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Wednesday, March 05, 2014

OTP - March 2014: Russia denies calling shots in Ukraine’s Crimea standoff

Only Babe Ruth calls shots!

At a press conference for Kremlin-controlled media on Tuesday, Putin reiterated his position that Moscow has the right to use “all means” necessary to protect ethnic Russians and vital military assets in Ukraine, first among them the Black Sea fleet in the Crimean port of Sevastopol.

 

Bitter Mouse Posted: March 05, 2014 at 08:54 AM | 3254 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: lies, politics, war

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   201. spike Posted: March 06, 2014 at 03:39 PM (#4667271)
Ryan story about childhood busted in record time. How the #### can you stand being such a tool Paul?
   202. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 06, 2014 at 03:43 PM (#4667272)
And Kissinger did note that Ukraine had been independent for "only" 23 years, as I said -- as if that means anything other than it took far too long for it to happen.
   203. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 06, 2014 at 03:43 PM (#4667273)
ONLY BECAUSE THE DECEMBERISTS WERE THE HEADLINER!

That desperate reed-clutching made me laugh and laugh.
   204. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: March 06, 2014 at 03:44 PM (#4667274)
You reduce Poltava to "fleabag". Russians don't. Your inability to conceive of Russian history Nd Russian interests is why you're stuck in this adolescent idea of FP.
   205. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: March 06, 2014 at 03:44 PM (#4667275)
You reduce Poltava to "fleabag". Russians don't. Your inability to conceive of Russian history Nd Russian interests is why you're stuck in this adolescent idea of FP.
   206. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 06, 2014 at 03:49 PM (#4667281)
You reduce Poltava to "fleabag". Russians don't.

I know. And since my perspective is far closer to the rational, deliberative, and correct understanding we all should seek, I'll go with mine.

Of course, you won't actually hear Russians say things like, "We can't let the Ukrainians join Europe because OMG TEH POLTOVA," the better assumption is that people like Kissinger just say that stuff because they think it makes them appear erudite.

The idea that the Ukraine of 2014 should be under the Russian yoke because of some battle in 1704 is delusional. The standing policy here is to leave delusions to the delusional and there's no need to deviate from that long-standing policy here.
   207. Lassus Posted: March 06, 2014 at 03:51 PM (#4667282)
And since my perspective is far closer to the rational, deliberative, and correct understanding we all should seek

Is this too long for a username?
   208. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 06, 2014 at 03:53 PM (#4667283)

And Kissinger did note that Ukraine had been independent for "only" 23 years, as I said -- as if that means anything other than it took far too long for it to happen.


It means there is no long-standing pattern of relations with their neighbors, or a widely-agreed-on set of diplomatic goals, to rely on during times like these.
   209. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 06, 2014 at 03:53 PM (#4667284)
And since my perspective is far closer to the rational, deliberative, and correct understanding we all should seek


Is this too long for a username?

I think "Boner Boy" would pretty much cover all his bases.
   210. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 06, 2014 at 03:55 PM (#4667286)
And since my perspective is far closer to the rational, deliberative, and correct understanding we all should seek


Consider this an opportunity for dialogue & education!
   211. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 06, 2014 at 03:56 PM (#4667287)
You guys just like Kissinger because he was a big shot in your youth and it brings you pleasant memories of those carefree days. You need to let your boyhood heroes go. It's a new world.
   212. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 06, 2014 at 03:56 PM (#4667288)
Is there a leftie equivalent to CPAC, where Dem politicians say crazy-ass #### to fire up their crazy-ass base?
   213. spike Posted: March 06, 2014 at 03:57 PM (#4667290)
the Academy Awards show?
   214. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:00 PM (#4667296)
And of course Sam and Andy, et al., haven't the foggiest ####### clue what the Russian man in the street thinks about Poltova.
   215. Rickey! On a blog from 1998. With the candlestick. Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:00 PM (#4667297)
Again. You clearly didn't even read the article. Kissinger explicitly states Ukraine should not be a client state. Of either side. He argues for a Finland model, which is pretty close to correct thinking.
   216. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:01 PM (#4667299)
You guys just like Kissinger because he was a big shot in your youth and it brings you pleasant memories of those carefree days.
Yeah, that's Henry Kissinger alright. Beloved figure of the aging left.
   217. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:02 PM (#4667300)
Paul Ryan knows just what will make Putin rethink his Ukrainian adventures: the Keystone pipeline.
   218. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:03 PM (#4667301)
You guys just like Kissinger because he was a big shot in your youth and it brings you pleasant memories of those carefree days.
Bear

Wat r u doin

Bear

Stahp
   219. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:03 PM (#4667302)
Again. You clearly didn't even read the article. Kissinger explicitly states Ukraine should not be a client state.

Which runs directly counter to his principle that they should choose their own associations. They did. They chose to associate with the EU. Russia used force to stop that association.

Associating with the EU, or joining the EU, wouldn't make it a "client state" of anybody. That's silly. Is Germany a "client state" of the EU?
   220. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:04 PM (#4667303)
You guys just like Kissinger because he was a big shot in your youth and it brings you pleasant memories of those carefree days.


You don't know me, I like Kissinger because he reminds me of that Monty Python song.
   221. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:06 PM (#4667305)
CPAC gems:

Abortion has been worse on the African-American community than the slave trade or Jim Crow.

-Elroy Sailor, co-founder of the J.C. Watts Companies

We know something has gone wrong. That's why more and more Americans are buying firearms and ammunition.

-Wayne LaPierre, head of the NRA.

Democrats go into minority communities and give them free stuf. How can we compete with that?

-CPAC Minority outreach panel

Nothing against Helen Keller, although she was a leftist, too. Any media here?

-Mark Levin

Mitch McConnell brought a rifle onto the stage.
   222. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:09 PM (#4667310)
How GOP lost young voters


The College Republican National Committee on Monday made public a detailed report — the result of extensive polling and focus groups — dissecting what went wrong for Republicans with young voters in the 2012 elections and how the party can improve its showing with that key demographic in the future.

It’s not a pretty picture. In fact, it’s a “dismal present situation,” the report says....

In the report, the young Republican activists acknowledge their party has suffered significant damage in recent years. A sampling of the critique on:

Gay marriage: “On the ‘open-minded’ issue … [w]e will face serious difficulty so long as the issue of gay marriage remains on the table.”

Hispanics: “Latino voters … tend to think the GOP couldn’t care less about them.”

Perception of the party’s economic stance: “We’ve become the party that will pat you on your back when you make it, but won’t offer you a hand to help you get there.”

Big reason for the image problem: The “outrageous statements made by errant Republican voices.”

Words that up-for-grabs voters associate with the GOP: “The responses were brutal: closed-minded, racist, rigid, old-fashioned.”
   223. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:09 PM (#4667311)

Which runs directly counter to his principle that they should choose their own associations. They did. They chose to associate with the EU. Russia used force to stop that association.


That does not at all describe what has gone on. The protesters overthrew the government after Yanukovych announced they would not associate with the EU. Russia is responding to that change of government, not to any association with the EU, which has not been announced, and in any case Russia has not demanded that Ukraine avoid associating with the EU, still less that he is in the Crimea to do so.
   224. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:09 PM (#4667312)
I don't like agreeing with SBB on anything :-)
but come on, if you read something by Kissinger and find yourself agreeing with it, the general rule is hat you should re-examne the issue, because as a general rule whatever Kissimg rsays is eithr false, immoral or both.
   225. Morty Causa Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:11 PM (#4667313)
"alright"

Consider yourself warned.
   226. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:13 PM (#4667315)
Russia is responding to that change of government, not to any association with the EU, which has not been announced, and in any case Russia has not demanded that Ukraine avoid associating with the EU, still less that he is in the Crimea to do so.

More delusion. The idea that Russia didn't interfere with the Ukraine/EU agreement is comical. As is the idea that they'd support a government that associated with/joined the EU.

The protesters protested the last-minute failure to sign the EU agreement (*) whereupon 75 or so were gunned down, likely at the behest of Russia. The man who gunned them down is still averred to be the legitimate leader of Ukraine by Russia.

The deposition of that leader was supported by a large majority of the Ukrainian parliament. The protesters didn't overthrow the government. The guy left and was voted out of office.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

(*) No EU/Ukraine agreement announced? Huh?
   227. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:18 PM (#4667320)
That does not at all describe what has gone on.

It's more accurate than your description.

The protesters overthrew the government after Yanukovych announced they would not associate with the EU. Russia is responding to that change of government, not to any association with the EU, which has not been announc

Everyone knows that Russia doesn't want Ukraine associated with the EU, that's why Putin was throwing gobs of money and applying pressure to have Yanukovych scuttle the deal- that's the underlying issue driving all of this.

Also Yanukovych was overthrown because after he ordered the police to start gunning down protesters, some 60-70 riot police immediately switched sides, and his OWN political party disowned him- his support/his side, collapsed on him because he was too thuggish- that's why he's in Russia and not some area of the Ukraine that voted for him (Hell even Putin knows Yanukovich is history, but Putin of course is going to find another puppet)

   228. Srul Itza Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:22 PM (#4667323)
He argues for a Finland model, which is pretty close to correct thinking.


Shouldn't that be for the Ukrainians to decide, and not be imposed on them?

It means there is no long-standing pattern of relations with their neighbors, or a widely-agreed-on set of diplomatic goals, to rely on during times like these.


The other point that Kissinger was making is that Ukraine does not have a long history of internal governance, whereby the various groups learn to deal and compromise with each other. I don't know that the age of the country is necessarily all that relevant, though -- there a plenty of older polities where the factions have never really learned to get along. For all we know, it may be best for the Russian-leaning Ukraine and Western-leaning Ukraine may end up going the same route as the Czechs and the Slovaks.
   229. BDC Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:22 PM (#4667324)
that's Henry Kissinger alright. Beloved figure of the aging left

Well, he did go out with Candice Bergen for a while. Enough to instill serious envy in any young guy of the 70s.
   230. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:27 PM (#4667328)
The protesters protested the last-minute failure to sign the EU agreement (*) whereupon 75 or so were gunned down


You have a gap in there, he pulled out on 11/21- protests started picking up steam by 11/30 or so, the size waxed and waned, but seemingly peaked in early December- there were sporadic deaths but mostly non-shooting deaths, people getting trampled, some people getting bludgeoned- it was on 2/20- during a"truce" that Yanukovich ordered snipers to start shooting people (on TV)- hsi support immediately collapsed -

what I particularly remember was report that protestors had "seized" some 60-70 riot police- bullshit, protestors do not "seize" 60-70 riot police at once, they'd obviously switched sides- and the impetus for that was being ordered to start shooting/ seeing snipers shooting...Parliament then voted to release Timoshenko from jail...
   231. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:29 PM (#4667329)
For all we know, it may be best for the Russian-leaning Ukraine and Western-leaning Ukraine may end up going the same route as the Czechs and the Slovaks.


Unfortunately with Putin driving the bus it looks more likely to follow the Yugoslav break up model.
   232. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:32 PM (#4667332)
You guys just like Kissinger because he was a big shot in your youth and it brings you pleasant memories of those carefree days. You need to let your boyhood heroes go.

I have to admit that's the first time I've ever heard anyone think that Henry Kissinger was anyone's boyhood hero. But then Boner Boy's always had a fevered imagination.
   233. zenbitz Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:35 PM (#4667336)
but come on, if you read something by Kissinger and find yourself agreeing with it, the general rule is hat you should re-examne the issue, because as a general rule whatever Kissimg rsays is eithr false, immoral or both.


I'm very confused now, because I have the same general rule with stuff I read by Id of SBB!

/headesplode
   234. Srul Itza Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:37 PM (#4667338)
Unfortunately with Putin driving the bus it looks more likely to follow the Yugoslav break up model.


Parts of Yugoslavia broke off without any issue. Others, not so much. Don't make assumptions.
   235. Steve Treder Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:37 PM (#4667339)
I have to admit that's the first time I've ever heard anyone think that Henry Kissinger was anyone's boyhood hero.

Indeed it is perhaps the most hilarious thing ever written on this site. Or anywhere else, for that matter.
   236. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:40 PM (#4667342)
I have to admit that's the first time I've ever heard anyone think that Henry Kissinger was anyone's boyhood hero. But then Boner Boy's always had a fevered imagination.

After using it in every other post for three weeks and getting no response, you may want to retire the "boner" thingie. It never really had one, but the "leave them wanting more" phase has sort of passed on that one.

   237. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:42 PM (#4667348)
Indeed it is perhaps the most hilarious thing ever written on this site. Or anywhere else, for that matter.

As if it was serious. Geez, no one around here has ever used any construction like it before. I don't think I'd ever even heard the term "boyhood hero" until it spontaneously popped into my head an hour ago.

   238. Guapo Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:48 PM (#4667353)
It never really had one, but the "leave them wanting more" phase has sort of passed on that one.


That's what SHE said


[edited to add proper emphasis]
   239. Steve Treder Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:48 PM (#4667354)
As if it was serious.

Going with that?
   240. Len Lansford, Carney Barker Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:50 PM (#4667355)
Big reason for the image problem: The “outrageous statements made by errant Republican voices.”

Words that up-for-grabs voters associate with the GOP: “The responses were brutal: closed-minded, racist, rigid, old-fashioned.”


Obviously the winning strategy is to double-down on aging angry white voters.
   241. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:51 PM (#4667357)
Sounds like the Battle of Poltava is famous in Ukrainian history for the Ukrainian "hetman" telling the Tsar to go #### himself - a precursor to 1991:

"The battle also bears some importance in Ukrainian national history: indeed, hetman Ivan Mazepa sided with the Swedes, as he sought to create an uprising in Ukraine, against the tsardom."(*)

Where was that in Kissinger's piece, and more importantly, can Sam and Andy relay the feelings of the average Ukrainian about it?

(*) Wikipedia, first paragraph.



   242. Len Lansford, Carney Barker Posted: March 06, 2014 at 04:56 PM (#4667358)
I know. And since my perspective is far closer to the rational, deliberative, and correct understanding we all should seek, I'll go with mine.


Now imagine this coming from a national political or religious leader.
   243. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:00 PM (#4667359)
Parts of Yugoslavia broke off without any issue. Others, not so much. Don't make assumptions.


And which part would that be?
Slovenia? Let's see, declared independence on 6/25/91, the Yugoslav Army rolled, in there was fighting for a week or two before a truce was declared, and Slovenia agreed to a three month delay in independence...

Slovenia independence then went off pretty much without a hitch because in the meantime, Croatia (situated between Serbia and Slovenia) declared independence and fought on and off the next 3 years, which overlapped with the implosion of Bosnia and the resultant civil war that dragged on for 3+ years...

and oh, Macedonia also declared independence late in 1991, and that went off without a hitch... except for it being boycotted and blockaded by Greece for a time- because Greece wanted Macedonia to choose another name... then came spillover from the Kosovo War (1998-99) which saw Kosovo break off from Serbia with NATO help after Serbia's efforts at ethnic cleansing failed - but in any event some 300,000 refugees flooded into Macedonia, a tiny country of just 2 million....

so Monentegro declared independence in 2006 and Serbia said, "bye bye" because quite frankly they had finally given up.
So yeah, Montenegro broke off without any issue. Yippee Kay Aye!
   244. spike Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:00 PM (#4667360)
“outrageous statements made by errant Republican voices.”

Overzealous Staffer, is that you AGAIN?
   245. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:00 PM (#4667361)
hetman Ivan Mazepa sided with the Swedes, as he sought to create an uprising in Ukraine, against the tsardom."(*)


And in the end, he led an uprising of one.
   246. spike Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:07 PM (#4667363)
Mitch McConnell brought a rifle onto the stage

And promptly got called out for doing it wrong....

Alison L. Grimes ?@AlisonForKY 5h
Someone tell @Team_Mitch that's not the way to hold a gun. KY women do it better. #kysen
   247. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:08 PM (#4667364)
And in the end, he led an uprising of one.

Doubtful, but it appears the Russians had their typical cool and rational reaction to the whole thing:

He was famous as a patron of the arts, and also played an important role in the Battle of Poltava where after learning of Peter I's intent to relieve him as acting Hetman of Ukraine and replace him with Alexander Menshikov, he deserted his army and sided with Charles of Sweden. The politicization of this desertion has held a lasting legacy in both Russian and Ukrainian national history.

Because of this, the Russian Orthodox Church has laid an anathema on his name since the beginning of the 18th century and refuses to renounce to this day. Everyone who opposed the Russian government in eighteenth-century Ukraine were derogatorily referred to as Mazepintsy (Mazepists). The alienation of Mazepa from Ukrainian history continued during the Soviet period, but since Ukraine's independence there have been strong moves to rehabilitate Mazepa's image, although he remains a figure of mixed standing.


So, pace Kissinger's tall tales, Poltava is far better as an example of Ukrainians trying to be free and independent, and Russians holding a never-ending grudge -- a pattern that continues 310 years on.

   248. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:24 PM (#4667372)
I have to admit that's the first time I've ever heard anyone think that Henry Kissinger was anyone's boyhood hero. But then Boner Boy's always had a fevered imagination.

After using it in every other post for three weeks and getting no response, you may want to retire the "boner" thingie. It never really had one, but the "leave them wanting more" phase has sort of passed on that one.


Tell you what, BB: I'll stop using it** when you stop using "modern liberals" or "leftists" as your one-size-fits-all reductionist insult.

Deal? Or would that reduce your vocabulary by too great a percentage?

But anyway, in case your memory's failed you, you were the one who raised the subject*** of your workplace boners in the first place, so as you like to say: Own it.

**And I won't try to fudge it by using "Erection man", or "Wild and woody". I won't cheat.

***no pun intended
   249. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:25 PM (#4667373)
And in the end, he led an uprising of one.

Doubtful


What does that mean? Are you doubting that history recorded the Mazepa uprising was an abject failure?
   250. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:26 PM (#4667374)
But anyway, in case your memory's failed you, you were the one who raised the subject*** of your workplace boners in the first place, so as you like to say: Own it.

Actually, no I didn't. Someone else used the term first, in a question, which I answered with the term. Twice.

You've now used it like 25 times.
   251. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:26 PM (#4667375)
Admit it, Sugar Bear, you're enjoying all this attention. You're the veritable Repoz of Ukraine.
   252. spike Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:27 PM (#4667377)
ONLY BECAUSE THE DECEMBERISTS WERE THE HEADLINER!

That desperate reed-clutching made me laugh and laugh.


apparently the CPAC folks have learned from this, and brought in their own headlining act to boost attendance.

Spoiler alert: Conservative folk music is almost as good as conservative humor
   253. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:27 PM (#4667378)
What does that mean? Are you doubting that history recorded the Mazepa uprising was an abject failure?

I'm doubting that he was the only one on his side.

I guess I'm also doubting that it was an "abject failure" since his example is obviously an inspiration to Ukrainians today.

   254. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:30 PM (#4667381)
so as you like to say: Own it.

Actually, no I didn't. Someone else used the term first, in a question, which I answered with the term. Twice.


It wasn't that you "used" the term. It was that you were also talking about your own. Ever heard of the expression "TMI"?

You've now used it like 25 times.

Well, I've already offered you a perfectly fair deal if you really don't like the word. You can kill three birds with one stone.
   255. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:30 PM (#4667382)
So, pace Kissinger's tall tales, Poltava is far better as an example of Ukrainians trying to be free and independent,


It seems more like an example of a feudal-style warlord switching allegiances for his own personal reasons...
   256. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:35 PM (#4667386)
Well, I've already offered you a perfectly fair deal if you really don't like the word.

You can use it all you want, but it must be kind of embarrassing at this point. I'd be embarrassed in your shoes, but if you aren't -- vive le difference!!
   257. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:38 PM (#4667390)
I'm doubting that he was the only one on his side.


Per Wikipedia:
As the Swedish and Polish armies advanced towards Ukraine, Mazepa allied himself with them on October 28, 1708. However, only 3,000 Cossacks followed their Hetman, with rest remaining loyal to the Tsar


and

Those Cossacks who did not side with Mazepa elected a new hetman, Ivan Skoropadsky, on November 11, 1708. The fear of other reprisals and suspicion of Mazepa's newfound Swedish ally prevented most of Ukraine's population from siding with him.


I guess I'm also doubting that it was an "abject failure" since his example is obviously an inspiration to Ukrainians today.


well...

According to an April 2009 survey by the Research & Branding Group 30 percent of the population of Ukraine views Mazepa as "a man who fought for the independence of Ukraine", while 28 percent view him "as a turncoat who joined the enemy's ranks".[10]
   258. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:41 PM (#4667391)
You can use it all you want, but it must be kind of embarrassing at this point. I'd be embarrassed in your shoes, but if you aren't -- vive le difference!!

Doesn't embarrass me a bit, any more than using hackneyed catchphrases like "modern liberals" and "leftists" about 100 times a week apparently embarrasses you.
   259. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:42 PM (#4667392)
apparently the CPAC folks have learned from this, and brought in their own headlining act to boost attendance.


Only because Prussian Blue sold out.
   260. base ball chick Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:42 PM (#4667393)
232. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 06, 2014 at 03:32 PM (#4667332)

You guys just like Kissinger because he was a big shot in your youth and it brings you pleasant memories of those carefree days. You need to let your boyhood heroes go.

I have to admit that's the first time I've ever heard anyone think that Henry Kissinger was anyone's boyhood hero. But then Boner Boy's always had a fevered imagination


- boner boy???

wellwellwell
i wouldn'ta nevah knowd it

you meaning sugar bear? don't tell me he's a pr0n stah in real life.

besides this thread is usedless without pics, as the story goes.

all this russsia/ukraine talk stuff is making me think of dr strangelove and premier henry kissoff and general buck turgid. is THAT where the boner boy stuff coming (hahaha) from?
   261. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:43 PM (#4667394)
Well, I've already offered you a perfectly fair deal if you really don't like the word. You can kill three birds with one stone.


Who needs a stone when you can bludgeon the birds to death with your tumescent manhood?
   262. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:47 PM (#4667399)
- boner boy???

wellwellwell
i wouldn'ta nevah knowd it

you meaning sugar bear? don't tell me he's a pr0n stah in real life.


Only in his workplace. He was the talk of the SEC.
   263. base ball chick Posted: March 06, 2014 at 05:53 PM (#4667403)
so he works as a pr0n stah
that is really interesting
havent had someone open about a hookah/pr0n life since bangkok 9 all those yeahs ago
   264. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 06, 2014 at 06:00 PM (#4667405)
Well, he was a modest one. Performed only with his clothes on. And strictly for fun, though he seemed to think that anyone who didn't join in was somewhat less of a man.
   265. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 06, 2014 at 06:07 PM (#4667408)
Kissinger's problem is in his principle #1, that the Ukrainians have the right to freely form their own economist and political associations. The crux of the current crisis is that Russians are irredeemably opposed to that.

Well, Kissinger's point is that we & the Europeans need to shore up the Ukrainians and deter/persuade the Russians in order to achieve that. It could be a long process, and one that can't really be accelerated by quick-fix solutions such as instant NATO membership for Ukraine. The Ukrainians will have to do their part, forming a government after elections, and the West should do what it can to make the world less dependent on Russian energy resources.
   266. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: March 06, 2014 at 06:29 PM (#4667419)
Here's the latest escapade from the "Tolerance For Me, But Not For Thee" crowd:
The Rutgers University New Brunswick Faculty Council approved a resolution yesterday urging the university’s Board of Governors to rescind its invitation to Condoleeza Rice to speak at commencement.

The Board of Governors voted earlier this month to award an honorary Doctor of Laws degree to Rice, who served as Secretary of State under President George W. Bush. She will be paid $35,000 for her commencement address.

But the faculty council cited her war record and her misleading of the public about the Iraq war as reasons for their opposition.

"Condoleezza Rice ... played a prominent role in (the Bush) administration’s effort to mislead the American people about the presence of weapons of mass destruction," according to the resolution. And she "at the very least condoned the Bush administration’s policy of ‘enhanced interrogation techniques’ such as waterboarding," it said.

"A Commencement speaker... should embody moral authority and exemplary citizenship," it continued, and "an honorary Doctor of Laws degree should not honor someone who participated in a political effort to circumvent the law."
   267. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: March 06, 2014 at 06:40 PM (#4667426)
Here's the latest escapade from the "Tolerance For Me, But Not For Thee" crowd:
i'm shocked...shocked...that killing hundreds of thousands of people and siphoning trillions of dollars from the american people would still be an issue all these years later.
   268. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 06, 2014 at 06:45 PM (#4667428)
Here's the latest escapade from the "Tolerance For Me, But Not For Thee" crowd:
Condi can say whatever she wants, so I call BS on making this a tolerance issue, but I'd be pretty smoked if my school forked over $35K so she could grace us with her presence.
   269. BDC Posted: March 06, 2014 at 06:48 PM (#4667430)
"Tolerance For Me, But Not For Thee"

Well, unless the Rutgers faculty has a history of eagerly inviting leftists with equally sketchy records, this stance isn't hypocritical, at any rate.
   270. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 06, 2014 at 06:58 PM (#4667433)
This seems like an unforced error - Pryor Accuses Opponent Of Having Sense Of Entitlement For Military Service:
In an interview with MSNBC that aired Wednesday, Pryor said of Cotton, “I think that’s part of this sense of entitlement, that he gives off, that is almost like, I served my country, therefore let me into the Senate. That’s not the way it works in Arkansas.”

Pryor's opponent, Congressman Tom Cotton earned a Bronze Star, Combat Infantry Badge and Ranger Tab during deployments to Iraq & Afghanistan. Pryor is already getting some push back from veterans groups & others. Probably not a good idea for someone holding their Daddy's old Senate seat to talk about others sense of entitlement.
   271. zonk Posted: March 06, 2014 at 06:58 PM (#4667434)
Here's the latest escapade from the "Tolerance For Me, But Not For Thee" crowd:


Yes, someone really should protect a politicos god-given right to deliver a commencement address and receive a nifty $35K honorarium and a nice little honorary doctorate.

I mean, this is the sort of thing our forefathers fought a war for!

   272. spike Posted: March 06, 2014 at 06:59 PM (#4667436)
The willful misunderstanding of the meaning of "tolerance" says a lot more about those who use it as a feeble gotcha than those they think they are upbraiding. It's right up there with the notion that the First Amendment offers protection from the consequences of speech.
   273. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:00 PM (#4667437)
Well, unless the Rutgers faculty has a history of eagerly inviting leftists with equally sketchy records, this stance isn't hypocritical, at any rate.

Surely you jest.
   274. Lassus Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:00 PM (#4667438)
Here's the latest escapade from the "Tolerance For Me, But Not For Thee" crowd:

Jason, what exactly is the issue here, for you?
   275. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:03 PM (#4667439)
"Tolerance For Me, But Not For Thee"
I'll take up for this. Rice, whatever her politics, is an accomplished person. There's no reason why she shouldn't be invited to speak at a commencement ceremony.

That said, I've heard from a shocking number of people who can't understand why so many are still mad about Iraq. Phrases like "honest mistake" and "wrong for all the right reasons" get used an awful lot. There was a sh!t ton of mistakes (and if you like, lying and whatnot) made involving Iraq, and those who committed them ought to rightfully be made to wear that albatross for the rest of their careers.
   276. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:05 PM (#4667440)
Here's the latest escapade from the "Tolerance For Me, But Not For Thee" crowd:

I wouldn't have any problem with having Condi Rice speak at any commencement, but I do have a problem with any university forking out $35K to anyone for a goddam speech. It's not as if universities aren't already doing public figures a favor by giving them a captive audience and guaranteed publicity.

That said, the time to have raised that issue was before the invitation was offered, not after. This is just one more example of universities whoring themselves out in the name of branding, but rescinding the offer at this point, especially given the political nature of the protest, smacks of nothing more than petty censorship. And if the faculty had directed its protest against the exorbitant** fee rather than the speaker, it would have had a lot more resonance.

**I don't care if that's the "going rate" for speakers in Rice's category. It's still way too much to pay anyone to speak at a public forum. I don't care if it's Condi, Obama, or even Pope Francis.
   277. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:06 PM (#4667442)
Yes, someone really should protect a politicos god-given right to deliver a commencement address and receive a nifty $35K honorarium and a nice little honorary doctorate.

I mean, this is the sort of thing our forefathers fought a war for!

I'm sure you were just this adamant last year when the disbarred Bill Clinton gave the Howard University commencement address.
   278. robinred Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:07 PM (#4667443)
so I call BS on making this a tolerance issue


Indeed. If you (Epstein) want to criticize the faculty for being too lefty for your tastes, or for politicizing commencement, fine. But it has nothing to do with "tolerance."

Acccording to this article, they started paying speakers in 2011, when they gave Toni Morrison 30K:

Morrison's commencement address raised eyebrows when it was reported that she would be the first speaker to be paid, receiving $30,000. Greg Brown, the vice chair of the Rutgers board of governors and CEO of Motorola Solutions, asked the university to turn his honorarium into scholarships for students when he spoke in 2012, McDonough said. Virginia Long, who retired from the state Supreme Court in 2012, turned down the money when she spoke last May.


The article says that the Rutgers Pres. is trying to get Obama for 2016. No word on what the faculty thinks about that.

http://articles.philly.com/2013-12-28/news/45629514_1_barchi-rutgers-students-rutgers-university



   279. Greg K Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:07 PM (#4667444)
I do have a problem with any university forking out $35K to anyone for a goddam speech.

Normally I'd agree, but there is one exception.
   280. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:08 PM (#4667445)
I'm sure you were just this adamant last year when the disbarred Bill Clinton gave the Howard University commencement address.


How many wars did Clinton help lie the U.S. into again?
   281. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:09 PM (#4667446)
I'm sure you were just this adamant when the disbarred Bill Clinton gave the Howard University commencement address last year.
And Jason springs the Gotcha!

(wanking motion)
   282. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:13 PM (#4667451)
How many wars did Clinton help lie the U.S. into again?
There are many people who still think Iraq was, at worst a well-intentioned mistake, and at best completely totally justified even today. I think their wrong (like, really, really, really, REALLY wrong) but I don't feel the need to blot them from the discussion.

What was Rice going to say that was going to be so offensive? Commencement speeches are almost completely apolitical across the board: Believe in yourself, work hard, you are tomorrow's leaders. Care about your community and your country. Be honest. Be true. Rice wasn't going to be delivering a stump speech, she was getting paid to give a feel-good, congrats-on-graduating type of speech. It's as benign as can be.
   283. Lassus Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:15 PM (#4667453)
Pryor's opponent, Congressman Tom Cotton earned a Bronze Star, Combat Infantry Badge and Ranger Tab during deployments to Iraq & Afghanistan. Pryor is already getting some push back from veterans groups & others.

They can push back all they want. WTF does your description of Cotton have to do with being in Congress?


Probably not a good idea for someone holding their Daddy's old Senate seat to talk about others sense of entitlement.

And then, watch with wonder and horror as I completely agree with this. It's like the Devil's interval, this madness, is it not?
   284. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:15 PM (#4667454)
As if it was serious. Geez, no one around here has ever used any construction like it before. I don't think I'd ever even heard the term "boyhood hero" until it spontaneously popped into my head an hour ago.

I read it as a joke and thought it was amusing. And I normally find you pretty insufferable.

And I agree that it's ridiculous for a public university to pay $35k for a commencement speech.
   285. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:17 PM (#4667455)
Morrison's commencement address raised eyebrows when it was reported that she would be the first speaker to be paid, receiving $30,000.

Which is only $5000 less absurd than forking out $35,000 to Condi, no matter what you might think of the merits of either. Exactly how many eyebrows were raised then?

Greg Brown, the vice chair of the Rutgers board of governors and CEO of Motorola Solutions, asked the university to turn his honorarium into scholarships for students when he spoke in 2012, McDonough said. Virginia Long, who retired from the state Supreme Court in 2012, turned down the money when she spoke last May.

One might like to think that these two would have established some sort of a precedent.
   286. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:18 PM (#4667456)

What was Rice going to say that was going to be so offensive? Commencement speeches are almost completely apolitical across the board: Believe in yourself, work hard, you are tomorrow's leaders. Care about your community and your country. Be honest. Be true. Rice wasn't going to be delivering a stump speech, she was getting paid to give a feel-good, congrats-on-graduating type of speech. It's as benign as can be.

I presume the argument is that you are bestowing an honor (and $$$) on a person who is not deserving of it. Not that she is going to say something offensive.
   287. robinred Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:18 PM (#4667457)
smacks of nothing more than petty censorship.


Nah. People protest about speakers speaking in certain venues for various reasons all the time. Censorship would be saying that there should be laws or rules saying that Rice shouldn't speak anywhere to anybody in any medium--shouldn't be allowed on TV or the radio, shouldn't be allowed to write books, shouldn't be allowed on talk shows. In this case, we have some faculty members who are saying that they don't want Rice speaking at the school that they work at on this particular occasion, because of her connection to a war they thought was immoral. You can say that's bullshitt if you want, or you could call them out for excessive partisanship if they wanted John Kerry instead, but it isn't "censorship."
   288. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:21 PM (#4667458)
Not censorship, probably partisanship, shouldn't pay a dime for a commencement speaker. It's highly gauche and bizarre, and a poor example, for Rice to even ask for and accept the money.
   289. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:22 PM (#4667459)
I think they're wrong (like, really, really, really, REALLY wrong) but I don't feel the need to blot them from the discussion.
Neither do I - if they've admitted to their mistake and done some soul searching on why they were wrong. But that hasn't happened with most of the major architects of the Iraq ####-up. And so we get Dick Cheney, of all people, carping at the Obama administration for not being sufficiently warmongerish against Russia. That's astounding.
   290. robinred Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:26 PM (#4667461)
It's highly gauche and bizarre, and a poor example, for Rice to even ask for and accept the money.


Well, we don't know that she did ask for it or if she plans to accept it (my guess is that she won't). They may have just offered it since they have offered $ to the three most recent speakers.

Also, while it is very nice and decent for people like Brown to ask that the $ go to sholarships, I personally don't really have an issue with famous/powerful people making $ off their names from speaking fees from big unis if they want to. The unis offering it is sort of lame--I do agree there.
   291. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:26 PM (#4667462)
smacks of nothing more than petty censorship.


Nah. People protest about speakers speaking in certain venues for various reasons all the time. Censorship would be saying that there should be laws or rules saying that Rice shouldn't speak anywhere to anybody in any medium--shouldn't be allowed on TV or the radio, shouldn't be allowed to write books, shouldn't be allowed on talk shows. In this case, we have some faculty members who are saying that they don't want Rice speaking at the school that they work at on this particular occasion, because of her connection to a war they thought was immoral. You can say that's bullshitt if you want, or you could call them out for excessive partisanship if they wanted John Kerry instead, but it isn't "censorship."


robin, that's a valid lexicographer's point, but in this context it's little more than that. I'd be saying the same thing if the university had invited Eric Snowden and the NSA wing of the faculty had tried to get the offer rescinded. When an invitation has been offered and accepted, then to rescind it for nothing but political reasons is the purest form of censorship that in this context is within the university's power to engage in.

As I said upthread, the time to raise this was before the invitation was made. At that point there would have been no question of censorship, since Condi hadn't even been offered a platform to remove.
   292. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:29 PM (#4667464)
Neither do I - if they've admitted to their mistake and done some soul searching on why they were wrong. But that hasn't happened with most of the major architects of the Iraq ####-up. And so we get Dick Cheney, of all people, carping at the Obama administration for not being sufficiently warmongerish against Russia. That's astounding.

Jesus, now what? Self-criticism sessions as a condition for commencement speakers? Who gets to vet the speaker's purity?
   293. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:31 PM (#4667466)
Also, while it is very nice and decent for people like Brown to ask that the $ go to sholarships, I personally don't really have an issue with famous/powerful people making $ off their names from speaking fees from big unis if they want to. The unis offering it is sort of lame--I do agree there.

I do "blame" these ultra-wealthy speakers for taking these outrageous sums, but I also agree that the underlying fault lies with the universities for offering it to them. Where is collusion now that we need it?
   294. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:34 PM (#4667467)
I presume the argument is that you are bestowing an honor (and $$$) on a person who is not deserving of it.
Whether or not the person is deserving is a matter of opinion. Nor do I have a problem with the money. You can get yourself a pretty big name with that type of cash and that can attract a lot of attention. It's advertising.

I don't have any problem with her appearance being protested, though.
   295. robinred Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:38 PM (#4667468)
Andy, the Pres of Rutgers and the Board of Governors will make the call on whether Rice speaks, not the faculty, or the Faculty Council, in this case. You need actual power to censor people. The invitation has not been rescinded, and it is IMO highly unlikely that it will be.

To what extent the Faculty Council reflects the majority faculty view is unknown. If you want to take it up directly, here is the webpage for the New Brunswick Faculty Council:

http://nbfc.rutgers.edu/year13_14/members.html

The Chair is a Chem Prof, BTW.

And since you seem concerned with timing, you need to consider the possibility that the faculty was not consulted on who the speaker would be, and didn't know about it until after the invite was made.
   296. GregD Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:47 PM (#4667472)
I had always understood that universities did not pay when people got honorary degrees. The idea is that the degree is enough. I think it is a travesty to pay someone for the joy of getting an honorary degree.

At all other times, of course, universities pay speakers lots of money. (Newt used to get 50k per speech, which is part of why he encouraged groups to protest the alleged lack of conservative speakers. It was a great scam for him; students would protest, the university would invite all kinds of local people, and then someone close to the situation would let the university know the only way to stop the protests was to shell out 50 large to Newt. What a prince.)

   297. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:48 PM (#4667473)
Abertson parent Cerberus buys Safeway


Well not sure how the Ukraine situation is going to work out but I can guarantee this isnt going to go well.
   298. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:49 PM (#4667474)
Albertson's is awful.
   299. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 06, 2014 at 07:59 PM (#4667476)
"Tolerance For Me, But Not For Thee"
I'll take up for this. Rice, whatever her politics, is an accomplished person. There's no reason why she shouldn't be invited to speak at a commencement ceremony.


edited due to incoherency
   300. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 06, 2014 at 08:05 PM (#4667478)
In this case, we have some faculty members who are saying that they don't want Rice speaking at the school that they work at on this particular occasion, because of her connection to a war they thought was immoral. You can say that's bullshitt if you want, or you could call them out for excessive partisanship if they wanted John Kerry instead, but it isn't "censorship."


exactly, but assuming an opportunity I also think the more proper time for the profs to "speak out" is before the invite goes out not after.
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