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Friday, October 20, 2017

OT: Winter Soccer Thread

November 4 Borussia Dortmund v. Bayern Munich
November 5 Chelsea v. ManU
November 9 & 12 - Northern Ireland v. Switzerland/Croatia v. Greece
November 10 &  13 - Sweden v. Italy
November 11 & 14 - Denmark v. Ireland
November 10 & 15 - Honduras v. Australia
November 11 & 15 - New Zealand v. Peru
November 14 - Portugal v. USA (friendly #&!^#&)
December 1 - Napoli v. Juventus
December 10 - ManU v. ManCity
December 11 - Champions League Round of 16 draw
December 20 - Real Madrid v. Barcelona (how contentious will this be given the political climate?)

Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: October 20, 2017 at 05:27 PM | 2146 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: off topic, soccer

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   2101. I am going to be Frank Posted: May 26, 2018 at 04:31 PM (#5680073)
How did this team with that keeper and lovren make it to the finals. Salah is the greatest player ever.
   2102. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: May 26, 2018 at 04:31 PM (#5680074)
I was coaching little league today but when I drove home and they said Salah left after a tangle with Ramos my first thought was “intentional” and reading the comments above make me feel like my cynicism was warranted.
   2103. vortex of dissipation Posted: May 26, 2018 at 04:31 PM (#5680075)
EPL fans would welcome him back right?

Bale? When he was in the league, he was my favorite player to watch, from a neutral perspective. He probably still would be if he came back.
   2104. KronicFatigue Posted: May 26, 2018 at 04:32 PM (#5680076)
Real is a good team, but the combination of luck, dirty play, and gifts from the refs have made their run this tournament very distasteful
   2105. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 26, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5680077)
Pay 150m to AC Milan and guarantee their debts for Donnaruma. Sell Mignolet and Karius for spare change.
   2106. I am going to be Frank Posted: May 26, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5680078)
United supposedly has tried a couple times but he doesn’t want to come back. He doesn’t seem a city type of player and Chelsea is at the whims of oil prices, Putin and sanctions.
   2107. J. Sosa Posted: May 26, 2018 at 04:33 PM (#5680079)
That shot keeper has to be like a third baseman. In excusable. And isn’t even his worst error of the night. Oh well. That really really sucked.
   2108. vortex of dissipation Posted: May 26, 2018 at 04:34 PM (#5680080)
Is Dave Dexter Jr. producing the audio?
   2109. strong silence Posted: May 26, 2018 at 04:35 PM (#5680081)
If I'm RM I'd sell CR while the price is still high. PSG might fall for it.

If I'm Liverpool, I'd sell Firmino or Henderson to get a better GK.
   2110. J. Sosa Posted: May 26, 2018 at 04:36 PM (#5680082)
After Salah went off it was always going to be difficult. But Karius wow. I don’t remember a recent worse performance in a final.

I love Sadio. My favorite player. He was so pissed went after Ramos every chance he got, scored, worked extremely hard.
   2111. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: May 26, 2018 at 04:37 PM (#5680083)
That Bale goal was something else.
   2112. The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott) Posted: May 26, 2018 at 04:37 PM (#5680084)
I'd sell Henderson before Firmino. But I don't care what they sell to upgrade keeper.
   2113. I am going to be Frank Posted: May 26, 2018 at 04:41 PM (#5680085)
They must still have some courtinho money, right? They shouldnt have to sell anyone they don’t want to.
   2114. KronicFatigue Posted: May 26, 2018 at 04:43 PM (#5680087)
[quoteIf I'm RM I'd sell CR while the price is still high. PSG might fall for it.

Even if that's the right move, they can't and shouldn't do it. The cost of doing business with a generational talent is being forced to hang onto him at least a year longer than you should. Sometimes you have to cater to the fans to keep the peace
   2115. I am going to be Frank Posted: May 26, 2018 at 04:44 PM (#5680088)
If Madrid gets neymar they kind of have to sell Ronaldo, don’t they?
   2116. strong silence Posted: May 26, 2018 at 04:45 PM (#5680089)
Fun year in international football. Klopp prodcing great* teams. I wish that Barcelona went undefeated. Messi and Guardola still producing magic. Mourinho mostly silent. Exciting seasons in Italy. Neymar fun to watch.

Now it's time to see if the Sounders can turn it around. Any Portland or Seattle fans here? Any BBTF soccer meet ups scheduled for this summer?

* Great to watch. Not yet great on the pitch.
   2117. vortex of dissipation Posted: May 26, 2018 at 05:22 PM (#5680096)
Any Portland or Seattle fans here?

Yes, Sounders fan.
   2118. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: May 26, 2018 at 05:25 PM (#5680098)
The Real Madrid Champions League Pixie Dust (tm) cannot be contained!

And, as everyone already pointed out (and as was already known), Ramos is a complete ####.
   2119. vortex of dissipation Posted: May 26, 2018 at 05:50 PM (#5680109)
The shoulder injury Mohamed Salah sustained during Liverpool’s Champions League final defeat to Real Madrid on Saturday evening is ‘serious’, Jürgen Klopp confirmed.

The forward was forced from the field after 30 minutes having failed to recover from an earlier challenge with Sergio Ramos and later went to a local hospital in Kiev for assessment.
Klopp told his post-match press conference: “It’s a serious injury, a really serious injury.

“He is in the hospital for an X-ray. It’s either the collarbone or the shoulder itself. It doesn’t look good, that’s it.”
   2120. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: May 26, 2018 at 06:54 PM (#5680129)
All set up to make sure a crappy Russia team still gets through their group.
   2121. spivey Posted: May 26, 2018 at 07:11 PM (#5680134)
Firmino is the second best player on Liverpool they shouldn’t need to sell him. He’s also kind of underrated I feel.

They do need to drop a good chunk on a goalie but that should be doable. Navas May be available cheap if Real make a splash in that area.
   2122. spivey Posted: May 26, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5680136)
The Ramos thing is a shame mostly because he’s going to get off without punishment.
   2123. I am going to be Frank Posted: May 26, 2018 at 07:19 PM (#5680139)
Navas isn’t that good either.

I feel that mane or van dijk may be better than firmino
   2124. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: May 26, 2018 at 07:20 PM (#5680141)
[edit] wrong thread
   2125. spivey Posted: May 26, 2018 at 07:27 PM (#5680142)
Navas isn’t that good either.

He's not De Gea, but whenever I've watched him he seems to generally make all of the routine saves, occasionally make some good ones (his save in the first half on TAA was pretty damn good given he didn't even give up a rebound), and hasn't made too many huge #### ups in the games I've seen. He may not win you games but generally from what I've seen he won't cost you them either. That's limited to seeing him in just a dozen or so games over the last couple of years though.
   2126. J. Sosa Posted: May 26, 2018 at 07:31 PM (#5680146)
Firmino had a bad game by his standards, but he is a key player and needs to be kept. Robertson was great. Lovren, to his everlasting credit, was up for it and played great. The whole back four played amazing in fact. Mane played great. The lack of quality in midfield really showed this game though, that is the next step. Keita and Fekir coming in, it isn’t like it is a secret that the midfield needed work. They need at least one more midfielder at that level, a keeper, and a quality winger for depth.

At full strength with the starting matchups I felt like it was a coin flip. Not to be. Still, I am very happy with the season. It was an overachievement and help is coming.
   2127. spivey Posted: May 26, 2018 at 07:36 PM (#5680152)
It's sad that as a Tottenham fan I'd be delighted with Henderson and Can being in the midfield rotation. They really, really need to nail down the midfield to keep up with Liverpool and City.
   2128. KronicFatigue Posted: May 26, 2018 at 08:45 PM (#5680178)
Neymar going to real would ruin his legacy. He'll never get out of Messi's shadow. His move to PSG will be retroactively considered cowardly, then subsequently a failure. Then, tail between his legs, he comes back to Spain and even if he's better than Ronaldo at this point, it will feel like he's second fiddle.

I don't know what percentage of a player's income his wages are, but I doubt the increase from PSG to real could make up the losses in marketability by the decrease in status.
   2129. The Marksist Posted: May 27, 2018 at 07:29 PM (#5680431)
Don't see Liverpool selling anyone significant this summer, and definitely, definitely not Firmino. Not a chance. Could maaaaaaaybe see Hendo going, but only if they get in enough quality that he'd only be a bench option at best. And even then, probably not. Some minor pieces will go as always, but no one who played a big role this past season.

My guess is they have ~120-150 million to spend. Knock it down to 100 after Keita and it's tough to see how they can get a keeper, a 6, a center back, and attacking depth (all of which are needed). But I'm just some yahoo on the internet, so what do I know.
   2130. J. Sosa Posted: May 27, 2018 at 10:13 PM (#5680503)
Net spend warriors on LFC forums have been arguing since last summer about Keita and VVD. Was the plan originally to bring them both in last summer and the money was there? Or did the Coutinho purchase fund them.

I am no accountant, but from reading various financial posts my best guess is that the Keita money was already there. 75 million for VVD was not. It was the price paid for screwing up negotiations. How much of it was Coutinho money is hard to say. Given that top priced centerbacks were going for around 50, I would say roughly 25 was Coutinho at least.

All of that is very simplistic of course. But Klopp has mostly kept the powder dry in the transfer market. I don’t think they will bring in a CB, keeper has taken priority. They missed on Laporte, Akanji, Gimenez, De Vrij and Lenglet. There was some talk of moving on to Lascelles or Tarkowski but I don’t think the money is there for that and a keeper. They got beat out for Jorghino but I do think they will bring in a 6. So, super early prediction:

Keita, Fekir, keeper, winger, and a 6. Probably budget option on at least one of those though. They are swimming in money by Liverpool standards given the new stand, CL, and Coutinho. We will see. Klopp is stubborn, if he doesn’t get his guy he just moves on. All the reliable journos are saying it is Alisson or bust for keeper.

Edit to add: Some of it obviously will come down to whether they can move Sturridge’s wages, etc.
   2131. Rennie's Tenet Posted: May 28, 2018 at 08:36 AM (#5680636)
If I'm reading Wikipedia correctly, it seems that June 26-29 the champions of Gibraltar, San Marino, Andorra, and Kosovo will be involved in a Champions League play-in at Gibraltar. It seems like that could be interesting if they do it right. Is it something that passes unnoticed, or do they have some fun with it?
   2132. J. Sosa Posted: May 28, 2018 at 03:34 PM (#5680738)
Fabinho is the 6. That’ll do pig.
   2133. manchestermets Posted: May 28, 2018 at 05:31 PM (#5680804)
I've got an offside question that I'm having a mental lapse on. Offense is A B and C. C crosses to A who now has the ball with only the keeper to beat. B drifts in past all the defenders as well. A takes a shot that keeper blocks and B taps in for goal. What factors can make B offsides?

Does B need to be behind A when A shoots? Or is B off sides regardless as soon as the keeper blocks ball because the off side resets and there isn't a second defender?

Assuming everyone's in front of all the defenders other than the keeper, B will be offside if he is in front of the ball when A shoots.

The ball does not need to be played forwards for someone to be offside. Possible example: A has the ball on the wing, B is in front of the ball in an offside position. A plays a cross that goes backwards, but rebounds off a defender to B; B puts the ball in the goal. That goal would be disallowed as B was offside when the cross was played, and no other member of his team has touched the ball so the play has not entered a new phase for offside purposes.
   2134. manchestermets Posted: May 28, 2018 at 05:37 PM (#5680807)
I don't know what percentage of a player's income his wages are, but I doubt the increase from PSG to real could make up the losses in marketability by the decrease in status.

You don't decrease your marketability by moving from PSG to Real. You just don't, even if you're going from top dog at PSG to not top dog at Real.

Also, there's no sense in which this is the correct time for Real to sell Ronaldo. He's just scored 44 goals in 44 games. He may not have scored 50 for a couple of years, but still.
   2135. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: May 28, 2018 at 09:57 PM (#5680931)
Better to sell a year too early rather than a year too late. I’m not sure that’s necessarily true for a club with the resources Real has but Ronaldo is clearly a lesser player than he was. He’s still exceptional of course but I won’t be surprised if he has a 25 game season in the next year or two. As it is even with Real going deep into the CL his games played have declined the last four seasons.

Of course soccer is vastly different from baseball. A baseball team wouldn’t be able to carry a Neymar and a Ronaldo, Real could have both and simply adapt on the fly if Ronaldo gets hurt.
   2136. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: May 28, 2018 at 10:18 PM (#5680960)
But who has the a) need, space, or inclination, can afford the b) transfer fee, the c) wage fee, is d) someone Real would sell to and e) has a manager or team Ronaldo wants to play for?

I don't think Marcotti's much off here:

How to read this? If he really is plotting a departure, he's done a great job of keeping it under wraps. And frankly, given the money involved (Ronaldo's deal runs through 2021, with wages of around $50 million a year), there are very few landing spots that don't involve some kind of lifestyle choice and a massive pay cut. It's really difficult to see him at another big European club mainly because most of the ones who could, theoretically, afford him would not provide a great fit.

A return to Manchester United might be a romantic solution but it would also reunite him with Jose Mourinho, and the two have often failed to see eye-to-eye. Paris Saint-Germain could have serious Financial Fair Play restrictions real soon and, in any case, they have a decent front three already.

Could there be some mega-move to China or Major League Soccer in the works? Again, theoretically MLS could construct some sort of complicated David Beckham-type deal where he ends up getting a future franchise, a share of league revenues and the keys to Don Garber's Volvo, but it feels pie-in-the-sky. As for China, there are now pretty stiff limits on foreign signings and on capital flight in general.

Most of all, it's hard to see Ronaldo want to leave the big stage after the sort of season he's had. The impression is that it's more about his contract, particularly after the mega-deals signed by Neymar and Lionel Messi, both of which dwarf his salary. Not because he's greedy but because, like most, he wants to be paid at market rate. And, unlike most of us, he has the leverage to do it.
   2137. AuntBea calls himself Sky Panther Posted: May 28, 2018 at 10:21 PM (#5680963)
What's Ronaldo's leverage? Sulk and get the fans behind him?
   2138. Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB) Posted: May 28, 2018 at 10:23 PM (#5680964)
Anyways, fun game from the baby Yanks tonight.

Bolivia are #### warmed over a cold fire, but at least this version of the USMNT team spent most of the time passing forward with intent and didn't look old, tired and bereft of attacking thought or nous ...
   2139. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: May 29, 2018 at 08:51 AM (#5681163)
Ronaldo has made these noises every summer for several years now. There's nothing in it. He makes a LOT less than Messi or Neymar and this is his way of trying to leverage better terms from Real. I won't believe he's going anywhere until he's holding up a new shirt.

On the CL final, my few unneeded, random observations: Ramos knew what he was doing. This is why I laugh when people say Lamela is dirty. Lamela wishes he could be the prick Ramos is. I don't even know what to say about that Benzema goal. I have never seen anything like it. I guess it was like that Leon Lett play in the NFL many years back but if he had done that in the Super Bowl. That was sub-Bill Buckner level of clutch. And I just want to thank Gareth Bale for putting Spurs into Pot 2. It's clear he still loves us! Heart-shaped finger thingy right back at ya, big fella! (Overall I think Liverpool were better before the Salah injury so watching Ramos lifting the cup was infuriating. Seriously, what a prick. I know Real have won 4 of the last 5 of these but I'm still kind of underwhelmed by them. They just don't feel like an historically great team. I also want to note that Spurs played Liverpool and Real Madrid 4 times this year and were undefeated. #RealChampsOfEurope! This is the internet so I just want to clarify that I'm joking.)
   2140. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:05 AM (#5681165)
I know Real have won 4 of the last 5 of these but I'm still kind of underwhelmed by them. They just don't feel like an historically great team.

I don't think you're wrong here. FWIW Raphael Honigstein made the same point this weekend. For all the CL success their domestic success is underwhelming. Just for a comparison the Barca teams that won in '09 and '11 also won 3 straight domestic league titles, one Copa del Rey and lost in the final of another. Real don't have anywhere near that kind of success to matchup. They've basically decided it's Champions League or nothing. That's fine if they want to do that but I reserve the right to be a bit underwhelmed by the achievement.
   2141. spivey Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:24 AM (#5681178)
I agree this isn't a historically great team (Real). It's a historically great accomplishment, and just in terms of player for player they're as talented as any team in the world. But they can be lackadaisical at times. I think everyone acknowledges winning La Liga and probably even EPL now is harder than winning the Champion's League. They're also not dominating in the CL - they were pretty thoroughly outplayed by Bayern, for instance. Don't get me wrong, they're still one of the 4 best teams in the world.

I also agree that Ronaldo is mainly just posturing. He's a real legend in the club - I think the blowback of them getting rid of him would be massive and cost the top people their jobs, probably. Now over the next couple of years they will need to turn from a Ronaldo-based offense to a more balanced attack as other guys they either sign or have develop. I think his current contract probably runs through that period pretty well (next couple of years he should still be able to be a focus, then the 2021 year maybe less so, then move on). I'd be hesitant to extend him.
   2142. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:33 AM (#5681181)
I don't think you're wrong here. FWIW Raphael Honigstein made the same point this weekend.

Jonathan Wilson and Michael Cox did, as well, so at least I'm in good company.
   2143. J. Sosa Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:56 AM (#5681197)
When Salah got hurt it just made me sick. I thought Liverpool was generally getting the better of it at that point.

And for the pundits trying to say it was part of the game or whatever, I felt like I was taking crazy pills. Do these idiots actually watch the sport? Ramos did the exact same ####### thing last year in the CL final and got a yellow for it. It is a dangerous, cynical play and should have drawn a card.

As for Karius... When I saw that play I was stunned. Even Buckner or Grady didn’t do that to me. Buckner I was just sad. Grady I was in a towering rage. Karius, I was stunned. I just kind of sat there. My wife said “oh no” looked at my face, and then held my hand. It is just sports, I am a well adjusted person with proper priorities, but I don’t think I have ever seen that at any level on a throw. Very rarely on a kick, but a throw?

Some Liverpool fans have tried to say he was still concussed from Ramos elbowing him in the head, but... That doesn’t explain the second error. It was very similar to the Kolarov error he got away with in the semi. I had seen posts prior to the final from good coaches suggesting that this has been an issue for Karius ever since the broken hand injury. Whether mental or physical, it was a known issue. If that is true, I don’t see how he can function as top choice. Karius did make two very nice plays in the final, and he has talent, but if the hand thing is true he is done even setting aside whether it is tenable to go forward with him otherwise.
   2144. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: May 29, 2018 at 09:59 AM (#5681199)
   2145. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: May 29, 2018 at 10:09 AM (#5681206)
I don't think Karius will ever be a #1 for a top team again. He's basically on the Rob Green career path now.
   2146. spivey Posted: May 29, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5681325)
Karius' bad game could be overlooked if it was just one game. And the Benzema thing is awful and absurd, but he'll probably learn from that and never do it again.

The bigger problem for me is the 3rd goal he allowed was just like the Kolarov one that was noted earlier. He proved over the full year he wasn't a top keeper.
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