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Tuesday, July 01, 2014

OTP - July 2014: Republicans Lose To Democrats For Sixth Straight Year In Congressional Baseball Game

As Time magazine recently reported, Republicans, frustrated by their 22-0 loss in last year’s game, sought a new coach to shake things up on the field this year. Some members even appealed to House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) to fire the coach, Rep. Joe Barton (R-Texas). But Boehner said he wasn’t powerful enough to control the baseball diamond, and Barton refused to walk away after spending 28 years with the game. Instead, he brought on Rep. Roger Williams (R-Texas), a former professional baseball player and coach at Texas Christian University, to coach while he stayed on as the team’s manager.

In the face of Wednesday’s loss, according to The Washington Post, Republicans are once again asking Boehner to remove Barton from the game. But with multiple pitchers giving up walk after walk, it seems that what the Republicans really need is a pitcher who can better match Rep. Cedric Richmond (D-La.), who previously pitched on Morehouse College’s varsity baseball team.

Bitter Mouse Posted: July 01, 2014 at 07:53 AM | 4025 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics, winning is fun

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   2601. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 19, 2014 at 07:05 PM (#4754504)
Well, I grew up some 35 miles east of Texas & am therefore biologically predestined to loathe & fear the place & its inhabitants.
   2602. tshipman Posted: July 19, 2014 at 07:09 PM (#4754509)
Morty's profile is still active, but he hasn't logged in since June 10. Kevin's, however, is "not available," which leads one to believe he's been banned again.


Just wait until the next time there's a poster who claims Larry Bird is the best SF of all time, David Ortiz deserves the HOF, steroids are an unforgivable sin, and hates Bush.

Well ... come to think of it, to rule out Andy you also have to make sure they don't use "(smile)".
   2603. Steve Treder Posted: July 19, 2014 at 07:16 PM (#4754513)
May I ask again:

We are ceding ground that will not easily -- if ever -- be regained.


Assuming this is correct, to whom are we ceding it?
   2604. BDC Posted: July 19, 2014 at 07:23 PM (#4754516)
OK, before my next trip I'm'a write a 5,000-word all-caps essay about why Rusty Greer should be in the Hall of Fame and quintuple-post it on every thread.
   2605. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 19, 2014 at 07:28 PM (#4754518)
Does anyone know what Kevin's offense was this time? He seemed to be behaving himself, at least the last time I checked.

He didn't win any points for civility the second time around, either, but I don't know that was the reason. Standards are rather low here. Perhaps the Powers That Be just belatedly wised up to the fact that Publius was Kevin?
   2606. tshipman Posted: July 19, 2014 at 07:30 PM (#4754519)
He didn't win any points for civility the second time around, either, but I don't know that was the reason.


God, I hope it was because of the ridiculous trolling he did in the NBA thread about how Rondo was better than Russell Westbrook.
   2607. Depressoteric feels Royally blue these days Posted: July 19, 2014 at 07:38 PM (#4754521)
Assuming this is correct, to whom are we ceding it?
Sorry, missed this the first time. The first thing to say is the way you frame this question implicitly assumes a binary premise that I disagree with. It isn't necessarily the case that, to the extent the US cedes metaphorical "ground" that said territory is therefore picked up in equal proportion by other state/non-state actors. In other words, the laws of conservation of energy don't necessarily apply to foreign relations: the preeminent ground held by the US in the foreign affairs of the post-WWII era is in many ways sui generis, fully capable of dissolving entirely without any other nation (or nations) picking up its slack. When existing alliance systems and frameworks decay and fall apart, it isn't as if new ones automatically spring up to take their place.

But...to the extent that the US can be said to be ceding ground that other states are taking advantage of, the two European countries who do seem to be gaining perceptible influence at our expense are Germany and Russia -- obviously in very different ways. The shootdown of MH17, interestingly, truly seems to be the first truly 'wrong foot' that Putin has made in realpolitik terms (I'm working on the assumption that it was the doing of pro-Russian separatists in Eastern Ukraine who f**ked up bigtime, not Russian military), and it will be interesting to see what develops from there. The pronounced reluctance of Germany to get behind serious (as opposed to 'targeted' and therefore mostly meaningless) sanctions, even now, is something to pay attention to. Perhaps that will change in upcoming days as public pressure on Russia mounts.
   2608. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: July 19, 2014 at 07:43 PM (#4754522)
Does anyone know what Kevin's offense was this time? He seemed to be behaving himself, at least the last time I checked.


Assuming Publius is Kevin; given history and certain short fuses for issues by the powers that be, I might go with "existing."
   2609. Steve Treder Posted: July 19, 2014 at 08:07 PM (#4754531)
The first thing to say is the way you frame this question implicitly assumes a binary premise that I disagree with.

I didn't mean to imply that. Precisely the opposite; I found the whole "ceding ground" metaphor puzzling for the very reasons you cite. Hence my question.

to the extent that the US can be said to be ceding ground that other states are taking advantage of, the two European countries who do seem to be gaining perceptible influence at our expense are Germany and Russia -- obviously in very different ways.

Well -- again the zero-sum premise is questionable -- but to the extent that it might be true, I guess my thoughts would be that (a) it's clearly not good for the world for an irresponsibly-governed Russia to gain influence, but seriously, one wonders how sustainable an increase in Russian influence can prove to be as things progress; and (b) I have a hard time seeing the problem with a responsibly-governed Germany gaining influence, as they should be among the serious leaders in Europe particularly and in the world in general.
   2610. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: July 19, 2014 at 08:28 PM (#4754538)
Where, exactly, has Russia gained influence since invading Crimea? What influence Russia leverages in Germany and Europe is more or less explicitly related to the gas pipes that have been there for decades, no? Is the argument that the Obama admin is so fickle and weakminded that Germany would have ignored the flow of Russian gas if we had done something more active in Syria? I honestly don't follow that logic at all. I Merkel and the Germans value Russian gas over Ukrainians or passenger jets, I am at a loss as to how the US is going to change that.
   2611. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: July 19, 2014 at 10:39 PM (#4754572)
A Florida woman just received a $23 billion judgement against Reynolds tobacco. Uh, OK.

link
   2612. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 20, 2014 at 12:08 AM (#4754582)
They should reduce that $23 billion to whatever it would take to bankrupt RJR permanently, and cause their competitors to pre-emptively fold in fear of the next lawsuit.

(Well, I can dream, can't I?)

-------------------------------------------------

Morty's profile is still active, but he hasn't logged in since June 10. Kevin's, however, is "not available," which leads one to believe he's been banned again.


Just wait until the next time there's a poster who claims Larry Bird is the best SF of all time, David Ortiz deserves the HOF, steroids are an unforgivable sin, and hates Bush.

Well ... come to think of it, to rule out Andy you also have to make sure they don't use "(smile)".


Ummm, it might be easier just to throw out "What American League East team is best described as being an Evil Empire?" That'll separate the contendas from the pretendas. (smile)
   2613. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 20, 2014 at 12:12 AM (#4754584)
Surely they haven't run off with one another; I'm pretty certain that Publius is several decades too old for Morty.

Causa is actually older than Kevin.

By a good 15 or so years, AAMOF. Late 60's vs early 50's.
   2614. Lassus Posted: July 20, 2014 at 09:17 AM (#4754635)
Well, I definitely got the joke, gef.
   2615. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: July 20, 2014 at 10:23 AM (#4754643)
BTW, on that tobacco award, the real number is 23.6 billion. I blew off the .6 because, what's the point? But that .6 is $600 million. That's how ridiculously big this award is. The insignificant part would probably be a record amount in itself.
   2616. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 20, 2014 at 10:43 AM (#4754644)
Snowden was hired as a computer security contractor on Obama's watch, vetted on Obama's watch, promoted on Obama's watch, and manipulated lax security to steal highly sensitive information on Obama's watch. How many Presidents get to evade responsibility for what happens while they are in office on the theory that the same might have happened if someone else had been elected?


So you are claiming Snowden wouldn't have been hired in a McCain or Romney administration, and so the NSA activities would not have become public, presumably because they would use the well known GOP skill of peering into the soul and wold have uncovered Snowden very early on.

You realize I have acknowledged it (NSA nonsense) was a train wreck, right? However it was a train that did not start with Obama, and in fact Obama did not change direction much at all from the previous administrations of either party.

Since it was a bipartisan policy (as crappy as I think it was, my team was complicit) and nothing Obama did precipitated the crisis how on earth is it his fault. Plenty of things are his fault - ACA clearly is (as much as any legislation is on the President), foreign policy in general clearly is (someone up thread was arguing for Congress getting some of that, I don't think it should - foreign policy is 90% Presidential). But the NSA nonsense spreads out to many groups.

Only a moron would think that is me excluding blame, because he is to blame for it (as I have said), but no more than the previous administrations. And I am 100% sure McCain and Romney would have had the exact same blame attached to them.

When discussing relative merits, what Obama did versus what others "should" have done it doesn't figure into the discussion, unless you have some alternative scenario where Snowden doesn't happen on someone else's watch.
   2617. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 20, 2014 at 10:43 AM (#4754645)
Well, I definitely got the joke, gef.


Me too.
   2618. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 20, 2014 at 10:45 AM (#4754647)
And by the way I am disturbed by how much I have agreed with Rickey! on the foreign policy portion of the thread lately. Maybe he is on fire, maybe I am insane. Oh well, fight on Rickey!
   2619. bobm Posted: July 20, 2014 at 11:25 AM (#4754655)
However it was a train that did not start with Obama, and in fact Obama did not change direction much at all from the previous administrations of either party.

Since it was a bipartisan policy (as crappy as I think it was, my team was complicit) and nothing Obama did precipitated the crisis how on earth is it his fault.


Obama as President has perpetuated espionage practices and civil liberties violations that were criticized by Obama as Senator and candidate. "Not changing direction much at all" as President is "his fault".

One can argue that Obama as president became privy to secret information that justified moral / ethical contortions, but it's still hypocrisy and complicity IMO.
   2620. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 20, 2014 at 11:43 AM (#4754659)
It's all over the news today that the Russians not only supplied the SAM that shot down the plane, but there may also have been Russian "experts" crewing the weapon.
   2621. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: July 20, 2014 at 11:59 AM (#4754661)
I've been of the opinion that the calls of "What was Malaysia Airlines thinking in flying over the disputed area" as unfair and unjustified. But yesterday, Miles O'Brien on CNN made an interesting point. Sure, the no-fly zone extended to only 32,000 ft, and MH17 was at 33,000, so all good and legal. But what happens if they have a problem, say lose an engine or have a rapid decompression? Now they have to descend into the no-fly zone. IOW, what they did was legal but still carried undue risk. Other airlines like BA and Air France were avoiding that airspace altogether, at a cost of slightly longer and costlier flights.

I'm not saying (an O'Brien wasn't saying) that they are at all to blame, no one should expect that getting shot down is a possibility, but maybe they do carry some slight bit of contributory negligence. Perhaps not legally, but maybe morally. Had they been a little bit more prudent and a little less stingy, they wouldn't have been there in the first place.
   2622. Steve Treder Posted: July 20, 2014 at 12:31 PM (#4754672)
I'm not saying (an O'Brien wasn't saying) that they are at all to blame, no one should expect that getting shot down is a possibility, but maybe they do carry some slight bit of contributory negligence. Perhaps not legally, but maybe morally. Had they been a little bit more prudent and a little less stingy, they wouldn't have been there in the first place.

My understanding is Malaysia Airlines was already in deep financial trouble (especially since losing that plane earlier this year), and with this they'll likely end up in bankruptcy.
   2623. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 20, 2014 at 01:24 PM (#4754685)
The West's failure to secure the crime scene and assure the humane treatment of the victims is an abject embarrassment. It's beyond belief that the Russians and their proxies are putting bodies in train cars, moving them to parts unknown, and trampling all over the area.
   2624. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 20, 2014 at 02:19 PM (#4754701)
IOW, what they did was legal but still carried undue risk. Other airlines like BA and Air France were avoiding that airspace altogether, at a cost of slightly longer and costlier flights.

It was a route other airlines were routinely using on flights from Europe to Southeast Asia - something like 300 flights a week. Airlines also fly over Iraq & Afghanistan without incident. The blame here looks to belong to the Russians and their thuggish Ukrainian-separatist allies, not an airline flying a well-established international air route.
   2625. tshipman Posted: July 20, 2014 at 02:27 PM (#4754704)
It was a route other airlines were routinely using on flights from Europe to Southeast Asia - something like 300 flights a week. Airlines also fly over Iraq & Afghanistan without incident. The blame here looks to belong to the Russians and their thuggish Ukrainian-separatist allies, not an airline flying a well-established international air route.


Agree 100%

The West's failure to secure the crime scene and assure the humane treatment of the victims is an abject embarrassment. It's beyond belief that the Russians and their proxies are putting bodies in train cars, moving them to parts unknown, and trampling all over the area.


...? SBB is beyond parody.
   2626. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 20, 2014 at 02:46 PM (#4754710)
Agree 100%


Yes.
   2627. bobm Posted: July 20, 2014 at 02:56 PM (#4754714)
NY Times: Income Inequality Is Not Rising Globally. It's Falling.

Still, to the extent that political worry about rising domestic inequality is justified, it suggests yet another reframing. If our domestic politics can’t handle changes in income distribution, maybe the problem isn’t that capitalism is fundamentally flawed but rather that our political institutions are inflexible. Our politics need not collapse under the pressure of a world that, over all, is becoming wealthier and fairer.

Many egalitarians push for policies to redistribute some income within nations, including the United States. That’s worth considering, but with a cautionary note. Such initiatives will prove more beneficial on the global level if there is more wealth to redistribute. In the United States, greater wealth would maintain the nation’s ability to invest abroad, buy foreign products, absorb immigrants and generate innovation, with significant benefit for global income and equality.

In other words, the true egalitarian should follow the economist’s inclination to seek wealth-maximizing policies, and that means worrying less about inequality within the nation.

Yes, we might consider some useful revisions to current debates on inequality. But globally minded egalitarians should be more optimistic about recent history, realizing that capitalism and economic growth are continuing their historical roles as the greatest and most effective equalizers the world has ever known.
   2628. greenback calls it soccer Posted: July 20, 2014 at 03:08 PM (#4754716)
Tyler Cowen isn't exactly "NY Times."
   2629. Mefisto Posted: July 20, 2014 at 03:20 PM (#4754722)
For a counterpoint to Cowen, see here.
   2630. Mefisto Posted: July 20, 2014 at 03:21 PM (#4754723)
SBB is beyond parody.


The blame-America-first crowd never rests.
   2631. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: July 20, 2014 at 03:23 PM (#4754725)
It was a route other airlines were routinely using on flights from Europe to Southeast Asia - something like 300 flights a week. Airlines also fly over Iraq & Afghanistan without incident. The blame here looks to belong to the Russians and their thuggish Ukrainian-separatist allies, not an airline flying a well-established international air route.


Nuance isn't your strong suit is it? Of course the blame goes to the Russians and their thuggish Ukrainian-separatist allies. The fact remains that if Malaysia Airlines had been the slightest bit prudent, like BA and Air France among others, and thought that flying above a 32,000 feet and below no fly zone might not be the best choice, where any number of unforseen circumstances would cause them to penetrate the prohibited airspace, they wouldn't have been there in the first place. It's not about shifting blame to the victim, but pointing out that a less than ideal flight plan put them in a sport where they became the victim.

And higher up the blame chain than MA, is the airspace governing body who thought that routing planes above a 32,000 feet and below prohibited airspace was a good idea in the first place.
   2632. McCoy Posted: July 20, 2014 at 03:58 PM (#4754735)
How many buttons of flare is the minimum again?
   2633. bobm Posted: July 20, 2014 at 04:03 PM (#4754737)
How many buttons of flare is the minimum again?

Depends on how many missiles the Russians fire at your plane.
   2634. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 20, 2014 at 04:30 PM (#4754748)
Nuance isn't your strong suit is it? Of course the blame goes to the Russians and their thuggish Ukrainian-separatist allies. The fact remains that if Malaysia Airlines had been the slightest bit prudent, like BA and Air France among others, and thought that flying above a 32,000 feet and below no fly zone might not be the best choice, where any number of unforseen circumstances would cause them to penetrate the prohibited airspace, they wouldn't have been there in the first place. It's not about shifting blame to the victim, but pointing out that a less than ideal flight plan put them in a sport where they became the victim.

And higher up the blame chain than MA, is the airspace governing body who thought that routing planes above a 32,000 feet and below prohibited airspace was a good idea in the first place.


Oh, brother.
   2635. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 20, 2014 at 04:43 PM (#4754752)
As if the criminals who fired the missile had any authority to enforce prohibited airspace rules, and as if the fact that the plane was in prohibited airspace had the first thing to do with it being shot down.

Jesus.
   2636. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 20, 2014 at 04:45 PM (#4754753)
The fact remains that if Malaysia Airlines had been the slightest bit prudent, like BA and Air France among others, and thought that flying above a 32,000 feet and below no fly zone might not be the best choice, where any number of unforseen circumstances would cause them to penetrate the prohibited airspace, they wouldn't have been there in the first place.

This seems seriously misleading. According to numerous published reports, most airlines didn't alter their routing to avoid overflying Ukraine before the Malaysian Airliner was shot down. It's not like the Malaysians did something different than the vast majority of airlines, or rejected warnings by the international aviation authorities.
   2637. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 20, 2014 at 04:55 PM (#4754758)
The people who shot the plane down are international criminals. Mass murderers. They should be captured and tried.
   2638. greenback calls it soccer Posted: July 20, 2014 at 05:09 PM (#4754762)
Dean Baker might be the only person on the planet who could convince me to vote for Sarah Palin. Even when I think he has a point, I want to distance myself from his argument.

   2639. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: July 20, 2014 at 07:23 PM (#4754834)
With the glaring, 120pt, flashing font caveat that I believe in every minute detail this plane was shot down by Russian-supplied, Russian-backed, and possibly Russian-manned BUK surface to air missiles: I was watching CNN while doing cool down at the gym yesterday, and some random spook-guy noted that we are getting some insanely high quality video and audio evidence, more or less on demand, from the Ukrainian agencies. For example, all of the intercepted phone calls with the damning audio is in stereo, which would require that they be tapping the main exchange of the cell carrier. (Not that it's out of the question that they are.)

He just noted that the evidence we're getting in the news cycle is what he would have called "too good to be true" when he were doing intelligence analysis.
   2640. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 20, 2014 at 09:14 PM (#4754883)
and some random spook-guy noted that we are getting some insanely high quality video and audio evidence, more or less on demand, from the Ukrainian agencies. For example, all of the intercepted phone calls with the damning audio is in stereo, which would require that they be tapping the main exchange of the cell carrier. (Not that it's out of the question that they are.)

He just noted that the evidence we're getting in the news cycle is what he would have called "too good to be true" when he were doing intelligence analysis.


Wouldn't it make sense that the Ukrainians would have incredible intelligence inside their own country? I'm sure they left plenty of agents in the contested region, and have sympathizers in every single village.
   2641. tshipman Posted: July 20, 2014 at 10:12 PM (#4754913)
Wouldn't it make sense that the Ukrainians would have incredible intelligence inside their own country? I'm sure they left plenty of agents in the contested region, and have sympathizers in every single village.


It is also at least possible that NSA has recorded every single call in Ukraine since March. The Obama admin might or might not be feeding it to the Ukranians so they can leak it.

No idea if this is occurring, but seems at least vaguely plausible.
   2642. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 20, 2014 at 10:29 PM (#4754921)
Do you even need the evidence from the Ukrainians? Look at what the separatists & Russians have done. The previous shoot-downs, the deleted tweets, the closing off the area, the resistance to outside observers, the lack of investigation. If the separatists & Russians really thought the Ukrainian Government had shot down the plane, they'd be calling in the whole world to prove their point. Just the opposite is happening.
   2643. greenback calls it soccer Posted: July 20, 2014 at 10:40 PM (#4754928)
If the separatists & Russians really thought the Ukrainian Government had shot down the plane, they'd be calling in the whole world to prove their point.

The Russians and rebels really don't want Western investigators camping out on Ukraine's southeastern border, because the missile strike isn't the only thing they'd be investigating, overtly or otherwise.
   2644. bunyon Posted: July 21, 2014 at 02:31 AM (#4754980)
I'm not trying to shift blame, either, but I was shocked to find out lots of airliners have been flying over Ukraine. And Iraq and Afghanistan. I would think you'd avoid them for no other reason than you don't always take the great circle route if it takes you way the hell out of the way of normal shipping: if you go down, or must make an emergency landing, you're in deep trouble.

That doesn't give anyone leave to shoot them down, of course and the guys who did should obviously be brought to justice. I'm just saying if I were an airline executive, I'd make a different choice. And assumed that was how things were working.
   2645. bunyon Posted: July 21, 2014 at 03:07 AM (#4754982)
Also, Putin seems to have made an address to the Russian people that takes a much softer tone than his statements last week. The European PMs basically ripped him to shreds on the phone over the weekend. No idea as to the veracity of those reports.
   2646. SteveF Posted: July 21, 2014 at 04:48 AM (#4754985)
I'm just saying if I were an airline executive, I'd make a different choice. And assumed that was how things were working.

I can't imagine they are used to such considerations in other countries. The US has been on the shooting end of one of those kinds of mistakes, so people in charge of US airlines are probably more attuned to the need for caution. The US was actually one of the few countries whose airlines were avoiding those flight path as you alluded.
   2647. bunyon Posted: July 21, 2014 at 08:13 AM (#4755003)
You're probably right but I find it disturbing to think people are only looking to their own national history to learn such things. I'd just think flying over areas of active military conflict involving technologically advanced countries to be inherently alarming.
   2648. Greg K Posted: July 21, 2014 at 09:39 AM (#4755024)
You're probably right but I find it disturbing to think people are only looking to their own national history to learn such things. I'd just think flying over areas of active military conflict involving technologically advanced countries to be inherently alarming.

As a passenger I probably wouldn't have thought much about the flight plan before taking off, as I'm not a super thoughtful guy. But if they had one of those live-maps tracking the progress in the cabin I'd probably have a fairly uneasy hour or two as I noticed where we were.
   2649. Dan The Mediocre Posted: July 21, 2014 at 09:55 AM (#4755029)
As a passenger I probably wouldn't have thought much about the flight plan before taking off, as I'm not a super thoughtful guy. But if they had one of those live-maps tracking the progress in the cabin I'd probably have a fairly uneasy hour or two as I noticed where we were.


Being shot down is probably the last thing I'd think about on an airplane. It's much more likely to go down on it's own, and I don't even think about that at all. I could see why US or Ukrainian flights would be diverted, but I don't see why a Dutch plane going to Malaysia would think that they were at any more risk than normal.
   2650. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 21, 2014 at 09:56 AM (#4755030)
and some random spook-guy noted that we are getting some insanely high quality video and audio evidence


Technology, the quality of video and audio evidence available to law enforcement and other investigators (insurance investigators, etc) is not just vastly better than 25 years ago it's much better than it was just 5 years ago.

   2651. Greg K Posted: July 21, 2014 at 09:57 AM (#4755032)
Being shot down is probably the last thing I'd think about on an airplane. It's much more likely to go down on it's own, and I don't even think about that at all.

You and I are very different fliers!

(Although admittedly I don't think I've ever, in all of my flight panics, thought about being shot down. More the bolded part stands out for me as a contrast between us).
   2652. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 21, 2014 at 10:00 AM (#4755033)
But if they had one of those live-maps tracking the progress in the cabin I'd probably have a fairly uneasy hour or two as I noticed where we were.

That happened to me a little less than 2 years ago ion a British Airways flight, took us right over an active war zone, nothing happend (I'm still here of course) but I remember thinking WTF...

the return flight a few days later (same airline) gave that same area a WIDE berth
   2653. Mefisto Posted: July 21, 2014 at 10:06 AM (#4755036)
A more detailed, and very interesting, response to Tyler Cowen is here.
   2654. Greg K Posted: July 21, 2014 at 10:16 AM (#4755039)
That happened to me a little less than 2 years ago ion a British Airways flight, took us right over an active war zone, nothing happend (I'm still here of course) but I remember thinking WTF...

A family friend was once flying across the Pacific with his son, who was following the LiveMap. And at one point the son said "hey we're turning around!" (which wasn't a planned stop). He thought that was a bit weird, so the next time a flight attendant came by he asked about it, and she said they didn't have enough fuel to get to Sydney (or wherever it was they were going), so they were turning around to Fiji where hopefully there was a landing strip for them.

Which brought to mind
A) Hopefully?!?!
and
B) Coming up with a less alarming lie would probably be the correct move there.
   2655. Lassus Posted: July 21, 2014 at 10:18 AM (#4755040)
I'll echo Greg K. And while I've never thought about being shot down, I've never flown over an active war zone. If I was about to, I have no doubt that would be added to my "I hate being in these flying skyscraper coffins" mindset from boarding to walking through the gate at my destination.
   2656. zonk Posted: July 21, 2014 at 10:26 AM (#4755051)
A family friend was once flying across the Pacific with his son, who was following the LiveMap. And at one point the son said "hey we're turning around!" (which wasn't a planned stop). He thought that was a bit weird, so the next time a flight attendant came by he asked about it, and she said they didn't have enough fuel to get to Sydney (or wherever it was they were going), so they were turning around to Fiji where hopefully there was a landing strip for them.

Which brought to mind
A) Hopefully?!?!
and
B) Coming up with a less alarming lie would probably be the correct move there.


Heh - this.

Flying into Dallas coming back from Mexico, the pilot comes on the PA and announces not just there are high winds in Dallas and a directional shift has caused them to swap takeoffs/landing directions, but also that he's going to "attempt" (his exact words) a sort of corkscrew type landing where the approach is perpendicular to the runway with a quick 90 degree turn just before touching down and to top it all off, he adds "my first attempt at such a landing, so wish me luck".

I'm not a very calm flyer to begin with -- this did NOT enhance my calm.... and being just a stopover on my way back to Chicago, did not exactly make me thrilled to take off again 90 minutes later.
   2657. Dan The Mediocre Posted: July 21, 2014 at 10:28 AM (#4755056)
You and I are very different fliers!


I purposely distract myself or else crashing is the only thing I think about. I have a hard time on roller coasters because I always envision that on the next turn we'll separate from the track and crash in the parking lot.
   2658. Lassus Posted: July 21, 2014 at 10:31 AM (#4755061)
#2656 - I don't know what I'd say to the pilot when leaving that plane, but I'm pretty sure it would be \"#### you".
   2659. Ron J2 Posted: July 21, 2014 at 10:32 AM (#4755062)
Also Snapper, your point about Kursk overlooks two important operational factors. The Tiger and the Panther. Yeah, the Panther was a disaster at rollout, but the Tiger was a game changer where ever it was deployed.

The Tiger was designed to be invulnerable to the T-34 at standoff distances and was used at the tip of the wedge in the successful attacks. The attacks that weren't led by Tigers were utter failures. Those that were did achieve some success -- until their Tigers were largely used up.

And the Tigers and Pathers were a huge part of the success in subsequent mobile defenses. The T-34 was a fine tank by the standards of the early part of the war, but were badly outclassed by the newer generation of German tanks. When they were used by skillful commanders the new generation of German tanks made the Russians pay a very heavy price.
   2660. Ron J2 Posted: July 21, 2014 at 10:44 AM (#4755073)
The blame here looks to belong to the Russians and their thuggish Ukrainian-separatist allies, not an airline flying a well-established international air route.


It was a long, long time ago, but I know that when the 6 day war broke out BOAC changed the routes of all of their plains to stay out of any conflict zones.

I know this because we were waiting in an airport for more than half a day while BOAC scrambled to come up with new routes.

Yeah, different times, but I think there's an awful lot of merit.
   2661. Shredder Posted: July 21, 2014 at 10:50 AM (#4755075)
Flying into Dallas coming back from Mexico, the pilot comes on the PA and announces not just there are high winds in Dallas and a directional shift has caused them to swap takeoffs/landing directions, but also that he's going to "attempt" (his exact words) a sort of corkscrew type landing where the approach is perpendicular to the runway with a quick 90 degree turn just before touching down and to top it all off, he adds "my first attempt at such a landing, so wish me luck".

I'm not a very calm flyer to begin with -- this did NOT enhance my calm.... and being just a stopover on my way back to Chicago, did not exactly make me thrilled to take off again 90 minutes later.
Meh. Those guys know what they're doing for the most part. I remember flying back to Chicago from Long Beach a couple years ago and was emailing my friend from the gate before take off. He says "you know we're in the middle of a blizzard, right?" My response: "Dude, I don't fly the plane. I just got on when they tell me to, those guys do whatever they have to do, and hopefully we land somewhere". So far it's worked out O.K. Besides, if it's my time, then it's my time. I've had a pretty good run.
   2662. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: July 21, 2014 at 10:52 AM (#4755077)
the return flight a few days later (same airline) gave that same area a WIDE berth

A family friend was once flying across the Pacific with his son, who was following the LiveMap. And at one point the son said "hey we're turning around!" (which wasn't a planned stop). He thought that was a bit weird, so the next time a flight attendant came by he asked about it, and she said they didn't have enough fuel to get to Sydney (or wherever it was they were going), so they were turning around to Fiji where hopefully there was a landing strip for them.

Which brought to mind
A) Hopefully?!?!
and
B) Coming up with a less alarming lie would probably be the correct move there.

Flying into Dallas coming back from Mexico, the pilot comes on the PA and announces not just there are high winds in Dallas and a directional shift has caused them to swap takeoffs/landing directions, but also that he's going to "attempt" (his exact words) a sort of corkscrew type landing where the approach is perpendicular to the runway with a quick 90 degree turn just before touching down and to top it all off, he adds "my first attempt at such a landing, so wish me luck".


Heh. You laymen are all alike : )

On the first one, it's possible the change in routing had something to do with the conflict below. It's equally or more possible it had more to do with weather, winds aloft, or normal traffic flow. It's easy to read too much into what may be a routine or insignificant change.

On the divert, first rule of flying is that flight attendants know nothing about aircraft operation. They are given no training in that area, and most don't care enough to learn even the basics. It was poor phrasing on her part, which is par for the course. Of course the flight deck crew knows where the nearest divert fields are.

The last one describes a circling approach. Not a routine maneuver, but not unheard of either. Some airports, like in Tegucigalpa, Honduras, have that as the main approach. In this case, "attempt to land" does not mean either a safe landing or crash and burn, but attempt the approach, and if not lined up properly after the maneuver, go around and fit into the normal traffic flow. The captain said too much, and used too much jargon, which happens all too often. Most of the time it's better to just keep your mouth shut.

   2663. Lassus Posted: July 21, 2014 at 11:22 AM (#4755118)
Most of the time it's better to just keep your mouth shut.

We were making some kind of approach towards LaGuardia one time when the plane (a regular mid-size, I know nothing about planes, Maybe a 737, maybe smaller) made - to the layperson - a pretty severe hairpin that made most of the plane gasp and laugh. As we were walking out, all I asked the pilot, without even being specific, "That couldn't have been normal, right?", and all he did was wink.
   2664. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: July 21, 2014 at 11:26 AM (#4755124)
Aaack! Obama just used "begging the question" incorrectly:

"...The Russian backed Ukrainian separatists continue to remove evidence from the crash site, which begs the question 'What are they trying to hide?'"

And for those grammar pedants among us, Weird Al has a new album out, complete with videos

Word Crimes
   2665. Howie Menckel Posted: July 21, 2014 at 11:28 AM (#4755128)

the battle to save "begging the question" has been lost, alas. its begs the question of why you won't just go through the stages of grief and then move on.

:)
   2666. JL Posted: July 21, 2014 at 11:29 AM (#4755129)
You're probably right but I find it disturbing to think people are only looking to their own national history to learn such things. I'd just think flying over areas of active military conflict involving technologically advanced countries to be inherently alarming.


A map I saw indicated that the flight was following a fairly common path for most of the time, but then stayed north at the end (for whatever reasons). The route that others took seemed to avoid much of the area where fighting is happening. Not sure why this flight did not stick to that route (perhaps weather or something).
   2667. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: July 21, 2014 at 11:30 AM (#4755131)
My worst flying experiences:

- Flying from San Francisco to Baltimore in 2004 with the seat belt light on the entire 7 hour flight. It was a rough flight and afterwards, I had petechiae all over my face.

- Flying from Hartford to Philadelphia in 2010. There apparently was a bit of a traffic jam and we kept circling forever. The pilot helpfully told us not to worry because we had "some" gas left.

- Flying from St. Louis to Baltimore in 2011. The pilot came out to us before the flight to let us know that it would be a rough flight, but not to worry because he was like Luke Skywalker. Being in the first row and unable, as usual, to keep my mouth shut, I commented that Luke Skywalker crashed his plane into a swamp. Pilot rolled his eyes and said "well, not that part." But of course, I'm thinking of that the whole flight, seeing us landing in the Potomac or the Chesapeake Bay with each bump in the plane.
   2668. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: July 21, 2014 at 11:31 AM (#4755132)
And for those grammar pedants among us, Weird Al has a new album out, complete with videos

Word Crimes


It's kind of funny that Weird Al's essentially the last 80s musician whose new stuff is actually still culturally relevant.
   2669. Greg K Posted: July 21, 2014 at 11:35 AM (#4755135)
It's kind of funny that Weird Al's essentially the last 80s musician whose new stuff is actually still culturally relevant.

William Shatner used to have a talk show, the entire premise of which was that he'd get whoever came on to have some sort of unwanted emotional breakdown. Either by annoying them so much that they'd snap at him, or by getting them to break into tears.

With Weird Al he pretty much refused to talk about anything other than Al's dead parents for half an hour. Seeing Weird Al well up may be one of the most traumatizing things I've ever experienced.

Aside from flying of course.
   2670. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: July 21, 2014 at 11:36 AM (#4755138)
I love Weird Al. Saw him in concert a few years ago. Fantastic show.

It's kind of funny that Weird Al's essentially the last 80s musician whose new stuff is actually still culturally relevant.


Here's one from his last album which is a perfect blend of the retro and current.
   2671. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: July 21, 2014 at 11:37 AM (#4755140)
Haven't seen this anywhere else, but interesting if true.

In other words: Since the Russian interceptors had downed a Su-25 on the previous days, the Ukrainian escorted all military and civil flights over eastern Ukraine on Jul. 17. Including MH17.

“During the UEFA 2012, the 831st TAB and its Flankers had same role, during those competitions they had duty to escort the airliners in FL330 and other routes in case emergency. They played same role during the Sochi Winter Olympics in Russia. They were airborne and they even escorted a hijacked airplane. They were also ready to provide security of all passenger airplanes over Ukraine. They are now following same procedure and they could protect all of the airplanes over Ukraine in-front of Russians since Jul 16.”

Provided the Su-27s were really escorting or (more likely) watching from their CAP station many, if not all, civil flights over Eastern Ukraine for the first time ever on July 17, in the wake of the downing of the Su-25, the operators inside the Buk may have mistaken the Boeing 777 shadowed by or near two Flankers for a high-value plane of the Ukrainian Air Force.

On their radar screens, the sight of a large plane with two accompanying (or circling in CAP not too far away) fighter jets was completely new and may only mean the Ukrainians were escorting an important plane. And that would be the reason why they downed it without spending too much time analyzing its transponder code and altitude.
   2672. Dan The Mediocre Posted: July 21, 2014 at 11:43 AM (#4755144)
Here's one from his last album which is a perfect blend of the retro and current


I cannot believe I have never heard about that. He does a great Morrison.
   2673. Group Captain Mandrake Posted: July 21, 2014 at 11:47 AM (#4755147)
You should see his Dylan
   2674. BDC Posted: July 21, 2014 at 11:50 AM (#4755154)
I'm going to use "Word Crimes" to kick off my grammar courses in the Fall. I think it's pretty funny, especially when you take it as a parody of people who get uptight about grammar. Most of my English-teacher friends who've heard it, though, seem to take it straightforwardly as a catalog of everything that's wrong with today's linguistic youth.
   2675. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 21, 2014 at 12:04 PM (#4755167)
I'm still trying to cope with AP's new decree that states be spelled out in place names, as in "Montgomery, Alabama," rather than "Montgomery, Ala." I guess the reasoning is that people are too stupid to understand abbreviations anymore.

At least they didn't go the other direction & mandate use of the USPS abbreviations, i.e. "Montgomery, AL." Seems to me that was being considered a year or so ago, but if so I've done my best to blot out that memory.
   2676. Lassus Posted: July 21, 2014 at 12:12 PM (#4755177)
That songs mentions two of my favorite things in the space of five seconds, the Oxford comma and Prince, so it gets a thumbs up.
   2677. Steve Treder Posted: July 21, 2014 at 12:20 PM (#4755184)
Flying into Calgary a few years ago. Thundershowery weather, extreme winds. Our plane is getting crazily whipsawed while turning even for the approach for landing. We circle numerous times, each time having to abort the raucous descent. God it was hairy.

At long last the wind apparently paused, and we were able to make the turn and execute a merely bumpy-as-hell landing.

I'm normally the calmest of flyers, but I was definitely wondering whether I had all my affairs properly in order.
   2678. Lassus Posted: July 21, 2014 at 12:39 PM (#4755201)
Ron Paul looking to take his son out of whatever running he had going for him: Ron Paul Defends Russia after Malaysian Plane Crash
   2679. steagles Posted: July 21, 2014 at 12:44 PM (#4755207)
i'm sure there will be at least one poster here who gets a laugh out of this.


   2680. tshipman Posted: July 21, 2014 at 12:46 PM (#4755208)
I mean, not like Paul wasn't already in full on crazy-grandpa mode, but wow:

"They will not report that neither Russia nor the separatists in eastern Ukraine have anything to gain but everything to lose by shooting down a passenger liner full of civilians. They will not report that the Ukrainian government has much to gain by pinning the attack on Russia, and that the Ukrainian prime minister has already expressed his pleasure that Russia is being blamed for the attack," he continued.


Love this note at the end:
Paul's son, Sen. Rand Paul (R-Kentucky) is widely seen as a possible presidential candidate in 2016. Business Insider reached out to Paul's office to ask if he agreed with his father's take on the plane crash. As of this writing, we have not received a response.


lol.

   2681. spike Posted: July 21, 2014 at 12:49 PM (#4755210)
And the money quote... "Of course it is entirely possible that the Obama administration and the US media has it right this time, and Russia or the separatists in eastern Ukraine either purposely or inadvertently shot down this aircraft"

Hi-larity
   2682. villageidiom Posted: July 21, 2014 at 12:59 PM (#4755222)
While Weird Al is being linked in this thread, I'm surprised nobody linked to his video for "Foil" in response to Ron Paul. (I'm not digging up YouTube links from work, so someone else would have to. Sorry.)
   2683. BDC Posted: July 21, 2014 at 01:08 PM (#4755231)
Montgomery, Alabama

For some reason I remember somebody I knew in Princeton, New Jersey, years ago, announcing that they were going to Stratford for spring break. "Oooh, Stratford-upon-Avon?" someone asked. "No," they said, "Stratford-upon-Long-Island-Sound."
   2684. spike Posted: July 21, 2014 at 01:26 PM (#4755242)
Nice take on something I've been musing on for the last few weeks - if in fact there is going to be a Republican blowout in the midterms, it sure is taking it's sweet time to manifest itself. latest polls have Nunn, Hagan, Landrieu, Grimes, and Begich running ahead, Braley tied, Udall down 2 and Pryor down 4. You'd think Team Red would be pulling away by now if a landslide was in the making, not that it can't still happen of course.

Goodbye to the Republican Wave?
   2685. Ron J2 Posted: July 21, 2014 at 02:08 PM (#4755267)
#2684 Wouldn't take a big shift for it to be a huge year for Team Red. Hasn't happened yet, may not happen (polling at this point only explains ~75% of the variations in Senate races), but basically there are a lot more downside scenarios for Team Blue.
   2686. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 21, 2014 at 02:19 PM (#4755276)
From the link in 2684:

There’s even precedent for the race to break over the last few months. In 2006, the full advantage for the Democrats didn’t become clear until October, after the Mark Foley scandal, and in 2008, they didn’t take off until mid-September, after the financial crisis. In 2010, the Republicans didn’t begin to gain a decisive edge on the generic ballot or in previously competitive races, like in Ohio and Wisconsin, until August.


Minor quibbles
the RCP generic ballot results only go as early as September 2006- but the Dems had a clear lead before the Mark Foley thing
The Dems had a blowout lead in the 2008 Generic Congressional Ballot all year, except for a brief period after the GOP Convention, when it dropped to only 4-5 points
The GOP lead pretty much all of 2010 except for a brief period in May/June, but yeah the lead didn't look like a blow out until August
I'll add 2012- neither party had a lead of more than 2 at any point during 2012.

The TFA the asks, gee why isn't there a GOP wave coming, Obama's unpopular, he's a lame duck/mid-terms etc... and the says, hey maybe it's that the GOP is unpopular too...
Well, Duh.

   2687. zenbitz Posted: July 21, 2014 at 02:27 PM (#4755280)
With no glasses and hair down, I look just like weird Al. Its quite disturbing.
   2688. spike Posted: July 21, 2014 at 02:31 PM (#4755285)
2685, of course it can still be a big year for the GOP, and of course there are more worse scenarios for the Democrats, as I stipulated. The point is, how is it possible they are struggling in GA and KY, and how come the vulnerable Dems are still in the game in so many races? They just can't seem to put anyone away outside of WV/MT/SD.
   2689. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 21, 2014 at 02:34 PM (#4755288)
#2684 Wouldn't take a big shift for it to be a huge year for Team Red. Hasn't happened yet, may not happen


Oh it's very close in many states, if the voting goes 1-2% more favorable to the GOP than the Polls currently show, the Senate could go 53-47 or 54-46 GOP and YC will get to do his bow and "I told you so" victory dance.

I think 2014 is the type of year where the national mood could ordinarily lead to a wave year - but won't because there's no focus point to funnel that wave- who's pushing the agenda?
Ordinarily you say the President's party- but that's really not the case here-
DC is gridlocked
the House is GOP controlled and they keep yapping "Benghazi!" and voting for stuff that gets tabled by the Senate without a vote
The Senate? The Senate is functionally paralyzed, the only thing of note it's done in 1+ years was a partial lifting of the filibuster rules
Sure Obama is the President and foreign policy and all that- but aside from his various ACA workarounds what is his admin actually doing to advance its agenda? (I mean in reality not what the wingnut echo chamber thinks he's doing)

You have people who think that voting against the status quo means voting for the GOP- but you also have people who think the reverse- and neither side has enough #s to really upturn the cart
   2690. Ron J2 Posted: July 21, 2014 at 02:40 PM (#4755294)
#2689 Yeah that's pretty much my point. The current state of affairs is almost a worst case for the Republicans. And there's at minimum a 30% chance that YC gets the wave he so confidently expects.
   2691. tshipman Posted: July 21, 2014 at 02:54 PM (#4755306)
The current state of affairs is almost a worst case for the Republicans.


Worst case for Republicans is an economic rebound.
Second worst case is general peace abroad.

Rs have gotten somewhat lucky that they can point to the world and say, "See, bad stuff is happening!" while getting to gloss over counterfactuals. That is the privilege of the party out of power.

Both sides seem to have upside opportunities: significant economic rebound means a bump of 2-3 points for Ds, allowing them to lose perhaps only two seats (or neutral) in the senate and pick up seats in the house. Another bad quarter or international incident could mean a bump of 2-3 points for Rs allowing them to pick up 8-10 seats.

Both of those events seem reasonably likely.
   2692. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 21, 2014 at 02:59 PM (#4755314)
. . . and how come the vulnerable Dems are still in the game in so many races? They just can't seem to put anyone away outside of WV/MT/SD.

Money and name recognition are still helping Democrats at this stage of the race, but I doubt the prognosis is going to be that good for incumbent Democratic Senators that are currently barely breaking 40% in the polls, even if that has them about even or barely ahead of their lesser known challengers.
   2693. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 21, 2014 at 03:04 PM (#4755321)
. . . the House is GOP controlled and they keep yapping "Benghazi!" and voting for stuff that gets tabled by the Senate without a vote

Like a budget & regular appropriation bills? That's probably an area that the Senate gets judged more harshly than the House, not that voters are terribly focused on such.
   2694. tshipman Posted: July 21, 2014 at 03:21 PM (#4755326)
Money and name recognition are still helping ... but I doubt the prognosis is going to be that good for incumbent ... Senators that are currently barely breaking 40% in the polls, even if that has them about even or barely ahead of their lesser known challengers.


I agree, it doesn't look great for McConnell at this point.
   2695. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 21, 2014 at 04:24 PM (#4755351)
I see what you did in 2694 :-)

And there's at minimum a 30% chance that YC gets the wave he so confidently expects.


I see either's party's odds of getting a "Wave" at under 15% and shrinking-

Of course you have to define "wave"
imho a "wave" year is when one party does at least 5 points better than usual pretty much across the board- states/districts that usually go 55:45 GOP do 60:40 GOP, usually 45:55 GOP go 50:50... etc.
That does not seem to be happening*

But the GOP doesn't need a wave to pick up 4 to 6 Senate seats- they can regain the Senate even with a "neutral" year- by taking incumbent Dem seats in otherwise GOP leaning states.

A GOP wave would see them gain 7+ Senate seats, a Dem wave would see them holding serve or only LOSING 1-2 seats


*Primary challengers are doing much better than usual this cycle- pretty much across the board- of course in most cases that simply means the challenger is losing by 35:65 rather than by 20:80, this it seems is mostly occurring in GOP primaries and will mean nothing in the general (The GOP challenger voters will still vote for the GOP incumbent against the Dem in the General) or it could mean an across the board problem for incumbents (GOP and Dem) in the general. Of course a non-partisan anti-incumbent "wave" would likely leave the ideological composition of Congress unscathed.
   2696. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 21, 2014 at 06:10 PM (#4755387)
A GOP wave would see them gain 7+ Senate seats, a Dem wave would see them holding serve or only LOSING 1-2 seats

Any kind of genuine Democratic "wave" should have them picking up 25-35 House seats, which seems extremely unlikely. One can quibble about how much the Senate map favors the GOP this year, but if the Democrats are gaining support compared to 2010, they should make inroads in the House. Personally, I think that it is more likely the Republicans exceed their 2010 total, gaining a bit more than the 8 seats the Dems won back in 2012. The post-election question might be, if the Democrats fall below 190 seats for the first time since 1947-49, will they ditch Pelosi?
   2697. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: July 21, 2014 at 06:17 PM (#4755393)
One can quibble about how much the Senate map favors the GOP this year, but if the Democrats are gaining support compared to 2010, they should make inroads in the House. Personally, I think that it is more likely the Republicans exceed their 2010 total, gaining a bit more than the 8 seats the Dems won back in 2012.


I'm starting to think that maybe the RNC should hire you
   2698. BDC Posted: July 21, 2014 at 07:31 PM (#4755422)
Apologies if this has been posted upthread, but I don't think it has. A Republican primary candidate for Congress, Timothy Ray Murray, lost to the incumbent Frank Lucas, by 83% to 5%. But he is protesting the election because … I'd better let his own website explain why:

I, Mr. Timothy Ray Murray am in dispute about the June 24, 2014 primary election as the votes being switched with Rep. Lucas. This is because Rep. Frank D. Lucas died and has been substituted in public as a look alike. I will continue legal correction through the Federal Courts and possibly Oklahoma Courts as needed to correct to voter selected Representation for Oklahoma’s {sic} 3rd District. As Ambassador for The People of The United States, I will continue to pursue for The People of Oklahoma correct voter Representation in the U.S. House and U.S. Senate of The People’s {sic} voice.


Other coverage says Murray claims that Rep. Lucas was executed on a "white stage" in the Ukraine several years ago, and has been replaced in Congress by a robot body double. Murray says that one of his advantages as a Congressman is that he is a human being.

If I hadn't known moderately less lucid Congressional candidates here in Texas, I would doubt this item. He polled very weakly, of course, but at that 3,442 people voted for Murray. Human beings all!
   2699. Dan The Mediocre Posted: July 21, 2014 at 07:40 PM (#4755424)
Apologies if this has been posted upthread, but I don't think it has. A Republican primary candidate for Congress, Timothy Ray Murray, lost to the incumbent Frank Lucas, by 83% to 5%. But he is protesting the election because … I'd better let his own website explain why:


I believe it was posted in last month's thread. I can still remember a guy named Tony Zirkle going for Rep in my district with a campaign website that went on and on about the "Jewish Porn Dragon" and "Porn Mule Serial Women Slaughterers". Less crazy, but possibly more amusing.
   2700. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 21, 2014 at 08:09 PM (#4755439)
Flip.
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