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Saturday, February 01, 2014

OTP - Feb 2014: Politics remains a hurdle for immigration reform

Yet Obama might find his best-chance legislative compromise in an issue that lately has seemed to be on life support: an overhaul of the nation’s immigration laws.

Curiously, immigration was an issue the president barely mentioned in this year’s speech. Maybe he does not want to interfere with those Republicans who actually agree with him on the need to bring the nation’s millions of undocumented workers out of the shadows.

Bitter Mouse Posted: February 01, 2014 at 03:01 PM | 3524 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics

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   301. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 04, 2014 at 04:51 PM (#4651651)
Think of it this way... can you define, with perfect precision, where on the visible light spectrum red becomes orange? Of course you can't, it's impossible because orange and red are overlapping ranges. But the inability to make such a distinction doesn't invalidate the existence of color.


Stick with the earth's atmosphere, it's much better for your argument.

"Color" is literally in the eye of the beholder.
Whether radiation of one wavelength or another is seen as one color or another depends upon various factors:
1: the critter doing the seeing
2: the cones and rods the light falls upon
3: the brain processing the signals.

Light can come in almost any wavelength.
In order to see "red" light must be around a certain wavelength, and a certain level of intensity, and oh, you probably should be human- bees can see "red" too, but what we see as red they do not see as one unitary "red" how do we know that, because their eyes respond very differently to very slightly different wavelengths- wavelengths we see as all being red, we don't know exactly how they perceive it, do the perceive one red wavelength as red, another as mauve, another as orange, etc? no idea, but we do know they perceive them differently.

Other animals have different vision as well what to us is red and orange and yellow, may all look like one color to them.

Wavelength is a physical reality
Color is not, doesn't mean color isn't "real," but it's not "real" in these sense that wavelength is- an it's certainly not real in the sense that you GF claim race to be.
   302. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 04, 2014 at 04:52 PM (#4651652)
So, you are suggesting Nye should practice with snapper?


Snapper is quite a bit evolved from the average creationist debater, now the late great BBTFer Kehsokie...
   303. spike Posted: February 04, 2014 at 05:07 PM (#4651668)
I realize I should have put an emoticon there now - the others I might have mentioned are on ignore. All in fun, I promise.
   304. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 04, 2014 at 05:14 PM (#4651674)
For those keeping track -- or not -- the U. S. National Debt has increased $6.666 Trillion Under Obama:
When President Obama was first inaugurated on Jan. 20, 2009, the debt of the U.S. government was $10,626,877,048,913.08, according to the Treasury Department’s Bureau of the Public Debt. As of Jan. 31, 2014, the latest day reported, the debt was $17,293,019,654,983.61—an increase of $6,666,142,606,070.53 since Obama’s first inauguration. The total debt of the United States did not exceed $6.666 trillion until July 2003. In the little more than five years of the Obama presidency, the U.S. has accumulated as much new debt as it did in it’s first 227 years.

Quite an accomplishment.
   305. The Good Face Posted: February 04, 2014 at 05:18 PM (#4651679)
For those keeping track -- or not -- the U. S. National Debt has increased $6.666 Trillion Under Obama:

When President Obama was first inaugurated on Jan. 20, 2009, the debt of the U.S. government was $10,626,877,048,913.08, according to the Treasury Department’s Bureau of the Public Debt. As of Jan. 31, 2014, the latest day reported, the debt was $17,293,019,654,983.61—an increase of $6,666,142,606,070.53 since Obama’s first inauguration. The total debt of the United States did not exceed $6.666 trillion until July 2003. In the little more than five years of the Obama presidency, the U.S. has accumulated as much new debt as it did in it’s first 227 years.

Quite an accomplishment.


Yeah, but you're not taking into account all the awesome stuff that money has bought for the American people! I mean, look how great things have gone over the past 5 years...
   306. Los Angeles El Hombre de Anaheim Posted: February 04, 2014 at 05:42 PM (#4651694)
Quite an accomplishment.
The's debt's been out of control since January 20, 2009. Before that, debts and deficits didn't matter. The Republicans said so, so it must be true!
   307. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: February 04, 2014 at 05:53 PM (#4651707)
$6.666 Trillion you say?
$6.
666

666

Oh lordy lordy the wacko birds of left behind land will be out in full twitter force
   308. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 04, 2014 at 05:59 PM (#4651713)
Quite an accomplishment.


Yeah, and Kimmel was a better Admiral than Nimitz. Only a dozen or so ships were sunk under Kimmel's watch. Many, many times that number under Nimitz. BTW, what sort of name is Husband?
   309. Mefisto Posted: February 04, 2014 at 06:13 PM (#4651721)
Sure, it's the nominal value of the debt which matters, not the relation to GDP or the debt service burden. And of course every single penny of the increase in the last 6 years is due to Obama. He put it on his VISA card, you know.
   310. spike Posted: February 04, 2014 at 06:28 PM (#4651725)
meanwhile....


"The federal budget deficit is projected to drop in fiscal year 2014 to its lowest level since President Barack Obama took office, according to the Congressional Budget Office.

CBO projects the federal deficit will fall from $680 billion in fiscal year 2013 to $514 billion in fiscal year 2014."

link
   311. greenback calls it soccer Posted: February 04, 2014 at 06:42 PM (#4651729)
Sure, it's the nominal value of the debt which matters, not the relation to GDP or the debt service burden.

The relationship to GDP isn't really the issue. Governments are supposed to go into debt when a demand-driven recession hits. Frankly it was an accomplishment to go deeper into debt, because there were a lot of dumb asses calling for austerity, and for some odd reason those austerity kooks were taken seriously.
   312. Mefisto Posted: February 04, 2014 at 06:59 PM (#4651734)
Governments are supposed to go into debt when a demand-driven recession hits. Frankly it was an accomplishment to go deeper into debt, because there were a lot of dumb asses calling for austerity, and for some odd reason those austerity kooks were taken seriously.


True. The biggest failure of economic policy in the last 6 years has been that we didn't incur enough debt. My response was only to the frivolous nature of the quote from CNS.
   313. zonk Posted: February 04, 2014 at 07:05 PM (#4651738)
The relationship to GDP isn't really the issue. Governments are supposed to go into debt when a demand-driven recession hits. Frankly it was an accomplishment to go deeper into debt, because there were a lot of dumb asses calling for austerity, and for some odd reason those austerity kooks were taken seriously.


This would amuse me to no end... except that a pliant media and our stupid discourse has completely let the boobs off the hook... It's just like the fact that the neocons who engineered a costly decade of debacle in Iraq somehow still don't have their voices drowned out by laughter when Iran policy is discussed.

Democrats do a really awful job of reminding people of the ideas the opposition formerly espoused.
   314. Morty Causa Posted: February 04, 2014 at 07:14 PM (#4651744)
Biologists tend to have trouble debating creationists unless they watched a few debates first, from the biologist's POV most of the creationists' argument are based upon counterfactual premises that the biologists don't quite grasp, and the responses made by creationists to the arguments made by biologists tend to be befuddling non-sequiturs to the Biologists.

Many have expressed the fear that Nye has opened himself up for a sandbagging. Let's hope that he's not taking this for granted, and has tested himself through some serious coaching and exercises along the lines of a mock-trial.

It would have been better if it could have been left to a professional debater and wit, like the late Mr. Hitchens. Hitchens knew how to handle porkers like Ham.
   315. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: February 04, 2014 at 07:20 PM (#4651750)
Ken Ham's opening statement: “Let’s redefine what science is, so that creationism can be science.”

LOLWUT
   316. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 04, 2014 at 07:32 PM (#4651760)
Many have expressed the fear that Nye has opened himself up for a sandbagging. Let's hope that he's not taking this for granted, and has tested himself through some serious coaching and exercises along the lines of a mock-trial.


How many of you are prepared to hear the other guy's arguments in full faith?
   317. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 04, 2014 at 07:44 PM (#4651765)
How many of you are prepared to hear the other guy's arguments in full faith?


I was, until Ham quoted Jesus quoting Genesis about how marriage is to be between a man and a woman, and since Jesus, the son of God was quoting God, who wrote Genesis, that therefore ipso facto, Gay marriage is wrong.
   318. Lassus Posted: February 04, 2014 at 07:56 PM (#4651768)
How many of you are prepared to hear the other guy's arguments in full faith?

What do you mean?
   319. Morty Causa Posted: February 04, 2014 at 07:58 PM (#4651769)
How many of you are prepared to hear the other guy's arguments in full faith?

Prepared to hear is one thing. Peparing yourself for the argument is what I had in mind. Do you know anything about Ham? Do you think he has an argument that we don't know about?
   320. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:01 PM (#4651770)
"The federal budget deficit is projected to drop in fiscal year 2014 to its lowest level since President Barack Obama took office, according to the Congressional Budget Office."

Comparing Obama's latest deficit only to his previous deficits is a mighty low bar. But everyone probably knew that.
   321. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:02 PM (#4651771)
What do you mean?


I mean that all of the criticisms levied against the creationists for (assumedly) being unwilling to hear Nye's arguments due to their own certainty and faith almost certainly apply equally to the people leveling them against Ham. (This is not to say that Ham's arguments have any merit based on logical reasoning, but I doubt the religious folks are the only side coming to this "debate" with no intention of hearing anything that might dissuade them from their preexisting positions.)
   322. Morty Causa Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:03 PM (#4651772)
   323. Lassus Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:11 PM (#4651774)
I mean that all of the criticisms levied against the creationists for (assumedly) being unwilling to hear Nye's arguments due to their own certainty and faith almost certainly apply equally to the people leveling them against Ham. (This is not to say that Ham's arguments have any merit based on logical reasoning, but I doubt the religious folks are the only side coming to this "debate" with no intention of hearing anything that might dissuade them from their preexisting positions.)

I know "science IS faith" is a popular argument, but it's not an intelligent one. This debate is honestly a pretty stupid idea, in my opinion. What is the point of debating against religion, any religion, at all? I'm surprised at Nye.
   324. Morty Causa Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:11 PM (#4651775)
I mean that all of the criticisms levied against the creationists for (assumedly) being unwilling to hear Nye's arguments due to their own certainty and faith almost certainly apply equally to the people leveling them against Ham.

How do you know this? I've been educating myself on this for something like 20 years. I didn't come to my conclusions (however provisional they are) easy, and I don't ignore what has been said in opposition to them. The problem is that nothing new has been said from that other side in ages. It's simply play, rewind, replay. It's the epitome of the SOSO.

Having said this, I'll just note that Dawkins has often said, after his tour of the deep south, that he was surprised and delighted by the response he received practically everywhere he went. (But I'm still glad Dawkins isn't the one debating an empty suit like Ham--Dawkins at this point is too much a rock star, whether willingly or no.)
   325. Morty Causa Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:15 PM (#4651776)
What is the point of debating against religion, any religion, at all? I'm surprised at Nye.

The point is, as I think Nye and others have made clear, is that although practically no one in science takes their science seriously, they take their political influence seriously. Let's not forget there are creationist in the halls of power. Scientific creationist are tending to become political creationists. I wish Ken Miller was doing this--although Nye is coming across better than I thought he would.
   326. spike Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:16 PM (#4651777)
Nye's been in front of a camera for a looong time. He'll be fine.
   327. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:23 PM (#4651779)
I honestly can't understand why people on either side even take time to notice that Ken Ham and Bill Nye are standing at lecterns and reciting the same lines their sides have been reciting for eons.

From the scientific point of view, who cares if some people want to insist the universe is 6,000 years old? It's not like evidence to the contrary is hard to find for those interested.

From the fundamental Christian point of view, does anyone really think that even if you had the hard evidence to persuade someone that the universe was created by God 6,000 years ago, doing so would persuade anyone to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior? What sense does it make to base all your arguments on the assertion that everything is about faith, and then try to prove it with evidence?

I don't get it.
   328. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:36 PM (#4651784)
The point is, as I think Nye and others have made clear, is that although practically no one in science takes their science seriously, they take their political influence seriously. Let's not forget there are creationist in the halls of power. Scientific creationist are tending to become political creationists. I wish Ken Miller was doing this--although Nye is coming across better than I thought he would.


The solution is actually quite simple. Add a intro to philosophy and world religions elective to high school work. Teach comparative religion. Make sure everyone got equal treatment to prevent it from becoming Bible Study In Public School. Do science in science. (You could even include a philosophy of science/theory of knowledge week in the comparative cosmologies course.

Of course, no one would accept this.
   329. Morty Causa Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:37 PM (#4651785)
From the scientific point of view, who cares if some people want to insist the universe is 6,000 years old? It's not like evidence to the contrary is hard to find for those interested.

Because the anti-intellectual, anti-science strain is threatening to run wild right now, especially as it applies to our shared public life and especially wrt certain political factions.

I honestly can't understand why people on either side even take time to notice that Ken Ham and Bill Nye are standing at lecterns and reciting the same lines their sides have been reciting for eons.

These things in a lot of ways are like concerts. People go for the performances, even if they have the best standard versions of the songs on CD or album.

From the fundamental Christian point of view, does anyone really think that even if you had the hard evidence to persuade someone that the universe was created by God 6,000 years ago, doing so would persuade anyone to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior? What sense does it make to base all your arguments on the assertion that everything is about faith, and then try to prove it with evidence?

I don't get it.


Because for them it isn't about science; it's about an ideological consensus that they sense is open to collapse.
   330. Morty Causa Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:41 PM (#4651787)
328:

You meet your offer with the right objection. It's not about intellectual curiosity, much less science. It's about dominating a culture as a matter of political power. There shall be no other Gods before me, so don't bother looking.
   331. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:42 PM (#4651789)
Because the anti-intellectual, anti-science strain is threatening to run wild right now, especially as it applies to our shared public life and especially wrt certain political factions.


I'm just not seeing this. I look around and see the "anti-intellectual, anti-science strain" getting more marginalized with every passing year. It's the Information Age and science is winning big.

Because for them it isn't about science; it's about an ideological consensus that they sense is open to collapse.


Most of the religious rank-and-file would have no idea what that sentence even means, so I presume you're suggesting they are parroting what their leaders, who like most leaders are happily manipulating their followers to protect and consolidate their own power, are telling them.
   332. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:43 PM (#4651790)
Ham: "Why would you assume Noah was unskilled? You didn't meet Noah."

Nye (I wish): "Because Noah lived in a ####### desert. How many skilled shipwrights lived a subsistence farming and herding life in the ####### desert?"
   333. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:44 PM (#4651791)
There are plenty of Christians who wish the Creationist yabbers would disappear far more than we do. The majority of Christians reasonably consider Genesis to be an allegory.
   334. zonk Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:44 PM (#4651792)
I honestly can't understand why people on either side even take time to notice that Ken Ham and Bill Nye are standing at lecterns and reciting the same lines their sides have been reciting for eons.

From the scientific point of view, who cares if some people want to insist the universe is 6,000 years old? It's not like evidence to the contrary is hard to find for those interested.

From the fundamental Christian point of view, does anyone really think that even if you had the hard evidence to persuade someone that the universe was created by God 6,000 years ago, doing so would persuade anyone to accept Jesus Christ as their personal savior? What sense does it make to base all your arguments on the assertion that everything is about faith, and then try to prove it with evidence?

I don't get it.


It's because the debate IS political... and 'science' is late to the game understanding that.

It's something that they probably should have realized going back to Scopes, if not centuries earlier.

Sure, you have folks who wish to battle 'religion' and defeat 'faith'... but that's not the path most scientists wish to travel (or even care about).

I'm not an expert on Galileo, but even after his arrest and subsequent house arrest, I don't believe he renounced his faith.

It's the creationist side that keeps wanting to pick the fight, despite their whining to the contrary.

Certain segments of people of faith have a great deal of insecurity in probing for questions that can bring uncomfortable answers to long-held 'truths', especially for the biblical literalists.

It comes down to this:

Have you ever, EVER heard of a scientist insisting that the theory of evolution or anything similar be taught as Sunday school curriculum? Of course not - it's the religious side of the debate that keeps insisting that religion enter into the scientific curriculum because of paranoia, insecurities, and the corruption of the mind of the youth... not unlike how a heliocentric model gave the Vatican heebie-jeebies 5 centuries ago.

The existence of God, and a God as say... prime mover to creator to big loving guy in the sky who guides our very lives are perfectly fine things to debate, and I will gladly listen to those debates with an open mind.

But - the debates we have here in this context are not those kind of debates. They're a backdoor into keeping (and rebuilding) power.
   335. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:46 PM (#4651795)
There are plenty of Christians who wish the Creationist yabbers would disappear far more than we do. The majority of Christians reasonably consider Genesis to be an allegory.


This may be true but it's not particularly relevant.
   336. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:50 PM (#4651798)
Nye (I wish): "Because Noah lived in a ####### desert. How many skilled shipwrights lived a subsistence farming and herding life in the ####### desert?"


Ham: But, God is all powerful. God imbued Noah with the knowledge of the nature of things, filling him with ship building prowess beyond the ken of any previous shipwright, like it was the Matrix and Noah was Neo receiving a download on doing something previously impossible. A wizard did it.

There's no point wrestling the other side with logic, when the other side can (and from what I've seen so far in this "debate", repeatedly does) respond to logic with the reference to an omnipotent deity that isn't constrained by the slightest by logic.
   337. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:55 PM (#4651801)
There's no point wrestling the other side with logic, when the other side can (and from what I've seen so far in this "debate", repeatedly does) respond to logic with the reference to an omnipotent deity that isn't constrained by the slightest by logic.


Well, yeah. How is this a surprise? This is why a profitable debate between scientists and Biblical literalists is impossible. They may as well be speaking in different languages.
   338. Morty Causa Posted: February 04, 2014 at 08:59 PM (#4651802)
There are plenty of Christians who wish the Creationist yabbers would disappear far more than we do. The majority of Christians reasonably consider Genesis to be an allegory.

Now, they do. But they didn't always. And these "rational" Christians certainly have kept quiet about it through the ages, always counselling the non-believers instead to assume the burden of deferring to the sensitive plant feelings of these wildly irrational Christians. If not for politics, why should we walk on eggs around these super-sensitive religionists? If they want to put on shoulder pads and play with the big boys, they need to learn to take a hit.

   339. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 04, 2014 at 09:05 PM (#4651804)
The Q& A is worthless, and a setup. Nye is getting questions that can be answered by science with only "We don't know", but the creationists can answer "God did it." And of course Ham is getting softballs, nay beachballs.
   340. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: February 04, 2014 at 09:08 PM (#4651805)
Home field advantage!
   341. formerly dp Posted: February 04, 2014 at 09:12 PM (#4651806)
I'll just note that Dawkins has often said, after his tour of the deep south, that he was surprised and delighted by the response he received practically everywhere he went.
Dawkins gave a talk at my school last year (the talk wasn't affiliated with the school, just took place on campus), and about an hour or so before the talk they had to start turning people away because the place was so packed. There are a lot of atheist/agnostic/secular humanist types all over the country, and one of the positives of the New Atheism movement is that it's made them more visible than they'd been in the past.
   342. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 04, 2014 at 09:18 PM (#4651807)
Nye looks like he's ready to explode, and I don't blame him.
   343. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 04, 2014 at 09:19 PM (#4651808)
Catastrophic plate tectonics!
   344. formerly dp Posted: February 04, 2014 at 09:22 PM (#4651810)
Thanks for posting this debate. Would not have known about it otherwise.
   345. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 04, 2014 at 09:27 PM (#4651812)
Ham: "there is nothing in observational science which contradicts a young ( 6,000 years) universe."

How does one argue with that?
   346. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: February 04, 2014 at 09:36 PM (#4651815)
One doesn't. One could for example point out that we are presently seeing light from stars we know to be millions of light-years away, and Ham will say--as well he should, working from his worldview--that, well, God is powerful enough to create light already most of the way here.
   347. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 04, 2014 at 09:39 PM (#4651817)
Good Lord! Are we really debating creationism 100 years after the monkey trial? I fear for the future Frederick.
   348. Morty Causa Posted: February 04, 2014 at 09:40 PM (#4651818)
Dawkins gave a talk at my school last year (the talk wasn't affiliated with the school, just took place on campus), and about an hour or so before the talk they had to start turning people away because the place was so packed. There are a lot of atheist/agnostic/secular humanist types all over the country, and one of the positives of the New Atheism movement is that it's made them more visible than they'd been in the past.

For all his faults, whatever they may be, we should forever be grateful to Dawkins for giving many of us to courage to assert ourselves. There have been many forerunners, but he took it to a grand scale, and that cannot be demeaned. I like to say it took a lot of courage on his part, but, actually, it didn't take any. I've been reading him and keeping up with him for almost 20 years, probably reading almost all of what he's published, and I don't think he ever had any qualms or hesitation about bringing it to the fore with full force. I guess that comes from being a true believer. And it helps that he paid his dues with some great scientific writing from a secure purchase in a premier university.
   349. Morty Causa Posted: February 04, 2014 at 09:45 PM (#4651820)
and Ham will say--as well he should, working from his worldview--that, well, God is powerful enough to create light already most of the way here.

There's no answer to "God did it." You can only simply make it clear that that is all your opponent's got, and that has always been insufficient. Nothing follows from that. It makes nothing happen. Except inside your head.
   350. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 04, 2014 at 09:45 PM (#4651821)
One could for example point out that we are presently seeing light from stars we know to be millions of light-years away, and Ham will say--as well he should, working from his worldview--that, well, God is powerful enough to create light already most of the way here.


Ah yes, the "my loving, caring father god is a lying #######\" tactic. Always a crowd pleaser.
   351. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 04, 2014 at 09:46 PM (#4651822)
There is a book that gives the history.....


Lord of the Rings?
   352. Tilden Katz Posted: February 04, 2014 at 09:48 PM (#4651823)
Ham's not even American! Close the borders!
   353. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 04, 2014 at 09:51 PM (#4651824)
Ah yes, the "my loving, caring father god is a lying #######\" tactic.


That's what my wife kept asking me as she overheard me listening. Women!
   354. The Yankee Clapper Posted: February 04, 2014 at 10:05 PM (#4651825)
In another telling sign of how the mid-terms are shaping up, Senator Mark Warner (D-VA) -- facing stronger than expected GOP opposition & saddled with his unpopular support for ObamaCare -- has come out in favor of deporting Justin Bieber.
   355. Morty Causa Posted: February 04, 2014 at 10:05 PM (#4651826)
Nye isn't even a scientist. He's an educator with a degree in engineering. If I had known that, my reservations would have been greater. But I think he did well. Passion makes up for a lot. After all, Hitchens didn't have an educational background in science either.
   356. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 04, 2014 at 10:06 PM (#4651827)
Nye was asked a question: "Without radioactive decay dating, how else would you prove your theories?" He was flabbergasted, because radioactive decay dating is fundamental. I would have loved to see him respond with "Without Genesis, how would you prove the great flood?"
   357. Howie Menckel Posted: February 04, 2014 at 10:11 PM (#4651829)
the only issue I have with the modern science crowd is that while they accept that every previous generation/century science thought they had figured it all out, they sometimes were laughably wrong.

It looks more and more promising that such an era is over. And as long as the modern crowd would be able to embrace a stunning new development (flies don't emerge from dead bodies?), there's nothing to see here. And the relative certitude of current science-minded folks matching earlier such folks does NOT mean more new developmental massive shifts are coming.
   358. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: February 04, 2014 at 10:16 PM (#4651830)
I would have loved to see him respond with "Without Genesis, how would you prove the great flood?"


I am very thankful that he did not respond that way.
   359. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 04, 2014 at 10:18 PM (#4651831)
the only issue I have with the modern science crowd is that while they accept that every previous generation/century science thought they had figured it all out, they sometimes were laughably wrong.


I don't disagree with that. But this fool tonight went way beyond that. He proved nothing. Disproved at best, 0.1% of the scientific data contradicting his theories, and then claimed victory assuming the other 99.9% was wrong as well.
   360. Mefisto Posted: February 04, 2014 at 10:18 PM (#4651833)
Hey, I'd favor deporting Bieber too. But I'd do it for his music alone.

Seems like a winning issue for Warner, but maybe the Rs can shut down the government to prevent the deportation.
   361. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 04, 2014 at 10:20 PM (#4651835)
I am very thankful that he did not respond that way.


Why, other than the old adage "you don't get down and wrestle with the pigs." I mean, it's not like the original question was asked with respect.
   362. starving to death with a full STEAGLES Posted: February 04, 2014 at 10:23 PM (#4651836)
the only issue I have with the modern science crowd is that while they accept that every previous generation/century science thought they had figured it all out, they sometimes were laughably wrong.
are you ronald mcdonald?
   363. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 04, 2014 at 10:37 PM (#4651839)
are you ronald mcdonald?


Sometimes.
   364. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: February 04, 2014 at 10:42 PM (#4651842)
Why, other than the old adage "you don't get down and wrestle with the pigs." I mean, it's not like the original question was asked with respect.


Because that particular question will throw the door wide open for Ham to and drone on yet again about how sedimentary fossil distribution proves most of the fossils are of animals that died and were buried in a catastrophic worldwide flood and so on and so forth.

You can imagine how a debate would proceed from there, and hopefully you can also imagine how pointless it all is.
   365. Tilden Katz Posted: February 04, 2014 at 11:01 PM (#4651844)
In another telling sign of how the mid-terms are shaping up, Senator Mark Warner (D-VA) -- facing stronger than expected GOP opposition & saddled with his unpopular support for ObamaCare -- has come out in favor of deporting Justin Bieber.


Popular Democrat realizes he has plenty of breathing room against an RNC hack like Ed Gillespie?
   366. BrianBrianson Posted: February 05, 2014 at 04:49 AM (#4651876)
"Without radioactive decay dating, how else would you prove your theories?" He was flabbergasted, because radioactive decay dating is fundamental.


Radioactive decay is useful for determining the age of the Earth, and of Meteorites, but you can determine the age of the Sun (to within a factor of ~2) by helioseimology, or the age of the universe with Baryon Acoustic Oscillations + Type Ia supernovae distances, or the age of the solar system by looking at the dynamic stability times for objects (probably only good to a factor of ~10, but can easily distinguish a few billion years from a few thousand years), hell, to within a factor of 10 is rife with mechanisms - residual heat of formation leaking from Jupiter, cratering density on the surface of asteroids, time to form Saturn's moon system from the spreading of its rings, time to move the Earth's moon out by tides (or Pluto-Charon, or Mercury). The solar system and the universe are both rife with facts that demand they're a billion or ten billion years old.
   367. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: February 05, 2014 at 07:15 AM (#4651882)
the only issue I have with the modern science crowd is that while they accept that every previous generation/century science thought they had figured it all out, they sometimes were laughably wrong.


A recent theory by a mathematician argues that life exists as a basic response to dispersing energy. It's a pretty big deal in origination theory. Science is not dismissing it out hand. Science takes new results and acknowledges them when they hold up to review. Science has little patience with reactionary attempts to re-up 6000 year old hunter-gatherer creation myths.
   368. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 05, 2014 at 08:05 AM (#4651890)
Back in the day I spent way too much time arguing against the creationists. Learned all the ins and out and so on. It was fun, but I have no desire to go back there.
   369. Lassus Posted: February 05, 2014 at 08:08 AM (#4651891)
In another telling sign of how the mid-terms are shaping up, Senator Mark Warner (D-VA) -- facing stronger than expected GOP opposition & saddled with his unpopular support for ObamaCare -- has come out in favor of deporting Justin Bieber.

That's a good reason to vote for whatever internet cat might be up for election in that district.
   370. formerly dp Posted: February 05, 2014 at 08:12 AM (#4651892)
For all his faults, whatever they may be, we should forever be grateful to Dawkins for giving many of us to courage to assert ourselves. There have been many forerunners, but he took it to a grand scale, and that cannot be demeaned.
I agree. And I would have been happy to see him speak, but was not about to fight a crowd to do so. There's a local Secular Humanist club that sponsored the event, and they're surprisingly visible at public events (they usually distribute flyers at the various fairs around town). There are tons of transplants here, and many of them make friends by joining a church-- the Secular Humanists have fulfilled that function for the nonbelievers who migrate here. It's heartening.

The morning after the debate, though, I am not as positive on it, from a strategy standpoint-- NPR just ran a quick story on it, and the way it was reported, Nye's lending credibility to the Creationist perspective.
   371. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 05, 2014 at 08:47 AM (#4651905)
It is lost in all the other demographic shifts that are against the current GOP brand, but secularism (defined however you like) is rapidly growing in the US and also world wide. I am not suggesting the end of religion or anything like it, but the secular population is growing in numbers, visibility, strength.

One of the reasons the "Christian Right" is so noisy is they see this and there is some fear there. The godless are coming and will ruin our great nation in an orgy of sin and science.
   372. BDC Posted: February 05, 2014 at 08:55 AM (#4651908)
The Ark did come with a manual: "Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits." Hey, it's easier than IKEA instructions.
   373. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 05, 2014 at 08:58 AM (#4651909)
By the way a bit off topic, but the upcoming Noah movie looks terrible. It might end up OK, maybe, but I doubt it.
   374. bunyon Posted: February 05, 2014 at 08:59 AM (#4651910)

The morning after the debate, though, I am not as positive on it, from a strategy standpoint-- NPR just ran a quick story on it, and the way it was reported, Nye's lending credibility to the Creationist perspective.


Of course. I get what Nye is trying to do: reach out, convince people the error of their ways. And he probably will convince a handful of youngsters and that is not to be discounted. While he's doing it, though, there is a nutball creationist on stage with him convincing masses. Either you trust data or you trust preachers. You can accept a universe that is >10 billion years old and believe in God. But you can't just believe in God and make up numbers for the age of the universe. Two separate questions having little to do with one another. Anyone who takes the Bible (or any other book written millenia ago) as a good scientific guide is a fool and not worthy or acknowledgement.


As for the certitude of modern science; scientists, in general, are open to new ideas/theories THAT HAVE DATA TO SUPPORT THEM. Individual scientists can, and do, get very married to their theories and are hard to convince. But if you can bring a theory that better explains the data you WILL win. But you have to have the data. Anyone who thinks the earth is 6000 years old or that evolution can't occur is not doing that.

The debate was stupid. Nye is a fine representative. But we needed none. We (science) do need better politics. Politics is about money and influence, not hashing out facts.
   375. zonk Posted: February 05, 2014 at 09:10 AM (#4651915)
The godless are coming and will ruin our great nation in an orgy of sin and science.


It's about time we had cyborg sex drones!

Is there a link where I can order a few?
   376. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 05, 2014 at 09:17 AM (#4651917)
It's about time we had cyborg sex drones!

Is there a link where I can order a few?


Have you seen the movie Her? It has an interesting slant on related topics. It was an interesting movie, and not really a chick flick at all by the way. Not a date movie either, oops.
   377. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 05, 2014 at 09:19 AM (#4651918)
By the way a bit off topic, but the upcoming Noah movie looks terrible. It might end up OK, maybe, but I doubt it.


I only have faith because of Darren Aronofsky. He's a good director.
   378. bunyon Posted: February 05, 2014 at 09:23 AM (#4651920)
My wife is currently studying spanish using an app called duolingo. The female voice with that app is hot.
   379. BDC Posted: February 05, 2014 at 09:26 AM (#4651922)
Hmmn, the Duolingo French and German voices sound like robots. I'm studying the wrong languages.
   380. BrianBrianson Posted: February 05, 2014 at 09:31 AM (#4651925)
Matter of perspective, I guess. My wife has taken to referring to the French speaking lady on Duolingo as my mistress.
   381. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 05, 2014 at 09:35 AM (#4651926)
When using the GPS I always used to have it set on the Irish female voice, yum. Sadly the new GPS did not have that option, so I bought the Star Wars pack and now Darth Vader* gives me directions. Not hot, but kind of funny, so it works.

* Well a semi-OK Darth imitator.
   382. bunyon Posted: February 05, 2014 at 09:37 AM (#4651929)
Put your phone in a scuba mask, Mouse.
   383. bunyon Posted: February 05, 2014 at 09:38 AM (#4651930)
By the way, it's embarrassing how far behind my wife I am in Spanish. She has really taken to that app.
   384. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 05, 2014 at 09:38 AM (#4651931)
When using the GPS I always used to have it set on the Irish female voice, yum.


I wish they had a "Jolly Leprechaun" setting :(
   385. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 05, 2014 at 09:41 AM (#4651932)
So how about CVS deciding to halt sales of Tobacco? The articles claim they are leaving more than a billion dollars on the table, of course the stuff they put in its place will make up some of that, since it is not like the shelf space is disappearing with the product. Interesting move anyway.

I suspect there will be a right wing conspiracy theory about it or something, but I have no idea what it might be.
   386. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 05, 2014 at 09:43 AM (#4651936)
So how about CVS deciding to halt sales of Tobacco? The articles claim they are leaving more than a billion dollars on the table, of course the stuff they put in its place will make up some of that, since it is not like the shelf space is disappearing with the product. Interesting move anyway.

I suspect there will be a right wing conspiracy theory about it or something, but I have no idea what it might be.


The obvious solution is to substitute tobacco shelf space with bibles and Ann Coulter screeds.
   387. BDC Posted: February 05, 2014 at 09:46 AM (#4651938)
Duolingo is indeed very good. So is Mango, which one can purchase or use free if your public library subscribes – Mango has a lot more languages.

Irish GPS sounds imprecise. "Sure it's not the next turn you want at all. Now that was the street where the O'Learys lived before they moved to Rathmines. You remember Kathleen O'Leary. Ah, you do. Go on out of that. Ah sure you've missed your turn now, you'll have to go back entirely."
   388. Misirlou was a Buddhist prodigy Posted: February 05, 2014 at 09:52 AM (#4651941)
The Ark did come with a manual: "Make thee an ark of gopher wood; rooms shalt thou make in the ark, and shalt pitch it within and without with pitch. And this is the fashion which thou shalt make it of: The length of the ark shall be three hundred cubits, the breadth of it fifty cubits, and the height of it thirty cubits."


Riiiiiight.


What's a cubit?
   389. BDC Posted: February 05, 2014 at 09:53 AM (#4651943)
C'mon, everybody's got the Cubit Converter app.
   390. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 05, 2014 at 10:06 AM (#4651950)
Ham: "there is nothing in observational science which contradicts a young ( 6,000 years) universe."


In the latest levels of the city of Eridu is a temple, dated to c. 2000 B.C. by historical records. (This, by the way, is about the time of the Great Flood according to creationists). Below that temple is an earlier temple, which had been used for several hundred years before the later temple was built.

Below that temple is another temple. Below that temple is another temple. Below that temple is another temple. Below that temple is another temple. Below that temple is another temple. Below that temple is another temple. Below that temple is another temple. Below that temple is another temple. Below that temple is another temple. Below that temple is another temple. Below that temple is another temple. Below that temple is another temple. Below that temple is another temple. Below that temple is another temple. Below that temple is another temple And below that temple, is what we believe is the first temple on the site, a very small structure with a simple altar that dates to approximately 5000 B.C, or 1000 years before the Creation.

There's your observational evidence for you.
   391. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 05, 2014 at 10:08 AM (#4651952)
It's temples all the way down?
   392. spike Posted: February 05, 2014 at 10:10 AM (#4651953)
Except for the second floor, that's lingerie and men's hats.
   393. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: February 05, 2014 at 10:12 AM (#4651954)
Isn't there a lot of evidence dating the earliest human settlements to 10,000 BC?
   394. Bitter Mouse Posted: February 05, 2014 at 10:15 AM (#4651955)
Below that temple is another temple And below that temple, is what we believe is the first temple on the site, a very small structure with a simple altar that dates to approximately 5000 B.C, or 1000 years before the Creation.


Much like the like from distant stars, the fossils, the evidence of continental drift and ... and ... and ... God created it all that way, for reasons. Mysterious, unknowable reasons. All part of the plan. The mysterious unknowable plan. Feel the boundless love.
   395. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 05, 2014 at 10:17 AM (#4651960)
Or burn in eternal hellfire. Your call.
   396. BrianBrianson Posted: February 05, 2014 at 10:18 AM (#4651961)
   397. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 05, 2014 at 10:19 AM (#4651963)

Isn't there a lot of evidence dating the earliest human settlements to 10,000 BC?


At least.
   398. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: February 05, 2014 at 10:35 AM (#4651974)
   399. Ok, Griffey's Dunn (Nothing Iffey About Griffey) Posted: February 05, 2014 at 10:36 AM (#4651975)
The earliest remains of Jericho go back to at least 9,000 BC.
   400. BDC Posted: February 05, 2014 at 10:37 AM (#4651976)
The Clovis culture, with its distinctive stone spearpoints, was widespread in the Western US (and further afield) 11,000 years BCE. (It's named after a nice little town in New Mexico about a day's drive west of DFW.) And that's the edge of one of the further radiations of humans from African origins, of course. It took us a long period before 11,000 BCE to get this far.
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