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1. RB in NYC (Now with New iPhone!) Posted: November 25, 2009 at 01:15 PM (#3396395)Maybe Rice was applying for a job at ESPN or MLB network and figured this statement would augment his analyst credentials for them.
Ranking in OPS+ through age of 2Bs since 1925 (about when 2B and 3B switched on the defensive spectrum) with at least 400 games played:
Lazzeri*, Morgan*, Grich**, Gordon*, Molitor*, Baerga, Alomar***, Carew*, Orta, Mike Andrews, Jim Lefebvre, Pedroia***, Sandberg*, Cano***, Randolph**, Rose***, Herman*, Cuccinello, Hunt, Doerr*
Those are the top 20. One * means the player's a HOFer, two ** means he's not, but receives serious consideration from stathead types, and three means he's not yet eligible. There are another 5 with OPS+ more than 100, of whom Gehringer is a HOFer, and the other four, Vidro, Samuel, DeShields, and Knoblauch all appeared to have a chance at some point, but certainly don't now.
The guys in this crowd who were well regarded defensively are almost all in the Hall of Fame. I know he's only been in the league three years, but I'd give Pedroia a 70% chance or so of making the Hall based on his comparables. I know he doesn't look as good in the actual "comparable players" category on BBRef, but that ignores the point that he's better than most of his comparables there, and the ones who are better than him are no-brainer HOFers like Carew.
He'll be hist!
He'll be hist!
He'll be history!
And Jim Rice will glorify his naaaaaaaame!
He'll be a bust, be a bust, be a bust
In the Hall of Fame!
Well, it does sound like something Steve Phillips would say.
Granted, Manny is a first-tier HoFer, but still. A certain NL team based in Queens has as many as three or four possible future HoFers and has suffered three of the most embarrassing seasons ever right in a row.
Not any more, he's not.
Ellsbury is there if you squint. You basically have to assume he turns into Johnny Damon with 50-70 steals a year to get there but it's not entirely out of the question.
We've seen enough of Ellsbury, I think, to say that the upside is Kenny Lofton, and that's actually not too much of a reach. Ellsbury just needs to develop his plate discipline a little more. I think if Lofton had stuck with one or two teams, instead of playing for a record or near record number of teams, he'd be getting some consideration.
Really? Are you going to go there, now, Shooty? It's too early in the morning for this.
(kidding)
I know you're kidding, but the writers have set their precedent. I'm not the gatekeeper! Clearly, by just production, he's a HOFer. I'm actually looking forward to the HOF voters trying to sort out the bad steroid users from the un-bad steroid users from the ingenues who mistakenly "tried" HGH from the guys "everybody knows" did roids and are hung for it from the guys "everybody knows" did roids but were likable so we'll give them a pass. It's going to be great fun.
Also, I guess I'm one of the few left who just thinks he's awesome.
Like hell it is. It's going to be pure agony trying to work through all the tortured reasonings of all the local columnsists arguing that their guys only did it to keep up with those villains on the other franchises, so it's okay to vote for the guy who used to play for the local nine, but every one else who used should be subject to repeated sack beatings.
You just have to put yourself in the right mindset. Think of the coming HOF-steroid debates as an absurdist comedy about the human condition. It's going to make for good theater.
The local columnist is Richard Griffin. When dealing with his writing, there is no such thing as the right mindset.
The local columnist is Richard Griffin. When dealing with his writing, there is no such thing as the right mindset.Was he the guy who wrote the "White Jays" column?
That was a different idiot - Geoff Baker - who is now covering the Mariners. We in the Toronto area have been treated to a wide variety of dumb columnists over the years.
You're a little turned on, aren't you?
Lefty. Power pitcher. Plays for a rather sensible organization meaning plenty of win opportunities and likely to keep him thanks to ridiculous cash intake.
John Lester could win some awards, pitch well in big game situations and come age 40 look around and see 200 plus wins on his resume and a few rings........
#10's a good post.
How about "Abandon all hope, ye who enter here"?
The 2008 Yankees could set a record for most HOFers, I think, when it's all said and done. By rough likelihood of getting elected...
Jeter
A-Rod
Rivera
Ivan Rodriguez
Posada
Pettitte
Mussina
Damon
- - - -
Cano
Abreu
Hughes/Chamberlain/Random 'Wow, I had no idea he started his career with the '08 Yankees' player
Growing up, the record was 8, set by those '27-'28 Philadelphia Athletic teams. I don't know if that's changed... but I'd say there's an outside chance this team breaks it.
Y'know, this is going to be terrible for the Hall of Fame. It's going to change from being a collection of the game's greatest players to a collection of really good players but only those we think are pure of heart.
In ten years, it's entirely possible that the Baseball Hall of Fame will be a huge joke.
In ten years, it's entirely possible that the Baseball Hall of Fame will be a huge joke.
Especially when a few of the pure of heart guys get some kind of Kirby Puckett like curtain-raising after their election.
Beckett: 10%
Lester: 5%
Bucholz: 1%
Papelbon: 5%
BWagner: 20%
Youkilis: 1%
Pedroia: 5%
Lowell: 0%
Ellsbury: 1%
Bay: 0%
Drew: <5%
Varitek: <1%
Ortiz: <1%
VMartinez: <5%
So, I guess my answer is Wagner.
I personally think the level of twisting operatic drama you guys are ascribing to the HOF is not going to approach this.
So far, they've only had to deal with Mac and he's been easy for them since he's been branded with the big S.
If Piazza's bacne becomes an issue (I'd say it wouldn't, but with the low standards and irrational thinking of the anti-steroid zealots one never knows) that will add to the idiocy.
Assisting in the comedy is the likelihood that whomever wrote that actually thinks Gardner is good.
Your girl chases you away from the TV so that she can watch Ghosthunter shows. You could obviously be manlier.
Those are strategic retreats, my friend. When you have a girl you don't have to inflate, things get tricky...
Because she's fed up with your clumsy advances?
I'm not sure I like where this is going. Roy Halladay: Yankee Douche.
That should get you off the trail...
To my sadness, that's basically what I'm expecting to happen after the 2010 season. I'm just hoping that his Yankee-induced douchiness stays at an acceptable level (like Bernie), and he doesn't go ultra-douchy (like Paul O'Neill).
It'll do for now.
I'm impressed you can tell them apart. A Yankee Douche is a Yankee Douche to me.
1932 Yankees had 9.
I keep hearing all these radio ads for a pill that is supposed to help your manhood by making you longer and thicker. They don't say what part of you becomes longer and thicker, though. The only thing I can think of is your neck, and who wants to look like Merton Hanks?
I think it defied one or more laws of physics than Merton Hanks didn't get killed playing football.
Hutcheson, actually, is the CEO of this company, so you're right, it is the neck.
McGwire is no precedent; each case has its own life, and each passing year brings change to voter's perceptions.
While you may think you know something there, at the end of the day you'll just have to wait and see what happens like the rest of us.
EDIT: not meaning to sound snarky : )
Yes sir!
edit: Heh.
I think the ARod revelation of steroid use was the turning point in all of this steroids silliness. You cannot keep several all-time great players out of the HOF without reducing it to a laughingstock.
I suspect if many voters had their way they'd draw a line in the sand at ARod -- "He confessed" -- and let him in. But that rationale makes no sense. A confession may show "character" in some form, but if the problems with steroids are that they are cheating/turn the game into a mockery/are unfair/pressure other players/unlevel the playing field/make a travesty of the record books/whatever other such silliness, I don't see how a confession solves any of those problems.
Especially since he only confessed after he got caught. It's not like he came forward with the confession before the supporting information came to light.
Yes, but all that really matters to the anti-steroids zealots is that the player confesses, in some form. They want the player on his knees in front of them, begging for their forgiveness.
That is all this is about, that is all this has ever been about.
Counting managers (both theirs and guys later inducted as managers), so did the 1926 New York Giants, who finished in 5th place in the 8-team NL with a losing record (74-77). And yes, Frankie Frisch was on that team; how did you guess?
I'm really, really hoping Mac doesn't give them the satisfaction. And I admire LaRussa for saying #### it, McGwire is my guy. (This is all independent on my feelings about steroids. If I could wave a magic wand, I'd get rid of them in the context of their PED use in a second.)
Agreed. Some form of "Go F yourselves" would be more than appropriate.
Only if he's looking to make the situation worse. Right now, it's a matter of "Why won't he talk about it?" If he goes with your route, it'll become "Why won't that roid-raging ####### talk about it?"
He's probably a lot happier with the former.
Sure, but that includes only one legitimate HOF player in his prime (Frisch himself), plus some of Frisch's crony picks, plus Mel Ott, who was a legitimate HOFer, but was only 17, plus McGraw, the manager. Bill Terry was on that team, too, and I think he was a legit choice (although towards the bottom of a "Big Hall"), but didn't play much because he was blocked by George Kelly. It's not like they were all crony picks. The team wasn't very good because almost none of the real HOFers were having years anything like their best years, but they did have three legitimate HOFers, plus a legit HOF manager.
On what planet is he not already in the latter boat?
We all know (and Jim Rice certainly knows) that Jim Rice is at least a near-inner-circle HoFer if not right there next to Ted Williams.
So clearly it is illogical that the current Red Sox could have a player better than Rice. Therefore any potential HoFer has to be worse than Rice. Youkilis, Pedroia, Lowell, Bay, Drew, Martinez, Beckett, Lester, Papelbon -- those guys could all end up better than Rice but we have already established that one player better than Rice is a logical impossibility, 9 is clearly laughable.
Reductio ad absurdum -- Ellsbury is the only logical choice.
All I wanna know is how a team so stuffed with future HoFers went down with hardly a whimper.
Ask Shooty -- it's my understanding he's an expert on going down without a whimper.
Jeez, Walt. You've crossed the line, man. You crossed the line!
Fixed that for me.
What it means is that when using AAS your levels of testosterone are so high from exogenous sources that your body will shut down production of indogenous testosterone. In other words, your testicles stop producing testosterone and may even lose some size although this is generally gained back on cessation of the exogenous use unless you're a complete screwup. HCG is used on cycle to give a "jolt" to the testicles, it forces them to produce testosterone on their own. By doing this it maintains size and allows post cycle indogenous production of testosterone to recover more quickly.
It always comes back to clubbing seals in sacks with you Canadians, doesn't it?
I have reread the question about twenty times now, yet Jacoby Ellsbury is still not the name I would have blurted out. Not even close.
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