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Monday, January 04, 2016

OTP - 2016 January 4: Mark Your Calendar: Must-Know Political Dates for 2016

With debates over policy issues like immigration, personal issues like which candidate is “low energy,” and fundamental arguments about who is or isn’t qualified to be commander-in-chief, the nuts and bolts of how a candidate is chosen can get lost in all the noise.

But here are the critical dates to guide you through this chaotic nominating contest.

MLB starts April 3rd.

Bitter Mouse, Space Tyrant Posted: January 04, 2016 at 07:55 AM | 2323 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics, schedule

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   1. Rickey! Filipino Diving Team Posted: January 04, 2016 at 09:38 AM (#5125074)
Often, the authorities show great patience--see the Branch Davidian thing--and sometimes there are untoward, even catastrophic, results because of the delay of action. Sometimes, though, they are hair-trigger in their respons (usually the local/state governments), though, and that, too, can go wrong.


This thing is regularly being compared to Waco (Branch Davidians) and Ruby Ridge, but those aren't particularly apt comparisons. Koresh and the Weavers, as crackpot and loony and morally compromised as they may have been, were "occupying" their private homes. These guys have occupied a federal building. They have literally made the first "invasion" move of "war." This isn't a family or a cult living their crazy out and getting shot down for it. This is an armed insurrection against the federal government because they don't like paying grazing fees.
   2. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 09:41 AM (#5125078)
When precisely have I ever suggested armed sedition, Jason?

Your apologies for the Ferguson rioters weren't pretty, particularly since, in contrast to Bundy and his fellow wackos, they destroyed civilian property in addition to police vehicles.

And as BDC pointed out, Sammy, these guys in the woods are occupying a place that wasn't even open for the holidays. I'm not quite ready to equate it to the storming of the Bastille.
   3. BDC Posted: January 04, 2016 at 09:45 AM (#5125080)
Proud to be carrying the tradition of modern liberalism into another calendar year :)
   4. Rickey! Filipino Diving Team Posted: January 04, 2016 at 09:48 AM (#5125081)
Your apologies for the Ferguson rioters weren't pretty, particularly since, in contrast to Bundy and his fellow wackos, they destroyed civilian property in addition to police vehicles.


This comes back down to the "if it doesn't inconvenience the cocktail circuit on the east coast, it doesn't really matter" thing you love so well.

My apologies for the Ferguson rioters were simple to note that when you kill people over and over again, they will eventually break. If the department of land management were KILLING ranchers in the mountain west over grazing fees, I'd be far more sympathetic to their cause. It being the case that they're not, they're simply charging grazing fees for use of public lands, it's a bone stupid comparison on your part to Ferguson.

I'll also go ahead and dismiss your clinging onto the vogue "but they're not even looting/rioting" stupidity that's bubbling up from your side of the aisle to try to draw a distinction here. They invaded federal land with force of arms. They are occupying that land. That's actually worse than looting and rioting, which are mere property crimes that can be reimbursed and rebuilt. Sedition doesn't work that way.
   5. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 09:50 AM (#5125082)
These guys have occupied a federal building. They have literally made the first "invasion" move of "war." This isn't a family or a cult living their crazy out and getting shot down for it. This is an armed insurrection against the federal government because they don't like paying grazing fees.

And if these guys were named Rouhani and Zarif and Khamenei, you'd want to sell them computer software and tech support.
   6. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 09:52 AM (#5125084)
My apologies for the Ferguson rioters were simple to note that when you kill people over and over again, they will eventually break.

LOL. You really are apologizing for Astroturf scum.
   7. Rickey! Filipino Diving Team Posted: January 04, 2016 at 09:53 AM (#5125085)
And of course, nothing I said in response to Ferguson or any other BLM related event comes close to armed sedition. This is just Jason desperately trying to spin and pretend that these guys are not only on his side of the aisle, but relatively close in spirit and rhetoric to the current front runner for his party's nomination.
   8. Rickey! Filipino Diving Team Posted: January 04, 2016 at 09:55 AM (#5125086)
LOL. You really are apologizing for Astroturf scum.


Poor little Jason. His cab ride in Manhattan took 20 minutes longer than usual.

And if these guys were named Rouhani and Zarif and Khamenei, you'd want to sell them computer software and tech support.


1. If Rouhani, Zarif and Khamenei occupy federal buildings in outright sedition against the US government, I'd fully support droning their asses too. If they occupy the ass end of a desert in Mess-o-potamia, well, #### 'em. Not my fleas; not my circus.

2. I don't do tech support.
   9. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:00 AM (#5125091)
From the previous thread....

What do you mean by "pervasive", and how does this phenomenon manifest itself? By refusing military service? By not voting for Republicans? By not ignoring racism?

Are you kidding me? The term "African-American" alone is divisive. If you're anything past first generation immigrant, you're an American, plain and simple. As my late wife would say: "Don't call me African-American, I'm a black girl from Queens."


At least that's progress of sorts, given that it wasn't that long ago that conservatives (including some blacks) were saying that "black" itself was a divisive term, and would have lectured your late wife for even identifying herself that way.

And what do you make of other (white) Americans who claim that the Obama presidency is "illegitimate", and who are in a permanent state of funk against the very idea of government? Why are only blacks subject to this silly litmus test of certified Americanism?

You're reaching beyond the scope of this specific piece we're discussing. I never claimed Blacks have cornered the market on lunacy. That said, I don't see many Whites running around demanding to be called "European-Americans". Maybe you do.


You're really hung up on nomenclature, aren't you? And BTW what's with capitalizing "Blacks" and "Whites"? That former practice used to be a trademark of black nationalists BITD, and it's strange to now see it being used by a conservative.

Pandering to that only makes things worse, not better. Both my wife and GF related many stories to me about being labeled "not black enough" by other blacks for such horrible sins as speaking proper English.

That's been around forever, and I agree it's silly and pernicious, but it's hardly as widespread as all that. And in many ways it's little more than a particular offshoot of the sort of pervasive anti-intellectualism that permeates our popular culture and one of our major political parties---witness the rise of Donald Trump, for Christ's sake, not to mention the mocking of scientists and the disparagement of teachers the minute they dare to stand up for themselves and organize.

Sure, not widespread at all (/eyeroll).


To the extent that it is a problem, it still pales in comparison with the overall anti-intellectual bias of our culture as a whole, as reflected rather perfectly in the campaign of Donald Trump.

I know many of you civil rights era liberals are filled with the best of intentions, but the results of your actions like the Great Society have been disastrous for the Black community.

I'll do you the favor of not taking this literally, since nobody with a sentient brain could seriously argue that blacks were better off in the days before the Johnson administration, when beyond formal Jim Crow they barely made a dent in terms of employment within virtually any sector of the larger society.** Please correct me if I'm mistaken.


You're sadly mistaken. Do your own homework and look up historical Black employment rates. Acording to economist Walter Williams, From 1900 to 1954, blacks were more active than whites in the labor market. Until about 1960, black male labor force participation in every age group was equal to or greater than that of whites.


Well, gee, let's bring back slavery while we're at it. There was full employment for blacks under that system.

I'm well aware of Williams' and Sowell's arguments about labor force participation, but before 1960 (or somewhat later), that participation led to little more than dead end jobs. Count the number of blacks in 1960 in the following NON-JIM CROW** professions:

Congress and state legislatures
Policy-making executive branch positions
Judges---federal, state, and local
Media---radio and TV
Lawyers**
Independent business owners**
Advertising
Accounting
Professional sports
Craft unions

And so on. Outside of a handful of athletes and entertainers, and in companies with strong CIO unions, there were virtually no blacks admitted to the overall workforce in any but the most menial positions. This is a point that conservatives never seem to address or even acknowledge when they cite Williams' numbers.

** There were plenty of black lawyers and businessmen back then, to be sure, but 99% of them were restricted to 10% of the overall client and customer pool. The exceptions to this were so rare that they would rate a feature writeup in EBONY, filed under the unspoken category of Exotica.

You and your GF can wring your hands in horror at the Salon author's thoughts, but her perhaps overwrought angst in a moment of despair is a symptom of a larger issue of invisibility, not a symptom of any inherent hostility to whites. That clueless roommate she was reacting to poses a far greater problem to our country's future than anything that author wrote in reaction to it.

** Maybe you should ask your GF what she thinks of the Sheet Metal Workers' Union.


Sure buddy, whatever you say. Being ignorant of a specific current event now earns one the designation of the all encompassing "clueless".


Yeah, I'd say that not knowing anything about an event that's been dominating the news cycles for days on end would be a pretty good indication of that mental state.

And I'll pass thank-you-very-much at wasting her time with that link. Gee, a corrupt union! Whoever woulda thunk it?!?!

Except that the problem with that union---and countless other craft unions both in the North and South---wasn't corruption. It was racism, pure and simple, as the facts brought out by that lawsuit clearly demonstrated. Your late wife's father would have been out of luck trying to get hired in that profession, and any protestations of his American citizenship wouldn't have done him a damn bit of good.



   10. Morty Causa Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:06 AM (#5125094)
One eye-opening (for me at any rate) stat. 15% of those killed were black males between the ages of 15 and 34.

So, 85% weren't?
   11. Morty Causa Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:08 AM (#5125095)
Are there stats on how many cops were killed/injured? Broken down by race/ethnicity?
   12. BrianBrianson Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:14 AM (#5125101)
You could try the obvious source. I count 69, including 11 heart attacks (Whisky Tango Foxtrot?) and 20 explicitly labelled as "accidents". So, I'd say realistically 38. On-duty cops are killing people at about 30X the rate people are killing on-duty cops.

Which jives with 27 feloniously killed (per the FBI) in '13, and 51 feloniously killed (per the FBI) in '14.
   13. Rickey! Filipino Diving Team Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:15 AM (#5125103)
I count 69, including 11 heart attacks (Whisky Tango Foxtrot?)


If a cops shoots your kid in the park: NOT MURDER.

If you make a cop's fat ass run, and he has a heart attack in the process: MURDER.
   14. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:17 AM (#5125105)
Well Saudi Arabia indulged in judicial murder of a critic. You can't get wronger than that. On the other hand, Iran has done the same, just never anybody so prominent. So not worse in that respect unless you award extra points for the prominence of the victim.

And Jason, the Iranian response was a bad one to a worse action by the Saudis.

As you note, the Saudis execute lots of folks, albeit not as many per capita as the Iranians. The individual in question here wasn't even an Iranian citizen. Others beheaded that day included an al-Qaeda spiritual leader.

In contrast, sacking embassies/consulates are acts of war. It doesn't get worse than that.
   15. zonk Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:19 AM (#5125106)
I am occupying my local coffee shop because the prices went up after the first of the year. I don't like paying an extra nickel.

Can someone please provide me the number of Sean Hannity so he can fete me and my freedom loving?
   16. BrianBrianson Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:19 AM (#5125107)
Actually, it's kind of a weird separation, but it wasn't intended to be "cops killed by people" - Cops who heroically drown trying to save people and stuff are there too. So, yeah, figure 40 +- 10 is typical.
   17. Rickey! Filipino Diving Team Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:19 AM (#5125108)
Elaborate, Ron. The Saudis execute lots of folks, albeit not as many per capita as the Iranians. The individual in question here wasn't even an Iranian citizen. In contrast, sacking embassies/consulates are acts of war.


Note how, when it suits his purposes (war with Iran) Jason is super keen on making nuanced distinctions between things like "executing dissidents and political prisoners en masse" and "sacking embassies/consulates." But when it doesn't suit his purposes (electing an administration more likely to support war with Iran) Jason can't really tell a difference between student sit-ins and armed sedition.
   18. Rickey! Filipino Diving Team Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:21 AM (#5125109)
Actually, it's kind of a weird separation, but it wasn't intended to be "cops killed by people" - Cops who heroically drown trying to save people and stuff are there too. So, yeah, figure 40 +- 10 is typical.


Generally speaking, those "killed in the line of duty" stats are stacked because the families get more pay out from insurance/unions if the cop dies "in the line of duty."
   19. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:21 AM (#5125110)
Note how, when it suits his purposes (war with Iran) Jason is super keen on making nuanced distinctions between things like "executing dissidents and political prisoners en masse" and "sacking embassies/consulates." But when it doesn't suit his purposes (electing an administration more likely to support war with Iran) Jason can't really tell a difference between student sit-ins and armed sedition.

Ferguson wasn't a sit-in, Sparky.
   20. Rickey! Filipino Diving Team Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:22 AM (#5125111)
Ferguson wasn't a sit-in, Sparky.


It also wasn't armed sedition, you idiot.
   21. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:23 AM (#5125112)
ICYMI, Ron:
38. Whereas there is no more fundamental prerequisite for the conduct of relations between States than the inviolability of diplomatic envoys and embassies, so that throughout history nations of all creeds and cultures have observed reciprocal obligations for that purpose; and whereas the obligations thus assumed, notably those for assuring the personal safety of diplomats and their freedom from prosecution, are essential, unqualified, and inherent in their representative character and their diplomatic function;
   22. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:25 AM (#5125113)
It also wasn't armed sedition, you idiot.

And yet, Bubbles, they have yet to threaten the general public.
   23. BDC Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:26 AM (#5125114)
I don't do tech support

The mantra of American industry :)
   24. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:27 AM (#5125117)
I am occupying my local coffee shop because the prices went up after the first of the year. I don't like paying an extra nickel.

Can someone please provide me the number of Sean Hannity so he can fete me and my freedom loving?

Do what you must but leave the bathroom alone.
   25. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:31 AM (#5125119)
What's happening in Oregon? I heard some guy tried to take over a building or something?
   26. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:35 AM (#5125123)
I'm Donald Trump and I approve this message.

Wow. When was the last time a political ad uttered the words, "...until we can figure out what's going on?"
   27. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:36 AM (#5125124)
Except that the problem with that union---and countless other craft unions both in the North and South---wasn't corruption. It was racism, pure and simple, as the facts brought out by that lawsuit clearly demonstrated. Your late wife's father would have been out of luck trying to get hired in that profession, and any protestations of his American citizenship wouldn't have done him a damn bit of good.

Have you ever thought for a second about what it must be like to be his late black wife and black girlfriend? Maybe you should ask them what they think about the issue.
   28. bobm Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:37 AM (#5125125)
Cops who heroically drown trying to save people and stuff are there too.

Nomar can't be everywhere all the time. :)
   29. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:38 AM (#5125126)
And if Washington had adopted a hands-on attitude re: Syria four years ago, we would have been able to work with the Saudis to ensure that they were backing only non-jihadis.


A new year and it's comforting to know Jason still has not learned a single damn thing.
   30. Rickey! Filipino Diving Team Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:40 AM (#5125128)
And yet, Bubbles, they have yet to threaten the general public.


I'm sure if they were to delay the Metro you'd be ready to execute them.
   31. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:42 AM (#5125129)
How Hillary Clinton's former chief of staff helped a Democratic bundler:
Hillary Clinton’s former chief of staff Cheryl Mills did a favor for a former Bill Clinton staffer-turned-Hillary campaign donor, giving the auto dealer, who was heavily invested in China, access to a bilateral U.S.-China event at the State Department where he could promote his private business interests.

In spring 2011, Mills invited Thomas “Mack” McLarty, Bill Clinton’s former White House chief of staff, to attend the official dinner after McLarty asked for access because of “our substantial family investment in the automotive sector (including electric vehicle development in China).”

McLarty later detailed in a thank you email to Mills that the dinner allowed him to connect with both Hillary Clinton and Chinese leaders who deal with the private sector — which, he added, “ is of course important to … our automotive activities in China.” Mills forwarded the email to Clinton.
   32. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:44 AM (#5125131)
A new year and it's comforting to know Jason still has not learned a single damn thing.

Non-responsive. (As usual.)
   33. Rickey! Filipino Diving Team Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:48 AM (#5125133)
How Hillary Clinton's former chief of staff helped a Democratic bundler:


Is this supposed to be a shock? A surprise? Something that disqualifies HRC for the office? Because I don't see much of any of those things. It's just Washington Village business as usual. Your (e) appellation does the same damned thing every single day for the GOP(e). So, unless you're backing outside candidates what do you think this means? You're not backing Trump or Sanders, so obviously you want to pretend that this is something unique and special case to Hillary. But no one with an ounce of sense takes that position seriously.

Also, for the new year, perhaps trying to engage people in discussion. Punch yourself in the nuts every time you throw out a Kehoskie-esque "LOL" or a SBB-level "non-responsive." Grow the #### up.
   34. The Good Face Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:51 AM (#5125134)
How Hillary Clinton's former chief of staff helped a Democratic bundler:


This might be the least surprising thing I've ever heard.
   35. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:55 AM (#5125137)
This thing is regularly being compared to Waco (Branch Davidians) and Ruby Ridge, but those aren't particularly apt comparisons. Koresh and the Weavers, as crackpot and loony and morally compromised as they may have been, were "occupying" their private homes. These guys have occupied a federal building. They have literally made the first "invasion" move of "war." This isn't a family or a cult living their crazy out and getting shot down for it. This is an armed insurrection against the federal government because they don't like paying grazing fees.

Ummmm, Koresh and his followers killed 4 ATF agents trying to execute a search warrant.
   36. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:58 AM (#5125140)
Ummmm, Koresh and his followers killed 4 ATF agents trying to execute a search warrant.

"What's happening in Waco? I heard some guy was just hanging out at home with some friends or something?"
   37. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:59 AM (#5125142)
Also, for the new year, perhaps trying to engage people in discussion.

Solemnly intones the guy who routinely chirps out loud about pretending to put people on ignore.
   38. Morty Causa Posted: January 04, 2016 at 10:59 AM (#5125143)
35:

Yeah. Then forced a prolonged standoff, holding women and children hostages, where violence, death, and injury became almost inevitable.
   39. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:15 AM (#5125153)
Is this supposed to be a shock? A surprise? Something that disqualifies HRC for the office? Because I don't see much of any of those things.

Please list the names of the other Secretaries of State in our lifetimes who pulled these stunts. Take your time.
   40. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:17 AM (#5125155)
Also, for the new year, perhaps trying to engage people in discussion. Punch yourself in the nuts every time you throw out a Kehoskie-esque "LOL" or a SBB-level "non-responsive." Grow the #### up.

If the slime you spew is how you describe "engag[ing] people in discussion," then I stand proudly with Joe K and SBB.
   41. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:17 AM (#5125156)
Solemnly intones the guy who routinely chirps out loud about pretending to put people on ignore.

Responsive. :)
   42. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:20 AM (#5125159)
Ummmm, Koresh and his followers killed 4 ATF agents trying to execute a search warrant.

To Sam, that may be a feature, not a bug.
   43. Ron J Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:22 AM (#5125161)
#21 Sure. Iran didn't meet their duty. And that's likely to affect them in the long run. Bahrain won't be the only nation to react to this.
   44. BrianBrianson Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:22 AM (#5125163)
Invited business leaders to trade talks with other nations to promote their businesses in said countries? Literally all of them, Jason. And assisting American businesses in foreign marketplaces is probably by far the most important role of the State Department.
   45. Mefisto Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:23 AM (#5125164)
A new year and it's comforting to know Jason still has not learned a single damn thing.


Patience. Give him another Friedman Unit and I'm sure we'll see significant improvement.
   46. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:23 AM (#5125166)
#31 -- what exactly is the issue here? Inviting the guy to a dinner is hardly a crime, and part of the SOS's job is promoting US business interests in other countries. I don't see any claim that there was some sort of quid pro quo. The fact that he's a democratic donor and friend of the Clintons isn't particularly interesting.

edit: coke to Brian
   47. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:26 AM (#5125171)
Your apologies for the Ferguson rioters weren't pretty, particularly since, in contrast to Bundy and his fellow wackos, they destroyed civilian property in addition to police vehicles.
And, if I recall correctly, he did the same thing with respect to the Baltimore rioters.
   48. zonk Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:31 AM (#5125175)
Of course, I'm pretty sure the arrests in both Ferguson and Baltimore were copious... if we're looking for differences.
   49. BDC Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:31 AM (#5125176)
other Secretaries of State in our lifetimes who pulled these stunts

Well, that's an arbitrary endpoint. For all we know Frederick T. Frelinghuysen used to have his own non-government issue fleet of carrier pigeons and Philander C. Knox installed a private pneumatic-tube system in his gazebo.
   50. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:33 AM (#5125178)
My apologies for the Ferguson rioters were simple to note that when you kill people over and over again, they will eventually break.
Unless they're zombies, they'll probably break the first time you kill them.
If the department of land management were KILLING ranchers in the mountain west over grazing fees, I'd be far more sympathetic to their cause. It being the case that they're not, they're simply charging grazing fees for use of public lands, it's a bone stupid comparison on your part to Ferguson.
OccupyMalheur's issue isn't grazing fees.
I'll also go ahead and dismiss your clinging onto the vogue "but they're not even looting/rioting" stupidity that's bubbling up from your side of the aisle to try to draw a distinction here. They invaded federal land with force of arms.
They occupied a building with force of nobody-else-being-there. They may have had weapons, but they did not use them, either by firing them or by threatening to do so. You might as well say that they invaded federal land by force of cell phones or force of baseball caps.
They are occupying that land. That's actually worse than looting and rioting, which are mere property crimes that can be reimbursed and rebuilt. Sedition doesn't work that way.
You've talked yourself into arguing that trespassing is worse than burning down a building, which is SBB-grade stupid.
   51. Random Transaction Generator Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:36 AM (#5125181)
I can't decide if my favourite name for the Oregon idiots is "Vanilla ISIS" or "Y'all-Qaeda".
   52. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:36 AM (#5125182)
Invited business leaders to trade talks with other nations to promote their businesses in said countries? Literally all of them, Jason. And assisting American businesses in foreign marketplaces is probably by far the most important role of the State Department.
To a bilateral diplomatic meeting at the State Department? No way Jose, you're thinking of another agency. It's called Commerce.
   53. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:37 AM (#5125183)
I can't decide if my favourite name for the Oregon idiots is "Vanilla ISIS" or "Y'all-Qaeda".

You insult Oregonians of all political persuasions and social backgrounds if you think they go around saying "y'all."
   54. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:40 AM (#5125184)
So let's sum up. One could be sane and grounded and simply observe that the Oregon yokels are armed trespassers who should be captured, arrested, and jailed.

But, no -- that's not good enough. To the hard Kossian left, the people are white and right-wing ... so their actions, definitionally, can't just be weird and bumbling and the hard Kossian left just has to show everyone the true nature of the people they've been doomed to share a polity with, and the danger they're nobly fighting against every day ... so the bumbling, hapless proles are therefore not just bumbling, hapless proles -- but instead are engaged in "armed sedition." Because, yes, any time someone trespasses in a federal building with some kind of grievance, it's Fort Sumter. Obviously.

You see, this weird and maladjusted extremism is the trouble with our politics today. It's not remotely hard to see why people would want to completely tune it out in favor of more important things. Like hockey. Or macrame.
   55. BrianBrianson Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:41 AM (#5125185)
Commerce is internal. External business relations fall under the Bureau of Economic and Business Affairs, which is part of the State Department.
   56. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:45 AM (#5125187)
So does the author of the "fifth best" essay of 2015 have an obligation to know about the hapless, "seditious" proles in Oregon, and to demonstrate her knowledge if some loon at a Saturday night party wants to have a "conscious conversation" with her about it?(*)

Inquiring minds want to know.

(*) If any such loon runs into me over Saturday night cocktails, and starts droning on about the "armed seditionists," I'll be the guy sidling down to the other end of the bar. Hopefully, Murray Chass or someone more interesting will be there to greet me.
   57. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:46 AM (#5125188)
Commerce has an external role as well (as does the USTR, who I believe reports directly to POTUS), but certainly the State Dep. has a very significant role in external trade and economic development.
   58. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:47 AM (#5125190)
Commerce is internal. External business relations fall under the Bureau of Economic and Business Affairs, which is part of the State Department.

That's just plain wrong. The International Trade Administration within Commerce is one of the most, if not the most plum* assignments for any political appointee. The external business relations office within the Bureau of Economic and Business Affairs is a mosquito on an elephant by comparison.

* Not to be confused with "easy."

EDIT: Typing in "trade.gov" takes the user to a Commerce site, not State.
   59. Lassus Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:50 AM (#5125193)
Errrrr.....
Everything ok in Utica this morning?


Did I miss Iran taking over Iraq?
   60. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:55 AM (#5125199)
Did I miss Iran taking over Iraq?

Apparently, you did. (In fairness, one might argue it's still a work in process.)
   61. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:56 AM (#5125200)
By the way, Jew here: minority everywhere except Israel. (Even in NY. I've had judges here schedule hearings on Rosh Hashanah.)

Well, there are a slew of Jews who are secular and to whom religious holidays and strictures mean nothing. Just as a curiosity, though, are there judges who give you problems with re-scheduling once they are apprised of the situation?
In NY, no. (Well, actually, once we got a lot of pushback from a judge in NY on that; we were quasi-co-counseling with another firm on a case -- quasi, because we represented different plaintiffs whose interests were aligned, rather than jointly representing plaintiffs -- and the judge basically said, "I don't feel like rescheduling it; you don't need to be here. Those other guys can handle this." She'd have moved it if we had insisted, but she encouraged us not to insist.) But out of NY, yeah, I've had difficulty before.

Sure, there are plenty of secular Jews, but Rosh Hashanah is one of the big two; even the laxest of Jews tend to attend on the High Holidays. Last survey I saw said about 80%, and I suspect the other 20% are JINO. Lots of Christians are secular, but nobody would schedule a hearing on Christmas.
   62. BDC Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:57 AM (#5125202)
bumbling, hapless

How do we know they're bumbling and hapless? It could have been an operation of surgical precision. One guy set up a tactical position behind the vending machines while another cleared the restrooms, a third secured the souvenir counter and a fourth commandeered the supply of refuge map-guides. To gather intelligence, the others watched the seven-minute orientation film repeatedly.
   63. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 11:59 AM (#5125204)
Often, the authorities show great patience--see the Branch Davidian thing-
That would be a radical interpretation of the text. There are many things one can say about the federal government's attack on the Branch Davidians, but 'patient' isn't one of them.
   64. zzz Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:01 PM (#5125207)
One last time: Stalin -> Hitler.


Explain.

Iran wouldn't be 'taking over' Iraq if we hadn't wiped out their opposition.
   65. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:02 PM (#5125208)
That's actually worse than looting and rioting, which are mere property crimes that can be reimbursed and rebuilt.


Not if, you know, people get hurt or killed amidst the looting and rioting.

Among other problems with this line of argument.
   66. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:03 PM (#5125210)
Have you ever thought for a second about what it must be like to be his late black wife
Well, the coffin is kind of confining. Not much to do in there, either.
   67. Lassus Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:04 PM (#5125213)
They may have had weapons, but they did not use them, either by firing them or by threatening to do so.

@IanKulgren: "I talked to Ryan Bundy on the phone again. He said they're willing to kill and be killed if necessary."

That sounds rather like a threat. Or legally, no? Is it only mostly a threat?

(And keep in mind, I have already stated they should be a. mocked, and then b. ignored.
   68. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:05 PM (#5125214)
How do we know they're bumbling and hapless? It could have been an operation of surgical precision. One guy set up a tactical position behind the vending machines while another cleared the restrooms, a third secured the souvenir counter and a fourth commandeered the supply of refuge map-guides. To gather intelligence, the others watched the seven-minute orientation film repeatedly.

Is this BDC 2.0? Was one of your New Year's resolutions to make us LOL -- in a good way, of course? :)
   69. Random Transaction Generator Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:08 PM (#5125218)
I can't decide if my favourite name for the Oregon idiots is "Vanilla ISIS" or "Y'all-Qaeda".

You insult Oregonians of all political persuasions and social backgrounds if you think they go around saying "y'all."


Well, I AM mocking those specific idiots and not Oregon in general, so I'm happy if it pisses those guys off...
   70. BrianBrianson Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:08 PM (#5125219)
Ah, yes, so I don't work in import/export and may have gotten the relative importance of the two departments wrong. The fundamental point stands, though, that the Sec. of State should be inviting business leaders to dinner when relevant foreign delegations come around.
   71. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:09 PM (#5125220)
Ummmm, Koresh and his followers killed 4 ATF agents trying to execute a search warrant.
Well.... not exactly. 4 ATF agents were killed trying to pretend to be big shot warrior cops conducting an armed raid for the cameras, when all they had to do was walk up to the door and knock. It has never been established who shot first, but there's some evidence it was the jackbooted thugs. (When the shooting started, Koresh called 911.)

The BD were loony, but they had never had any trouble with law enforcement before, and had cooperated with local police investigations in the past. And Koresh would regularly leave the place; he could have been arrested at any time if ATF weren't gung ho about kicking in doors with their paramilitary toys.
   72. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:12 PM (#5125222)
Well.... not exactly. 4 ATF agents were killed trying to pretend to be big shot warrior cops conducting an armed raid for the cameras, when all they had to do was walk up to the door and knock. It has never been established who shot first, but there's some evidence it was the jackbooted thugs. (When the shooting started, Koresh called 911.)

The BD were loony, but they had never had any trouble with law enforcement before, and had cooperated with local police investigations in the past. And Koresh would regularly leave the place; he could have been arrested at any time if ATF weren't gung ho about kicking in doors with their paramilitary toys.


No question the ATF bear a huge part of the blame. But, you can't ignore the 4 dead agents when analyzing the siege.

Even in the Davidians were 100% in the right in the initial confrontation, they needed to surrender to the FBI, and have it adjudicated in court.
   73. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:12 PM (#5125223)
Explain.

Iran wouldn't be 'taking over' Iraq if we hadn't wiped out their opposition.

With the exception of the New York Times and FDR emissary Harry Hopkins, it was pretty evident that Stalin was a monster, and that's before the crimes against the Ukrainians became known. Heck, even Neville Chamberlain in November 1938 understood that Germany was the greater threat.

You're new here but I've said many times that the dismantling of Baathist society after the military victory was a catastrophic decision.
   74. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:14 PM (#5125226)
Well, I AM mocking those specific idiots and not Oregon in general, so I'm happy if it pisses those guys off...

How do you know that sort of mockery won't aid their recruitment efforts?
   75. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:19 PM (#5125234)
Ah, yes, so I don't work in import/export and may have gotten the relative importance of the two departments wrong. The fundamental point stands, though, that the Sec. of State should be inviting business leaders to dinner when relevant foreign delegations come around.

No prob, Brian, but it is an unusual occurrence. And if you need additional evidence, why wouldn't someone desperately wanting to do business in China go see the then-Commerce Secretary (and former Washington Governor) Gary Locke, who happened to be a China expert before being nominated and would later succeed Jon Huntsman as our top envoy in Beijing?
   76. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:23 PM (#5125237)
With the exception of the New York Times and FDR emissary Harry Hopkins, it was pretty evident that Stalin was a monster

Jason, I think you mean FDR's ambassador Joseph Davies, not Hopkins. Davies' contribution to the war effort was his infamous Mission To Moscow, which was later made into a movie. Davies' most famous rationalization was when someone asked him why there were no fifth columnists in the Soviet army, to which he replied that they'd all been discovered and disposed of---a parroting of the Soviet line about the show trials of the 30's.
   77. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:24 PM (#5125238)
Lots of Christians are secular, but nobody would schedule a hearing on Christmas.


Because the court house is closed...
   78. BrianBrianson Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:27 PM (#5125239)
The link says the guy was already doing a lot of business in China, so "desperately wanting to do business in China" isn't a good characterisation. If he was looking for an informal contact, or a specific contact to help with a specific issue, maybe State had better connections. Maybe it was simply a matter of convenience. Maybe he did try the Department of Commerce and they weren't helpful.

If you want to show anything untowards happened with what appears superficially to be a run of the mill occurrence, you'd need to show that like, he got invited and no other business dudes or dudettes did. Or that State was systematically excluding Republican donors. Or something untowards. Businessdude who does a lot of business in China invited to a bilateral dinner is a "Man walks dog" story on its own.
   79. Greg K Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:29 PM (#5125240)
How do we know they're bumbling and hapless? It could have been an operation of surgical precision. One guy set up a tactical position behind the vending machines while another cleared the restrooms, a third secured the souvenir counter and a fourth commandeered the supply of refuge map-guides. To gather intelligence, the others watched the seven-minute orientation film repeatedly.

No battle plan survives contact with an empty room.
   80. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:30 PM (#5125241)
Jason, I think you mean FDR's ambassador Joseph Davies, not Hopkins. Davies' contribution to the war effort was his infamous Mission To Moscow, which was later made into a movie. Davies' most famous rationalization was when someone asked him why there were no fifth columnists in the Soviet army, to which he replied that they'd all been discovered and disposed of---a parroting of the Soviet line about the show trials of the 30's.

Thanks for the reminder about Davies, Andy, but Hopkins, a FDR BFF, was very much involved in US-Soviet diplomacy. For example, less than one month after the German invasion of the USSR, he became the first senior US official to meet with Stalin.
   81. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:41 PM (#5125245)
Thanks for the reminder about Davies, Andy, but Hopkins, a FDR BFF, was very much involved in US-Soviet diplomacy. For example, less than one month after the German invasion of the USSR, he became the first senior US official to meet with Stalin.

True, but in the public mind, it was Davies who was most associated with making excuses for Stalin, thanks in great part to the postwar Congressional hearings into Hollywood.

Henry Wallace was also quite the character, having written a National Geographic article on the Soviet arctic labor camp Kolyma, in which he compared it to the TVA!

(Now that's a comparison I'd picture more coming from Ben Carson, or from David, but not for quite the same reason. (smile))
   82. Greg K Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:45 PM (#5125249)
Henry Wallace was also quite the character, having written a National Geographic article on the Soviet arctic labor camp Kolyma, in which he compared it to the TVA!

I'd agree, Quebecois television is one of the gravest threats to modern society, but that comparison seems a bit harsh.
   83. Renegade JE (((Jason))) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:46 PM (#5125250)
The link says the guy was already doing a lot of business in China, so "desperately wanting to do business in China" isn't a good characterisation. If he was looking for an informal contact, or a specific contact to help with a specific issue, maybe State had better connections. Maybe it was simply a matter of convenience. Maybe he did try the Department of Commerce and they weren't helpful.

It fits a pattern with Hillary. I'm no fan of John Kerry (shock), but wouldn't blink an eyelash if this thing had happened on his watch. And yet, that's also the point: This stuff almost certainly isn't happening on his watch.
   84. Morty Causa Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:51 PM (#5125255)
That would be a radical interpretation of the text. There are many things one can say about the federal government's attack on the Branch Davidians, but 'patient' isn't one of them.

That's not radical. That's pretty much the conventional wisdom of anyone without an ax to grind. What?--55 days of begging and pleading is pretty patient, I think.
   85. Morty Causa Posted: January 04, 2016 at 12:59 PM (#5125258)
Well.... not exactly. 4 ATF agents were killed trying to pretend to be big shot warrior cops conducting an armed raid for the cameras, when all they had to do was walk up to the door and knock. It has never been established who shot first, but there's some evidence it was the jackbooted thugs. (When the shooting started, Koresh called 911.)

The BD were loony, but they had never had any trouble with law enforcement before, and had cooperated with local police investigations in the past. And Koresh would regularly leave the place; he could have been arrested at any time if ATF weren't gung ho about kicking in doors with their paramilitary toys.


That's all irrelevant and immaterial as to the dictates of service of process.

Since when do those the object of service of process have the right to call for a designer serice.--in retrospect, yet.

Haven't the courts address all the objections and claims? What was the disposition?

If Koresh was so amicable and amenable, why didn't he just accept service and open his doors? You're cutting lunatics a lot of slack here.
   86. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 01:01 PM (#5125259)
That's not radical. That's pretty much the conventional wisdom of anyone without an ax to grind. What?--55 days of begging and pleading is pretty patient, I think.

I believe he's talking about the initial, completely unnecessary, raid.
   87. Morty Causa Posted: January 04, 2016 at 01:06 PM (#5125265)
That also is debatable, as I wrote above. But, as to this, even if true, David needs to brush up on causation and the intervention thereof.
   88. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 01:09 PM (#5125266)
If Koresh was so amicable and amenable, why didn't he just accept service and open his doors? You're cutting lunatics a lot of slack here.
Because he wasn't given the chance. (Of course, we can't know for certain what he'd have done in the counterfactual in which the feds had approached it peacefully, but we do have the example of his cooperation with local law enforcement in the past.) Or do you mean after the initial attack by ATF? Perhaps he reasonably feared he'd be shot, given that he apparently reasonably believed that the ATF had unprovokedly started shooting at them. You excused the Tamir Rice shooting on the grounds that police aren't required to give people free shots at them; the same is true in reverse.
   89. Morty Causa Posted: January 04, 2016 at 01:15 PM (#5125270)
Or do you mean after the initial attack by ATF?

No, I mean the initial service when the servers were attacked.

55 days, every TV outlet in the country was there as his witness, and he was afraid to surrender to lawful authority? You keep making these dumb bankrupt arguments of the sort defense attorneys make all the time when their client is clearly guilty as charged, apparently because you, like them, don't have anything else.

Again, what did the judicial system decide on these matters, David?
   90. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 04, 2016 at 01:19 PM (#5125272)
As you note, the Saudis execute lots of folks, albeit not as many per capita as the Iranians.


2014 (per Amnesty International):

China (off the charts)
North Korea (unknown)
Iran 289 (officially announced, AI believes at least 454 more were actually conducted)
Saudi Arabia 90 (believed to be 150-160 in 2015),
Iraq 61, and
the USA 35 (gee what good company)

Most countries sentence far more people to death than they actually kill, in addition many countries sentence people to death, but never actually execute anyone.
Most (plurality) of (admitted) executions in Saudi Arabia and Iran are drug related.


The only European country that executed anyone (officially) in 2014 was Belarus.




   91. Fancy Pants with a clinging marmoset on his Handle Posted: January 04, 2016 at 01:23 PM (#5125275)
It fits a pattern with Hillary. I'm no fan of John Kerry (shock), but wouldn't blink an eyelash if this thing had happened on his watch.

You do realize that is beasically the definition of CDS, right? You are not helping your case here.
   92. Rickey! Filipino Diving Team Posted: January 04, 2016 at 01:28 PM (#5125282)
Solemnly intones the guy who routinely chirps out loud about pretending to put people on ignore.


No, ########. I put you on ignore. I decided to take you off of ignore. When I inevitably bore of your one-trick pony of stupidity again I may put you on ignore again. It's not that hard.
   93. Rickey! Filipino Diving Team Posted: January 04, 2016 at 01:30 PM (#5125283)
Ummmm, Koresh and his followers killed 4 ATF agents trying to execute a search warrant.


And yet, this event is worse. Ruby Ridge was a clear overstep by the ATF/FBI, I think. Waco was a ########### of stupidity but the Davidians got what they bought in that final accounting. This is a clear and obvious case of sedition by a group that has commandeered federal land and occupied it. This is closer to firing on Ft. Sumter than it is to Ruby Ridge.
   94. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 01:31 PM (#5125284)
55 days, every TV outlet in the country was there as his witness

Are you trying to suggest it dominated the news?
   95. Rickey! Filipino Diving Team Posted: January 04, 2016 at 01:32 PM (#5125285)
You've talked yourself into arguing that trespassing is worse than burning down a building


Sedition against the state itself is worse than burning down a private (and insured) property. This is not stupidity, David. This is basic civics. That you don't understand basic civics is very libertarian of you.
   96. Morty Causa Posted: January 04, 2016 at 01:33 PM (#5125287)
Are you trying to suggest it dominated the news?

It did, but, ignorant idiot that I was, I pretty much ignore all the hurrah at the time.
   97. Rickey! Filipino Diving Team Posted: January 04, 2016 at 01:33 PM (#5125288)
To Sam, that may be a feature, not a bug.


Jason. Lovebug. You are clearly not intellectually capable of understanding my personal politics.
   98. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 04, 2016 at 01:33 PM (#5125289)
55 days, every TV outlet in the country was there as his witness, and he was afraid to surrender to lawful authority?


He wasn't "afraid" he was just as paranoid and fanatical as the government said he was... of course that is part of what makes the ATF's initial approach so idiotic.

Waay Back in Law School we were taught that contrary to what you see in movies and TV there are two types of search warrants, "knock" and "no-knock"- and "knock" is the default- and you had students say, "but what if the criminal destroys the evidence?" and stuff like that, the prof asked, "anyone here a cop or knows any? what do cops think?" One guy raise his hand, "Serving a no knock warrant is a good way for someone to get shot."

Well the trouble is we've had this huge increase of police being outfitted with military style gear, the war on drugs and the enactment of various property forfeiture laws...

Despite his paranoia, the ATF could have seized Koresh at almost any time before the initial raid, the guy would go jogging off the compound without any bodyguards.
   99. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: January 04, 2016 at 01:33 PM (#5125290)
This is a clear and obvious case of sedition by a group that has commandeered federal land and occupied it. This is closer to firing on Ft. Sumter than it is to Ruby Ridge.

I'm already really into hockey.(*) Anyone know any good macrame stores?

(*) Ice, not field.
   100. Rickey! Filipino Diving Team Posted: January 04, 2016 at 01:34 PM (#5125292)
And, if I recall correctly, he did the same thing with respect to the Baltimore rioters.


The Baltimore "riots" were a created event for the sake of the press.
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