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Saturday, February 01, 2014

OTP - Feb 2014: Politics remains a hurdle for immigration reform

Yet Obama might find his best-chance legislative compromise in an issue that lately has seemed to be on life support: an overhaul of the nation’s immigration laws.

Curiously, immigration was an issue the president barely mentioned in this year’s speech. Maybe he does not want to interfere with those Republicans who actually agree with him on the need to bring the nation’s millions of undocumented workers out of the shadows.

Bitter Mouse Posted: February 01, 2014 at 04:01 PM | 3524 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   2001. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 22, 2014 at 11:03 PM (#4660903)
As far as our good Yankee Clapper is concerned, Ted Nugent is a bad person not because he casually and unapologeticaly trades in white supremacist rhetoric, but because in doing so he is not being useful to Republican candidates for office.

Not what I said. I noted that his language was inappropriate, and that it was counter-productive. Two separate points. But as Sam demonstrates on an almost daily basis, he has no grounds to complain about others' lack of civility when his own rhetoric far exceeds the bounds of decency by any reasonable measurement.
   2002. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 22, 2014 at 11:14 PM (#4660906)
This is not a rhetorical question. I'd love to see some tighter gun controls, but my impression is that real world complaints about hostility towards the 2A are as anachronistic as calling for the destruction of the Berlin Wall.


Not really, no. They have talked about reinstating a revamped "assault weapons ban," but that only gets a few weeks of traction after any given horrific mass murder, and then the NRA floods cash back to the Congress and kills it. Of course, merely insinuating that there is a line where weapons might be "assault weapons" means he's building secret gulags to the folks who take Nugent seriously. (And Cruz, whether he believes it personally or not, certainly depends on that demographic for votes in Texas.)

To understand the mindset at play with these guys, consider: when Obama was elected, the NRA and its organs pushed a very hard "they're coming for you" storyline to the fringe nutwings. This included many variants, from FEMA camps to a very popular theory that because he couldn't ban guns due to the 2nd, Obama was going to ban ammunition. As a secret Muslim socialist, he was going to subvert the Constitution by this end around about banning bullets. This led to a long term run on ammo. That led to an increase in ammo prices. Now, basic economics tells you and me what's going on there, but to the wingers, it was Obama levying new "taxes" to make ammo more expensive. So of course, they hoard more. Etc, et al. That's the mindset at work here. That's the Ted Nugent line of thinking, and that's who Abbott and Cruz are courting politically.
   2003. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 22, 2014 at 11:19 PM (#4660907)
I noted that his language was inappropriate


Ah yes, Jimmy. "Inappropriate." Way to get out in front of that one. White supremacist, neo-Nazi rhetoric, and you suggest that it's akin to using the salad fork too soon. And then drop your real concern, which is that Abbott's courting of the apparent white supremacist Ted Nugent is problematic mostly because it is bad press for the national GOP brand.

I'm pretty sure that if a Democratic proxy suggested that an Israeli leader was a "sub-human mongrel" the embracing of neo-Nazi tropes would suddenly become far more important to you. Because all you care about is spinning for the sake of your partisan goals.
   2004. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: February 22, 2014 at 11:50 PM (#4660915)
#### anybody who cares when or how you pick up a damn salad fork.
   2005. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 23, 2014 at 12:01 AM (#4660918)
I don't think Nugent's language is appropriate or useful to whatever causes or candidates he supports


This is not an answer to my question. I asked how it made you feel. I did not ask if you thought it OK, appropriate or helpful to the GOP. Just simply how you, the person, felt when you read it. Happy, angry, annoyed, bored, what?
   2006. BDC Posted: February 23, 2014 at 12:32 AM (#4660920)
You say that now, PASTE, but wait till you're at Highclere Castle trying to stab your roast beef with some puny little utensil because you already gobbled your salad with the dinner fork.
   2007. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: February 23, 2014 at 12:50 AM (#4660922)
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I would touch salad with any utensil.
   2008. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 23, 2014 at 07:35 AM (#4660946)
You seem to be under the mistaken impression that I would touch salad with any utensil.


"You have just served me food that my food eats."
   2009. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 23, 2014 at 08:00 AM (#4660947)
I don't think Nugent's language is appropriate or useful to whatever causes or candidates he supports


This is not an answer to my question. I asked how it made you feel. I did not ask if you thought it OK, appropriate or helpful to the GOP. Just simply how you, the person, felt when you read it. Happy, angry, annoyed, bored, what?

Personally I wish this creep would one day wake up and find himself a 'mongrel', and then spend the rest of his worthless life protesting, "No, you don't understand, I'm not one of them! I'm really white like you!"

Or alternately, he could just meet the fate of Harry Lime in The Third Man.
   2010. spike Posted: February 23, 2014 at 12:18 PM (#4661007)
I know the right wing has been convinced that Obama will take away their guns, but has he done anything on that front at all?

Sure - he's liberalized them, signing into law bills that allow personal carry in national parks (overturning Reagan's policy of locking in the trunk) and permitting carry in checked Amtrak bags. On balance, there is no more easily frightened or hoodwinked group than "gun rights" advocates. They will believe and contribute to anyone that tells them they are threatened. The price of ammo and guns has skyrocketed again, just like after 2008 because "this time he doesn't have to worry about re-election".

There's a reason "Goldline" advertises on Beck and not Jeopardy.
   2011. spike Posted: February 23, 2014 at 12:22 PM (#4661008)
Personally I wish this creep would one day wake up and find himself a 'mongrel'

Perhaps just a review of the Vic Morrow segment from the Twilight Zone movie would work.
   2012. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 23, 2014 at 12:42 PM (#4661016)
Great Twilight Zone clip, but how does the story end?
   2013. spike Posted: February 23, 2014 at 12:46 PM (#4661019)
Badly, both in real life and in the film -

Plot Summary

Accidental death on set
   2014. Lassus Posted: February 23, 2014 at 02:16 PM (#4661059)
Not what I said. I noted that his language was inappropriate, and that it was counter-productive. Two separate points.

Well, it is what you said, even if it isn't what you meant. Commas are important.
   2015. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 23, 2014 at 02:56 PM (#4661077)
Badly, both in real life and in the film -

Thanks, spike. I'd known how Morrow died in real life, but during the heyday of The Twilight Zone, I wasn't watching much TV other than sports and news and I've only seen a handful of episodes. But now that I see that the one you linked to is on YouTube, I'm going to see what I missed. It's a fate I've wished on many a bigot over the years, plus some of their clueless non-bigoted enablers.
   2016. spike Posted: February 23, 2014 at 03:11 PM (#4661089)
It's from the film by John Landis, not the Rod Serling TV show, just in case I wasn't clear.
   2017. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 23, 2014 at 03:57 PM (#4661112)
Thanks for clearing that up. I'll take out the movie, too.
   2018. GregD Posted: February 24, 2014 at 11:37 AM (#4661390)
I have been wary of the "purpling" of Texas--though I hope I'm wrong. This probably unreliable poll shows how uphill the battle is. The leading candidate for the U.S. Senate primary is a LaRouche backer who has promised to impeach Obama and fund a Mars mission, running right now 7 points ahead of the actual Democrat whom the entire party machinery is backing.

That said, I could imagine the day--doubt it will be this time--when Texans elect a Democratic governor in the way Jersey and Mass voters sometimes elect Republicans while keeping Dem control of the legislature and federal offices. The one cross-partisan move people make is to get interested in checking the legislature with a governor of the other party.
   2019. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 24, 2014 at 12:02 PM (#4661403)
I have been wary of the "purpling" of Texas--though I hope I'm wrong. This probably unreliable poll shows how uphill the battle is. The leading candidate for the U.S. Senate primary is a LaRouche backer who has promised to impeach Obama and fund a Mars mission, running right now 7 points ahead of the actual Democrat whom the entire party machinery is backing.


I wouldn't put much stock in that at all.

Voters are largely unfamiliar with those candidates; 74 percent initially expressed no opinion before being asked how they would vote if they had to decide now.


Its probably name recognition at this point.

If it makes you feel better, in another way-too-early-poll, Kansas Republican Governor Sam Brownback is down to his Dem opponents in the polls. I guess Davis would probably be up by way more though if he didn't have Obamacare dragging him down!
   2020. GregD Posted: February 24, 2014 at 12:19 PM (#4661417)
Well she's won 2 consecutive Democratic primaries against actual Democrats, though for a congressional seat not the senate.

I don't think it speaks to the LaRouche-ian nature of Texas Democrats. I think it does speak to the fundamentally amateurish nature of current Texas Democrats. For that matter, the Wendy Davis boom does too since until the filibuster 1) no one outside of Texas had ever heard of her and 2) until then they had no plausible candidate for governor, and I'm not sure that she is actually a plausible candidate either. Real parties don't need saviors. I don't see much evidence that statewide Texas Democrats are a real party, though they obviously have some pockets of deep strength that one would hope could be built on.

By contrast Democrats in Kansas and Oklahoma have had real organizations and real candidates, even against incredibly uphill odds, and I would not be shocked if they picked off Kansas governor (I would be hugely shocked of course if they won a Senate seat in a place like that.) Just as I wasn't shocked that Republicans in New Jersey--a real party though not my party--can win there or that in the 1980s and 1990s Massachusetts Republicans could win governor's races. You can see the collapse of the Massachusetts Republican Party in Scott Brown; the 1990s party didn't need a savior. It had a bench. Now all they have is Hail Marys. I hope that isn't true for Texas Democrats but it sure looks that way from afar.

   2021. The Good Face Posted: February 24, 2014 at 12:25 PM (#4661426)
Facists!

Followers of Good Face are controlling the AZ legislature?


People misunderstanding (and misspelling) fascism ITT. My politics are more in line with those of a conservative Victorian era gentleman than anything else; they might be many things to modern sensibilities, but they are not fascist.

So what's up RR? Haven't seen you in these parts much lately. Losing interest in the NBA?
   2022. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 24, 2014 at 12:52 PM (#4661447)
My politics are more in line with those of a conservative Victorian era gentleman than anything else


Yes, I agree with this. Of course I think most of the opinions of such gentlemen were idiotic, so there is that.

Regarding Texas, it is turning less red, but it will be a slow process. And I agree the Texas democratic party is in sad shape at the moment (as far as I can tell). Of course right now Texas is the conservative anchor (like California and New York for Team Blue), if it ever does even creep towards purple in national elections that is a catastrophe for the GOP. Absent a major realignment the GOP can't win if it has to fight for its backyard. But as was said, no immediate sign of that, just some long range trends that are a bit worrisome for the GOP.
   2023. spike Posted: February 24, 2014 at 01:05 PM (#4661460)
(I would be hugely shocked of course if they won a Senate seat in a place like that.)

The coverage Roberts' of lack of Kansas residence has hurt him pretty badly. Certainly still the prohibitive favorite, but there is a glimmer there.
   2024. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 24, 2014 at 01:25 PM (#4661480)
People misunderstanding (and misspelling) fascism ITT.


Pretty sure, GF, that that was a play on the misspelling, as in Facists=Good Face partisans, rather than an actual commentary on any stance you've taken.
   2025. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 24, 2014 at 01:27 PM (#4661481)
My politics are more in line with those of a conservative Victorian era gentleman than anything else;


The same class of thinker who held strong political allegiances with fascists in the 1930s. You can look up the English aristocracy's cozy relations there if you like.
   2026. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 24, 2014 at 01:30 PM (#4661485)
Bill Moyers on "The Deep State..." One wonders how much this would map to our Good Victorian Gentleman's "Cathedral."
   2027. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 24, 2014 at 01:31 PM (#4661487)
Regarding Texas, it is turning less red, but it will be a slow process.


Non-Hispanic whites are already under 50% in Texas.
The GOP controls Texas because:

1: Non-Hispanic whites are likely still a majority of those eligible to vote (ie., over 18, citizens and non-felons)
2: Non-Hispanic whites in Texas vote at a VERY high rate (pretty much the highest turnout rate of any significant sized group in the US, some Haredi groups in NY may be higher, but they are too few to swing state level elections)
3: Non-Hispanic white males in Texas vote as an almost uniform block.
4: The Texas GOP is NOT the Arizona GOP, and has managed not to be openly anti-Hispanic (something which Romney lambasted Perry for as Romney managed the neat trick of running to Perry's right during the 2012 primaries)- and Hispanics in Texas vote at lower rates than Hispanics in other parts of the US.

If non-Hispanic whites outside Texas voted like those in Texas, the GOP would take 75-90% of the House and Senate. This is of course the dream of those GOP types who do not want to widen the tent and "compromise" - some how find out how to get more white votes.

   2028. spike Posted: February 24, 2014 at 01:39 PM (#4661496)
some how find out how to get more white votes.

And as a corollary try to limit non-white votes.
   2029. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 24, 2014 at 01:43 PM (#4661502)
some how find out how to get more white votes


Yes. I think there is a pretty hard cap on how high the GOP share of white votes can go, and with a Black Democratic US President it is pretty near its high water mark right now. Of course maybe I am wrong. I suspect either the GOP (or a certain member of the Varmint Caucus) will be pretty enlightened and disappointed by the 2016 results.

EDIT: For odd typos.
   2030. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 24, 2014 at 01:44 PM (#4661504)
Well, we've got a Victorian era gentleman to go with whatever the #### Gaelan is -- a Dark Ages flagellant or something ... Anyone here self-identify as a Cro-Magnon?
   2031. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 24, 2014 at 01:48 PM (#4661509)
The coverage Roberts' of lack of Kansas residence has hurt him pretty badly. Certainly still the prohibitive favorite, but there is a glimmer there.


The biggest threat to him is not the Dem candidate (a no-name district attorney), but primary opponent and Tea Party activist Milton Wolf, who has made bigger headlines this week than Roberts.
   2032. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 24, 2014 at 01:48 PM (#4661510)
Anyone here self-identify as a Cro-Magnon?


Said the Talking Mongoose!*

* Said the other leader of the Varmint Caucus.
   2033. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 24, 2014 at 01:52 PM (#4661514)
Well, we've got a Victorian era gentleman to go with whatever the #### Gaelan is -- a Dark Ages flagellant or something ... Anyone here self-identify as a Cro-Magnon?


I'm an anarcho-syndicalist
   2034. spike Posted: February 24, 2014 at 02:15 PM (#4661530)
The biggest threat to him is not the Dem candidate

Oh no question about it. The idea is that if Roberts gets somehow knocked off in the primary, Wolf could easily Akin-ize the general.
   2035. The Good Face Posted: February 24, 2014 at 02:32 PM (#4661540)
The same class of thinker who held strong political allegiances with fascists in the 1930s. You can look up the English aristocracy's cozy relations there if you like.


I'm sensing some confusion as to the span and duration of the Victorian era. Not really sure how men who lived in the mid 19th century can be tarred as adherents to a 20th century political movement, but I'm sure you'll concoct a tortured narrative given time. When you're holding a hammer...
   2036. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 24, 2014 at 02:44 PM (#4661545)
Not really sure how men who lived in the mid 19th century can be tarred as adherents to a 20th century political movement


Well he did say "same class of thinker", so if you read what you quoted it would be obvious he was not talking about the same people, but rather the same class or tradition.
   2037. spike Posted: February 24, 2014 at 02:46 PM (#4661547)
   2038. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 24, 2014 at 03:08 PM (#4661568)
I'm sensing some confusion as to the span and duration of the Victorian era. Not really sure how men who lived in the mid 19th century can be tarred as adherents to a 20th century political movement


In which the "conservative" conveniently pretends to not understand the endurance of attitudes, culture and social institutions through various ages of a nation. You're precious, Junior.
   2039. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 24, 2014 at 03:13 PM (#4661571)
PublicPolicyPolling for KS:

44% support gay marriage, 48% against. 66% support same-sex civil unions. 29% support the bill to allow businesses to not serve gay couples.

64% support medicinal marijuana, 29% against.

49% support increasining min. wage to $10 an hour, 41% against. Its the lowest level of support they've found in any state.

Huckabee leads all GOP Presidential challengers, followed by Jeb and Chris Christie. All of the top GOP contenders lead Hillary in a head-to-head matchup by 7-9 points.

73% of Kasnas Royals fans believe the team is headed to the playoffs. 23% believe they will win the pennant.
   2040. BDC Posted: February 24, 2014 at 03:20 PM (#4661581)
From the article that spike linked in #2037:

Georgia has no law that protects gay people from discrimination, and is extremely unlikely to be passing one anytime soon. It thus has no reason -- not even a bad reason -- to pursue HB 1023


This is one of the problems I wondered about upthread. At the moment, unless you're in a place with a local anti-discrimination ordinance, you can refuse services to anybody you like in Georgia, and they can't claim discrimination on the grounds of sexual orientation or same-sex marital status. This kind of legislation tempts fate, I would think. By trying to protect the right to discriminate, legislators might undermine it where it actually exists.
   2041. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 24, 2014 at 03:24 PM (#4661583)
At the moment, unless you're in a place with a local anti-discrimination ordinance


Well I imagine there are some liberal outposts like Atlanta and Athens where such an ordinance could pass/has passed, and of course, those "states rights'-ists" are suddenly against local control.
   2042. The Good Face Posted: February 24, 2014 at 03:57 PM (#4661602)
In which the "conservative" conveniently pretends to not understand the endurance of attitudes, culture and social institutions through various ages of a nation. You're precious, Junior.


Right. Conservative men who lived and died in the 19th century would have bought into a radical new political philosophy that came into existence in the 20th century because REASONS. Dude, they were conservatives; fascism would have represented a massive philosophical and intellectual break for most of them. They would have looked upon fascists as abhorrent, revolutionary upstarts.

You're nothing if not predictable on this subject, but you're barking up the wrong tree.
   2043. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 24, 2014 at 04:07 PM (#4661606)
Right. Conservative men who lived and died in the 19th century would have bought into a radical new political philosophy that came into existence in the 20th century because REASONS.


Would they have agreed to take up the white man's burden even though it wasn't written by Kipling until 1899?
   2044. zonk Posted: February 24, 2014 at 04:13 PM (#4661608)
Seriously, WTF is wrong with Kansas?

The Daily Show's occasional showcase of states as the "meth labs of democracy" keeps sounding less clever and more descriptive by the day.
   2045. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 24, 2014 at 04:16 PM (#4661610)
So the (abdicated) king of England, among others, was, what ... a Fabian, maybe?
   2046. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 24, 2014 at 05:28 PM (#4661640)
Right. Conservative men who lived and died in the 19th century would have bought into a radical new political philosophy that came into existence in the 20th century because REASONS. Dude, they were conservatives; fascism would have represented a massive philosophical and intellectual break for most of them. They would have looked upon fascists as abhorrent, revolutionary upstarts.


Conservatives in many countries bought wholeheartedly into fascism because they were too horrified by the changes that were occurring in society and were particularly horrified by the rise in socialism to notice that what they were buying into also represented a radical break with the traditions they purportedly believed in. Fascists managed this trick by two basic strategies- 1: they pandered to the prejudices typically held by conservatives; 2: For so long as Fascists were reliant upon the support of specific conservatives, they'd lie shamelessly to those specific conservatives.

   2047. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 24, 2014 at 05:43 PM (#4661647)
Of course, the history for the first half of the 20th century in Europe is the story of fledgling liberal democracies failing, and the great battle of what if anything would replace those constitutional experiments. On the conservative right we had fascism. On the radical left we had universal communism. Conservatives across Europe glommed onto fascism as a retrenchment of their dres of old aristocracy.
   2048. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 24, 2014 at 05:50 PM (#4661649)
PublicPolicyPolling for KS:

44% support gay marriage, 48% against. 66% support same-sex civil unions. 29% support the bill to allow businesses to not serve gay couples.

64% support medicinal marijuana, 29% against.

49% support increasining min. wage to $10 an hour, 41% against. Its the lowest level of support they've found in any state.

Huckabee leads all GOP Presidential challengers, followed by Jeb and Chris Christie. All of the top GOP contenders lead Hillary in a head-to-head matchup by 7-9 points.

73% of Kansas Royals fans believe the team is headed to the playoffs. 23% believe they will win the pennant.


Bless their hearts. You gotta love Kansas in spite of everything. Even if they think that the Rapture is going to come along with the pennant.

   2049. The Good Face Posted: February 24, 2014 at 05:58 PM (#4661658)
Conservatives in many countries bought wholeheartedly into fascism because they were too horrified by the changes that were occurring in society and were particularly horrified by the rise in socialism to notice that what they were buying into also represented a radical break with the traditions they purportedly believed in. Fascists managed this trick by two basic strategies- 1: they pandered to the prejudices typically held by conservatives; 2: For so long as Fascists were reliant upon the support of specific conservatives, they'd lie shamelessly to those specific conservatives.


You guys gotta pick a narrative here, because you're trying to have it two ways.

Either conservatives are bound by,

the endurance of attitudes, culture and social institutions through various ages of a nation.


or they're seduced by the radical charms of working class revolutionaries as per your post above. But it can't be both.

If they're not bound by the endurance of tradition, etc., then why should we believe they'd become fascists as opposed to any other ideology du jour (other than Sam's need to label everybody he disagrees with as fascists)? It's not like conservative Victorian gentlemen had any beliefs in common with fascists other than a disdain for democracy, which they also shared with the communists. And if they are so bound, they'd be appalled by grubby proletarian revolutionaries usurping sovereignty that rightly belonged to the Crown and established institutions.

Speaking as a proper reactionary, that is to say one who's beliefs are generally in accordance with those of the aforementioned conservative Victorian gentlemen, fascism is abhorrent for two reasons. First, it's essentially democratic in character, in that fascist states invariably claim to rule in the name of the people, as a manifestation of the popular will. I'm fond of the neologism "demotic" to describe such phenomenon. Second, fascist states are revolutionary, founded in political violence and the overthrow of the existing order; those are the tactics of the left. And nothing good is likely to grow from that tainted fruit.
   2050. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:00 PM (#4661659)
Of course, the history for the first half of the 20th century in Europe is the story of fledgling liberal democracies failing, and the great battle of what if anything would replace those constitutional experiments. On the conservative right we had fascism. On the radical left we had universal communism. Conservatives across Europe glommed onto fascism as a retrenchment of their dres of old aristocracy.

You've got Baskin-Robbins beat -- that's 32 flavors of dumb. It's a compendium and confluence, a veritable surfeit, of dumb.
   2051. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:02 PM (#4661660)
You guys gotta pick a narrative here, because you're trying to have it two ways.

The sunny optimism on display here is appealing, but give it up -- you're never going to get these jokers to even see, much less admit, the contradictions and internal inconsistencies of the jive they hawk.

But it can't be both.

It can in their Fantasyland. Anything's possible there, just so long as mom and dad stay away.
   2052. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:03 PM (#4661661)
The accusation that I label anyone I disagree with a fascist is just slander and libel. Some of the best nights I've ever had were spent drinking with fascists.
   2053. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:05 PM (#4661664)
Fascists never claimed to be working class revolutionaries.
   2054. The Good Face Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:06 PM (#4661665)
Fascists never claimed to be working class revolutionaries.


Perhaps not. But that's mostly what they were.
   2055. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:08 PM (#4661667)
those are the tactics of the left. And nothing good is likely to grow from that tainted fruit.


When all else fails conservatives always attempt to disown fascism by claiming that fascism is a leftist phenomena... Fascinating.

Of course if you equate conservatism with monarchism I guess you're allowed to make that argument with a straight face
   2056. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:10 PM (#4661668)
The idea that Hitler was the Aristocrats' Choice is just breathtakingly, gobsmackingly stupid -- thus proving yet again the maxim that a little knowledge is a terrible thing.
   2057. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:16 PM (#4661671)
When all else fails conservatives always attempt to disown fascism by claiming that fascism is a leftist phenomena... Fascinating.

It was "leftist" in economics certainly, what with the state control and all.

That said, the Goldberg "Liberal Fascism" concept is pure garbage.

It was a mongrel, futuristic, ideology not owing much to either "right" or "left."

Of course if you equate conservatism with monarchism I guess you're allowed to make that argument with a straight face

Of course conservatism and the right in Europe were monarchist. How is that even debatable?


   2058. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:16 PM (#4661672)
Much like most right wing populists, the aristocracies was fine riding that tiger until it turned on them.
   2059. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:17 PM (#4661674)
There is nothing leftist about astate controlled means of production that does not serve the people.
   2060. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:18 PM (#4661675)
The idea that Hitler was the Aristocrats' Choice is just breathtakingly, gobsmackingly stupid -- thus proving yet again the maxim that a little knowledge is a terrible thing.


No he certainly wasn't' their first or even second choice. But, if the aristocrat in question saw the choice as binary, Hitler or the Socialists; or Hitler or anarchy,

then yes they supported Hitler, especially after he agreed to reign in guys like Strasser and Rohm.

   2061. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:20 PM (#4661678)
The appeal of fascism to a certain breed of "conservative" in certain critical times and places isn't at all complicated, and it's the same reflex that led a certain breed of "liberal" to embrace Stalin's Russia: The enemy of my enemy is my ally in times of crisis, if not my permanent ideological soulmate.

Christ, Hitler's biggest selling point to industrialists and other "traditional" elements of German society was that only the Nazis had the strength and will to resist the Communist tide. That message was sent in practically every speech and pamphlet the Hitlerites ever produced, before and after January of 1933. And it was that message that attracted many leading "conservatives" and "traditionalists" from all over the world---or do you think that the likes of Ford, Lindbergh, Joe Kennedy and the entire "Cliveden set" in England got sucked into Hitler's orbit because of his "revolutionary" rhetoric? You've got to be stone nuts to believe that.

   2062. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:20 PM (#4661679)
Looks like we won't have Alec Baldwin to kick around anymore - Baldwin Blames Everyone Else, Retires From Public Life.
   2063. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:24 PM (#4661680)
Wasn't he supposed to move to Greenland when Bush was re-elected?
   2064. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:27 PM (#4661681)
Much like most right wing populists, the aristocracies was fine riding that tiger until it turned on them.

Which pretty much parallels the fate of indigenous revolutionaries in Eastern Europe who had hitched their stars to Stalin. When the Soviets overran western Poland after the Hitler-Stalin pact, the very first group they targeted for liquidation was the Polish Communist Party. It was the same astute reasoning that during the third episode of The Lone Ranger led the outlaw Cavendish to kill his plant within the Texas Rangers: "I figure anyone who'd betray the Texas Rangers might turn around and betray us someday."

The moral of the story: There's a sucker born every minute.
   2065. steagles Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:28 PM (#4661683)
is it worth considering at all the fact that the american CIA basically spent the last 50 years of the 20th century propping up fascist dictatorships in the 3rd world specifically to combat the rise of communism? cambodia, chile, nicaragua, argentina, iran, iraq, syria, afghanistan, egypt.
   2066. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:32 PM (#4661687)
Second, fascist states are revolutionary, founded in political violence and the overthrow of the existing order; those are the tactics of the left. And nothing good is likely to grow from that tainted fruit.


When the order you are overthrowing itself rose to power by overthrowing the old aristocratic order, well, it's easy for a conservative to rationalize such radicalism. You are not overthrowing tradition, you are returning to tradition by overthrowing those who have usurped it.

I think the purest example of that fascist argument is Franco's Spain.
   2067. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:35 PM (#4661691)
Looks like we won't have Alec Baldwin to kick around anymore - Baldwin Blames Everyone Else, Retires From Public Life.


I’ve read where a number of people have felt that 2013 was a shitty year. For me, it was actually a great year, because my wife and I had a baby. But, yeah, everything else was pretty awful. And I find myself bitter, defensive, and more misanthropic than I care to admit. And I’m trying to understand what happened, how an altercation on the street, in which I was accused—wrongly—of using a gay slur, could have cascaded like this. There’s been a shift in my life. And it’s caused me to step back and say, This is happening for a reason.


Let's see, he's been getting into altercations ever since the day he was in the public eye (I presume before then as well), I'm sure there must be a common element/factor...

Also, he finds himself "more misanthropic than I care to admit." More? Has he actually noticed that he's been misanthropic and now he's distressed to find that he's becoming more so?
   2068. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:44 PM (#4661696)
is it worth considering at all the fact that the american CIA basically spent the last 50 years propping up fascists dictatorships in the 3rd world specifically to combat the rise of communism? cambodia, chile, nicaragua, argentina, iran, iraq, syria, afghanistan, egypt.


Authoritarian, but not necessarily fascistic.

Cambodia???? What fascist dictatorship did we prop up? Pol Pots?

Iran was a Monarchy, a thuggish monarchy ti be sure, but the government that replaced was surely more fascistic.

Iraq/Syria were close to being Fascist, but Syria was a Soviet client state- so was Iraq for the most part, we only later aided Hussein to #### with Iran, but we were never his main backer

Afghanistan? when have we ever propped up a fascist government on Afghanistan?

Egypt/ Egypt swung back and forth between us and the USSR, garden variety authoritarianism to be sure... If you're gonna throw out middle east countries to allege that we propped up a fascistic dictatorship I think the Saudi Ruling Family is a closer match, given the day to day control it excerpts over people's lives there.

Of the ones you mention I think Pinochet's Chile came closest to actual facsism.
   2069. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 24, 2014 at 06:54 PM (#4661702)
is it worth considering at all the fact that the american CIA basically spent the last 50 years of the 20th century propping up fascist dictatorships in the 3rd world specifically to combat the rise of communism? cambodia, chile, nicaragua, argentina, iran, iraq, syria, afghanistan, egypt.


I think that counts only during Democratic administrations, not Republican ones.
   2070. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 24, 2014 at 07:04 PM (#4661707)
Looks like we won't have Alec Baldwin to kick around anymore - Baldwin Blames Everyone Else, Retires From Public Life.

I just read that Baldwin article from start to finish, and found it to be an honest and heartfelt reaction to much of what passes for media culture in our day and age. But there's no point in trying to summarize it for the benefit of those who already have him pigeonholed into whatever particular little corner they find it ideologically convenient to place him in, and whose favorite game in life seems to be "gotcha".
   2071. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 24, 2014 at 07:13 PM (#4661715)
I just read that Baldwin article from start to finish, and found it to be an honest and heartfelt reaction to much of what passes for media culture in our day and age.


Oh no doubt he has legitimate grievances, the msm media sucks, the msm insofar as it reports on entertainment really sucks, and paparazzi are absolute scum- but care to name anyone who has handled it as badly as Baldwin has over such an extended period of time?

   2072. zonk Posted: February 24, 2014 at 07:18 PM (#4661717)
No he certainly wasn't' their first or even second choice. But, if the aristocrat in question saw the choice as binary, Hitler or the Socialists; or Hitler or anarchy,

then yes they supported Hitler, especially after he agreed to reign in guys like Strasser and Rohm.


Ought to be repeated.

...and in fact, if you want to split up the "aristocracy" to separate out the industrialists and the old Prussian blue bloods - Hitler managed to bring them both into the fold in one fell swoop.... For the Army and the Prussians, he eliminated Rohm and his gaggle of thugs at the same time he satiated the industrialists and monied interests by eliminating the Strassers and bringing Goebbels to heel.

Maybe the aristocracy as a whole wasn't originally entranced with fascism - though, there were certainly exceptions (you don't get much more aristocratic than Goering, for example) - but they were early adopters once the Nazis got their foot in the door of power.

You can look across the Rhine to France and the Vichy regime -- Petain chief among plenty of others very much said quite explicitly that at least the fascists had dealt with the socialist rabble....
   2073. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 24, 2014 at 07:54 PM (#4661732)
When the order you are overthrowing itself rose to power by overthrowing the old aristocratic order, well, it's easy for a conservative to rationalize such radicalism. You are not overthrowing tradition, you are returning to tradition by overthrowing those who have usurped it.


That's what reactionary politics *is.*
   2074. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 24, 2014 at 07:56 PM (#4661734)
Oh no doubt he has legitimate grievances, the msm media sucks, the msm insofar as it reports on entertainment really sucks, and paparazzi are absolute scum- but care to name anyone who has handled it as badly as Baldwin has over such an extended period of time?


Gibson, Mel.
   2075. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 24, 2014 at 08:25 PM (#4661747)
I just read that Baldwin article from start to finish, and found it to be an honest and heartfelt reaction to much of what passes for media culture in our day and age. But there's no point in trying to summarize it for the benefit of those who already have him pigeonholed into whatever particular little corner they find it ideologically convenient to place him in, and whose favorite game in life seems to be "gotcha".

To each his own, but Baldwin's "honest and heartfelt" story strikes me as self-serving excuses for minimizing or justifying his own bad behavior. Baldwin blames a staggering number of people across the political spectrum and in & out of show business for his troubles. At what point does one conclude that it is NOT everyones else's fault? Not saying St. Nick is gullible . . . but I can't come up with a better word at the moment.
   2076. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 24, 2014 at 08:25 PM (#4661748)
Gibson, Mel.


When he's drunk (which granted is a large part of the time). Baldwin by all accounts acts this way sober.
   2077. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 24, 2014 at 09:06 PM (#4661761)
I just read that Baldwin article from start to finish, and found it to be an honest and heartfelt reaction to much of what passes for media culture in our day and age.

Oh no doubt he has legitimate grievances, the msm media sucks, the msm insofar as it reports on entertainment really sucks, and paparazzi are absolute scum- but care to name anyone who has handled it as badly as Baldwin has over such an extended period of time?


Sam's already mentioned the obvious Mel Gibson, but just to keep it within the realm of people Baldwin mentioned in his article, there's good old Shia LaBeouf.

But beyond the so's your mom reply, how would you react when people told one lie after another about you and your wife? How would you like to be labeled a "homophobe" on the basis of one offhanded reaction to some creep who'd shoved a camera into your face when you were getting into your car with your family? How would you like to be called a "racist" on the basis of a word that it was later proven you'd never said?

It never ceases to amaze me the way we (rightly) mock athletes and other celebrities whose every word seems to come from a committee of spinmeisters, but when a public figure reacts to a series of slanders and intrusions much in the way that most normal non-celebrities would, we try to make pariahs out of them.

Baldwin is the first to admit that he's brought much of this on himself by appearing in public as much as he's done up to now, but there are plenty of people who know what these paparazzi scum are like, and who also know that underneath it all, Baldwin consistently gives respect to people who deserve it. I can understand why his larger than life personality might not be everyone's cup of tea, not to mention his frequent political outspokenness, but the level of venom that gets directed at him seems to me to reflect much more on those people casting the stones than on Baldwin himself.
   2078. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: February 24, 2014 at 09:24 PM (#4661767)

A key committee in Alabama's House of Representatives has pushed through a bill requiring teachers and students at all of the state's public schools to spend 15 minutes every morning in Christian prayer, even though a majority of legislators present say they opposed the measure.
...
But that stand seems lukewarm next to the current House measure's planned compulsion of religion among captive pupils. The bill passed through the chamber's education policy committee late last week, according to the Montgomery Advertiser:

The bill, sponsored by Rep. Steve Hurst, R-Munford, would require teachers to spend no more than 15 minutes in the first class of each day to read, verbatim, opening prayers said before a meeting of the U.S. House of Representatives or the U.S. Senate.

Rep. Mary Sue McClurkin, R-Indian Springs, chairwoman of the committee, said she heard more votes in favor of the bill.

"It's what I heard as chairman," she said.

Only McClurkin and one other Republican on the panel actually voted "aye" on the bill. Two Republicans and one Democrat insist they said "no" to the bill in the voice vote; three legislators weren't even present for the vote. The House's clerk told the Advertiser that "the chairman of each committee has the discretion to decide the outcome of a voice vote."


Alabama ... governed by imaginary voices!
   2079. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: February 24, 2014 at 09:27 PM (#4661770)
More GOP minority outreach!


A U.S. Senate candidate is facing fierce criticism after saying ranchers should be free to shoot "wetbacks" on sight, using a derogatory term that the candidate describes as "normal" in his home state.

Texas Republican Chris Mapp, who is challenging Sen. John Cornyn (R-Texas) in the upcoming GOP primary, made the remarks during an interview with the Dallas Morning News' editorial board. The board noted Mapp's remarks in its February 16 endorsement of Cornyn.

"South Texas businessman Chris Mapp, 53, told this editorial board that ranchers should be allowed to shoot on sight anyone illegally crossing the border on to their land, referred to such people as 'wetbacks,' and called the president a 'socialist son of a #####,' the editorial reads.

Mapp later defended his remarks to the San Antonio Express-News, claiming use of the racial epithet is as "normal as breathing air in South Texas."


Link.
   2080. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 24, 2014 at 09:49 PM (#4661778)
Alabama ... governed by imaginary voices!


And that vote, real or imagined, took place maybe 2 miles from my house. Woohoo.
   2081. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 24, 2014 at 09:52 PM (#4661782)
app later defended his remarks to the San Antonio Express-News, claiming use of the racial epithet is as "normal as breathing air in South Texas."


As I've noted before, the preferred description of "wetback" by the crazed "libertarian" (a redundancy, I know) who set newsroom policy in Little Rock up until a couple of years ago was "colorful Americanism."
   2082. zonk Posted: February 24, 2014 at 09:59 PM (#4661785)
Mapp's polling around 3% with the rest of the "not Cornyn" gaggle, but that said -- it would be interesting to see another poll find out whether he continues to be a 4-way tie for last behind Stockman (who also trails big) and Cornyn.

I don't know what the Texas GOP requirements are to get your name on the ballot -- but here's where the GOP runs into trouble... if he continues to just double down on this, maybe toss in a little PC-bashing, media-bashing, etc for good measure -- do his numbers rise to the low double digits?

Cornyn's strolling to the nomination and then probably through the GE... but I wouldn't mind seeing another primary poll in a few weeks to see if Mapp keeps polling at the statistical noise level or if this gives him a bump.
   2083. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 24, 2014 at 10:05 PM (#4661789)
As I've noted before, the preferred description of "wetback" by the crazed "libertarian" (a redundancy, I know) who set newsroom policy in Little Rock up until a couple of years ago was "colorful Americanism."

That only works when you're applying those "colorful Americanisms" to your own people, and even then you have to wind up explaining yourself.
   2084. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 24, 2014 at 10:54 PM (#4661815)
How would you like to be labeled a "homophobe" on the basis of one offhanded reaction to some creep who'd shoved a camera into your face when you were getting into your car with your family?

Not sure why anyone would just accept Baldwin's version of disputed events, but in any event, the article includes multiple instances of homophobic slurs (the admitted "toxic little queen" & disputed \"##########\" plus some word that "sounds like faggot" which Baldwin says was something else that he doesn't remember). Sounds like Baldwin believes he deserves a pass on this because he's a good liberal, but the linked article indicates that he had problems with people across the political spectrum -- all their fault. Then there's the way he treated his daughter. Don't want to be too harsh on St. Nick, but I have some doubt that he'd be as forgiving of similar conduct by someone who doesn't share his political views.

   2085. Publius Publicola Posted: February 24, 2014 at 10:59 PM (#4661820)
Alabama ... governed by imaginary voices!


The bill is obviously unconstitutional and will not stand even the flimsiest challenge.

Still, meet the New South. Same as the Old South. They certainly keep the ACLU busy.
   2086. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 25, 2014 at 12:26 AM (#4661857)
How would you like to be labeled a "homophobe" on the basis of one offhanded reaction to some creep who'd shoved a camera into your face when you were getting into your car with your family?

Not sure why anyone would just accept Baldwin's version of disputed events,


Given the credibility and M.O. of most if not all of the people who've been accusing him, I see little more reason to believe theirs.

but in any event, the article includes multiple instances of homophobic slurs (the admitted "toxic little queen" & disputed "##########" plus some word that "sounds like faggot" which Baldwin says was something else that he doesn't remember).

Sounds like Baldwin believes he deserves a pass on this because he's a good liberal, but the linked article indicates that he had problems with people across the political spectrum -- all their fault. Then there's the way he treated his daughter.

For which he's also apologized. And BTW here was his daughter's take on that incident 5 years later:

In 2007 the world was understandably shocked when a voicemail message from Alec Baldwin to his 11-year-old daughter, Ireland, was released to the public.

Now Ireland has spoken for the first time about the infamous phone call, in which Alec called her "a rude, thoughtless, little pig." Now 16, Ireland tells Page Six Magazine that her father often speaks like that "because he's frustrated."

While most people were appalled that a father would speak to his daughter in such a manner, Ireland claims it didn't really faze her.

"The only problem with that voice mail was that people made it out to be a way bigger deal than it was," she tells the magazine. "He's said stuff like that before just because he's frustrated."

The teenager, who is the spitting image of her mother, Kim Basinger, explained that she just brushed off the angry message. "For me it was like, ‘OK, whatever.’ I called him back I was like, ‘Sorry Dad, I didn’t have my phone.’ That was it.”


And out of that we got coverage that made it seem as if he'd dangled his daughter by her feet out of a third floor window.

Don't want to be too harsh on St. Nick, but I have some doubt that he'd be as forgiving of similar conduct by someone who doesn't share his political views.

Believe it or not, I probably know less about Alec Baldwin's political views than you do. I know he's a liberal, but that's about it. I've seen all of two of his movies: Glengarry Glen Ross and another whose name I can't remember. The only TV show I've ever seen him on has been his role as guest co-host on TCM's series "The Essentials", where he shows maximum respect for his host and the films (not his) that they're introducing.

The reason I defend Baldwin is because AFAICT his worst enemies seem to be generally a bunch of self-styled enforcers of political correctness, mostly on the Left, and of course the scum of the Earth known as paparazzi and other celebrity-stalking journalists. I also instinctively defend people who speak in their own voice, even if sometimes they make fools of themselves. This has absolutely nothing to do with his political views.

And BTW does this sound like the voice of a flaming liberal? Sounds like you or snapper to me:

I had dreams of running for office at some point in the next five years. In the pyramid of decision-making in New York City politics, rich people come first, unions second, and rank-and-file New Yorkers come dead last. I wanted to change that. I wanted to find a way to lower the cost of the city government and thus reduce New York’s shameful tax burden. I would have decentralized the schools....
   2087. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 25, 2014 at 01:42 AM (#4661880)
And BTW does this sound like the voice of a flaming liberal? Sounds like you or snapper to me . . .

Now you've gone too far! Perhaps the best evidence of Baldwin's behavior is today's item from the NY Post's Page Six - a source often deemed authoritative by Primates of all stripes, including the Founding Primate:
NYPD cops won’t shed any tears if Alec Baldwin makes good on his wish to move to a gated community in Los Angeles, police sources told The Post on Monday. “I say: Don’t let the door hit you on the way out of the city,” said one source, who knows Baldwin from the actor’s Greenwich Village neighborhood. “I don’t like the guy. It’s a pain in the ass to deal with him every time he blows his top at the press and we’re called in to clean up the mess.” . . . Another police source familiar with the actor’s cases said Baldwin “has a weird, almost-paranoid personality.”

Who can argue with Page Six?


   2088. steagles Posted: February 25, 2014 at 01:57 AM (#4661883)
Who can argue with Page Six?
hmmm.
   2089. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: February 25, 2014 at 02:04 AM (#4661885)
Believe it or not, I probably know less about Alec Baldwin's political views than you do. I know he's a liberal, but that's about it. I've seen all of two of his movies: Glengarry Glen Ross and another whose name I can't remember. The only TV show I've ever seen him on has been his role as guest co-host on TCM's series "The Essentials", where he shows maximum respect for his host and the films (not his) that they're introducing.
How have you, of all people, not seen The Hunt for Red October? It's right up there with Das Boot and Run Silent, Run Deep as the greatest submarine movie of all time. Between that and seven seasons of 30 Rock awesomeness, he gets an actor pass from me.
   2090. SteveF Posted: February 25, 2014 at 06:53 AM (#4661904)
Sam's already mentioned the obvious Mel Gibson, but just to keep it within the realm of people Baldwin mentioned in his article, there's good old Shia LaBeouf.

What LaBeouf did was wrong of course, but I have to admit he has kept me entertained in the aftermath. He's also not entirely wrong about the nature of copyright law. I don't pretend to know what the most economically beneficial time length is, but life + 70 ain't it.
   2091. Lassus Posted: February 25, 2014 at 07:44 AM (#4661911)
I just read that Baldwin article from start to finish, and found it to be an honest and heartfelt reaction to much of what passes for media culture in our day and age. But there's no point in trying to summarize it for the benefit of those who already have him pigeonholed into whatever particular little corner they find it ideologically convenient to place him in, and whose favorite game in life seems to be "gotcha".

Baldwin's an ass. That's not pigeonholing him, that's describing him.
   2092. bobm Posted: February 25, 2014 at 08:36 AM (#4661922)
How have you, of all people, not seen The Hunt for Red October? It's right up there with Das Boot and Run Silent, Run Deepas the greatest submarine movie of all time. 

Great all-around movie.
   2093. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 25, 2014 at 08:59 AM (#4661925)
Perhaps the best evidence of Baldwin's behavior is today's item from the NY Post's Page Six - a source often deemed authoritative by Primates of all stripes,including the Founding Primate:

Who can argue with Page Six?


Since I'm one of those "the glass is half full" kind of guys, I suppose I should consider it a sign of progress that you didn't cite the NY Post's editorial page instead of its gossip column.

--------------------------------------------------------------

How have you, of all people, not seen The Hunt for Red October? It's right up there with Das Boot and Run Silent, Run Deep as the greatest submarine movie of all time. Between that and seven seasons of 30 Rock awesomeness, he gets an actor pass from me.

By this time I've seen several thousand movies, but the only one I can remember that takes place even in part in a submarine is On the Beach. It's just not a genre I particularly go for. OTOH I'm sure I'd like 30 Rock, and I just put three episodes in my Netflix queue.
   2094. GregD Posted: February 25, 2014 at 09:50 AM (#4661943)
30 Rock is both funny and really smart, full of self-mockery. Some duds in there but some great stuff. Baldwin seems in on the nonstop joke about his pompousness and seems to have a good time with it.

I am sure I agree with Baldwin on many--not all!--matters of public policy but I can't think of anyone less suited to be mayor of New York City. The whole point of the job is you have to take your licks from the most-absurd press corps in the country day after day and not let em see you sweat....and the single most consistent thing about Alec Baldwin is that his skin is a micrometer deep
   2095. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 25, 2014 at 10:04 AM (#4661951)
30 Rock is both funny and really smart, full of self-mockery


For some reason the couple episodes I watched I found utterly unfunny. I tend to prefer someone somewhere to be competent and somewhat likeable (Never was a Seinfeld fan either). Oh well, there is more than enough other media to keep me happy.
   2096. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 25, 2014 at 10:17 AM (#4661961)
I am sure I agree with Baldwin on many--not all!--matters of public policy but I can't think of anyone less suited to be mayor of New York City. The whole point of the job is you have to take your licks from the most-absurd press corps in the country day after day and not let em see you sweat....and the single most consistent thing about Alec Baldwin is that his skin is a micrometer deep.

I could no more imagine Alec Baldwin as mayor of New York City than Norman Mailer or William F. Buckley, Jr., or Chris Christie as president. I'd put all those ambitions in the category of Fantasy Baseball.
   2097. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 25, 2014 at 10:26 AM (#4661970)
I could no more imagine Alec Baldwin as mayor of New York City than Norman Mailer or William F. Buckley, Jr., or Chris Christie as president.


Jessie Ventura and Ahnold. Just saying.
   2098. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 25, 2014 at 10:45 AM (#4661987)
Jessie Ventura and Ahnold. Just saying.

Ventura won in a flukish three way race. Ahnold capitalized on a revulsion against Gray Davis in a recall election. Mailer's 5% and Buckley's 13% were far more typical of the fate awaiting celebrity candidates in New York City. And Christie has now got anger baggage bigger than his beach ball sized gut.
   2099. Random Transaction Generator Posted: February 25, 2014 at 10:55 AM (#4661995)
30 Rock is both funny and really smart, full of self-mockery. Some duds in there but some great stuff. Baldwin seems in on the nonstop joke about his pompousness and seems to have a good time with it.


The first few episodes are a bit rough, as they hadn't quite nailed down the interaction between the Fey/Baldwin characters.
Once they got that in line, and Baldwin's character slides into his ultra-conservative persona, it's golden from then on.

The episode where he does the voices of Tracy's father/mother/uncle during a therapy session is amazing.
   2100. The Good Face Posted: February 25, 2014 at 10:55 AM (#4661996)
When the order you are overthrowing itself rose to power by overthrowing the old aristocratic order, well, it's easy for a conservative to rationalize such radicalism. You are not overthrowing tradition, you are returning to tradition by overthrowing those who have usurped it.


That's what reactionary politics *is.*


Could not be more wrong. You can't save the village by destroying it. Reactionary politics eschew the tactics and methods of the left; if you're leading a revolution, you are almost certainly not a reactionary, regardless of your policy preferences. Modern reaction (neoreaction I guess, although I think it's kind of a silly term) is much more of an analytical movement than a political one, but there is general agreement that political violence and revolution have no place in neoreactionary thought.
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