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Monday, October 27, 2014

OT: Wrestling Thread November 2014

Given that the old wrestling thread got shut down, here is a new one that shamelessly links to my Hell in a Cell review!

aberg Posted: October 27, 2014 at 01:47 PM | 2419 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: wrestling

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   201. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 02, 2015 at 04:28 PM (#4871841)
I hate that Lesnar is about to leave and we never got to see Lesnar-Orton.
   202. aberg Posted: January 02, 2015 at 04:40 PM (#4871853)
I'm not so sure that Lesnar's leaving. He doesn't have a realistic alternative that can pay him nearly as much money. The reason he came back to wrestling instead of MMA was that his body couldn't handle MMA anymore after he had his freaking intestines taken out. I'd be pretty surprised if he could suddenly do it again.
   203. Conor Posted: January 02, 2015 at 04:50 PM (#4871860)
I don't know a ton about the MMA scene, but both Bellator and UFC may be making a run at signing him. The other question would be how much is WWE willing to pay him; do they think he's worth the contract he signed before? There is a part of me that thinks Vince may not like how it would look if he "lost" two stars in short order (Punk and Lesnar) to UFC/MMA in general, and he might just throw the same contract at him.

I think he's making like $5 million a year right now?
   204. my email address is hashtag 57i66135 Posted: January 02, 2015 at 06:17 PM (#4871885)
I hate that Lesnar is about to leave and we never got to see Lesnar-Orton.

i hate that it took more than 3 seconds for me to realize this was sarcasm.

anyway, i'd prefer to see ambrose/bryan at wrestlemania. i think they could set up a more compelling storyline since they wouldn't have to talk up the MITB contract and, by extension, the WWE title. i also have a feeling that putting two ROH guys like bryan and rollins together would lead to them both getting shortchanged, if not outright buried.

if there's a way to pull it off, i'd like to see rollins break away from HHH and set up a feud for them going into wrestlemania. if you need to shoehorn it into something bigger, you could have HHH toss rollins aside as his protege in favor of reigns and set up a HHH/reigns v. rollins/cena match. that won't put reigns in the main event, but if he pins cena clean at wrestlemania, that'd be a hell of a statement (even though cena would absolutely blow it off 5 minutes later and go on like it never happened).


that leaves lesnar/undertaker II. taker can avenge his loss, win the title one last time, then retire the next night. plus, you'd get him winning the rumble as a surprise entrant, which would be awesome and completely unexpected.
   205. SouthSideRyan Posted: January 02, 2015 at 08:40 PM (#4871923)
Why on Earth would you want to turn Rollins?
   206. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 02, 2015 at 09:07 PM (#4871932)
I'm going to pimp something else I wrote here about Lucha Underground. For better or worse, it looks almost nothing like any other wrestling on TV. So far, I would say it has been for the better.


I'm a bit late to this fiesta but I echo andrewbergs summary here - this is finally the alternative to WWE-ized American wrestling many fan had been waiting for, a product that is distinct and proudly different from anything else you'll find on TV. I'm actually not a fan of the lucha style, the obviousness of the cooperation in many spots has always rubbed me raw, but everything about this show is somehow compelling. I saw there were some big names affiliated with this show, including reality TV wizard Mark Burnett and producer and director Robert Rodriguez (yep, that Robert Rodriguez) which undoubtedly contributes to some of the more unique production approaches. Some of the backstage scenes are shot exactly like a scene from a broadcast soap opera but with better mood lighting, and the effect is compelling.

You can find HD episodes of Lucha Underground on YouTube, and its existence caused me to check out its parent network, El Rey, a newly-launched cable network targeting the young male Latino demographic. So far El Rey seems to have a great mix of fun programming - tonight had one of those great overdubbed Hong Kong kung fu movies from the 70s, The Pirate, followed by the original Fright Night and the original Logan's Run. Tomorrow is an all-day Miami Vice marathon. If they capture the viewership of Yankee Rednecks their crossover appeal is obvious.
   207. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 02, 2015 at 11:57 PM (#4871996)
i hate that it took more than 3 seconds for me to realize this was sarcasm.

I wasn't being sarcastic. My memory may be off and I haven't watched anything that occurred between '10-'12 but I don't think Orton and Lesnar have ever had a feud and I love both guys.
   208. Mark Edward Posted: January 03, 2015 at 07:06 PM (#4872256)
Great American Bash 1989 is just a fantastic PPV.
- It's a bit of a lame match, but Brian Pillman makes his debut.
- The Skyscrapers v. Dynamic Dudes match is memorable for 3 reasons. 1. Douglas & Johnny Ace awkwardly play frisbee with a kid from the crowd before the match. 2. Sid is incredibly over with the crowd (not sure why though, it was his PPV debut IIRC) and they constantly chant his name throughout the match. 3. Dan Spivey's horrible powerbomb to win the match for the Skyscrapers.
- In-ring PPV debut of Scott Steiner IIRC. Steiners v. Varsity Club is short but fun.
- The second half of the show is just nonstop awesome. Sting is still kind of green at this point but Muta of course gets a great match out of him. I'm currently watching a whole bunch of wrestling from this time period and Muta's just on a whole 'nother level.
- Luger was on fire in 1989. He's a narcissistic heel here against Steamboat. Steamboat's terrific as the plucky underdog. Both guys play their roles so well.
- WarGames is probably my second-favorite gimmick match so of course I really liked Midnight Express/Road Warriors/Steve Williams v. Freebirds/Samoan Swat Team. Best spot was Michael Hayes entering the cage and immediately DDT'ing everyone in the rings.
- Now I haven't seen Flair-Steamboat from Clash 6 but I think I like Flair's series of matches with Funk in '89 a bit better. Here Flair and Funk fight like they literally want to kill each other. And the post-match antics are completely bonkers- Muta & Funk double-team Flair until Sting makes the save and all 4 brawl all over the arena. Such a cool image at the end as Flair cuts a promo with half his face covered in blood and the other half in green mist.
   209. smileyy Posted: January 03, 2015 at 08:49 PM (#4872320)
Flair and Muta really made Sting's career, huh?
   210. smileyy Posted: January 03, 2015 at 08:57 PM (#4872326)
Maybe Lesnar figures he can turn his body into one or two more paydays in MMA?
   211. Mark Edward Posted: January 05, 2015 at 03:46 AM (#4873016)
Wrestle Kingdom 9 is highly, highly recommended. I can't decide whether I like Ibushi-Nakamura or Okada-Tanahashi better but both are probably the best matches I'll see this year. Ishii-Makabe was just brutal. Omega-Taguchi was excellent too. Basically everything outside the 6-man and 8-man tag matches is worth watching.
   212. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 05, 2015 at 08:47 AM (#4873050)
Did you watch the Japanese broadcast or the English-language version? I was wondering if adding Ross improved the accessibility of the broadcast or not, he didn't strike me as someone who would have an encyclopedic knowledge of the wrestlers and angles.
   213. aberg Posted: January 05, 2015 at 11:13 AM (#4873144)
I watched about half of the English broadcast. I recorded it and have not had time to finish it, but I was able to see the first few matches and the last match. Ross was a little lost at times, but Striker is an encyclopedia and helped keep him on message. I enjoyed the presentation and the wrestling was about as good as it can be.
   214. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 05, 2015 at 05:28 PM (#4873668)
Just finished Bragging Rights '09:

1. This PPV's concept was...stupid.

2. The promo package for Cena-Orton Iron Man belongs in the Promo Package HOF alongside greats such as Rock-Austin WM XVII.

3. The booking of the Cena-Orton Iron Man match was terrible. First, by making the match no DQ you ruin a lot of the Iron Man psychology of "Is it worth it to lose a round by DQ if I can beat my opponent badly enough to soften him up?" and replaced it with head scratchers such as "Why wouldn't I just immediately grab a chair and beat my opponent for 60 minutes? Why do I ever put down foreign objects?" In addition, the 30 second rest period between rounds added boring periods of nothing in a match that is already risking being boring without having the right competitors. Finally, if you're Randy Orton, why in the hell would you tap out with 2 seconds left? The score is 5-5, why not just go to OT or pass out in hopes of going to OT rather than give up the guaranteed victory? Better yet, why not immediately tap out once you're in the STFU and give yourself time to try and get an RKO (out of nowhere) to even the score?

4. I'm starting to get a sneaky suspicion Cena is allowed to blade. He started bleeding in this match in a manner very similar to the way he bled in his Extreme Rules '12 match with Lesnar (which I just watched yesterday for shits and giggles) and at the previous month's PPV, HIAC '09, he very clearly dropped a blade.

5. Funny moment in the Smackdown-Raw 7 on 7 match where Big Show turned on Team RAW to ensure a Smackdown victory. If I had seen this before SS '14 I might have had more questions about Show's intentions.
   215. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 05, 2015 at 08:11 PM (#4873785)
Ok, Rollins-Cena-Lesnar should be pretty great.

Seems like a prime opportunity for a cash in, too. Lesnar can drop the belt without taking the pin. Cena can pin Rollins, Lesnar beats down Cena, Rollins cashes in. That heads perfectly into my preferred Reigns-Lesnar, Bryan-Rollins scenario.
   216. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 05, 2015 at 08:39 PM (#4873805)
[215] Cena's next title reign will tie him with Flair. In my mind, they wouldn't "waste" that on a short run out of respect for Flair. But, that might just be my personal bias talking.

EDIT: I'm much more excited to see a Lesnar-Rollins-Cena matchup than I was for Cena-Lesnar though.
   217. Mark Edward Posted: January 05, 2015 at 08:56 PM (#4873815)
That is now the 8th IC title change since Barrett last won the belt in early May 2014.

Jobber matches are great; WWE needs to use them more often.
   218. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 05, 2015 at 08:56 PM (#4873816)
The Ascension are so, so, so bad.
   219. bigglou115 is not an Illuminati agent Posted: January 05, 2015 at 09:36 PM (#4873839)
@218, I don't know if they are bad, or if it's a bad gimmick, coupled with poor execution. From their NXT time it seems their skills are there, but a copy of a copy of a copy beating nobodies in 15 seconds isn't going to go over.
   220. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 05, 2015 at 10:26 PM (#4873880)
Eh, I understand the story reasons for doing the mixed tag, but Alicia and Naomi are capable of having an actual quality singles match. Can't have that, can we? It's hard to get excited about a feud between Paige and Nikki when there's little chance of them getting a real shot to work.
   221. bigglou115 is not an Illuminati agent Posted: January 05, 2015 at 10:35 PM (#4873887)
The PG rules have made mixed tags pointless. It's basically two separate matches, why not bill it that way?
   222. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 05, 2015 at 11:13 PM (#4873918)
Stephanie was in fine form tonight. Weird place to end the show, though.
   223. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 05, 2015 at 11:24 PM (#4873924)
Not a fan of firing angles.
   224. SouthSideRyan Posted: January 05, 2015 at 11:37 PM (#4873933)
That was some classic heeling. Nice reaction from Cena as well.

Regarding mixed tags, it's always been that way. I don't need Jimmy Uso superkicking a woman.
   225. Mark Edward Posted: January 05, 2015 at 11:47 PM (#4873940)
I was sure HHH was going to give Ziggler, Ryback, and Rowan the first three spots in the Rumble, but instead they go with a firing angle, which is always lame.
   226. my email address is hashtag 57i66135 Posted: January 06, 2015 at 01:44 AM (#4873981)
The Ascension are so, so, so bad.
they should have just gone all the way and stolen 'total elimination' instead of just aping it. it's been 20 years since kronus and saturn had a legit run, so it'd actually be more of an homage than outright theft. and even being 20 years old, it looks a hell of a lot better than what they do.
Seems like a prime opportunity for a cash in, too. Lesnar can drop the belt without taking the pin. Cena can pin Rollins, Lesnar beats down Cena, Rollins cashes in. That heads perfectly into my preferred Reigns-Lesnar, Bryan-Rollins scenario.
again, that's what punk was talking about. you're making 2 top guys and your #1 title look like #### to service a guy who works 20 nights a year and is looking for a way to get out of the business. again.

   227. bigglou115 is not an Illuminati agent Posted: January 06, 2015 at 01:56 AM (#4873984)
@224, really? I swear I've seen mixed tags were same gender wasn't enforced. I'm not saying they should change it back, I'm just saying that they shouldn't do mixed tags.
   228. SouthSideRyan Posted: January 06, 2015 at 02:57 AM (#4873991)
Yeah, I'd be fine to never see a mixed tag again. There may have been a small interaction between Sable and Mero, but that was more a rocket launcher type move where Edge set her up on him. Can't recall any other example of man vs. woman in an actual match(Non-Chyna division, ugh) other than Dink and Luna at WMX which was a whole different ###########.
   229. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 06, 2015 at 07:42 AM (#4874004)
[228] Mixed tags with no gender enforcement were definitely a thing in the Attitude/Ruthless Aggression eras.

Cena was great in the last segment. I just hate firing angles.

again, that's what punk was talking about. you're making 2 top guys and your #1 title look like #### to service a guy who works 20 nights a year and is looking for a way to get out of the business. again.

I disagree. They're doing everything they can to make Brock as big a monster as possible for when Roman, the anointed new top guy, goes over at Mania. Gotta make Roman look strong. So...it was the other thing Punk was saying.
   230. aberg Posted: January 06, 2015 at 12:05 PM (#4874216)
I think there are two ways this firing angle works a little better than some. First, Ziggler is so over that it will really mean something when he returns (imagine if he is the surprise 30th entrant in the Rumble because Vince rehired him). Second, I like that it was a firing aimed at someone who is still working there.
   231. bigglou115 is not an Illuminati agent Posted: January 06, 2015 at 12:12 PM (#4874224)
@228, I think Rock and Trish Stratus wrestled another mixed tag at one point in no gender on gender mixed tag. I'll look around a bit and see if I can find it. It was never common, but I think it happened more than a few times.
   232. SouthSideRyan Posted: January 06, 2015 at 12:14 PM (#4874227)
[228]Really? I checked out for all of RA, but I didn't remember any from the AE other than the brief Sable-Mero interaction. Mea Culpa.

I have seen a lot of hate elsewhere about how terrible firing angles are, but the last one they ran was one of the hottest angles of that year with the Dust brothers. Of course, look where it eventually wound up, but still.
   233. bigglou115 is not an Illuminati agent Posted: January 06, 2015 at 01:12 PM (#4874308)
Yeah, Rock and Trish v Dudley Boyz. Now, I didn't watch it but I'm guessing that since there was no female Dudley Boy, Trish was allowed to wrestle a male. If I remember correctly they power bombed her through a table, which has to count as a lowlight of the attitude era.
   234. Mark Edward Posted: January 06, 2015 at 01:39 PM (#4874348)
I think there are two ways this firing angle works a little better than some. First, Ziggler is so over that it will really mean something when he returns (imagine if he is the surprise 30th entrant in the Rumble because Vince rehired him).


Yay, more authority figures.

But seriously, the Philly crowd will be 100% behind Bryan at the Rumble. Ziggler coming in at 30 would get the same reaction as Rey Mysterio at last year's Rumble.

I'm betting Cena Overcomes The Odds and beats Big Show & Kane in a handicap match next week to get their jobs back.

I think the Rhodes' firing angle worked because the Rhodes' family knows how to work an angle (Cody & Dusty cut great promos during that angle). And the blowoff match was fantastic (Cody/Goldust v. Rollins/Reigns IIRC); I don't think anyone would be excited to see a Harper/Big Show/Kane-Rowan/Ziggler/Ryback match.
   235. Gch exhales the vast drunken folly of Epicurus Posted: January 06, 2015 at 06:38 PM (#4874774)
Can't recall any other example of man vs. woman in an actual match(Non-Chyna division, ugh) other than Dink and Luna at WMX which was a whole different ###########.


Assuming this just means mixed tags, there was Edge, Mick Foley, and Lita vs Tommy Dreamer, Terry Funk, and Beulah at One Night Stand. Match ended with Beulah trapped alone vs Edge, who speared her then pinned her in suggestive fashion while the ref acted disgusted.

There's also stuff like Beth Phoenix and Kharma entering the Royal Rumble, and the Vince vs Steph I Quit match.
   236. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 06, 2015 at 06:58 PM (#4874787)
Turning Ryback from forgotten musclehead space filler to THE #1 Survivor Series wild card free agent to inspirational comeback story to unjustly terminated victim in approximately six weeks, along with a new nickname that nobody cares about, is why WWE Creative is the twelfth circle of hell. No planning, no patience.

WWE Writer: Boss, I have a joke. Knock, k--
Vince McMahon: WHO'STHERERATINGSWEREDOWNHALFAPERCENTLASTWEEKBRINGBACKHUNTER
   237. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: January 06, 2015 at 08:14 PM (#4874819)
I think the Rhodes' firing angle worked because the Rhodes' family knows how to work an angle (Cody & Dusty cut great promos during that angle).

I got goosebumps when Cody said in his post-firing interview that the Rhodes family "knows all about hard times."
   238. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 06, 2015 at 09:14 PM (#4874849)
Apparently Paige and Nikki got 15 minutes to work on Main Event tonight. I guess complaining into the ether works sometimes?
   239. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 06, 2015 at 10:54 PM (#4874887)
Is there still a place to watch Wrestlekingdom 9?
   240. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 07, 2015 at 10:13 AM (#4875003)
[238] Just watched thanks to you heads up. Great match. Nikki is easily one of the top heels on the entire roster for me. Her heel ring-presence is off the charts. Great work from both women even though I find Paige confusing because I don't know whether she's a face or heel right now.
   241. Man o' Schwar Posted: January 08, 2015 at 11:49 AM (#4875913)
Speaking of mixed matches, I clearly remember a RAW match where it was Jericho and Christian vs. Trish and Lita. And there was plenty of male/female in-ring interaction during that period - Bubba Ray putting Trish through a table, Jericho putting Stacy Kiebler in the Walls while Test was handcuffed to the ropes, watching, etc. It was certainly not taboo as it is now.

I don't see them bringing it back any time soon, unless they ditch the PG rating and decide to try to go all the way in that direction again. It would be a much tougher sell in this climate, with the focus on domestic abuse, than it was 10-15 years ago.
   242. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 08, 2015 at 02:05 PM (#4876096)
Let's all offer our congratulations to Prince Puma for his outstanding performance in surviving Aztec Warfare and winning the first Lucha Underground championship. He's a fantastic talent, but boy, I would not want to be in his shoes once Catrina recovers and Mil Muertes comes looking for him.
   243. aberg Posted: January 08, 2015 at 03:34 PM (#4876194)
Spoiler alert on last night's Impact...

I can't believe that TNA went through this whole ordeal and came out doing the exact same thing that made them crap in the first place. They lost their TV deal because the product (in part) became so eroded and incoherent from constant swerves and turns to try to get a cheap pop. The first episode of the re-launch was extremely promising- good Aries-Low Ki match, return of Awesome Kong, James Storm doing a better version of the Bray Wyatt character- then they do a completely unnecessary and short-sighted swerve. During a very strong Lashley-Roode title match, MVP and Kenny King brought out two masked men, who ended up being Samoa Joe and Low Ki. Eric Young teased saving Roode then turned on him to cost him the title. How many times can Joe pointlessly turn? Why ever put him in a group? Why would we care about any of these guys when they oscillate between face and heel every six months?
   244. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 08, 2015 at 04:03 PM (#4876232)
TNA is a waste of your time. All the cool kids will be watching Lucha Underground. TNA is a bland canned vanilla pudding. Lucha Underground is a succulent flan.
   245. aberg Posted: January 08, 2015 at 04:05 PM (#4876237)
TNA is a waste of your time. All the cool kids will be watching Lucha Underground. TNA is a bland canned vanilla pudding. Lucha Underground is a succulent flan.


I watch everything. I'm just behind on LU right now after a trip to actual Mexico, aka Lucha Aboveground.
   246. Man o' Schwar Posted: January 08, 2015 at 05:40 PM (#4876363)
I can't believe that TNA went through this whole ordeal and came out doing the exact same thing that made them crap in the first place.

I had the same thought. The start was pretty good - the brawl, all titles up for grabs. Kong coming back was awesome, and the Kong/Havoc matches should be great. But then they get to the main event, and it's the same kind of overbooked nonsense that they're famous for. Nothing lets the air out of a crowd more than 15-20 minutes of back and forth followed up by ref bumps, run-ins, and "shocking" swerves to deprive the match of an actual finish.

This was their shot to show that they understood why people stopped watching before, and I still don't think they get it. Great, there's a new faction to replace one of the old factions, and we'll spend 6 months watching them ruin stuff until they shockingly turn on each other, and then there will be new factions to mess with new storylines. Ugh and pass.
   247. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 08, 2015 at 06:04 PM (#4876393)
Wow, Booker T is permanently replacing Lawler on Raw.
   248. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 08, 2015 at 07:16 PM (#4876445)
I watch everything. I'm just behind on LU right now after a trip to actual Mexico, aka Lucha Aboveground.


Cool, did you get to a show? What are the promotions down there now, anyways? I never cared for the pure lucha, I grew up watching it on Galavision in Miami but it never captured my imagination like the regional NWA shows did.
   249. aberg Posted: January 08, 2015 at 07:26 PM (#4876450)
Cool, did you get to a show? What are the promotions down there now, anyways? I never cared for the pure lucha, I grew up watching it on Galavision in Miami but it never captured my imagination like the regional NWA shows did.


I did not. From what I can tell, CMLL and AAA are the two biggest promotions in the country. I did manage to stumble my way through a few conversations about wrestling in Spanish, but it wasn't pretty.
   250. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 08, 2015 at 08:33 PM (#4876486)
"So, how about that El Santo! He's muy bueno, amirite?"
   251. Mark Edward Posted: January 10, 2015 at 03:15 PM (#4877629)
Sin Cara beat newly-crowned IC champ Wade Barrett in 2 minutes on Smackdown. Makes sense.
   252. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 10, 2015 at 08:41 PM (#4877843)
Watching Survivor Series 2009. Team Kofi Kingston comes out to face Team Randy Orton. The pre match package included a brawl at MSG between Kofi and Orton where Kofi got what sounded like some huge pops as he beat Orton all over the arena. The match ends with Kingston vs Orton and Punk and Kingston scoring a roll up pin fall over Punk and then immediately hitting Orton with the SOS for the pin. Kingston gets another big pop. Judging by what happened with Jeff Hardy around this time in '08, I assume Kofi is about to be elevated to World Title contender...right?
   253. my email address is hashtag 57i66135 Posted: January 10, 2015 at 09:42 PM (#4877874)
wrong thread.
   254. aberg Posted: January 12, 2015 at 12:53 PM (#4879111)
Watching Survivor Series 2009. Team Kofi Kingston comes out to face Team Randy Orton. The pre match package included a brawl at MSG between Kofi and Orton where Kofi got what sounded like some huge pops as he beat Orton all over the arena. The match ends with Kingston vs Orton and Punk and Kingston scoring a roll up pin fall over Punk and then immediately hitting Orton with the SOS for the pin. Kingston gets another big pop. Judging by what happened with Jeff Hardy around this time in '08, I assume Kofi is about to be elevated to World Title contender...right?


That was right around the time that Kofi got a great reaction for destroying a custom-made Randy Orton Nascar and doing a leg drop off of an entry gate at (I think) MSG. That was undoubtedly the best run of Kofi's career. It seemed like he was going to eventually get a big singles pin over Orton, but then Orton turned face and wrestled Rhodes/Dibiase at Wrestlemania and Kofi was in the lurch. I think his popularity and success against Orton was a surprise to the writers and they failed to adapt in a way that could preserve whatever the long-term plan for Orton was. He never got that popular again.
   255. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 12, 2015 at 02:11 PM (#4879184)
It seemed like he was going to eventually get a big singles pin over Orton, but then Orton turned face and wrestled Rhodes/Dibiase at Wrestlemania and Kofi was in the lurch.

I knew Orton turned face at some point. Didn't think that's how it would happen. I'm watching Batista vs. Undertaker (WC) at TLC 2009 right now, Kofi vs Orton is the next match. Undertaker and Batista are in a Chairs match. I don't know if the rules changed over time, but Matt Striker explained that while chairs are legal in this match, other weapons are not. IIRC, this point was never made during TLC 2014, which is (part of) why the Chairs and Stairs matches there seemed so stupid to me.
   256. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 12, 2015 at 03:08 PM (#4879232)
I'm going through watching the PPV matches of specific guys, starting with Daniel Bryan. I've watched from Summerslam 2010 through Elimination Chamber 2012, and I'm really curious as to where the perception that WWE didn't like the guy came from. He's only lost one of those matches, beaten multiple former or future world champs along the way, and pretty much had one belt or another the entire time. Even in the triple threat against Show and Henry he's booked like he actually belongs there. Chamber 2012 is the third of what turns out to be 8 consecutive PPVs where he's involved in a world title match. Even before the Mania 28 debacle, he was put in a Raw match against champion Punk and doesn't lose. After Mania 28, even without the crowd revolt you have to think he gets the rematch against Sheamus and is a good candidate for the Punk feud after that. He does miss a few PPVs, though at least one of those (Mania 27) is known to be a last minute cut.

Is it something that came out more on TV (Cole's commentary on the PPVs could definitely get ridiculous if he does the same thing on two weekly shows)?

Best match of the group so far is against Ziggler at Bragging Rights 2010. Legitimately great match.

After watching the Summerslam 2011 match, I watched Punk-Cena from the same show. I've watched their MitB 2011 and Raw 2013 matches a few times each, but hadn't watched that one yet. Good match with a couple different screwy finishes. Cena does a few different things that I don't recall ever seeing from him before.
   257. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 12, 2015 at 08:35 PM (#4879517)
Ugh, that Cena-Rollins match fit pretty much all the negative Cena stereotypes.
   258. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 12, 2015 at 10:58 PM (#4879655)
Reigns' "Jack and the Beanstalk" promo was his 3rd straight dud.
   259. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 12, 2015 at 11:52 PM (#4879726)
They are over-scripting Reigns so much that I'm tempted to give them too much credit and think they are sabotaging him on purpose so that he can organically get even more over later. Basically trying for an intentional Rocky Maivia. I don't recall the cartoon and fairy tale references happening before Bryan re-appeared as a viable Plan B for this year, and Steph's promo during the Bryan segment showed that they might just understand exactly why he's so popular.

Or maybe Vince really does think turning Reigns into Cena 2.0 is the right way to do it. The crowd was actively cheering for Harper tonight, so (surprise!) I don't think it's working. Too bad, because the ring work from Reigns has improved a bit these past few weeks. Even the Big Show match wasn't bad for a Big Show match.
   260. aberg Posted: January 13, 2015 at 12:21 AM (#4879755)
The only thing that gives me any hope for Reigns on the mic is listening to Bryan, who has gone from very poor to outstanding due to many, many reps.
   261. aberg Posted: January 13, 2015 at 02:54 PM (#4880119)
I mentioned recently that we were working on a more robust site for our wrestling blog. It is set up and ready to view now. Here is the main page and my Raw Review for this week:

Main Page

Raw Review

Any help in spreading those links around is much appreciated if you enjoy reading it.
   262. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 13, 2015 at 03:54 PM (#4880179)
   263. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 13, 2015 at 03:59 PM (#4880185)
[261] Congrats on the new site. I'm going to have to bookmark it, but I would also encourage you to post links to your stuff here as I like reading what you have to say.
   264. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 18, 2015 at 09:27 PM (#4883640)
Halfway through WM XXVI

1. Were people upset that HHH beat Sheamus clean? I'm not sure why you would have Sheamus win the title at TLC to end '09, retain the title by beating Randy Orton at RR '10, then drop the title in an Elimination Chamber match, clean, to a HHH pedigree...and then lose to HHH clean, again. By having him beat your "young" (Cena, Orton) guys so early and on such a big stage it screams this guy is legit and we have faith in him...but only for you to put over a really old guy (HHH) against him for two consecutive months? It's even more confusing given that the pre-match video package was about how everyone HHH faces at WM either becomes a legend by beating him or becomes nothing/a footnote by losing to him. So...you're promoting the idea that Sheamus is now a footnote rather than putting him over as OMG HE BEAT HHH? Not a Sheamus fan, but this just doesn't make much sense to me.

2. CM Punk was eliminated early on in the Rumble and he was eliminated early in Elimination Chamber and he lost to Rey ####### Mysterio in a short match at WM XXVI, but...I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Straight Edge Society. Bearded/Hairy Chest Punk is a great look and I find myself completely captivated anytime as he conducts pre and during match promos on the mic. It would be nice to see him win a match.

3. 10 seems like...at least 4 guys too many for a ladder match. MITB match at WM XXVI was the least interesting yet. Also, Jack Swagger? Seriously?
   265. my email address is hashtag 57i66135 Posted: January 19, 2015 at 02:32 AM (#4883744)
2. CM Punk was eliminated early on in the Rumble and he was eliminated early in Elimination Chamber and he lost to Rey ####### Mysterio in a short match at WM XXVI, but...I LOVE LOVE LOVE the Straight Edge Society. Bearded/Hairy Chest Punk is a great look and I find myself completely captivated anytime as he conducts pre and during match promos on the mic. It would be nice to see him win a match.
that must have been the year that punk grabbed a mic and started talking every time he cleared the ring in the rumble.

and yes, bearded hairy chest punk is a great look. especially since it was during the baby oil boys era, where everyone wore panties, shaved their entire body and slathered themselves in baby oil. it was not a good look to begin with, but the fact that everyone on the roster (except cena, who was allowed to wear jorts...and zack ryder, who was allowed to wear this...ew) looked exactly the same went a long way to making the era (say, from benoit to MITB 2011) one of the least interesting in my lifetime.

It's even more confusing given that the pre-match video package was about how everyone HHH faces at WM either becomes a legend by beating him or becomes nothing/a footnote by losing to him. So...you're promoting the idea that Sheamus is now a footnote rather than putting him over as OMG HE BEAT HHH? Not a Sheamus fan, but this just doesn't make much sense to me.
that's pretty much what happened to sheamus. if anything you should give them props for telling you exactly what was going to happen.

also, i'd guess this means reigns will lose to HHH at WM this year.
   266. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 19, 2015 at 06:07 AM (#4883751)
that must have been the year that punk grabbed a mic and started talking every time he cleared the ring in the rumble.

Yep. I was in my living room audibly laughing as this happened. It was so good.

and zack ryder, who was allowed to wear this...ew)

I saw Zack Ryder for the first time at the Rumble and I thought there was some kind of a playback issue with my PS4. I couldn't fathom that he purposefully dressed like that.
   267. Chokeland Bill Posted: January 19, 2015 at 08:23 PM (#4884239)
Gee, I wonder who's going to win the "Cena's title shot vs bringing Ziggler/Ryback/Rowan back" match.
   268. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 19, 2015 at 08:25 PM (#4884241)
[267] Cena's going to lose and then Brock is going to retain at RR followed by Cena and Bryan tieing at the Rumble and setting up Brock-Cena-Bryan WM main event.
   269. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 19, 2015 at 11:07 PM (#4884306)
Ending of RAW was orgasmic.
   270. SouthSideRyan Posted: January 19, 2015 at 11:27 PM (#4884319)
They surprised me, I expected at least one of the fired guys if not all of them to provide the distraction interference to help secure the win.
   271. Mark Edward Posted: January 20, 2015 at 01:33 AM (#4884358)
Ending of RAW was orgasmic.


Brock killing everybody was kinda cool but the Distracted Roll Up finish is the worst wrestling trope in recent memory.

And of course Rollins took the pin. Gotta protect Big Show and Kane.
   272. SouthSideRyan Posted: January 20, 2015 at 01:35 AM (#4884360)
Nobody gets hurt by a roll-up pin. Rolling up the 210 pound guy makes a lot more sense than rolling up the 450 or 320 pound guy.
   273. Mark Edward Posted: January 20, 2015 at 02:01 AM (#4884361)
I was more complaining about the Distracted Roll Up Finish, as it makes everyone look like a dumbass.

But Cena's a big, strong dude. It's not inconceivable that he can roll up a guy like Kane. He's Overcome much greater Odds in the past.
   274. SouthSideRyan Posted: January 20, 2015 at 09:43 AM (#4884421)
Schoolboys on tall guys just look terrible. Nobody's thinking man, Rollins is such a mid-carder, he lost on a distracted roll-up. It makes a hell of a lot more sense for the pinfall to come on the guy who's facing Cena on Sunday than the big oafs nobody gives a #### about. Let them be the fodder for feats of strength.
   275. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: January 20, 2015 at 10:43 AM (#4884462)
With all the storyline/creative problems I have with WWE right now, I've gotta say...they're using Sting perfectly. There was a fair amount of IWC grumbling about "Why didn't Sting open the post-Survivor Series Raw and talk for 15 minutes?" But less is so much, much more with Sting right now.
   276. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: January 20, 2015 at 10:51 AM (#4884465)
Brock killing everybody was kinda cool but the Distracted Roll Up finish is the worst wrestling trope in recent memory.

I hate it that they took a step backward from Rollins being uncowed by Brock last week. It took me back to Punk smirking when the bell tolled and the lights went down for 'Taker's entrance...which was fantastic.
   277. Monty Posted: January 20, 2015 at 12:36 PM (#4884544)
But less is so much, much more with Sting right now.


It always has been. I think the peak of his popularity was when he was just hiding out in the rafters.
   278. bigglou115 is not an Illuminati agent Posted: January 20, 2015 at 01:17 PM (#4884575)
@277 Definitely. The second Sting chose to side with the Wolfpack he immediately became irrelevant. Part of that was that the NWO had grown just way too much, but at the same time it took away the mystery. Sting's best gimmick is the mysterious stranger who rides in without warning to mess up the big bad's day.
   279. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 20, 2015 at 02:46 PM (#4884664)
@277 Definitely. The second Sting chose to side with the Wolfpack he immediately became irrelevant.


No, the second he allowed Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff to waste his long-anticipated return to the ring at Starcade 97 on anything but a clean and dominant win in the middle of the ring, all of the excitement and buildup in his character dissipated like air from a leaky balloon. Hogan beat him cleanly in the middle of the ring, no question. You can't recover from that in Sting's situation. He wasn't the black avenger, he was just another stooge to get beaten by Hogan.
   280. Conor Posted: January 20, 2015 at 03:27 PM (#4884708)
No, the second he allowed Hulk Hogan and Eric Bischoff to waste his long-anticipated return to the ring at Starcade 97 on anything but a clean and dominant win in the middle of the ring, all of the excitement and buildup in his character dissipated like air from a leaky balloon. Hogan beat him cleanly in the middle of the ring, no question. You can't recover from that in Sting's situation. He wasn't the black avenger, he was just another stooge to get beaten by Hogan.


This was one of the first shows I watched when I got the network. It's just such a bad show, and the main event caps it off "perfectly". Heel wins up and down the card. And it probably all would have been saved if Sting had gone over Hogan clean.

Very excited to go to the rumble Sunday, anyone else going? Making the trip down from NYC
   281. SouthSideRyan Posted: January 20, 2015 at 03:29 PM (#4884709)
[279]Worst booking in wrestling history? I think I'd slot it ahead of the Invasion.
   282. Conor Posted: January 20, 2015 at 03:52 PM (#4884727)
It was probably the worst single booking decision, but they did such a great job building it up (which makes the payoff worse, probably). The Invasion was pretty much botched from start to finish.
   283. Monty Posted: January 20, 2015 at 04:04 PM (#4884740)
In the category of "worst booking in wrestling history," I think I'd put forth that time that WCW decided to end Goldberg's winning streak by having Scott Hall hit him with a cattle prod. Same effect as the Sting/Hogan match: take a guy who's incredibly over and just kill all his heat for no reason.
   284. SouthSideRyan Posted: January 20, 2015 at 04:53 PM (#4884794)
Problem is, Goldberg's first loss was gonna have to be a ########### no matter what.

I guess I'd agree with you Conor, as the build to Hogan-Sting was phenomenal. Though I did like the first month or so of the Invasion, and then Bagwell/Booker happened, they turned the whole group heel, put ECW on the same level as them, culminating in a PPV where the only people to win from "The Alliance" had been with WWF for years, and 1 WCW wrestler featured in a 10 man tag main event.

Oh and then Ric Flair debuted the next night.

Just awe-inspiring.
   285. Conor Posted: January 20, 2015 at 07:05 PM (#4884924)
I guess I'd agree with you Conor, as the build to Hogan-Sting was phenomenal. Though I did like the first month or so of the Invasion, and then Bagwell/Booker happened, they turned the whole group heel, put ECW on the same level as them, culminating in a PPV where the only people to win from "The Alliance" had been with WWF for years, and 1 WCW wrestler featured in a 10 man tag main event


It's been a while, the invasion started with Booker T attacking Austin at King of the Ring? if so, agreed that is a pretty good start. That was the same night that Taker completely destroyed DDP if I recall.
The best thing I think I remember from the invasion is the promo Heyman cut right before the survivor series main event. Incredible
   286. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 20, 2015 at 07:51 PM (#4884939)
Is it weird that I almost don't want to continue watching these PPVs because I feel like I'm counting down to CM Punk no longer being around?
   287. aberg Posted: January 20, 2015 at 07:52 PM (#4884940)
To me, the biggest problem with the Invasion was that they didn't have a lot of the top guys. If they wanted to do a WCW invasion, it had to be led by some combination of Flair, Sting, and Goldberg. Nobody else could be the leader. Even the nWo guys would have to be a separate nWo stable.

When they did do the nWo thing it had the same problem as the WCW Invasion- there was no reason to think the WWF/E mainstays were going to actually lose anything. So what if Booker T or DDP does well? Is Austin or Rock going to lose his job? Of course not.
   288. Conor Posted: January 20, 2015 at 08:44 PM (#4884957)
Agreed on the invasion. The incredible thing is that the Invasion PPV was one of their biggest ppv's ever; it might be the #1 non Mania PPV ever. And that was without the top guys; so the people were obviously dying for this angle. They probably could have gone the way they did, and then after a few months, bring in Flair, Goldberg, Sting, etc. The whole invasion thing probably should have ended with Austin beating Goldberg at Mania 19. I think they could have stretched it out that far.

Is it weird that I almost don't want to continue watching these PPVs because I feel like I'm counting down to CM Punk no longer being around?


Where are you now? Money in the Bank 11 is an all timer.
   289. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 20, 2015 at 09:50 PM (#4884980)
Just finished WM XXVI. Edge vs Jericho was good and Taker vs HBK II was amazing. I actually enjoyed this match more than their XXV encounter.

EDIT: At the time did people realize Shawn was retiring?
   290. Conor Posted: January 20, 2015 at 09:57 PM (#4884983)
I think everyone figured Shawn would eventually come back for a match (which is theoretically still possible) but I think it was thought at the time he'd at least be gone for a long while.
   291. aberg Posted: January 21, 2015 at 12:07 AM (#4885045)
I had really good seats at WM XXVI. That Taker-HBK match is the best match I've ever seen live.

I have similarly good seats this year in SF, so here's hoping someone matches or exceeds it.
   292. NJ in NY (Now with Big Girl!) Posted: January 21, 2015 at 12:13 AM (#4885049)
[291] So jealous. I'm going to try and find my way to 32. I've never been to any live event.
   293. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 21, 2015 at 01:41 AM (#4885060)
More bad booking:

WWE missed a unique opportunity when CM Punk's contract "lapsed" and he "walked out with the title." Then he missed a whole one episode of Raw before "returning." How they couldn't let that one run a month and a half or two months is baffling. You keep showing Punk on Raw via news clips, showing up at events and media appearances with his belt. You strip him of the title after 30 days and crown a new champion. You have remote segments where Punk and Heyman mock the replacement. And when he comes back, you have a much-anticipated unification storyline. It's laughably easy to script, and it was asinine that WWE couldn't see it.

Eric Bischoff live on WCW Monday Nitro, dismissively "spoiling" Mick Foley's first title win on the competing prerecorded episode of Raw, then seeing his Nitro audience instantly hemorrhage over to go watch Foley.

WCW blowing off millions of dollars by throwing Goldberg's first title win over Hogan onto Nitro, with just 4 days' notice, instead of promoting it on a pay-per-view.

McMahon continuing the Over the Edge pay-per-view after Owen Hart's death.

Ric Flair comes to WWF in 1991, but the announcers make it clear that Flair is a "self-proclaimed" champion only, and he ends up having zero PPV matches with Hulk Hogan. Basically a dry run for the "WCW Invasion" fiasco.

Vince Sr. pulling the WWWF belt off Superstar Billy Graham at the height of his rising popularity, just because the title change had already been scheduled more than a year in advance.
   294. aberg Posted: January 21, 2015 at 11:35 AM (#4885221)
Let me add a few...

Verne Gagne keeping the belt on Nick Bockwinkel to effectively drive Hogan back to WWF just as his popularity was hitting its stride.

NWA driving Vince Sr. away over the Thesz vs. Sammartino power struggle.

Pedro Morales ever being the champion.
   295. Monty Posted: January 21, 2015 at 11:53 AM (#4885238)
David Arquette, WCW champion. You know, because it tied in to the movie Ready to Rumble. There's probably a whole category of "Misguided tie-in" decisions, what with Chucky and the KISS Demon.
   296. aberg Posted: January 21, 2015 at 12:48 PM (#4885298)
David Arquette, WCW champion. You know, because it tied in to the movie Ready to Rumble. There's probably a whole category of "Misguided tie-in" decisions, what with Chucky and the KISS Demon.


Zeus, Robocop, K-Fed.
   297. smileyy Posted: January 21, 2015 at 01:49 PM (#4885361)
My two live events have been:

* A WWE house show ca. 1995, without Stone Cold Steve Austin, and without a single move off of the top rope
* The Sting/Hogan Starrcade

I do not have a good track record with live events.
   298. smileyy Posted: January 21, 2015 at 01:50 PM (#4885364)

Ric Flair comes to WWF in 1991, but the announcers make it clear that Flair is a "self-proclaimed" champion only, and he ends up having zero PPV matches with Hulk Hogan. Basically a dry run for the "WCW Invasion" fiasco.


So, how much good booking has Hogan managed to be a part of?
   299. Monty Posted: January 21, 2015 at 02:15 PM (#4885382)
I was at WrestleMania XIX in Seattle (2003, Angle/Lesnar), but I had terrible seats. On paper, "Floor seats, 25-30 rows back" sounded great, but I couldn't actually see anything going on in the ring. On the other hand, WCW Spring Stampede in Tacoma (1999, Flair/Page/Hogan/Sting) was a lot of fun. Plenty of Cruiserweight action to balance off the dopey main event.
   300. Conor Posted: January 21, 2015 at 02:21 PM (#4885387)
So, how much good booking has Hogan managed to be a part of?


Hey, he usually comes out looking pretty good.

I was reading the Death of WCW and they mentioned Arquette didn't want to win the title (smart) and tried to refuse it, but they made him. I've always wondered how they could have "made him" win the title.
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