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Monday, October 27, 2014

OT: Wrestling Thread November 2014

Given that the old wrestling thread got shut down, here is a new one that shamelessly links to my Hell in a Cell review!

aberg Posted: October 27, 2014 at 01:47 PM | 2086 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: wrestling

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   1701. Conor Posted: September 15, 2016 at 03:48 PM (#5301002)
He was trying to say something like "that will do more damage than leaked emails did to Hilary Clinton!" but got cut off by a move in the middle. I like him. He has more schtick than most wrestling announcers, and I can see how that would not appeal to some.


Thanks, I couldn't remember the exact reference. I think Ranallo is good overall; he just seemed a little much to me last night. I think he's the best guy in the company.

I think Batista is part Filipino and they did send him on some tours there, but they certainly didn't market him as such. I was really impressed by Perkins last night.
   1702. DJS, the Digital Dandy Posted: September 15, 2016 at 04:48 PM (#5301059)
Probably should've put a link to this:

MLB/WWE Megamix.

(I've done McCann, Pierzynski, Altuve, Kevin Goldstein, Showalter, King Felix, and strangely enough, Cam Newton since)

   1703. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: September 18, 2016 at 05:22 PM (#5302398)
I did notice the Ambrose booing, though I wondered if it was more of "we want AJ" and less of "we no longer want Dean".


I concur with that the booing of Dean is more of the "we want AJ" variety

It's good to see the Miz doing so well as a heel, though Ziggler is kinda dead in the water after losing out on both titles, that wasn't the best booking
   1704. Random Transaction Generator Posted: October 05, 2016 at 12:09 PM (#5314464)
   1705. Chokeland Bill Posted: October 10, 2016 at 03:21 PM (#5319900)
The Miz has had the best match of the night on at least two PPVs this year. The Miz.
   1706. Man o' Schwar Posted: October 10, 2016 at 04:06 PM (#5319934)
He's doing easily the best work of his career. This whole program with Byran and Ziggler has taken him to another level. I used to cringe for Miz matches, or use them for bathroom and sandwich breaks. Last night, that match told the story beautifully. I was convinced Ziggler was losing, then that he was winning (after he got out of the spray in the face spot), then losing again, then winning again. I had no idea when or what the outcome would be. The turnbuckle taken off could have gone either way. The boot coming off could have gone either way.

On a card with a tremendous triple-threat match (and not much else to offer), it was the match of the night. I only question why they didn't put it on last, because this was a great go home moment for the crowd and Ziggler celebrating with Miz moping in the ring would have been a memorable way to close the PPV.
   1707. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: October 26, 2016 at 10:41 AM (#5334623)
This thread has been real quiet lately
Raw
Good-Owens/Rollins/Jericho, JerichKO, you you just made the list!
Sasha/Charlotte--Foley really sold the Hell in the Cell

Okay-New Day/Sheamus/Cesaro, the Cesaro/Sheamus partnership helps this

Bad-I didn't watch the CWC so maybe this is part of the reason but TJ Perkins seems like a weak champ & his angle with Kendrick is poor
Reigns/Rusev-I'm not big on Roman so maybe this more on me
Guns & Gallows-I love these guys but I feel like they're being buried
The Dab-to TJ Perkins, Enzo, & Usos (when they were face) please retire this 2015 celebration. Cam Newton retired it- now please be a follower like you were in 2015 & just stop haha
   1708. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: October 26, 2016 at 10:47 AM (#5334634)
Smackdown
Good-AJ/Ambrose/James Ellsworth
Miz/Ziggler-Miz is doing great heel work
Rhino/Slater-they are kinda weak Champs but a good pairing

Okay-Lynch/Bliss but having Alexa lose to Naomi wasn't good
Orton/Wyatt-this angle kinda killed Orton's good heat of being a trash talker against Brock

Bad
Jack Swagger haha

   1709. aberg Posted: October 26, 2016 at 06:12 PM (#5335000)
Can't really argue with any of Tubbs's classifications. I think Smackdown is doing a better job of getting guys over (Styles, Ambrose, Ziggler, Miz all hot, but Slater? Hype Bros? Ellsworth???) Nothing new, but Raw is just too damn long. On weeks when I am patient enough to wait until the next day and watch them both on Hulu, they're both ~80-90 minute shows, and they're almost indistinguishable in terms of quality. Raw filling the extra hour is always spotty and veers into goofiness instead of good wrestling. Unfortunately, CWs have fallen into that bucket so far.

Oddly, Talking Smack is great. If only there was a way for Raw to separate the CWs and have a Talking Raw style show both embedded in a 3 hour broadcast. That might allow for Raw itself to be 2 hours (depending on how you block it out), which would generally be much, much better.
   1710. Chokeland Bill Posted: October 26, 2016 at 06:55 PM (#5335015)
Talking Smack is the best show WWE has. It seems very unscripted, and that allows the personalities to come out a little bit more than what the Raw roster gets stuck with. It's really no surprise that the hottest act on Raw is Jericho, who mostly gets to do his own thing.

Rumor is that they are going to add a post-Raw show. It would really depend on the hosts, as Renee and Bryan are fantastic. Post-retirement Bryan has been moving from one aspect of the business to the next and is seemingly a prodigy at all of it.

One notable content difference between the shows is the booking of the women. Raw is focusing almost exclusively on 2 women, with 2 more getting some work. Part of it is injuries, but Nia, Alicia, and Emma are all doing nothing right now. Smackdown is giving everyone a focus. Usually I would be happier with Smackdown's way, but it's hard to argue that Sasha and Charlotte haven't gotten significantly more popular than anyone on Smackdown. Becky's illness/injury explains some of that, but I think everyone else trading wins has put a ceiling on where they go. I don't see any possibility of the Smackdown women main eventing a PPV anytime soon while we might be seeing it from Raw on Sunday.

Tag team divisions on both shows are a wreck. Main event scenes are both focusing on comedy right now, which is strange. AJ/Ambrose is more compelling than Owens/Rollins. Rollins just isn't working as a babyface, and Owens is too entertaining to be a true heel.
   1711. aberg Posted: October 26, 2016 at 08:32 PM (#5335178)
Rumor is that they are going to add a post-Raw show. It would really depend on the hosts, as Renee and Bryan are fantastic. Post-retirement Bryan has been moving from one aspect of the business to the next and is seemingly a prodigy at all of it.



That reminds me of Batista in a weird way. He was a terrible actor/talker in wrestling and has somehow become one of the more popular actors of all the wrestlers who have made that transition.

Rollins just isn't working as a babyface, and Owens is too entertaining to be a true heel.


Hard to really tell if Rollins is working as a face because he hasn't done anything remotely face-like. Maybe that will be changed when HHH comes back. The sooner the better, because he's caught in neutral.
   1712. RJ in TO Posted: October 26, 2016 at 09:22 PM (#5335320)
That reminds me of Batista in a weird way. He was a terrible actor/talker in wrestling and has somehow become one of the more popular actors of all the wrestlers who have made that transition.


Don't most of his roles involve him talking as little as possible?
   1713. vagab0nd kills for candy Posted: November 04, 2016 at 06:00 PM (#5346225)
anyone else excited to see what paul london can do in LU?
   1714. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: November 04, 2016 at 07:57 PM (#5346272)
I was surprised to see no reaction to HiaC here. I'd love to hear everyone's thoughts on all 3 cell matches.
   1715. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: November 04, 2016 at 11:40 PM (#5346353)
HIAC matches:
Reigns/Rusev--I always watch the PPVs at my friend's house & sadly Reigns' matches have become the time where we all talk and hang out & pay little attention

Owens/Rollins--good but not overly memorable. JerichKO has revived Jericho's career

Sasha/Charlotte--I loved that they had this match last. I am a much bigger fan of sasha than charlotte but I absolutely love that they went the unpredictable route & had her lose in her hometown. I think Charlotte had a much bigger chance of not coming out of this match injured so maybe she was the safe bet to come out as champ. The start was cheesy with Sasha being "injured " & the very very end was a little anticlimactic with Charlotte pinning her with natural selection but overall this was a really good match

Other notes
Ziggler as IC champ is zzz so far, no different then at the end of 2014 but I'm happy to see the Miz have the Bryan heat still on him
   1716. Man o' Schwar Posted: November 05, 2016 at 04:29 PM (#5346542)
Reigns/Rusev - the problem is (as always) you know Reigns is winning, so there's no tension in the match. Rusev beat him and beat him and locked in the submission hold, with a chain, on the steps. Then Reigns shook him off, spear, pin. It's ridiculous. I assume in the next match, it will be Rusev with the submission, on a moving flatbed truck, with a sawblade cutting into Roman's mouth, while he's been set on fire and piranha are eating his legs. And he'll still shake it off and get the pin.

And they've got to get that vest off of him. Rusev battering his chest with that kendo stick and watching it bounce off harmlessly each time was hilarious. I remember when a vest like this was a heel move (D'Lo Brown), and the commentators complained how it gave him an unfair advantage. How can he be the underdog who overcomes the odds (which is ridiculous in and of itself, but that's what they keep pushing) if he's essentially arming himself for every match?

Rollins/Owens - started slow, got better. I guess Jericho in the cage keeps the program going, but it might have been nice to see Owens get a clean win here. And I agree with Tubbs - Jericho really seems to be having more fun now than he has in years, and it's translating into performance. The way Jericho is going, I'd love to see something like Owens holding the title until an Elimination Chamber match, when Jericho eliminates him by surprise and gets a short run with the belt until WM. He's been one of the best things in the WWE in 2016.

Sasha/Charlotte - would have been a better match if they hadn't spent the better part of a month shoving down our throats how important it was, how historic it was, that two women got to do this. Honestly, it felt like the Ghostbusters movie from this year, where they just kept trying to sell it and sell it as this groundbreaking thing just because it featured women instead of men. The match itself was decent, though the whole Sasha on a stretcher thing in the beginning was silly. They certainly went all out once they were in the cage, but if they're going to use women and tables together they have to figure out a way to rig the tables so that they'll break when a 120 pound woman hits them (as opposed to a 250 pound man). I assume the end of the match was supposed to be Sasha going through that table in the corner, as opposed to landing on it and rolling off. I think Natural Selection was just an audible.

Overall it was fine for a $9.99 PPV. But I've grown tired of the New Day, they're not doing anything with the cruiserweights, and having Gallows/Anderson win now is pointless since they've been so thoroughly buried since they showed up. Aside from Jericho and Owens, and Cesaro and Sheamus (depending on where they go with that), I have little interest in following RAW at this point.
   1717. Man o' Schwar Posted: November 05, 2016 at 04:32 PM (#5346545)
One other complaint - Hell in a Cell used to be the thing that they had to break out when a feud had reached the point of no return. Guys couldn't stop beating on each other, couldn't stop interfering, there was no other way to ensure that they fought it out one-on-one until there was a final winner.

Now it feels like just another gimmick match.
   1718. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: November 05, 2016 at 07:15 PM (#5346597)
My thoughts:

1. Reigns-Rusev: I agree that knowing Reigns is going to go over robs this match of drama, especially when it's booked for Reigns to basically take a beating the entire time. Would have been nice to see them go the "pass out from the pain of the accolade plus chain" move, but I guess that wouldn't make Roman look strong enough. The jacket has got to ####### go though.

2. Owens-Rollins: I love JericKO and The List, but I felt that Jericho's interference in this match took something away from it. I don't want Owens' heel champion run to end up like Rollins' where he's a weak champ who can only win with assistance of others. Let him win by cheating/doing underhanded things on his own at least. If Jericho has to interfere here maybe make the interference portion of the match shorter because it felt like Jericho was in there half the match and it killed the momentum and just made everything from there on out inevitable. I was recently talking to some of my friends about how when Jericho came back for this run I felt sad for him and wanted him gone and now he's arguably my favorite person on the roster.

3. Sasha-Charlotte: Focusing on the "historic" nature of the match and not on the rivalry did a disservice to both women. The two table botches were bad, but this was a match that in the moment I thought was a bit disappointing but upon further review I really liked. First, while Hell in a Cells do generally feel like just another gimmick match since it's just an annual PPV that needs to be stocked...this was the only match of the 3 where it felt like the competitors actually hated each other. While the stretcher spot at the start went on too long, I loved Charlotte starting with a quick cheap shot and the wild brawling and the announce table powerbomb. I also really enjoyed the variations of the double knees that Sasha incorporated, the one off the cell wall being particularly delightful. This match also told the best story. While the Natural Selection ending felt a bit abrupt, I enjoyed the idea of Sasha overextending her body to the point that it finally gave out on her on the powerbomb through the table attempt. Basically, this was a couple table botches away from a great match.
   1719. aberg Posted: November 08, 2016 at 12:45 PM (#5348305)
There were some little things I liked on Raw last night. Namely?

-I like that they're teasing Shield alignment without giving it to us. The Rollins turn felt rushed and incomplete, so at least they're not over-correcting by trying to shotgun that long-term pop.

-Strowman has been brought along at the appropriate pace. WWE strings out or rushes the push for monsters so often that they deserve credit for getting this one right. His presence in that main event was so opposite the dumb inclusion of Harper and Rowan in the Survivor Series teams two years ago.

-Zayn vs. Ziggler has the potential to be a truly great match. I don't love Rusev looking weak on three shows in a row, but putting one great singles match in the midst of a spectacle PPV is needed and appreciated.

-The Glasgow crowd was really fun. Any idea why Bayley was over like the Von Erichs at the Sportatorium?
   1720. Man o' Schwar Posted: November 08, 2016 at 03:07 PM (#5348517)
I agree that the Strowman thing has been great, but in the back of my mind I can't shake the idea that, 6-9 months from now, we're going to watch him lose to Roman Reigns at 3 straight PPVs in increasingly ludicrous ways, followed by Strowman back in the midcard feuding with Titus O'Neal.

The Bayley thing was outstanding. It's fun to watch a crowd really be vocal, so long as they're not just being vocal about themselves. I guess the WWE doesn't get over that way very often, and so when they do they're going to get an enthusiastic welcome.

As much as I hate to admit it, I'm looking forward to the 20-man Survivor Series tag team match. It has the potential to be a huge fun mess.
   1721. Random Transaction Generator Posted: November 21, 2016 at 12:09 PM (#5356117)
So...that's gotta be the last time Shane ever does a high risk wrestling move, right?

He was definitely concussed after his head hit the mat. The ref rightly saw that his eyes were completely unfocused and called in the medical crew.

Also, props to Orton for going over to (what I assume was) Shane's family and giving them a quick chat.
   1722. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: November 23, 2016 at 06:02 PM (#5357601)
I feel like the New Day may be slowly turning heel as they get ready to surpass Demolition's record reign
I've noticed since the brand split there has been a lot less activity on this thread. We usually got 5-10 posts on a ppv event but lately that hasn't even sparked responses
The Ellsworth thing has been fun but shouldn't tie up the Smackdown world title. It should be a mid card talent being menaced by Ellsworth like 123 Kid on Raxor Ramon or Barry Horowitz on Skip
Poor Shane looked like a squirrel that got run over by a truck, I was glad to see him return on smackdown
   1723. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: November 29, 2016 at 09:08 AM (#5359231)
Excellent matches on RAW last night:
Charlotte/Sasha was the equivalent of a good ppv match
Guns and Gallows/New Day was also ppv calibre, it's a shame the wwe hasn't gotten Guns and Gallows over-they're both excellent workers
   1724. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: November 29, 2016 at 09:16 AM (#5359239)
anyone else excited to see what paul london can do in LU?


Well that was pretty weird.

I think his two partners are the former Mr. Cisco and the former Sinestro del Muerte.
   1725. Chokeland Bill Posted: November 29, 2016 at 05:07 PM (#5359642)
I thought it was the best Charlotte/Sasha match, but now we're going to have yet another one, possibly two more, due to rematch clauses. They aren't going to end Charlotte's PPV streak at Roadblock. I guess the clean way out of it is to have Foley declare the next match gets no re-match, then have Nia come out and screw Sasha. Or have Nia attack Charlotte to DQ Sasha, then lay out Sasha as well.
   1726. Man o' Schwar Posted: November 30, 2016 at 10:01 AM (#5359938)
Guns and Gallows/New Day was also ppv calibre, it's a shame the wwe hasn't gotten Guns and Gallows over-they're both excellent workers

I have to assume that, once New Day finally passes that tag team longevity record, they'll drop the belts to Guns and Gallows. Or to Sheamus/Cesaro to feud with Guns/Gallows (which could be some awesome matches).
   1727. vagab0nd kills for candy Posted: December 05, 2016 at 12:07 AM (#5362387)
anyone else excited to see what paul london can do in LU?



Well that was pretty weird.


i loved when they yanked aerostar and drago off the apron and begged for the tag.

as for who is who, i think you're right. will be interesting if the mr.cisco thing is an angle or not.

----

tlc was a solid, well told story from start to finish. before the main event ended, i came to the conclusion that not only is aj styles is mvp of the year, i think he is the best wrestler ever**.


** wrestling ability only, he's too weak with the mic to reach flair/austin territory on total ability.
   1728. SouthSideRyan Posted: December 05, 2016 at 01:40 AM (#5362412)
I thought this was in the running for worst PPV of the year. I'm that over Ellsworth. Also both women's matches were pretty poor.
   1729. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: December 05, 2016 at 08:50 AM (#5362439)
I thought TLC was a strong card, I felt AJ/Ambrose was a match of the year candidate but must say I too was underwhelmed by Ellsworth's presence. Hopefully he vanishes from the main event scene after Smackdown on Tuesday & maybe resurfaces as a bump taking heel manager

I was surprised that Lynch dropped the title, particularly to Bliss

I was not surprised that Slater/Rhyno lost the tag belts as they had been weak champs. I was happy they won the titles in Sept but the WWE had done little with them as a team since. Ellsworth could add spice as their Mgr if they turn heel

I was glad the Miz held on to the IC strap as he draws a ton heat with the belt. Whenever Ziggler wins a belt or has a big win, it seems like the WWE are stuck with "now what?" & don't know how to have him follow it up & he slips back down the card
   1730. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 05, 2016 at 10:21 AM (#5362482)
Bad time to do gimmick matches for the women after the match last Monday. They just looked outclassed. Alexa is the best of the women on the mic, but she's not there in the ring yet. Some good spots but kind of gets lost in-between.

Wyatts as the tag champs is fun, Orton has worked out way better than expected after the lame build to his turn.

The Miz/Bryan angle continues, it has to be going somewhere. Joe seems to be done on NXT, maybe he gets called up as Bryan's way to take the belt off Miz and it backfires?
   1731. Man o' Schwar Posted: December 05, 2016 at 01:02 PM (#5362648)
The Miz/Bryan angle continues, it has to be going somewhere.

It feels like it's going to be a huge letdown if it doesn't end up with a match between them at WM. But I'm not sure Bryan can be cleared for even one match, even if they keep away from any kind of head shots during the match. So I'm not sure where it's headed. I assumed a proxy match. Maybe Shawn Michaels (who trained Bryan) coming back? Who's out there who has a history with Bryan and would come in and take his place, but also who wouldn't be a huge letdown (I'm looking at you Kane)? Austin Aries?

Whatever it ends up being, it's been the best story line of the year.
   1732. Conor Posted: December 05, 2016 at 01:07 PM (#5362649)

It feels like it's going to be a huge letdown if it doesn't end up with a match between them at WM. But I'm not sure Bryan can be cleared for even one match, even if they keep away from any kind of head shots during the match. So I'm not sure where it's headed. I assumed a proxy match. Maybe Shawn Michaels (who trained Bryan) coming back? Who's out there who has a history with Bryan and would come in and take his place, but also who wouldn't be a huge letdown (I'm looking at you Kane)? Austin Aries?


Would Nakamura make sense here? They don't have a lot of history, though Bryan has said he'd love to wrestle him. But Nakamura's gimmick is the king of strong style, that could work in contrast with Miz and his weak offense or whatever the original knock Bryan had on him was.

All I watched last night was the main event; AJ is just so good.
   1733. Man o' Schwar Posted: December 05, 2016 at 01:09 PM (#5362651)
I thought last night's card was OK, though it might have been the worst crowd of the year. The main event was great, right up until the ending. The rest of the card was pretty meh. I don't know what you do with Dolph Ziggler now. You might as well just release him. Stick him in a tag team with Jack Swagger as former World Champions who are now directionless drifters who can't win a feud.

Ellsworth is a typical WWE thing - got over for no good reason, was a pleasant surprise for a few shows, and now they've beaten it into the ground. Wrap up his involvement and stick him back on whatever the current equivalent of Velocity is.

Nice to see Bray Wyatt getting a decent push forward, though I have to assume that this will all build to Orton eventually turning on him and beating him back down the ladder.
   1734. Man o' Schwar Posted: December 05, 2016 at 01:15 PM (#5362656)
Would Nakamura make sense here? They don't have a lot of history, though Bryan has said he'd love to wrestle him. But Nakamura's gimmick is the king of strong style, that could work in contrast with Miz and his weak offense or whatever the original knock Bryan had on him was.

That's the thing - no history. I'm trying to come up with someone out there who would make sense from a "they went through the battles together and came out respecting each other" standpoint, but I'm coming up empty. Aside from Aries, the only guy I can think of who's under contract with WWE now would be Hideo Itami, which I guess wouldn't be a bad choice if he can ever stay healthy for more than 3 minutes.
   1735. Conor Posted: December 05, 2016 at 01:22 PM (#5362663)
Yeah there's no history, I guess Bryan could say something like Nakamura embodies the style that he (Bryan) thinks is superior or whatever, but I could see that being a stretch.

They may also have no idea where they're going with this at this point
   1736. SouthSideRyan Posted: December 05, 2016 at 01:24 PM (#5362669)
I don't see why history is needed when said history isn't currently WWE canon. "These guys wrestled together in ROH 7 years ago" does nothing for the audience.
   1737. Man o' Schwar Posted: December 05, 2016 at 01:32 PM (#5362681)
They've shown more of a willingness recently to acknowledge things that happened outside of the WWE, so the history is more relevant now than it might have been 5-10 years ago.

I'd be all for Nakamura. It's time for him to come up anyway.
   1738. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 05, 2016 at 02:03 PM (#5362714)
These guys don't have history?

I just think Joe is more likely given the last week or so of NXT news.
   1739. Dock Ellis Posted: December 12, 2016 at 11:47 AM (#5366903)
John Cena on SNL was okay. He has obvious charisma and knows what he is doing in front of a camera and has proven himself funny in roles before, but it's like the writing staff had no idea of what he's capable of. A lot of it was dumb jock stuff, or jokes on how good-looking and ripped he is. But his Rob Gronkowski impression was pretty good, and the skit about his Instagram account was great (but perhaps only if you're already aware of his Instagram).
   1740. Chokeland Bill Posted: December 12, 2016 at 03:25 PM (#5367074)
WWE Match of the Year

1. KO vs Zayn - Battleground
2. Zayn vs Nakamura
3. DIY vs The Revival - Toronto
4. Sasha vs Charlotte - Falls Count Anywhere
5. TJP vs Kota Ibushi

Honorable Mention - Y2AJ vs New Day on RAW

WWE Performer of the Year

1. KO (in general, had better matches than AJ until the Jericho angle started, but said angle has generally been the highlight of Raw)
2. AJ (only classic match was against Cena, but always very good and better than expected on the mic)
3. The Miz (he's been just outstanding, even in the ring. Best talker in the company right now, except maaaaaybe Jericho)
4. The Revival (Best tag team in the biz by a fair margin)
5. Chris Jericho (mic only aside from that tag match, but man he's been great).

HM - Sasha and Charlotte - Sasha did nothing for months, is weak as a face promo but still a strong worker in-ring. Charlotte has been very good as a heel. The two of them together have become top stars and legit main event draws. No one could have seen that coming even four months ago. There's an argument that they have had the four best main roster women's matches ever this year (the three Raw matches + Mania), but all of those matches are weaker than Sasha's three in NXT last year.
HM2 - Sami Zayn is the best in-ring worker in the company when he's allowed to be. The end of the Battleground match against KO is the best sequence of the year.
HM3 - Daniel Bryan has been excellent at pretty much everything he's been asked to do this year, and none of it involves wrestling.

The in-ring product has been great this year. Several people have had standout years on the mic. Talent-wise, this might be the best WWE roster ever. It's too bad the booking and writing is holding the product back.
   1741. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: December 12, 2016 at 03:45 PM (#5367085)
Chris Hero is going back to NXT under his well-established ring name this time. The former "Kassius Ohno" has been one of the most consistently excellent workers on the independent scene for several years now but his ascension to the WWE was hindered by his lack of a suitably juiced-up physique. I think he's a fantastic wrestler and an A+ guy, and I'd actually watch the WWE product if he was featured.
   1742. Man o' Schwar Posted: December 12, 2016 at 03:59 PM (#5367097)
Chris Hero is going back to NXT under his well-established ring name this time. The former "Kassius Ohno" has been one of the most consistently excellent workers on the independent scene for several years now but his ascension to the WWE was hindered by his lack of a suitably juiced-up physique. I think he's a fantastic wrestler and an A+ guy, and I'd actually watch the WWE product if he was featured.

It's too much to hope for, but Cesaro + Hero reforming the Kings of Wrestling tag team would be terrific.
   1743. Dock Ellis Posted: December 12, 2016 at 04:00 PM (#5367100)
Interesting! Are they giving his conditioning a pass or has he promised to hit the gym?

   1744. Man o' Schwar Posted: December 12, 2016 at 04:05 PM (#5367105)
WWE Performer of the Year

1. KO (in general, had better matches than AJ until the Jericho angle started, but said angle has generally been the highlight of Raw)
2. AJ (only classic match was against Cena, but always very good and better than expected on the mic)


Honestly, I don't know how you choose between the two of them. I might give a slight edge to AJ, but there's no wrong choice here.

The in-ring product has been great this year. Several people have had standout years on the mic. Talent-wise, this might be the best WWE roster ever. It's too bad the booking and writing is holding the product back.

There have been a handful of missteps this year, but particularly in the second half of the year it's been pretty damn entertaining. It has helped immensely that "the Authority" is no longer the top story line on the show (which it really had been dating back to when Bryan was chasing the title).
   1745. aberg Posted: December 16, 2016 at 01:01 PM (#5369640)
Wrestler of the Year (Main Roster WWE)
1. AJ Styles- IMO, has had the best matches throughout the year and the storylines have been very good since around the time he started feuding with Cena.
2. Kevin Owens- maybe my all-time favorite indy guy. Great to see him fulfilling his potential, though his title reign has not been A+ so far.
3. Charlotte- best heel in the company
4. Miz- 2nd best heel in the company
5. Rusev
6. Jericho
7. New Day
8. Sasha Banks
9. Ambrose
10. Reigns

It might say something about how WWE books and writes for faces that my top 6 are all nominally heels.


Wrestler of the Year (NXT and non-WWE)
1. Matt Hardy
2. Kenny Omega
3. Revival
4. Samoa Joe
5. Nakamura
6. Young Bucks
7. Matanaza Cueto
8. Okada
9. Adam Cole
10. Naito
   1746. Styles P. Deadball Posted: December 16, 2016 at 03:15 PM (#5369753)
Interesting! Are they giving his conditioning a pass or has he promised to hit the gym?


I saw him twice at the local indy fed I go to: once two weeks after his release became public. Once more about 8 months later.

The first time, he was still in relatively good shape. While his body wasn't impressive, he could sure wrestle. I personally find him to be without charisma, but the younger millenial fans loved him. The second time he was there, he was a fat slob, was blown up two minutes into the match, and had to be carried by Matt Cage.

Perhaps he's seen the light, but the WWE I'm sure got some assurances that he'd take his conditioning more seriously. Otherwise, he's a sack of crap and worthless to them.
   1747. aberg Posted: December 19, 2016 at 12:04 PM (#5370729)
Thoughts on Roadblock: End of the Line.

Good:
1. Owens gets a good match out of everybody and he got a good match out of Reigns. The non-finish was a little unsatisfying, but I have been calling for a fatal fourway with these four over the last month and it seems like we're headed in that direction, possibly at the Rumble.

2. The old wrestling saying is that red makes green. I don't know if people will react differently to Sasha's busted nose than they would if it happened to a man (like how Cena got so much praise for wrestling through it against Rollins). The bottom line is that fighting through it breaks a real barrier for women's wrestling in the ring- if they are allowed to go on last, but their matches are held to different standards, then they're not really gaining equality. I liked the story of Sasha's resilience fighting back against Charlotte's relentless attacks on her leg. Charlotte is the best women's wrestler I have ever seen by a wide margin and I ultimately think it's good for her to move forward as champion. She has more heat as a heel than anyone else in WWE.

3. New Day-Sheamus and Cesaro was memorable because it had an odd pace. They moved almost straight into false finishes and interference, which was unique. It is time for New Day to try something a little different. I still love what they stand for and their mic work, but the storylines with other tag teams have become redundant. It might be enough to get them into some singles feuds while remaining a team. The early returns on Sheamus and Cesaro are good. It gives Sheamus some character texture that he has lacked and I am into anything involving Cesaro.

Bad:
1. The Pittsburgh crowd couldn't be bothered to pay attention to the matches the whole night. This is the second consecutive PPV where the fans sat on their hands and didn't interact with the matches at all (last one in Dallas). Sure, the ticket-buying audience can do whatever they want within the bounds of the arena rules, but I can also complain as a TV viewer that alternating between self-serving chants and reading Twitter detracts from the viewing experience.

2. Rollins and Jericho had a solid mid-card match, but I think I was expecting more. Some of it had to do with the silent crowd. Some of it also had to do with the weird placement on the card. They have been oddly explicit about Jericho being a placeholder until Rollins gets to HHH, so it doesn't feel very important. They are also in a strange position where Jericho has behaved purely as a heel, but is the more likable and charismatic character (there is some of this dynamic in KO-Reigns too, and I get that it translates somewhat into the fan response). Rollins getting a tough yet decisive win was the right call and I think he will gain fan support based on his in-ring performance more than hosting talk shows or coming up with quips.

3. The overall card felt like it was missing a match or two. Rusev and Cass on the pre-show was a short match with a messy schmoz finish. The CW match seemed slightly off after Kendrick took that ugly knee to the head in the opening minute and the finish was too abrupt. The entrances for the women's matches started 90 minutes into a 3 hour show, and there was no come-down in between that and the Universal Title match. Couldn't we have had a popcorn match thrown in with Bayley or the Golden Truth or something? While I liked the 3 matches I listed as "good," and they took up a majority of the show, it's not a compliment to say that they can only come up with 3 interesting matches for a PPV.
   1748. Man o' Schwar Posted: December 19, 2016 at 12:44 PM (#5370787)
I would add to the Good:

Neville. The return of the cruisers has gotten precious little reaction from the crowds, no matter what combination they throw out there. And moving the title between a bunch of people in short time hasn't exactly built up anyone as being the dominant force. Well, now they have that. Neville looks great, and he's already proven he can hang with the larger wrestlers on the main roster. If anyone is going to get the crowd to start caring, he's probably the one.

And I'm happy it looks like they've finally found something to do with Cesaro. He's one of the 2-3 best wrestlers in the company, the crowds generally love him, yet he's gotten no traction at all the last few years beyond being an upper midcard guy who can fill out Elimination Chamber and MITB matches but never win them. Let he and Sheamus have some awesome matches with Gallows/Anderson, Revival, et al., and move the New Day on to something else. Almost 500 days as the champions, it was well past time for someone new.
   1749. bigglou115 is not an Illuminati agent Posted: December 19, 2016 at 12:44 PM (#5370788)
@1747

Only things I'd challenge are on Rollins and the CWs.

I'm really just being a bit picky here, but I think the Rollins turn was always going to be supported by his in ring work. What held him back as a heel was that he was working as a face in his matches up until he got to the finishes. They wasted their chance by bringing him back heel, now they just need to signal to the crowd "we want you to cheer him" and let time and momentum fix the rest, but I'm still quite hopeful that it'll work out. Have HHH come out and threaten the return of the authority angle, and have Rollins stop him and I think the crowds will wake up for him, which seems to be the direction they're going.

The CW segment had only one purpose, re-introduce Neville, which they did and the crowd woke up for it. It really goes to show how much that division has needed someone the audience recognized and how bad they've been at introducing 3 dimensional characters in the division, because Neville was a forgotten man for a long time before this.

I lied, one more thing. You can't really say they let Sasha work through anything last night. Camera did its best to shoot from behind Sasha to minimize views of her face during the figure four (the sooner they completely abandon the bridge into the figure eight the better) and then were careful not to cut to a reaction of her or even have her on camera before they got her a towel. The camerawork makes me think there was a real conversation in back about calling it, they really seemed adverse to showing her bleed. Sometimes they do that with men now as well, but usually not on a pay tv night.
   1750. Man o' Schwar Posted: December 19, 2016 at 12:55 PM (#5370800)
I lied, one more thing. You can't really say they let Sasha work through anything last night. Camera did its best to shoot from behind Sasha to minimize views of her face during the figure four (the sooner they completely abandon the bridge into the figure eight the better) and then were careful not to cut to a reaction of her or even have her on camera before they got her a towel. The camerawork makes me think there was a real conversation in back about calling it, they really seemed adverse to showing her bleed. Sometimes they do that with men now as well, but usually not on a pay tv night.

Honestly, I was afraid they'd stop it. I was thinking back to the Samoa Joe/Finn Balor NXT match where Joe got busted open really early on, and they kept stopping the match to clean him up every 60 seconds or so. It completely killed the match, and I know both wrestlers were unhappy with the way it was handled. Given that it was a woman bleeding (which, if it's not a first, it's pretty close in the WWE), I figured the ref would pause the action, call out the doctor, try to clean it up, determine whether it was going to keep bleeding, etc., all while Charlotte stood there and the crowd booed.

If they consciously chose to try to keep it off camera (and it probably helped knowing that there were only a couple of minutes left in the match), that's a pretty reasonable outcome compared to some of the alternatives.
   1751. aberg Posted: December 19, 2016 at 01:43 PM (#5370844)
I would add to the Good:

Neville.


Yup, I forgot to list him, but that was a highlight to me. It also doesn't help that the top two performers from the CWC (Kota Ibushi and Gran Metalik) have not been in the division. At least Metalik is on his way. Would be a huge coup that would elevate the division substantially if Ibushi joined. It might also encourage more of the technical CWs on the main roster to work in the division more regularly Kalisto, Gable, Enzo, Breeze could all have a future there, not to mention NXT guys like Gargano, Ciampa, Aries, Strong, and Itami. If they got most of those guys involved, you could even have Finn Balor float in and out. Imagine if the roster was headlined by Balor, Ibushi, Neville, Metalik, Itami, Aries, and Gable. They could have storylines at matches to rival the heavyweights.
   1752. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 05, 2017 at 02:33 PM (#5378105)
The Wrestle Kingdom main event was pretty stellar.
   1753. Man o' Schwar Posted: January 06, 2017 at 02:18 PM (#5378902)
I saw that Meltzer gave it 6 stars, I believe the first time ever. Plus 4.5 stars for 3 other matches on the card. That's... impressive.
   1754. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 06, 2017 at 02:40 PM (#5378928)
Yeah, I don't think it's the best match ever like it's been hyped over the past few days, probably not even the best Okada match I've seen, but it was damn good. It's hard to beat the big New Japan shows, the top matches are generally always much better than what the WWE guys are generally allowed to do.
   1755. Guy Heckler's Veto Posted: January 06, 2017 at 02:51 PM (#5378932)
Golden Truth: The worst?
   1756. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 06, 2017 at 03:10 PM (#5378948)
Nah, Titus O'Neil is the worst*. Both guys in Golden Truth have their talents, they're just washed up.

* Worst at his job of being a professional sports entertainer. Titus has no noteworthy skills other than size, but by all indications he is a terrific person off-camera.
   1757. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: January 06, 2017 at 03:32 PM (#5378970)
Titus O'Neal really needs some larger trunks. Golden Truth is pretty bad , Titus is about equally bad. The skit a/Titus & New Day was funny though

What do people here think of Strowman & Corbin. Both appear to be getting big pushes but I'm not really ever excited to see either fight
   1758. Guy Heckler's Veto Posted: January 06, 2017 at 03:43 PM (#5378984)
Goldust can still work but is in a position where the brass would see no upside in giving him even low midcard singles exposure. I'm a total Goldust mark though and think his 95-96 run was one of the best ever, with a character that was one of the most interesting (certainly from the sociology of crowd-wrestler dynamics) ever. WWE's been terrible with Rhodes's (basically other than that Goldust run,) and they totally mishandled the Cody-dust pairing after their Shield match, which should've built up to a Goldust-Cody feud in the midcard of a big-4 PPV where Cody got over and got back on on a path towards the top of the card. WWE often reaches epic levels on ineptitude on these matters.

I only watched Hulu versions of Raw so didn't see Golden Truth stuff until I was looking for videos to show a friend who I was gonna go to the Barclays house show with. R Truth's original raps were bad. This new Golden Truth one is basically the one-off "Hug the Police" joke from "The Critic" made into a rap, with a bouncing Goldust head to follow along with the lyrics. I'm guessing this was no more deep than "Hey, Goldust had a good comedy run with Booker T, let's pair him with another black guy and... profit?"

Always amusing how the announcers talk Titus up (and it's always in that way fans talk up unrealistic ceilings of prospects, sure one out of 50 hits the hype...) And JBL I think would always say something like "Titus is a future champion." Need more than a great look to have that kind of upside, and the fans ain't that dumb.
   1759. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 06, 2017 at 04:20 PM (#5379018)
What do people here think of Strowman & Corbin. Both appear to be getting big pushes but I'm not really ever excited to see either fight


Strowman is not as bad as I thought he would be a year ago. Pretty athletic considering his size, and he's got a certain charm to him. Still bad, but I heard his LMS match with Sami this week was pretty good. They've booked him very well.

I think Corbin has his moments and has plenty of potential. The character is good. Look is good as long as he keeps his shirt on. Great finisher that has an RKO-like ability to be used as a sudden counter and looks really impressive when he's tossing guys around with it. His last few months in NXT were solid, and his matches on Smackdown the last couple of weeks have been good, especially the triple threat. Seems to get lost sometimes, like he forgets what he's supposed to say in a promo or misses a spot in a match. He's done well on Talking Smack, so maybe another guy who gets hurt by all the scripting. He was also hurt by coming up and immediately getting put in a 50/50 feud. He really should have been given the treatment Strowman has, squash matches until facing a credible guy who can bump like crazy for him.
   1760. Dock Ellis Posted: January 06, 2017 at 04:45 PM (#5379039)
Titus and Sami Zayn had a short but great feud in NXT. He really looked Brock Lesnar-esque for a match or two.
   1761. don't ask 57i66135; he wants to hang them all Posted: January 11, 2017 at 08:52 PM (#5382081)
they should put titus with the cruiserweights and never call attention to it. it'd be a fun sight gag and there's a lot of material to mine, whether you want to book him as an unstoppable force or as someone who's inexplicably losing to midgets.


   1762. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: January 11, 2017 at 10:27 PM (#5382106)
So...isn't this how it usually works? Strowman finally gets beaten, becomes part of a "mismatched" tag team, has a beauty and the beast storyline with a Diva, turns and has a mid-card babyface run, and ultimately ends up dancing.
   1763. MHS Posted: January 12, 2017 at 10:32 AM (#5382238)
I'm a total Goldust mark


I think it's is pretty likely that Dustin is the best wrestler, by any definition of the word, with a ~30 year career to never have a world title run.

This summer I rated him the 30th best wrestler ever and in reviewing that list now I think that is possible a few spots too low. Then again I've watched a ton of early 90's WCW over the last few months and was amazed at how good he was even then.

I can't believe they never put the belt on him.

   1764. Conor Posted: January 12, 2017 at 02:05 PM (#5382459)
I think it's is pretty likely that Dustin is the best wrestler, by any definition of the word, with a ~30 year career to never have a world title run.

This summer I rated him the 30th best wrestler ever and in reviewing that list now I think that is possible a few spots too low. Then again I've watched a ton of early 90's WCW over the last few months and was amazed at how good he was even then.

I can't believe they never put the belt on him.


Piper never got a world title, did he? He was a bigger star than Goldust, in ring, well, maybe not.

He (Dustin) probably ends up with at least a run if Hogan never comes into WCW, no?
   1765. SouthSideRyan Posted: January 12, 2017 at 03:45 PM (#5382547)
Dibiase didn't make it 30 years, but that seems pretty restrictive to me.
   1766. RJ in TO Posted: January 12, 2017 at 04:02 PM (#5382562)
I think it's is pretty likely that Dustin is the best wrestler, by any definition of the word, with a ~30 year career to never have a world title run.

This summer I rated him the 30th best wrestler ever and in reviewing that list now I think that is possible a few spots too low. Then again I've watched a ton of early 90's WCW over the last few months and was amazed at how good he was even then.

I can't believe they never put the belt on him.


Would you be willing to share this list?
   1767. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: January 12, 2017 at 04:27 PM (#5382573)
Dibiase didn't make it 30 years, but that seems pretty restrictive to me.

Before he became a cartoon villain, DiBiase had multiple runs as the North American Heavyweight Champion in Mid-South which was the premier belt in the fed.
   1768. Man o' Schwar Posted: January 12, 2017 at 04:49 PM (#5382597)
True, but I think Mid-South was still technically under the NWA at the time, so it wasn't truly a recognized world title. Also, if we're counting territorial/federation titles, I know that Dustin won the top belt in some smaller federations during his career.

If Lawler hadn't gotten a run as the AWA champion in the federation's dying days, I'd put him on this list.
   1769. Dock Ellis Posted: January 12, 2017 at 05:25 PM (#5382617)
Yes, please share the list.
   1770. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: January 12, 2017 at 08:58 PM (#5382731)
Glad this thread is back up. Haven't seen any of his work prior to coming to WWE...but AJ Styles is on my short list for greatest wrestlers of all time. I also think he is/was the clear wrestler of the year. I know most people seem to think he's mediocre to ok on the mic...but I think he's a very good promo as a heel, and maybe just good as a face. In terms of in-ring, for the longest time HBK was my personal gold standard, but Styles does everything he did, except better and can also do a bunch of other even cooler stuff too. Between him and the Miz, Smackdown is such compelling tv.
   1771. Guy Heckler's Veto Posted: January 12, 2017 at 10:07 PM (#5382751)

I can't believe they never put the belt on him.


I get the sense his "personal demons" (as WWE likes to call such things) probably was the biggest roadblock in the WWE for Goldust. I mean in his 96 run look at who they put him against. He went over Razor and feuded with an Ultimate Warrior that Vince would've loved to have had at the top of the card if Warrior wasn't Warrior. He also worked with Mankind and 'Taker and had a Ladder match for the belt against Shawn Michaels. Vince probably had reluctance to go all out for any Rhodes, but it seems Goldy could've been a main-eventer (probably would've never been more than transitional as a champ with that gimmick.)

Now, the under-use of Cody Rhodes is ANOTHER story. (But I think he's even more talented than Dusty and Dustin.)
   1772. Guy Heckler's Veto Posted: January 12, 2017 at 10:11 PM (#5382752)
Something I saw on Reddit says Stone Cold talks a bunch on his podcast about how over Goldust was (and you can hear it in the crowd in the Michaels-Goldy ladder match) and that it was pressure from various groups about the Goldust character that essentially stopped the push. Dunno if anyone has good links to clips of Stone Cold speaking to that effect.
   1773. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 13, 2017 at 06:44 AM (#5382808)
By the time Barry Windham won the NWA title it was essentially worthless. In my mind he was the best wrestler never to get a run with a major title.
   1774. MHS Posted: January 13, 2017 at 08:51 AM (#5382836)


Would you be willing to share this list?



Making the list was really hard to make, but participating in the poll on prowrestling only was a really fun experience.

In retrospect, I would change a lot. ALOT. I would almost certainly move Flair, Austin, Brock, Taue, Tenryu meaningfuly lower. Windham, Funk, Dustin, Cena, and Hayes higher. Styles would be much higher.

I didn't include women, lucha or world or sports. Japan is under represented. That's the gap I'm most interested in filling along with seeing along with more Portland.
1. Eddie Guerrero
2. Stan Hansen
3 Kenta Kobashi
4. Daniel Bryan
5. Jumbo Tsuruta
6. Ric Flair
7. Terry Funk
8. Tenryu
9. Mitsuharu Misawa
10. Ricky Steamboat
11. Jushin Thunder Liger
12. Jerry Lawler
13. Tatsumi Fujinnami
14. Barry Windham
15. Toshiaki Kawada
16. Brock Lesner
17. Steve Austin
18. Yoshiaki Fujiwara
19. Akira Taue
20. Rey Misterio
21. William Regal
22. Randy Savage
23. Vadar
24. Bret Hart
25. Dick Murdoch
26. Fit Finlay
27. Harley Race
28. Nick Bochwinkel
29. Buddy Rose
30. Dustin Rhodes
31. Arn Anderson
32. Tully Blanchard
33. Larry Zybisco
34. Jun Akiyama
35. Bobby Eaton
36. Dynamite Kid
37. John Cena
38. Riki Choshu
39. Shawn Michaels
40. Tiger Mask
41. Jerry Lynn
42. Sean Waltman
43. Michael Hayes
44. Masa Fuchi45. Ted Dibiasse
46. Rick Martel
47. Greg Valentine
48. Bill Eadie
49. Rick Rude
50. Andre the Giant
51. Mick Foley
52. Chir Jericho
53. Terry Gordy
54. Kerry Von Eric
55. Owen Hart
56. Kurt Angle
57. Yoshihiro Tajari
58. Ron Simmons
59. The Rock
60. Keiji Mutoh
61. Big Boss Man
62. CM Punk
63. Paul Orndorff
64. Naomichi Marufuji
65. KENTA
66. Steve Williams
67. Ricky Morton
68. Mark Henry
69. Christian
70. Masa Chono
71. Hiroshi Hase
72. Kensuke Sadaki
73. Cesaro
74. AJ Styles
75. Ronnie Garvin
76. Samoa Joe
77. Sami Zayn
78. Lex Luger
79. Tito Sanatana
80. Curt Hennig
81. Tsuyoschi Kikuchi
82. Chris Adams
83. Jeff Hardy
84. Sgt Slaughter
85. Ultimo Dragon
86. Butch Reed
87. Tommy Rogers
88. Sheamus
89. Brain Pillman
90. Davey Boy Smith
91. 2 Cold Scoprio
92. Bill Dundee
93. Shimjiro Ohtani
94. Hiroshi Tanahashi
95. Yoshiiaki Yatsu
96. Yugi Nagata
97. Nakamura
98. The Great Sasuke
99. Roddy Piper
100. Hulk Hogan

   1775. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 13, 2017 at 09:15 AM (#5382846)
12. Jerry Lawler


If he was any lower I'd have to pull down my shoulder strap. I'll put the chain back in my pants now.

   1776. Hot Wheeling American Posted: January 13, 2017 at 09:31 AM (#5382854)
Making the list was really hard to make, but participating in the poll on prowrestling only was a really fun experience.


It was fun just following along last year. The List.

Also, having not watched regularly since 2000, I randomly decided to start following Smackdown Live! following the brand split. Really happy with that decision as it's been great. Miz is the best, of course. And they're even starting to make something out of Corbin. This week Ziggler gave hise best interview I've seen post-split (by answering the interviewer's questions with silence and walking away).
   1777. MHS Posted: January 13, 2017 at 10:00 AM (#5382871)
Ziggler


I can't watch Ziggler. In fact, I generally can't watch promos anymore, they are just so bad. I loved New Day for a while, but they burned it out. Miz is the best promo in the company right? I can't think of anyone else I won't just fast forward through now. Am I missing anyone?
   1778. Hot Wheeling American Posted: January 13, 2017 at 10:22 AM (#5382881)
Cena obviously hasn't been around much recently, but he's been pretty on point. I don't need to fast forward through Alexa Bliss or AJ, so that's something.
   1779. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 13, 2017 at 01:05 PM (#5383005)
Jericho and Owens are both great promos, though they've been stuck in comedy mode for months.

Basically everyone has been better on Talking Smack than on Smackdown, so that probably means it's mostly the rigid scripting that holds a lot of people back.
   1780. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: January 13, 2017 at 03:41 PM (#5383079)
Jericho and Owens are both great promos, though they've been stuck in comedy mode for months.

This week after RAW went off the air, The Undertaker confronted Jericho/Owens and K.O. told 'Taker, "You're my mom's favorite wrestler."

Which really should've been on TV.
   1781. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 13, 2017 at 06:11 PM (#5383153)
No discussion of Kenny Omega vs Kazuchiko Okada from Wrestle Kingdom, the match being called one of the best of all-time by Meltzer?
   1782. Scott Lange Posted: January 13, 2017 at 11:18 PM (#5383216)
   1783. MHS Posted: January 13, 2017 at 11:43 PM (#5383221)
I think it's being over sold. Excellent match, but not anywhere near as good as the hype.
- hated the early floor stuff including the hanging ddt on the floor that was no sold.
- pace was off. Too slow through out. There were bursts of action but very spread out.
- hated the dives to the floor particularly the somersault planchette that lead to 4 minutes lying around.
- not a fan of a junior using a clothesline as a bomb.
- the last 20 minutes was WAY too movsey and at a way slow pace. I can live with movsey, but not in slow mo.
- loved omega top rope drop kick
- loved the teasing over the table. Best drama of the match.
- best backdrop ever!
   1784. Guy Heckler's Veto Posted: January 14, 2017 at 02:24 AM (#5383237)
Jim Cornette hates Kenny Omega, for, among other things wrestling a little girl and a blowup doll. Hearing him go off about this match has been pretty amusing.
   1785. RJ in TO Posted: January 15, 2017 at 06:03 PM (#5383645)
Jimmy Snuka has died.
   1786. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 16, 2017 at 12:08 AM (#5383747)
not a fan of a junior using a clothesline as a bomb.


Assuming this is about Okada, he's 6'3". He's the biggest main event guy in NJPW by a fair margin.
   1787. MHS Posted: January 16, 2017 at 07:16 AM (#5383761)
Strike that. His build is very slight, which fooled me.
   1788. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 16, 2017 at 08:38 AM (#5383768)
Jimmy Snuka has died.


My strongest memory of Snuka is Roddy Piper taunting him with racist stereotypes before bashing him in the head with an gimmicked coconut and whipping him with a leather belt. I'm ok with that.
   1789. MHS Posted: January 17, 2017 at 11:01 PM (#5384869)
I little youtube of the day (lets see how frequently I do this, a couple times of week maybe).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5w6w_Jsq-Iw

Buddy Rose versus Curt Hennig from March 26th 83,

The shine is some awesome arm work. Nothing ground breaking but just really crisp and well executed. The arm pull, to the 10 count was very cool, which I'm surprised didn't become a staple face spot. I'm not sure anyone takes an arm drag better than Buddy Rose... and no one takes an atomic drop better. Someone, needs to write a post about forgotten and missed wrestling moves, I think atomic drop would have to rank pretty highly.

Even in 83, Hennig could bump and sell, he took the he face smash on the outside like a gun shot.

Just a great 15 minute match.

Watch it and share your thoughts!


   1790. Man o' Schwar Posted: January 18, 2017 at 11:54 AM (#5385081)
Someone, needs to write a post about forgotten and missed wrestling moves, I think atomic drop would have to rank pretty highly.

It's funny you say that. I was thinking the other day that I can't remember the last time I saw the tag spot where both guys get atomic dropped, and then they crash into each other. That was an absolute staple of 1980s tag wrestling, and it never failed to draw a good response from the crowd.

Also MIA: the double noggin-knocker.
   1791. aberg Posted: January 18, 2017 at 12:22 PM (#5385117)
I was in Japan the week after New Year's and got to go to WK11. It was a really fun experience. I think the idea of going beyond 5 stars for rating matches is pretty ridiculous. I usually rate matches with letter grades because I think the differentiation makes more sense. I think that most years have 0-2 A+ matches, and I would give the main event an A+. MHS's critiques are fair, but the technical skill, the dramatic build, and the way that the stakes for the match helped to shape the story they told were all superb.

I also LOVED Naito-Tanahashi and Takahashi-Kushida. I think Kushida gets overlooked slightly, but reliably has awesome matches on big shows. Goto-Shibata was great, though maybe a small step below those two. The rest of the show was kind of forgettable. There were some funny spots in the Jr Tag match and I actually enjoyed the Tiger Mask W (Ibushi) vs. Tiger Dark (ACH) opener, even though it was only a few minutes long. The Cody Rhodes match might have been the worst on the card- very disappointing. It was bad enough that it discouraged me from buying a ticket to the indy show he headlined in Seattle when I got home.

I had never been to a Japanese show before, let alone a Tokyo Dome show. It was fun to see the responses and the rhythm of the crowd in person. My wife came to the show with me. She had never seen much puroresu at all and her impression was that it was more technical and stiff than American wrestling and also a bit slower moving. Shout out to my wife, who has now been to about 10 Raws/Smackdowns, 2 Wrestlemanias, 2 NXT Shows, an ROH show, and WK with me.
   1792. RJ in TO Posted: January 18, 2017 at 12:47 PM (#5385142)
Related to the lost moves, one of the reasons I enjoyed watching Kevin Owens' early matches in WWE was because of his willingness to break out the old school power moves like the backbreaker and shoulderbreaker. You saw those all the time in the 80s, but the frequency of their appearance really dropped off in the Attitude era, and never really recovered.
   1793. MHS Posted: January 18, 2017 at 01:09 PM (#5385160)
I would give the main event an A+.


Taste vary and all that, but man nothing happened for the first forever in that match.

Very cool seeing a dome show live, very very cool. Seeing a memorable, pollarizing match is just a huge bonus. I'm jealous.

My wife who is amazing would never go see a show with me.

Amazingness.
   1794. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 18, 2017 at 03:16 PM (#5385329)
Taste vary and all that, but man nothing happened for the first forever in that match.


From what I understand, this was intentional because the previous match was also a big deal (Tanahashi and Naito being probably the the 1A and 1B most popular guys in the company) and they didn't want to burn out the crowd. So it probably plays better to those watching the full show rather than just the main event.

I think Okada's series with Tanahashi had 2 or 3 better matches than Omega-Okada. A big part of that is the callbacks between matches, where stuff that worked the first time wouldn't the second because the opponent was prepared for it. Omega-Okada didn't have this since it was their first match.
   1795. Man o' Schwar Posted: January 18, 2017 at 04:39 PM (#5385422)
A big part of that is the callbacks between matches, where stuff that worked the first time wouldn't the second because the opponent was prepared for it.

That's a very old school concept, and one that seems to have disappeared from a lot of US wrestling. Back in the 1980s, that was something they always played up in the Ric Flair matches - when he would lose, it would be by a surprise move, or by someone countering a move that he had used to beat them previously. Then in the next rematch, Flair would turn the tables and use a new move, or counter the counter, to win again. You don't see it as much any more, where people just kick out of finishers instead of countering them based on past experience (for the most part).
   1796. aberg Posted: January 18, 2017 at 05:16 PM (#5385488)
That's a very old school concept, and one that seems to have disappeared from a lot of US wrestling. Back in the 1980s, that was something they always played up in the Ric Flair matches - when he would lose, it would be by a surprise move, or by someone countering a move that he had used to beat them previously. Then in the next rematch, Flair would turn the tables and use a new move, or counter the counter, to win again. You don't see it as much any more, where people just kick out of finishers instead of countering them based on past experience (for the most part).


This was a hallmark of the excellent Orton-Christian feud a few years ago. Punk also usually did it in his extended programs, though to a lesser extent.
   1797. MHS Posted: January 18, 2017 at 06:06 PM (#5385539)
I love call back, with that said I sort of view them like easter eggs. A hidden gem for hardcores to discover, but the match must stand on its own.

Recently, the most notable call backs were the Claudio - Zayn NXT feud...

Hmm... See what I just did, totally inadvertent.

   1798. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 29, 2017 at 10:41 PM (#5392148)
They HAVE to be turning Roman at Mania, right? They can't be this stupid. Right? Right?
   1799. NJ in NY (Now with Baby!) Posted: January 29, 2017 at 10:48 PM (#5392151)
I like that I can consistently count on Roman to generate a ton of heat every Rumble.
   1800. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 29, 2017 at 10:54 PM (#5392155)
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