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Tuesday, July 01, 2014

OTP - July 2014: Republicans Lose To Democrats For Sixth Straight Year In Congressional Baseball Game

As Time magazine recently reported, Republicans, frustrated by their 22-0 loss in last year’s game, sought a new coach to shake things up on the field this year. Some members even appealed to House Speaker John Boehner (R-Ohio) to fire the coach, Rep. Joe Barton (R-Texas). But Boehner said he wasn’t powerful enough to control the baseball diamond, and Barton refused to walk away after spending 28 years with the game. Instead, he brought on Rep. Roger Williams (R-Texas), a former professional baseball player and coach at Texas Christian University, to coach while he stayed on as the team’s manager.

In the face of Wednesday’s loss, according to The Washington Post, Republicans are once again asking Boehner to remove Barton from the game. But with multiple pitchers giving up walk after walk, it seems that what the Republicans really need is a pitcher who can better match Rep. Cedric Richmond (D-La.), who previously pitched on Morehouse College’s varsity baseball team.

Bitter Mouse Posted: July 01, 2014 at 07:53 AM | 4025 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: politics, winning is fun

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   3001. Greg K Posted: July 24, 2014 at 04:29 PM (#4757154)
It is as Greg describes it, though I demur at the gym-socks characterization :)

Heh. Yeah, as the description indicates, my brother is not a fan.

Interesting tip on the sprouts, and agree on the rooster sauce. A must.

the best pho for my money is to be had in run-down strip-mall storefront non-chain places,

This is a far more succinct version of my earlier attempt to convey what Chinese places I like.
   3002. BDC Posted: July 24, 2014 at 04:32 PM (#4757155)
there was some noodly saucy thing that was really good

Probably bun, the other staple Vietnamese dish. Like pho without the soup – the same permutations apply – except that the noodles are quite different, thin and white instead of flat and glassy.

To relate this to politics somehow, the large Vietnamese populations in Houston, DFW, and New Orleans are thanks (or so people have told me) to postwar resettlement schemes that brought families to the Gulf Coast and to rural Arkansas – under the assumption that Vietnamese people must like fishing and there were shrimp and/or catfish in such places and everybody would get along fine, grow rice, whatever. But an awful lot of these people came from Saigon and had no clue as to what they were doing in some bayou somewhere, and got to the cities as fast as they could. It is odd to think of Texas and environs as strongly Vietnamese, but the community is long-established and has lots of generation 1.5 and wholly native-English second-generation families now.
   3003. BDC Posted: July 24, 2014 at 04:36 PM (#4757156)
I should qualify "run-down," though. Good pho restaurants are always lovely inside. It's just that they tend to occupy real-estate that looks like it should have been condemned five years ago, crammed between bingo palaces and nail salons.
   3004. Steve Treder Posted: July 24, 2014 at 04:39 PM (#4757158)
Pho is the greatest soup that exists in the world, that has ever existed, and that will ever exist. It is beyond delicious.

This is an absolute truth, and an immutable principle.
   3005. Steve Treder Posted: July 24, 2014 at 04:40 PM (#4757159)
Vietnamese baguette sandwiches (I forget the name) are damn fine as well.
   3006. spike Posted: July 24, 2014 at 04:42 PM (#4757161)
there was some noodly saucy thing that was really good

Probably bun, the other staple Vietnamese dish. Like pho without the soup

It usually comes with a big cup of Nuoc Cham sauce on the side you are supposed to pour over noodles as well. Bun Bo Hue is a spicy noodle soup variant with a different broth than pho (usu. served w/ congealed blocks of pigs blood) and Mi Bo Kho is a wonderful beef pot-roast stew that tastes just like mom's (really) and often served with french bread instead of noodles.
   3007. spike Posted: July 24, 2014 at 04:42 PM (#4757163)
Vietnamese baguette sandwiches

Banh mi
   3008. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 24, 2014 at 04:43 PM (#4757164)
It's just that they tend to occupy real-estate that looks like it should have been condemned five years ago, crammed between bingo palaces and nail salons.


Isn't this virtually everything in Houston?
   3009. rr Posted: July 24, 2014 at 04:51 PM (#4757170)
Perfectly consistent. If we were having a discussion on the pedagogy of teaching English for Cab Drivers 101, I'd listen respectfully to your input.


The Cab Drivers line (and that is a pretty good if prejudiced line--credit where it's due) of course, demonstrates your attitude, as well as a lack of understanding on a number of levels.

But I wasn't actually thinking of the way you have dealt with me. Your general attitude about most things illustrates the point better, as does your doing a 180 from that attitude as a way to back up Tony Dungy.

   3010. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 24, 2014 at 04:52 PM (#4757171)
wonderful beef pot-roast


I do not like Pot Roast. Don't like mom's (most of her food is great) and in fact have never liked it. It is either bland and dry or nasty and greasy. Yuck. I long ago decided to just eat the fixings that go with it (usually potatoes, carrots and onions) and take as little of the damn roast as I can. Plech. Pot Roast Stew combines two things I don't care for, and not surprisingly I don't like it much.

And get off of my pot roast and pho free lawn.
   3011. Steve Treder Posted: July 24, 2014 at 04:55 PM (#4757173)
Banh mi

That's it. Splendid things.
   3012. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: July 24, 2014 at 05:06 PM (#4757180)
postwar resettlement schemes that brought families to the Gulf Coast


The explanation, I'm sure, for the owner/cook at a great little seafood place here. He's probably one generation removed from Vietnam; his seafood supplier is his uncle down on the Gulf.
   3013. Steve Treder Posted: July 24, 2014 at 05:18 PM (#4757185)
I don't know if it's that way in other parts of the country, but in the San Jose area, the #1 profession for Vietnamese folks seems to be barbers/hairstylists.
   3014. The Good Face Posted: July 24, 2014 at 05:20 PM (#4757186)
But I wasn't actually thinking of the way you have dealt with me. Your general attitude about most things illustrates the point better, as does your doing a 180 from that attitude as a way to back up Tony Dungy.


My bad attitude (srsly, wat?) aside, I've always been willing to give a hearing to the opinion of subject matter experts so long as the opinion is narrowly tailored to fit within the area of their expertise and is not easily falsified via existing information. That doesn't mean it's dispositive, only that under those circumstances it's worth considering.
   3015. spike Posted: July 24, 2014 at 05:35 PM (#4757194)
I am not partial to the version with tendons and tripe but usually you have to find it special.

Ask for pho dac biet (all the way) with no sach (tripe - pronounced like "sack") or gan (tendons). Everything is added at the last second so it's no problem to get it omitted.

Handy pronunciation and ordering guide with audio

   3016. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: July 24, 2014 at 06:32 PM (#4757220)
Living in the South Bay for a number a years, you couldn't throw a rock without hitting a place that served Pho. That being said, I am not a big fan of the dish and prefer Thai food or Mongolian BBQ to Vietnamese.
   3017. Lassus Posted: July 24, 2014 at 07:35 PM (#4757232)
There was a Cambodian place open in Utica for like 20 minutes last year, and we are very sorry it's gone.

There is (was? who knows) a great Vietnamese sandwich place on 6th between 1st and A in the East Village. It was perfect because the sandwiches were delicious and it took FOREVER for them to make them. They really had the tease down.
   3018. Lassus Posted: July 24, 2014 at 07:36 PM (#4757233)
I've come to realize I'm a bit of a Chinese food snob, though I didn't know it until adult life. I grew up in a pretty much exclusively Chinese neighbourhood. So without thinking about it my rule of thumb has always been, if there's English on the menu the place stinks (at the very least there can be English translations, but they have to be barely comprehensible). If there's more than one or two other white people in there, it's awful. If the dining room is neat and tidy I'm out of there immediately. Preferable, but not deal breaks are servers who don't really speak English, and the occasional whole pig lying around in the eating area.

This may be the most hipster thing you've ever written, Greg. ;-)
   3019. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: July 24, 2014 at 07:41 PM (#4757235)
Ask for pho dac biet (all the way) with no sach (tripe - pronounced like "sack") or gan (tendons). Everything is added at the last second so it's no problem to get it omitted.

Handy pronunciation and ordering guide with audio


I am generally a big fan of far eastern cuisine. But I am sorry, if I have to take a language course to order a meal, I am out.
   3020. spike Posted: July 24, 2014 at 07:51 PM (#4757237)
Every good pho place has each combination written in English and Vietnamese with a number beside it. Quite easy. My local for example
   3021. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 24, 2014 at 07:58 PM (#4757240)
Saigette. 106 and Columbus. Good pho, fantastic chicken thigh bahn mi.
   3022. Greg K Posted: July 24, 2014 at 08:06 PM (#4757243)
This may be the most hipster thing you've ever written, Greg. ;-)

I know! I'm not particularly proud of it, but I grew up thinking all Chinese food was amazing. Then I moved out of my neighbourhood. It's too late for me, I had been Chinese food hipsterized before I even knew there was such a thing.

The other thing I feel a bit spoiled with is street vendor sausage. I grew up thinking Toronto was just normal in that department, but the quality of meat from street vendors is almost universally shoddy elsewhere. I was shocked at the infamous Berlin currywurst, and while I didn't try to New York fare while I was there, my brother informs me that there cart vendors boil their hot dogs? A nation built on Christian values indeed!

[Though I should clarify, for sausages in general Germany, and any number of others places, are amazing. But for just a dude in a little cart on the side of the road, I've been almost universally disappointed outside of Toronto]
   3023. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 24, 2014 at 08:08 PM (#4757244)
Another ObamaCare poll, same result - Twice As Many Americans Were Hurt By ObamaCare Than Helped:
Obamacare's overall approval rating remains upside-down by nearly 20 points (40/59), virtually unchanged from its March "rebound." Democrats' self-congratulatory convulsions over "eight million new enrollees" failed to move the needle. . . Asked whether the law has helped or hurt their families, respondents shared the bad news:

Better Off 18
Worse Off 35
About The Same 46
No Opinion 1

This is with all the exemptions, exceptions, waivers, postponements & delays, and before the Cadillac Tax & Employer Mandate kick in.


   3024. The Yankee Clapper Posted: July 24, 2014 at 08:59 PM (#4757275)
This might be important - The One Number That Will Decide This Year's Election:
Mike Podhorzer crunched the numbers and found there's one factor that, with eerie consistency, explains the way elections have swung for the past decade. Podhorzer, the political director of the AFL-CIO, is one of the top electoral strategists on the left. The crucial factor, he found, is Democrats' vote share among voters making less than $50,000.

Republicans consistently win voters making $50,000 or more, approximately the U.S. median income. The margin doesn't vary too much: In 2012, Mitt Romney got 53 percent of this group's vote; in 2010, Republican House candidates got 55 percent. And Democrats consistently win voters making less than the median—but the margin varies widely. In fact, whether Democrats win these voters by a 10-point or a 20-point margin tells you who won every national election for the past decade.
. . .
In 2004, Democrats won the working-class vote by 11 points; George W. Bush was reelected. In 2006, Democrats won the working-class vote by 22 points and took the House and Senate. In 2008, Democrats won by 22 points again, and President Obama was elected. In 2010, the margin narrowed to 11 points, and Republicans took the House back. In 2012, Obama was reelected—on the strength of another 22-point margin among voters making under $50,000.
. . .
So how does this year look for Democrats based on this metric? Podhorzer doesn't sound very optimistic. With a little more than 100 days until the election, Republican voters are more fired up than Democrats: In a new Pew survey released Thursday, 45 percent of Republican voters said they were unusually excited to vote this year, compared to 37 percent of Democratic supporters. Gridlock in Washington prevents Congress from doing anything to help those struggling economically, while giving Republicans more to blame Obama and Democrats for. Similarly, chaos around the world obscures Democrats' economic message while dragging down the president's image.

The Pew report didn't include a breakdown based on the $50,000 threshold, so I asked Pew to crunch the numbers for me. The result: 51 percent of voters making less than $50,000 plan to vote for Democrats, while 40 percent plan to vote Republican. (The rest are undecided, and the GOP wins the more-than-$50,000 vote 49-44.) That's exactly the same 11-point margin that has meant Democratic doom in every election since 2004. [emphasis added]

Looks like the Political Director of the AFL-CIO and I have similar expectations.
   3025. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 24, 2014 at 10:25 PM (#4757313)
And you the flaming libertarian and me the flaming liberal both agree that the media should just give it a rest, and let Sam's future be decided solely on his ability. Agreed?

I have no problem with that. But I still think if a head coach decided he wanted his team to focus on football rather than on this sideshow, that would be a legitimate decision, wholly justifiable.


I guess I think that a football coach has more power to keep media distractions at bay than you do. But we've been over this enough already.

With Jackie Robinson, did the media at the time of his acquisition by the Dodgers universally paint him as a hero? Because that's what's happened with Sam, and I will defer to others on the history of Robinson but my understanding is that he had to deal with a hell of a lot of crap from a lot of mainstream sportswriters/media figures. They were far from universally supportive of him. They didn't have his back. So the comparison is just one big fail, all the way around.

Again, the reaction to Robinson wasn't cut and dried, and it shifted quite a bit between October of 1945 and April of 1947.

At the time of the signing, nobody voiced any complaints against Robinson per se, but large segments of the mainstream press raised the same sort of objections to the signing that Dungy's expressed over drafting Sam.

How will the southern players react? How will it affect team morale? If Robinson were white, he wouldn't have been offered a contract at his age. Robinson has no real experience against high level competition. And so on. And that's not counting the few writers who openly admitted their personal objections to integration. But with a war against fascism and doctrines of racial superiority that had just been completed, this sort of direct appeal to white exclusivity was understandably muted, if only for fear of embarrassment.

OTOH there was also a sizable contingent of writers who openly welcomed the signing, and said it was about time. But these writers were more likely to mention the symbolic importance of Robinson, and to a lesser extent his personal qualities, than they would dwell on his actual baseball qualifications. Again, in 1945 Robinson was much more known for his football and track exploits than for anything he'd done on the baseball diamond. Unlike with Josh Gibson and Satchel Paige, there were no first hand accounts of his baseball skills from Major League players. The bottom line is that Robinson's baseball skills were much more of an unknown quantity than Sam's football skills. You can dismiss that SEC Defensive Player of the Year award, but in 1945 there wasn't anything in Robinson's prior baseball career to match it.

Now when you got to April of 1947, the reaction was of a different nature. By that point, Robinson's potential ability to play on the Major League level was no longer being questioned. His year in Montreal had given him the professional standing to have at least earned himself a shot at the promotion.

So instead, the objections were more of the indirect type, some the same as in 1945, but with a few new ones added. The leftovers were "How will the southern players react?", "How will he affect team morale?", and "How will he be received in cities where Jim Crow rules?" The new objections were "How will Robinson react to 'bench jockeying'?" (a euphemism for racial epithets) and "How will whites react to so many black fans who come out to see Robinson?"

But as soon as Robinson quickly demonstrated his Major League talent, the objections just as quickly went underground, at least in the northern press. It didn't hurt his cause when accounts began to be reported of the sort of race-baiting from opposing bench jockeys that couldn't be repeated verbatim because of its racist nature.

Were there writers who treated Robinson as a "hero" right from the start? Sure, but nearly all of them wrote for the black press, plus The Daily Worker and whatever else there was of a Left Wing press. And even that latter category tended to play sports a lot straighter than you might think.

Personally this was far and away my favorite page of press coverage of Robinson's Brooklyn debut. It came from The Sporting News, no less, the same paper that had mocked Rickey for signing him a year and a half earlier. On the 40th anniversary of that debut, I had the page framed and put it in my book shop window.

The headline read Debut 'Just Another Game' To Jackie

   3026. spike Posted: July 24, 2014 at 10:40 PM (#4757323)
the quality of meat from street vendors is almost universally shoddy elsewhere.

South Africa - those boerwors guys sit outside the bar grilling and at 2am, it is deliriously good.
   3027. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 24, 2014 at 10:45 PM (#4757327)
South Africa - those boerwors guys sit outside the bar grilling and at 2am, it is deliriously good.

You haven't lived until you've had mouse on a stick, which my wife used to see in Malawi in 1990.

Not that I've had it, you understand. I'm more of a steak and onion rings man myself.
   3028. spike Posted: July 24, 2014 at 11:06 PM (#4757336)
I did try a walkie-talkie at a soccer match - grilled chicken head and feet.
   3029. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: July 24, 2014 at 11:22 PM (#4757343)
It is odd to think of Texas and environs as strongly Vietnamese,


Hmong in Central Wisconsin (Wausau) and St. Paul, something like 10% of population.

Somalians in Minnesota (Minneapolis).
   3030. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 12:50 AM (#4757375)
Mike Francesa (of all people) got it correct on his radio show today, saying the following. I quote it because I co-sign it:

"Dungy said something he shouldn't have said; I don't think he meant any malice by what he said. But the commentaries about it afterwards are so dumb and so off base and so foolhardy. 'Oh Tony you see he wasn't a distraction.' 'Oh Tony what are you talking about?' Then you had Michael Sam saying 'Thank god he's not the St. Louis coach.'

"Folks, the fact that his reporting to camp is a story shows that it's exactly what Tony was talking about. When was the last time there was a press conference and a national story about the arrival of the 249th player drafted that year? Tell me who the 248th player drafted was. Tell me who the 250th player drafted was. Tell me the coach who went on national tv and national radio to discuss the arrival of the 249th player. That's exactly what Tony was talking about. The fact that it's a story that Michael Sam reported is exactly what he's talking about. Sam is a 7th round pick. He's the 249th pick. What other guy who is the 249th player picked is a story? Nobody. So then how was Tony wrong?

"The commentaries slamming Dungy are so dumb it doesn't make sense. Sam _is_ different. He _is_ a story. And yes in some ways he is a distraction if you want orderly football because how many 249th players picked have press conferences when they arrive? And national media following them? And when they wanted to have a tv show about him the other players were mad. When they wanted to have a reality show about his training camp the other players said wait a second. So Tony is exactly right.

"He's not a distraction, he's not different? Huh? Just you talking about him makes him different. Michael Sam _is_ different. He's a pioneer. He's different. He's got a cause behind him. He's got a group of people behind him. He's very important to these people, and I understand why, no one's debating that part of it. But Tony was correct and there's nothing wrong with saying that. It's true. So the kid goes out and knocks Tony Dungy, well the kid's wrong too because it _is_ different. Why was the 249th pick getting an ESPY? How many times has the 7th round pick got an ESPY?

"We know what's going on here. What are we stupid all of a sudden? So when someone says it he gets attacked. Tony was making a statement of fact, Sam _is_ a distraction, and Tony saying he doesn't want that distraction in his camp doesn't mean he's anti-gay or anti-Sam or a bad guy. That camp is not normal when you have national media and national television and people holding a press conference for a 7th round rookie. That's different, and if you don't see that then you're just not paying attention."
   3031. Joe Kehoskie Posted: July 25, 2014 at 03:50 AM (#4757398)
"... That's different, and if you don't see that then you're just not paying attention."

Not paying attention — or, more precisely, deliberately ignoring reality — is something of a specialty among liberals.
   3032. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 25, 2014 at 06:18 AM (#4757410)
At the time of the signing, nobody voiced any complaints against Robinson per se, but large segments of the mainstream press raised the same sort of objections to the signing that Dungy's expressed over drafting Sam.

How will the southern players react? How will it affect team morale? If Robinson were white, he wouldn't have been offered a contract at his age. Robinson has no real experience against high level competition. And so on.


Dungy hasn't expressed any of those "objections" to the Rams drafting Sam, or anything close. He didn't say a word about the other players' reaction (*). He didn't say a word about the players' "morale." He didn't say anything about Sam's ability to compete against higher competition. And there was no "so on."

All he said was that he'd be very worried that the team would be distracted by the media sh!tstorm and that distractions get in the way of peak performance.

Wrong template. You're inventing and imagining, not analyzing. You aren't paying attention to the things people actually say, you aren't paying attention to Sam's combine performance and his actual standing as a prospect and you're pretending a guy who hit .387 in the Negro Leagues, ran a 10 flat 100, and was an elite athlete at UCLA was a C+ baseball prospect in the whitebread major league baseball of 1946. You (**) desperately want this to be a story of bigots, bigotry, and history and so you're just inventing those things so you can have this be the narrative you want it to be.

(*) Nor is there any reason to worry about it, since the whole Missouri team knew he was gay and were so annoyed and put out by it that they proceeded to have the most successful season in school history.

(**) Not you alone, of course.
   3033. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 25, 2014 at 07:11 AM (#4757413)
At the time of the signing, nobody voiced any complaints against Robinson per se, but large segments of the mainstream press raised the same sort of objections to the signing that Dungy's expressed over drafting Sam.

How will the southern players react? How will it affect team morale? If Robinson were white, he wouldn't have been offered a contract at his age. Robinson has no real experience against high level competition. And so on.


Dungy hasn't expressed any of those "objections" to the Rams drafting Sam, or anything close. He didn't say a word about the other players' reaction (*). He didn't say a word about the players' "morale." He didn't say anything about Sam's ability to compete against higher competition. And there was no "so on."

All he said was that he'd be very worried that the team would be distracted by the media sh!tstorm and that distractions get in the way of peak performance.


And how exactly would you describe concern troll questions about player morale and other players' reactions, other than describing them as distractions that would---key point in common---negatively impact the team's performance? The words don't have to be identical to be sending the same message.

Wrong template. You're inventing and imagining, not analyzing. You aren't paying attention to the things people actually say, you aren't paying attention to Sam's combine performance and his actual standing as a prospect and you're pretending a guy who hit .387 in the Negro Leagues, ran a 10 flat 100, and was an elite athlete at UCLA was a C+ baseball prospect in the whitebread major league baseball of 1946.

And you're pretending that baseball people in 1945 were looking at Robinson's track records and Negro League performance, and considering him some sort of an elite prospect, rather than seeing him as The Sporting News did,

Robinson is reported to possess baseball abilities which, were he white, would make him eligible for a trial with, let us say, the Brooklyn Dodgers' Class B farm at Newport News if he were six years younger.


You (**) desperately want this to be a story of bigots, bigotry, and history and so you're just inventing those things so you can have this be the narrative you want it to be.

I've never said that Dungy was a bigot. I have said that his remarks were cowardly, and I stand by that. If every coach in the NFL were to follow his lead, Sam wouldn't even have had the opportunity that Dungy claims that Sam deserves.
   3034. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 25, 2014 at 07:18 AM (#4757414)
Mike Francesa (of all people) got it correct on his radio show today, saying the following. I quote it because I co-sign it:

"Dungy said something he shouldn't have said; I don't think he meant any malice by what he said. But the commentaries about it afterwards are so dumb and so off base and so foolhardy. 'Oh Tony you see he wasn't a distraction.' 'Oh Tony what are you talking about?' Then you had Michael Sam saying 'Thank god he's not the St. Louis coach.'


Of course Sam was 100% correct in saying that, because if the Rams had followed Dungy's reasoning, Sam would have been on the outside looking in. And I'm sure that Francesa (and you and SBB) would have sincerely said "That's a shame".
   3035. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 25, 2014 at 07:18 AM (#4757415)
And how exactly would you describe concern troll questions about player morale and other players' reactions, other than describing them as distractions that would---key point in common---negatively impact the team's performance? The words don't have to be identical to be sending the same message.

He didn't have those concerns. You're making up that he did.
   3036. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 25, 2014 at 07:21 AM (#4757417)
And how exactly would you describe concern troll questions about player morale and other players' reactions, other than describing them as distractions that would---key point in common---negatively impact the team's performance? The words don't have to be identical to be sending the same message.

He didn't have those concerns. You're making up that he did.


So how would you describe those points as anything other than distractions? The point is that Dungy, like Robinson's initial critics, were focusing on "distraction" factors that had nothing to do with Robinson's or Sam's ability.
   3037. Lassus Posted: July 25, 2014 at 07:22 AM (#4757418)
Not paying attention — or, more precisely, deliberately ignoring reality — is something of a specialty among liberals.

Says you and Karl Rove.
   3038. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 08:20 AM (#4757430)
u-s-says-russia-firing-across-border-into-ukraine

We've really got Putin on the run with all our bold sanctions talk.
   3039. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 25, 2014 at 08:24 AM (#4757434)
We've really got Putin on the run with all our bold sanctions talk.

Putin's already "backed down" in Ukraine. Haven't you heard?
   3040. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 25, 2014 at 08:29 AM (#4757435)
So how would you describe those points as anything other than distractions? The point is that Dungy, like Robinson's initial critics, were focusing on "distraction" factors that had nothing to do with Robinson's or Sam's ability.

Yes, exactly. The distractions have nothing to do with Sam, his ability, his gayness, or anything else having to do with him. They have everything to do with the media
sh!tstorm and the media questioning and the inability to be able to judge him purely in football terms without a bunch of loudmouths questioning your motives.

As noted about a dozen times now, what Dungy was saying had nothing to do with Michael Sam and everything to do with distractions. Nice to see you finally starting to catch on.
   3041. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 25, 2014 at 09:24 AM (#4757451)
So how would you describe those points as anything other than distractions? The point is that Dungy, like Robinson's initial critics, were focusing on "distraction" factors that had nothing to do with Robinson's or Sam's ability.

Yes, exactly. The distractions have nothing to do with Sam, his ability, his gayness, or anything else having to do with him. They have everything to do with the media sh!tstorm and the media questioning and the inability to be able to judge him purely in football terms without a bunch of loudmouths questioning your motives.


What it has everything to do with is Dungy's cowardly feigning of helplessness in the face of the Mean Old Media.

BTW here's the Rams' hometown paper's take on Sam, just 8 hours ago. Does this sound as if the Rams' training camp is being "distracted"?

10 Questions for the 2014 Rams as training camp opens

2. Can the other Sam make the 53?

There won’t be any more Michael Sam “distraction” talk if the All-American defensive end from Mizzou doesn’t make the final roster. And it’s no slam dunk, even though Jeff Fisher likes to collect pass-rushers. Sure, coach Jeff Fisher and GM Les Snead had an eye on history in drafting the first openly gay player in NFL history. But it was 98 percent a football decision, and if Sam doesn’t play well in camp and the preseason, he won’t be around in September. It could come down to Sam vs. undrafted rookie Ethan Westbrooks for a fifth spot at DE.


And over 7 weeks ago, there was this, also from the same hometown paper:

Finally, football for Michael Sam

There was no media hullabaloo this time for Michael Sam. No podium. Not even a Rams backdrop. The vast majority of the questions had to do with — surprise — football, rather than sexual orientation.

After sweating out two hours of practice on a warm, humid Friday afternoon, Sam to a large degree was a football player first.

Four weeks removed from the draft, and after completing his first week of practices, a sense of normality seems to be setting in for Sam, the All-American defensive end from Missouri, and yes, the first openly gay player drafted in the NFL.

It’s apparent that just getting back on the football field these last few weeks has been huge for Sam.

“It’s been a long time coming,” Sam said, with an audible sigh of relief. “You know what, it feels good to put my helmet on and get out there.”

Just 27 days have passed since the Rams selected Sam with the third of their four seventh-round picks in this year’s draft. So making any broad generalizations about his future with the team, or how he’s fitting in with his teammates, would be way premature.

But in speaking Friday to maybe a dozen reporters — as opposed to the 100 who “greeted” him at his introductory Rams news conference May 13 — Sam said the transition has been seamless so far.

“They respect me as a human being, and as a football player,” Sam said, referring to his new teammates. “All the older guys, all the older vets, are showing me the ropes so I can see how the program is run. Chris (Long) is a great mentor. So is Robert Quinn and all those guys.”


Maybe Dungy should have talked to the actual team that drafted Sam before running his mouth, if that wouldn't have been asking too much. I might offer the same advice to Francesa, though he's famous mostly for just listening to himself.
   3042. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 25, 2014 at 09:27 AM (#4757453)
BTW here's the Rams' hometown paper's take on Sam, just 8 hours ago. Does this sound as if the Rams' training camp is being "distracted"?

As Face already noted, Tony Dungy is one of the top 5-10 NFL football coaches on Planet Earth, with a wealth of experience and long list of accomplishments ... and you're a fan with a political and ideological agenda on an internet message board.

I'll go with Dungy.

Maybe Dungy should have talked to the actual team that drafted Sam before running his mouth, if that wouldn't have been asking too much. I might offer the same advice to Francesa, though he's famous mostly for just listening to himself.

Why would Dungy need the input of an unsuccessful franchise like the Rams when he's been in senior coaching roles of successful franchises since he was in his 20s?

   3043. Lassus Posted: July 25, 2014 at 09:45 AM (#4757458)
... and you're a fan with a political and ideological agenda on an internet message board.

What does this have to do with the Rams' hometown paper and their report on the training camp?
   3044. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 25, 2014 at 09:47 AM (#4757460)
We've really got Putin on the run with all our bold sanctions talk.


Putin's already "backed down" in Ukraine. Haven't you heard?


The selectivity of you guys is great. Before you were concerned about Putin rolling his tanks into Europe unless he was stopped. Going on and on about how dangerous he and Russia were. No you are breathlessly talking about some random shelling across a border. Sheesh.

Several of the rest of us openly acknowledge Russia can militarily invade and (for a bit) hold Ukraine. So what? Ukraine is not worth fighting Russia over. It is much more important to Russia than it ever will be to the US and even if Russia does invade it will cost them huge amounts, more than it can ever be worth even if the US doesn't lift a finger.

Those of us against US intervention aren't saying Putin isn't a bully or acting warlike. We aren't suggesting Russia can't do damage or invade Ukraine. So pointing out they are shelling across the border is irrelevant, except to point out that Putin is acting against the better interests of Russia (though perhaps not against his own interests).

Russia in Ukraine is not worth getting directly involved in, and certainly not if our EU allies are not interested. And yes this whole nonsense has cost Russia hundreds of billions in addition to the loss of life and diplomatic damage for minimal gains. It has been a train wreck for them, not some sort of resounding victory.
   3045. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 25, 2014 at 09:51 AM (#4757466)
Why would Dungy need the input of an unsuccessful franchise like the Rams when he's been in senior coaching roles of successful franchises since he was in his 20s?


Because hopefully he (unlike you) realizes he doesn't have all the answers and it is important to seek out information to confirm or deny our initial impressions of a situation. He thought it would be a distraction, but it seems in reality to not be one for the Rams so far at all. Sometimes reality steps in and runs counter to expectations. I bet Dungy knows that, pity you don't seem to.
   3046. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:00 AM (#4757471)
As noted about a dozen times now, what Dungy was saying had nothing to do with Michael Sam and everything to do with distractions. Nice to see you finally starting to catch on.


You seem to be missing Andy's argument. Here is how he presents Dungy's argument.

1) The media will ask a lot of stupid questions, e.g. "Will Sam's sexual orientation cause problems with his teammates?" "Can an openly gay player be successful in the NFL?" "Was Sam drafted just because he was gay?"

2) These questions will cause dissension and distraction in St. Louis

3) Therefore, instead of blowing off the questions, the Rams ought not to have drafted Sam.

That's what Andy is calling cowardly. Not that _Dungy_ is asking those questions, but that he implicitly validates them by using the fact that they will be asked as a reason to reject Sam out of hand.
   3047. Ron J2 Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:02 AM (#4757472)
#2823 Puzzling. I just imported the numbers and added them myself. And the numbers you quote make no sense. Maybe some wonky math on their part given that the top contributor (Newsweb) gives nothing to the Democrats and only 2.7% to the Republicans and #6 (McCormack Communications) gives only 15% to Democrats and nothing to Republicans.

Of the top 20 (by donation, not by media reach), setting the threshold at 65% for favors, 80% for very heavy.

Favors Republican: 21st Century Fox (2), RR Donnelly & Sons (19)
Heavily favors Republican: News Corp (3), Christian Books Distributors (5), NewsMax Media (8), Printing Industries of America (9), Tribune Publishing Company (10), Sandhills Publishing (11), Landmark Media (13), CBA Industries
100% Republican: Ingram Industries (7)

More or less even: Reed Elsevier (12)

Favors Democrat: Zagat Surveys (15)
Heavily Favors Democrat:
100% Democrat: SPS Studios (4), Cox Newspapers (14), Orphiflamme Press (16), The New Republic (18), McEvoy Group (20)

Heavily Favors others: Newsweb Corp(1), McCormack Communications (6)
   3048. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:13 AM (#4757477)
That's what Andy is calling cowardly.

I know Andy's argument and it's silly. An NFL head coach's job isn't to prove to modern liberals that he's not a "coward," or to worry that he's "implicitly validating" the arguments of "cowards," it's to win NFL football games.

Modern liberals have this facile conceit that everyone in every walk of life is answerable to their enthusiasm and fetishes, and they simply aren't.
   3049. Ron J2 Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:22 AM (#4757482)
#2902 I'm not sure that this is accurate. Sam does in fact have strong credentials at the second (or 3rd depending on how you see the CFL -- indeed in many ways Sam is typical of the guys who end up in the CFL. Generally CFL defensive ends are just a little too small to play end in the NFL and just a little too slow to play linebacker) highest level of competition, but there are all sorts of guys who succeeded at AAA and are stamped as non prospects for one reason or another.

Now sometimes the critics are wrong to dismiss the achievements. Is Sam the equivalent of (say) Bob Tewksbury or Ken Phelps or Roberto Petagine? (Or Phil Neikro, or ... the list is a long one) I'd bet against it in that he's a single skills guy (strong outside pass rush) going up against guys specifically selected to deal with his single strength. And he's on a team that's a terrible fit in that they have no need for a pass rush specialist (the only role he can fill unless he's suddenly got a lot bigger or faster)

I'd expect him to be moderately successful in the CFL if he washes out in the NFL. Interesting in a sense since the only football player I'm aware of to be on the record as being against Sam plays in the CFL (and he was fined and reprimanded for an anti Sam tweet)
   3050. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:32 AM (#4757488)
An NFL head coach's job isn't to prove to modern liberals that he's not a "coward," it's to win NFL football games.

But Dungy himself says that he thought that Sam without the "distractions" was draftworthy. It's hard to see how hiding behind the skirt of alleged "media distractions" (which strangely haven't seemed to affect the Rams' training camp**) to justify not drafting him is a step towards winning football games.

**I notice you have nothing to say about those reports from the Rams' hometown paper, since they contradict your tiresome talk about "distractions". The only people who seem to be distracted by these "distractions" are people like you and Dungy.
   3051. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:35 AM (#4757491)
BTW here's the Rams' hometown paper's take on Sam, just 8 hours ago. Does this sound as if the Rams' training camp is being "distracted"?


You're seriously arguing that the team is not distracted by this. Wild. You have no shame.

Maybe Dungy should have talked to the actual team that drafted Sam before running his mouth, if that wouldn't have been asking too much. I might offer the same advice to Francesa, though he's famous mostly for just listening to himself.


Why would Tony Dungy listen to Jeff Fisher about any football matter, ever? Dungy won 67% of his games in the NFL and went to the playoffs 11 times in 14 years, winning a super bowl along the way with the quarterback who everyone claimed beforehand was a choker who couldn't win the big one. Dungy even took the Manning-less Tampa Bay team to the playoffs 4 times in 6 years.

Fisher has won only 53% of his games, has taken his teams to the playoffs just 6 of 19 times - an abject failure in the NFL - and has no super bowl championships.

The idea that Dungy needs a lecture on team building from Jeff Fisher is utterly laughable.
   3052. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:41 AM (#4757495)
**I notice you have nothing to say about those reports from the Rams' hometown paper,


What's to say about them? I don't even see why you quoted them. What do they prove?
   3053. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:42 AM (#4757496)
You're seriously arguing that the team is not distracted by this. Wild. You have no shame.


I think he is pointing out actual evidence that the distraction is much less that many thought it would be. Since when is pointing out facts on the ground shameful? Oh right I remember.
   3054. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:44 AM (#4757499)
I think he is pointing out actual evidence that the distraction is much less that many thought it would be.


What evidence? Do you mean all the press conferences and articles and interviews and questions and general media obsession over the 249th pick in the draft?
   3055. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:51 AM (#4757502)
BTW here's the Rams' hometown paper's take on Sam, just 8 hours ago. Does this sound as if the Rams' training camp is being "distracted"?

You're seriously arguing that the team is not distracted by this. Wild. You have no shame.


And your evidence for the team's being "distracted" in training camp is exactly what? Because Mike Francesa says it is?

The idea that Dungy needs a lecture on team building from Jeff Fisher is utterly laughable.

You might remember that line the next time you say that a manager should be fired in the middle of a World Series game. Funny how this is one of the very few times in your entire posting history that you've shown any deference to a coach, let along deference that's based on winning percentages.
   3056. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:52 AM (#4757503)
And your evidence for the team's being "distracted" in training camp is exactly what?


See 3054, for starters.
   3057. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:52 AM (#4757505)
What evidence?


I can feel the Rams players being engulfed in distractions.

But in speaking Friday to maybe a dozen reporters — as opposed to the 100 who “greeted” him at his introductory Rams news conference May 13 — Sam said the transition has been seamless so far.

“They respect me as a human being, and as a football player,” Sam said, referring to his new teammates. “All the older guys, all the older vets, are showing me the ropes so I can see how the program is run. Chris (Long) is a great mentor. So is Robert Quinn and all those guys.”


You realize that discussions on BTF, articles in papers in cities other than where they are training, and talk radio across the nation really isn't a distraction to the football team, right? It is only media that directly impacts, perhaps we could even say distracts, them that is an actual distraction. A good indication of distraction or lack thereof is the decrease in reporters from 100 to a mere dozen shows this story doesn't likely have much shelf life.

I am not saying it is no distraction above a normal draft choice, simply that there is some evidence it is not as much of a distraction as many feared it would be. Sane people use evidence to change their opinions.

   3058. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:54 AM (#4757507)
And SBB is right: you think an NFL coach's job is to prove to you that he's not a "coward" by your warped definition of the term. He is trying to win football games, not cater to whatever societal whims float your boat.
   3059. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:54 AM (#4757508)
I think he is pointing out actual evidence that the distraction is much less that many thought it would be.


What evidence? Do you mean all the press conferences and articles and interviews and questions and general media obsession over the 249th pick in the draft?

No, I mean evidence that this sort of a clown sideshow is actually impacting the Rams' ability to function as a cohesive unit. Evidence that's completely lacking. Or perhaps you really think that the Rams players give a flying #### what Mike Francesa is jabbering about on the radio while they're out there on the field.
   3060. The Good Face Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:54 AM (#4757509)
But Dungy himself says that he thought that Sam without the "distractions" was draftworthy. It's hard to see how hiding behind the skirt of alleged "media distractions" (which strangely haven't seemed to affect the Rams' training camp**) to justify not drafting him is a step towards winning football games.


Because Dungy has made the determination that the likely upside of Sam is not worth the downside of the distractions and media circus. And since Dungy knows more about winning football games in the NFL than almost anybody, he's in a better place to know whether those distractions can hinder a team's effort to win games than you.
   3061. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:57 AM (#4757512)
And SBB is right: you think an NFL coach's job is to prove to you that he's not a "coward" by your warped definition of the term. He is trying to win football games, not cater to whatever societal whims float your boat.

You and SBB and GF and Mike Francesa sure make for a lovely menage a quatre.
   3062. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 10:58 AM (#4757513)
You realize that discussions on BTF, articles in papers in cities other than where they are training, and talk radio across the nation really isn't a distraction to the football team, right?


Actually, I don't. What an absurd argument. We live in a 24 hour media cycle where players are on Twitter, they're on social media, they're tapped in to the sports media, they're taking issue with what some analyst on ESPN said about them. They pay attention to what is said. Not all of them, but a large swathe of them.

It is only media that directly impacts, perhaps we could even say distracts, them that is an actual distraction. A good indication of distraction or lack thereof is the decrease in reporters from 100 to a mere dozen shows this story doesn't likely have much shelf life.


A dozen reporters there to ask questions to the 249th pick. A _hundred_ in the earlier go-round.

I am not saying it is no distraction above a normal draft choice, simply that there is some evidence it is not as much of a distraction as many feared it would be.


In other words: even you admit it's a distraction. Good to know.

(Hint, since you don't do logic: "a distraction above normal draft choice" and "not as much of a distraction" is in fact a distraction.)
   3063. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:00 AM (#4757515)
Because Dungy has made the determination that the likely upside of Sam is not worth the downside of the distractions and media circus. And since Dungy knows more about winning football games in the NFL than almost anybody, he's in a better place to know whether those distractions can hinder a team's effort to win games than you.


This is WAY overstating it. Dungy made a comment about the situation, which he later suggested was not as well thought out as it could have been. You guys realize he is not an active coach or GM any more, right? He is not spending his life prepping for this. He is is announcer and commenter guy. Which is a great gig and he certainly deserves it.

I am not suggesting he does not have the ability and experience to have an opinion. But to pretend his offhand opinion is a cold steely eyed "Determination" is a way oversell and shows little comprehension in the difference between his present job and his former job.

And yes I love that it is the same crew that is first to scream about improper deference to figures in authority usually is falling all over themselves in this instance. Firm principles indeed.
   3064. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:00 AM (#4757517)
Evidence that's completely lacking.

Because of one story in the lapdog STL paper the first day of training camp? That's weak even by your standards.
   3065. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:02 AM (#4757518)
And since Dungy knows more about winning football games in the NFL than almost anybody, he's in a better place to know whether those distractions can hinder a team's effort to win games than you.

So I take it that you'd agree that Five Rings Torre knew more about where to position Jeter and A-Rod in 2004 than a bunch of saberheads living in their mommy's basements armed with defensive metrics. I love this selective deference to authority that seems to be popping up from the unlikeliest of quarters.
   3066. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:03 AM (#4757519)
In other words: even you admit it's a distraction. Good to know.

(Hint, since you don't do logic: "a distraction above normal draft choice" and "not as much of a distraction" is in fact a distraction.)


Wherein Ray again shows his inability to discern any level of nuance. I specifically stated the level of distraction was LESS than many feared. From this the intelligent reader will realize that yes I acknowledge there is some level of distraction, but that the level of distraction might be important. And since it was less than feared, perhaps the learning individual might revisit their distraction versus football value calculation.

Others, less discerning, will feel compelled to treat distraction as a binary, and will never change their mind.
   3067. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:05 AM (#4757522)
Evidence that's completely lacking.

Because of one story in the lapdog STL paper the first day of training camp?


I'll look forward to your providing us with any counter-evidence that actually impacts the Rams, and not just your musings on modern liberals.
   3068. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:12 AM (#4757528)
Wherein Ray again shows his inability to discern any level of nuance. I specifically stated the level of distraction was LESS than many feared.


...Thereby granting my point, not Andy's. I said this is a distraction; Andy said it isn't. So -- please try to follow along here -- ANY LEVEL OF DISTRACTION grants my point. This is a binary thing.

Not that the distraction is "less than many feared," anyway. It is exactly as anticipated. People in the organization are being called upon to answer an endless supply of fevered questions about the 249th pick.
   3069. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:14 AM (#4757530)
I'll look forward to your providing us with any counter-evidence that actually impacts the Rams, and not just your musings on modern liberals.


Why is it necessary to show impact? Distraction is distraction; impact is not a necessary component of that.
   3070. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:15 AM (#4757534)
I know Andy's argument and it's silly. An NFL head coach's job isn't to prove to modern liberals that he's not a "coward," or to worry that he's "implicitly validating" the arguments of "cowards," it's to win NFL football games.


Dungy is not an NFL head coach. He is a sports talking head. His main job is not to embarrass his parent media organization.
   3071. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:17 AM (#4757537)
I love this selective deference to authority that seems to be popping up from the unlikeliest of quarters.


Why is deferring to Dungy over Fisher bad, but deferring to Fisher over Dungy - as you're doing - good?
   3072. The Good Face Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:17 AM (#4757539)
Dungy made a comment about the situation, which he later suggested was not as well thought out as it could have been.


Yes, after he was savaged in the media, he walked it back because he's a savvy guy and he saw no need to die on this hill. I do love how lefties always claim vindication after media abuse and harassment leads to an "apology" though.

So I take it that you'd agree that Five Rings Torre knew more about where to position Jeter and A-Rod in 2004 than a bunch of saberheads living in their mommy's basements armed with defensive metrics.


I always acknowledged that he might have been right; there were other factors at play than defensive stats. The Yanks kept right on going to the playoffs for years after that decision and won a WS with Jeter at SS & A-rod at 3B. Anyway, where are YOUR metrics? Because right now you're just some internet loudmouth saying, "Nuh uh!" in counterpoint to Dungy's claim that it would be a distraction.
   3073. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:20 AM (#4757543)
I'll look forward to your providing us with any counter-evidence that actually impacts the Rams, and not just your musings on modern liberals.

I'm sure there will be distractions, but that isn't the standard. The standard is the risk of distraction. I don't even want to risk distraction for a meh talent.
   3074. Dan The Mediocre Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:24 AM (#4757546)
Why is deferring to Dungy over Fisher bad, but deferring to Fisher over Dungy - as you're doing - good?


Fisher runs a different defense than Dungy ran in Tampa Bay or Indianapolis. Thus, we would guess that Fisher has a better idea of what sort of player he needs in a defensive lineman.
   3075. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:27 AM (#4757548)
Yes, after he was savaged in the media, he walked it back because he's a savvy guy and he saw no need to die on this hill. I do love how lefties always claim vindication after media abuse and harassment leads to an "apology" though.


And if it was a truly held opinion he was a coward for having backed down (which is one of Andy's issues with him, his cowardice). So it sounds like you are conceding Dungy's cowardice. The alternative is it was more of an offhand opinion that he withdrew on second thought, which sort of hurts your argument.

Why is it necessary to show impact? Distraction is distraction; impact is not a necessary component of that.


Like I said, nuance with this one, not so much. Follow along, if you please.

Some have suggested that the player in question was not worth the distraction he would generate. And there have been many discussions on just how "Blue Chip" a prospect he was. Well if you are going to make that calculation, what you are doing is evaluating the value from drafting the player versus the cost (from distractions) of drafting the player. This is a completely rational calculation.

The two components of this calculation are the value the player brings and ... wait for it ... the amount of distraction they cause. The cost from the distraction, the amount, is the impact. So if the cost is less than expected that is very relevant to the calculation. So of course it matters.

I guess the dumb is strong this Friday morning or something.
   3076. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:28 AM (#4757549)
And if it was a truly held opinion he was a coward for having backed down (which is one of Andy's issues with him, his cowardice). So it sounds like you are conceding Dungy's cowardice. The alternative is it was more of an offhand opinion that he withdrew on second thought, which sort of hurts your argument.

No, like most normal people in these drummed-up "situations," he preferred "backing down" to dealing with the unhinged rantings and ravings of a bunch of shrill lunatics.
   3077. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:30 AM (#4757551)
I'm sure there will be distractions, but that isn't the standard. The standard is the risk of distraction. I don't even want to risk distraction for a meh talent.


And when it appears the risk of distraction was lower than previously believed that matters in evaluating who was right. Just as if it turns out Sam is all pro or a bust matters.
   3078. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:31 AM (#4757552)
And if it was a truly held opinion he was a coward for having backed down


Not at all. As GF said, there are some hills that are simply not worth dying on.
   3079. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:32 AM (#4757554)
No, like most normal people in these drummed-up "situations," he preferred "backing down" to dealing with the unhinged rantings and ravings of a bunch of shrill lunatics.


Well if one truly believes something and then backs down right away that is hardly a profile in courage. And previously Dungy has been very outspoken in these sorts of matters (Gay marriage specifically - look up his reaction to Obama and his evolution on the issue) and shown much less willingness to back down. So to me it appears it is more a case that it really was an offhand opinion that on second thought he walked back.
   3080. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:33 AM (#4757556)
(which is one of Andy's issues with him, his cowardice).


His "cowardice" as Andy bizarrely defines that term, yes.

Not catering to liberal whims and fetishes is now "cowardice." Sure it is.
   3081. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:34 AM (#4757557)
Not catering to liberal whims and fetishes is now "cowardice." Sure it is.


But he is catering to those whims, by backing down and retracting it. Seriously make up your mind is he a wimp or not?
   3082. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:38 AM (#4757561)
But he is catering to those whims, by backing down and retracting it.


No he's not. He's diffusing the issue so that the crazies don't burn him at the stake and cost him his career.
   3083. The Good Face Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:39 AM (#4757562)
Well if one truly believes something and then backs down right away that is hardly a profile in courage.


Sensible people retreat in the face of overwhelming odds. Dungy's hardly in a position to win a war against the mainstream media, and he had much more to gain by backing down than sticking to his guns. If you want to call that cowardice, that says a lot more about your childish view of the world than it does about Dungy.
   3084. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:41 AM (#4757563)
I'll look forward to your providing us with any counter-evidence that actually impacts the Rams, and not just your musings on modern liberals.

Why is it necessary to show impact? Distraction is distraction; impact is not a necessary component of that.


IOW the line about "winning football games" was apparently itself just a distraction from whatever metapoint you're making about forces that have nothing to do with----winning football games.

But keep pontificating. This just gets curiouser and curiouser.

---------------------------------------------------

No, like most normal people in these drummed-up "situations," he preferred "backing down" to dealing with the unhinged rantings and ravings of a bunch of shrill lunatics.

Which indirectly explains your own reaction to your night visions of "modern liberals", which is the 180 degree opposite of how you think that a "normal" person should react to their rantings and ravings.

"Sugar Bear Blanks, Inc.: We respond to Modern Liberals, so you don't have to."
   3085. Lassus Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:44 AM (#4757566)
No he's not. He's diffusing the issue so that the crazies don't burn him at the stake and cost him his career.

This is the reality you guys see in the Dungy situation that we don't? Crazies? Stake-burning? Okey-doke.
   3086. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:44 AM (#4757567)
Right so there are two theories.

One theory is that Dungy has an opinion and amount of courage exactly calibrated so that he overcomes the mighty Cathedral and its liberal indoctrination over gay rights and so felt OK to state his opinion about the amount of media distraction (while being a media member), but then completely miscalculated the amount of media distraction his comment caused, and his courage failed and he decided it was not worth going against the Cathedral and its media lapdogs (because I guess his understanding of the media and distractions is not what it could be).

The second theory is he made an offhand comment, got some push back from it. He then thought about it and decided he should walk back the comment.

That is a tough one to figure out which is more likely.
   3087. The Good Face Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:47 AM (#4757570)
Or, more likely, he made a comment based on his beliefs and experiences, was surprised to find himself facing a media lynch mob, and decided this wasn't a hill he wanted to die on. The left succeeds in silencing him and he gets to keep his career.
   3088. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:47 AM (#4757571)
This is the reality you guys see in the Dungy situation that we don't? Crazies? Stake-burning?


I'll speak for myself: Yes, absolutely.

The fact that you don't see this speaks volumes about you as well.

Dungy made the reasoned, non-bigoted statement that Sam would be a distraction so he wouldn't draft him and then was subject to relentless attack by the crazies, that only began to relent after he issued his "clarification."

Had Dungy doubled down he'd have lost his job. That's the stake burning by the crazies part. I didn't mean that there would literally be fire and a stake.

   3089. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:49 AM (#4757572)
Which indirectly explains your own reaction to your night visions of "modern liberals", which is the 180 degree opposite of how you think that a "normal" person should react to their rantings and ravings.

"Sugar Bear Blanks, Inc.: We respond to Modern Liberals, so you don't have to."


And if I had a professional stake in it, I wouldn't. Just as I wouldn't expose myself to their unhinged lunacy by spending a 7th round draft pick on a meh talent. I'd avoid them at all costs, just as I'd avoid witches and escapees and overflow from the local asylum.

   3090. The Good Face Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:50 AM (#4757573)
The second theory is he made an offhand comment, got some push back from it. He then thought about it and decided he should walk back the comment.


Also, I love how BM characterizes, "Apologize and recant or you'll lose your job and never work in mainstream sports media again."
   3091. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:51 AM (#4757574)
Or, more likely, he made a comment based on his beliefs and experiences, was surprised to find himself facing a media lynch mob, and decided this wasn't a hill he wanted to die on. The left succeeds in silencing him and he gets to keep his career.


So doesn't the fact - even in your preferred narrative - that your expert on football and media distractions was so totally off base in realizing what might cause a media uproar that he was forced to back down right away give you any pause in treating him as your expert?

You guys have spent many posts talking him up as an expert on the situation, but he makes this fundamental a mistake? Your expert needs more expertise.
   3092. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:52 AM (#4757576)
Also, I love how BM characterizes, "Apologize and recant or you'll lose your job and never work in mainstream sports media again."


I have not seen any statement suggesting what you have in quotes. I admit I find the story somewhat boring so maybe it happened. As far as I know though no such direct threat was ever made to him.
   3093. Lassus Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:54 AM (#4757577)
...and then was subject to relentless attack by the crazies

So, er, crazies like, I dunno, Mike Wilbon? Seriously, crazies? Lynch mobs?

If I don't wish to label Mike Wilbon as a relentless crazy, I'll have to accept the volumes this speaks about me.
   3094. The Good Face Posted: July 25, 2014 at 11:56 AM (#4757580)
So doesn't the fact - even in your preferred narrative - that your expert on football and media distractions was so totally off base in realizing what might cause a media uproar that he was forced to back down right away give you any pause in treating him as your expert.

You guys have spent many posts talking him up as an expert on the situation, but he makes this fundamental a mistake? Your expert needs more expertise.


It actually reinforces how right he was. Just commenting honestly on the subject created a media circus, and shows how treacherous the footing is for anybody associated with the team and Sam's situation. It shows that if anything he UNDERESTIMATED how deranged the media was on the subject.
   3095. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 12:00 PM (#4757583)
So, er, crazies like, I dunno, Mike Wilbon? Seriously, crazies? Lynch mobs?


There's only one acceptable viewpoint on this. The crazies have seen to that, and have shown the non-crazies like Dungy (and possibly Wilbon) what happens when you don't toe the party line.

"Say that you would draft Sam or we will attack you." That's the lesson Dungy learned. Because when he offered a quite reasonable and non-bigoted alternative viewpoint to drafting Sam he was savaged.


   3096. Ray (RDP) Posted: July 25, 2014 at 12:03 PM (#4757585)
BTW, Lassus, I absolutely love your level of denial here. You stand by as a lynch mob strings someone up for lynching, if not actively supporting it then at a minimum doing nothing to defend Dungy, and then after he wriggles off the hook you claim he wasn't strung up by crazy people.
   3097. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 25, 2014 at 12:06 PM (#4757588)
It actually reinforces how right he was. Just commenting honestly on the subject created a media circus, and shows how treacherous the footing is for anybody associated with the team and Sam's situation.


Um, no. According to all the evidence we have seen, there has been more media distraction regarding his statements than he anticipated and less around Sam. So his ideas about what causes a media distraction seems to have been colored by his long standing rejection of gay rights. This is not surprising that he would let his personal feelings influence his opinion, everyone does it, but it does suggest his evaluation of the whole situation is suspect. But hey he did retract his statement, so maybe retrospection was worthwhile (at least I prefer that to ascribing it to his cowardice, because I really don't think he is a coward).
   3098. Lassus Posted: July 25, 2014 at 12:06 PM (#4757589)
Michael Wilbon - relentless, foaming, crucifixated crazy.

BTW, Lassus, I absolutely love your level of denial here. You stand by as a lynch mob strings someone up for lynching, if not actively supporting it then at a minimum doing nothing to defend Dungy, and then after he wriggles off the hook you claim he wasn't strung up by crazy people.

No one (well, I guess that's not true, few select, sane people such as yourself) - including Dungy himself - thinks he was lynched. Your level of drama here is operatic. Also, you continue to ignore the fact that I said the amount of attention he got for this was unwarranted. The mere fact that I understand why he got it is enough for you to have me doing the Dance of the Seven Veils with his Dungy the Baptist head.
   3099. Bitter Mouse Posted: July 25, 2014 at 12:07 PM (#4757590)
BTW, Lassus, I absolutely love your level of denial here. You stand by as a lynch mob strings someone up for lynching, if not actively supporting it then at a minimum doing nothing to defend Dungy, and then after he wriggles off the hook you claim he wasn't strung up by crazy people.


Can you point out what exactly this lynching entails? Do you have any direct proof his life or career was in danger? Anything that points to the imminent threat he was under? Or is it just the voices in your head and some random talk radio you heard?
   3100. rr Posted: July 25, 2014 at 12:11 PM (#4757592)
he was savaged
strung up by crazy people
their unhinged lunacy
stake burning by the crazies
so that the crazies don't burn him at the stake and cost him his career
relentless attack by the crazies
facing a media lynch mob
The left succeeds in silencing him
the unhinged rantings and ravings of a bunch of shrill lunatics



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