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Monday, October 27, 2014

OT: Wrestling Thread November 2014

Given that the old wrestling thread got shut down, here is a new one that shamelessly links to my Hell in a Cell review!

aberg Posted: October 27, 2014 at 01:47 PM | 2321 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: wrestling

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   2201. aberg Posted: April 10, 2018 at 01:53 PM (#5650866)
And the IWC is wrong yet again about what they know to be true with Reigns


I was at the show and I disagree with this summary. There are several things that went into the fan reaction to the main event. I think the biggest part is that it came about 6:45 into the show, which is exhausting. Keep in mind that a huge chunk of the fans were drinking on Bourbon St at 10am, so they were about 13 hours into it at that point. WWE knows this. On top of that, they built this match by dumping on Brock, not building Roman. They called him a "part time b****," scripted no-shows, and got Dana White to tell everyone he was leaving WWE. They already knew that these 80k tired, drunk fans dislike Roman, and they turned them all against Brock. What are the fans supposed to do in that situation? I don't even hate Roman, but I definitely resent that WWE keeps doing the exact same thing with him over and over despite the dissatisfaction.

My highlights for the night:
-Great booking and impressive work in Ronda match (though you guys are right that Kurt is cooked).
-IC title match was very fun, hot way to kick off with a good finish.
-Thought Asuka-Charlotte was the match of the night. Charlotte always delivers in big moments.
-It was the most impressive WM stage and AV set-up I have ever seen. My wife works in events and couldn't believe what they put together for one night.
-Nakamura heel turn was well executed, even if the match didn't reach the heights we hoped for.

Letdowns:
-Show needs to be shorter. Nobody makes 7 hour movies. Keep the show to 3.5 hrs + 1hr pre-show, max.
-SD Tag match turned into a throw-away. Why put it on the show if that's what you're going to do with it? (if the question is how to get to that time, I'd cut both battle royals, the CW title match, one tag title match, one women's title match, the HOF recap. I'd move the US-title to the preshow, shorten the entrances significantly, shorten the Universal title match).
-I didn't really get the Taker-Cena thing, but I assume there will be more to come down the road.


We also went to the ROH show the night before. The Omega-Cody match was really good, and this is coming from someone who hasn't been that high on Cody's indy work. Ibushi-Hangman was also phenomenal. I liked the Bucks/Flip Gordon vs. Daniels/Kaz/Other guy spot fest. That show also had about 3 matches too many. Plus, they had problems with their streaming service and one point and had Bubba Dudley kill about 25 minutes on the mic. Ugh. Still very fun overall.
   2202. Man o' Schwar Posted: April 10, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5650915)
I don't even hate Roman, but I definitely resent that WWE keeps doing the exact same thing with him over and over despite the dissatisfaction.

It didn't help things that he kept kicking out of F5s. Do it once, that's fine - WWE spams finishers now anyway. But after #3, #4, #5... it became utterly ridiculous. It was not surprising that the crowd turned on the match. I agree 100% that the length of the show was at least half the problem - I was exhausted just sitting at home after watching so much wrestling, and I was able to take breaks along the way. I wanted the show just to be over at that point, and the ridiculous kickouts were just disheartening - like someone pin someone already, I don't even care who at this point.

The match had none of the excitement of their previous WM match (which also came at the end of the card, but I think that card was an hour shorter). It just felt like a slog in front of a bunch of people who couldn't care less about it. People barely even reacted to any of the big moves, and instead chanted about how awful it was.
   2203. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: April 10, 2018 at 03:10 PM (#5650956)
His upside is Batista,
nope
   2204. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: April 10, 2018 at 03:23 PM (#5650972)
-SD Tag match turned into a throw-away. Why put it on the show if that's what you're going to do with it? (if the question is how to get to that time, I'd cut both battle royals, the CW title match, one tag title match, one women's title match, the HOF recap. I'd move the US-title to the preshow, shorten the entrances significantly, shorten the Universal title match).

instead of cutting champions out of the show, why not have some champion vs. champion matchups
IC champ v. US champ (v. nxt champ?)
womens SD champ v. raw champ
tag team v. tag team

that should get you 3 great matches while strengthening the rest of the card and raising the importance of being a title holder.

you'd still have at least 8 matches:
universal title
WWE title
tag team v. tag team
woman v. woman
IC v. US
battle royale
womens battle royale
gimmick match
undertaker
   2205. aberg Posted: April 10, 2018 at 03:59 PM (#5651012)
instead of cutting champions out of the show, why not have some champion vs. champion matchups


I'm not crazy about those types of matches because it's harder to make it feel high stakes. One thing WWE has done better in recent years is making sure that the Mania matches have stakes- either a title with a reasonable chance that it changes hands, the culmination of a personal issue, or some other stipulation. Having something attached to the result makes most fans more interested and it would be harder to do that under a champion vs champion format.
   2206. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: April 10, 2018 at 04:14 PM (#5651029)
I'm not crazy about those types of matches because it's harder to make it feel high stakes. One thing WWE has done better in recent years is making sure that the Mania matches have stakes- either a title with a reasonable chance that it changes hands, the culmination of a personal issue, or some other stipulation. Having something attached to the result makes most fans more interested and it would be harder to do that under a champion vs champion format.

maybe strip the losers of their titles? then you could spend the next month building up to a king of the ring PPV?

maybe give the IC/US match winner a MITB style title shot?

let the winner of the women's match wax rusev's chest?


personally, i like the pure competition aspect of it. leave the stakes for the important matches; just use these wrestlers to put on a great show.
   2207. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 10, 2018 at 08:10 PM (#5651167)
Well, Smackdown is bringing the heat rather quickly.
   2208. aberg Posted: April 11, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5651406)
Well, Smackdown is bringing the heat rather quickly.


Both the opening and closing segments of SD (which added up to at least 1/4 of the total show) got me very excited. The cash-in was also executed well, even though I'm not big on the Iconic Duo.
   2209. KronicFatigue Posted: April 11, 2018 at 12:18 PM (#5651441)
Anyone watch the HBO documentary on Andre? I thought it was decent, but a bit of a letdown. It did a good job of humanizing him, but didn't tell me anything I already didn't know. And, to be honest, I could have used more of the crazy stories of life with him on the road.

I've always had a big issue with Hogan claiming he wasn't sure how WMIII was going to go. In the past, I've heard him give interviews where he said he was worried Andre was going to shoot on him, and there would have been nothing he could have done to stop it. That was furthered in this doc, confirmed by Vince and some others. Their version has it more of a practical joke on Andre's part, wanting to scare Hogan for shits and giggles.

Hogan said the NIGHT BEFORE the match, Vince asked him what he was thinking about. Hogan then wrote down on a legal pad beat for beat the match, except the ending, which he left open. The documentary showed a legal pad but I have no idea if that was dramatized for affect. Hogan then said he tried to talk to Andre at WM in the lockerroom, but Andre just kept playing cards and would neither confirm nor deny anything.

Fast forward to the match, and Andre starts doing what Hogan scripted. Then towards the end he calls for "slam" (hogan slams him in the iconic moment) and "leg drop". Hogan claims that even after the leg drop he presumed Andre would kick out.

NONE of this rings true. Feels like one last kayfabe BS story to keep the myth going. This was the biggest wrestling match of all time, both financially and in terms of story telling. There's just no way that Vince would let Andre just wing it for a practical joke. The idea that Andre could just shoot and win and effectively end Hulkamania, the graviest of gravy trains, seems absurd on its face.
   2210. aberg Posted: April 11, 2018 at 12:26 PM (#5651452)
NONE of this rings true. Feels like one last kayfabe BS story to keep the myth going.


Yeah, that's my take on it, too. I think that Hogan is always working. This version of the story is more dramatic, so it serves him to tell the story this way. Hogan spanned eras from die-hard kayfabe to the start of a shoot-based story era, but he was always in kayfabe. The guy wore his bandana in court, ffs.
   2211. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 11, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5651507)
Wrestling would have been better place if Iron Sheik broke Hogan's leg in MSG like Verne Gagne asked him to.
   2212. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: April 11, 2018 at 03:28 PM (#5651573)
I haven’t seen the Andre documentary yet but I felt Hogan was disingenuous or at least rewriting history during Flair’s 30 for 30 when he said he knew Flair was better. Hogan definitely helped hold Flair down during the NWO years and helped make the Horseman insignificant
   2213. KronicFatigue Posted: April 11, 2018 at 05:19 PM (#5651706)
What's the conventional wisdom on Hogan vs Flair? Obviously Flair's the better wrestler, but I'm not sure who the better performer was. If you switch their territories, does Flair become as mainstream as Hogan became?
   2214. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 11, 2018 at 06:11 PM (#5651740)
Hogan was more charismatic but Flair was better at most everything else (though Hogan was holding back in WWF compared to what he did in Japan). I don't think Flair would have been as successful as Hogan in WWF. He didn't have the cartoon look and feel that 80s WWF was about. Hogan and Flair were basically the optimal guys for their respective promotions, with the caveat that Savage might have matched/surpassed Hogan with an equivalent push.
   2215. Man o' Schwar Posted: April 11, 2018 at 06:11 PM (#5651741)
Hogan definitely helped hold Flair down during the NWO years and helped make the Horseman insignificant

He also raised objections when Flair was in the WWE in the early 90s - they worked some house shows, but we never got the big Hogan/Flair PPV match that everyone was waiting for. Instead they worked around the periphery with each other, interfering in matches but never really paying it off. There were a lot of speculated reasons (beyond just Hogan's power backstage) for why it happened this way, but most of them revolve around Hogan in some way - Hogan was lying low because of the steroid investigations, Hogan was looking to take some time off and so didn't want to get involved in a big feud where he might not get his chance to win, etc. McMahon also questioned whether Flair's more serious, mat-based style would get over as well in the WWF territory that was dominated by bigger, more theatrical guys.

Plus, Hogan preferred to work a specific kind of match where he could be the underdog against a bigger, stronger wrestler. They could go 10-12 minutes of Hogan getting beat down, then Hulk up, finger point, boot, leg drop, Real American plays. Flair didn't fit that mold - he came up in the NWA system and liked to work matches that ran 30-60 minutes with less "cartoonish" stuff and more Southern-style wrestling. Their styles clashed terribly, and by all reports the matches they did have when Flair was in the WWF in the late 80s/early 90s were far from classics (which couldn't have made McMahon any less wary about putting them in the main event together).

I don't know that Hogan thought he was a superior wrestler to Flair so much as he thought wrestling Flair (and particularly losing to Flair) would hurt him more than help him in the long run. Hogan was always more at home taking on guys like Big John Studd, King Kong Bundy, Sid Vicious, Earthquake, Yokozuna, and of course Andre. He could just plug any generic big man like that into his match formula and get something that he knew would work. Losing to a smaller guy - even one generally recognized as one of the best in the world at that time - wasn't going to support the legacy he had created as the ultimate giant killer.
   2216. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 13, 2018 at 11:29 PM (#5653658)
Plus, Hogan preferred to work a specific kind of match where he could be the underdog against a bigger, stronger wrestler. They could go 10-12 minutes of Hogan getting beat down, then Hulk up, finger point, boot, leg drop, Real American plays. Flair didn't fit that mold - he came up in the NWA system and liked to work matches that ran 30-60 minutes with less "cartoonish" stuff and more Southern-style wrestling. Their styles clashed terribly, and by all reports the matches they did have when Flair was in the WWF in the late 80s/early 90s were far from classics (which couldn't have made McMahon any less wary about putting them in the main event together).


I saw them at a house show in Memphis during Flair's WWF run and it was exactly the same as their WCW matches when Hogan came to that promotion and demanded to remake it in his own image. Hogan gave Flair NOTHING. He no-sold everything but eye rakes and groin strikes, Flair bumped all over the ring, it was over in 9 minutes.

Hogan's egomania ruined wrestling for more than a decade. Ric Flair excelled at pretty much everything as a wrestler, but he was particularly skilled at carrying less-talented workers to great matches because he understood the psychology of wrestling and the particular strengths and limitations of each opponent. The extremely Hogan-esque lummox Lex Luger had the best matches of his career with Flair. All you had to do was let Flair call the match (which, as the heel, he would traditionally do) and everything would turn out great. Say what you want about Ric Flair, he did a better job putting people over than anyone in the business.

But that wouldn't make the Hulkster look strong brother!

Seriously, wrestling would have been in better shape in the 80s, and better shape now, if Iron Sheik really did break Hogan's leg in Madison Square Garden. Hogan somehow managed to make two major promotions unwatchable for anyone but dumb kids.
   2217. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 16, 2018 at 08:04 PM (#5654891)
Opening your Superstar Shakeup with Jinder Mahal is....not the way I would try to drive up interest in your show.
   2218. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 16, 2018 at 09:57 PM (#5654978)
WWE is really changing their ways. Instead of the new NXT call-up feuding with Dolph, he's teaming with Dolph.
   2219. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 16, 2018 at 10:19 PM (#5655011)
I don't know if being friends with Nattie is going to help keep Ronda over.
   2220. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 16, 2018 at 10:57 PM (#5655027)
So Raw gained almost no one of value besides KO and Sami. Drew, I guess. Smackdown got rid of Jinder, Corbin, Nattie, and Riott squad. Got Miz for the Bryan feud. Almost certainly getting Seth (or I guess maybe Jeff Hardy). Probably getting Sasha and Bayley as well (or Mickie and Alexa, but the latter is announced for a title rematch). One night in, one show is looking much better than the other.
   2221. aberg Posted: April 17, 2018 at 12:29 PM (#5655227)
So Raw gained almost no one of value besides KO and Sami. Drew, I guess. Smackdown got rid of Jinder, Corbin, Nattie, and Riott squad. Got Miz for the Bryan feud. Almost certainly getting Seth (or I guess maybe Jeff Hardy). Probably getting Sasha and Bayley as well (or Mickie and Alexa, but the latter is announced for a title rematch). One night in, one show is looking much better than the other.


This is the official full list from WWE:
1) Jinder Mahal
2) Ruby Riott
3) Sarah Logan
4) Liv Morgan
5) Kevin Owens
6) Sami Zayn
7) Zack Ryder
8) Fandango
9) Tyler Breeze
10) Natalya
11) Dolph Ziggler
12) Drew McIntyre
13) Baron Corbin
14) Konnor
15) Viktor
16 Bobby Roode
17) Mojo Rawley
18) Mike Kanellis
19) Chad Gable

Owens (and recently Zayn) has been on the upper part of the SD card. Roode, Ziggler, Corbin, and Jinder have been upper-mid and they seem to really like Roode and Corbin to keep ascending. I think McIntyre and Gable could both do really good things if given the opportunity. The rest of it looks mostly like jobber reshuffling in order to keep the lower part of the card fresh.

We'll see who else goes back from Raw to SD, but I doubt Reigns or Brock is going anywhere, so I doubt it will be all that unbalanced.
   2222. aberg Posted: April 17, 2018 at 02:57 PM (#5655359)
Here are my predictions about who goes to SD.

First, breaking down who went to Raw in categories

Top guys- Owens and Zayn
Upper-mid- Roode, Ziggler, Corbin, Jinder
Women- Natalya, Ruby, Logan, Morgan
Tags- Ascension, Fashion Police
Lower- Gable, Kanellis, Ryder, Mojo
Other- McIntyre

So the corresponding moves to SD

Top guy(s)- Miz, Rollins
Upper-mid- Elias, Big Cass
Women- Dana Brooke, Sasha
Tags- Titus Worldwide, Revival
Lower- R-Truth, Goldust, Curt Hawkins

I could see Finn moving instead of Rollins, in which case I would swap Gallows and Andrson for the Revival (still think they might want to keep the Balor Club thing available). I don't think Ambrose moves, even if he is healthy enough to return, because he has been hurt for a huge chunk of the time since he moved to Raw.


   2223. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 17, 2018 at 10:00 PM (#5655634)
Smackdown gets Jeff Hardy, Samoa Joe, Asuka, Almas, Sheamus & Cesaro, Anderson & Gallows, Sanity (Dain, Young, and Wolf), Big Cass, R-Truth, and Absolution. That seems like a big win for Smackdown.

However, Bryan is feuding with Big Cass? Ugh.
   2224. aberg Posted: April 18, 2018 at 11:30 AM (#5655894)
I was shockingly wrong about almost every one of my guesses. Oh well. Seems like they have stacked the SD tag division. I thought they might try to align guys to feud with a heel Nakamura, but with Joe, Almas, Cass, and Sanity, it seems more like they are lining up heels to feud with Styles or Bryan as the champ. I wonder if Nakamura will even get a passing title reign as the heel.

Cass is maybe my very last choice for guys I most want to see vs. Bryan.

There's still a chance that they flip-flop the secondary titles at GRR. Could have Joe as IC and Jinder as US. I would bet against that, though, because it sets up a weird title situation in Joe-Roman at Backlash.

I wonder what they will do with heel Absolution bumping up against babyface GM Paige. They're still using her entrance music.

   2225. VCar Posted: April 18, 2018 at 01:13 PM (#5655962)
RIP Bruno. Only saw him wrestle live once, and it was in '85 when he was over the hill but trying to help his son get over. He was reduced to just kick and punch by then. But the older crowd still went ape$#!+ for him. I think pro wrestling in the northeast would have dried up without him in the 60s and 70s, and he was the conduit to Hulkster. Supposedly a great guy, though I imagine he had to be tough to effectively negotiate with Toots Mondt and McMahon's dad back in the day.
   2226. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 18, 2018 at 02:23 PM (#5656027)
I wonder if Nakamura will even get a passing title reign as the heel.


My guess is that Nakamura wins the title and then drops it to Bryan sometime this summer. You know Bryan has to be lobbying for that feud.

The women are pretty weak on the heel side. Peyton and Billie are entertaining, but not really top heel material. The best heel is probably Zelina, but I doubt she'll do much actual wrestling. Though I guess she just did a match on NXT so maybe. I expect Charlotte to turn at some point for Rousey, but that is a ways off.
   2227. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 18, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5656045)
Bruno has a great back/childhood story. I also only knew of him in his waning days (80s). I recall Rowdy Piper letting him have it (insults against his hertiage etc). He was in that giant battle royal in Wrestlemania II I believe.
   2228. aberg Posted: April 18, 2018 at 05:00 PM (#5656135)
Bruno has a great back/childhood story. I also only knew of him in his waning days (80s). I recall Rowdy Piper letting him have it (insults against his hertiage etc). He was in that giant battle royal in Wrestlemania II I believe.


Bruno was on Jericho's podcast several months ago and went through his crazy childhood story, living on a wild mountaintop to keep away from WW2 fighting. It's worth a listen.
   2229. Chokeland Bill Posted: April 27, 2018 at 03:27 PM (#5661757)
They still refuse to give Roman the title, but man he even got boos in Saudi Arabia.
   2230. Man o' Schwar Posted: April 27, 2018 at 09:24 PM (#5661966)
They still refuse to give Roman the title, but man he even got boos in Saudi Arabia.

What do you do with him now? I honestly have no idea. There's no storyline reason to think he deserves another title shot after losing twice in a row - he won his way in to the WM main event, fine. Then he was given this as a rematch for no real reason, and lost again. As has been said so many time before - back of the line. The logical next choice for Lesnar would be Braun, given that he just won the GRR. Make that fake belt mean something.

But I assume they'll go with some kind of a commissioner Jack Tunney/title held up screwjob, given that Roman stepped off the cage first, and then they'll fight again at Summerslam or whatever.

(And I mean, does Lesnar have like Hogan levels of creative control over his character or something? I'd love to have the skinny on what the decision-making process around all this looks like.)
   2231. aberg Posted: May 02, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5664391)
(And I mean, does Lesnar have like Hogan levels of creative control over his character or something? I'd love to have the skinny on what the decision-making process around all this looks like.)


I think the simplest answer is that Vince thinks he's amazing and is sure that he'll be a huge star. Vince also loves the babyface champ on top. There is enough evidence against Roman that the people around Vince have kept him from strapping the title to Roman, but I can see why he would want to keep protecting him.
   2232. aberg Posted: May 02, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5664392)
edit- double
   2233. Chokeland Bill Posted: May 08, 2018 at 10:03 PM (#5668963)
Daniel Bryan loses clean to Rusev? Um, ok.
   2234. aberg Posted: May 21, 2018 at 01:44 PM (#5676544)
Supposedly WWE is about to sell the rights to SD to network Fox for a huge amount. That raises tons of interesting questions. Does SD become the A show? Will it impact talent allocation? Does SD go to 3 hours? Does the WWE business model change with a huge infusion of cash? Will the increased exposure trickle down to the network subs? Very intriguing day in wrestling business world.
   2235. Chokeland Bill Posted: June 09, 2018 at 07:17 PM (#5689061)
Okada/Omega 4 was good. I think I liked the G1 match the most of the 4.
   2236. rconn23 Posted: June 09, 2018 at 09:41 PM (#5689138)
I think that Omega/Okada match last night was the greatest I've ever seen. All four matches were great. And that Jericho/Naito match was fun as hell.
   2237. Man o' Schwar Posted: June 11, 2018 at 12:53 PM (#5689658)
I don't get how it is that Japan can put on these amazing matches between top guys that have the crowds on the edge of their seats for an hour(!), and the WWE, which has as much if not more talent available to it, manages to put together entire PPV cards without a single compelling match.

The crowd pop with the last fall of Omega/Okada was insane. And Don Callis shouting "HOOK THE LEG! HOOK THE LEG!" was one of the best calls I think I've ever heard.

When was the last time WWE had a crowd reaction like that? Daniel Bryan at WM 30? How are they managing to do so much wrong with so many talented guys? Is it over exposure - impossible to fill 5 hours a week of TV plus network specials plus whatever else and keep it interesting? Is it the fans - are we too jaded/cynical and not able to buy into the spectacle like the Japanese fans can? Or is it just bad decision making?

Edit: Or does WWE just care about something completely different than NJPW? Maybe WWE books to increase network subscribers, mainstream media coverage, and "popularity", and if that means that Lumbering Giant #1 has to face Charisma Black Hole #5 at 6 PPVs in a row because some focus group tells them that will be best for business, then that's what they do.
   2238. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: June 11, 2018 at 01:12 PM (#5689672)
The top New Japan guys are better. They wrestle a different and more brutal style. And because of it, they have these big matches less frequently. And because of that, there's an inherent build to them. And because of that, the matches mean more.
   2239. aberg Posted: June 11, 2018 at 01:17 PM (#5689679)
Edit: Or does WWE just care about something completely different than NJPW? Maybe WWE books to increase network subscribers, mainstream media coverage, and "popularity", and if that means that Lumbering Giant #1 has to face Charisma Black Hole #5 at 6 PPVs in a row because some focus group tells them that will be best for business, then that's what they do.


I think there are a variety of factors involved. You mentioned a few big ones- WWE focuses more on "spectacle" and mass appeal than pure wrestling. NJPW has identified a subgroup of wrestling fans who like dramatic competition without a ton of theatrics and seemingly taken over that niche wonderfully. Another aspect is that NJPW guys could not work that style on a WWE schedule, which includes something like 3x more dates.

Also, would WWE make as much money if they did something closer to the NJPW product? Would fox write them a billion dollar check for that product? I tend to doubt it, but the flagging WWE ratings make me at least consider the opposite.

Part of the issue is Vince and his preoccupation with star power. If the prevailing narrative about HHH's booking proclivities is accurate and the main roster looks more like NXT booking when he pries the book from Vince's cold, dead hands, I think that is a balance closer to what I would prefer.

TLDR- I personally prefer the NJPW style and I get why most people posting about wrestling on the internet feel that way, but I suspect that lots of people who contribute revenue to WWE feel differently.
   2240. Man o' Schwar Posted: June 11, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5689737)
I suspect that lots of people who contribute revenue to WWE feel differently.

I think that's a big part of it. The casual fan who will tune in to watch Ronda Rousey (she was in that Entourage movie!) or the men/women featured on Total Bellas would probably have been bored senseless by a 75-minute match of two guys beating the crap out of each other. But those casual fans are a much bigger potential market than the hardcore fans are (in part because hardcore fans have shown that they'll keep watching and keep subscribing, no matter how crappy the product is - even if only so that they can complain about it online).

I do agree that Vince seems to be a big part of it. It feels sometimes like, in his mind, it's still 1984 and he's still looking at every big, muscly guy as the next potential Hulk Hogan.
   2241. Chokeland Bill Posted: June 11, 2018 at 02:38 PM (#5689789)
You probably can't get away with a 40+ minute match in WWE like you can in New Japan, but there's no reason the ~20 min matches can't be better.

Here are the problems as I see them:

1. Over-commitment to formulas and roles. We are supposed to cheer for Roman and boo Joe, so they kill the crowed for a match by it mostly being rest holds. Pretty much every heel has to cheat to win and runs away all the time. NJPW doesn't force face/heel alignments so blatantly, and will in fact let roles change based on the match and crowd demands (beloved babyface Tanahashi plays heel in a good number of matches). WWE actually does do this sometimes (such as Cena/Bryan or Roman's feud with AJ), but not often enough.
2. WWE does the same matches over and over on live TV. AJ and Nakamura had a match to set the stipulation for their real match. That's just dumb. Finn and Seth faced each other how many weeks in a row? Even the most interesting matchups get run into the ground. If a title changes, you know you're probably getting the same match again next month due to the rematch clause. They don't use a huge portion of the roster regularly. Why have Roman murder Curt Hawkins during the build to the Jinder PPV match when you can have a match with Jinder on Raw instead?
3. As a result of both of these, you have endless dirty or non-finishes for matches. NJPW basically never has a dirty finish in an important match.
4. With all of these matches, almost everyone loses all of the time, so the stakes for any individual match are low. Okada loses a couple of times a year and hadn't lost a title match in 2, so his loss felt like a big deal. Asuka doesn't lose for years until Mania 34, then her conqueror immediately loses a bunch of times to other women who lose all the time. No one gets over from that.
5. NJPW does multiple tournaments a year which forces interesting new matchups and keeps the title contenders separate. WWE generally hates tournaments, at least on the main roster. The G1 is basically the best idea in wrestling. It has stakes, it generates storylines, it lets your top guys lose with a good reason behind it, it's an easy way to move new guys up the card.
6. Inability to write for babyfaces. Poorly scripted babyface promos kill the interest in babyfaces, so the crowd is less invested in the match. Heel promos that only put the heel over do the same. The heels who get to do their own talking, your Mizzes and KOs, know how to get their heat while making the babyface look good. Alexa Bliss is a great talker, but almost every promo buries the face to make Alexa look good. Then you have weaker talkers like Bayley and Sasha forced to say things that don't sound like real human talk. Why should I care about Bayley if Alexa is so great and Bayley sounds like a weirdo?
   2242. aberg Posted: June 11, 2018 at 02:55 PM (#5689816)
That's a really good point about overexposure. The huge volume of content WWE puts out waters down the characters, the rivalries, and even the individuals styles/moves the guys do.
   2243. aberg Posted: June 11, 2018 at 02:58 PM (#5689821)
The best WWE faces of the last 5 years got over on their in ring work. Bryan, Rollins, even Cena fit that description. That may we'll have to do with your #6.
   2244. Chokeland Bill Posted: June 11, 2018 at 03:04 PM (#5689830)
Bryan cut a fantastic promo last week.... that was only shown online. He's a next level babyface promo right now, so of course he is still feuding with Big Cass and isn't on TV every week.

In general, the online only promos are way better than the TV promos. It's the real people talking, not the writers.
   2245. rconn23 Posted: June 11, 2018 at 03:54 PM (#5689848)
"The top New Japan guys are better. They wrestle a different and more brutal style. And because of it, they have these big matches less frequently. And because of that, there's an inherent build to them. And because of that, the matches mean more."

That's pretty much it. Okada is the best in ring performer of all time, IMO. His title reign wasn't over saturated with defenses, and so they always meant something. I'm not a NJPW aficionado by any means, but it's clear watching the product for just a brief time that the top New Japan guys are better than the top WWE guys. WWE has a deeper roster, obviously.

   2246. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 11, 2018 at 03:54 PM (#5689849)
Pretty much every heel has to cheat to win and runs away all the time.


"All heels must be cowards" is actual WWE policy. Even Vader, the most awe-inspiring monster heel in the business, was told he had to back down and cower from faces he was booked with, which is stupid beyond words and just another reason why his WWE run marked the only time in his career he didn't enjoy overwhelming success.
   2247. Chokeland Bill Posted: June 11, 2018 at 04:11 PM (#5689858)
That's pretty much it. Okada is the best in ring performer of all time, IMO. His title reign wasn't over saturated with defenses, and so they always meant something. I'm not a NJPW aficionado by any means, but it's clear watching the product for just a brief time that the top New Japan guys are better than the top WWE guys. WWE has a deeper roster, obviously.


Leaving out Okada and Tanahashi, who may be the two best guys of all time, I don't think talent is all that big of a contributor to the disparity. NXT has several matches as good as all but the very best NJPW matches, but the guys/girls having those great matches don't do as well on the main roster. Really, Owens is the only one to have made a fully successful transition and it's largely due to his talking (maybe Charlotte as well). It's not like they got weaker as performers - there is inherently something different on the main roster holding everyone back.

NXT has the hidden "benefit" of often having their best people taken away so no one gets stale. But the biggest strength of NXT might be the pre-taping. They have to pick a direction and stay with it, which the main roster really struggles with.
   2248. Man o' Schwar Posted: June 19, 2018 at 08:12 PM (#5695664)
So Cass got released.

Who would have thought that, out of the trio of Cass, Enzo, and Carmella, Carmella would have had far and away the best main roster career.
   2249. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: June 19, 2018 at 08:34 PM (#5695696)
Two of them still have an excellent chance of putting out the best rap song too.
   2250. Chokeland Bill Posted: June 20, 2018 at 11:39 AM (#5696081)
RIP Vader
   2251. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: June 20, 2018 at 12:53 PM (#5696171)
RIP Vader

Aw damn. RIP indeed. Vader doing a moonsault was just ridiculous.
   2252. Man o' Schwar Posted: June 20, 2018 at 02:10 PM (#5696277)
Oh man that's sad. I know he had been sick.

Vader was amazing, a true monster of wrestling. He's easily in the top 5 all time of guys who looked like they could just kick your ass.

My dream match across time might be Vader in his prime vs. Lesnar in his prime.
   2253. Chokeland Bill Posted: July 24, 2018 at 01:14 PM (#5714958)
So an all women's PPV. Hopefully Alexa and Carmella drop the belts by then. I don't think WWE should have a bad main event for this show. I imagine Ronda is winning at Summerslam so that could take care of part of it. MYC finals will be on the show, so we're probably getting Io Shirai at the very least.
   2254. aberg Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:03 PM (#5715157)
So an all women's PPV. Hopefully Alexa and Carmella drop the belts by then. I don't think WWE should have a bad main event for this show. I imagine Ronda is winning at Summerslam so that could take care of part of it. MYC finals will be on the show, so we're probably getting Io Shirai at the very least.


They have not done a lot to distinguish the Raw, NXT, and Smackdown divisions from one another, so I hope they make the matches more distinctive. For example, I would like if the PPV had a #1 contender battle royal or a MITB match just so it doesn't feel like one similar singles match after another. If I'm fantasy booking the card a couple months out, I think it would look like this:

-Charlotte vs. Asuka for SD Women's Title
-Ronda vs. Alexa vs. Nia for Raw Women's Title
-Shayna Baszler vs. somebody (Candice LaRae?) for NXT Women's Title
-MYC Final
-Sasha vs. Bayley no DQ match
-#1 contender women's battle royal
   2255. RJ in TO Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:11 PM (#5715169)
Masa Saito passed away last week.
   2256. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5715186)
WWE did have a quick remembrance on screen for Saito. Saito was part of the very poorly promoted New Japan vs. WCW series at Starrcade 95

I was disappointed they didn't bring back the women's tag title although I don't know how they'd do that since I dont think they have enough teams for RAW and Smackdown tag titles

I figured Bayley and Sasha could dominate the tag division for a while but now I don't see where they're going with Bayley and Sasha since I think Sasha is better as a heel
   2257. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 24, 2018 at 04:37 PM (#5715192)
WWE did have a quick remembrance on screen for Saito. Saito was part of the very poorly promoted New Japan vs. WCW series at Starrcade 95


He was also part of the excellent "Saito and Ken Patera freak out at McDonalds and beat up a bunch of cops" angle that drew pretty good heat in the 80s.
   2258. Chokeland Bill Posted: July 24, 2018 at 05:21 PM (#5715235)
-Charlotte vs. Asuka for SD Women's Title
-Ronda vs. Alexa vs. Nia for Raw Women's Title
-Shayna Baszler vs. somebody (Candice LaRae?) for NXT Women's Title
-MYC Final
-Sasha vs. Bayley no DQ match
-#1 contender women's battle royal


- With Charlotte's medical issues and the current story going on, Becky's probably getting the Summerslam matcand I don't think there is a way to get to Charlotte/Asuka (plus Asuka has basically lost credibility and needs to be built up again). I could see Charlotte/Becky to start Charlotte's heel turn for the eventual Rousey Wrestlemania match, but I don't think Charlotte's actually going to be in the title picture, I think she's winning the Rumble. Maybe Becky vs the IIconics in a triple threat where they can really play her up as a babyface underdog.
- I really, really hope that's not the Raw match. Ronda's probably winning at Summerslam and defending in September, so Alexa might be out by then (not that she won't have something else to do on the card). Nia already looks like they've dumped her. She's been mostly absent since dropping the title. I think the best fit might be Ronda/Natalya. I think a good Ronda path going forward is Natalya, a champion vs champion match at Survivor Series (Becky?) and then Sasha at the Rumble. That should give her a nice string of matches to prepare for Mania, if they are still planning on her main eventing. But this is WWE, so it will probably be Alexa, Alexa, and a triple threat against Carmella and Alexa. Why have good matches when you can have a hot blonde instead?
- If Kairi wins at Takeover Brooklyn, this could be Shayna's rematch and then do Kairi/Io at the November Takeover.
- There's probably going to be an NXT UK match as well, so presumably Toni Storm vs someone. Vince probably takes one look at her and wonders why she's stuck in the UK brand. BLONDE.
   2259. aberg Posted: July 24, 2018 at 06:07 PM (#5715259)
- There's probably going to be an NXT UK match as well, so presumably Toni Storm vs someone. Vince probably takes one look at her and wonders why she's stuck in the UK brand. BLONDE.


I like Toni Storm. I'm going to one of the Progress US tour shows in two weeks and I hope she sticks around long enough to make that show. They already announced a main event of Dunne, Bate, and Seven vs. Rey Horus, Flamita, and Bandido.
   2260. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 29, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5717656)
Sad day in the 'rasslin business today as three notable wrestlers have died. Nikolai Volkoff is probably the best-known of the bunch and had a long successful career as one of the Mongols before then becoming a Cold War Russian heel in the WWF and elsewhere. Brickhouse Brown was a well-respected midcarder in Texas and various Southern territories in the 80s and 90s and was still a solid worker the last time I saw him in Memphis in the late-90s. Last is Brian Christopher who had a great run in the WWE as half of a comedy tagteam but may be better known as the real-life son of Jerry Lawler. I'll always remember Christopher for this promo from Memphis, which I watched on TV live.
   2261. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: July 29, 2018 at 01:48 PM (#5717657)
Loved Volkoff demanding silence so he could sing the Soviet anthem.
   2262. VCar Posted: July 29, 2018 at 02:36 PM (#5717670)
After he retired, Volkoff became a Baltimore county cop. One of my friends got pulled over several years ago and recognized him. But can you imagine getting pulled over by a 6'-6", 300# cop with that accent if you didn;t know who it was?
   2263. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: July 29, 2018 at 03:37 PM (#5717682)
News on Brian Christopher gets even sadder, he apparently hanged himself while in jail for DUI and evading arrest.
   2264. aberg Posted: August 02, 2018 at 11:57 AM (#5719622)
After he retired, Volkoff became a Baltimore county cop. One of my friends got pulled over several years ago and recognized him. But can you imagine getting pulled over by a 6'-6", 300# cop with that accent if you didn;t know who it was?


I love the stories about how cheap he was. He would supposedly bring a hot plate on the road, go to the local grocery store, and ask for whatever produce was about to be thrown out that he could have for a couple bucks. He'd bring it back and fry it all up in his hotel room. Other wrestlers would try to stay far away from him to avoid the smell. Cook in peace, Nikolai.
   2265. Mark Edward Posted: August 10, 2018 at 05:29 PM (#5724904)
So CM Punk comes off looking like an ass here, huh
   2266. aberg Posted: August 13, 2018 at 02:24 PM (#5725843)
I read all the filings that Colt Cabana made in that lawsuit against punk. The situation is actually pretty complicated.

First, punk told him that he was "100% covered" in an email about responding to the initial filing by Amman. There wasn't really anything about the costs at that point. It looked more like he was saying his lawyer would send back the response on behalf of both of them. It's possible to read it as being about payment, but there are definitely other reasonable ways to read it.

Later, they had a written agreement with punk's law firm would represent both of them and as long as they did that, punk would pay the bills, unless a conflict of interest arose. After about 2 years of that, punk told colt that he had already paid like $550k in legal bills and couldn't afford to pay for both of them anymore and wanted colt to start paying for half. Colt said no, and shortly after that, punk's firm withdrew from representing colt (presumably because that dispute over payment would be a conflict between them).

Then colt spent another $200k over the remainder of the trial on his own lawyers, which is what he's suing punk for. So, from one point of view, punk paid for him for a long time and then was like, "sorry, I can't pay more than I already have for you" and colt wanted him to keep paying, but what was colt going to do, stop being sued?

I also doubt that punk knew that the bill for legal fees was going to be close to $1m when he said he would cover colt. It would definitely be more honorable to pay given that he kind of implied that he would pay no matter what. On the other hand, it's kind of crazy to think he should shell out half a million for someone else's legal fees.
   2267. PepTech, the Legendary Posted: August 13, 2018 at 02:40 PM (#5725849)
Oh, yeah, there's a wrestling thread. Cross posting from Pop Culture:

RIP to yet another of my faves from BITD: Jim "The Anvil" Neidhart

I'd forgotten about this match - a bunch of in-their-prime talent here... and Goldust!
   2268. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 13, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5725859)
Who?
   2269. Man o' Schwar Posted: August 13, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5725954)
Someone on Reddit pointed out that Bret is now the last living member of the Hart Foundation - Anvil, Bulldog, Pillman, and Owen all dead. Though I guess Pillman and Owen have been dead for about 20 years now, and Bret didn't exactly emerge unscathed, what with the strokes and all the health problems he's had.

Jimmy Hart is still around, and he was 15-25 years older than everyone else in the group.

(Weird baseball coincidence: Jimmy Hart's real name is James Ray Hart. Not to be confused with former slugging first baseman Jim Ray Hart. The two were born only 14 months apart.)

   2270. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: August 15, 2018 at 08:18 PM (#5727525)
I'm surprised the long awaited Bryan/Miz grudge match doesn't have a title involved, especially with how much the Miz held the IC belt over the last few years. The Bryan/Miz match would be a better US title match up rather than Nakamura/Hardy

I'm guessing maybe the WWE doesn't trust Bryan to stay healthy
   2271. Chokeland Bill Posted: August 15, 2018 at 08:54 PM (#5727554)
I think it's a combination of wanting him to prove he's healthy, and not wanting to commit to him until he re-signs. Supposedly that hasn't happened yet, with about two weeks to go. I would be pretty surprised if he doesn't stay, but I can totally understand why someone who cares so much about the actual art-form would want to look at other options. WWE creative has been in the toilet lately, and they have no reason to get better.

In related news, the G1 was awesome once again. Omega-Tanahashi is a very promising main event for Wrestle Kingdom, pretty close to a completely fresh match-up.
   2272. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 16, 2018 at 09:17 AM (#5727707)
Anyone listen to Jim Cornette's podcast?
   2273. rconn23 Posted: August 16, 2018 at 10:12 AM (#5727740)
"Anyone listen to Jim Cornette's podcast?"

I do. Both of them. I really enjoy his Drive-Thru podcast on Mondays when he just answers listener questions. His regular podcast is good, but he goes on political rants a lot. While I agree with him politically, it does take up a bit much of the podcast.
   2274. aberg Posted: August 17, 2018 at 01:10 PM (#5728844)
I do. Both of them. I really enjoy his Drive-Thru podcast on Mondays when he just answers listener questions. His regular podcast is good, but he goes on political rants a lot. While I agree with him politically, it does take up a bit much of the podcast.


Just out of curiosity, what are Cornette's top political positions?
   2275. rconn23 Posted: August 17, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5728932)
"Just out of curiosity, what are Cornette's top political positions?"

In a nutshell, virulently anti-Trump. Says he wasn't really that political before he became president.
   2276. Chokeland Bill Posted: August 18, 2018 at 10:26 PM (#5729528)
NXT. NXT. NXT.
   2277. Man o' Schwar Posted: August 20, 2018 at 11:44 AM (#5730151)
Summerslam was an odd mix of really good matches and absolute squashes.

I'll give this to Vince - he's a smart guy. He knew the crowd would #### all over the Reigns/Lesnar match, so he bait-and-switched the Braun cash-in as a way to keep people interested, then cut to the credits 15 seconds after the match ended to hide the backlash from the live crowd. I guess it bought him one relatively peaceful night of Roman as the champion. Of course, RAW is going to be a disaster.

The highlight of the night might have been Lesnar's hammer throw of the briefcase, arrow-straight, that broke panels on the Titantron. That was amazing.
   2278. rconn23 Posted: August 20, 2018 at 03:33 PM (#5730330)
The AJ vs. Joe match was my favorite at Summerslam. The ending was fine given they are already confirmed for a match at HIAC. Bryan vs. Miz was very good as well, and I always like a good brass knucks spot.
   2279. aberg Posted: August 20, 2018 at 04:30 PM (#5730369)
I'll give this to Vince - he's a smart guy. He knew the crowd would #### all over the Reigns/Lesnar match, so he bait-and-switched the Braun cash-in as a way to keep people interested, then cut to the credits 15 seconds after the match ended to hide the backlash from the live crowd. I guess it bought him one relatively peaceful night of Roman as the champion. Of course, RAW is going to be a disaster.


Sure, but where does that get you?

Problem: Your fans hate your main event so much that they're going to boo them out of the arena. Solution: Trick them into thinking that someone they like might get involved, even though he actually won't. What?

I agree with AJ-Joe being my favorite. They were really having a barn-burner and the feud is justing heating up, so that finish is fine. Actually adds to the story.

Those weren't brass knucks that Miz had; they were a finger protector, as the Brain would say. Those two were great, too. They deserved the extended time they got.

Seth-Dolph was really good. So was the Charlotte-Becky-Carmella match (even if Becky as the heel is a little awkward). New Day probably got the most entertaining match so far out of the Bludgeons. The Ronda match didn't work for me- it felt too scripted and she was never in any peril. That's the first thing she has done that I haven't liked.
   2280. Chokeland Bill Posted: August 20, 2018 at 05:29 PM (#5730406)
If Vince honestly expected Becky to be booed over Charlotte, he really has lost it. Becky has been the most consistently cheered babyface on the main roster for years. Even with all of the losing, she never lost the crowd. Why on Earth would he think Charlotte, who has never really gotten good reactions as a babyface, would be the sympathetic one after she just gets dropped right into another title match that someone else had earned?

We won't know until tomorrow night, but man, that is about as obvious a misreading of the audience as you can get, even more than the Roman stuff.
   2281. Rowland Office Supplies Posted: August 20, 2018 at 05:42 PM (#5730410)
The AJ vs. Joe match was my favorite at Summerslam. The ending was fine given they are already confirmed for a match at HIAC.


Oh my goodness...how great was the mic picking up that precious child saying, "Daddy, you're bleeding"? Most likely just a kid being a kid...but I swear there's a part of me that would like to think that she's that young and already knows how to work.
   2282. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 20, 2018 at 05:52 PM (#5730418)
I see this as a long build to an inevitable WrestleMania three-way dance next April between Annie Styles, Monroe Mizanin, and Nicholas (who never lost his title in the ring).
   2283. Man o' Schwar Posted: August 20, 2018 at 06:08 PM (#5730425)
If Vince honestly expected Becky to be booed over Charlotte, he really has lost it. Becky has been the most consistently cheered babyface on the main roster for years. Even with all of the losing, she never lost the crowd. Why on Earth would he think Charlotte, who has never really gotten good reactions as a babyface, would be the sympathetic one after she just gets dropped right into another title match that someone else had earned?

My reaction exactly. If they think Charlotte is the face and Becky is the heel in this, they're wildly mistaken. I'm not sure what they would need Becky to do to make the crowd boo her, but it probably involves peeing on a picture of Reid Flair while gutting a puppy in the middle of the ring.

Charlotte has 100% the bearing and mannerisms of a heel, just like her dad. Why fight it? The crowd is going to go ########## when Becky beats her for the title.

(As a Becky fan, I still hold out the delusion that could actually happen...)
   2284. Man o' Schwar Posted: August 20, 2018 at 06:19 PM (#5730428)
Sure, but where does that get you?

Problem: Your fans hate your main event so much that they're going to boo them out of the arena. Solution: Trick them into thinking that someone they like might get involved, even though he actually won't. What?


Eh, we've been in the same place for 3+ years. They're going to keep shoving Reigns down our throats as the plucky underdog who overcomes the odds, and we'll keep hating them for it. Look how hard they had to work to make people even seem mildly against Lesnar in this feud.

What heel is out there right now that they could put against Reigns and get him cheered? They tried Jinder, no luck. It's not Braun (he's barely even a heel anymore). Kevin Owens has been more or less neutered. Joe is tied up with AJ. Rusev can't even win on the pre-show. They worked so hard to put him at the top of the mountain, but now what? Do you bring back someone like Kane or the Big Show for some plodding big guy program to buy yourself a couple of months? You're not going to waste HHH on this spot, not this far from WM, plus he and Reigns already did a thing. Do we want to see that again?

Will Lesnar be back at HIAC, 5ice in a Lifetime? If he comes back, doesn't that kind of go against the argument they've been making for the last 2 months that he doesn't really want to be there?

This is the definition of being booked into a corner. OK great, you put the belt on the person you wanted, over 90% of the fans' objections, after about 3+ years of teasing it. But he has nowhere to go. All the real challengers - guys like Rollins, demon Balor, Ambrose, Braun - will drown him in boos. No one will want him to win. Now instead of being the challenger everyone hates, he's the champion everyone hates, but for all the wrong reasons.
   2285. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: August 20, 2018 at 06:24 PM (#5730429)
I do. Both of them. I really enjoy his Drive-Thru podcast on Mondays when he just answers listener questions. His regular podcast is good, but he goes on political rants a lot. While I agree with him politically, it does take up a bit much of the podcast.


I like Jim because he’s both articulate and his career straddled the last glory days of the territorial system and the tasteless boobery of “sports entertainment” and WWF dominance while being successful in both eras. He’s been a student of the sport for the entirety of his involvement in it and seems to be generally well-liked and respected by the wrestlers themselves (front office types not so much).

Like Jim I strongly preferred the way wrestling was in the territorial days and believe it was better for both the wrestlers and the fans. Unlike Jim I don’t see how wrestling would have ever survived the post-kayfabe era brought about by the double-whammy of the internet and the WWF’s winking, sneering distaste for “rasslin” and desire to turn it into something homogenized and standardized.
   2286. there isn't anything to do in buffalo but 57i66135 Posted: August 20, 2018 at 06:54 PM (#5730435)
What heel is out there right now that they could put against Reigns and get him cheered?

jbl
   2287. Chokeland Bill Posted: August 20, 2018 at 07:52 PM (#5730455)
On a different note, the Finn Balor match was exactly what it should have been and a really good way to get him back in the mix with one well-handled segment.
   2288. Chokeland Bill Posted: August 20, 2018 at 11:11 PM (#5730528)
Well, they managed to get The Shield booed. Success?
   2289. aberg Posted: August 21, 2018 at 01:18 PM (#5730765)
They were on the right track. If Roman just beat Balor in a good match and kept that up on a fairly regular basis, that might actually get people to hate him less.
   2290. Chokeland Bill Posted: August 21, 2018 at 01:54 PM (#5730804)
If he does the Cena open challenge thing that would be a huge boost, I think.

Apparently Becky was heel at the house show last night.
   2291. NJ in NY (Now with Toddler!) Posted: August 24, 2018 at 11:42 PM (#5733480)
Just watched Summerslam. Liked Reigns vs. Lesnar a lot, despite hating Reigns as the champion over Strowman cashing in and walking away champ. Match of the night for me was the Smackdown Women's 3-Way, which I thought was incredible. It was everything that is right with wrestling as far as telling a story and getting me to buy in. Before that match I always thought Becky was the least interesting completely bland woman of the NXT generation and over the course of the hype video+match they got me to buy all the way in and want her to win so badly.

Bryan vs. Miz dragged for me. Joe vs. AJ and Dolph vs. Seth were both technically good, but didn't move the emotional needle for me. Ronda vs. Bliss was bad. First bad match of the Rousey Era.
   2292. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 01, 2018 at 06:45 AM (#5737320)
   2293. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: September 02, 2018 at 05:51 PM (#5737769)
The All-In show was a fun event last night and worth checking out if you missed. Most of the stuff I deplore about modern wrestling was on full display (30 seconds into a match guys are looking for ring dives, c’mon) but everyone worked extremely hard and the event was a perfect showcase for guys who deserved a big audience.
   2294. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 16, 2018 at 11:58 PM (#5745364)
I thought the Reigns-Strowman Hell in a Cell match was a little underbooked.
   2295. Tubbs is Bobby Grich when he flys off the handle Posted: October 03, 2018 at 08:37 AM (#5759131)
A few notes since we haven't had much activity on this thread lately

Bobby Lashley and Lilo Rush--as someone who doesn't regularly watch NXT, Rush seems like a natural to be an obnoxious, weasely heel and a miscast as a face mgr. I'm not sure why Lashley needs Rush

Liv Morgan injury--Brie Bella has been a little off since returning but you could tell she truly felt remorseful for hurting Liv. Accidents happen. Liv is probably the best or at least among the best bump takers of the women wrestlers & her expressions when she was actually hurt were pretty much the same as when she's taking bumps. She ran in and did the triple-suplex spot on autopilot when she already was concussed. I hope this unfortunate injury sheds light on her potential

Bobby Roode & Chad Gable--Gable looked like a regular contender for IC/US secondary belt but not sure who's mad at him but now he's de-pushed down to an awkward tag pairing and jobbing out to Viktor from the Ascension. Ouch

   2296. Chokeland Bill Posted: October 22, 2018 at 08:42 PM (#5772751)
Holy crap with this Roman news. Best of luck with him on his fight and recovery.
   2297. Man o' Schwar Posted: October 22, 2018 at 10:28 PM (#5772789)
It's the craziest news. If he's able to come back, they're not going to have to worry about getting people to cheer him anymore.
   2298. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: October 23, 2018 at 06:49 AM (#5772846)
The WWE has issued a statement:

“If any of you are still talking about this Saudi Arabia thing instead of supporting a brave and heroic WWE Superstar whose fight with cancer will inspire millions, you are an awful person who loves cancer.”
   2299. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: October 23, 2018 at 07:59 AM (#5772856)
August 20:
What heel is out there right now that they could put against Reigns and get him cheered?


Don't ask a question when you might not like the answer.
   2300. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: October 24, 2018 at 02:42 PM (#5774239)
If he's able to come back, they're not going to have to worry about getting people to cheer him anymore.

Unless it's a work.
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