, 2013 at 11:42 AM (#4339594)
Where are you getting a radio feed, Shooty?

No radio. Reading a play by play.
   200. Mattbert Posted: January 05, 2013 at 11:45 AM (#4339596)
Whoa, a Gary McSheffrey sighting! Well, not really. I guess it's a Gary McSheffrey reading. But still...
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