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Wednesday, January 02, 2013

OTP - Jan 2013: Jewish Journal:E1: An error in baseball and Mideast politics

Tripon Posted: January 02, 2013 at 02:48 PM | 2805 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: ot, politics

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   1. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4337096)
Two points based off the comic:

a) In what world is Bibi a lefty???

b) It's even less politically feasible, but doesn't a three state solution (Israel/Gaza/West Bank) essentially codifying the current arrangement seem the most practical solution?
   2. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:06 PM (#4337108)
in what world is Bibi a lefty???

According to Wikipedia, an world in which environmental influences before and after birth have an effect on handedness, and as both motor control of speaking and handiwork require fine motor skills, having one hemisphere of the brain do both would be more efficient than having it divided up.
   3. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:10 PM (#4337112)
It's even less politically feasible, but doesn't a three state solution (Israel/Gaza/West Bank) essentially codifying the current arrangement seem the most practical solution?

Certainly seems more practical. Long-term wacky boundaries in which a chunk of a country is on the other side of another country sounds like a pain in the butt. See West Prussia.
   4. SteveF Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4337115)
According to Wikipedia...


You have a somewhat dry sense of humor, Dan.
   5. spike Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:20 PM (#4337131)
See West Prussia

I think East Pakistan would be a more apt example...
   6. OCF Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:23 PM (#4337132)
Long-term wacky boundaries in which a chunk of a country is on the other side of another country sounds like a pain in the butt.

East Pakistan did not survive, and there was a war when it unraveled. But Alaska isn't going anywhere.

And speaking of Prussia, or ex-Prussia, there is now Kaliningrad (formerly Königsberg) - Russia, wedged between Poland and Lithuania.
   7. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:24 PM (#4337135)
And speaking of Prussia, or ex-Prussia, there is now Kaliningrad (formerly Königsberg) - Russia, wedged between Poland and Lithuania.

Yeah, that's a weird one. What are the people there? Russians? Poles? Lithuanians? Germans?
   8. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:24 PM (#4337136)
Here's a snippet of an article from ESPN's Jim Caple likening Andy to the Tea Party:

Voting for the Hall of Fame has become the equivalent of trying to pass a budget through Congress. That's partly because the Baseball Writers' Association of America has become as polarized as Congress.

On one side, we have writers who see suspected users of performance-enhancing drugs as cheats, and so they will never vote for them under any circumstances, regardless of their awards and accomplishments. Rachel Maddow might say these writers are the BBWAA equivalent of the Tea Party.


   9. Tripon Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:29 PM (#4337144)

East Pakistan did not survive, and there was a war when it unraveled. But Alaska isn't going anywhere.


Alaska isn't really a good example. Nobody lives up in Alaska, or and the two surrounding Canadian provinces, British Columbia, and the Yukon either have their population center much further away, or none at all. There's simply isn't enough people in either area to have a dispute. While places like Pakistan or Palestine seems to be bursting with people, which helps create tension.
   10. Greg K Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:34 PM (#4337147)
Alaska isn't really a good example. Nobody lives up in Alaska, or and the two surrounding Canadian provinces, British Columbia, and the Yukon either have their population center much further away, or none at all. There's simply isn't enough people in either area to have a dispute. While places like Pakistan or Palestine seems to be bursting with people, which helps create tension.

54-40 or continued pleasant relations!
   11. zonk Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4337150)
And speaking of Prussia, or ex-Prussia, there is now Kaliningrad (formerly Königsberg) - Russia, wedged between Poland and Lithuania.

Yeah, that's a weird one. What are the people there? Russians? Poles? Lithuanians? Germans?


Today?

Probably Russians... Stalin pulled a Hitler and poured Russian settlers into the area after the Red Army overran Prussia - expelling the Germans who didn't leave of their own accord. I think the same thing had occurred centuries before, replacing "Russians" and "Germans" with "Poles", "Lithuanians", "Teutons", etc.

My own genealogy traces a part of its history to the area (back the Polish/Lithuanian days) -- but I've never been able to learn whether we were part of a wave that kicked out original inhabitants or were inhabitants who found themselves expelled.... so I'm not certain if I'm oppressed or oppressive by birthright ;-)
   12. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:38 PM (#4337153)
i guess it's maybe just me but i think the above cartoon is unduly inflammatory
   13. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:39 PM (#4337156)
East Pakistan did not survive, and there was a war when it unraveled. But Alaska isn't going anywhere.

We make fun of Canadians, but I'm pretty sure we get along with them better than Israels and its neighbors do!

Anyway, it's easier with an ocean. You can't drive to Alaska without going through Canada, but you can fly from the west coast to Alaskan cities without going over any other country's airspace.
   14. OCF Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:40 PM (#4337157)
What are the people there? Russians? Poles? Lithuanians? Germans?

According to wiki, about a million people live in the Kaliningrad Oblast, and their ethnicity is given as 86% Russian with most of the rest being Ukranian and Belorussian. Poles, Germans, and Lithuanians are all at 1% or less. What this ethnic distribution represents is an extremely effective act of ethnic cleansing between 1944 and 1950. The Germans all went somewhere else and never came back.
   15. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:42 PM (#4337159)
i guess it's maybe just me but i think the above cartoon is unduly inflammatory

I'm also confused why the umpire is in the baseline, and is wearing a sweater.
   16. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:43 PM (#4337160)
i guess it's maybe just me but i think the above cartoon is unduly inflammatory

I think on balance, the cartoon is fair. The umpire appears to be in better shape than the average MLB umpire and presumably has successfully counted to two at some point.

Looking at that motion, I think Netanyahu is going to need rotator cuff surgery at some point.
   17. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:43 PM (#4337161)
snapper

because the cartoonist doesn't understand baseball

   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:44 PM (#4337164)
The Germans all went somewhere else and never came back.

The lucky ones went somewhere else. Lots didn't make it out, and most of the women who did were gang raped.

My Polish family was forced resttled into the old German town of Stettin (Szeczin today). They were expelled from the Polish/Lithuanian border region taken by the Soviets. Thats the ones that were left after repeated exiles to Siberia.

It's a real sin that there was no accounting for the ex-KGB/NKVD/MGU after the USSR fell. There were a lot of old monsters that needed to be put up against a wall and shot. Not to mention they need to did up Lenin and Stalin and dump them in a cesspool somewhere.
   19. zonk Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:44 PM (#4337165)

According to wiki, about a million people live in the Kaliningrad Oblast, and their ethnicity is given as 86% Russian with most of the rest being Ukranian and Belorussian. Poles, Germans, and Lithuanians are all at 1% or less. What this ethnic distribution represents is an extremely effective act of ethnic cleansing between 1944 and 1950. The Germans all went somewhere else and never came back.


Yeah -

Of course, lots of the Germans who were there had kicked out the previous inhabitants just a generation/decade before... and the Lithuanians had kicked out the Germans before that... and the Poles before that...

It's like the Baltic's own like slice of the Balkans -- it's always been an important geographic area in the Baltic and has been forever being conquered, inhabitants expelled, resettled, rinse, repeat.
   20. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:49 PM (#4337171)
Of course, lots of the Germans who were there had kicked out the previous inhabitants just a generation/decade before

No, that area was German from the days of the Teutonic knights. Germany lost territory after WWI in that area.
   21. Mefisto Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:52 PM (#4337173)
What this ethnic distribution represents is an extremely effective act of ethnic cleansing between 1944 and 1950. The Germans all went somewhere else and never came back.


They went to Germany. Fun fact: the population of Germany didn't actually fall from 1939 to 1945, despite the war, because so many ethnic Germans were forced out of Eastern Europe and back into Germany.
   22. OCF Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:55 PM (#4337178)
The city (of Königsberg) gets two notes in the history of mathematics. The first concerns a 15th century expert in astronomy and trigonometry and a prominent advocate of calendar reform. His given name was something like Johannes Müller, but he's generally known as Regiomontanus - a Latinized version of the name of his home town. The second note is Leonhard Euler and the problem of traversing the seven bridges of the city - the beginnings of the subject of graph theory.
   23. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4337179)
Looking at that motion, I think Netanyahu is going to need rotator cuff surgery at some point.


For one thing, nobody (except a girl, or a guy who throws like one) finishes their throwing motion with their arm stretched straight out, perpendicular to the ground like that. They carry their arm downwards on the follow through after releasing the ball.
   24. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:02 PM (#4337183)

For one thing, nobody (except a girl, or a guy who throws like one) finishes their throwing motion with their arm stretched straight out, perpendicular to the ground like that. They carry their arm downwards on the follow through after releasing the ball.


Also, they seem to be playing on the tiniest baseball diamond in history.

[Edit: Upon further reflection, I think someone else hit the umpire (probably Barry Bonds) and the 15-foot-tall Netanyahu Golem was futilely trying to defend him, but he just couldn't get there in time, held back by the weight of his extremely round, long buttocks.
   25. spike Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:06 PM (#4337185)
Danzig (Gdansk) was a historically German city prior to the demise of West Prussia, IIRC
   26. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:06 PM (#4337186)
Dow finishes today up 2.35%.
   27. Ray (RDP) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:06 PM (#4337187)
Also, they seem to be playing on the tiniest baseball diamond in history.


And yet no other fielders are in sight.
   28. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:14 PM (#4337194)
Dow finishes today up 2.35%.

And my taxes didn't go up too much, just the SS and Medicare/Obamacare thing. So, not a bad day.
   29. The District Attorney Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:17 PM (#4337202)
Certainly seems more practical. Long-term wacky boundaries in which a chunk of a country is on the other side of another country sounds like a pain in the butt.
Canada came pretty darn close to having to deal with this, if Quebec had seceded.

Also, I really hope that great Korean baseball cartoonist gets back in the game.

   30. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:18 PM (#4337203)
It's even less politically feasible, but doesn't a three state solution (Israel/Gaza/West Bank) essentially codifying the current arrangement seem the most practical solution?


Such a "solution" would be equivalent to "Greater Israel," which is what Bibi and Avi are playing for anyway.

Danzig (Gdansk) was a historically German city prior to the demise of West Prussia, IIRC


MOTHER!
   31. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:22 PM (#4337208)
Such a "solution" would be equivalent to "Greater Israel," which is what Bibi and Avi are playing for anyway.
Yes; Sam's an expert on Israeli politics.
   32. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:23 PM (#4337210)
Yes; Sam's an expert on Israeli politics.


I aware of the larger goals of Bibi and Lieberman's coalition. It's not a terribly hard thing to suss out, David. I mean, you don't need a secret handshake or anything.
   33. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:24 PM (#4337216)

Looking at that motion, I think Netanyahu is going to need rotator cuff surgery at some point.


The dreaded inverted-mem.
   34. Lassus Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:28 PM (#4337222)
For one thing, nobody (except a girl, or a guy who throws like one) finishes their throwing motion with their arm stretched straight out, perpendicular to the ground like that

Maybe Bibi played a lot of darts, and hasn't really adjusted to baseball yet.
   35. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:31 PM (#4337226)
Here's a snippet of an article from ESPN's Jim Caple likening Andy to the Tea Party:
When it comes to PEDs, Andy's definitely a baseball TPer.
   36. Delorians Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:33 PM (#4337228)
Also, they seem to be playing on the tiniest baseball diamond in history.

And yet no other fielders are in sight.

And the pitcher's mound is nowhere close to being in the center of the diamond.
   37. esseff Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:36 PM (#4337231)
I presume this is Netanyahu's reaction to baseball's new rule that you can no longer just fake a pickoff at third to try to get the runner at first.
   38. Nasty Nate Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:41 PM (#4337237)
I presume this is Netanyahu's reaction to baseball's new rule that you can no longer just fake a pickoff at third to try to get the runner at first.


Hmm, so you are saying that this is a balk and actually not an E1.
   39. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:45 PM (#4337242)
The dreaded inverted-mem.

That was funny.
   40. Gonfalon B. Posted: January 02, 2013 at 05:58 PM (#4337261)
You can always spot a good political cartoonist by the way his characters always wear giant buttons that say "WASHINGTON D.C. INSIDERS" or "THE CONCERNED TAXPAYER."
   41. zonk Posted: January 02, 2013 at 06:07 PM (#4337270)
   42. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 02, 2013 at 06:11 PM (#4337277)
Such a "solution" would be equivalent to "Greater Israel," which is what Bibi and Avi are playing for anyway


Yes; Sam's an expert on Israeli politics.


Of course this made me giggle, because I'm the one who needed Sam by saying that his understanding of Israeli/Palestinian politics/societies was roughly akin to DMN's understanding of US Politics/Society during the civil rights era...

A "three state solution" would not be remotely equivalent to the "Greater Israel" sought by some on the Israeli Right-
that would require the expulsion of most Palestinians from the West bank into Jordan, and the annexation of the West Bank into Israel "proper"- as insane as that idea is, those seeking a Greater Israel are nonetheless actually pretty stumped about what to do with Gaza... although I think the preferred "solution" is letting Egypt have it. Of course most of the Israeli Right exists in an echo chamber that is remarkably hermetically self-sealed and constrained even by US partisan ideologue echo chamber standards.

   43. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 06:13 PM (#4337279)

You can always spot a good political cartoonist by the way his characters always wear giant buttons that say "WASHINGTON D.C. INSIDERS" or "THE CONCERNED TAXPAYER."


Reminds me of this guy.
   44. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 02, 2013 at 06:28 PM (#4337292)
A "three state solution" would not be remotely equivalent to the "Greater Israel" sought by some on the Israeli Right-
that would require the expulsion of most Palestinians from the West bank into Jordan, and the annexation of the West Bank into Israel "proper"- as insane as that idea is, those seeking a Greater Israel are nonetheless actually pretty stumped about what to do with Gaza... although I think the preferred "solution" is letting Egypt have it.


See, that's interesting and helpful. So, the opposite of a David post. My understanding is that any solution that doesn't apply some sort of contiguous line border and a shared capitol of Jerusalem is little more than biding time until the settlers occupy every square inch of Palestinian Jerusalem and make it a moot point.
   45. Fat Al Posted: January 02, 2013 at 06:34 PM (#4337303)
Just fyi, for those who haven't perused it lately, the Hamas Charter.

And, just for kicks, Resolution 181(II), the original "Two-State Solution."
   46. McCoy Posted: January 02, 2013 at 06:39 PM (#4337310)
New Diplomacy game starting up at playdiplomacy. 4 spots left. BTF Diplomacy VI, password: baseball
   47. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 02, 2013 at 06:50 PM (#4337322)
My understanding is that any solution that doesn't apply some sort of contiguous line border and a shared capitol of Jerusalem is little more than biding time until the settlers occupy every square inch of Palestinian Jerusalem and make it a moot point.

yes the "settler" goal is to eventually make it a "moot point"
of course the religiously motivated leaders of the settler movement are also clinically insane.

As a voting bloc they have something in common with some here- while never an actual majority of the voting populace, by consistent bloc voting they nonetheless manage to either end up in charge and get what they want or at the very least, are in a position to veto what they don't want- and they are intensely goal oriented- what they want trumps EVERYTHING and EVERYONE else every time- and they are shameless about it- if they want "A" they will support any coalition that will let them have "A"- what that particular coalition stands for with respect to issues "B," "C" and "D" is immaterial- B,C and D may be the single most important issues by far to a majority of Israelis- but the Settlers will pivot 180 degrees on those issues repeatedly and without hesitation to gain advantage in their quest to advance "A"
   48. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: January 02, 2013 at 06:54 PM (#4337326)
in what world is Bibi a lefty???

In a world where the cartoonist knows that if he'd drawn him as a righty, his name would have had to have been placed on the front of his uniform in order for us to see it, which would offend us purists.

------------------------------------------

When it comes to PEDs, Andy's definitely a baseball TPer.

Yeah, a TPer who'd vote for Clemens, Sosa and Bagwell. Some TPer.

------------------------------------------

You can always spot a good political cartoonist by the way his characters always wear giant buttons that say "WASHINGTON D.C. INSIDERS" or "THE CONCERNED TAXPAYER."



Reminds me of this guy.

Not bad, but nothing along those lines could ever compete with the National Lampoon in its prime.
   49. esseff Posted: January 02, 2013 at 07:20 PM (#4337348)
Alaska isn't really a good example. Nobody lives up in Alaska, or and the two surrounding Canadian provinces, British Columbia, and the Yukon either have their population center much further away, or none at all. There's simply isn't enough people in either area to have a dispute.



But then there's this place, one of my favorite geographical oddities, if not on the scale of Kaliningrad.
   50. BDC Posted: January 02, 2013 at 07:38 PM (#4337353)
To make matters more hilarious, Netanyahu actually is left-handed.
   51. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 02, 2013 at 08:28 PM (#4337367)
of course the religiously motivated leaders of the settler movement are also clinically insane.


And Avi Lieberman is one of them, and Bibi Netenyahu serves their interest in much the same way John Boehner has served the Teaper interests to date.
   52. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 09:48 PM (#4337410)
Alaska isn't going anywhere.


Alaska is connected to the U.S. by sea. I don't know of any case where a nation was divided into two slices with no land or sea connections between the two (ignoring a handful of tiny exclaves in border regions of places like Switzerland and Spain).

Danzig (Gdansk) was a historically German city prior to the demise of West Prussia, IIRC


I have relatives who lived in Danzig, and they weren't German. Nor were they Polish. They were Kashubs, who formed a political plurality in the region of the later Polish corridor. Of course, neither the Germans nor the Poles recognized the Kashubs as a real people, to the detriment of the Kashubs ... unless, of course, it was to their advantage (I read a German book written in the 1920s lamenting the injustice of having lost the territory of West Prussia, because it's population was 30% German and 40% Kashubish -- "who are Germans, of course!". Yeah, right...
   53. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 10:01 PM (#4337430)
And while we're at it -- Optimal Borders of Post WWI Poland.

   54. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: January 02, 2013 at 10:05 PM (#4337438)
Anyone else using the Chrome browser getting the occasional thread that's way too wide for the browser page?
   55. J.R. Wolf Posted: January 02, 2013 at 10:08 PM (#4337439)
i guess it's maybe just me but i think the above cartoon is unduly inflammatory

It's not just you.
   56. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 10:12 PM (#4337444)
And while we're at it -- Optimal Borders of Post WWI Poland.

Given they were a relatively sane country stuck between Germany and the Soviet Union, the optimal borders of Poland were "as big as freaking possible."
   57. J.R. Wolf Posted: January 02, 2013 at 10:16 PM (#4337447)
Here, for balance:

http://www.investors.com/image/RAMFclr-110311-unesco-IBD.jpg
   58. tshipman Posted: January 02, 2013 at 10:18 PM (#4337449)
I don't really want to get into a whole back and forth on Israel (which is normally pointless), but I don't get why the cartoon is offensive.

Netanyahu's actions make a two-state peace-process more difficult.

That is what the cartoon is saying. Is that somehow offensive?
   59. nycfan Posted: January 02, 2013 at 10:28 PM (#4337458)
"Just fyi, for those who haven't perused it lately, the Hamas Charter"

Not defending Hamas in any way, but its shocking how rarely its pointed out that the Likud charter explicitly rejects the creation of a Palestinian state. Of course, Netanyahu has said he supports one, but Khaled Meshaal has said he would agree to a peace based on '67 borders. Don't think I really believe either of them.
   60. KJOK Posted: January 02, 2013 at 11:05 PM (#4337505)
I don't really want to get into a whole back and forth on Israel (which is normally pointless), but I don't get why the cartoon is offensive.

Netanyahu's actions make a two-state peace-process more difficult.

That is what the cartoon is saying. Is that somehow offensive?


Yes, because the cartoon calls his actions 'an error'.

Of course it's no error on his part - it's a strategic choice, like throwing a waste pitch instead of a strike on an 0-2 count.
   61. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 11:15 PM (#4337511)
"Just fyi, for those who haven't perused it lately, the Hamas Charter"

Not defending Hamas in any way, but its shocking how rarely its pointed out that the Likud charter explicitly rejects the creation of a Palestinian state. Of course, Netanyahu has said he supports one, but Khaled Meshaal has said he would agree to a peace based on '67 borders. Don't think I really believe either of them.


No. At least not recently.

NYT, 12/8/12:

Speaking before tens of thousands of supporters to celebrate the 25th anniversary of the founding of Hamas, Mr. Meshal said the Jewish state would be wiped away through “resistance,” or military action. “The state will come from resistance, not negotiation,” he said. “Liberation first, then statehood.”

His voice rising to a shout, Mr. Meshal said: “Palestine is ours from the river to the sea and from the south to the north. There will be no concession on any inch of the land.” He vowed that all Palestinian refugees and their descendants would one day return to their original homes in what is now Israel.

“We will never recognize the legitimacy of the Israeli occupation, and therefore there is no legitimacy for Israel, no matter how long it will take,” he said. “We will free Jerusalem inch by inch, stone by stone. Israel has no right to be in Jerusalem.”


The governing Likud coalition clearly has minimal interest in advancing any form of Palestinian state, though. Go go Ramat Shlomo!
   62. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: January 02, 2013 at 11:24 PM (#4337515)

Yes, because the cartoon calls his actions 'an error'.

Of course it's no error on his part - it's a strategic choice, like throwing a waste pitch instead of a strike on an 0-2 count.


Not sure how, even if that's true, it makes the cartoon offensive.
   63. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: January 03, 2013 at 12:22 AM (#4337626)
I think the fact that the Arab Peace Initiative has gotten so little traction makes me think that there will be a war between the Israelis and the Arabs. The Arab League offered everything they could while saving face and that didn't get the Israelis to negotiate. The only way Israel gets significantly more in an agreement would be after a huge military victory.

Not defending Hamas in any way, but its shocking how rarely its pointed out that the Likud charter explicitly rejects the creation of a Palestinian state. Of course, Netanyahu has said he supports one, but Khaled Meshaal has said he would agree to a peace based on '67 borders. Don't think I really believe either of them.

Hamas has become more popular among Palestinians because they have lost faith in Fatah to further their cause. I think it's fair to say that Israel's historical dealings with Fatah have made many Palestinians believe that Fatah will never be able to achieve anything of importance as the ruling party.
   64. zenbitz Posted: January 03, 2013 at 01:16 AM (#4337710)
No, that area was German from the days of the Teutonic knights. Germany lost territory after WWI in that area


Well its all on how far back you go no innt? Since the teotonic knights were there crusading against Lithuanian pagans.
   65. Fancy Pants Handle doesn't need no water Posted: January 03, 2013 at 03:23 AM (#4337736)
Anyone else using the Chrome browser getting the occasional thread that's way too wide for the browser page?

It's not Chrome. It's the image at the top fixing the column with combined with the size of your screen, resolution, and browser zoom (people will get this problem at different column widths based on those factors). Usually it happens when people make liberal use of the code tag in the comments.

You can use ctrl and - to reduce the browser zoom level (ctrl and + to zoom back in), but this will reduce the size of the text as well.

Edit: If you have Adblock, you can right click on the image, and add a filter to block the image from displaying.
   66. BrianBrianson Posted: January 03, 2013 at 05:48 AM (#4337742)
b) It's even less politically feasible, but doesn't a three state solution (Israel/Gaza/West Bank) essentially codifying the current arrangement seem the most practical solution?


No, an independent Gaza is pretty hopeless - it remains more or less a refugee camp in that case, too many people, too little land, and too little to do with it. That's not as true of the West Bank, though I'm not really sure it's viable either. A three state solution (Israel/Egypt/Jordan - i.e., the 1948 - 1967 situation) is the most practical solution, but it's wildly unfeasible. As noted above, the only feasible solution is the continued slow push out of Palastinians, followed by waiting long enough for everyone to stop caring. Data from America/Canada/Australia suggests this begins after ~100 years, and is complete by ~400 years, but it's not clear that situation is totally applicable here. I don't know a better case, though.
   67. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 03, 2013 at 07:20 AM (#4337744)
too many people, too little land,
Want to compare it to, say, Singapore?
   68. BrianBrianson Posted: January 03, 2013 at 07:40 AM (#4337749)
Want to compare it to, say, Singapore?


If you think Singapore is a viable comparison to Gaza, I have some waterfront property on Baffin island to sell you for half what it costs in Miami.
   69. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 03, 2013 at 08:46 AM (#4337765)
Not sure how, even if that's true, it makes the cartoon offensive.


Some folks are offended if you suggest that Israel is even vaguely capable of doing anything wrong.
   70. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 03, 2013 at 08:50 AM (#4337768)
I aware of the larger goals of Bibi and Lieberman's coalition. It's not a terribly hard thing to suss out, David. I mean, you don't need a secret handshake or anything.
No, but you do need to read something besides the Nation.

of course the religiously motivated leaders of the settler movement are also clinically insane.

And Avi Lieberman is one of them, and Bibi Netenyahu serves their interest in much the same way John Boehner has served the Teaper interests to date.
See what I mean? This isn't in the same zip code as being right. Lieberman is not at all one of them. That's like saying that because the religious right was anti-communist, and Barry Goldwater was anti-communist, he must have been a member of the religious right. just because you think religious people are crazy and 'settlers' are crazy doesn't mean that they are the same people. Lieberman is a Soviet immigrant. That's an entirely different electoral group in Israel.

Most 'settlers' are not religious, most single-issue religious voters do not have the settlements as their single issue, and settlements and outposts are not the same thing.
   71. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 03, 2013 at 08:54 AM (#4337770)
No, but you do need to read something besides the Nation.


Wrong. Again. As usual.
   72. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 03, 2013 at 08:58 AM (#4337772)
Just because you think religious people are crazy and 'settlers' are crazy doesn't mean that they are the same people.


I didn't say they were the "same people." I said they had the same political goals. Avi Lieberman's goal is the elimination of Palestinians and any hope of a Palestinian state. Avi Lieberman's goal is "Greater Israel." The fact that he may, or may not be, a religious nutjob like the settler movement doesn't change the fact that he is aligned with those folks for political aims.

Lieberman is a Soviet immigrant. That's an entirely different electoral group in Israel.


I suppose I shouldn't be surprised when you split hairs like this, pretending that self-ID trumps voting behavior and policy goals. After all, you repeatedly claim to be something other than a right wing Republican yourself.
   73. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 03, 2013 at 09:01 AM (#4337775)
If you think Singapore is a viable comparison to Gaza, I have some waterfront property on Baffin island to sell you for half what it costs in Miami.
So you're saying that the problem with Gaza is that it's too cold?
   74. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 03, 2013 at 09:05 AM (#4337779)
So you're saying that the problem with Gaza is that it's too cold?


Is a nuclear armed bully currently blockading Singapore?
   75. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 03, 2013 at 09:15 AM (#4337783)
Is a nuclear armed bully currently blockading Singapore?
Is Singapore repeatedly attacking some other country it has vowed to destroy?
   76. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 03, 2013 at 09:18 AM (#4337784)
Is Singapore repeatedly attacking some other country it has vowed to destroy?


Slink away now that you've admitted that your comparison is stupid.
   77. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 03, 2013 at 09:38 AM (#4337794)
Slink away now that you've admitted that your comparison is stupid.
Your version of reality, as usual, is... interesting. Your original comment, of course, was completely irrelevant to the discussion. The blockade is contingent on the actions of Gaza's government, and is thus an utter red herring. But since that's all you knew about Gaza (from the Nation, as you admitted above), you decided to throw it in, for fun, so to inject yourself into a conversation with the grownups. The complaint about the viability of Gaza as an independent state was "too many people, too little land." I was pointing out that, in fact, countries with much worse in both categories are not just viable, but thriving.
   78. BrianBrianson Posted: January 03, 2013 at 09:48 AM (#4337796)
So you're saying that the problem with Gaza is that it's too cold?


No, that it has nothing from which to build. Singapore has numerous advantages, and was built up organically. Gaza really has no advantages, and was built by herding people to undesirable land. The Palastinians would probably be better off on Baffin Island, where there's at least money to be made from mining and fishing. Canada might go for it. Or they might not notice until it's too late.
   79. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 03, 2013 at 09:56 AM (#4337799)
Viable city-states or mini-states are exceptionally rare. Most survive through seedy arrangements as tax havens (or smuggling / money-laundering havens). A very few have the geographical and historical luck to be historic trading ports, surrounded by less-developed economies which can't out-compete them. Gaza has none of these advantanges, and quite a few disadvantages all its own. It was not created in order to be viable, it was created through the exigencies of greater power conflict between Egypt and Israel.
   80. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 03, 2013 at 10:34 AM (#4337815)
But since that's all you knew about Gaza (from the Nation, as you admitted above),


Over all these years, I never considered the possibility that you couldn't actually read. Interesting.
   81. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: January 03, 2013 at 10:56 AM (#4337826)
The idea that Gaza could exist as an independent mini-state is beyond laughable.
   82. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:09 AM (#4337829)
There is no possible just solution to the Palestinian sistuation as long as a sizeable and influential segment of the Arab/Muslim world supports the destruction of Israel.

I intensely dislike a lot of what Israel does (and the ultra-orthodox are complete nutters), but I can't honestly say that if I faced the kind of existential threat they do, I would act any better than the Israelis.
   83. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:14 AM (#4337832)
But since that's all you knew about Gaza (from the Nation, as you admitted above),

Over all these years, I never considered the possibility that you couldn't actually read. Interesting.


well your answer was ambiguous-
he said,

No, but you do need to read something besides the Nation.

you said,

Wrong. Again. As usual.


Your answer could mean,
No, I don't even read the Nation, or
No, I read others things besides the Nation, or
No, I do not need to read anything besides the Nation

Dave, being a lawyer, noticed the ambiguity and applied the principal of contra proferentem, which basically means that if someone drafts an ambiguous statement you can construe it against that person so long as your alternative construction is reasonable.
   84. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:21 AM (#4337842)
There are a couple of solutions: (a) Israel elects a sensible government that says screw the settlers, we're pulling all of our resources out of the West Bank and letting the Palestinians have their state. If you settlers want to move back to Israel, we'll help with the relocation. If you want to stay in Palestine, feel free. And Palestine, if you don't stamp out the terrorists, we're going to retaliate. (b) A charismatic leader emerges among the Palestianians who convinces them the engage in non-violent resistance through strikes, marches, etc.

Of course, I'm more likely to marry Eva Mendes than see either of those things happen.
   85. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:24 AM (#4337846)
There are a couple of solutions: (a) Israel elects a sensible government that says screw the settlers, we're pulling all of our resources out of the West Bank and letting the Palestinians have their state. If you settlers want to move back to Israel, we'll help with the relocation. If you want to stay in Palestine, feel free. And Palestine, if you don't stamp out the terrorists, we're going to retaliate. (b) A charismatic leader emerges among the Palestianians who convinces them the engage in non-violent resistance through strikes, marches, etc.

Of course, I'm more likely to marry Eva Mendes than see either of those things happen.


An easier solution would be for Jordan to accept the Palestinians as citizens in exchange for much of the West Bank, and probably a large financial settlement from the UN.

Then you'd have a real gov't that would have a chance of stamping out terrorism, and a gov't that would actually be afraid of Israeli retaliation.
   86. BrianBrianson Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:30 AM (#4337853)
I don't see any reason to believe unilateral disengagement from the West Bank would work any better than it has in Gaza.
   87. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:30 AM (#4337855)
That could work too, but what do you mean by "in exchange for much of the West Bank"? How much control would Jordan have?
   88. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:32 AM (#4337858)
That could work too, but what do you mean by "in exchange for much of the West Bank"? How much control would Jordan have?

Total. It would become part of Jordan.

Edit: another good feature to make a workable settlement would be for Jordan to establish some kind of "sanctuary region" for Arab Christians, who are being persecuted and driven out of the Arab world. It would give the Hashemite monarchy another potential support base to counter the Palestinian and Islamist blocks, and would help garner world support for Jordan.
   89. BrianBrianson Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:36 AM (#4337864)
Total. It would become part of Jordan.


If you excluded East Jerusalem, I suspect you could convince most Israelis to go for it, and force out the settlers. Without that ... maybe not.
   90. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:36 AM (#4337866)
Oh, never mind. I was misreading your post.
   91. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:52 AM (#4337882)
There is no possible just solution to the Palestinian sistuation as long as a sizeable and influential segment of the Arab/Muslim world supports the destruction of Israel.


There is no possible just solution to the Palestinian situation as long as a sizeable and influential segment of the Jewish/Israeli world supports the destruction of Palestine.
   92. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:53 AM (#4337884)
If you excluded East Jerusalem, I suspect you could convince most Israelis to go for it, and force out the settlers. Without that ... maybe not.

You also don't have to force all the settlers out. It doesn't have to be a exact transfer of the currently defined West Bank. You want to give Israel and Jordan a defensible reasonable frontier.
   93. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:53 AM (#4337885)
I intensely dislike a lot of what Israel does (and the ultra-orthodox are complete nutters), but I can't honestly say that if I faced the kind of existential threat they do, I would act any better than the Israelis.


I intensely dislike a lot of what Hamas does (and the ultra-orthodox are complete nutters), but I can't honestly say that if I faced the kind of existential threat they do, I would not act better than the Palestinians.
   94. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:56 AM (#4337887)
Dave, being a lawyer, noticed the ambiguity and applied the principal of contra proferentem, which basically means that if someone drafts an ambiguous statement you can construe it against that person so long as your alternative construction is reasonable.


I am familiar with David's common tactics to wrapping himself in legalistic parsing to avoid honest debate. It's not a new trick for him. No one with a passing familiarity with me would have honestly misread my statement above. David is parsing, because lawyers gotta hide behind something to prevent folks from noticing their lack of intellectual robes.
   95. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:57 AM (#4337889)
If you excluded East Jerusalem, I suspect you could convince most Israelis to go for it, and force out the settlers.


Sure, if you cede the entire fight, I'm sure most Israelis would sign up for that.
   96. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 03, 2013 at 11:59 AM (#4337892)
There is no possible just solution to the Palestinian situation as long as a sizeable and influential segment of the Jewish/Israeli world supports the destruction of Palestine.

Except no sizeable or influential segment of the Israeli population supports driving Arabs out of the region, or even the West Bank. The radical Arab/Islamists have a genocidal agenda that the Israeli's lack.
   97. BrianBrianson Posted: January 03, 2013 at 12:05 PM (#4337896)
You also don't have to force all the settlers out. It doesn't have to be a exact transfer of the currently defined West Bank. You want to give Israel and Jordan a defensible reasonable frontier.


I suppose I'd be perfectly happy to tell them "Feel free to leave, or feel free to become Jordanians."

Sure, if you cede the entire fight, I'm sure most Israelis would sign up for that.


I see no reasonable interpretation under which East Jerusalem is the entire fight. A solution that's far better for the Palastinians than the status quo is certainly not them giving away everything.
   98. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 03, 2013 at 12:08 PM (#4337899)
Except no sizeable or influential segment of the Israeli population supports driving Arabs out of the region, or even the West Bank.


You mean except the Settler movement, which runs the entire right wing policy goal setting process, which is strongly supported by the majority government of Israel, from Lieberman through Netenyahu?
   99. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 03, 2013 at 12:09 PM (#4337901)
I see no reasonable interpretation under which East Jerusalem is the entire fight.


Do you honestly expect the Palestinians to cede their claim to Jerusalem as a shared capitol?
   100. Russlan is fond of Dillon Gee Posted: January 03, 2013 at 12:14 PM (#4337905)
I see no reasonable interpretation under which East Jerusalem is the entire fight. A solution that's far better for the Palastinians than the status quo is certainly not them giving away everything.

Anything that doesn't give the Palestinians/Arabs control of the Al-Aqsa Mosque is a non-starter.
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