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Wednesday, January 02, 2013

OTP - Jan 2013: Jewish Journal:E1: An error in baseball and Mideast politics

Tripon Posted: January 02, 2013 at 02:48 PM | 2805 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: ot, politics

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   1801. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 10:47 AM (#4351694)
That's what I find really disconnecting here. It's like the guy was out playing the role of anarchist internet activist going against the man, but then completely freaked his #### when it turned out that the man was actually powerful and intent on maintaining the status quo of his power and authority in the world.


I think part of the difference there is that MLK wasn't clinically depressed.
   1802. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 21, 2013 at 10:53 AM (#4351698)
It's part of the unavoidable essence of adversarial proceedings that neither party will tend to negotiate with itself. Both sides will take extreme positions at the outset. Indeed, it's done here in argument with practically every post.


I'm involved in civil litigation, and every now and then a businessman unfamiliar with how lawyers negotiate, will get honestly pissed off and walk out the door without bothering to counter an opening offer (or counteroffer) feeling either that the two sides are simply too far apart or that the other side is not negotiating in good faith.

Sometimes you are wiling to initially offer "X" and you tell the other side's atty that, and he'll say "I can't relay that, he won't counter, he'll walk"
and you say, "It's not our last/highest final offer"
he'll say, "I know that, but it's still too low for me to work off of, he' already doesn't think your client is negotiating in good faith, why do you think WE'RE (us lawyers) are here?"

and then you start wondering if the other lawyer is bluffing or not.

I usually represent Banks and Insurers, contrary to what the general public thinks, most time, at least initially, they will offer better terms if you don't have a lawyers than if you do- a good part of that is familiarity with how lawyers negotiate- they know lawyers tend to overshoot, so they will preemptively counter that...
   1803. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: January 21, 2013 at 11:08 AM (#4351700)
   1804. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 21, 2013 at 11:15 AM (#4351708)
There are countries that really really really need some kind of libertarian intellectual tradition, Russia is one of them.

Virtually the entire Islamic world as well...
   1805. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: January 21, 2013 at 11:35 AM (#4351717)
There are countries that really really really need some kind of libertarian intellectual tradition, Russia is one of them.


Truthfully, I'd much prefer not being sent off to Iran, thank you.
   1806. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 12:12 PM (#4351735)

More details are emerging about Nehemiah Griego, the 15-year-old suspected gunman accused of shooting his father, mother, and three siblings to death with an AR-15 — and they add up to a gruesome picture of a teenager with a van packed with guns and a plan to shoot up his local Walmart in New Mexico. Here's what we've learned since the shooting early on Saturday:

Police have released the names of the victims:

Greg Griego 51, a former pastor with Calvary Church in Albuquerque, his wife Sara Greigo 40, and 9-year-old Zephania Griego, 5-year-old Jael Griego, and 2-year-old Angelina Griego.
Nehemiah Griego, Greg and Sarah's home-schooled son, shot his mother and his brothers in their beds multiple times at around 1 a.m. Saturday and then waited for his father, police said. There were 10 Griego children, but only the youngest were home on Friday night.

"[A]uthorities believe Nehemiah then put several loaded weapons, including the assault rifle, in the family van with the plan to drive to the nearest Walmart, gun down more people and eventually die in a shootout with police," report The Albuquerque Journal's Jeff Proctor and Patrick Lohmann. The Journal also reports that Griego called a friend before carrying out the rest of his plan, and that the friend got Griego to meet him at the church where Griego's father was a pastor.

The two guns used in the shooting — an AR-15 assault rifle and a .22 caliber pistol — seem to have belonged to Griego's parents. Griego "had a minor disagreement with his mother on Friday night," The Journal reports, adding:

Authorities believe Nehemiah’s parents owned the guns. The weapons had been stored in a closet, not in a gun safe. They also believe Nehemiah may have had violent fantasies including killing and murder-suicide scenarios for much of his life.

And don't blame video games, because Griego was not allowed to play them. Again, from Proctor and Lohmann's Journal reporting:

Another neighbor said Nehemiah wanted to be a soldier. Although he always wore Army clothing and camouflage, Nehemiah wasn’t allowed to play violent video games, the neighbor said, since the boy’s parents didn’t allow anything “dirty or violent” and limited TV watching.
   1807. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:09 PM (#4351771)
president hitting all his policy points in his speech
   1808. Shredder Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:13 PM (#4351777)
Nehemiah Griego
I hadn't heard this story, so I googled his name. One of the top links goes to the freeper thread about this shooting. I'm sure you'd all be surprised to learn that in an incident involving five dead people and a likely mentally ill 15 year old, the real victims are the people who post on Free Republic.
   1809. Mefisto Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:20 PM (#4351783)
Second inaugural was MUCH better than his first.
   1810. Fancy Pants Handle doesn't need no water Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:25 PM (#4351789)
And don't blame video games, because Griego was not allowed to play them. Again, from Proctor and Lohmann's Journal reporting:

Another neighbor said Nehemiah wanted to be a soldier. Although he always wore Army clothing and camouflage, Nehemiah wasn’t allowed to play violent video games, the neighbor said, since the boy’s parents didn’t allow anything “dirty or violent” and limited TV watching.

Am acquaintance of mine once told me that one of the many studies that failed to find a link between video games and shootings found that the only link they could come up with was that the shooters were predominantly devout Christians. Never saw the study myself, so take it for what it's worth. This was a few years ago, so before any of the recent shootings, but they do seem to be falling into the same pattern.
   1811. zonk Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:34 PM (#4351793)
Wow... that was definitely a "I'm from the Democratic wing of the Democratic party" type inaugural.

I always figured, going back to 2007/2008 -- Obama was a centrist/pragmatist who could come off as a true liberal when he had to. I still think he's a lot more center than he is left, but that was most definitely a left-center (not center-left) inaugural.

Still, that's what he ran as, it's what the 'base' that reelected him has wanted for 4 years, and it's been one of the primary complaints Democratic opposition has had about him (that he's too ready to 'compromise', that he lacks sufficiently ironclad progressive principles, etc).

I personally think he's trying to pivot here into 'legacy mode'... I think the genius of Reagan is that, despite running during the 80 primary as a conservative -- by GE and by the time he assumed office, he quite masterfully was able to cloak his conservative principles as less of an 'ideological' agenda -- but more of a mainstream, non-ideological vision of just "good government"... In effect, I think he really DID make the general public view the country as being 'center-right', as in, that's where the national fulcrum should rest. There were plenty of policy changes to support that -- but ultimately, he re-positioned the fulcrum.

I believe very much that Obama sounds like he's looking to do the same -- re-position that national fulcrum... there's a ton in this speech to support that -- gay rights, defense of the very concept of entitlement programs, etc.

As a liberal, I say "bully!". As a pragmatic observer, I say "good luck with that;-))
   1812. Steve Treder Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:39 PM (#4351799)
As a liberal, I say "bully!". As a pragmatic observer, I say "good luck with that;-))

Me too, but the only way to possibly move that fulcrum is to try.
   1813. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:41 PM (#4351801)
fox guys going beserko at speech

   1814. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:43 PM (#4351803)
senator reid looks awful. he acts older than president carter. is he unwell???
   1815. formerly dp Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:44 PM (#4351804)
fox guys going beserko at speech
Here's a fun game: what would he have had to say for them to not go beserko?
   1816. Morty Causa Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:45 PM (#4351805)
I agree that Reagan moved the entire spectrum to the right. When people go off on those Democrats, I want to point out that the Democratic party is really just Republican lite. The DP has to seriously reinvent itself. It's hold, such as it is, is contingent, and tenuous and temporary, if it stays as it is. I really don't like it, but I absolutely loathe the face of the Republican Party.
   1817. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:47 PM (#4351806)
fox guys going beserko at speech


I'm sure they're using facts and quoting the President verbatim.
   1818. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:47 PM (#4351807)
my wife tells me chis mathews compared this to president lincoln's second inaugural

that's an absurd comparison
   1819. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:49 PM (#4351808)
senator reid looks awful. he acts older than president carter. is he unwell???


He used to be a boxer, when he was young. Those guys don't usually age like fine wine.
   1820. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:49 PM (#4351810)
quoting brit hume:

utterly bereft of anything that reaches out to the opposition (meaning the president reaching out to the gop)

   1821. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:50 PM (#4351812)
that's an absurd comparison


It's reasonable, in the sense that any two things can be compared to each other.
   1822. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:50 PM (#4351813)
my wife tells me chis mathews compared this to president lincoln's second inaugural

that's an absurd comparison


This is a creative way of calling your wife old.
   1823. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:51 PM (#4351814)
da

well, she is 11 days older than me and i am old so....

but actually, i don't get your joke

sorry
   1824. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:53 PM (#4351815)
but actually, i don't get your joke

sorry


Chris Matthews: This was comparable to Lincoln's 2nd inaugural.

Mrs. HW: That's absurd. I know, I was there.
   1825. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:55 PM (#4351817)
da

well, i called it an absurd comparison

but ok
   1826. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 01:57 PM (#4351818)
wow, chuck todd has porked out

i checked in on msnbc to hear them be gleeful and todd looks awful
   1827. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:01 PM (#4351819)
Here's a fun game: what would he have had to say for them to not go beserko?
"i intend to work with congress to put armed guards in every school in america"
   1828. zonk Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:01 PM (#4351821)
my wife tells me chis mathews compared this to president lincoln's second inaugural

that's an absurd comparison


Of course -

Lincoln's second inaugural did have to start healing a nation that wasn't just having an ideological debate -- but had actively been killing more than half a million of its fellow citizens for 4 years... To "preserve the union" -- Lincoln had to set the tone that the Union was being restored, not a renegade portion of it subjugated (even if, to some extent, that's what had to and to some extent, did, happen). He had to restore the nation - and even then, that would take time... there's a good historical case to be made that it didn't finally come to pass until the Spanish-American war... that that was the point when, from coast to coast, we were all finally "Americans" again.

Whatever ideological pervades our times -- I would hope we can ALL recognize the difference between 600k dead on battlefields and various blogs and networks calling 'the other side' names.

FWIW - and yeah, I'm partisan - we have heard Boehner, McConnell, et al saying that Obama "needs to lead"... well... OK -- this speech was him doing exactly that. They just don't agree with the direction and philosophy of where he's leading. But - he won reelection (and won it on essentially the same terms of this speech), he's the President, and "leading" can't be wholly telling his own party and base to pipe down.

   1829. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:04 PM (#4351823)
"i intend to work with congress to put armed guards in every school in america"


"by using the savings garned from slashing federal expenditure on public broadcasting, planned parenthood, the EPA and the ATF."
   1830. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:05 PM (#4351824)
there's a good historical case to be made that it didn't finally come to pass until the Spanish-American war... that that was the point when, from coast to coast, we were all finally "Americans" again.


Except the blacks, Irish, and Chinese.
   1831. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:07 PM (#4351825)
president carter clearly loving seeing everyone

his wife, not so much
   1832. Morty Causa Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:08 PM (#4351826)
   1833. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:08 PM (#4351827)
charles krauthammer saying the president just declared war on conservatives.

i think charles is about 4 years behind the curve
   1834. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:08 PM (#4351828)
"i intend to work with congress to put armed guards in every school in america"

"by using the savings garned from defunding federal expenditure on public broadcasting, planned parenthood, the EPA and the ATF."


Naaah, the only thing they'd accept would be his resignation and admission that ACORN had stolen the election for him and Dems in the Senate
   1835. formerly dp Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:10 PM (#4351829)
"i intend to work with congress to put armed guards NRA volunteers in every school in america"


I think that's what it would take to make them happy.
   1836. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:18 PM (#4351830)
president clinton looking great and the sec of state looking, well, matronly

if his embers are still burning you cna guess why interns are so, ahem, helpful to him

   1837. zonk Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:19 PM (#4351832)
charles krauthammer saying the president just declared war on conservatives.

i think charles is about 4 years behind the curve


I guess I'd say that he tried playing it nice... 'Grand bargains' in which he, much to Democratic chagrin, did put left/progressive sacred cows on the table, etc... and it really got him nowhere and got him nothing except, well, baseline things the nation needed -- i.e., the original sequester that got conservatives (as Boehner said) "98% of what he wanted"... Obama "got" the debt ceiling increase, which was hardly an ideological desire of any Democrat - merely a sort of baseline thing that any President needs because, well, it's disastrous to undertake a "default by choice". I suppose he also got a payroll tax cut - which is most definitely a fine, targeted stimulus towards low and middle income folks - but it's also a tax cut and also a revenue cut against a dearly held Democratic-loved entitlement.

We can say it's cynical - Obama's doing this now because he's got more election campaigns to worry about... we can take the view of progressives - many of whom would say that Obama has "finally learned his lesson, you can't compromise with these guys"...

I just think it's a matter of Obama telling the Krauthammers of the world, "Hey, guess what... as you've been pointing out - I'm not a conservative."

Like I said above - the GOP should have been careful what it was asking for over the last month when they kept saying "Obama needs to 'lead'" -- well, now he's leading... did they really expect he would "lead" where they wanted to be led?
   1838. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:20 PM (#4351834)
zonk

the president has maybe six months to get things moving before 2014 starts getting in the way

good luck to him
   1839. tshipman Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:20 PM (#4351837)
charles krauthammer saying the president just declared war on conservatives.

i think charles is about 4 years behind the curve


These sort of statements are silly. Obama has declared war on conservatives by trying to pass the Heritage Foundation's healthcare plan and refusing to allow any of the Bush administration who tortured people to stand trial.


***

I guess I don't get the chatter about the inaugural. I thought it was a pretty decent speech. I liked the point about takers/vs. taking risks, because I think that's a good argument and the structure was articulated well.
   1840. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:21 PM (#4351838)
mercifully brief invocation at luncheon
   1841. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:22 PM (#4351839)
tship

i will stop posting about the inauguration if it's bothersome

i have to rest after seeing the doc all morning so was working to pass the time
   1842. Mess with the Meat, you get the Wad! Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:26 PM (#4351842)
Harveys you need to live blog more on this site. Its entertaining to hear what you think about these things
   1843. tshipman Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:29 PM (#4351843)
i will stop posting about the inauguration if it's bothersome

i have to rest after seeing the doc all morning so was working to pass the time


I don't mind you posting opinions on the inaugural. I agree that the stuff about Lincoln was silly. I mind the rhetoric that implied that Obama had somehow declared war on conservatives. If you're going to make a statement like that, you could at least back it up with an argument rather than a flat assertion. I think it's sort of overblown, but whatevs.

(side note: I realized that your statement could also be taken as a joke at Krauthammer's expense, if so, I apologize for misunderstanding.)
   1844. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:31 PM (#4351846)
tship

you need to relax sport. i was just sharing a remark by a fox commentator and you want some long andy like screed



   1845. zonk Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:32 PM (#4351847)
zonk

the president has maybe six months to get things moving before 2014 starts getting in the way

good luck to him


Thing is, though -- he's a bit differently situated than past President.

That is to say - his electoral strength comes more so than almost any other Democrat from urban strongholds. All those are already solid D seats.

I suspect he doesn't have Clinton's suburban strength...

2014 will 'get in the way' for Congress -- but it's clear to me that Obama will really have much of a role.

I suspect a lot depends on whether his approval stays in the mid-50s (or goes higher or lower) - and that, I think will be wholly a function of the economy. If 2013 improves upon 2012, then I suspect higher. If 2013 looks more like 2011, then lower. If 2013 is basically 2012, I think he probably stays about where he is.
   1846. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:34 PM (#4351848)
I think that's what it would take to make them happy.


They would easily find a way to claim this is a head fake.
   1847. tshipman Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:35 PM (#4351849)
you need to relax sport. i was just sharing a remark by a fox commentator and you want some long andy like screed


"Obama declared war on conservatives" is a stupid statement, so I referred to it as one.
   1848. Mefisto Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:40 PM (#4351856)
i think charles is about 4 years behind the curve


I think Charles forgot who fired on Fort Sumter.
   1849. McCoy Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:41 PM (#4351858)
Hell of a weekend in DC. I think sleep took up about 25% of my time while work took up the rest. Never seen bumper to bumper traffic at 4am anywhere besides in NYC so that was a first for me. At times it looked like the ratio of security forces to normal citizens was 1:1.
   1850. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:41 PM (#4351859)
Interesting interview here. It is probably within our current technological capability to clone a Neanderthal. It will almost certainly be within our capability in a couple of decades. Ought we to do it?
   1851. Tripon Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:50 PM (#4351861)
Interesting interview here. It is probably within our current technological capability to clone a Neanderthal. It will almost certainly be within our capability in a couple of decades. Ought we to do it?


Only relevant question. Are Neanderthal women hot?
   1852. Morty Causa Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:55 PM (#4351862)
Sufficiently hot. Or maybe not, since they went extinct.

Church also says it can't be just one. There should be a "cohort." It might even develop into a race of them.
   1853. zonk Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:58 PM (#4351864)
I believe Futurama already answered the Neanderthal question...

I say no, because 1)I don't find prominent brows attractive, and 2) I imagine getting stomped on by their war mammoths will hurt.
   1854. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:00 PM (#4351865)
It's not the fact that he was charged that I find disturbing -- he appears to have been guilty of something -- it's the zealousness and overcharging of the prosecution in this case that's the problem.


We're in agreement here, with the caveat that I am in no way whatsoever surprised that entrenched power in the world will respond with asymmetrical force to protect and extend their power in the world, even when the power at hand seems petty and secondary at best to outside observers.
   1855. Morty Causa Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:01 PM (#4351867)
   1856. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:01 PM (#4351868)
Just watched the video of the inaugural speech. Great laundry list of things any sane person would like to see accomplished, but I doubt that a week from now I'll remember what he said.

As for that "war on conservatives" BS, today's "conservatives"** simply live to be offended by anything and everything that Obama does, and there's absolutely nothing he can say or do that will ever get them off his back. It's probably going to take at least 12 more years out of the White House for them to get the message.

**the Harveys of the conservative world excluded
   1857. Tripon Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:02 PM (#4351870)
1852. Morty Causa Posted: January 21, 2013 at 02:55 PM (#4351862)
Sufficiently hot. Or maybe not, since they went extinct.


You can make a decent argument that a portion of modern humans mated with with some Neanderthals and basically 'bred' them out. Inter-species reproduction isn't unheard of. No reason to think modern humans are above it.
   1858. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:04 PM (#4351872)
#1782 Nothing unusual about activists not wanting to pay the price of civil disobedience. King is not the norm.


Acknowledged. But I'd phrase that more harshly than you. Most "activists" in the world are dillitentes and trust fund babies playing at class resentment while mommy and daddy foot the bills from the bougie suburbs.
   1859. Tripon Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:06 PM (#4351874)

As for that "war on conservatives" BS, today's "conservatives"** simply live to be offended by anything and everything that Obama does, and there's absolutely nothing he can say or do that will ever get them off his back.


If a republican like Christie or even Jindal gets elected in 2016, I can very much see this current strain of conservative become even more frustrated since I get the sense that people who define themselves as 'Tea Partiers' and the like aren't looking to get answers and services from a well running and efficient government. They're just looking to starve the beast, and and whatever faults Christie or Jindal have, they realize that there's a role for Government and whatever 'intrusions' that might entail.
   1860. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:07 PM (#4351876)
Truthfully, I'd much prefer not being sent off to Iran, thank you.


You'd probably want to avoid either, though admittedly you could blend and pretend better in the Caucus regions.
   1861. Morty Causa Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:08 PM (#4351878)
1856:

And the perfect examples you can point to as presaging your predication are Bill Clinton, Hilary Clinton, and Al Gore.

1857:

That's true. And not only has genetics confirmed it, but so do certain political types every ####### day.
   1862. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:11 PM (#4351882)
Wow... that was definitely a "I'm from the Democratic wing of the Democratic party" type inaugural.

I always figured, going back to 2007/2008 -- Obama was a centrist/pragmatist who could come off as a true liberal when he had to. I still think he's a lot more center than he is left, but that was most definitely a left-center (not center-left) inaugural.


I strongly expect Obama to embrace more of a standard liberal agenda in the second term, rather than working as a Bush I clone in the first. Knowing you're never going to have to run for another office again in your life is liberating.
   1863. Morty Causa Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:12 PM (#4351884)
whatever faults Christie or Jindal have, they realize that there's a role for Government and whatever 'intrusions' that might entail.


Have you been keeping up with what Jindal has been doing?
   1864. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:13 PM (#4351885)
Most "activists" in the world are dillitentes and trust fund babies playing at class resentment while mommy and daddy foot the bills from the bougie suburbs.


Boy, there are more trust fund babies than I thought.
   1865. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:15 PM (#4351887)


I strongly expect Obama to embrace more of a standard liberal agenda in the second term, rather than working as a Bush I clone in the first. Knowing you're never going to have to run for another office again in your life is liberating.


While I share your sentiment and your reasoning, Obama is a very long-run thinker. If he does shift to the left this term, there are two big possibilities:

a) He completes his turn as the Reagan of the left, moving the national discourse towards politics more like his own (I think this is what is happening right now.) This is doubly true if the economic recovery continues/happens on course over the next few years.

b) The economy fails to recover, Obama's agenda is largely unfinished, and his second term is remembered like George W. Bush's: a failed attempt at governing closer to the party base rather than the national center.

EDIT: Post 1865! How very Lincoln!
   1866. Tripon Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:16 PM (#4351888)

Have you been keeping up with what Jindal has been doing?


Even trying to promote creationism is a sign of wanting government in our lives. =P Considering that Ray Negin just got indicted for corruption last week, I'd take a little crazy and fully honest than another in a long line of crooks that pretend to speak my 'language'.

But then again, I voted for the Arnold in the recall and in 2006. A big part of that was anger at Grey Davis for incompetence, and in 2006 they ran a weak challenger.
   1867. Morty Causa Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:22 PM (#4351889)
Please keep current. Jindal:

Medicaid rejection?

Charity hospital closings?

Vouchers for private/parochial schools?

Support for Creationism, generally and in public schools.

Retrogressive tax plans?

No more Medicaid funded end-of-life hospice care?

Although, from my perspective, that might be good if he runs as the presidential nominee.
   1868. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:24 PM (#4351890)
a) He completes his turn as the Reagan of the left, moving the national discourse towards politics more like his own (I think this is what is happening right now.) This is doubly true if the economic recovery continues/happens on course over the next few years.

b) The economy fails to recover, Obama's agenda is largely unfinished, and his second term is remembered like George W. Bush's: a failed attempt at governing closer to the party base rather than the national center.


This is his current political tightrope, nicely summarized. The hue and cry from the right wings today, and in general, is little more than petulant whining about the fact that they're losing the long game. It's pretty much identical to the left during Reagan's tenure.
   1869. formerly dp Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:25 PM (#4351891)
Most "activists" in the world are dillitentes and trust fund babies playing at class resentment while mommy and daddy foot the bills from the bougie suburbs.
That broad brush is doing you no favors here. How do these statements apply to Swartz? Why would his parents' financial status call into question the legitimacy of his beliefs and the efficacy of his actions? In terms of "mommy and daddy footing the bills"-- this is someone who could have out-earned most people on this board by age 20. I also think it's inaccurate to describe Swartz as an aspiring or self-identifying anarchist-- that's not the ideology behind the open-source or open-access movements. There may be some kinship there in terms of methods and ethos, but the motivating aim is to alter the various systems of rules that govern the flow of information. They don't want to destroy it-- the web doesn't work without rules and standards.
   1870. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:29 PM (#4351893)
Boy, there are more trust fund babies than I thought.


Okay, fair enough. I should have said "in America" rather than "in the world."

That broad brush is doing you no favors here. How do these statements apply to Swartz? Why would his parents' financial status call into question the legitimacy of his beliefs and the efficacy of his actions? In terms of "mommy and daddy footing the bills"-- this is someone who could have out-earned most people on this board by age 20. I also think it's inaccurate to describe Swartz as an aspiring or self-identifying anarchist-- that's not the ideology behind the open-source or open-access movements. There may be some kinship there in terms of methods and ethos, but the motivating aim is to alter the various systems of rules that govern the flow of information. They don't want to destroy it-- the web doesn't work without rules and standards.


They apparently want many things. And when they have to bleed for them, they piss themselves and run away.
   1871. formerly dp Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:39 PM (#4351903)
They apparently want many things. And when they have to bleed for them, they piss themselves and run away.
I ran that through Google Translate, and it came up with: "I don't know what the #### I'm talking about right now, but I won't let that stop me from expressing a full-throated opinion on the subject".

With less snark: Swartz, an activist with depression issues, killed himself in the face of a prison sentence. That in no way disqualifies the actions or motives of other activists in the movement.
   1872. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:40 PM (#4351904)
And when they have to bleed for them, they piss themselves and run away.


Which part of "clinically depressed" are you not getting?

He had been having suicidal thoughts for a long, long time, and would've still had them even if he hadn't been an activist.
   1873. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:41 PM (#4351906)
Which part of "clinically depressed" are you not getting?


Meh. Have a drink, get laid and move the #### on, Potsie.
   1874. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:52 PM (#4351907)
With less snark: Swartz, an activist with depression issues, killed himself in the face of a prison sentence. That in no way disqualifies the actions or motives of other activists in the movement.


1. I haven't questioned or attempted to disqualify his actions or even his motives. I've questioned his dedication to the cause.

2. If Swartz killed himself because he was depressive, then there's a lot of piling on of blame against the (admittedly over the top) prosecutors that needs to be rescinded. If he was destined to off himself, then the prosecutors are not to blame for his death.
   1875. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:53 PM (#4351908)
Meh. Have a drink, get laid and move the #### on, Potsie.


Spoken like a man who knows absolutely ####### nothing about depression.

Watch this, for starters.
   1876. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:54 PM (#4351911)
Most "activists" in the world are dillitentes and trust fund babies playing at class resentment while mommy and daddy foot the bills from the bougie suburbs.

That may be the most perfect tar baby post of all time. It has nothing to do with reality, but then that wasn't its intent.
   1877. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:55 PM (#4351912)
If Swartz killed himself because he was depressive, then there's a lot of piling on of blame against the (admittedly over the top) prosecutors that needs to be rescinded.


The trial was an environmental stress aggravating a pre-existing condition, like taking a guy with bad lungs and locking him in a building full of asbestos. As such, they're still morally culpable.
   1878. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:55 PM (#4351913)
the first lady looks really bored

   1879. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:56 PM (#4351915)
The trial was an environmental stress aggravating a pre-existing condition, like taking a guy with bad lungs and locking him in a building full of asbestos. As such, they're still culpable.


Then everyone is culpable of anything. Lock up sodas.
   1880. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:58 PM (#4351917)
As such, they're still morally culpable.

if so then the number of people in the world with clean hands in life by your standards is about 3

   1881. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 03:58 PM (#4351919)
Then everyone is culpable of anything.


Seriously, watch the list I posted in #1875. You're being just as embarrassingly clueless on this as Joe is on, well, basically everything.
   1882. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:02 PM (#4351922)
if so then the number of people in the world with clean hands in life by your standards is about 3


Harvey, I'm not talking about them forgetting to put the pickles on his hamburger and giving him a sad for five minutes. They were trying to unfairly throw him in jail for the majority of his adult life. It's like deliberately forcing an alcoholic to drink.
   1883. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:04 PM (#4351925)
vlad

no they were not. they were pushing him to admit culpability and then a plea bargain would have been agreed to. if his lawyer didn't explain that to him and his family his lawyer should be disbarred.

i agree that the prosecutors were likely overzealous. but they were working to get a conviction, not put the guy behind bars forever.
   1884. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4351926)
I am not watching an hour long academic lecture on depression. Sum up. The world made bullet lists for a reason.
   1885. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:06 PM (#4351927)
they were pushing him to admit culpability and then a plea bargain would have been agreed to. if his lawyer didn't explain that to him and his family his lawyer should be disbarred.


Which would be perfectly fine except, again, clinical depression. People with that condition are simply not capable of being rational about environmental stressors. No matter how carefully or exhaustively you explain, they aren't going to believe it.

Like Sam, I would recommend that you watch the link in #1875.
   1886. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:06 PM (#4351928)
and i challenge the notion that anything was 'unfair'

it's a broadly worded law but by any measure the guy broke it. and knew it.

it was if he was surprised that anyone would hold him accountable for publicly spitting in the face of the law.

and i am well aware of depressioon. it is a longstanding malady amongst the wallbangers.

and i do not write that in flip manner. dead serious
   1887. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:07 PM (#4351930)
"Let me explain. No, there is no time. Let me sum up."
   1888. DA Baracus is a "bloodthirsty fan of Atlanta." Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:09 PM (#4351932)
I am not watching an hour long academic lecture on depression. Sum up.


A nice night out with a happy ending doesn't fix clinical depression.
   1889. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:09 PM (#4351933)
They were trying to unfairly throw him in jail for the majority of his adult life.


"Unfairly" is doing a lot of work in that sentence. The prosecutors of the law, as hired by the state, were leveraging the law of the state to protect and preserve the status quo process of the state, against someone who intentionally broke the law of the state.

If you want to have a conversation about how amoral it is to have a state apparatus set up where this sort of leverage playing games is part and parcel to the "justice system" I'll be your best friend. But if you want to claim "unfair" action? I'm not so sure.

The calls against the Falcons in the 4th quarter yesterday were stupid and wrong. They were by the rule book, more or less, but taht simply points out the stupidity inherent in the rule book. This is similar. Swartz broke the law. The law then came down upon him with a self righteous fury that was almost certainly stupid and wrong, but well within the legal playbook of the United States of America's "justice system."

Swartz should have known the risks going in. If you want to be internet martyr, suck it up and take the body blows.
   1890. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:09 PM (#4351935)
People with that condition are simply not capable of being rational about environmental stressors. No matter how carefully or exhaustively you explain, they aren't going to believe it

the law can show some consideration but it cannot just ignore enforcing the law.

and i have read all the literature. thanks.

   1891. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4351936)
vlad

what you are asking is that the law provide a long-term backdoor for anyone seeking to avoid punishment.

the public won't support that nor should it
   1892. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4351938)
A nice night out with a happy ending doesn't fix it


Well then, we should probably not prosecute any crimes against anyone making the pouty face then.
   1893. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:11 PM (#4351940)

Former Secretary of State Colin Powell is calling on fellow Republicans to and speak against “idiot presentations” by people like former Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin and the so-called birthers who insist that President Barack Obama is not a U.S. citizen.

As Monday’s inaugural ceremonies got underway, Powell told ABC’s Diane Sawyer and George Stephanopoulos that Republicans needed to “look in the mirror” instead of attacking him after he recently called out Palin and former New Hampshire Gov. John Sununu for using “slave terms” like “shucking and jiving” to describe President Barack Obama.

“The Republicans have to stop buying into things that demonize the president,” he explained. “I mean, why aren’t Republican leaders shouting out about all this birther nonsense and all these other things? They’re silent. We should speak out.”

“This is the kind of intolerance that I’ve been talking about, where these idiot presentations continue to be made and you don’t see the senior leadership of the party saying, ‘No, that’s wrong,’” Powell continued. “In fact, they sometimes by not speaking out, they’re encouraging it. And the base keeps buying the stuff. And it’s killing the base of the party. I mean, 26 percent favorability rating for the party right now. It ought to be telling them something, you know?”

“So, instead of attacking me or whoever speaks like I do, look in the mirror and realize, how are we going to win the next election?”


Pfffft ... RINO.
   1894. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:12 PM (#4351941)
I am not watching an hour long academic lecture on depression. Sum up.


Depression is a condition with a biological basis, and telling a person with clinical depression to "snap out of it" is like telling a diabetic to "snap out" of needing insulin.

You are trying to understand depression by comparing it to personal experiences with brief sadness that are not at all similar to the actual condition, but your lack of knowledge and appropriate context is preventing you from understanding this.
   1895. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:14 PM (#4351943)
what you are asking is that the law provide a long-term backdoor for anyone seeking to avoid punishment.

the public won't support that nor should it


No, I am saying that if you intend to try and get someone to go to prison for six months, you shouldn't threaten them with a sentence of 30 years. That's grossly inappropriate. Particularly if you know that you're dealing with a person with clinical depression who as a result of that condition is not going to be capable of understanding the "message" that you are trying to send by overfiling in the first place.
   1896. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:15 PM (#4351944)
Depression is a condition with a biological basis, and telling a person with clinical depression to "snap out of it" is like telling a diabetic to "snap out" of needing insulin


So what's the net net here? If they're depressed, they can't be tried for crimes they commit? Is depression now a debilitating condition that removes culpability for actions in the world?
   1897. formerly dp Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:16 PM (#4351946)
1. I haven't questioned or attempted to disqualify his actions or even his motives. I've questioned his dedication to the cause.
Larry Lessig didn't seem to have any questions about Swartz's dedication to the cause. But I'm sure you have a far more qualified opinion on the subject.

The perfect does not have to be the enemy of the good. "If you're not willing to spend decades in jail, we don't want you" is not a slogan that will attract many followers.
They apparently want many things. And when they have to bleed for them, they piss themselves and run away.
I'm not sure why you responded to #1869 with "they"-- I was trying to dispel the notion that activists like Swartz are wannabe anarchists. On the previous page, you said:
That's what I find really disconnecting here. It's like the guy was out playing the role of anarchist internet activist going against the man,

This is not the online incarnation of the Black Bloc; a lot of people in these groups are on the wonkish side in their advocacy of specific policies, rather than wanting an information system that is without structure. You've very inaccurately caricatured the group you're making claims about here. A lot of these guys are programmers-- and programming depends on having a rule-bound structure to adhere to.
   1898. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:18 PM (#4351949)
No, I am saying that if you intend to try and get someone to go to prison for six months, you shouldn't threaten them with a sentence of 30 years. That's grossly inappropriate.


The DA process there is: plea to six months or we'll charge you with the full docket, which carries 30 years. It's an attempt to save the state the fiscal cost of a trial by leveraging the evidence and probability of conviction into a small sentence for the accused.

Swartz refused the plea, which left him in line to go to trial, where he was likely to be found guilty and be sentenced to 2-5 years for his crimes. If Swartz couldn't afford to lose the pot and serve 2-5 years, he should have plead out. If Swartz was incapable of making a rational decision about pleading out, his counsel should have either convinced him or motioned for incompetence.
   1899. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:18 PM (#4351950)
So what's the net net here? If they're depressed, they can't be tried for crimes they commit?


If they're clinically depressed, you shouldn't threaten them with sixty times as much jail time as you actually intend for them to serve, because they're pretty much axiomatically going to take it the wrong way, and it might be enough to make them kill themselves.
   1900. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 21, 2013 at 04:20 PM (#4351952)
If Swartz was incapable of making a rational decision about pleading out, his counsel should have...convinced him...


Go back and read that again. Do you have any idea how ####### stupid that sounds?
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