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Wednesday, January 02, 2013

OTP - Jan 2013: Jewish Journal:E1: An error in baseball and Mideast politics

Tripon Posted: January 02, 2013 at 02:48 PM | 2805 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: ot, politics

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   2401. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 24, 2013 at 09:39 PM (#4354526)
Screw that... the blue states are already subsidizing the budgets of the rural red states

This is always a cute turn of phrase, but states don't own the federal taxes of their taxpayers that have chosen to reside there and pay the state taxes.


That's moocher talk.
   2402. OCF Posted: January 24, 2013 at 09:42 PM (#4354529)
Who gets Ohio and Florida?

There could be states at some risk of internal disintegration, as actually happened to Virginia in 1861. Florida is near the top of that list, with North Florida (red, and contiguous with the red block) versus South Florida (blue, and communicates by air and sea) and who knows what happens to Tampa/Orlando.
   2403. DA Baracus Posted: January 24, 2013 at 09:42 PM (#4354530)
Who gets Ohio and Florida?


Whoever loses the war.
   2404. zonk Posted: January 24, 2013 at 09:45 PM (#4354532)
This is always a cute turn of phrase, but states don't own the federal taxes of their taxpayers that have chosen to reside there and pay the state taxes.


I wish that somewhere, there existed a guide one could use to determine when the concept of our state borders were of utmost important and when it isn't.

...or - I could just go with "When the argument makes a Democrat-leaning case, state borders don't matter."
   2405. Mefisto Posted: January 24, 2013 at 09:46 PM (#4354535)
A very quick population check shows that Obama won states with 179 million people, not counting FL. Adding FL brings it close to 2/3 the US total. Adding NC would do that.
   2406. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 24, 2013 at 09:53 PM (#4354542)
Let's say we're back to 1861 and the Red States do something that precipitates a civil war between the Reds and the Blues. Who do you think wins?

I say the blues do because they have control of most of the coast and they have most of the industrial infrastructure, a majority of the population, and the vast majority of the technocracy, which you need to fight a modern war.


Not to mention that most of the leaders of the Red State armies would quickly have a civil war of their own to contend with, given the nature of what the Red States would likely be picking a fight about.
   2407. DA Baracus Posted: January 24, 2013 at 10:01 PM (#4354547)
Not to mention that most of the leaders of the Red State armies would quickly have a civil war of their own to contend with, given the nature of what the Red States would likely be picking a fight about.


And they'd have to worry about citizens in their own backyard who don't agree with secession.
   2408. zonk Posted: January 24, 2013 at 10:01 PM (#4354548)
The red states have the nuclear missile silos, so I imagine a they just nuke the blue state urban centers...

If it stays conventional and becomes a war where the winning side actually wants to keep the losing side actually intact to reintegrate them - then I think it's pretty much a repeat of 1861-5.

The Blue states hold the entire west coast, with a relatively natural defensive border at the Rockies. They've also got a stranglehold on the Northeast and the Great Lakes area... The south has the gulf coast and se coast - but who are they going to trade with? Europe, Latin America, and South America almost certainly ally - or at least, don't raise a stink if the blues blockade the red. Alaska has the oil reserves, but no real way to refine it -- much less ship it. Together with blue control of the west coast - I imagine they strike first at Alaska.

Blue armies would be wise to strike first, hammering through the plains states to take the breadbasket (the blues also have the advantage of California alone being capable of virtually feeding the entire blue army on its own). Blue navies and air forces bottle the south up in dixie -- I wouldn't even bother dealing with the mountain states - beyond maybe defending Colorado for some its military assets... but then, the only armies of any size would be coming up through Texas and I'm already pushing south through the plains at the word go.

Sign a secret agreement with Mexico to give 'em back part of Texas or maybe all of Arizona and we can invade from the north and south, squeezing the big prize.

Then, what do they have left? Swamps and bayou down south? Mountains around Appalachia and the Rockies? I suppose they could fight a guerrilla war for years under such a scenario, but at some point - I decide clearing the mountains isn't worth the cost in blood, issue an ultimatum, and if its rejected, lay waste to them from the air.
   2409. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 24, 2013 at 10:08 PM (#4354553)
Not to mention that most of the leaders of the Red State armies would quickly have a civil war of their own to contend with, given the nature of what the Red States would likely be picking a fight about.

And they'd have to worry about citizens in their own backyard who don't agree with secession.


Which is exactly what I mean. I'm sure that all those Mexican Americans in Texas and blacks in Alabama would be totally loyal to their Tea Party and redneck leaders. (/sarcasm)
   2410. OCF Posted: January 24, 2013 at 10:09 PM (#4354554)
99% of the serious armament is in under the control of the Pentagon. This isn't 1861, when the states could command their own armed forces. The Pentagon would most likely remain united, squash pipsqueak rebellions here and there, say the the U.S. stays together and say that this is going to have to be settled with politics.
   2411. spike Posted: January 24, 2013 at 10:09 PM (#4354555)
The Blues would have the sub based nukes, so I think MAD would be in effect, although it would certainly be far more costly to the urbanites.
   2412. zonk Posted: January 24, 2013 at 10:11 PM (#4354559)
Which is exactly what I mean. I'm sure that all those Mexican Americans in Texas and blacks in Alabama would be totally loyal to their Tea Party and redneck leaders. (/sarcasm)


Well, to be fair - California would have some real problems deciding whether to intern the whole of Orange County or not, too...
   2413. DA Baracus Posted: January 24, 2013 at 10:15 PM (#4354564)
Which is exactly what I mean.


Ah, I thought you meant more like the states themselves wouldn't be as unified as they were the first time around. Which would be another factor.

Which is exactly what I mean. I'm sure that all those Mexican Americans in Texas and blacks in Alabama would be totally loyal to their Tea Party and redneck leaders. (/sarcasm)


Not just that, a significant portion of populations in the major cities would not be behind it either, which would be crippling.
   2414. zonk Posted: January 24, 2013 at 10:15 PM (#4354565)
99% of the serious armament is in under the control of the Pentagon. This isn't 1861, when the states could command their own armed forces. The Pentagon would most likely remain united, squash pipsqueak rebellions here and there, say the the U.S. stays together and say that this is going to have to be settled with politics.


Bah... so in your remake of Patton, the German bomber actually nails him and the film is over shortly after he arrives in Africa?

   2415. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: January 24, 2013 at 10:23 PM (#4354573)
Well, to be fair - California would have some real problems deciding whether to intern the whole of Orange County or not, too...

Probably only the 55% of the population who voted for either Romney, Gary Johnson or Roseanne Barr. They could stuff them all in Santa Catalina and ring the island with gunboats, and give them enough guns so that they'd eventually just kill themselves.

(Of course, this would be wrong.)
   2416. Mefisto Posted: January 24, 2013 at 10:32 PM (#4354576)
Any real separation would have to be peaceful. That means that there needs to be rules about the process. For example, there'd have to be a rule that everyone gets to vote; no voter suppression. Once you set that up, the viability of a "red state" nation collapses. The truth of the matter is that there isn't any substantial support for secession in most states once you take race into account. Southern white voters predominate because of voter suppression. If all the minorities actually got to vote, then their votes combined with loyal white voters would make even places like MS tough to predict.

The real base for the hard right is in the roughly U-shaped area that begins in WV, runs down through KY and TN, across through AR, and up through the Great Plains. That's not a country; there isn't even ocean access unless LA goes along.

The other thing is, the welfare states aren't economically viable now. That's why they're welfare states. They couldn't exist on their own, even if we don't account for global warming. As global warming kicks in, the Great Plains are likely to dry out and the South will become Amazonia North.
   2417. Publius Publicola Posted: January 24, 2013 at 10:34 PM (#4354578)
It depends, what are the rest of the assumptions? 1861 armies? Only 1861 states count? Who gets Ohio and Florida?


Contemporary weaponry but it stays conventional. The red states might have the missile silos but that's nullified by the blues having the nuclear submarines, and most of the manufacturing facilities for additional thermonuclear devices. So that would discourage any use of nukes. The wild card is biological weapons. If those are used, chalk up a big advantage for the blue states. The entire pharmaceutical industry and most of the R&D is in the blue states.

I would guess that both Ohio and Florida remain blue. They both went for Obama in the last two election cycles and, if not for gerrymandering would present blue congressional delegations. The real tossup state would be North Carolina, which has Camp Lajeune, Fort Bragg, Cherry Point and Seymour Johnson Air Force base. NC is tough to figure. It has both very red and very blue areas. It is trending towards blue but hasn't quite gotten there yet.

the location of military bases would be most problematic for the blue states. The red states have most of the military facilities. But the facilities themselves would lose some of their value with the mass defections of blue state personnel.

I agree with whoever said its going to play out just like that last civil war. The red states would do OK for awhile but would get crushed once the blue states geared up for war.

What would be the killer for the red states, IMHO, is how the blue states would crush them in IT expertise. Of the major high tech corridors, the red states have only the minor ones. Silicon valley, Rt. 128, Seattle and Route 495 (metro DC) would all be safely in blue hands. The red states communications, electrical and infrastructure systems would be totally breached/###### for the duration, and that would be the difference.

EDIt: soft drink of choice to spike on the nuke sub angle.
   2418. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Posted: January 24, 2013 at 10:35 PM (#4354580)
An article I read today stated that for the quarter, Netflix made $8 million, Apple $29.7 BILLION, yet, Netflix is up over 30% and Apple is down 11.
To the extent that stock prices don't just reflect an echo chamber of idiots and algorithms, they reflect market expectations (ok, same thing). Up until today, the price for Netflix was based on the market's expectation that they'd lose money this quarter, so turning a profit is big news even if its not as much as Apple brought in -- which is itself disappointing relative to market expectations of how much Apple could have made, hence the decline there. However, a share of Apple still costs 3x a share of Netflix, and Apple's total value is still astronomically higher than Netflix.
   2419. Jack Carter, calling Beleaguered Castle Posted: January 24, 2013 at 10:51 PM (#4354586)
Am I crazy for thinking that rigging the EC would backfire massively? Theres no way that such an obvious attempt at stealing an election wouldn't be the top story by 2015. I'd have to think people would react by voting D in a landslide, but maybe I'm giving way too much credit to our media and electorate.


Given that the 2000 election was stolen with nary a whimper, I think you are giving way too much credit. Post-2000 there was no change in the way elections were run; no change in how ballots were put together; and no change in how they were counted or re-counted.

It is a different media, now, though. MSNBC is much better than Fox, and serves as a real counterweight. They've been pounding the story, with real effect.

$40 though seems a little high for one day in my opinion.

Apple is down over 11% today eventhough they recorded record profits and iphone sales. Those records were not as high as wall street was expecting though. craziness.


The market has been governed by computer trading for a while now. Long-term you might see some real relationship between price and earnings, but in the short term the fluctations can result from one hundred triggers on the order of, 'it's a Thursday. Tech stocks for the past decade increase on Thursdays.' Those adjustments can easily overwhelm specific events actually related to the stock itself.

A Republican state legislator wants rape victims to carry their pregnancies to term, claiming the fetus could be used as “evidence” at trial.

Rep. Cathrynn Brown introduced House Bill 206 on Wednesday, which would make terminating a pregnancy caused by incest or rape a third-degree felony for “tampering with evidence,” which could carry three years in prison.

“Tampering with evidence shall include procuring or facilitating an abortion, or compelling or coercing another to obtain an abortion, of a fetus that is the result of criminal sexual penetration or incest with the intent to destroy evidence of the crime,” the bill says.


This is breathtakingly ingenious.
   2420. OCF Posted: January 24, 2013 at 10:58 PM (#4354590)
Forget Civil War II scenarios - there's really no way for that to actually happen. But what if there were an election in which the D presidential candidate won the popular vote with a 9%-10% margin but the EC went the other way because of shenanigans - shenanigans so obvious that everyone has to notice? Urban riots, maybe. Huge demonstrations, for sure. Americans don't really do general strikes, do they? And maybe the demonstrations die out, but what if they don't, and they're held together with a demand that the R candidate resign before ever assuming office? (Or a demand that the EC, if it hasn't voted yet, "honor the will of the people.") This would be new territory, and it's not military force that would matter.
   2421. Joe Kehoskie Posted: January 24, 2013 at 11:02 PM (#4354593)
Am I crazy for thinking that rigging the EC would backfire massively? Theres no way that such an obvious attempt at stealing an election wouldn't be the top story by 2015. I'd have to think people would react by voting D in a landslide, but maybe I'm giving way too much credit to our media and electorate.

I love how the same people who cheer the idea of, e.g., Texas voting for a Republican but throwing its EC votes to the Dem under the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact now are aghast, absolutely aghast, at the idea of using some other scheme to award EC votes.

Do you guys have any actual principles, or do you just decide everything on a case-by-case basis?

***
Screw that... the blue states are already subsidizing the budgets of the rural red states - in such a scenario, I'm out... done... secede, disband the union, let's all go our own way, whatever.

Oops, another BBTF lefty exhibiting a serious lack of principles. The same guy who not only loves but demands "progressive" taxation at the local and state level is suddenly appalled at the idea of progressive taxation at the federal level.

All whims, no principles. Such is the convenient life of the modern lefty.
   2422. Tripon Posted: January 24, 2013 at 11:03 PM (#4354594)
Civil War doesn't happen without a standing army to help sustain a rebellion, and I doubt the civilians who tote weapons and think already in a war against the government is strong enough to offer any significant resistance. And frankly, very little people in the armed forces would join in such a rebellion.

Traitors get hung.
   2423. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: January 24, 2013 at 11:08 PM (#4354595)
Joe lecturing us about principles is fantastic.
   2424. Publius Publicola Posted: January 24, 2013 at 11:10 PM (#4354597)
I love how the same people who cheer the idea of, e.g., Texas voting for a Republican but throwing its EC votes to the Dem under the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact now are aghast, absolutely aghast, at the idea of using some other scheme to award EC votes.


It appears the difference between blue and red schemes at electoral reform is this: blue schemes strive to better represent the will of the people while red schemes strive to suppress it.
   2425. Shredder Posted: January 24, 2013 at 11:28 PM (#4354604)
I love how the same people who cheer the idea of, e.g., Texas voting for a Republican but throwing its EC votes to the Dem under the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact now are aghast, absolutely aghast, at the idea of using some other scheme to award EC votes.
This is arguably the dumbest thing ever written on this website. I mean, I know Joek is a disengenuous piece of human excrement, so I'd be willing to believe it's just trolling. But this is just too dumb even for trolling.
   2426. Joe Kehoskie Posted: January 24, 2013 at 11:36 PM (#4354607)
It appears the difference between blue and red schemes at electoral reform is this: blue schemes strive to better represent the will of the people while red schemes strive to suppress it.

Giving your state's EC votes to a candidate your state's voters didn't vote for hardly seems aligned with respecting the "will of the people."

***
This is arguably the dumbest thing ever written on this website. I mean, I know Joek is a disengenuous piece of human excrement, so I'd be willing to believe it's just trolling. But this is just too dumb even for trolling.

Yes, "Shredder," I know how much you lefties hate when your hypocrisy and lack of principles are pointed out to you. I know how much it hurts your fragile self-esteem.

***
Joe lecturing us about principles is fantastic.

I'd love to see a list of the inconsistent political principles I've exhibited here.
   2427. Morty Causa Posted: January 24, 2013 at 11:42 PM (#4354611)
A Republican state legislator wants rape victims to carry their pregnancies to term, claiming the fetus could be used as “evidence” at trial.

Rep. Cathrynn Brown introduced House Bill 206 on Wednesday, which would make terminating a pregnancy caused by incest or rape a third-degree felony for “tampering with evidence,” which could carry three years in prison.

“Tampering with evidence shall include procuring or facilitating an abortion, or compelling or coercing another to obtain an abortion, of a fetus that is the result of criminal sexual penetration or incest with the intent to destroy evidence of the crime,” the bill says.


This is ingenious, but it is sleight of hand, as it 'twere. What is the fetus evidence of?

Why not a law that makes it a felony for her to bathe and douche afterwards?

   2428. zonk Posted: January 24, 2013 at 11:42 PM (#4354612)
It appears the difference between blue and red schemes at electoral reform is this: blue schemes strive to better represent the will of the people while red schemes strive to suppress it.


The 'blue state schemes' aren't schemes -- they're changes to either eliminate wholesale the winner-take-all EC paradigm, or, essentially eliminate the EC paradigm altogether. The national vote compact isn't predicated on some patently undemocratic idea how to best turn the election towards a particular party, it's predicated entirely on the idea of the guy with the most votes being President.

None of these horrid red state schemes are predicated on that -- there's a reason that GOP-held legislatures in PA (blue state), MI (blue state), VA (purple state trending blue), and OH (purple) are doing this... yet - nothing is changing in SC (where the GOP just took both chambers for the first time), nothing is changing in AL, nothing is changing in GA, in MS, or any other red state.

These shenanigans are solely happening where splitting EVs would only under any conceivable, realistic circumstance in the foreseeable future - aid a Republic candidate to win the White House, regardless of the will of the majority of the country.

It's such a perverse joke - why even bother? Why not just pass legislation awarding the EVs by fiat now...

To be sure, both parties play games with gerrymandering. Both parties seek electoral advantage.

But anyone who doesn't see for the naked subversion it is, is either a liar or an idiot.

To wit - there's a difference gerrymandering districts to maximize party advantage and going so nuclear as to create a single party delegation...

EVERY single state where this is being done is in a state where the scenario only hurts Democratic chances. NOWHERE is any such legislation being proposed in states where Democratic might pick up an EV or two...

Again - why even bother with the niceties of elections?

This isn't even a case of giving the GOP an advantage in tight elections -- it's literally baking in advantage for the Republicans such that a Democratic Presidential candidate would literally need to win nationally by 5 to 7 points to have any shot at winning.

Again... Obama won the 2012 election by 5 million votes and nearly 4 points nationally... had these bills all been in place, he would have lost.

Anyone who believes that's a 'proper' result - and that's the sole thing this movement is looking to produce - has no place in a democracy, a republic, or any other representative form of government.

Like I said, just get it over with and cancel the elections because they no longer serve any meaningful purpose - there's no balance of small states vs large states, no balance of state and federal, no concern over tyranny of majority or tyranny of minority.... it's solely and only about ensuring a single party monopoly.
   2429. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: January 24, 2013 at 11:47 PM (#4354615)
The same guy who not only loves but demands "progressive" taxation at the local and state level is suddenly appalled at the idea of progressive taxation at the federal level.
If only liberals had the same principles of Joe Kehoskie, then the red states would starve to pieces. Maybe that's what Joe's hoping for. Maybe Joe's just a more militant mutation of liberal.
   2430. Shredder Posted: January 24, 2013 at 11:49 PM (#4354619)
It's such a perverse joke - why even bother? Why not just pass legislation awarding the EVs by fiat now
Why not just change the law so only white males can vote? That's what they're really after.
   2431. Publius Publicola Posted: January 24, 2013 at 11:54 PM (#4354621)
Giving your state's EC votes to a candidate your state's voters didn't vote for hardly seems aligned with respecting the "will of the people."


Yes, and that's what's so problematic with what Virginia is trying to ram through (without even the majority of the state legislature agreeing, mind you). They're trying to imbalance the power of the state electorate towards the minority of the rural voters who will vote red.

I'm glad you see the problem, Joe, and can demonstrate the capacity for critical and independent analysis.
   2432. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: January 24, 2013 at 11:56 PM (#4354622)
Probably only the 55% of the population who voted for either Romney, Gary Johnson or Roseanne Barr. They could stuff them all in Santa Catalina and ring the island with gunboats, and give them enough guns so that they'd eventually just kill themselves.


You and all your pool-playing, movie-stealing buddies are welcome to try of course, friend ...

;)
   2433. Joe Kehoskie Posted: January 24, 2013 at 11:59 PM (#4354623)
Yes, and that's what's so problematic with what Virginia is trying to ram through (without even the majority of the state legislature agreeing, mind you). They're trying to imbalance the power of the state electorate towards the minority of the rural voters who will vote red.

I'm glad you see the problem, Joe, and can demonstrate the capacity for critical and independent analysis.

Funny how gerrymandering only stinks when your party is on the wrong end of it.

Also, #2428 is a 13-paragraph reply by Zonk to a one-sentence comment. That might be a new record for him.
   2434. Tripon Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:01 AM (#4354624)
Gerrymandering sucks no matter who does it. And whomever is in power is try to favor their own party in shaping the districts. And that's why you need to take that power away from them.
   2435. Joe Kehoskie Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:02 AM (#4354626)
Gerrymandering sucks no matter who does it. And whomever is in power is try to favor their own party in shaping the districts. And that's why you need to take that power away from them.

So we can trust them to take away our guns and to force us to buy crappy health insurance, etc., but we can't trust them to draw legislative districts.
   2436. Publius Publicola Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:07 AM (#4354627)
The gun legislation being proposed has majority support, so I'm OK with it (and I assume you are as well, if you believe in the democratic process). Gerrymandering by a minority party to suppress the will of the majority I'm not in favor of, and apparently neither are you.
   2437. Tripon Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:09 AM (#4354629)

So we can trust them to take away our guns and to force us to buy crappy health insurance, etc., but we can't trust them to draw legislative districts.


So you don't believe in limited government. Swell. You want a government that actually responds to the people, it'll help by having representatives that actually have to listen to what their constituents want.
   2438. zonk Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:11 AM (#4354633)
Why not just change the law so only white males can vote? That's what they're really after.


What do you want, they gave the idea of outreach and perhaps reversing the trend of women and latinos consolidating into the blue column a full 8 weeks of effort... it didn't work, so this is plan B.

   2439. Joe Kehoskie Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:25 AM (#4354642)
So you don't believe in limited government. Swell. You want a government that actually responds to the people, it'll help by having representatives that actually have to listen to what their constituents want.

Huh? Drawing legislative districts is a lot more aligned with the concept of "limited government" than taking away people's guns or forcing people to buy health insurance.
   2440. Sonic Youk Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:26 AM (#4354643)
I love how the same people who cheer the idea of, e.g., Texas voting for a Republican but throwing its EC votes to the Dem under the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact now are aghast, absolutely aghast, at the idea of using some other scheme to award EC votes.

Do you guys have any actual principles, or do you just decide everything on a case-by-case basis?


I'm... for this? You quoted me. But, Its so hard to tell, when I dont even know what the hell you're talking about.

Isn't the NPV a scheme to get EVERY state to divvy its votes accordingly? Yea, sure I'm for that. What does that have to do with anything?
   2441. Sonic Youk Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:29 AM (#4354644)
Giving your state's EC votes to a candidate your state's voters didn't vote for hardly seems aligned with respecting the "will of the people."


oh, ok, I got to this right after. So youre against the thing that is really happening, and I'm for something that you told me I'm for, and isn't happening. OK.
   2442. Machine Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:35 AM (#4354645)
Don't forget that prior the past election the activist judges did one hell of a job of preventing the enacting of measures that would have greatly reduced voter fraud. Because of that, we still have a system that is abused left and right and questions the legitimacy of our elections.

One real advantage to the proposals in Virginia and Wisconsin would be that it would limit the amount of fraud that takes place in the inner cities that illegally inflates the Democratic vote by tens of thousands. The fact that this is allowed to happen is still a crime that needs to be prosecuted, but with the changes to the Electoral College voting, the corruption of one district won't completely tarnish the votes of the entire state. You still have the problem with the single district (or more depending on the size of the state), but these corrupt areas will no longer be able to illegally influence the vote in districts that properly vote.
   2443. Tripon Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:39 AM (#4354647)

Huh? Drawing legislative districts is a lot more aligned with the concept of "limited government" than taking away people's guns or forcing people to buy health insurance.


Its kinda hilarious that Joe states what exactly is the issue and so he's against the idea of independent panels drawing the district lines. Fantastic.
   2444. Joe Kehoskie Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:47 AM (#4354648)
I'm... for this? You quoted me. But, Its so hard to tell, when I dont even know what the hell you're talking about.

Your comment was one of many on the topic. I simply used it as a jumping-off point for my comment, which wasn't intended as an accusation against you personally.

***
Its kinda hilarious that Joe states what exactly is the issue and so he's against the idea of independent panels drawing the district lines. Fantastic.

What exactly is this (alleged) "gotcha" you're so excited about?

Also, there's no such thing as an "independent" redistricting panel. You can't take politics out of politics.
   2445. Tripon Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:52 AM (#4354651)

What exactly is this (alleged) "gotcha" you're so excited about?

Also, there's no such thing as an "independent" redistricting panel. You can't take politics out of politics.


Whatever you think I am saying, I'm actually just amused on how you're so rigidly against what you consider the regular ol' 'liberal Orthodox'. Nothing more, or less.

And they're "independent" of the political parties, not politics. There's a clear implications what "independent" means, and I trust you do understand and are just playing coy.
   2446. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:52 AM (#4354652)
Machine, you're gonna need to back up those accusations with links.
   2447. Shredder Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:52 AM (#4354653)
One real advantage to the proposals in Virginia and Wisconsin would be that it would limit the amount of fraud that takes place in the inner cities that illegally inflates the Democratic vote by tens of thousands. The fact that this is allowed to happen is still a crime that needs to be prosecuted, but with the changes to the Electoral College voting, the corruption of one district won't completely tarnish the votes of the entire state. You still have the problem with the single district (or more depending on the size of the state), but these corrupt areas will no longer be able to illegally influence the vote in districts that properly vote.
Well, color me impressed. I thought it would stand for a while, but it apparently didn't take long for someone to post something dumber than Joek.
   2448. Sonic Youk Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:53 AM (#4354654)
Apparently, after a couple hundred years of mostly functional democracy, this is controversial, so just to let everyone know:

no, actually, if the Democrats win a bunch of legislatures and governors offices in 2014, I don't think that they should cherrypick a few adventitious states, massively rejigger their electoral system, and win control of the federal government via a firewall against all but the most massive popular vote landslide.

Glad to get that off my chest.
   2449. Sonic Youk Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:57 AM (#4354657)
One real advantage to the proposals in Virginia and Wisconsin would be that it would limit the amount of fraud that takes place in the inner cities that illegally inflates the Democratic vote by tens of thousands. The fact that this is allowed to happen is still a crime that needs to be prosecuted, but with the changes to the Electoral College voting, the corruption of one district won't completely tarnish the votes of the entire state. You still have the problem with the single district (or more depending on the size of the state), but these corrupt areas will no longer be able to illegally influence the vote in districts that properly vote.


This thing that never happened is destroying our democracy! In order to save Democracy, we must trash it!

Signed,

Every right wing dictatorship ever
   2450. Joe Kehoskie Posted: January 25, 2013 at 01:20 AM (#4354661)
And they're "independent" of the political parties, not politics. There's a clear implications what "independent" means, and I trust you do understand and are just playing coy.

How is this better? The parties at least represent large blocs of voters.

***
Well, color me impressed. I thought it would stand for a while, but it apparently didn't take long for someone to post something dumber than Joek.

You did? Every time you stop by, you claim to have found the "dumbest thing ever posted on BBTF."

***
This thing that never happened is destroying our democracy! In order to save Democracy, we must trash it!

Signed,

Every right wing dictatorship ever

And more than a few left-wing dictatorships, too.
   2451. Shredder Posted: January 25, 2013 at 01:25 AM (#4354662)
You did? Every time you stop by, you claim to have found the "dumbest thing ever posted on BBTF."
Well, you post here a lot, so that's not all that surprising.
   2452. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: January 25, 2013 at 01:34 AM (#4354664)
Well, you post here a lot, so that's not all that surprising.
That'll leave a mark.
   2453. Joe Kehoskie Posted: January 25, 2013 at 01:41 AM (#4354666)
High-five!

Woo!

High-five!

***

By the way, "Gold Star" — I was here almost all afternoon and evening on Election Day and then stayed here for hours and hours that night and into the following morning, discussing the results. Yet someone told me you were in the Lounge, claiming that I was "scarce" on those two days. Are you a liar in real life, or only on the internet?
   2454. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: January 25, 2013 at 01:51 AM (#4354668)
Oh, are you really trying to defend your honor? That's so touching.
   2455. Joe Kehoskie Posted: January 25, 2013 at 01:53 AM (#4354669)
Oh, are you really trying to defend your honor? That's so touching.

I'm not worried about my honor. I just felt like pointing out that you're a gutless weasel who likes to lie about people behind their backs. You know, for the benefit of the people who don't hang out in the Lounge all day.
   2456. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: January 25, 2013 at 01:57 AM (#4354670)
Your opinion is noted.

That I've upset you has made my night. It really has.
   2457. Joe Kehoskie Posted: January 25, 2013 at 02:02 AM (#4354672)
Your opinion is noted.

That I've upset you has made my night. It really has.

I'm not upset at all. I knew about it two months ago, but you're generally so unnoticeable/irrelevant here that I kept forgetting to mention it.
   2458. Tripon Posted: January 25, 2013 at 02:05 AM (#4354673)
Joe and Gold Star should have a trial by Combat.
   2459. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: January 25, 2013 at 02:06 AM (#4354674)
Trial by Wombat would be cooler.
   2460. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 25, 2013 at 02:17 AM (#4354681)
High-five!

Woo!

High-five!


Hi-5 is so square. All the cool kids are into terrorist fist jabs.

Bump it my Negroes!
   2461. Joe Kehoskie Posted: January 25, 2013 at 03:29 AM (#4354691)
Hi-5 is so square. All the cool kids are into terrorist fist jabs.

Why do you hate America so much?
   2462. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 25, 2013 at 04:25 AM (#4354696)
Dunno. Something to do with Carrot Top, I guess.
   2463. Joe Kehoskie Posted: January 25, 2013 at 04:29 AM (#4354697)
Ha ha. I bet all of us could get behind seating Carrot Top next to Nancy Grace on BBTF's rocket to the sun.
   2464. zachtoma Posted: January 25, 2013 at 05:22 AM (#4354698)
Is this the longest thread ever?

When was the last time Israel was mentioned?
   2465. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: January 25, 2013 at 05:40 AM (#4354699)
Is this the longest thread ever?

Not even close.
   2466. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 25, 2013 at 09:12 AM (#4354721)
I love how the same people who cheer the idea of, e.g., Texas voting for a Republican but throwing its EC votes to the Dem under the National Popular Vote Interstate Compact now are aghast, absolutely aghast, at the idea of using some other scheme to award EC votes.

Do you guys have any actual principles, or do you just decide everything on a case-by-case basis?


I missed the opportunity to comment on this gem (clearly I need less life and more web time), but darn it I want to.

First of all it is a classic JoeK comment. You will note he is not defending the GOP plans, not talking about the principles behind it or anything like it. He is attacking the people criticizing the GOP proposal. If he had a principle he wanted to talk about then that could be discussed, but he is not interested in that.

So discussing the merits of the GOP propsal is irrelevent to Joe's case. Anyone against the GOP is bad and should be attacked, and the discussion staying on those grounds works for him.

All that aside, it is an obvious power grab by the GOP, but a fairly clever one and clearly within the EC rules. How much (if any) backlash there would be either before or after an election with these rules in place is not clear to me. How many partisan Joe's are there, versus folks who are conservative but still have a sense of fair play and can see a power grab and wouldn't like it?

Because it is legal and there is not much that could be done about it. And no I don't think it would spark a civil war or anything like that, though I did appreciate the brief detour into War!
   2467. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: January 25, 2013 at 10:07 AM (#4354749)
And they'd have to worry about citizens in their own backyard who don't agree with secession.


Interesting fact: during the actual Civil War, this was a pretty big issue in most of Appalachia. Much like West Virginia, the hills and mountain counties of Carolina, GA and TN didn't really want any part of the war to defend slavery, which was only really supported popularly by the lowland cotton societies. While only WV succeeded in seceding from the seceding state, there was a lot of "insurrection" against the Confederacy in the mountains of the other CSA states.
   2468. DA Baracus Posted: January 25, 2013 at 10:52 AM (#4354773)
I'm sure there were, it just generally gets overlooked (other than the formation of West Virginia). If a civil war was to happen today, the insurrection would be much more impactful, in large part because those against the secession would have better access and ability to cause damage. (If only slaves were armed!)
   2469. zonk Posted: January 25, 2013 at 10:54 AM (#4354775)

Isn't the NPV a scheme to get EVERY state to divvy its votes accordingly? Yea, sure I'm for that. What does that have to do with anything?


The NPV scheme is entirely founded on making the EC moot...

Basically, the legislation in place in a number of states is predicated on 270 EVs worth of states passing the same - at that point, the EC is moot... there are is a majority of states who will always ensure the national popular vote winner wins the EC, regardless.

Hence, they're saying it doesn't matter where the EVs come from -- 270 EVs en bloc would say the national popular vote winner takes the Presidency.

The EC could continue, I suppose, but it becomes meaningless and archaic.
   2470. HCO Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:05 AM (#4354783)
Hello, longthreaders. I thought you would be interested to know that today is the ten year anniversary of the PETCO thread. I know 2000 posts is nothing these days but, back in aught-three, it seemed like a big deal to us.
   2471. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:12 AM (#4354786)
I think the longest single thread is the original NBA thread, but I am not sure. But yeah I remember back when PetCo was the go to "Long Thread". Good times.
   2472. Randy Jones Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:21 AM (#4354793)
Rob Neyer linking to the Petco thread is what introduced me to this site.

I curse his name daily.
   2473. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:28 AM (#4354798)
I curse his name daily.


Us to.

I kid.
   2474. Shredder Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:34 AM (#4354806)
I think the longest single thread is the original NBA thread, but I am not sure. But yeah I remember back when PetCo was the go to "Long Thread". Good times.
Hell, I remember the Chris Singleton thread, which dwarfed all others at maybe 200 posts. And the Mabry/Giambi thread, which was a record breaker at the time around 700 posts.
   2475. DA Baracus Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:36 AM (#4354808)
Saxby Chambliss is not going to run for re-election.

Unfortunately the cast of characters that will run for his seat look to be even worse, such as Broun and Gringey.
   2476. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:41 AM (#4354813)
I'm still trying to figure out why the NBA thread was so long
   2477. just plain joe Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:44 AM (#4354814)
Ten years since PETCO, who would have thought? I'm pretty sure that the Neyer link is what first got me here as well.
   2478. Mefisto Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:45 AM (#4354816)
Is this the longest thread ever?


It only seems that way while reading it.
   2479. Sonic Youk Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:46 AM (#4354817)
Broun is the perfect candidate for Republicans new tradition of blowing safe races.
   2480. zonk Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:50 AM (#4354823)
Florida Speaker of the House (a Republican) opposes the GOP electoral shenanigans...

Florida's Republican House Speaker Will Weatherford has come out against current Republican efforts to change the way Electoral College votes are apportioned.

"To me, that's like saying in a football game, 'We should have only three quarters, because we were winning after three quarters and they beat us in the fourth," Weatherford told the Miami Herald. "I don't think we need to change the rules of the game, I think we need to get better."


Actually - the plan (and BTW - The RNC has blessed and supports this) is more like saying they're going to make a always-true point spread of 5-7 points part of the game, and even if you 'win', you have to beat this built in point spread.
   2481. zonk Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:51 AM (#4354825)
I'm still trying to figure out why the NBA thread was so long


Because the number of ways to say basketball - and the NBA above all - suck is endless.
   2482. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:52 AM (#4354826)
I was wondering how long it would take for the future of 3d printing to come up ...


“How’s that national conversation going?” sneers Cody Wilson, founder of Defense Distributed, an organization dedicated to making it easy for anyone to 3-D print their own gun. It’s the opening line of a video showcasing Defense Distributed’s successful employment of a 3-D printer to manufacture a plastic high-capacity ammo clip for an AR-15 rifle.

Wilson is namechecking Democratic House Majority Leader Nancy Pelosi’s call for a “new conversation” on gun control in the wake of the Newtown, Conn., massacre. Wilson follows up his question by firing off a few rounds of ammunition, giving his handiwork an admiring look, and declaring: “Welcome to the age of the printed magazine.” The screen flashes a message: “Download your mag today.”

The 51-second video closes with Wilson eating a meal. An off-camera voice asks him: “So how does it taste?” His answer: “Tastes like Dianne Feinstein’s lunch.” It’s another anti-gun control broadside, a slam against the Democratic senator who plans to introduce legislation that would reinstate the ban on selling high-capacity ammunition magazines that existed from 1994 to 2004.

Wilson’s message could not be more blatant. In the age of cheap 3-D printers and open-source, easily downloadable design code, he is declaring that gun control is obsolete. So don’t even bother trying.


Link
   2483. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:55 AM (#4354830)
I'm still trying to figure out why the NBA thread was so long


It was full of rational, intelligent, informative discussion with very little rancor, grandstanding, or arguments in bad faith.
   2484. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:58 AM (#4354833)
The NBA thread was/is awesome and was in large part my gateway to participating in this site (and not just lurking).

And the 3d printer thing is interesting. Technology always outpaces legislation.
   2485. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: January 25, 2013 at 11:59 AM (#4354834)
Netflix up another $17 today. So that makes it $57 in 1 1/3 days so far. Crazy
   2486. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:05 PM (#4354842)
Broun is the perfect candidate for Republicans new tradition of blowing safe races.


Depending on who the Dems run against a potential Broun bid, that's a definite pick-up possibility for the D's in the Senate. It would be odd having a Dem Senator from GA, but if the GOP runs a nutter fringe kook like Broun, it could happen.
   2487. Tilden Katz Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:15 PM (#4354851)
Who do the Dems have on their bench in GA?
   2488. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:21 PM (#4354864)
Technology always outpaces legislation.
I had a history teacher who said, in warfare, when technology outweighs tactics (like WWI-era charges upon machine gun nests) massive casualties ensue. He also said it applies to ethics, of which the 3D printer is a great example.
   2489. DA Baracus Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:23 PM (#4354865)
Who do the Dems have on their bench in GA?


Rep. John Barrow, who faced a tough re-election campaign this year. I don't think he'll run though, and he has said he is not interested. I don't see Kasim Reed running. Scott Holcomb is a hot name but I don't think he's got the pull to win. In a reserve tank somewhere is Shirley Franklin. Those immediately come to mind, I'm sure I'm forgetting someone.
   2490. spike Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:25 PM (#4354866)
2487, Nobody, really. Atlanta mayor Kasim Reed will probably run. Mark Taylor and Cathy Cox are still around too, I guess.

//edit - Herman Cain may well run and win, BTW. Try that on for size.
   2491. DA Baracus Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:28 PM (#4354868)
From Jim Galloway:

Talk radio host Herman Cain, a GOP candidate for president who began his political career in Georgia with a 2004 run for the U.S. Senate, quickly removed himself from consideration this morning. But don’t rule out former House speaker Newt Gingrich.


#### YEAH MOONBASE.
   2492. Bitter Mouse Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:30 PM (#4354873)
Hey I think Gingrich is a loon, but one of his few lovable aspects is his space lunacy.
   2493. DA Baracus Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:31 PM (#4354877)
I would visit a moonbase. I could watch Nancy Grace's rocketship sail by.
   2494. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:33 PM (#4354879)
Another wildcard to throw into the GA Senate vacancy: Bob Barr, Libertarian

GA is a strong Lib state, especially the Atlanta suburbs. If the GOP goes hard right, and the Dems have a weak challenger, it's not impossible that Barr could do a real dance for the seat.
   2495. zenbitz Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:37 PM (#4354884)
My single most succesful financial transaction was borrowing 25K from my 401K 2 days before the m
Market dropped 10%
   2496. zonk Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:39 PM (#4354886)
My single most succesful financial transaction was borrowing 25K from my 401K 2 days before the m
Market dropped 10%


All the columnists and financial tv yakkers tell me that borrowing money from your 401k still makes you worse than hitler.
   2497. DA Baracus Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:40 PM (#4354888)
Agreed with Sam. It looks like a weak field all around and so anything is possible. Even Karen Handle.

   2498. just plain joe Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:44 PM (#4354892)
All the columnists and financial tv yakkers tell me that borrowing money from your 401k still makes you worse than hitler.


One wonders how many of these talking heads actually follow their own advice. Not that I watch them very often (no money so no investment worries), but much of what I've seen is either common sense that any investor should know, or stuff that is just batshit crazy.
   2499. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:45 PM (#4354894)
The screen flashes a message: “Download your mag today.”

MPAA: You wouldn't download a high capacity magazine.
   2500. bunyon Posted: January 25, 2013 at 12:46 PM (#4354897)
I could probably look this up but someone here probably knows: in regard to 3D printing, with something like a bullet, you'd have to have powder and charge. Would your printer just have this stuff? You can't make powder from plastic. Would you print the casings and bullet and then add your own powder?
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