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Monday, March 14, 2016

OTP - 2016 March 14: No political baseball for Mets as team told to steer clear of talk about presidential race

Former Yankees outfielders Paul O’Neill and Johnny Damon endorsed Trump earlier this week. O’Neill attended a Trump rally on Tuesday in Florida, while Damon told the Daily News he supports his former “Celebrity Apprentice” boss’ vow to a build a wall along the border between the U.S. and Mexico and his immigration policies.

You can add former Yankees to the things I disavow :)

Bitter Mouse, Space Tyrant Posted: March 14, 2016 at 07:49 AM | 2677 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: mets, mets being mets, politics, yankees, yankees-no-fun-as-usual

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   1. Joe Bivens, Floundering Pumpkin Posted: March 14, 2016 at 09:44 AM (#5174617)
Let us begin:

Hitler murdered 12 million, not 6 million. Carry on.

Ray is a Trump supporter. I'm shocked. I'm afraid I'll never be able to take him seriously again. This is a blow.
   2. Blastin Posted: March 14, 2016 at 09:47 AM (#5174620)
I've seen a few friends support Trump. There are people running around committing violent acts that Trump is encouraging. I don't think Trump actually cares so much as he knows it sells, though. It's all the non-violent people handwaving this stuff away that irks me.
   3. Orange Julius Is the New Black Posted: March 14, 2016 at 09:48 AM (#5174621)
Hyperbole much? Democracy itself? The entire concept?



Donald Trump poses an unprecedented threat to American Democracy:

Trump may or may not have been forthright about citing safety fears in cancelling his speech Friday night in Chicago, and disrupting the speech may or may not have been the protesters’ goal. But it is clear that protesters views the cancellation of the speech as a victory, breaking out in cheers of “We stopped Trump!”

Preventing speakers one finds offensive from delivering public remarks is commonplace on campuses. Indeed, more than 300 faculty members at the University of Illinois-Chicago signed a letter asking the University administration not to allow Trump to speak. I polled my Twitter followers whether they consider disrupting Trump’s speeches an acceptable response to his racism. Two-thirds replied that it is. Obviously, this is not a scientific poll, but it indicates a far broader acceptance than I expected.

Because Trump is so grotesque, and because he has violated liberal norms himself so repeatedly, the full horror of the goal of stopping Trump from campaigning (as opposed to merely counter-demonstrating against him) has not come across. But the whole premise of democracy is that rules need to be applied in every case without regard to the merit of the underlying cause to which it is attached. If you defend the morality of a tactic against Trump, then you should be prepared to defend its morality against any candidate. Now imagine that right-wing protesters had set out to disrupt Barack Obama’s speeches in 2008. If you’re not okay with that scenario, you should not be okay with protesters doing it to Trump.


   4. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: March 14, 2016 at 09:48 AM (#5174622)
Since the OTP usually links to a vaguely baseball related article I was hoping you'd choose the one about Trump saying Pete Rose should be inducted to the Hall of Fame.
   5. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 09:51 AM (#5174623)
Trump saying Pete Rose should be inducted to the Hall of Fame.
One utterly shameless crook supports another. Least shocking news ever.
   6. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 09:52 AM (#5174624)
Because Trump is so grotesque, and because he has violated liberal norms himself so repeatedly, the full horror of the goal of stopping Trump from campaigning (as opposed to merely counter-demonstrating against him) has not come across. But the whole premise of democracy is that rules need to be applied in every case without regard to the merit of the underlying cause to which it is attached. If you defend the morality of a tactic against Trump, then you should be prepared to defend its morality against any candidate. Now imagine that right-wing protesters had set out to disrupt Barack Obama’s speeches in 2008. If you’re not okay with that scenario, you should not be okay with protesters doing it to Trump.

The first sentence isn't exactly right, but in general we clear-minded Michiganians pretty much all think alike. It's what separates us from people without such innate advantages.
   7. Orange Julius Is the New Black Posted: March 14, 2016 at 09:55 AM (#5174625)
Question of the day: Would you kill Clown Hitler before he gets his vulgar hands on the levers of death?
   8. bobm Posted: March 14, 2016 at 09:55 AM (#5174626)
On CNN, she said: "We're going to put a lot of coal miners and coal companies out of business."

It would make for a funner campaign if she cackled, and rubbed her hands together with glee while saying this.


Watch the clip. She said it so enthusiastically, all but ending it with "amirite?" until the absence of a crowd reaction reminded her where she was. Good save with the pretense of empathy afterwards.
   9. BDC Posted: March 14, 2016 at 09:55 AM (#5174627)
Disavowal checklist

Cole slaw
Reclining airline seats
Drones
Norway
Robert Byrd
ZIP Codes
HRC's coal-mining remarks
That one time my McGovernite high-school art teacher said he didn't think Barry Goldwater should be allowed to give commencement speeches
   10. Dan The Mediocre is one of "the rest" Posted: March 14, 2016 at 09:57 AM (#5174628)
Disavowal checklist

Cole slaw
Reclining airline seats
Drones
Norway
Robert Byrd
ZIP Codes
HRC's coal-mining remarks
That one time my McGovernite high-school art teacher said he didn't think Barry Goldwater should be allowed to give commencement speeches


I see nothing about putting ketchup on hot dogs....you monster!
   11. Bitter Mouse, Space Tyrant Posted: March 14, 2016 at 09:58 AM (#5174629)
Since the OTP usually links to a vaguely baseball related article I was hoping you'd choose the one about Trump saying Pete Rose should be inducted to the Hall of Fame.


I thought about it, but I think we talked about that article. Maybe I should have though.
   12. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: March 14, 2016 at 09:58 AM (#5174630)
   13. J. Sosa Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:00 AM (#5174632)
cross post from old thread

re: 2405

Precisely. I'm not sure why Trump's support is in any way hard to understand. It isn't a whole lot of fun to find out you are the egg shell when eggs are broken for the supposed greater good. It may indeed be for the greater good, but I think way too much breath has been wasted on why it is for the greater good. The egg shells are still broken. There are a lot of them. Probably not enough to win a general election, but Hillary is a pretty terrible candidate. I wouldn't bet anything of value on Trump becoming president but it is already too close for comfort. No worries though, the GOPe and NRO* are on it. Kevin Williamson in particular. In the Against Trump kerfuffle NRO settled for merely saying Trump has the wrong accent, which apparently was too subtle to get their message across about the people who support Trump. No worries on the subtlety front now.

I actually didn't take Trump seriously for a good while. It may sound odd, but the first time I knew he was a threat was when I saw a clip of him doing the Al Wilson bit a few months ago. I showed the clip to my children as an example of a contemporary cult of personality. It struck me at the time that stuff like that was going to be very powerful for a lot of voters. He is an authoritarian fascist (in the non Godwin sense). But talking to the little guy, giving him something to believe in, and giving him something to hate has always been the stock and trade of figures like Trump. Many of the people who vote for him have been failed miserably, and if someone had actually tried to help them or talk to them in a respectful manner maybe it wouldn't have gotten to this point. It is hard to convey how much contempt I have for people like Kevin Williamson. I can only imagine what the average Trump voter must feel towards that set.

*Using NRO as shorthand for GOPe thought.
   14. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:00 AM (#5174633)
Watch the clip. She said it so enthusiastically, all but ending it with "amirite?" until the absence of a crowd reaction reminded her where she was. Good save with the pretense of empathy afterwards.

The New York Times editorial board:

Democratic primary voters, on the other hand, after a substantive debate over real issues, have the chance to nominate one of the most broadly and deeply qualified presidential candidates in modern history.


LOL, emoji, LOL.
   15. Bitter Mouse, Space Tyrant Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:03 AM (#5174635)
I cam across this story and thought of Ray - He Rescued A Dog. Then The Dog Rescued Him

Sure, stories are nice, but do pets really improve human health? No less an authority than the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention says yes. Having a pet can help decrease blood pressure, cholesterol, triglycerides and feelings of loneliness, the CDC says, while increasing opportunities for exercise and socializing with other humans. And there's increasing evidence that interaction with pets helps people cope with challenges including PTSD, Alzheimer's and the end of life.
   16. Bitter Mouse, Space Tyrant Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:07 AM (#5174636)
Precisely. I'm not sure why Trump's support is in any way hard to understand. It isn't a whole lot of fun to find out you are the egg shell when eggs are broken for the supposed greater good.


Trump is a bit of a Rorschach Test, even more than most politicians, he seem to appear to what people want or hate, with little in between. He almost reminds me of Obama in that way, albeit a bizarro Obama.
   17. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:21 AM (#5174637)
Trump is the natural endgame of the in-your-face, all-trash-talk-all-the-time internet and civic culture we've built. He is 2016 America.
   18. The Good Face Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:23 AM (#5174639)
Many of the people who vote for him have been failed miserably, and if someone had actually tried to help them or talk to them in a respectful manner maybe it wouldn't have gotten to this point.


Some of us have been making essentially this point since last summer. Instead the GOP has spent decades alternating between ignoring and patronizing them while the Dems have treated them as Lebensunwertes Leben. A reckoning will not be postponed forever.
   19. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:24 AM (#5174640)
People tried to talk reasonably with the modern left, but they wouldn't listen, and now here we are.
   20. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:27 AM (#5174641)
From the previous thread:

I actually didn't take Trump seriously for a good while. It may sound odd, but the first time I knew he was a threat was when I saw a clip of him doing the Al Wilson bit a few months ago. I actually showed the clip to my children as an example of a contemporary cult of personality. It struck me at the time that stuff like that was going to be very powerful for a lot of voters. He is an authoritarian fascist (in the non Godwin sense). But talking to the little guy, giving him something to believe in, and giving him something to hate has always been the stock and trade of figures like Trump. Many of the people who vote for him have been failed miserably, and if someone had actually tried to help them or talk to them in a respectful manner maybe it wouldn't have gotten to this point. It is hard to convey how much contempt I have for people like Kevin Williamson. I can only imagine what the average Trump voter must feel towards that set.

I'd never heard of Kevin Williamson, but curious ############# that I am, I googled him in order to see why you'd say that.

And yeah, I can now see why you'd say that. He repeats every stereotype you hear about blacks, only he re-directs them at working class whites.

National Review Writer: Working-Class Communities ‘Deserve To Die’

National Review’s Kevin Williamson believes Donald Trump’s appeals to the white working class are “immoral” because that demographic’s way of life deserves to die out.

In a featured article for the prestigious conservative journal entitled “The Father-Fuhrer,” Williamson seeks to rebut criticism that he and other conservatives don’t articulate any policies that would appeal to Trump’s blue collar supporters.

Williamson, a long-time critic of The Donald, essentially agrees that he doesn’t support any policies or rhetoric directly tailored to the working-class — particularly about jobs being taken by outsourcing and immigration — because it would be wrong to do so.

“It is immoral because it perpetuates a lie: that the white working class that finds itself attracted to Trump has been victimized by outside forces,” the NR roving correspondent writes. “[N]obody did this to them. They failed themselves.”

He then goes on to state that all the ills associated with downscale whites are a result of that class’s inherent depravity.

“If you spend time in hardscrabble, white upstate New York, or eastern Kentucky, or my own native West Texas, and you take an honest look at the welfare dependency, the drug and alcohol addiction, the family anarchy—which is to say, the whelping of human children with all the respect and wisdom of a stray dog—you will come to an awful realization. It wasn’t Beijing. It wasn’t even Washington, as bad as Washington can be. It wasn’t immigrants from Mexico, excessive and problematic as our current immigration levels are. It wasn’t any of that,” Williamson state.

He then goes on to make the conclusion that it’s great these communities are dying out because they have a warped morality and are a dead weight on the economy.

“The truth about these dysfunctional, downscale communities is that they deserve to die. Economically, they are negative assets. Morally, they are indefensible,” the conservative writer says. “The white American under-class is in thrall to a vicious, selfish culture whose main products are misery and used heroin needles. Donald Trump’s speeches make them feel good. So does OxyContin. What they need isn’t analgesics, literal or political. They need real opportunity, which means that they need real change, which means that they need U-Haul. If you want to live, get out of Garbutt [a blue-collar town in New York].”

This article isn’t the first time Williamson has harshly criticized trying to appeal to working-class whites. In one February article, he said that this class is made-up of “economically and socially frustrated white men who wish to be economically supported by the federal government without enduring the stigma of welfare dependency.” He also claimed that their interests have no place in the “mainstream of American conservatism” and, in a follow-up post, said that the only message conservatives should give them is “get a job.”

While Williamson blames the people living in run-down white communities for their own woes, he does not apply the same principle to run-down minority communities. In his book and articles on the failures of Detroit, for instance, the National Review writer blames “progressivism” and unions for ruining the predominately African-American city.



   21. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:30 AM (#5174643)
By the way, Trump has been blasting Romney lately - particularly since Romney came out against him a couple of weeks ago. And one of his attacks is that Romney begged for his support in 2012. I never really gave much attention to that because (A) so what?, and (B) that's his standard line about every person and every organization that fails to Heil ClownHitler him: they begged me for money and are attacking me because I didn't give it. But the NYT had a story this weekend that said it was pretty much the opposite: Trump begged to be part of the Romney campaign, and while they were certainly happy to accept his money, they were embarrassed by him anddidn't want to have anything to do with him. They had to trick him into not taking questions from the press when he endorsed Romney.

He said-she said, except that it's a pattern by Trump.
   22. zonk Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:30 AM (#5174644)
Spent the weekend in quiet reflection on whether to take a GOP ballot tomorrow (and decided I will) --

Clown Hitler and his unbrownshirted brownshirts manage to kill anyone yet?
   23. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:32 AM (#5174645)
Question of the day: Would you kill Clown Hitler before he gets his vulgar hands on the levers of death?

I'd rather bury him alive in November, under the weight of about 75,000,000 ballots.
   24. gef, more dangerous than a monkey w/ a razor blade Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:32 AM (#5174646)

I'd never heard of Kevin Williamson, but curious ############# that I am, I googled him in order to see why you'd say that.


Maybe the OP really, really hated Dawson's Creek &/or Scream.
   25. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:33 AM (#5174648)
But the NYT had a story this weekend that said it was pretty much the opposite: Trump begged to be part of the Romney campaign, and while they were certainly happy to accept his money, they were embarrassed by him anddidn't want to have anything to do with him. They had to trick him into not taking questions from the press when he endorsed Romney.

Wow, the NYT, huh?

Wonder who the sources for that one were.
   26. zonk Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:34 AM (#5174649)
Question of the day: Would you kill Clown Hitler before he gets his vulgar hands on the levers of death?


I'll just rely on the fact that his stubby little cocktail weenie fingers might have trouble grasping levers of any sort...
   27. Rickey! [quote], not [code] Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:37 AM (#5174651)
People tried to talk reasonably with the modern left, but they wouldn't listen, and now here we are.


When the choice is standing down from his preening moralism and bullshit, or supporting the fascist in the race, it's clear where SBB will land.
   28. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:40 AM (#5174652)
Well, luckily, in the face of NYT propaganda, we have the ability at a mouse click to pull up news stories from 2012. Here's one from CNN:

"It's my honor, real honor, to endorse Mitt Romney," Trump said, with Romney and his wife standing nearby. Calling Romney "tough" and "smart," Trump said, "he's not going to continue to allow bad things to happen to this country."

Romney responded by praising Trump for "an extraordinary ability to understand how our economy works and to create jobs" and for being "one of the few who has stood up to say China is cheating" in international trade.

...

Perhaps in reference to Trump's earlier comments, Romney said Thursday after thanking Trump for the endorsement, "I spent my life in the private sector, not quite as successful as this guy but successful nonetheless."


But we've been assured that Trump really wasn't successful in the private sector.
   29. PASTE Transcends Almost All Generations (Zeth) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:40 AM (#5174653)
Do you think Williamson and his ilk take the time to write "white working class," or just write "white trash" and leaves it for the editors to update?

Incidentally, I grew up in eastern Kentucky and still spend a lot of time there (western Pennsylvania, actually, but it's pretty near the same thing) and the culture is anachronistic, but they're mostly decent people.

The discussion around a typical Red Tribe social gathering tends more toward "we are awesome! aren't we awesome?" whereas at a typical Blue Tribe gathering it tends more toward "the other tribe is made up of terrible people whose terrible culture needs to be destroyed." The Red Tribe THINKS this about the Blue, of course, but it doesn't seem nearly as important to them to verbally affirm it to each other.

Standard disclaimer that of course there are exceptions on both sides, etc. etc.
   30. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:41 AM (#5174654)

You ought to move here to Saskatchewan. They don't hold with no Day Light Savings here.


Except that Saskatchewan is, by longitude, clearly in the Mountain Time zone yet sets its clocks by Central Standard Time. The effect is that Saskatchewan is on Daylight Savings Time the whole year round.
   31. Juilin Sandar to Conkling Speedwell (Arjun) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:41 AM (#5174655)
Spent the weekend in quiet reflection on whether to take a GOP ballot tomorrow (and decided I will) --

I'd encourage you to reconsider: I'm not going to, even though I thought for a bit that I would, because the race where our/my vote is most necessary/meaningful is Alvarez+State's Attorney, and the best chance to at least make a statement along those lines is to vote in the primary for Foxx, which is a Democratic ballot.
   32. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:43 AM (#5174656)
Another shocker: Breitbart is a Trump shill:

Reporter who says she was manhandled by Trump campaign manager resigns from Breitbart

Breitbart News reporter Michelle Fields and editor-at-large Ben Shapiro have resigned from the conservative site over its handling of an alleged assault on Fields by Donald Trump’s campaign manager Corey Lewandowski.

“I don’t think they took my side,” Fields told The Washington Post early Monday. “They were protecting Trump more than me.”

Last week, Fields recounted in a post for Breitbart how Lewandowski allegedly grabbed her by the arm and yanked her away as she attempted to ask Trump a question after a news conference in Florida. The encounter left finger-shaped bruises on the 28-year-old reporter’s arm.

The Post’s Ben Terris, who witnessed the incident, has reported that Lewandowski was the one who grabbed Fields.

Trump and Lewandowski vehemently denied the accusation, and on Friday Breitbart — which has been sympathetic to Trump throughout the campaign — published a long post by senior editor at large Joel Pollak that painstakingly pieced together the event in question before concluding that the altercation couldn’t have happened the way Fields described it. Ultimately, Pollak suggested that perhaps Terris mistook Lewandowski for a security official or that her injuries were an accident incurred in the press scrum.

That same day, though, the site put out a brief statement saying that it stood behind Fields, but it did not demand an apology from the Trump campaign or assert that Fields was correct in identifying Lewandowski.

Pollak also reportedly instructed Breitbart staffers not to publicly defend their colleague. In internal messages originally obtained by BuzzFeed, a staffer, Brandon Darby, wrote that Lewandowski’s behavior was “a declaration of war” and that “silence is abandoning our team member.” Pollak responded, “In war, we wait for orders that are based on a careful plan. So wait.” (Speaking to The Post, Shapiro confirmed that the chat’s transcripts were accurate.)

“Breitbart has unfortunately become Trump’s Pravda,” Shapiro said, explaining his own resignation and referring to the Soviet Communist Party publication. “No media outlet worth its salt would throw over their own reporter and bad-mouth her on their front page in order to protect the candidate.”


If only their great leader Andrew Breitbart were still alive, he would've known how to handle this: Blame it all on Shirley Sherrod.
   33. The Good Face Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:45 AM (#5174657)
When the choice is standing down from his preening moralism and bullshit, or supporting the fascist in the race, it's clear where SBB will land.


On Hillary?
   34. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:45 AM (#5174658)
Question of the day: Would you kill Clown Hitler before he gets his vulgar hands on the levers of death?


The last time hands that vulgar pulled a lever.
   35. zonk Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:46 AM (#5174659)

I'd encourage you to reconsider: I'm not going to, even though I thought for a bit that I would, because the race where our/my vote is most necessary/meaningful is Alvarez+State's Attorney, and the best chance to at least make a statement along those lines is to vote in the primary for Foxx, which is a Democratic ballot.


Yeah, I know... It is Chicago - maybe they'll just let me vote twice.
   36. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:46 AM (#5174660)
When the choice is standing down from his preening moralism and bullshit, or supporting the fascist in the race, it's clear where SBB will land.

Yes, we already know modern liberals think everyone who isn't one of them is a "racist" and/or "fascist," it's unclear why you see the need to continually confirm it. Everybody gets it already.

"Racist," "fascist," "mansplaining" -- like Jackie Chiles said, you people have a little pet name for everyone and everything.
   37. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:49 AM (#5174661)
Instead the GOP has spent decades alternating between ignoring and patronizing them while the Dems have treated them as Lebensunwertes Leben.


It wasn't a Democrat who wrote this:

It is immoral because it perpetuates a lie: that the white working class that finds itself attracted to Trump has been victimized by outside forces. It hasn’t. ... They failed themselves.

If you spend time in hardscrabble, white upstate New York, or eastern Kentucky, or my own native West Texas, and you take an honest look at the welfare dependency, the drug and alcohol addiction, the family anarchy—which is to say, the whelping of human children with all the respect and wisdom of a stray dog—you will come to an awful realization. It wasn’t Beijing. It wasn’t even Washington, as bad as Washington can be. It wasn’t immigrants from Mexico, excessive and problematic as our current immigration levels are. It wasn’t any of that.

[...]

The truth about these dysfunctional, downscale communities is that they deserve to die. Economically, they are negative assets. Morally, they are indefensible ...
   38. Delorians Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:50 AM (#5174662)
Spent the weekend in quiet reflection on whether to take a GOP ballot tomorrow (and decided I will) --

Clown Hitler and his unbrownshirted brownshirts manage to kill anyone yet?


Thank you, and I hope more democrats cross over to vote against Trump in the coming weeks. Since you have to actually vote for someone, are you planning to vote for who most closely aligns with your beliefs, or for the non-Trump who has the best chance to win your state?
   39. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:50 AM (#5174663)
It wasn't a Democrat who wrote this

No, but the vast majority of white Democrats think it. They detest the white working class and have completely sold them out.
   40. Lassus Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:51 AM (#5174664)
It wasn't a Democrat who wrote this:

Then who wants to nuke Utica from orbit, I feel I deserve to know.


No, but the vast majority of white Democrats think it.

IPL UNITE!
   41. PASTE Transcends Almost All Generations (Zeth) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:52 AM (#5174666)
I think a scenario in which Trump arrives at the convention with a plurality but not a majority of the delegates, is denied the nomination, and the GOP fractures in a way that persists beyond Trump's presumed independent run is, if not likely, certainly plausible. There's been a rift within the party for years, and it's deepening.

Re #38: Democrats should be crossing over to vote for Trump.
   42. Ray (RDP) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:54 AM (#5174667)
From over the weekend:

I assume you mean ClownHitler claiming that his loss in Florida is the result of vote rigging.

What loss in Florida?

The one he's anticipating and preemptively spinning with absolutely delusional claims.


So, David, since you've called it a "loss in Florida" is this a prediction from you that Trump is going to lose Florida? Or just hyperbole.
   43. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:55 AM (#5174668)
And of course, on the substance, Williamson is completely full of ####. To the extent those communities got that way, it was explicitly because their jobs moved away. They weren't that way before -- just as many majority-black communities weren't as bad as they got post-deindustrialization. (See, again, William Julius Wilson for the underlying data.)
   44. Ray (RDP) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 10:57 AM (#5174669)
Spent the weekend in quiet reflection on whether to take a GOP ballot tomorrow (and decided I will) --

Clown Hitler and his unbrownshirted brownshirts manage to kill anyone yet?

Thank you, and I hope more democrats cross over to vote against Trump in the coming weeks.


I thought he was saying that he voted FOR Trump.
   45. The Good Face Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:00 AM (#5174672)
The discussion around a typical Red Tribe social gathering tends more toward "we are awesome! aren't we awesome?" whereas at a typical Blue Tribe gathering it tends more toward "the other tribe is made up of terrible people whose terrible culture needs to be destroyed." The Red Tribe THINKS this about the Blue, of course, but it doesn't seem nearly as important to them to verbally affirm it to each other.


Mmm. For most of my life, it was more the Red Tribe thinking the Blue tribe were terrible people, but they mostly just wanted the Blue Tribe to stay out of their hair and leave them alone. That's been changing as it's becoming apparent that there is nowhere left to retreat. You've pretty much nailed what the Blue Tribe thinks though.
   46. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:00 AM (#5174673)
Last week, Fields recounted in a post for Breitbart how Lewandowski allegedly grabbed her by the arm and yanked her away as she attempted to ask Trump a question after a news conference in Florida. The encounter left finger-shaped bruises on the 28-year-old reporter’s arm.


Low energy. Also low antioxidant, she shouldn't be bruising so easily.
   47. zonk Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:04 AM (#5174674)

Thank you, and I hope more democrats cross over to vote against Trump in the coming weeks. Since you have to actually vote for someone, are you planning to vote for who most closely aligns with your beliefs, or for the non-Trump who has the best chance to win your state?


I'm going most likely to overtake Trump -- the more recent polls say that's Ted Cruz, who ironically, aligns worst with me... I might vote Kasich - there's actually a non-zero chance I'd vote Kasich in the general election were he to be the GOP nominee, but the last week or so of polls seem to indicate that it's Cruz who can get by Trump.
   48. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:05 AM (#5174675)
A white working guy is the person people like Sam and Bitter Mouse spend their entire waking existence expressing their superiority to. To them, that's the working class's primary role in the system -- to refract favorably upon them.
   49. Delorians Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:05 AM (#5174676)
I thought he was saying that he voted FOR Trump.

I don't think someone using the phrase 'Clown Hitler' is planning to vote FOR Trump.
   50. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:06 AM (#5174677)

Then who wants to nuke Utica from orbit, I feel I deserve to know.


Follow the link.


No, but the vast majority of white Democrats think it.


That's a great talent. What number am I thinking of?
   51. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:07 AM (#5174678)

I don't think someone using the phrase 'Clown Hitler' is planning to vote FOR Trump.


Counterpoint.
   52. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:08 AM (#5174679)
That's a great talent. What number am I thinking of?


DUH.
   53. Ray (RDP) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:09 AM (#5174680)
I thought he was saying that he voted FOR Trump.

I don't think someone using the phrase 'Clown Hitler' is planning to vote FOR Trump.


The idea is that if you're a Democrat - as Zonk is - and you really think Trump is the R candidate that's most beatable in the general, you sabotage the primaries voting and vote for him.
   54. Orange Julius Is the New Black Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:09 AM (#5174681)
Fields didn't identify Lewandowski. Terris did.

The press prefers narrative to fact. You can identify outright falsehoods in most stories.
   55. There's a bustle in Misirlou's hedgerow Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:11 AM (#5174683)
If I'd gotten around to changing my party affiliation earlier, I'd be voting for Rubio tomorrow. But alas, as a registered independent, I'll be voting for no one.
   56. Lassus Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:13 AM (#5174685)
A white working guy is the person people like Sam and Bitter Mouse spend their entire waking existence expressing their superiority to

IPL UNITE! AGAIN!

You realize not every white working class guy thinks like the Heil-ing Trump supporters, right? And that not every Trump supporter is even a sucker-punching asshat? Or does that not even compute for you? Honestly, yours and TGF's view of the white working class seems way more limiting than mine or Sam's.
   57. There's a bustle in Misirlou's hedgerow Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:14 AM (#5174686)
The idea is that if you're a Democrat - as Zonk is - and you really think Trump is the R candidate that's most beatable in the general, you sabotage the primaries voting and vote for him.


No. The idea is you want a brokered convention, and hopefully when Trump gets shut out of the nomination, he runs a sore loser independent campaign in the general, thus assuring a Dem victory more than an R Trump would. Even if he doesn't do that, enough of his hard core supporters likely stay home in November.
   58. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:15 AM (#5174687)
You realize not every white working class guy thinks like the Heil-ing Trump supporters, right? Or does that not even compute for you? Honestly, yours and TGF's view of the white working class seems way more limiting than mine or Sam's.

We've been through the thing wherein a statement about a demographic doesn't mean literally every single last member of that demographic.
   59. The Good Face Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:16 AM (#5174688)
The idea is that if you're a Democrat - as Zonk is - and you really think Trump is the R candidate that's most beatable in the general, you sabotage the primaries voting and vote for him.


They're simultaneously convinced he has zero chance against the Hillary juggernaut and shitting their pants over the prospect of him winning.

   60. Ray (RDP) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:17 AM (#5174690)
No. The idea is you want a brokered convention, and hopefully when Trump gets shut out of the nomination, he runs a sore loser independent campaign in the general,


There seems little chance of him running a sore loser campaign.
   61. PASTE Transcends Almost All Generations (Zeth) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:20 AM (#5174692)
As a registered Democrat in Pennsylvania my primary vote is irrelevant so I can just write in Vermin Supreme for all it matters. I expect I'll vote for Bernie but that doesn't mean I have to like it.
   62. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:20 AM (#5174693)
Barack Obama, June 2008 (from Politico):

“If they bring a knife to the fight, we bring a gun,” Obama said in Philadelphia last night. “Because from what I understand, folks in Philly like a good brawl. I’ve seen Eagles fans.”


I don't remember many complaints back then from the usual suspects about the "violent" rhetoric, but perhaps memories are going bad.

Who, whom.
   63. zonk Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:21 AM (#5174694)

The idea is that if you're a Democrat - as Zonk is - and you really think Trump is the R candidate that's most beatable in the general, you sabotage the primaries voting and vote for him.


It's not an operation chaos type vote (for me, at least).

I truly think Trump is dangerous and completely unfit to be anything other than a reality TV character. Some votes transcend party preferences...

As Srul (I think) put it -

From my/liberal perspective, Ted Cruz might well be the worst President in US history.... but Donald Trump might be the last President in US history...
   64. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:24 AM (#5174695)
Fields didn't identify Lewandowski. Terris did.

The press prefers narrative to fact. You can identify outright falsehoods in most stories.


Except that the narrative is quite straightforward:

Last week, Fields recounted in a post for Breitbart how Lewandowski allegedly grabbed her by the arm and yanked her away as she attempted to ask Trump a question after a news conference in Florida. The encounter left finger-shaped bruises on the 28-year-old reporter’s arm.

The Post’s Ben Terris, who witnessed the incident, has reported that Lewandowski was the one who grabbed Fields.


I'm not sure how much more spinning you want to invest in trying to negate the clear facts surrounding this incident, but maybe you can say it was all an invention of the News Hour.

   65. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:31 AM (#5174696)
From my/liberal perspective, Ted Cruz might well be the worst President in US history.... but Donald Trump might be the last President in US history...

From the fever swamps of Trump Derangement Syndrome -- Trump is going to name himself Emperor.



   66. Greg K Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:31 AM (#5174697)
Trump is the natural endgame of the in-your-face, all-trash-talk-all-the-time internet and civic culture we've built. He is 2016 America.

He's more like John that Baptist to Jose Bautista.
   67. Lassus Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:32 AM (#5174698)
From the fever swamps of Trump Derangement Syndrome -- Trump is going to name himself Emperor.

I could be mistaken, but I think you're reading this wrong. I took it as more of a "start WWIII" thing, but I am a child of the Cold War.
   68. Lassus Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:34 AM (#5174700)
They're simultaneously convinced he has zero chance against the Hillary juggernaut and shitting their pants over the prospect of him winning.

I'm convinced I'm not going to get colon cancer, but the prospect of getting it is still rather terrifying.
   69. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:34 AM (#5174701)
I could be mistaken, but I think you're reading this wrong. I took it as more of a "start WWIII" thing, but I am a child of the Cold War.

OK, well that's better then. /eyeroll

And pay no heed to the proximity of American and NATO war planes, personnel, and materiel to Russia and the heated rhetoric between Russia and Turkey ....
   70. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:35 AM (#5174703)
As a registered Democrat in Pennsylvania my primary vote is irrelevant so I can just write in Vermin Supreme for all it matters. I expect I'll vote for Bernie but that doesn't mean I have to like it.

As a registered Democrat in Maryland, it's hard to imagine any national vote I could cast that would make any difference at all. But on general principle, I don't like the idea of crossover primary voting, or hostile independents voting in primary elections for a candidate they think will be most likely to tank in November. I may hope that Trump or Cruz wind up with the nomination, but the choice of the Republican candidate should be up to the Republican electorate, not to would-be saboteurs.

I should add that there's nothing wrong with independents voting in open primaries, but I'd like to think they're voting for a candidate whom they'd then vote for in November, and not for the fattest pinata.
   71. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:37 AM (#5174705)
As a registered Democrat in Pennsylvania my primary vote is irrelevant


Why do you say this? I live in Michigan and thought the same thing, but I went to vote anyway. Didn't turn out to be so irrelevant.
   72. Greg K Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:38 AM (#5174706)
By the way, Trump has been blasting Romney lately - particularly since Romney came out against him a couple of weeks ago. And one of his attacks is that Romney begged for his support in 2012. I never really gave much attention to that because (A) so what?, and (B) that's his standard line about every person and every organization that fails to Heil ClownHitler him: they begged me for money and are attacking me because I didn't give it. But the NYT had a story this weekend that said it was pretty much the opposite: Trump begged to be part of the Romney campaign, and while they were certainly happy to accept his money, they were embarrassed by him anddidn't want to have anything to do with him. They had to trick him into not taking questions from the press when he endorsed Romney.

He said-she said, except that it's a pattern by Trump.

It's pretty far from mattering, but I thought John Oliver's take on this was pretty funny. In the wake of Oliver's show about Trump a few weeks ago Trump claimed Oliver was just being petty because Trump had refused several requests to appear on his show. Oliver said that Trump made this claim with such confidence that he began to think that maybe it was true. He double checked with his staff to see if anyone had put in any requests to Trump's people, but (according to Oliver anyway) it never happened.

Now I doubt Trump put much thought, if any, into responding to Oliver...nor does a presidential candidate really need to address the work of a comedian...he likely just deployed a stock response that effectively discredits people like Oliver and moved on. But it just seems weird when you can just as easily dismiss a guy like Oliver any number of ways.
   73. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:39 AM (#5174708)

He's more like John that Baptist to Jose Bautista.


huh?
   74. Lassus Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:40 AM (#5174709)
OK, well that's better then. /eyeroll

It's a helluva lot more likely than your interpretation would be.
   75. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:42 AM (#5174710)
It's a helluva lot more likely than your interpretation would be.

Yawn.

The pants pissers were convinced Reagan was going to start WWIII, too, and the Soviets were way more scary than Mexico.
   76. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:44 AM (#5174711)
They're simultaneously convinced he has zero chance against the Hillary juggernaut and shitting their pants over the prospect of him winning.
I think Andy is the only one who literally thinks he has zero chance. I think most other people here are like me (well... at least in this one narrow respect): thinking that he'd likely do very badly against Hillary, while acknowledging the possibility of a black swan event. One need not think the probability of a ClownHitler win to be high to be scared of the possibility.
   77. zonk Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:44 AM (#5174712)
From the fever swamps of Trump Derangement Syndrome -- Trump is going to name himself Emperor.


Despite what I imagine he thinks, Trump isn't immortal... so of all the ways he could be the "last President", this one is probably least likely.

I'm more concerned - should Trump win - with the "barking dog catches the car bumper" problem...

The shitstorm he's stirred up - what happens when he wins and the gumdrops don't fall from the sky, and of course, they won't... Even if - EVEN IF - Trump's sole campaign policy - ripping up all current trade deals and negotiating supposedly 'better' ones... It's not like Nike or Widgets Inc or whatever is going to instantly or even quickly open a bunch of factories in Hard Working White Town America.

Inevitably, even IF, Clown Hitler's "ideas" work -- it will be a year or two or three of economic warfare... prices will spike due to the global trade war he wants to start and things will get much worse before/if they get better.

Then what does he do?

Well, he'll do what all demagogues do - he'll find someone else to blame... who knows who that will be: congress? the courts? the liberals? the Jews? the blacks?

Trump's one trick pony is whipping up the rage...
   78. Greg K Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:45 AM (#5174713)
So, David, since you've called it a "loss in Florida" is this a prediction from you that Trump is going to lose Florida? Or just hyperbole.

538 has Trump with a 90% chance of winning Florida. The closer ones look like Ohio (78% Kasich) and Illinois (68% Trump). Not that Nate Silver is infallible, but Florida going to anyone other than Trump would be quite a shock at this point wouldn't it?
   79. The Good Face Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:45 AM (#5174714)
I'm convinced I'm not going to get colon cancer, but the prospect of getting it is still rather terrifying.


Why would you be terrified of something you're convinced has a zero probability of occurring?
   80. The Good Face Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:48 AM (#5174715)
Trump's one trick pony is whipping up the rage...


Globalists and multiculturalists created the rage. Trump is merely its outlet. You think it's all going to go away with him?
   81. Bitter Mouse, Space Tyrant Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:49 AM (#5174716)
A white working guy is the person people like Sam and Bitter Mouse spend their entire waking existence expressing their superiority to. To them, that's the working class's primary role in the system -- to refract favorably upon them.


This is just truly bizarre. I have posted no such thing - ever. SBB you need to up your medication dude.
   82. Orange Julius Is the New Black Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:51 AM (#5174717)
You realize not every white working class guy thinks like the Heil-ing Trump supporters, right?


You know Clinton has asked her supporters to raise their hands in the very same fashion, right?
   83. Bitter Mouse, Space Tyrant Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:52 AM (#5174719)
Globalists and multiculturalists created the rage.


Funny how some folks spend all their time blaming others. It is almost like they are losers with no successes to point to, and so they are left with only blame. That must really suck. I feel for those people.
   84. Greg K Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:52 AM (#5174720)
To add to #78 538 has Missouri very close as well, though not enough polling data to project anything.
   85. Bitter Mouse, Space Tyrant Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:53 AM (#5174721)
You know Clinton has asked her supporters to raise their hands in the very same fashion, right?


I didn't. You have any proof of that? I would love to see it. (Not that the salute is the only problem with Trump, at worst it is one of many symptoms).
   86. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:53 AM (#5174722)
This is just truly bizarre. I have posted no such thing - ever.

Are you familiar with this thing called ... "criticism"? You may want to look it up. See, what happens is like a movie gets made, and these people called "critics" watch it, place it in context, come to some conception of some of its thematic underpinnings, and then express those conceptions. That the film doesn't overtly "say" any of those thematic underpinnings is really neither here nor there.
   87. zenbitz Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:54 AM (#5174723)
If you want me to feel sympathy for white working class America, then having some National Review ####### spew out a hatchet job is a good way to do it.

   88. Orange Julius Is the New Black Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:56 AM (#5174725)
Why would you be terrified of something you're convinced has a zero probability of occurring?


The denial of death only works so well.
   89. Bitter Mouse, Space Tyrant Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:57 AM (#5174727)
That the film doesn't overtly "say" any of those thematic underpinnings is really neither here nor there.


So when I am "expressing" this superiority you claim I feel it is all in code? Do you have examples of my posts that show this dog whistle, wherein I think I am superior to specifically a white working guy? I mean that is your claim, I wonder if you have any evidence at all.

(OK I am not wondering at all, everyone here know you are full of crap, much like you have no evidence the US is run for interests of those not in the US. Much like most of your nonsense.)
   90. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:58 AM (#5174728)
I think Andy is the only one who literally thinks he has zero chance. I think most other people here are like me (well... at least in this one narrow respect): thinking that he'd likely do very badly against Hillary, while acknowledging the possibility of a black swan event. One need not think the probability of a ClownHitler win to be high to be scared of the possibility.

David, if I literally thought Trump had a zero chance of winning the election, I'd be offering Ray his 20 to 1 and Good Face his suggested 100 to 1.** As for what I really think the odds are? I'd say they're somewhere in between zero and keeping me awake at nights fretting about the possibility, regardless of whether he faces Hillary or Bernie. But I'm not sure what precise number I'd assign to it.

** The fact that neither of them will take Mouse's offered 3 to 1 odds says a lot about what those two really think of their hero's chances.
   91. Orange Julius Is the New Black Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:59 AM (#5174729)
The older you get, the greater the realization your body will one day evilly betray you.

Childhood has its bodily humiliations, but death is more unreal.
   92. The Good Face Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:59 AM (#5174730)
Great moments in self-contradiction...

A white working guy is the person people like Sam and Bitter Mouse spend their entire waking existence expressing their superiority to. To them, that's the working class's primary role in the system -- to refract favorably upon them.

This is just truly bizarre. I have posted no such thing - ever. SBB you need to up your medication dude.


Followed by;

Globalists and multiculturalists created the rage.

Funny how some folks spend all their time blaming others. It is almost like they are losers with no successes to point to, and so they are left with only blame. That must really suck. I feel for those people.
   93. Bitter Mouse, Space Tyrant Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:59 AM (#5174731)
Why would you be terrified of something you're convinced has a zero probability of occurring?


Why were huge swaths of people here terrified by Ebola? Wanting to ban travel, quarantine workers and such? And of course if the Carnival Barker wins the nomination he has a non-zero chance of winning. Maybe a 1 in 3 chance even.
   94. bunyon Posted: March 14, 2016 at 11:59 AM (#5174732)
Trump is merely its outlet. You think it's all going to go away with him?

This seems to be the salient point. I think Trump is dangerous in that he would be a terrible president - even up to and including bad enough to create consitutional crises that threaten the existence of the United States as we know it. As the Republican nominee he has a very definite non-zero chance of winning. Hilary will be a terrible candidate. I'm convinced she couldn't beat a conventional R candidate.

However, the fact that he has such large support shows that it isn't just him. There is a lot of rage, much of it justified, at the behavior of ruling elites on both sides of the aisle. The best case is that Trump has pushed politicians on both sides to reckon with this fact and that we get "good"* candidates down the road who can tap into the rage without also tapping into the bigotry and ignorance. It can be done, as it has been done before.

Worst case is that Trump inspires someone truly evil to tap into the same power source he, himself, has been tapping into.

As long as Congress can and will stand up to POTUS and the military answers to its oath to the constitution, we'll get through it. If either Congress lies down or the military goes with POTUS no matter what, we could have problems.

Basically, with conventional R and D candidates, the range of possible futures is fairly narrow. Trump has widened them significantly. If you think the US is in terrible shape already, that is exciting. If you think we're basically okay with a few issues, but nothing major, that need resolving it is terrifying.
   95. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 12:01 PM (#5174733)
So, David, since you've called it a "loss in Florida" is this a prediction from you that Trump is going to lose Florida? Or just hyperbole.
Wishful thinking. As I've observed several times, Trump has done far better in the big picture than people assumed he would, but he has not succeeded in making votes magically appear out of nowhere; he has done basically as the polls said he would¹. There's always the chance of an upset -- see, e.g., Sanders in Michigan -- but generally speaking, it's safest to go with the polls. And the polls show him with a big lead in Florida. But I do think that Trump is worried, which is why he's preemptively spinning.



¹ It goes both ways. He has not, as some optimists had hoped, flopped based on the notion that his supporters weren't really voters.
   96. Empathy, I Promise You (SBB) Posted: March 14, 2016 at 12:01 PM (#5174734)
So when I am "expressing" this superiority you claim I feel it is all in code? Do you have examples of my posts that show this dog whistle, wherein I think I am superior to specifically a white working guy? I mean that is your claim, I wonder if you have any evidence at all.

You're a rampant and consistent (and often showy) virtue signaler. The vast majority of white chronic virtue signalers are that way because they wish to signal their superiority to other white people. Nothing in the things you write would lead anyone to believe you're an exception to this general rule; in fact, just the opposite, as demonstrated by your insistence that you feel no greater affinity to Americans than Tibetans or Bangladeshis.

QED.

   97. Random Transaction Generator Posted: March 14, 2016 at 12:01 PM (#5174735)
538 has Trump with a 90% chance of winning Florida.


I believe that 538 also had >99% of Clinton winning Michigan.

Whoops.
   98. Bitter Mouse, Space Tyrant Posted: March 14, 2016 at 12:03 PM (#5174736)
Great moments in self-contradiction.


There is no contradiction. I don't think I am better than the white working class, I value all people, even those I disagree with. I just feel bad for you, as a self described loser*.

Like I said it must really suck and I feel bad for you. Am I not allowed to feel bad for a specific loser without being accused of feeling superior to an entire class of people? That seems strange.

* You yourself have claimed zero political conservative victories in the US since at least 1965. 50+ years of losing, makes you a political loser. And that must suck and explains the blame you fling around.
   99. The Good Face Posted: March 14, 2016 at 12:03 PM (#5174738)

I believe that 538 also had >99% of Clinton winning Michigan.


Mostly dead is still partly alive.
   100. Bitter Mouse, Space Tyrant Posted: March 14, 2016 at 12:04 PM (#5174739)
QED.


So no proof then. Got it. Just more internet psychic league nonsense. Thanks.
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