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Saturday, February 01, 2014

OTP - Feb 2014: Politics remains a hurdle for immigration reform

Yet Obama might find his best-chance legislative compromise in an issue that lately has seemed to be on life support: an overhaul of the nation’s immigration laws.

Curiously, immigration was an issue the president barely mentioned in this year’s speech. Maybe he does not want to interfere with those Republicans who actually agree with him on the need to bring the nation’s millions of undocumented workers out of the shadows.

Bitter Mouse Posted: February 01, 2014 at 04:01 PM | 3524 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   2201. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 25, 2014 at 04:29 PM (#4662324)
but the recent discovery about the Black Death in Justinian times suggests a possible wave pattern to Black Deaths in Europe.


I think Historians have always thought Justinian Plague was likely the black death, its just that it was confirmed recently.

Another thing I've read is that most historians/medical folks no longer think the disease referred to in the Bible as Leprosy is the same disease (Hansens Disease) that we call Leprosy today...

   2202. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 25, 2014 at 04:35 PM (#4662330)
Oddly enough the worry with something like Ebola is god forbid it becomes LESS virulent.


Evolution is all about changes which result in more propagation, not in becoming more powerful. For diseases that means less likely to wipe out its host before spreading. So yeah less deadly can be worse. And yes I am agreeing with you.

I still want to know what government is currently close to what you want. No, I won't tell you to move there.


I believe he mentioned Singapore as being relatively ideal a while back, but he can correct me if he likes.
   2203. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 25, 2014 at 04:35 PM (#4662333)
I think Historians have always thought Justinian Plague was likely the black death, its just that it was confirmed recently.


Fair.

Another thing I've read is that most historians/medical folks no longer think the disease referred to in the Bible as Leprosy is the same disease (Hansens Disease) that we call Leprosy today..


Huh. That's interesting.
   2204. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 25, 2014 at 04:39 PM (#4662335)
That's why leftist singularities are so terrifying; they eat their own.


Doesn't that make them less scary?

Is Comrade Zenbitz TRULY a loyal member of the Innermost Party's Council of 16? Or does he harbor deviationist inclinations? He DID kind of look at me funny in the hallway yesterday


This stuff seems more dependent on the specific personality of the political leadership than on the ideology being espoused, not all Communists Countries did this, and in some that did, when the driving force died (Stalin, Mao) the practice ended or was reigned in.

You get this type of purging of the power structure in authoritarian/totalitarian systems when the upper boss is a paranoid SOB- it's not inherent in leftism, it's inherent in the power system, Fascist systems also had this kind of behavior (Of course the Nazis killed so many Jews and Russians people tend not to notice that being a member of the party or associated organizations was not too safe either)
   2205. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 25, 2014 at 04:41 PM (#4662336)
Gov. Jan Brewer expected to veto the gay discrimination bill in Arizona.

200 people are on the Kansas capitol steps to protest a similar bill (even though the bill is now dead).

Missouri is the latest state to introduced such a bill. Gov. Jay Nixon (D) recently angered those on the far right by extending state tax benefits to gay couples legally married in other states that move to Missouri, so its unlikely to become law unless they override his veto.
   2206. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 25, 2014 at 04:52 PM (#4662345)
We don't have a lot of evidence for measles or anything else, to my knowledge,


It's hard to know how disease organisms might have been different in the past and thus have given rise to different symptoms, but Galen's description of the Antonine plague doesn't sound very much like bubonic plague. Whereas the Justinian plague was suspected to be bubonic for quite some time before the recent studies.

And in case anybody wants to freak out, anti-biotic-resistant plague was documented in Madagascar in 1995.
   2207. The Good Face Posted: February 25, 2014 at 04:56 PM (#4662348)
Doesn't that make them less scary?


No, because there is no safety to be found. If your civilization is engaging in ethnic cleansing, it sucks to be the cleansee, but if you're with the cleansors, and your side wins, you're in the clear. Ditto for killing campaigns that revolve around language, national origin, often even religion. But in a leftist singularity, even being an enthusiastic party member won't help you.

This stuff seems more dependent on the specific personality of the political leadership than on the ideology being espoused, not all Communists Countries did this, and in some that did, when the driving force died (Stalin, Mao) the practice ended or was reigned in.


Well yes, the period AFTER a leftist singularity is usually a bit more... restrained. Having a mountain of skulls on hand is a hell of a hangover. Not much consolation if your head is part of the mountain of skulls though.

You get this type of purging of the power structure in authoritarian/totalitarian systems when the upper boss is a paranoid SOB- it's not inherent in leftism, it's inherent in the power system, Fascist systems also had this kind of behavior


The kind of guy who gets to be the boss in such a system is almost always a paranoid SOB. How do you think he became the boss? That's why I'm in favor of formalizing power structures, to do everything possible to crystalize power and secure it. Look at Stalin; he had as much political power as any Tsar. But he WAS NOT the Tsar, he was the Secretary General (or whatever) of the Communist party. Which basically means he was a clerk. His power was unassailable, but his POSITION was not. And so he was riding a tiger; he had to go to extreme lengths to protect his power because it wasn't formalized. This is in part why dictators are often such complete bastards. But if instead our hypothetical Stalin had been born into the job as Tsar Josef I, he'd have likely felt more secure in his power and might not have been quite so much of a paranoid SOB.
   2208. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 25, 2014 at 05:13 PM (#4662367)
And so he was riding a tiger; he had to go to extreme lengths to protect his power because it wasn't formalized. This is in part why dictators are often such complete bastards. But if instead our hypothetical Stalin had been born into the job as Tsar Josef I, he'd have likely felt more secure in his power and might not have been quite so much of a paranoid SOB.


Your willful blindness to the instability of hereditary monarchy is astounding. It's not like wars of secession were unheard of in those systems.
   2209. zenbitz Posted: February 25, 2014 at 05:21 PM (#4662375)
Was the Roman Empire a hereditary monarchy? Is there really a difference between a true hereditary monarchy and one in which the sovereign or dictator hand-picks his (or her) successor?

And it's clear that TGF is actually English Bob from The Unforgiven.
   2210. OCF Posted: February 25, 2014 at 05:33 PM (#4662382)
One of the benefits of living in an interconnected world is there are no longer diseases that have been incubating (so to speak) in one population for generations, just waiting to break out of that population and afflict a "virgin" population.

Now the worries are diseases that "jump" from one species to another, mutations and bio-war.


I'm pretty sure that most of the really nasty epidemic human diseases - smallpox, measles, typhoid, typhus, influenza, and so on - were originally species jumpers, and burst forth into human populations after the development of agriculture. In particular, most of them were diseases of large domesticated animals, especially cattle and swine. Plague is carried by rats. Rats aren't domesticated, but are a human follow-along species that takes advantage of human agricultural and urban food sources.

The American natives (and also the Pacific Islanders) were extremely vulnerable because of their relative lack of domestic animals. In particular they had very few diseases to "fight back" with. Africans, on the other hand, did have both cattle and a massive supply of herd wildlife in the neighborhood; and they were already part of the same pool of diseases that Europe and Asia had, with a few tropical varieties of their own.

Of course, those epidemic diseases weren't exactly benign in Eurasia. It's quite a recent development that large cities are reasonably stable and are not being depopulated by disease every generation or so.
   2211. The Good Face Posted: February 25, 2014 at 05:34 PM (#4662383)
Was the Roman Empire a hereditary monarchy? Is there really a difference between a true hereditary monarchy and one in which the sovereign or dictator hand-picks his (or her) successor?


There's more than one way to do a monarchy. What's important is that the power and underlying system is formalized. Dictators are especially vulnerable because dictatorships are unstable; what replaces them? Another dictator? A king? A democracy? Who knows! Let's kill his ass and find out!

But a strong monarchy? Why bother killing the king? He's only going to be replaced with... another king.

Mind you, I'm not 100% opposed to all forms of democracy. In certain circumstances, I think it can function reasonably well. I AM opposed to the sort of mass participatory democracy currently practiced in the US.

And it's clear that TGF is actually English Bob from The Unforgiven.


The man made some cogent points.
   2212. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 25, 2014 at 05:43 PM (#4662389)
What's important is that the power and underlying system is formalized


Power and the underlying system of governance in the constitutional west is formalized.
   2213. Publius Publicola Posted: February 25, 2014 at 05:44 PM (#4662391)
Infectious pathogens are indifferent to the fate of their host. Some highly virulent ones attenuate iverson time, like influenza. Others , like HIV, delay the mortality of their host until transmission occurs.
   2214. Greg K Posted: February 25, 2014 at 05:45 PM (#4662392)
But a strong monarchy? Why bother killing the king? He's only going to be replaced with... another king.

As John Eliot famously said: "I reverence the order. I honour not the man".

Of course
A) In that specific instance he was talking about a bishop, not a King...though he did express very similar sentiments about kings
B) After a couple more years of having a King they didn't like, men of Eliot's ilk cut his head off and stumbled around a while trying to figure what to replace a King with.
   2215. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: February 25, 2014 at 05:47 PM (#4662394)
But a strong monarchy? Why bother killing the king? He's only going to be replaced with... another king.


Likely the guy who kills the first one, supporting his action with a claim to the throne that's at least as legitimate as his predecessor's. Coincidence?
   2216. Greg K Posted: February 25, 2014 at 05:48 PM (#4662396)
Speaking of infectious diseases, an interesting looking computer game came up on my Steam ad-list yesterday.
Plague Inc. Evolved
You essentially play a disease trying to destroy humanity. Each country tries to develop technology and pass various laws to save their citizens, which you combat...somehow. I'm not entirely clear on how the gameplay works, but I think I'll get it if it ever goes on sale.
   2217. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 25, 2014 at 05:58 PM (#4662406)
Mind you, I'm not 100% opposed to all forms of democracy. In certain circumstances, I think it can function reasonably well. I AM opposed to the sort of mass participatory democracy currently practiced in the US.


List the top ten participatory democracies. List the top ten strong monarchies. I know which I would rather live in. If you are given only the information Country X is either Democracy or not, any sane person will chose the Democracy. Your view is highly idiosyncratic and I suspect you have never lived anywhere but in a participatory democracy. Which I suppose makes it easy for you, but puts you in the same hypocritical space as those who live in lily white suburbs and claim to value diversity.
   2218. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 25, 2014 at 06:04 PM (#4662413)

But a strong monarchy? Why bother killing the king?


Because a) the king has pissed off your family and/or b) the guy who wants to be king has promised you a bunch of goodies if you help him seize power.

One way around that is to instantly knock off all possible rival claimants to the throne once you gain power (the Ottoman Turks generally did this). The downside of that is that you guarantee a civil war if some of your relatives get away.
   2219. The Good Face Posted: February 25, 2014 at 06:11 PM (#4662419)
Power and the underlying system of governance in the constitutional west is formalized.


Oh you're so cute. Like a 200 A.D. Roman who believes in the power of the Senate to appoint an emperor.
   2220. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 25, 2014 at 06:20 PM (#4662426)
Because a) the king has pissed off your family and/or b) the guy who wants to be king has promised you a bunch of goodies if you help him seize power.


This is where we are told that a monarchy that is riven by secessionist violence isn't "strong." CF that bit earlier about strong cultures that was never really pinned down to anything other than "they win wars" if you like. The idea that order is more organized or sustained in a monarchical system rather than a constitutional system is batshit crazy. In point of fact, the reason the west in particular, and humanity in general, has drifted *away* from monarchy *towards* constitutional republics of varying stripes is because the power, authority and organization of the constitutional system is *more formalized."

In monarchies, the power/authority rests with the King. How do you get power? Become king. How do you become king? Kill the current guy and throw your specious genealogy on the table to cover up his. If it works, hand it down to your favorite son and hope he's not an idiot. If it doesn't, die in the civil wars.

In constitutional republics, the power/authority rests in the Constitution. How do you get power? Follow the formalized process written down in the Constitution. How do you change the Constitutional order? Follow the formalized process written down in the Constitution.

A guy arguing for "formalized power" while supporting monarchy over constitutional republics is just confused beyond all measure.
   2221. spike Posted: February 25, 2014 at 06:26 PM (#4662431)
I see where some of the State Senators in Arizona are asking Gov. Brewer to veto the bill they voted for. Craven yellow bastards can't even own their actions. I hope she signs it honestly, so we can get the damn thing in front of a judge and that those who voted for it can be held accountable (or not) during an election for doing so.
   2222. The Good Face Posted: February 25, 2014 at 06:38 PM (#4662436)
In constitutional republics, the power/authority rests in the Constitution. How do you get power? Follow the formalized process written down in the Constitution. How do you change the Constitutional order? Follow the formalized process written down in the Constitution.


You're confusing process for power. Immense amounts of power currently lie in the countless federal and state bureaucracies (not accounted for in the Constitution assuming you care about that sort of thing). And how that power is partitioned, allocated and used is ANYTHING but formalized. It's even worse than a monarchy in that the traditional recourse of a wronged subject, an appeal to the king, isn't even available.

Obviously bureaucracies are not unique to democracies, but at least a monarch could, if he was so inclined, clean house on them. In a democracy, the bureaucracy is not accountable to anybody.
   2223. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 25, 2014 at 06:49 PM (#4662441)
The biggest bureaucracy, of course, is the Church, which most monarchs dare not touch.
   2224. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: February 25, 2014 at 06:55 PM (#4662448)
I hope she signs it honestly, so we can get the damn thing in front of a judge and that those who voted for it can be held accountable (or not) during an election for doing so.
As an Arizonan, I also hope Brewer signs it - because that may finally bring down the circus tent.
   2225. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 25, 2014 at 07:02 PM (#4662454)
It matters because ideological murders have no end point. If you're killing based on race/ethnicity/religious faith, you kill until the undesired people are eliminated. Kill the Tutsis! Rawr, smash! Ok, anybody see any Tutsis still breathing? No? Ok, let's get some drinks.

Yes, what's a little genocide among drinking buddies? It's when they start killing off the stockbrokers that we really have to start channeling our inner Niemöllers!
   2226. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 25, 2014 at 07:04 PM (#4662458)
As an Arizonan, I also hope Brewer signs it - because that may finally bring down the circus tent.

I kind of agree, but I think the Governess is finally seeing the light about some of her erstwhile allies, and may be looking for a way to bail.
   2227. Publius Publicola Posted: February 25, 2014 at 07:06 PM (#4662460)
Appeals to the King? How about appeals to the courts? Not perfect but at least you won't be dealing with a diseased megalomaniac.
   2228. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 25, 2014 at 07:14 PM (#4662464)
Immense amounts of power currently lie in the countless federal and state bureaucracies (not accounted for in the Constitution assuming you care about that sort of thing). And how that power is partitioned, allocated and used is ANYTHING but formalized.
Of course it's formalized. It's just dispersed throughout the system rather than in the hands of one or two people.

It's even worse than a monarchy in that the traditional recourse of a wronged subject, an appeal to the king, isn't even available.
On the other hand, there was never a recourse from the angry whims of a king, either.
   2229. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 25, 2014 at 07:23 PM (#4662477)
You're confusing process for power


No, I'm simply assuming that when you wrote "formalized" you mean "formalized." Granted, this may be a mistake. But the grand sweep of history away from hereditary monarchies toward constitutional republics is one of formalizing authority, and yoking power to that formalized authority, rather than leaving the power in the informal, often rather arbitrary decisions of a single man. In a monarchy, the law is "whatever the King says today." It is arbitrary to everyone outside of the King. In constitutional republics, the law is "what is written down in the book of law." In large scale implementations that may become obtuse and difficult to navigate without professional legal counsel, but at least it's not "nah, Joffrey decided to cut his head off instead."
   2230. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: February 25, 2014 at 07:38 PM (#4662485)
The problem with monarchy was that most of the time you were going to get a corrupt government. Now we have republican democracy, which guarantees that you're always going to have a corrupt government. This is an improvement because there's comfort in knowing what you're getting. People don't like uncertainty.
   2231. dr. scott Posted: February 25, 2014 at 07:42 PM (#4662489)
Speaking of infectious diseases, an interesting looking computer game came up on my Steam ad-list yesterday.
Plague Inc. Evolved
You essentially play a disease trying to destroy humanity. Each country tries to develop technology and pass various laws to save their citizens, which you combat...somehow. I'm not entirely clear on how the gameplay works, but I think I'll get it if it ever goes on sale.


Great game. Got it on my ipad for $2-3 a while back. have not played in a while, but had a lot of fun... really hard to kill greenland in the advanced levels.
   2232. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 25, 2014 at 08:28 PM (#4662503)
Obviously bureaucracies are not unique to democracies, but at least a monarch could, if he was so inclined, clean house on them. In a democracy, the bureaucracy is not accountable to anybody.


No only don't you know how monarchies work, you also clearly don't know how democracy works either.

Have you ever lived in a monarchy?
   2233. Greg K Posted: February 25, 2014 at 08:37 PM (#4662506)
Obviously bureaucracies are not unique to democracies, but at least a monarch could, if he was so inclined, clean house on them. In a democracy, the bureaucracy is not accountable to anybody.

I suppose in theory the old "appeal to the King" thing is nice. But ask the people gunned down in Russia's Bloody Sunday in 1905 how their appeal to the monarch went. Unless you're dealing with a very small and very unsophisticated state, a monarch's ability to exercise that kind of control over the bureaucracy was always far more theoretical than practical.
   2234. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: February 25, 2014 at 08:42 PM (#4662508)
I suppose in theory the old "appeal to the King" thing is nice.


They also cure scrofula!
   2235. GregD Posted: February 25, 2014 at 10:17 PM (#4662547)
GregK is of course right that kings famously were stymied by bureaucracies. The idea of an absolute monarch was 1) an anomalous vision of monarchy in a particular moment and 2) an idea more than a practice. If you look at any early modern king, you see that almost all of his actions are aiming to play potential rivals off against each other.

More broadly it's very clearly established that bureaucracies expand in monarchies and are more slowly constructed in democratic societies, in part presumably because democratically elected legislators are more willing to send power down the line to democratically elected local officials, while the whole point of a monarch is to create institutions that start over time to eat away at local power and local elites.
   2236. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 25, 2014 at 11:20 PM (#4662572)
The idea of an absolute monarch was 1) an anomalous vision of monarchy in a particular moment and 2) an idea more than a practice. If you look at any early modern king, you see that almost all of his actions are aiming to play potential rivals off against each other.


TGF's idea of a powerful monarch is actually more of the princely fiefdom model, but he projects it forward as if were applicable to kingly states.
   2237. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 26, 2014 at 01:31 AM (#4662625)
TGF, now played by Bill Kristol.
   2238. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 26, 2014 at 02:11 AM (#4662635)
Might be some issues here (or not) - Clinton Library's Secret Files:
A trove of Clinton White House records long processed for release remains hidden from public view at the Clinton Presidential Library in Little Rock — even though the legal basis initially used to withhold them expired more than a year ago. The papers contain confidential advice given to or sought by President Bill Clinton, including communications with then-first lady Hillary Clinton, and records about people considered for appointments to federal office.
. . .
Under the Presidential Records Act, such records can be withheld for up to 12 years after a president leaves office. However, at the 12-year mark, those broad restrictions fall away and the once-secret presidential papers are generally subject to disclosure. For the Clinton files, that milestone came and went in January 2013.

The long-sealed records pose a delicate series of choices for the Clintons, and even President Barack Obama. They could allow disclosure of the papers, fueling new stories about old controversies like Whitewater and pardons granted as the 42nd president left office in 2001. Or they could fight to keep some or all of the files secret, likely triggering a court battle and stoking concerns that the former president and his wife are unduly secretive.

More to come, apparently.


   2239. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: February 26, 2014 at 02:26 AM (#4662639)
More to come, apparently.


Probably. But this seems like one of those things where a horde of reporters are going to have to dig through mountains of papers for a long time to see if there's anything interesting there, so even if there's no court fight, it'll be a little while before anything juicy surfaces.
   2240. robinred Posted: February 26, 2014 at 04:30 AM (#4662641)
People misunderstanding (and misspelling) fascism ITT.



Pretty sure, GF, that that was a play on the misspelling, as in Facists=Good Face partisans, rather than an actual commentary on any stance you've taken

Correct. I know what fascism is, but I did have to look up "ITT."
   2241. BrianBrianson Posted: February 26, 2014 at 05:55 AM (#4662642)
Why was small pox so lethal in the Americas? It took out up to 90% of some populations


This really undershoots what happened in the Americas (though a few other diseases were important too). The overall depopulation due to disease was probably closer to 95-99%. In a lot of places it was essentially 100% (though of course there were battles/massacres/whatnot, but these things were essentially unimportant across the rest of the world where they were happening in similar fashions). This number is a little hard to pin down, because We keep having to up the pre-Columbian number - the plagues were so complete the European settlers failed to notice there had been sprawling civilisations here for centuries.

The piddling ~30% drop from the Black Death was way easier to recover from. In a generation or so Europe/the Middle East were back on their feet. The total population of Indians didn't start going back up until ~1930.
   2242. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 26, 2014 at 08:10 AM (#4662652)
The long-sealed records pose a delicate series of choices for the Clintons, and even President Barack Obama. They could allow disclosure of the papers, fueling new stories about old controversies like Whitewater and pardons granted as the 42nd president left office in 2001. Or they could fight to keep some or all of the files secret, likely triggering a court battle and stoking concerns that the former president and his wife are unduly secretive.

Or it could be just another way for those evil Clintons to trick gullible Republicans like yourself into trying to replay the 1998 off-year elections. You may or may (not want to) remember how all that GOP obsessing over Whitewater and Pusssygate came out.

Earth to YC: Nobody cares about this kind of crap except hard core Tea Party maniacs and a few assorted scolds like Chris Matthews and Richard Cohen. Even you have to roll your eyes at these guys and their political boners.
   2243. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 26, 2014 at 08:56 AM (#4662655)
Might be some issues here (or not) - Clinton Library's Secret Files:


Maybe these guys will finally be held responsible for Vince Foster's murder.
   2244. Lassus Posted: February 26, 2014 at 09:06 AM (#4662656)
Might be some issues here (or not) - Clinton Library's Secret Files:
Slow polling news day, YC?

Maybe these guys will finally be held responsible for Vince Foster's murder.
Like whether it was Francis or Claire who tossed him in front of that subway train.
   2245. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: February 26, 2014 at 09:17 AM (#4662658)
The long-sealed records pose a delicate series of choices for the Clintons, and even President Barack Obama. They could allow disclosure of the papers, fueling new stories about old controversies like Whitewater and pardons granted as the 42nd president left office in 2001. Or they could fight to keep some or all of the files secret, likely triggering a court battle and stoking concerns that the former president and his wife are unduly secretive.


Can't wait to find out what Bush really knew about Saddam's WMD program.
   2246. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 26, 2014 at 09:27 AM (#4662661)
More news regarding the society in decline. If only we could target problems and then after a few years begin to make headway on them ...

New CDC data shows 43 percent drop in obesity rates among children 2 to 5

The report, published online Tuesday in the Journal of the American Medical Association, comes on the heels of data released last year by the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention that found that obesity rates among low-income preschoolers participating in federal nutrition programs declined broadly from 2008 to 2011 after rising for decades.

...

Researchers say that they don’t know the precise reasons behind the drop in obesity rates for children 2 to 5. But they noted that many child-care centers have started to improve nutrition and physical activity standards over the past few years. Ogden said that CDC data also show decreases in consumption of sugar-sweetened beverages among youth in recent years.
   2247. spike Posted: February 26, 2014 at 09:36 AM (#4662664)
Missouri GOP introduces latest "Keep The Gays Away" bill

Do these guys not read the papers or is there some suicide pact I am unaware of?
   2248. steagles Posted: February 26, 2014 at 09:59 AM (#4662671)
Obviously bureaucracies are not unique to democracies, but at least a monarch could, if he was so inclined, clean house on them. In a democracy, the bureaucracy is not accountable to anybody.
so, if i have this right, tgf hates democracies because he might have to wait in line at the DMV, but he likes monarchies because they can waive a finger and kill anyone they disagree with.

   2249. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 26, 2014 at 10:16 AM (#4662679)
Spike, the purpose of these bills is not to pass laws, but to generate right wing turnout during the midterms. It's the same play as the state referendums on gay marriage from 2002/4.
   2250. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 26, 2014 at 10:18 AM (#4662681)
so, if i have this right, tgf hates democracies because he might have to wait in line at the DMV, but he likes monarchies because they can waive a finger and kill anyone they disagree with.


TGF revers "order" above all else. He seems to have little concern if that "order" is imposed via murder and tyranny. He has generated a nostalgic false history of "order" during the "monarchical past" that props up his presumptions of what the proper societal order should be.
   2251. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 26, 2014 at 10:20 AM (#4662682)
More to come, apparently.


Seems like the smart play is to release the files now, to get it out of the way so its not an issue in 2016, right?

Spike, the purpose of these bills is not to pass laws, but to generate right wing turnout during the midterms. It's the same play as the state referendums on gay marriage from 2002/4.


It seems like if anything its drawing heat from the "against" pile, though. Kansas has got to be one of the least gay-friendly states and a good majority of people polled were against this bill - only 29% in favor. But I guess it might be good for individual legislators in Republican primaries in certain districts.
   2252. zonk Posted: February 26, 2014 at 10:25 AM (#4662685)
I'm sure Clapper is preparing a report so I hate to steal his thunder...

But, the latest "fix" proposal to the ACA by the GOP has been scored.

The project result is 1 million losing their current coverage -- about half of them would be moved ti SCHIP, Medicaid, etc - leaving 500,000 currently covered without coverage... Oh yeah -- and it grow the deficit by 74 billion over 10 years.

I think someone is misunderstanding the meaning of the world 'fix'.
   2253. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 26, 2014 at 10:27 AM (#4662687)
The project result is 1 million losing their current coverage -- about half of them would be moved ti SCHIP, Medicaid, etc - leaving 500,000 currently covered without coverage... Oh yeah -- and it grow the deficit by 74 billion over 10 years.


Gonna need a lot of tax cuts to make up that lost revenue.
   2254. spike Posted: February 26, 2014 at 10:34 AM (#4662689)
Spike, the purpose of these bills is not to pass laws, but to generate right wing turnout during the midterms.

If that's the strategy here, it's a dumb one - they turn out anyway. If anything I think this energizes and encourages greater left wing turnout. It's a loser for the right - anyone who supports these kinds of laws isn't going to vote for Obama anytime soon, and it forces high profile political figures and institutions to make public announcements on the topic - Delta disavowing the Georgia Bill, both AZ senators urging a Brewer veto. Just not the kind of publicity I think movement conservatives are looking for.
   2255. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 26, 2014 at 10:36 AM (#4662691)
It seems like if anything its drawing heat from the "against" pile, though. Kansas has got to be one of the least gay-friendly states and a good majority of people polled were against this bill - only 29% in favor. But I guess it might be good for individual legislators in Republican primaries in certain districts.


I think you're right on both counts. On the first, the Teaper base drastically underestimates the blowback these sorts of Jim Crow bills will generate for them outside of their bubbles. On the second, inside their bubbles, and the congressional districts that are drawn specifically to maintain those bubbles as voting blocs, the rabid nutters will either benefit or see no harm from these bills. They'll sponsor them, then go back to their districts full of mouthbreathers and drum up money and votes by telling horror stories of how the liberal machine denied a simple "protection of religious freedom" bill.
   2256. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 26, 2014 at 10:38 AM (#4662692)
Spike, I think you confuse "movement conservatives" with the Teaper tiger that is eating the GOP alive.
   2257. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 26, 2014 at 10:38 AM (#4662695)
TGF, now played by Bill Kristol.


You get a war, and you get a war, and you get a war!
   2258. Misirlou's been working for the drug squad Posted: February 26, 2014 at 10:38 AM (#4662696)
Delta disavowing the Georgia Bill,


American just came out officially against the AZ bill, as did Apple.

“There is genuine concern throughout the business community that this bill, if signed into law, would jeopardize all that has been accomplished so far,” Doug Parker, chief executive officer of Fort Worth, Texas-based American, wrote in a letter to Brewer yesterday. He said that it has the potential to reduce the desire of companies to relocate in the state and to repel convention business.
   2259. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: February 26, 2014 at 10:40 AM (#4662697)
Delta disavowing the Georgia Bill,


Do they speak for Jeff Francoeur?
   2260. The Good Face Posted: February 26, 2014 at 10:53 AM (#4662709)
TGF revers "order" above all else. He seems to have little concern if that "order" is imposed via murder and tyranny.


The alternative to order is anarchy, which is simply government by cannibal biker gangs. It's depressing (albeit predictable) to watch fat, pampered, spoiled children scoff at the very order that allows them to live out their comfortable lives.
   2261. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: February 26, 2014 at 10:56 AM (#4662712)
The NFL also more or less stated the Arizona could forget about getting another Super Bowl if they passed the law.
   2262. Mefisto Posted: February 26, 2014 at 11:01 AM (#4662716)
The piddling ~30% drop from the Black Death was way easier to recover from. In a generation or so Europe/the Middle East were back on their feet.


I agree with your general point, but it took England until 1500 to recover the population it had in 1340. Of course, they contributed to that themselves with the 100 Years War.
   2263. BDC Posted: February 26, 2014 at 11:07 AM (#4662721)
government by cannibal biker gangs

You use this phrase as if it were a bad thing.
   2264. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 26, 2014 at 11:11 AM (#4662726)
The alternative to order is anarchy, which is simply government by cannibal biker gangs.


Perhaps, but you don't support mere "order," but a very particular, patriarchal *kind of order.* You don't favor monarchy because it's the only thing standing between the world and anarchy. You favor monarchy because it benefits you and yours, at least in your particularly false-nostalgic dream of the system.
   2265. Greg K Posted: February 26, 2014 at 11:18 AM (#4662733)
The alternative to order is anarchy, which is simply government by cannibal biker gangs. It's depressing (albeit predictable) to watch fat, pampered, spoiled children scoff at the very order that allows them to live out their comfortable lives.

Surely there's something inbetween, considering the majority of nations around the world aren't governed by cannibal biker gangs, and as far as I can tell the kind of order you seem to be after has either never existed in history, or existed for for very brief periods at tremendous human cost. That leaves about 99% of human societies as not falling into either of these two categories.
   2266. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 26, 2014 at 11:22 AM (#4662737)
Surely there's something inbetween, considering the majority of nations around the world aren't governed by cannibal biker gangs


Now who's being naive?
   2267. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 26, 2014 at 11:23 AM (#4662738)
Another example of the Arizona mindset, or the bureaucratic mindset, our the Decline of Civilization, or maybe all three:

TSA agent questioned if license from nation’s capital was valid for flight

Ashley Brandt was all smiles last week when she went to board a flight home after a belated birthday trip to the Grand Canyon.

Then, standing in an airport security line in Phoenix, her jaw dropped.

According to Brandt, an agent with the Transportation Security Administration took a look at her D.C. license and began to shake her head. “I don’t know if we can accept these,” Brandt recalled the agent saying. “Do you have a U.S. passport?"...
   2268. BDC Posted: February 26, 2014 at 11:27 AM (#4662742)
Speaking of legislation and convention business, I have heard that Texas loses some convention business because it still has an anti-sodomy law on the books, though the law is a dead letter because of federal court decisions. This is ironic, if true, because I would predict that these pro-discrimination laws will get no traction here. (Some liberals are determined always to think the worst of Texas, for whatever reason :)

Some wingnut might introduce a bill allowing "religious" discrimination against gay couples, but between the metropolitan corporate culture and the streak of libertarianism in Texas, I can't imagine it getting serious attention. There is no general anti-discrimination law in Texas (as I probably said upthread somewhere) but the major cities, which have populations of many millions, all have them.

   2269. The Good Face Posted: February 26, 2014 at 11:28 AM (#4662743)
Perhaps, but you don't support mere "order," but a very particular, patriarchal *kind of order.*


Yes, I have my preferences for how society should be structured, as does everybody else here. I believe that my model of the world is better and more accurate than yours, and thus my preferences are superior. Time will tell. Unfortunately, we'll probably all be dead by the time the results are in.

That said, even order that I don't like is almost always superior to chaos and anarchy.

You favor monarchy because it benefits you and yours, at least in your particularly false-nostalgic dream of the system.


No, I favor monarchy because I think mass democracy is pretty crap; there's a difference. Would you rather be governed by good and wise men, or foolish and wicked ones? Feel free to use your personal preferred criteria for goodness and wisdom. Assuming you'd prefer the good and wise, how does giving every single person in society a vote as to who should govern take us towards good and wise leaders? A significant chunk of society is some combination of stupid, feckless and wicked; why should they have a role in apportioning political power?
   2270. Lassus Posted: February 26, 2014 at 11:29 AM (#4662745)
...and as far as I can tell the kind of order you seem to be after has either never existed in history, or existed for for very brief periods at tremendous human cost. That leaves about 99% of human societies as not falling into either of these two categories.

Yeah, I keep asking, but. There's apparently no there there.

Maybe he means Oakland.
   2271. BDC Posted: February 26, 2014 at 11:31 AM (#4662747)
A significant chunk of society is some combination of stupid, feckless and wicked; why should they have a role in apportioning political power?

But just as a matter of arithmetic, if 51% of the people are wise enough, the government usually will be, too. If 49% of monarchs are feckless and wicked, you're going to have a rough 49 years every century, on average. In fact, that would seem to be the track record of monarchy in general.
   2272. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 26, 2014 at 11:39 AM (#4662751)
(Some liberals are determined always to think the worst of Texas, for whatever reason :)

Good things about Texas:

1. Austin
2. Jerry Jeff Walker / Texas country music
3. "The Eyes of Texas are Upon You" and UT football
4. Wendy Davis
5. Texas accents
6. Lisa / baseball chick and a few other Primates
7. Larry McMurtry & his sole remaining Archer City book shop
8. Cheap gas prices (I think)
9. Texas barbecue
10. Cattle ranches

Anything else?



   2273. The Good Face Posted: February 26, 2014 at 11:40 AM (#4662752)
Surely there's something inbetween, considering the majority of nations around the world aren't governed by cannibal biker gangs, and as far as I can tell the kind of order you seem to be after has either never existed in history, or existed for for very brief periods at tremendous human cost. That leaves about 99% of human societies as not falling into either of these two categories.


The vast majority of nations have established and maintain order, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, that they enforce with, well, force. The fact that they don't do things the way I'd prefer doesn't mean they don't have order. It just means they could be doing things better.
   2274. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 26, 2014 at 11:45 AM (#4662756)
the plagues were so complete the European settlers failed to notice there had been sprawling civilisations here for centuries.


And in North America when European settlers did come across recognizable remains of prior civilizations such as at Cahokia and Mesa Verde they had a habit of inventing ancient (usually white) peoples who must have been the builders, a favorite idea was that various mounds must have been built by a lost tribe of Israelites (yes Virginia an actual living breathing modern religion originated from this crackpot idea) or from a long list mysterious people unrelated to any current Amerindians("Anasazi")- because obviously they're were never enough Indians to build a civilization, and even if there were, they weren't capable of doing it.

These ideas required massive amounts of not only ignorance but willful blindness from the European Settlers:

1: Europeans (Spanish Explorers) had actually observed some extant Mississippian Mound Building cultures before they died out, there was/should never have been any mystery about who built Cahokia and other mound complexes.
2: The ancestors of the modern day Pueblo peoples built so-called "Anasazi" complexes (before their populations collapsed of course).
3: Indians built cities and pyramids in Mexico/Central America/South America, why would you assume that North America Amerindians wee not capable?

Even more bizarre was the 19th Century "rediscovery" in Mexico that "hey there used to be an advanced civilization here that built things" Believe it or not, after the Spanish conquest of the New World, old native american cities and buildings were either:
covered up (physically) torn down and reused as building material, or ignored- and eventually forgotten in popular imagination, the Aztecs and Incas and Mayans were about as real to most [European] people as leprechauns and fairies.

Teotihuacan is only 30 miles from Mexico City, archaeologists from Mexico City only trekked out there and started work there late in the 19th Century, because it was getting expensive to fund expeditions to Egypt for all who wanted to go work on the Pyramids there. The fact that you could see possibly the world's most impressive Pyramid complex (outside of Egypt)- less than a days travel from Mexcio City came as something of a surprise to the EDUCATED classes.

Of course you had a great wave of archaeological exploration in the Western Hemisphere beginning at the end of the 19th Century- much of it driven by nonsense (Hey maybe Atlantis is somewhere around here, or I bet one of the "lost" tribes came here).

Some guys, like Hiram Bingham did do sensible things, like look back at old reports from 15th and 16th Century explorers- of course even he screwed up, he found Machu Picchu while looking for Vilcabamba- originally he thought he'd found Vilcabamba- when it was determined that he hadn't people regarded Machu Picchu as a "lost" or "secret" city... people hunting through Spanish Colonial records (within the past 10 years) have found 16th century Spanish references to it, including land ownership records...
   2275. Publius Publicola Posted: February 26, 2014 at 12:00 PM (#4662768)
Re:2267

That's strange. I have a DC license and have used it on several occasions. The TSA agent appears to be a newbie.
   2276. Swoboda is freedom Posted: February 26, 2014 at 12:00 PM (#4662769)
Good things about Texas:

Lyle Lovett
Buddy Holly
Dazed and Confused
My grandmother.
   2277. just plain joe Posted: February 26, 2014 at 12:07 PM (#4662778)
Anything else?


I would add more names to the list of Texas singer-songwriters; Willie Nelson, Guy Clark, Steve Earle, Lyle Lovett, Robert Earl Keen and James McMurtry come immediately to mind. James McMurtry is Larry's son and you can see some of Larry's influence in James' songwriting.
   2278. spike Posted: February 26, 2014 at 12:23 PM (#4662795)
I hear that Townes Van Zandt guy was worth a listen.
   2279. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 26, 2014 at 12:36 PM (#4662814)
That's strange. I have a DC license and have used it on several occasions. The TSA agent appears to be a newbie.


Apparently the TSA accepts several non-"state" driver's licenses- from US Territories like Guam, Puerto Rico etc., etc., but individual agents may not know that as the written guidelines only say, "Driver's Licenses or other state photo identity cards issued by Department of Motor Vehicles (or equivalent)"

So while the written guidelines do not specify that DC's (or Guam or Puerto Rico's) are acceptable, they do state that Candian Province issued cards are: "Canadian provincial driver's license or Indian and Northern Affairs Canada (INAC) card"
   2280. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 26, 2014 at 12:43 PM (#4662818)
Good things about Texas:


Not to rain on the snark parade, but the people. Sure there are some bad apples, but most Texans are fine people - once you get past their delusion Texas is the greatest state in the nation.

The vast majority of nations have established and maintain order, or a reasonable facsimile thereof, that they enforce with, well, force. The fact that they don't do things the way I'd prefer doesn't mean they don't have order. It just means they could be doing things better.


The historic trend is strongly towards democracy and away from monarchy. The best countries in the world (by pretty much any sensible metric) are democracies. But your preference is supposed to have equal weight with the actual facts, because freedom!

And of course in most historic monarchies you would not have that freedom, typically it is in democracies that you have the freedom to prefer monarchies. A fact most certainly overlooked by you (perhaps because you have never actually experienced life under a monarchy).
   2281. Publius Publicola Posted: February 26, 2014 at 12:49 PM (#4662822)
Aren't Roy Orbison and Janis Joplin from Texas? How did you miss them?
   2282. zonk Posted: February 26, 2014 at 01:15 PM (#4662841)
I'll take Carolina BBQ over Texas -- but will give the ribbon for Chili to Texas Chili....
   2283. Greg K Posted: February 26, 2014 at 01:19 PM (#4662845)
I've gotten to the point where the most important elements of chili for me are chickpeas and coconut milk.
   2284. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: February 26, 2014 at 01:20 PM (#4662848)
The alternative to order is anarchy, which is simply government by cannibal biker gangs. It's depressing (albeit predictable) to watch fat, pampered, spoiled children scoff at the very order that allows them to live out their comfortable lives.
The order brought to their lives by a strong monarchy. Oh, wait, wait a minute...
   2285. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: February 26, 2014 at 01:22 PM (#4662849)
a favorite idea was that various mounds must have been built by a lost tribe of Israelites (yes Virginia an actual living breathing modern religion originated from this crackpot idea)

Disagree. As religious stories go, it's one of the *most* plausible ones. Obviously astronomically unlikely, but at least it's something that on some level could have physically occurred. Which of these stories seem the most plausible?

- Israelites took boats, found the New World before others, and became ancestors of Native Americans
- Zeus turned himself into a swan and raped a woman
- God flooded the earth, but this dude took two of every animal into a giant boat he built
- There were only two humans that lived in a magical garden, but one ate an apple and they were booted.
- God demands people run around, cutting foreskins off competing ethnic groups
- Various anthropomorphic deities of various religions

(And so on). Compared to a lot of religious mythology, a bunch of Jews taking boats and reaching the Americas is downright practical.
   2286. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 26, 2014 at 01:26 PM (#4662855)
I've gotten to the point where the most important elements of chili for me are chickpeas and coconut milk.


It must be said:

Is that even legal?

(Not that I'm a chili purist. My batches tend to feature TVP; I occasionally eat meat, but I never cook with it.)
   2287. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 26, 2014 at 01:30 PM (#4662860)
American just came out officially against the AZ bill, as did Apple.


I'm somewhat reminded of when Phoenix hosted the sf WorldCon in ... '76? somewhere around there ... & the state's failure to pass the Equal Rights Amendment (IIRC) prompted Guest of Honor Harlan Ellison to hold court in a tent or RV or something, rather than make use of the con hotel & risk generating revenue for the government.

Or something like that.

Of course, Harlan was a self-obsessed loon even back in the '70s.


Edit: Turns out it was '78 (& it was an RV).
   2288. spike Posted: February 26, 2014 at 01:36 PM (#4662868)
I'm somewhat reminded of when Phoenix hosted the sf WorldCon in ... '76?

Goodness the folks in Arizona made it a point to sacrifice a Super Bowl on the altar of stopping the MLK holiday - I can't believe Ellison made it out alive.
   2289. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: February 26, 2014 at 01:39 PM (#4662870)
Given Harlan's rep in his prime, the bigger wonder is that Arizona survived. Sort of a shame that it did, considering much of what's happened since, though I had no complaints during my 2 1/2 years of grad school at ASU from '81-'84.
   2290. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: February 26, 2014 at 02:28 PM (#4662920)
The piddling ~30% drop from the Black Death was way easier to recover from. In a generation or so Europe/the Middle East were back on their feet.

This isn't really true, at least in Europe (not sure about the Middle East). The population decline actually started earlier in the 14th century, with a series of disastrous harvests and things of that nature. There's a theory that one reason the Black Death was so bad was that it hit a populace that was somewhat weakened by hunger and other privations. Also the plague kept reappearing for centuries -- there were major outbreaks every decade or so, and (for example) as late as 1665 there was an outbreak that killed maybe 100,000 Londoners. Expanding on what mefisto said above, the popualtion of Europe as a whole didn't recover to its level of ~1300 until sometime well into the early modern period. I'm most familiar with the demographics of Italy, where the decline continued until 1430 or a bit later, maybe 120-140 years after it began, and a few areas (notably Tuscany) didn't recover their late Medieval population until the 19th century. France's population kept partially rebounding then re-collapsing due to things like terrible harvests and the religious wars of the 16th century (which had a death toll in the millions and created massive economic disruptions) and didn't permanently surpass its early 14th century total until some time in the 18th century. Germany is similar, except that the 17th century was worse than the 16th there.

Obviously this is nothing like the 75% to 98% drop experienced in most of the New World, and (for example) the Italian population collapse didn't prevent from having the Renaissance. Still, the late Medieval demographic collapse was a major, long-term calamity with wide-reaching results.
   2291. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: February 26, 2014 at 02:30 PM (#4662924)
the plagues were so complete the European settlers failed to notice there had been sprawling civilisations here for centuries.

My favorite comment (and I can't remember where it came from) goes something like this: the Spanish coming up the Mississippi in the 16th century saw vast numbers of people and no buffalo. The French coming down the Mississippi in the 17th century saw vast herds of buffalo and very few people.
   2292. The Good Face Posted: February 26, 2014 at 03:00 PM (#4662968)
The historic trend is strongly towards democracy and away from monarchy.


Sample size fallacy. If Yuniesky Betancourt draws a walk, you wouldn't say the trend is for him to be a more selective hitter. We have a pretty good handle on something like 6000 years of human history; perhaps a couple centuries of that time has been dominated by democracies. You're looking at the present and assuming that the status quo is somehow naturally ordained; it's not. It's more likely to be a historical aberration, a distortion caused by the American Empire. And no empire lasts forever.

   2293. Lassus Posted: February 26, 2014 at 03:06 PM (#4662978)
Speaking of sample size, how again did you determine that the ruling members of the warm embrace of monarchy you crave aren't stupid, evil sociopaths?
   2294. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 26, 2014 at 03:12 PM (#4662985)
We have a pretty good handle on something like 6000 years of human history; perhaps a couple centuries of that time has been dominated by democracies.


And only 3-400 hundred were dominated by "monarchies." Unless you are conflating Imperial Rome, Alexandrian Greece, the god-kings of Egypt, dynastic China and early feudal European princely fiefdoms all under the banner of "monarchy," in which case your term is so laughably broad as to be meaningless.
   2295. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: February 26, 2014 at 03:13 PM (#4662990)
Speaking of sample size, how again did you determine that the ruling members of the warm embrace of monarchy you crave aren't stupid, evil sociopaths?


It's okay if they're stupid, evil sociopaths. They have god on their side.
   2296. Srul Itza Posted: February 26, 2014 at 03:13 PM (#4662993)
(And so on). Compared to a lot of religious mythology, a bunch of Jews taking boats and reaching the Americas is downright practical.


The Jews of antiquity were not well known as either seafarers or navigators. Hell, it took us 40 years just to cross the damn Sinai.

   2297. The Good Face Posted: February 26, 2014 at 03:28 PM (#4663010)
Speaking of sample size, how again did you determine that the ruling members of the warm embrace of monarchy you crave aren't stupid, evil sociopaths?


How do you determine that the ruling members of any society aren't stupid, evil sociopaths? Are the Dubya years such a distant memory to you? You think elections or revolutions have some sort of magical ability to filter out the sociopaths? Mussolini initially came to power via election. Ditto Hitler. Most successful revolutions quickly devolve into bloodbaths and/or tyranny as the most ruthless, sociopathic revolutionaries take charge and then with the purging and the reprisals and whatnot.

And only 3-400 hundred were dominated by "monarchies." Unless you are conflating Imperial Rome, Alexandrian Greece, the god-kings of Egypt, dynastic China and early feudal European princely fiefdoms all under the banner of "monarchy," in which case your term is so laughably broad as to be meaningless.


All monarchies. Monarchies don't need to be uniform. A Porsche 911 and a Plymouth Reliant are very different in many ways, but they're both still cars.
   2298. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 26, 2014 at 03:30 PM (#4663014)
All monarchies. Monarchies don't need to be uniform. A Porsche 911 and a Plymouth Reliant are very different in many ways, but they're both still cars.


and North Korea is a Monarchy
   2299. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 26, 2014 at 03:31 PM (#4663017)
The Jews of antiquity were not well known as either seafarers or navigators. Hell, it took us 40 years just to cross the damn Sinai.


With divine help too. Can you imagine how long it would have taken without it?
   2300. Morty Causa Posted: February 26, 2014 at 03:33 PM (#4663019)
About a day and a half.
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