Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, October 27, 2014

OT: Wrestling Thread November 2014

Given that the old wrestling thread got shut down, here is a new one that shamelessly links to my Hell in a Cell review!

aberg Posted: October 27, 2014 at 01:47 PM | 2228 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: wrestling

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

Page 23 of 23 pages ‹ First  < 21 22 23
   2201. aberg Posted: April 10, 2018 at 01:53 PM (#5650866)
And the IWC is wrong yet again about what they know to be true with Reigns


I was at the show and I disagree with this summary. There are several things that went into the fan reaction to the main event. I think the biggest part is that it came about 6:45 into the show, which is exhausting. Keep in mind that a huge chunk of the fans were drinking on Bourbon St at 10am, so they were about 13 hours into it at that point. WWE knows this. On top of that, they built this match by dumping on Brock, not building Roman. They called him a "part time b****," scripted no-shows, and got Dana White to tell everyone he was leaving WWE. They already knew that these 80k tired, drunk fans dislike Roman, and they turned them all against Brock. What are the fans supposed to do in that situation? I don't even hate Roman, but I definitely resent that WWE keeps doing the exact same thing with him over and over despite the dissatisfaction.

My highlights for the night:
-Great booking and impressive work in Ronda match (though you guys are right that Kurt is cooked).
-IC title match was very fun, hot way to kick off with a good finish.
-Thought Asuka-Charlotte was the match of the night. Charlotte always delivers in big moments.
-It was the most impressive WM stage and AV set-up I have ever seen. My wife works in events and couldn't believe what they put together for one night.
-Nakamura heel turn was well executed, even if the match didn't reach the heights we hoped for.

Letdowns:
-Show needs to be shorter. Nobody makes 7 hour movies. Keep the show to 3.5 hrs + 1hr pre-show, max.
-SD Tag match turned into a throw-away. Why put it on the show if that's what you're going to do with it? (if the question is how to get to that time, I'd cut both battle royals, the CW title match, one tag title match, one women's title match, the HOF recap. I'd move the US-title to the preshow, shorten the entrances significantly, shorten the Universal title match).
-I didn't really get the Taker-Cena thing, but I assume there will be more to come down the road.


We also went to the ROH show the night before. The Omega-Cody match was really good, and this is coming from someone who hasn't been that high on Cody's indy work. Ibushi-Hangman was also phenomenal. I liked the Bucks/Flip Gordon vs. Daniels/Kaz/Other guy spot fest. That show also had about 3 matches too many. Plus, they had problems with their streaming service and one point and had Bubba Dudley kill about 25 minutes on the mic. Ugh. Still very fun overall.
   2202. Man o' Schwar Posted: April 10, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5650915)
I don't even hate Roman, but I definitely resent that WWE keeps doing the exact same thing with him over and over despite the dissatisfaction.

It didn't help things that he kept kicking out of F5s. Do it once, that's fine - WWE spams finishers now anyway. But after #3, #4, #5... it became utterly ridiculous. It was not surprising that the crowd turned on the match. I agree 100% that the length of the show was at least half the problem - I was exhausted just sitting at home after watching so much wrestling, and I was able to take breaks along the way. I wanted the show just to be over at that point, and the ridiculous kickouts were just disheartening - like someone pin someone already, I don't even care who at this point.

The match had none of the excitement of their previous WM match (which also came at the end of the card, but I think that card was an hour shorter). It just felt like a slog in front of a bunch of people who couldn't care less about it. People barely even reacted to any of the big moves, and instead chanted about how awful it was.
   2203. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: April 10, 2018 at 03:10 PM (#5650956)
His upside is Batista,
nope
   2204. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: April 10, 2018 at 03:23 PM (#5650972)
-SD Tag match turned into a throw-away. Why put it on the show if that's what you're going to do with it? (if the question is how to get to that time, I'd cut both battle royals, the CW title match, one tag title match, one women's title match, the HOF recap. I'd move the US-title to the preshow, shorten the entrances significantly, shorten the Universal title match).

instead of cutting champions out of the show, why not have some champion vs. champion matchups
IC champ v. US champ (v. nxt champ?)
womens SD champ v. raw champ
tag team v. tag team

that should get you 3 great matches while strengthening the rest of the card and raising the importance of being a title holder.

you'd still have at least 8 matches:
universal title
WWE title
tag team v. tag team
woman v. woman
IC v. US
battle royale
womens battle royale
gimmick match
undertaker
   2205. aberg Posted: April 10, 2018 at 03:59 PM (#5651012)
instead of cutting champions out of the show, why not have some champion vs. champion matchups


I'm not crazy about those types of matches because it's harder to make it feel high stakes. One thing WWE has done better in recent years is making sure that the Mania matches have stakes- either a title with a reasonable chance that it changes hands, the culmination of a personal issue, or some other stipulation. Having something attached to the result makes most fans more interested and it would be harder to do that under a champion vs champion format.
   2206. f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135 Posted: April 10, 2018 at 04:14 PM (#5651029)
I'm not crazy about those types of matches because it's harder to make it feel high stakes. One thing WWE has done better in recent years is making sure that the Mania matches have stakes- either a title with a reasonable chance that it changes hands, the culmination of a personal issue, or some other stipulation. Having something attached to the result makes most fans more interested and it would be harder to do that under a champion vs champion format.

maybe strip the losers of their titles? then you could spend the next month building up to a king of the ring PPV?

maybe give the IC/US match winner a MITB style title shot?

let the winner of the women's match wax rusev's chest?


personally, i like the pure competition aspect of it. leave the stakes for the important matches; just use these wrestlers to put on a great show.
   2207. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 10, 2018 at 08:10 PM (#5651167)
Well, Smackdown is bringing the heat rather quickly.
   2208. aberg Posted: April 11, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5651406)
Well, Smackdown is bringing the heat rather quickly.


Both the opening and closing segments of SD (which added up to at least 1/4 of the total show) got me very excited. The cash-in was also executed well, even though I'm not big on the Iconic Duo.
   2209. KronicFatigue Posted: April 11, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5651441)
Anyone watch the HBO documentary on Andre? I thought it was decent, but a bit of a letdown. It did a good job of humanizing him, but didn't tell me anything I already didn't know. And, to be honest, I could have used more of the crazy stories of life with him on the road.

I've always had a big issue with Hogan claiming he wasn't sure how WMIII was going to go. In the past, I've heard him give interviews where he said he was worried Andre was going to shoot on him, and there would have been nothing he could have done to stop it. That was furthered in this doc, confirmed by Vince and some others. Their version has it more of a practical joke on Andre's part, wanting to scare Hogan for shits and giggles.

Hogan said the NIGHT BEFORE the match, Vince asked him what he was thinking about. Hogan then wrote down on a legal pad beat for beat the match, except the ending, which he left open. The documentary showed a legal pad but I have no idea if that was dramatized for affect. Hogan then said he tried to talk to Andre at WM in the lockerroom, but Andre just kept playing cards and would neither confirm nor deny anything.

Fast forward to the match, and Andre starts doing what Hogan scripted. Then towards the end he calls for "slam" (hogan slams him in the iconic moment) and "leg drop". Hogan claims that even after the leg drop he presumed Andre would kick out.

NONE of this rings true. Feels like one last kayfabe BS story to keep the myth going. This was the biggest wrestling match of all time, both financially and in terms of story telling. There's just no way that Vince would let Andre just wing it for a practical joke. The idea that Andre could just shoot and win and effectively end Hulkamania, the graviest of gravy trains, seems absurd on its face.
   2210. aberg Posted: April 11, 2018 at 12:26 PM (#5651452)
NONE of this rings true. Feels like one last kayfabe BS story to keep the myth going.


Yeah, that's my take on it, too. I think that Hogan is always working. This version of the story is more dramatic, so it serves him to tell the story this way. Hogan spanned eras from die-hard kayfabe to the start of a shoot-based story era, but he was always in kayfabe. The guy wore his bandana in court, ffs.
   2211. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 11, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5651507)
Wrestling would have been better place if Iron Sheik broke Hogan's leg in MSG like Verne Gagne asked him to.
   2212. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: April 11, 2018 at 03:28 PM (#5651573)
I haven’t seen the Andre documentary yet but I felt Hogan was disingenuous or at least rewriting history during Flair’s 30 for 30 when he said he knew Flair was better. Hogan definitely helped hold Flair down during the NWO years and helped make the Horseman insignificant
   2213. KronicFatigue Posted: April 11, 2018 at 05:19 PM (#5651706)
What's the conventional wisdom on Hogan vs Flair? Obviously Flair's the better wrestler, but I'm not sure who the better performer was. If you switch their territories, does Flair become as mainstream as Hogan became?
   2214. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 11, 2018 at 06:11 PM (#5651740)
Hogan was more charismatic but Flair was better at most everything else (though Hogan was holding back in WWF compared to what he did in Japan). I don't think Flair would have been as successful as Hogan in WWF. He didn't have the cartoon look and feel that 80s WWF was about. Hogan and Flair were basically the optimal guys for their respective promotions, with the caveat that Savage might have matched/surpassed Hogan with an equivalent push.
   2215. Man o' Schwar Posted: April 11, 2018 at 06:11 PM (#5651741)
Hogan definitely helped hold Flair down during the NWO years and helped make the Horseman insignificant

He also raised objections when Flair was in the WWE in the early 90s - they worked some house shows, but we never got the big Hogan/Flair PPV match that everyone was waiting for. Instead they worked around the periphery with each other, interfering in matches but never really paying it off. There were a lot of speculated reasons (beyond just Hogan's power backstage) for why it happened this way, but most of them revolve around Hogan in some way - Hogan was lying low because of the steroid investigations, Hogan was looking to take some time off and so didn't want to get involved in a big feud where he might not get his chance to win, etc. McMahon also questioned whether Flair's more serious, mat-based style would get over as well in the WWF territory that was dominated by bigger, more theatrical guys.

Plus, Hogan preferred to work a specific kind of match where he could be the underdog against a bigger, stronger wrestler. They could go 10-12 minutes of Hogan getting beat down, then Hulk up, finger point, boot, leg drop, Real American plays. Flair didn't fit that mold - he came up in the NWA system and liked to work matches that ran 30-60 minutes with less "cartoonish" stuff and more Southern-style wrestling. Their styles clashed terribly, and by all reports the matches they did have when Flair was in the WWF in the late 80s/early 90s were far from classics (which couldn't have made McMahon any less wary about putting them in the main event together).

I don't know that Hogan thought he was a superior wrestler to Flair so much as he thought wrestling Flair (and particularly losing to Flair) would hurt him more than help him in the long run. Hogan was always more at home taking on guys like Big John Studd, King Kong Bundy, Sid Vicious, Earthquake, Yokozuna, and of course Andre. He could just plug any generic big man like that into his match formula and get something that he knew would work. Losing to a smaller guy - even one generally recognized as one of the best in the world at that time - wasn't going to support the legacy he had created as the ultimate giant killer.
   2216. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 13, 2018 at 11:29 PM (#5653658)
Plus, Hogan preferred to work a specific kind of match where he could be the underdog against a bigger, stronger wrestler. They could go 10-12 minutes of Hogan getting beat down, then Hulk up, finger point, boot, leg drop, Real American plays. Flair didn't fit that mold - he came up in the NWA system and liked to work matches that ran 30-60 minutes with less "cartoonish" stuff and more Southern-style wrestling. Their styles clashed terribly, and by all reports the matches they did have when Flair was in the WWF in the late 80s/early 90s were far from classics (which couldn't have made McMahon any less wary about putting them in the main event together).


I saw them at a house show in Memphis during Flair's WWF run and it was exactly the same as their WCW matches when Hogan came to that promotion and demanded to remake it in his own image. Hogan gave Flair NOTHING. He no-sold everything but eye rakes and groin strikes, Flair bumped all over the ring, it was over in 9 minutes.

Hogan's egomania ruined wrestling for more than a decade. Ric Flair excelled at pretty much everything as a wrestler, but he was particularly skilled at carrying less-talented workers to great matches because he understood the psychology of wrestling and the particular strengths and limitations of each opponent. The extremely Hogan-esque lummox Lex Luger had the best matches of his career with Flair. All you had to do was let Flair call the match (which, as the heel, he would traditionally do) and everything would turn out great. Say what you want about Ric Flair, he did a better job putting people over than anyone in the business.

But that wouldn't make the Hulkster look strong brother!

Seriously, wrestling would have been in better shape in the 80s, and better shape now, if Iron Sheik really did break Hogan's leg in Madison Square Garden. Hogan somehow managed to make two major promotions unwatchable for anyone but dumb kids.
   2217. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 16, 2018 at 08:04 PM (#5654891)
Opening your Superstar Shakeup with Jinder Mahal is....not the way I would try to drive up interest in your show.
   2218. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 16, 2018 at 09:57 PM (#5654978)
WWE is really changing their ways. Instead of the new NXT call-up feuding with Dolph, he's teaming with Dolph.
   2219. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 16, 2018 at 10:19 PM (#5655011)
I don't know if being friends with Nattie is going to help keep Ronda over.
   2220. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 16, 2018 at 10:57 PM (#5655027)
So Raw gained almost no one of value besides KO and Sami. Drew, I guess. Smackdown got rid of Jinder, Corbin, Nattie, and Riott squad. Got Miz for the Bryan feud. Almost certainly getting Seth (or I guess maybe Jeff Hardy). Probably getting Sasha and Bayley as well (or Mickie and Alexa, but the latter is announced for a title rematch). One night in, one show is looking much better than the other.
   2221. aberg Posted: April 17, 2018 at 12:29 PM (#5655227)
So Raw gained almost no one of value besides KO and Sami. Drew, I guess. Smackdown got rid of Jinder, Corbin, Nattie, and Riott squad. Got Miz for the Bryan feud. Almost certainly getting Seth (or I guess maybe Jeff Hardy). Probably getting Sasha and Bayley as well (or Mickie and Alexa, but the latter is announced for a title rematch). One night in, one show is looking much better than the other.


This is the official full list from WWE:
1) Jinder Mahal
2) Ruby Riott
3) Sarah Logan
4) Liv Morgan
5) Kevin Owens
6) Sami Zayn
7) Zack Ryder
8) Fandango
9) Tyler Breeze
10) Natalya
11) Dolph Ziggler
12) Drew McIntyre
13) Baron Corbin
14) Konnor
15) Viktor
16 Bobby Roode
17) Mojo Rawley
18) Mike Kanellis
19) Chad Gable

Owens (and recently Zayn) has been on the upper part of the SD card. Roode, Ziggler, Corbin, and Jinder have been upper-mid and they seem to really like Roode and Corbin to keep ascending. I think McIntyre and Gable could both do really good things if given the opportunity. The rest of it looks mostly like jobber reshuffling in order to keep the lower part of the card fresh.

We'll see who else goes back from Raw to SD, but I doubt Reigns or Brock is going anywhere, so I doubt it will be all that unbalanced.
   2222. aberg Posted: April 17, 2018 at 02:57 PM (#5655359)
Here are my predictions about who goes to SD.

First, breaking down who went to Raw in categories

Top guys- Owens and Zayn
Upper-mid- Roode, Ziggler, Corbin, Jinder
Women- Natalya, Ruby, Logan, Morgan
Tags- Ascension, Fashion Police
Lower- Gable, Kanellis, Ryder, Mojo
Other- McIntyre

So the corresponding moves to SD

Top guy(s)- Miz, Rollins
Upper-mid- Elias, Big Cass
Women- Dana Brooke, Sasha
Tags- Titus Worldwide, Revival
Lower- R-Truth, Goldust, Curt Hawkins

I could see Finn moving instead of Rollins, in which case I would swap Gallows and Andrson for the Revival (still think they might want to keep the Balor Club thing available). I don't think Ambrose moves, even if he is healthy enough to return, because he has been hurt for a huge chunk of the time since he moved to Raw.


   2223. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 17, 2018 at 10:00 PM (#5655634)
Smackdown gets Jeff Hardy, Samoa Joe, Asuka, Almas, Sheamus & Cesaro, Anderson & Gallows, Sanity (Dain, Young, and Wolf), Big Cass, R-Truth, and Absolution. That seems like a big win for Smackdown.

However, Bryan is feuding with Big Cass? Ugh.
   2224. aberg Posted: April 18, 2018 at 11:30 AM (#5655894)
I was shockingly wrong about almost every one of my guesses. Oh well. Seems like they have stacked the SD tag division. I thought they might try to align guys to feud with a heel Nakamura, but with Joe, Almas, Cass, and Sanity, it seems more like they are lining up heels to feud with Styles or Bryan as the champ. I wonder if Nakamura will even get a passing title reign as the heel.

Cass is maybe my very last choice for guys I most want to see vs. Bryan.

There's still a chance that they flip-flop the secondary titles at GRR. Could have Joe as IC and Jinder as US. I would bet against that, though, because it sets up a weird title situation in Joe-Roman at Backlash.

I wonder what they will do with heel Absolution bumping up against babyface GM Paige. They're still using her entrance music.

   2225. VCar Posted: April 18, 2018 at 01:13 PM (#5655962)
RIP Bruno. Only saw him wrestle live once, and it was in '85 when he was over the hill but trying to help his son get over. He was reduced to just kick and punch by then. But the older crowd still went ape$#!+ for him. I think pro wrestling in the northeast would have dried up without him in the 60s and 70s, and he was the conduit to Hulkster. Supposedly a great guy, though I imagine he had to be tough to effectively negotiate with Toots Mondt and McMahon's dad back in the day.
   2226. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 18, 2018 at 02:23 PM (#5656027)
I wonder if Nakamura will even get a passing title reign as the heel.


My guess is that Nakamura wins the title and then drops it to Bryan sometime this summer. You know Bryan has to be lobbying for that feud.

The women are pretty weak on the heel side. Peyton and Billie are entertaining, but not really top heel material. The best heel is probably Zelina, but I doubt she'll do much actual wrestling. Though I guess she just did a match on NXT so maybe. I expect Charlotte to turn at some point for Rousey, but that is a ways off.
   2227. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 18, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5656045)
Bruno has a great back/childhood story. I also only knew of him in his waning days (80s). I recall Rowdy Piper letting him have it (insults against his hertiage etc). He was in that giant battle royal in Wrestlemania II I believe.
   2228. aberg Posted: April 18, 2018 at 05:00 PM (#5656135)
Bruno has a great back/childhood story. I also only knew of him in his waning days (80s). I recall Rowdy Piper letting him have it (insults against his hertiage etc). He was in that giant battle royal in Wrestlemania II I believe.


Bruno was on Jericho's podcast several months ago and went through his crazy childhood story, living on a wild mountaintop to keep away from WW2 fighting. It's worth a listen.
Page 23 of 23 pages ‹ First  < 21 22 23

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Andere Richtingen
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOTP 2018 Apr 16: Beto strikes out but is a hit at baseball fundraiser
(1097 - 3:57am, Apr 21)
Last: Gonfalon Bubble

NewsblogOT - 2017-18 NBA thread (All-Star Weekend to End of Time edition)
(2265 - 2:56am, Apr 21)
Last: f_cking sick and tired of being 57i66135

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 4-20-2018
(25 - 1:43am, Apr 21)
Last: Hank G.

NewsblogFrankly, my dear, I don't give an OMNICHATTER, for April 20, 2018.
(82 - 12:16am, Apr 21)
Last: Brian C

Hall of Merit2019 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(104 - 10:09pm, Apr 20)
Last: Kiko Sakata

NewsblogBryan Price dismissed as Reds manager | MLB.com
(93 - 10:00pm, Apr 20)
Last: cardsfanboy

NewsblogBBTF ANNUAL CENTRAL PARK SOFTBALL GAME 2018
(61 - 9:38pm, Apr 20)
Last: Greg K

NewsblogOT: Winter Soccer Thread
(1526 - 8:30pm, Apr 20)
Last: Count Vorror Rairol Mencoon (CoB)

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 4-19-2018
(23 - 6:56pm, Apr 20)
Last: Morty Causa

NewsblogIt’s not just ownership that’s keeping Jose Reyes a Met
(30 - 6:45pm, Apr 20)
Last: Howie Menckel

NewsblogUpdate: Cubs' Anthony Rizzo calls his shorter-season, pay-cut comments 'my opinion'
(128 - 4:01pm, Apr 20)
Last: What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face?

NewsblogBraves sign Jose Bautista to a minor-league contract, will play third base
(34 - 1:59pm, Apr 20)
Last: Rally

Sox TherapyAre The Angels A Real Team?
(17 - 1:35pm, Apr 20)
Last: Darren

Sox TherapyLining Up The Minors
(8 - 12:24pm, Apr 20)
Last: Darren

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1942 Ballot
(1 - 11:54am, Apr 20)
Last: DL from MN

Page rendered in 0.2514 seconds
47 querie(s) executed