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Saturday, February 01, 2014

OTP - Feb 2014: Politics remains a hurdle for immigration reform

Yet Obama might find his best-chance legislative compromise in an issue that lately has seemed to be on life support: an overhaul of the nation’s immigration laws.

Curiously, immigration was an issue the president barely mentioned in this year’s speech. Maybe he does not want to interfere with those Republicans who actually agree with him on the need to bring the nation’s millions of undocumented workers out of the shadows.

Bitter Mouse Posted: February 01, 2014 at 04:01 PM | 3524 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   1501. Lassus Posted: February 14, 2014 at 12:45 PM (#4656880)
Well, I'm delighted watching you defend the proposition that a fat, bald, unemployed neckbeard living in his mother's basement has the same chance of scoring a supermodel as Leonardo DiCaprio

Your warped interpretation that someone said this does not actually mean that anyone said it.
   1502. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 14, 2014 at 12:51 PM (#4656886)
I'm delighted watching you defend the proposition that a fat, bald, unemployed neckbeard living in his mother's basement has the same chance of scoring a supermodel as Leonardo DiCaprio


I'm delighted you're finally coming to comfort and terms with who you are, so much so that you can admit in public your sexual attraction to other men. Leo's a bit of a twee bird for me, but I understand you might like a partner you can dominate on occasion.
   1503. Gonfalon B. Posted: February 14, 2014 at 12:54 PM (#4656887)
Speaking of which, what's happened to Ray?

Speaking of which, what's happened to No-No-Na ... Nieporent?


See! And you jerks thought "at gunpoint" was just self-pitying rhetoric.
   1504. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 14, 2014 at 12:56 PM (#4656889)
1485: 'Neo-Reactionaries', i.e. 'I Can't Believe Its Not Fascism!'


TechCruch on the subject.

I hadn't heard the term until today, but yes, it seems we have found the label that TGF refuses to apply to himself....
   1505. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 14, 2014 at 12:56 PM (#4656890)
The US built a military (and cultural/financial) empire in the 20th century, and vigorously defended it from all comers. What will happen when USG is unable or unwilling to fill that role? All empires decline eventually...


This is typical BS. Let's examine the empires and what happened to them in the 20th century.

WWI Destroyed numerous empires, and WWII finished most of the rest. Post WWII there was the sorting out period. The last military empire was the USSR, and it eventually fell as well.

What military empire building did the US do in the 20th Century? I am on board that economically and culturally the US did plenty of empire building and was the dominant power of the 20th, but little or none of that was due to military empire building.

In WWI, the US won, but what was militarily conquered that the US has? IN WWII the military action mainly benefited the US by harming the other nations, but what territory was gained by the US. And of course in neither of those was the US an aggressor. My metric suggests that starting wars, trying to militarily build empires is a terrible idea post 1900.

So let's look at the wars the US was the aggressor post 1900. Yeah we saw HUGE gains. Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan - all giant wins. Unless you are pinning your theory on Panama or Grenada or some other tiny war, where is the massive conquest that helped build the US in the 20th century.

Name some specifics and how it helped the US. Tell me all about the military empire the US build post 1900 through aggressive conquest. Because I am pretty sure it did not happen. Of course you could pretend that the US was the aggressor in a war with the USSR and "won" that war thereby building our empire. And if you think that, what territory did we take from them?
   1506. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 14, 2014 at 12:57 PM (#4656891)
Ray's still posting photos of himself out and about with friends and family on ye old Facebook. I think he's fine.

I suspect Kneepants is just knee deep - HA! I kill myself - in taking care of two relatively young kids. That, and fighting the creeping power of the state from his cushy Jersey law offices, naturally. He's like the world's worst knock-off Punisher that way.
   1507. Lassus Posted: February 14, 2014 at 12:59 PM (#4656895)
Leo's a bit of a twee bird for me

Boy you really are part of the bear community aren't you? That twee bird's approaching six feet tall and, well, not thin.
   1508. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 14, 2014 at 01:08 PM (#4656899)
Boy you really are part of the bear community aren't you?


"Approaching six feet tall" is a way of saying "the last guy picked for any sporting event this side of ice dancing."
   1509. The Good Face Posted: February 14, 2014 at 01:10 PM (#4656902)
I hadn't heard the term until today, but yes, it seems we have found the label that TGF refuses to apply to himself....


Neoreactionary? I'm ok with that label.
   1510. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 14, 2014 at 01:43 PM (#4656925)
Doesn't every group vote more heavily in presidential v non presidential elections? Seems like the real data point will be a white Democratic candidate in 2016.


Blacks voted more in 2008 and 2012 than they usually do in Presidential elections.
Blacks voted at the same rate in 2010 that they usually do in mid-term elections.

That indicates to me that the 2008-2012 increase in the black vote was Obama driven.

The idea that black voting would return to historical norms was one of the linchpins of GOP strategy in 2012 and that sorta didn't work out.


I don't, I think they realized that black voting would stay up- unless they actively suppressed it, unfortunately for them their voter suppression efforts were either ineffectual or backfired.

The continued climb in Hispanic voter participation (happening at the same time as an increasing pro-0bama tilt) was something that took them aback, they had basically wishcasted that away- because they'd been warned about it for years and years- and it didn't happen the second they were warned about it they assumed the warnings were false alarms/hoaxes.

They also seemed to think they'd manage to keep that old white demographic vote up in the stratosphere (relative to other groups) like 2010...


   1511. Lassus Posted: February 14, 2014 at 01:48 PM (#4656929)
"Approaching six feet tall" is a way of saying "the last guy picked for any sporting event this side of ice dancing."

I'm 5'9". How many HR did YOU hit at the softball game, Gigantor?
   1512. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 14, 2014 at 01:50 PM (#4656934)
In WWI, the US won, but what was militarily conquered that the US has?


Guam

Edit: And I'm wrong about that...
   1513. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 14, 2014 at 01:53 PM (#4656939)
US Virgin Islands, which we, err, bought from the Dutch in 1917, but if tehy hadn't been willing to sell we totally would have taken them by force to keep Germany from using them as UBoat bases...
   1514. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 14, 2014 at 02:02 PM (#4656945)
Ray's still posting photos of himself out and about with friends and family on ye old Facebook. I think he's fine.


Good.
   1515. The Good Face Posted: February 14, 2014 at 02:04 PM (#4656947)
I'm delighted you're finally coming to comfort and terms with who you are, so much so that you can admit in public your sexual attraction to other men.


Really? You're going with the, "You're a big gay!" argument? Awesome.

Well, I'm delighted watching you defend the proposition that a fat, bald, unemployed neckbeard living in his mother's basement has the same chance of scoring a supermodel as Leonardo DiCaprio

Your warped interpretation that someone said this does not actually mean that anyone said it.


Let me introduce you to Sam...
   1516. BDC Posted: February 14, 2014 at 02:20 PM (#4656957)
neckbeard living in his mother's basement has the same chance of scoring a supermodel as Leonardo DiCaprio

It's the Kleenex boxes on the feet that women go mad for.
   1517. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 14, 2014 at 02:20 PM (#4656958)
Really? You're going with the, "You're a big gay!" argument? Awesome.


You also smell.
   1518. The Good Face Posted: February 14, 2014 at 02:33 PM (#4656967)
You also smell awesome.


Fixed that for you!
   1519. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 14, 2014 at 02:40 PM (#4656972)
Fixed that for you!


Your occasional foray into putative humor combined with your willingness to admit that you're a reactionary (as opposed to most of the "conservatives" around who want to claim to be carrying the standard of Lincoln and freedom while embracing the same values as you) is why I don't dislike you as a person.
   1520. Guapo Posted: February 14, 2014 at 02:42 PM (#4656976)
Your occasional foray into putative humor combined with your willingness to admit that you're a reactionary (as opposed to most of the "conservatives" around who want to claim to be carrying the standard of Lincoln and freedom while embracing the same values as you) is why I don't dislike you as a person.


I'e been struggling with what to write on my Valentine's Day card to my wife- can I steal this?
   1521. robinred Posted: February 14, 2014 at 02:45 PM (#4656980)
can I steal this?


You could, but I would go with

You also smell awesome.


Or, just give her a graph mapping her SMV from first date to today, showing that it in your mind, it is still going up.
   1522. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 14, 2014 at 02:51 PM (#4656985)
Or, just give her a graph mapping her SMV from first date to today, showing that it in your mind, it is still going up.


Be careful with that "just had a baby and had some issues working off the extra weight" middle period of the graph, buddy.
   1523. formerly dp Posted: February 14, 2014 at 02:52 PM (#4656987)
You owe it to yourselves to read #academicvalentines:
A rose by any other name denotes the joint effect of sociolinguistic and phenomenological factors on scent perception
   1524. BDC Posted: February 14, 2014 at 03:00 PM (#4656995)
TO MY VALENTINE

I know you have no options.
You'd leave me if you could.
When men pass by your cubicle
Few or none pop wood.

Your waistline isn't minuscule.
You don't care how you look.
No chance of Jeter dating you.
Hell, no chance of John Kruk.

But since you're low on SMV
And look an awful fright,
I'm free to grow my neckbeard out
And pound the Keystone Light.

So won't you be my Valentine?
Let's share a pizza pie
And surf some baseball stathead sites
And wait around to die.




   1525. Mefisto Posted: February 14, 2014 at 03:03 PM (#4656998)
Primey for 1524.
   1526. spike Posted: February 14, 2014 at 03:06 PM (#4657005)
I don't, I think they realized that black voting would stay up- unless they actively suppressed it, unfortunately for them their voter suppression efforts were either ineffectual or backfired.

In public anyway, Romney, Ryan et al claimed to be shocked by the turnout


Blacks voted more in 2008 and 2012 than they usually do in Presidential elections.
Blacks voted at the same rate in 2010 that they usually do in mid-term elections.

That indicates to me that the 2008-2012 increase in the black vote was Obama driven


It does not necessarily follow from this there will not be a similarly high turnout in the next presidential. Additionally, Hillary was married to The First Black President (tm) as I recall. I think there is an excellent chance between this and backlash against voter suppression laws turnout will stay pretty close to the 08/12 model.
   1527. The Good Face Posted: February 14, 2014 at 03:16 PM (#4657015)
1524 is indeed excellent.

   1528. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 14, 2014 at 04:51 PM (#4657094)
It does not necessarily follow from this there will not be a similarly high turnout in the next presidential.


no, but if you are relying on blacks to make up 13% of the 2016 electorate like they did in 2008 and 2012, their is a good chance you'll be disappointed.

Anyway, I found an interesting comparison of 2006 versus 2010- in 2010 these groups showed the greatest swing from Dem into Republican voting:

Nonvoters from the prior Presidential election
"Independents"
Rural Voters
Age 65 and older
Whites...

These groups overlap to a great extent, basically what it boils down to is that 2010's GOP takeover of the House (and many statehouse) was driven by rural conservative whites who woke up on November 5, 2008, astounded and horrified that a ###### had been elected president the day before. These people didn't vote in 2008 or 2006 (and probably not in 2004 or 2002...) and since overall turnout was lower in 2012 than 2008, I'm guessing most of those 2010 first time/atypical voters didn't vote in 2012 either.

So how is 2014 gonna look?
I don't think either 2006 or 2010 is a good proxy, both were wave years, in particular the anti-Obama animus that propelled 2010 has petered out (I mean it still simmers obviously but if it didn't drive people to the polls in 2012 it's not going to in 2014)
2002 is too long ago and too many districts have been redrawn (plus that was pretty much the peak of Dubya's popularity.)
My guess is that the House elected in 2014 is going to look a lot like the one elected in 2012.
The Senate is going to be more Rep as the Dems lose seats they gained in 2006 only because that was a Dem wave year.





   1529. spike Posted: February 14, 2014 at 04:55 PM (#4657097)
On a side note, this Martin business is just beyond sad at this point.
   1530. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: February 14, 2014 at 05:01 PM (#4657101)
On a side note, this Martin business is just beyond sad at this point.

Also amazing is how much Incognito is going out of his way to Not Get It.
   1531. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 14, 2014 at 05:09 PM (#4657108)
Also amazing is how much Incognito is going out of his way to Not Get It.


To his defense, Richie Incognito has not done anything that he wasn't coached to do since he was five years old. He's being hung out to dry by the NFL on this in the classic "bad apple" playbook. See also Bush/Cheney and Abu Ghraib.
   1532. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 14, 2014 at 05:11 PM (#4657110)
On a side note, this Martin business is just beyond sad at this point.


In reaching this conclusion, we were significantly influenced by multiple
factors, including the flagrantly inappropriate treatment of the Assistant Trainer and
Player A, which, independent of Martin’s claims, reflected a pattern of harassment.
Moreover, shortly after Martin left the team, Incognito made a number of telling entries
in a notebook used to keep track of “fines” the offensive linemen imposed on each other
in their “kangaroo court” ... Incognito recorded a $200 fine against himself for “breaking Jmart,” awarded
another lineman who had been verbally taunted a $250 bonus for “not cracking first,” and
wrote down a number of penalties against Martin for acting like a “pussy.” The evidence
shows, and Incognito did not dispute, that “breaking Jmart” meant causing Martin to have
an emotional reaction in response to taunting. Approximately one week after Martin left
the team, on November 3, 2013, Incognito wrote nearly identical text messages to
Pouncey and another lineman: “They’re going to suspend me Please destroy the fine
book first thing in the morning.” We view Incognito’s entries in the fine book about
“breaking Jmart” and his attempt to destroy the fine book—which was unsuccessful—as
evidence demonstrating his awareness that he had engaged i
   1533. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 14, 2014 at 05:23 PM (#4657114)
To his defense, Richie Incognito has not done anything that he wasn't coached to do since he was five years old.


Disagree, Richie has gotten in trouble everywhere he's played, college, other NFL teams, it's just that the Dolphins accepted and even encouraged his act.
   1534. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: February 14, 2014 at 05:57 PM (#4657123)
Incognito can't even be credited with the "winner" intangibles. The best record for a team which he played a full season is 8-8, and he was part of those horrible Rams squads that posted records of, in order, 3-13, 2-14 and 1-15.
   1535. Lassus Posted: February 14, 2014 at 06:47 PM (#4657153)
To his defense, Richie Incognito has not done anything that he wasn't coached to do since he was five years old.

Even if one was to agree with this, the fact that thousands of identical men with identical life-long coaching have somehow managed to avoid doing this is not exactly inconsequential.
   1536. spike Posted: February 14, 2014 at 07:03 PM (#4657158)
He certainly wasn't coached to abuse the trainer and the golf club employee in any event.
   1537. zenbitz Posted: February 14, 2014 at 08:19 PM (#4657178)
"Was I wrong to do that? Was that not OK?" - the Constanza defense.
   1538. Swoboda is freedom Posted: February 14, 2014 at 09:27 PM (#4657195)
"Was I wrong to do that? Was that not OK?" - the Constanza defense.

If I had known that was frowned upon...


Unless you are pinning your theory on Panama or Grenada or some other tiny war, where is the massive conquest that helped build the US in the 20th century.

Don't you be knockin' my war. I help make the Caribbean safe for democracy. The US is 1-0 in wars I fought in. Undefeated baby.
   1539. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 14, 2014 at 09:41 PM (#4657199)
Don't you be knockin' my war. I help make the Caribbean safe for democracy. The US is 1-0 in wars I fought in. Undefeated baby.
who can argue with a record like that. get this man a ticket for syria.
   1540. spike Posted: February 15, 2014 at 04:17 PM (#4657402)
   1541. Mefisto Posted: February 15, 2014 at 04:40 PM (#4657410)
Apropos of Kansas, this is pretty awesome.
   1542. BDC Posted: February 15, 2014 at 05:00 PM (#4657422)
Interesting about Kansas is that (AFAIK) it's a state that, like Texas, has no general anti-discrimination law. Unlike Oregon and many other states, for instance, I reckon that gay individuals or couples have no general grounds for complaint there if they suspect discrimination. I suppose this pro-discrimination law was drafted because of anxieties over federal and interstate marriage rights. Still, it seems otiose as well as homophobic.

I would be glad to be corrected by the legal contingent here and learn that gay Kansans, or Texans for that matter, have rights I don't know about. (The Texas situation is only at the state level; most of our bigger cities have anti-discrimination ordinances.)
   1543. Publius Publicola Posted: February 15, 2014 at 08:16 PM (#4657468)
Michael Dunn, standing his ground:

Partial Verdict Reached in Florida Killing Over Loud Music
The jury has reached a partial verdict in the trial of Michael Dunn, the Florida man who shot a teenager to death during a dispute over loud music, the jury notified the judge on Saturday afternoon...

Mr. Dunn, 47, a software developer, was charged with premeditated murder in the Nov. 23, 2012, death of Jordan Davis, 17, as well as three counts of attempted murder, involving three of Mr. Davis’s friends who were in the car that Mr. Dunn fired upon. Mr. Davis was black, as are the three other teenagers. Mr. Dunn is white.
   1544. Lassus Posted: February 15, 2014 at 11:06 PM (#4657489)
Shooting and killing a black teen in Florida: still not murder, apparently.
   1545. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 15, 2014 at 11:42 PM (#4657502)
Shooting and killing a black teen in Florida: still not murder, apparently.

Yeah, this is another great case for that Florida law, isn't it?

Under the law, Mr. Dunn needed only to have been convinced that he saw a shotgun, whether or not one was present.


Which of course gave Dunn every incentive to lie through his teeth.

OTOH he could still wind up serving 60 years for 3 convictions on attempted murder, where he emptied his gun into an occupied car but luckily didn't hit anybody. Hopefully the judge will take that into consideration and give this killer the maximum possible sentence, which could wind up effectively putting him in jail for life. And hopefully the prosecutor will exercise his option to re-try the first degree charge that ended in a mistrial, just to make sure he stays there.

   1546. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: February 16, 2014 at 02:03 AM (#4657524)
Shooting and killing a black teen in Florida: still not murder, apparently.

Pfft, he was probably armed with a sidewalk.
   1547. Publius Publicola Posted: February 16, 2014 at 09:47 AM (#4657562)
He must have doubled-back.
   1548. I am going to be Frank Posted: February 16, 2014 at 10:29 AM (#4657564)
So if someone on the jury believed that the shooter was convinced he saw a shot gun, then why he convicted of those other charges? Does self-defense/stand your ground make that distinction?
   1549. Publius Publicola Posted: February 16, 2014 at 11:28 AM (#4657588)
Since it was three counts of attempted murder, I'm assuming they reference the other three passengers in the car where Dunn unloaded his weapon.
   1550. Publius Publicola Posted: February 16, 2014 at 11:31 AM (#4657590)
Thinking about it, there's definitely going to be some blowback on this law when a white person is killed by a minority claiming self defense.
   1551. I am going to be Frank Posted: February 16, 2014 at 11:43 AM (#4657597)
I understand that, but at least one person on the jury felt that the shooter could have thought that there was a shotgun somewhere so then why is there a distinction between the one teen who was killed and the other three which he only "attempted" to kill. If he felt he was threatened then would he not be "justified" in all his actions?
   1552. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: February 16, 2014 at 11:56 AM (#4657599)
I understand that, but at least one person on the jury felt that the shooter could have thought that there was a shotgun somewhere so then why is there a distinction between the one teen who was killed and the other three which he only "attempted" to kill. If he felt he was threatened then would he not be "justified" in all his actions?

I assume once they are driving away in terror, he can no longer reasonably fear for his safety.
   1553. Publius Publicola Posted: February 16, 2014 at 11:58 AM (#4657601)
At the risk of reading the minds of the jurors, I assume they're adhering to the dubious logic that since Davis was the one holding the shotgun, he was the only one who was a threat. And the judge, also perceiving the dubious logic, kicked it back to the jury to think it through a little more.

Just my read but IANAL.
   1554. Jim Wisinski Posted: February 16, 2014 at 12:40 PM (#4657627)
Three other teenagers, the subjects of the attempted murder charges, were in the car but were not struck. Mr. Dunn continued to fire at the vehicle even as it pulled away


That's the reasoning for the attempted murder charges going through. What amazes me most about the story is this:

Mr. Dunn, who was visiting from out of town, left the scene and did not call 911 or the police after the shooting. Instead, he returned to his hotel, and the next morning drove two and a half hours to his home in Brevard County.


Isn't that a crime in itself? I assume that if you pull out your gun and shoot somebody you're supposed to report it to the police and remain in the area for questioning.
   1555. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 16, 2014 at 01:37 PM (#4657680)
Dunn really sounds like a lovely character.

While awaiting trial, Dunn wrote numerous letters that indicate his anxiety over the jury’s racial makeup and his deepening prejudice against black people. In one letter, Dunn explains:

“I just got off the phone with you and we were taking about how racist the blacks are up here. The more time I am exposed to these people, the more prejudiced against them I become.”

In another, Dunn complains that “jails are full of blacks,” and proposes a troubling solution:

“This may sound a bit radical, but if more people would arm themselves and kill these ####### idiots when they’re threatening you, eventually they may take the hint and change their behavior.”

He also wrote about his plans to find a “slimy civil-law lawyer” to sue Duval County for “reverse-discrimination.”


His letters, in his original handwriting, are here.
   1556. spike Posted: February 16, 2014 at 02:15 PM (#4657704)
Would it not be legal by definition in a state with a "stand your ground law" to shoot on sight anyone taking advantage of an "open carry" law?
   1557. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 16, 2014 at 02:18 PM (#4657706)
Another example of The Decline of American Civilization, as seen by the Dumbing Down of our schools. Here's the latest assignment our 7th grade goddaughter just got handed to her. Any resemblances to the Alec Baldwin speech in Glengarry Glen Ross is purely coincidental:

ASSIGNMENT:

“Your Country Needs You!” – China Philosophies Essay

President Obama has just been sworn in for his second term and is beginning work on building his plan for the next four years as President. He has four years to lead the country and asks his advisors for help in his decision on how to lead the nation.

Goal: Write a Policy Brief for the President on different types of philosophies he could adapt to leading the country.

Your Policy Brief will be five paragraphs in length, following this format:

· Paragraph 1: Describe the Warring States Period of China and how it is either similar or different from the current status of the United States of America .

o Support how the US is or is not like the Warring States Period of China.

o 5-7 sentences explaining the Warring States Period.

· Paragraph 2: Describe the main beliefs of the Chinese philosophy that you have chosen. You must include a quotation from the philosophy and analyze the quotation to support your description.

o Use and analyze (explain) a quotation.

o 5-7 sentences that describe the main beliefs of the philosophy.

· Paragraph 3 (Conclusion): Select which philosophy you think would be best for the President to use in leading the country for the next four years.

o Support your answer with two reasons you feel that the philosophy is the best choice.

o 5-7 sentences that explain the philosophy that you chose is the best for the President to use for the next four years.


Students receiving an A+ will get a further advanced test to compete for a scholarship to Stanford in the class of 2023.

Students receiving an A will be retained in the International Baccalaureate Program for the coming Fall semester.

Students receiving any grade below that will be given a choice of a Summer internship at either Popeye's or Papa John's, with full employee discounts.

   1558. Publius Publicola Posted: February 16, 2014 at 02:46 PM (#4657721)
Dunn grabbed his semi-automatic pistol from his car’s glove compartment, fired nine bullets into the vehicle Davis was occupying, along with Tevin Thompson, Leland Brunson, and Tommie Stornes, and killed Davis. Dunn, along with his fiancé, who was purchasing snacks at the convenience store when the killing occurred, returned to the hotel room where the two were staying, ordered pizza and went to sleep.


His fiance sounds like a lovely person too.
   1559. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 16, 2014 at 03:40 PM (#4657737)
Dunn, along with his fiancé, who was purchasing snacks at the convenience store when the killing occurred, returned to the hotel room where the two were staying, ordered pizza and went to sleep.


This statement is useless without information on the pizza provider involved, not to mention the toppings ordered.
   1560. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 16, 2014 at 04:45 PM (#4657750)
This statement is useless without information on the pizza provider involved, not to mention the toppings ordered.
i believe it was hawaiian pizza from papa johns. they are, truly, history's greatest monsters.
   1561. JL Posted: February 16, 2014 at 05:04 PM (#4657762)
I understand that, but at least one person on the jury felt that the shooter could have thought that there was a shotgun somewhere so then why is there a distinction between the one teen who was killed and the other three which he only "attempted" to kill. If he felt he was threatened then would he not be "justified" in all his actions?


Not necessarily. According to the article, they were going with first degree murder alleging that it was pre-meditated. The basis for that was that Dunn "had had enough time to reflect before shooting, which was why they accused him of premeditated murder." So they could have thought no self-defense yet also not thought premeditation.

In another article I saw, Dunn's fiancee testified that he never mentioned the other gun until months after this happened. That likely undercut his defense.
   1562. Gonfalon B. Posted: February 16, 2014 at 05:19 PM (#4657769)
i believe it was hawaiian pizza from papa johns. they are, truly, history's greatest monsters.

Hawaiian pizza from Papa Johns... AND wine purchased at a gas station. Vintage 2011 and 9/10ths.
   1563. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 17, 2014 at 12:17 AM (#4657863)
So they could have thought no self-defense yet also not thought premeditation.


Or they could have thought "if you shoot someone to death because they were playing a radio loud, you're a murderer and deserve to go to jail for life."
   1564. BrianBrianson Posted: February 17, 2014 at 06:40 AM (#4657911)
Which is the obvious question no news sources I can find address: Was convicted of 2nd degree murder an option to the jury?

Socialism to the rescue! Okay, so if they did have that option, seeing 3x attempted murder but not 1x actual murder. For what it's worth, I haven't seen anything to suggest that 1st is appropriate over 2nd. If there's a reason he was charged with 1st beyond a spaghetti approach, I haven't seen it.
   1565. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 17, 2014 at 09:19 AM (#4657920)
Back from my convention, nice to see all the evidence for massive US conquest and support for GFs theory. I would also like to point out that once Japan and Germany basically abandoned the GF theory of ascendency (Empire good, neighbors are only good for conquering) they had a great run. In fact Japan has done worse as it has slowly built up its military again and Germany is closer to European domination now than it likely ever has been (with nary a shot fired by it).

And yes Papa John's is not very good pizza (sweet sauce does not belong on pizza), but if hungry I'll eat it (including Hawaiian pizza - which is not my favorite).

I have no comment regarding Florida and it allowing people to semi-randomly kill other people, other than their approach to law and law enforcement strikes me as problematic for many reasons.
   1566. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 17, 2014 at 09:37 AM (#4657923)
In other news ...

The Health Insurance Marketplace: February Enrollment Report has been released. (Warning! PDF)

Key findings from today’s report include:

Nearly 3.3 million (3,299,500) people selected Marketplace plans from Oct. 1, 2013, through Feb. 1, 2014, including 1.4 million in the State Based Marketplaces and 1.9 million in the Federally-facilitated Marketplace.
Of the almost 3.3 million:
55 percent are female and 45 percent are male;
31 percent are age 34 and under;
25 percent are between the ages of 18 and 34;
62 percent selected a Silver plan, while 19 percent selected a Bronze plan; and
82 percent selected a plan and are eligible to receive Financial Assistance, up from 79 percent during the Oct. 1 through Dec 28, 2013 reporting period.



Shockingly the website sucking and a raft of lies and distortions about the law has not derailed it, because people want health insurance. They know anyone can get sick and they don't want to go bankrupt or die without healthcare. Of course I am sure we will keep hearing about those seven people who loved their previous insurance and are now paying more (or whatever), but in total ACA is rounding into the success many hoped it would be.
   1567. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 17, 2014 at 09:48 AM (#4657927)
And last an update on the House election.

In recent weeks, the generic ballot has shown results ranging from a Democratic lead of around six to seven points to a Republican lead of two to three points. According to the HuffPost Pollster polling average, the most recent results show a small Democratic advantage. Based on these results, the most likely outcome of the 2014 midterm election appears to be a very small gain for Republicans, although a similarly small gain for Democrats cannot be ruled out.
   1568. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 17, 2014 at 09:51 AM (#4657928)
Has any source reported what the offensive music was that drove Mr. Dunn to such lengths? I mean, I'm not saying killing someone is justifiable if they insist on loudly blaring Thugnificent and the Lethal Interjection Crew, but...well, actually I am saying that.
   1569. Publius Publicola Posted: February 17, 2014 at 09:59 AM (#4657931)
I have no comment regarding Florida and it allowing people to semi-randomly kill other people, other than their approach to law and law enforcement strikes me as problematic for many reasons.


Well, it's a way to remove these thugs from the streets at no cost to the taxpayer.

So there's that...
   1570. Mefisto Posted: February 17, 2014 at 11:10 AM (#4657970)
Was convicted of 2nd degree murder an option to the jury?


Based on what I've read, yes. All lesser included offenses, down to manslaughter, were the subject of instruction.

   1571. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 17, 2014 at 12:35 PM (#4658017)
Dunn really sounds like a lovely character.


I am still waiting for leaders in the white community to condemn his thug lifestyle.
   1572. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 17, 2014 at 12:40 PM (#4658019)

Interesting about Kansas is that (AFAIK) it's a state that, like Texas, has no general anti-discrimination law. Unlike Oregon and many other states, for instance, I reckon that gay individuals or couples have no general grounds for complaint there if they suspect discrimination. I suppose this pro-discrimination law was drafted because of anxieties over federal and interstate marriage rights. Still, it seems otiose as well as homophobic.

I would be glad to be corrected by the legal contingent here and learn that gay Kansans, or Texans for that matter, have rights I don't know about. (The Texas situation is only at the state level; most of our bigger cities have anti-discrimination ordinances.)


Lawrence (where the U of Kansas is located) has such an ordinance. I think Topeka (home of the Westboro Baptist Church) has one as well. Salina and Hutchinson had such ordinances at one time, but they were repealed. I think that's pretty much it.
   1573. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 17, 2014 at 02:10 PM (#4658059)
Perhaps the worst nation on earth. Just as bad, and maybe even a bit worse, than you imagined it.
   1574. Greg K Posted: February 17, 2014 at 02:15 PM (#4658062)
Germany is closer to European domination now than it likely ever has been (with nary a shot fired by it).

I've probably mentioned it before, but Niall Ferguson argues that the German war aims in the First World War (when they actually got around to thinking of any) look an awful lot like the current economic system in Europe. So he lays significant blame on the British for getting involved in the war and sacrificing all those lives (not to mention setting the stage for WW2) to prevent something that it turns out isn't such a big deal after all.

I don't find it terribly convincing, but I do find the war aims issue in the early days of the First World War fascinating. It's almost like everyone got involved without first thinking about what it was they were trying to accomplish. Then had to figure it out on the fly. David Stevenson, who I think is a much better writer on the topic, spends a lot of time in Cataclysm talking about how the war was a political tragedy more than anything else, with political leaders in all nations, rather than military leadership, being responsible for the outbreak. Weakness and ambiguity in what they were trying to achieve by going to war is what made it such a disaster.

EDIT: Been a while since I read Stevenson, so I could be poorly summarizing his point.
   1575. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 17, 2014 at 02:30 PM (#4658072)
Greg K, interesting. I have not read the works in question, but I am not sure I agree, if only because that feels like projecting a more modern attitude onto the powers of WWI. They were where GF is now, Empire good! Peace only OK as a break between wars and colonial conquests.

I am sure there are elements of today's system in what they wanted then, but from what I can tell they would have been largely baffled by the thought that peace pays much higher dividends than war. Of course some of that was because before the US Civil War (or so) generally war had a much higher reward to it. WWI (and wars after that) showed the huge cost modern warfare had and the paltry returns is offered.

I am not sure entrenched leadership would have believed that without many examples. Which the 20th century supplied in bulk.
   1576. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 17, 2014 at 02:52 PM (#4658083)
Too late to edit, but I agree with you in that I don't find the case you describe as being convincing - my not agreeing above is not agreeing with author guy's theory.

Of course now my explanation is confusing enough to fit right into the mess that was WWI and the various aims of the nations, where as you suggest it appears most nations did not even know what they wanted to say nothing of failing to understand what everyone else was doing or wanted.
   1577. Lassus Posted: February 17, 2014 at 03:14 PM (#4658093)
Perhaps the worst nation on earth. Just as bad, and maybe even a bit worse, than you imagined it.

At some point in the last decade I had a nightmare that North Korea was harboring a crashed spaceship and an FTL drive that no one ever finds because of how ###### up the place is.
   1578. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 17, 2014 at 03:17 PM (#4658098)
scalia joins with jon stewart in fight against.....chicago style pizza.
   1579. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: February 17, 2014 at 03:38 PM (#4658111)
scalia joins with jon stewart in fight against.....chicago style pizza.

American problems.



The state has used food as a means of control over the population. It has prioritised those whom the authorities believe to be crucial to maintaining the regime over those deemed expendable.
The state has practised discrimination with regard to access to and distribution of food based on the songbun system. In addition, it privileges certain parts of the country, such as Pyongyang, over others.

N. Korean problems.
   1580. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 17, 2014 at 04:00 PM (#4658121)
American problems.


N. Korean problems.


Maybe (but I doubt), non democratic countries are effective relative to democratic countries in some respects, but the lows in non democracies are MUCH lower. Why anyone would think democracy is a bad idea clearly has not surveyed the differences between democratic and non democratic countries in the 21st century. It is no contest.
   1581. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 17, 2014 at 04:16 PM (#4658132)
isn't the jury verdict in florida telling yahoos to make sure to kill everyone versus leaving witnesses?

maybe I am misinterpreting but that is how it strikes me at first glance
   1582. Ron J2 Posted: February 17, 2014 at 04:18 PM (#4658134)
#1580 I think Cuba is likely a better place to be really poor than most any place I can think of. Just as well in that it's pretty tough to avoid being really poor there.

(In case it's not clear, this is not advocating totalitarian socialism. Cuba's the high point and it's not what you'd call a success story)
   1583. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 17, 2014 at 04:24 PM (#4658139)
isn't the jury verdict in florida telling yahoos to make sure to kill everyone versus leaving witnesses?


Start an argument about loud music.

Go back to your car, get a gun.

Unload your gun into the car with four people inside it.

Kill one. Three survive.

Go to jail for three counts of attempted murder (the guys you didn't kill.)

Be found not-guilty for the guy you killed.

Yeah. Kill 'em all and then say they attacked you with a sidewalk.
   1584. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 17, 2014 at 04:42 PM (#4658148)
Kill one. Three survive. Go to jail for three counts of attempted murder (the guys you didn't kill.) Be found not-guilty for the guy you killed. Yeah. Kill 'em all and then say they attacked you with a sidewalk.

Dunn wasn't found Not Guilty - there was a hung jury on that count, a very big difference. Dunn's rather weak self-defense claim was aided by the fact that the police didn't search the other areas of the shopping mall where the car had moved to for the "missing shotgun", and the initial police search missed some basic things like shell casing, creating the possibility of some doubt about the thoroughness and professionalism of the investigation. Had everyone in the car been killed, the car would likely not have been driven away, there would have been a thorough search of the crime scene, and the existence of any weapons would have been clearly established one way or another. So, once again, Sam is wrong on just about everything.

   1585. The Good Face Posted: February 17, 2014 at 04:51 PM (#4658151)
Maybe (but I doubt), non democratic countries are effective relative to democratic countries in some respects, but the lows in non democracies are MUCH lower. Why anyone would think democracy is a bad idea clearly has not surveyed the differences between democratic and non democratic countries in the 21st century. It is no contest.


Based on a cursory look at the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea, or perhaps the Democratic Republic of the Congo, it seems clear that there is, indeed, no contest. I'd much prefer to live in Liechtenstein, Singapore, or the UAE.
   1586. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 17, 2014 at 04:57 PM (#4658153)
Based on a cursory look at the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea, or perhaps the Democratic Republic of the Congo, it seems clear that there is, indeed, no contest. I'd much prefer to live in Liechtenstein, Singapore, or the UAE.
this might not be the worst argument in the world, but it's clearly dipping its left foot into it.
   1587. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:03 PM (#4658157)
It's good to know you're still in the business of justifying killing kids, Clapper.
   1588. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:10 PM (#4658162)
Based on a cursory look at the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea, or perhaps the Democratic Republic of the Congo, it seems clear that there is, indeed, no contest. I'd much prefer to live in Liechtenstein, Singapore, or the UAE.


So are you really going with "It has the word Democratic in the name so ..."?

That's pretty sad dude.

Feel free to list your choices for top and bottom countries in the world that are are democratic and then for not democratic (by the way North Korea is in the not democratic pile), and then explain why democracy is so terrible because just look at the evidence.

You can put it right next to your list of great and useful military conquests of the 20th century (US division).
   1589. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:17 PM (#4658164)
also, this:
2.7.1: If we could perform a controlled experiment pitting reactionary versus progressive ideals, what would it look like?

Well, assuming you were God and had infinite power and resources, you could take a very homogeneous country and split it in half.

One side gets a hereditary absolute monarch, whose rule is law and who is succeeded by his sons and by his sons’ sons. The population is inculcated with neo-Confucian values of respect for authority, respect for the family, and cultural solidarity, but these values are supplemented by a religious ideal honoring the monarch as a near-god and the country as a specially chosen holy land. American cultural influence is banned on penalty of death; all media must be produced in-country, and missionaries are shot on site. The country’s policies are put in the hands of a group of technocratic nobles hand-picked by the king.

The other side gets flooded with American missionaries preaching weird sects of Protestantism, and at the point of American guns is transformed into a parliamentary democracy. Its economy – again at the behest of American soldiers, who seem to be sticking around a sufficient long time – becomes market capitalism. It institutes a hundred billion dollar project to protect the environment, passes the strictest gun control laws in the world, develops a thriving gay culture, and elects a woman as President.

Turns out this perfect controlled experiment actually happened. Let’s see how it turned out!
   1590. OCF Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:17 PM (#4658165)
Of course some of that was because before the US Civil War (or so) generally war had a much higher reward to it. WWI (and wars after that) showed the huge cost modern warfare had and the paltry returns is offered.

Well, it was within living memory that the Prussian monarchy had had a smashing success through war, in 1870-1871, and that war lasted less than a year. Of course, the real goal there was the consolidation of the German state under Prussian leadership. Despite having utterly defeated France, they only added Alsace-Lorraine to their empire. The casualty totals of individual battles rivaled US Civil War battles, of course: that's what the guns of an industrialized army can do. But the casualties for the war as a whole where somewhat limited by the limited duration of the conflict.
   1591. Lassus Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:22 PM (#4658167)
Based on a cursory look at the Democratic People's Republic of North Korea, or perhaps the Democratic Republic of the Congo, it seems clear that there is, indeed, no contest.

Beaten to it, but this is laughable.
   1592. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:25 PM (#4658169)
Ahh, the glorious, empire building nation of Lichtenstein. It's neighbors shake in their boots at the mere mention of the name...
   1593. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:31 PM (#4658172)
isn't the jury verdict in florida telling yahoos to make sure to kill everyone versus leaving witnesses?

maybe I am misinterpreting but that is how it strikes me at first glance

I am not defending the verdict by any means, but at a cursory reading I don't think that conclusion is justified Harv.

If he had killed all 4 on the spot, there would have been nobody left to hide the "missing" shotgun. Which makes the self defense claim a lot less convincing.

Also, if he fires and kills the other 3 while the car is in motion, he is definitely going down for murder on those. On the same grounds that he was convicted of attempted murder. Once the car is moving away from him, he can have no reasonable fear for his safety.
   1594. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:33 PM (#4658173)
at a cursory reading I don't think that conclusion is justified Harv.

boy I hope so. but critical thinking skills and florida do not seem to be on speaking terms
   1595. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:39 PM (#4658174)
critical thinking skills and florida do not seem to be on speaking terms


I laughed.
   1596. The Good Face Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:40 PM (#4658175)
So are you really going with "It has the word Democratic in the name so ..."?


They have elections. They have political parties. In north Korea, there are even representatives from different parties that hold seats in the Supreme People's Assembly; in fact they have greater diversity in representation than USG has in congress. Claiming that it's somehow "not democratic" is simply a No True Scotsman fallacy. It's just not YOUR kind of democracy, which isn't really the same thing at all.

You can put it right next to your list of great and useful military conquests of the 20th century (US division).


USG had completed its military land conquests by the end of the 19th century. It spent the first half of the 20th century consolidating its gains and becoming a global military and economic powerhouse, and the latter half of the 20th century though today using that might, military and otherwise, to enforce a sort of global status quo with itself at the top of the heap. Classic empire.
   1597. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:55 PM (#4658181)
They have elections. They have political parties. In north Korea, there are even representatives from different parties that hold seats in the Supreme People's Assembly; in fact they have greater diversity in representation than USG has in congress. Claiming that it's somehow "not democratic" is simply a No True Scotsman fallacy. It's just not YOUR kind of democracy, which isn't really the same thing at all.
this guy. just...wow.

says democracy sucks because of north korea and accuses someone else of a logical fallacy in the same breath.
   1598. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 17, 2014 at 06:08 PM (#4658187)
They have elections. They have political parties. In north Korea, there are even representatives from different parties that hold seats in the Supreme People's Assembly; in fact they have greater diversity in representation than USG has in congress. Claiming that it's somehow "not democratic" is simply a No True Scotsman fallacy.
What North Korea really needs is a strong leader with some real influence on its internal politics.
   1599. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 17, 2014 at 06:30 PM (#4658196)
in fact they have greater diversity in representation than USG has in congress.


North Korea has elected zero African-Americans in the Supreme People's Assembly since Reconstruction.
   1600. Jim Wisinski Posted: February 17, 2014 at 06:34 PM (#4658200)
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