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Wednesday, March 05, 2014

OTP - March 2014: Russia denies calling shots in Ukraine’s Crimea standoff

Only Babe Ruth calls shots!

At a press conference for Kremlin-controlled media on Tuesday, Putin reiterated his position that Moscow has the right to use “all means” necessary to protect ethnic Russians and vital military assets in Ukraine, first among them the Black Sea fleet in the Crimean port of Sevastopol.

 

Bitter Mouse Posted: March 05, 2014 at 08:54 AM | 3254 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: lies, politics, war

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   3101. spike Posted: March 27, 2014 at 10:47 AM (#4677754)
Seems like the NCAA has a real problem. How can they survive in a free market economy?
   3102. zonk Posted: March 27, 2014 at 10:51 AM (#4677757)
God yes... I hate the Star Trek reboots... even the bad originals -- III, V, and the crossover, and the dumb Romulan Picard one were better...

Fortunately/at least, Lucas already ruined Star Wars so let Abrams make the ashes worse, who cares.

I don't even want to think about what else he could get his MTV video-inspired direction and dumbass "hey, I've got a kernel of a really good idea now how can I best go about ruining it in the actual execution" screenwriting on...

Someone ought to suggest he should try fixing Gigli or something... you know, to keep him busy for a while.
   3103. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 27, 2014 at 10:54 AM (#4677758)
Dark Knight Rises was awful. Prometheus level plot holes. Why is it so hard to find a competent writer?


The problem is too many writers, not too few.
   3104. Greg K Posted: March 27, 2014 at 11:00 AM (#4677763)
I don't even want to think about what else he could get his MTV video-inspired direction and dumbass "hey, I've got a kernel of a really good idea now how can I best go about ruining it in the actual execution" screenwriting on...

Perhaps I'm in the minority, but I think Lost demonstrates the ideal involvement of Abrams. Give the TV executives a much better idea than the uninspired project they had to that point, then leave and have no real input into the show once it starts getting made.
   3105. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: March 27, 2014 at 11:02 AM (#4677765)

Because CA exists to be the fulcrum/leader of the Avengers in the MCU.


Well sure, but the Winter Soldier only exists because the rest of the CA villains and storylines became old and stale. Why blow your nut on the sequel?
   3106. Lassus Posted: March 27, 2014 at 11:07 AM (#4677770)
Well sure, but the Winter Soldier only exists because the rest of the CA villains and storylines became old and stale. Why blow your nut on the sequel?

Well, see how the DC movie universe is cashing in on the long, long, long history of movie Batman and Superman interacting with THEIR battle?

Exactly.
   3107. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 27, 2014 at 11:13 AM (#4677776)
Well sure, but the Winter Soldier only exists because the rest of the CA villains and storylines became old and stale. Why blow your nut on the sequel?


Because the meta-narrative the MCU is trying to tell, pivoting off of Captain America, can use the Winter Soldier story to its advantage. The rest, as you say, are old and stale. To tell the story of America's post-War image of itself in conflict with the fact of American adventurous imperialism driven by the Cold War and "terrorism" you need the Winter Soldier. You don't need a set piece about Nazis.
   3108. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 27, 2014 at 11:19 AM (#4677780)
On economics I'll continue to trust Krugman. On issues of aggregate polling, I'll trust 538. I'm not sure why I'd trust either one outside of their area of expertise any more than the other.

If you read the just-released TPM page that quotes both sides of the "feud" at length, you'll see that it seems like a lot of hyperbole on Krugman's part, and a lot of marketing strategy on Silver's. Krugman's main specific criticism is Nate's giving so much play to a non-scientist on the question of global warming, and Silver's main charge against Krugman and pundits in general is that he doesn't like punditry, with the one apparent exception of Ross Douthat.

IOW for Nate this is all about his "fox vs hedgehog" dichotomy, which is a nice catchphrase that pundits use on a regular basis, and doesn't really say much of any substance. Somehow I don't think this Big Deal Quarrel is going to have a whole lot of legs, and in any case, I don't think it has much to do with Nate's current election predictions.
   3109. spike Posted: March 27, 2014 at 11:24 AM (#4677783)
it's exactly the kind of gossip column/horse race story that Silver (and probably Krugman) view as emblematic of what's wrong with political journalism.
   3110. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: March 27, 2014 at 11:27 AM (#4677786)
That Silver column is embarrassing. It's not funny or interesting.
   3111. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 27, 2014 at 11:30 AM (#4677787)
It wouldn't be shocking if Nate has let his sudden fame go to his head. Again, his methodology for aggregate polling is sound and useful (and even he notes that he wasn't the only reasonably successful guy in that game in 2012.) But he does seem to be developing that same sort of internal "stat dorks against the entrenched old men of baseball" scenario again, which is boring and cliche already.
   3112. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 27, 2014 at 11:35 AM (#4677790)
It wouldn't be shocking if Nate has let his sudden fame go to his head. Again, his methodology for aggregate polling is sound and useful (and even he notes that he wasn't the only reasonably successful guy in that game in 2012.) But he does seem to be developing that same sort of internal "stat dorks against the entrenched old men of baseball" scenario again, which is boring and cliche already.

Yeah, that's the one thing I'd be concerned about, especially since underneath the surface that "us vs them" pose is little more than a transparent marketing gimmick that meets with reality in some cases a lot better than others.
   3113. zonk Posted: March 27, 2014 at 11:42 AM (#4677795)
Irony is always fun... but I wouldn't discount Andy's point either -- I mean, "punditry sucks, but we all read it, so read me instead" is a pretty tried and true angle that's been applied to pretty much everything under the sun: X sucks, but I want to consume better X, so I produced better X - here, buy my new and improved X.
   3114. Mefisto Posted: March 27, 2014 at 11:53 AM (#4677800)
I was really excited at the potential for Nate's site, and I bookmarked it when it opened. Today I deleted the bookmark because the content has been so poor. If he ever gets his act together, I'll read it again.
   3115. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 27, 2014 at 11:58 AM (#4677803)
The only thing that would deter me from reading 538 would be if he got so stung by criticism that he reacted by retreating to the hackneyed modes of reflexive contrarianism and picking catfights. Somehow I can't really see that happening with Nate, if for no other reason than self-respect.
   3116. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 27, 2014 at 12:02 PM (#4677806)
There is probably a content-fill problem with the expanded 538 model. Not every story lends itself to data analysis. But to a data guy armed with a spreadsheet, every nail is a regression curve.
   3117. Lassus Posted: March 27, 2014 at 12:02 PM (#4677807)
Nate should play the long game and false-predict a massive GOP win, (Yes, YC, we all know it's going to be a win already, but I mean really really overshooting) so when he's wrong various heads will explode.
   3118. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: March 27, 2014 at 12:05 PM (#4677808)

I was really excited at the potential for Nate's site, and I bookmarked it when it opened. Today I deleted the bookmark because the content has been so poor. If he ever gets his act together, I'll read it again.


Ditto. I nearly fell asleep at the first article I read (the one on migration from cities). People are moving out of economically struggling cities. What a fresh angle!

I'll give the site a chance, but none of the articles I read were interesting, and it was quite a slog just to get through them.
   3119. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: March 27, 2014 at 12:09 PM (#4677811)
Because the meta-narrative the MCU is trying to tell, pivoting off of Captain America, can use the Winter Soldier story to its advantage. The rest, as you say, are old and stale. To tell the story of America's post-War image of itself in conflict with the fact of American adventurous imperialism driven by the Cold War and "terrorism" you need the Winter Soldier. You don't need a set piece about Nazis.


I still think it's a waste of a surprise. People new to the CA story (and the success of these movies is bringing in a lot of new audiences) will not react as much to the return of Bucky because he is in the 1st movie and then immediately in the 2nd.
   3120. Shredder Posted: March 27, 2014 at 01:29 PM (#4677847)
   3121. Srul Itza Posted: March 27, 2014 at 01:35 PM (#4677856)
I still think it's a waste of a surprise. People new to the CA story (and the success of these movies is bringing in a lot of new audiences) will not react as much to the return of Bucky because he is in the 1st movie and then immediately in the 2nd.


The comics ran for 40 years, with "the loss of Bucky" being a big deal before finally bringing him back. Movies don't have that kind of time frame to work on. I don't think this is going to be another James Bond series with movies running forever. Make the money while you can, and cash in on the current kids.

Also, they have Cap awakening in 2013. When Cap first awakened in the comics, it was 1964. WWII had only been over for 19 years, and Nazis were still a pretty big deal, with the "Greatest Generation" essentially running everything. You also had Cold War I going on.

Now, it is almost 70 years since the end of WWII. Hell, it is 25 years since the fall of the Berlin Wall -- a longer stretch than the end of WWII when Cap was revived in Avengers No. 4. Those themes are simply not going to play.
   3122. OCF Posted: March 27, 2014 at 01:47 PM (#4677865)
Something to ask Steve Treder: is Leland Yee actually his state senator? (My best guess is that it's actually the next district over - but nearby.) My reaction: what the what? The indictment itself is out there, and makes for some lurid reading.

One thing I haven't yet gauged is the reaction in the Chinese-American community. Whether there's any reflexive defensiveness, or whether there would be real anger directed towards Yee: "This isn't who our community is in the 21st century. Shame on him for playing into old bad stereotypes."
   3123. zenbitz Posted: March 27, 2014 at 02:05 PM (#4677874)
The State Senate in CA has been totally corrupt for about 40 years. Democrats!
   3124. JE (Jason) Posted: March 27, 2014 at 02:10 PM (#4677881)
Tango weighs in on Silver vs. Krugman:
Nate has this on his byline, but he is writing it in the third person, doing his best Rickey Henderson impression.

It’s fun to look at the chart that Nate produced. He associates his position (pre-NYT, in-NYT, post-NYT) as the key variable of Krugman’s bias. He however ignores that Krugman follows the “grumpy old man” curve as well. In order to eliminate that, Nate needs to look at other people that Krugman talks about, and see what his views are of them. For all we know, Krugman may have become cynical overnight. [Italics mine.]

Finally: who is Paul Krugman anyway? I guess I should wiki him.

Exculpating Krugman by comparing him to Murray Chass? Um, ok. :-)
   3125. OCF Posted: March 27, 2014 at 03:15 PM (#4677888)
The CA state senate has only 40 seats, and the state assembly only 80 seats. Take the population of the state and divide by those numbers - those are some absurdly large districts, as state legislatures go. It takes a lot of money to run, and then once they're in, every state legislator has outsized power compared to those in other states. I would be in favor of dramatically increasing the size of both houses.
   3126. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: March 27, 2014 at 03:28 PM (#4677895)
The comics ran for 40 years, with "the loss of Bucky" being a big deal before finally bringing him back. Movies don't have that kind of time frame to work on. I don't think this is going to be another James Bond series with movies running forever. Make the money while you can, and cash in on the current kids.

Also, they have Cap awakening in 2013. When Cap first awakened in the comics, it was 1964. WWII had only been over for 19 years, and Nazis were still a pretty big deal, with the "Greatest Generation" essentially running everything. You also had Cold War I going on.

Now, it is almost 70 years since the end of WWII. Hell, it is 25 years since the fall of the Berlin Wall -- a longer stretch than the end of WWII when Cap was revived in Avengers No. 4. Those themes are simply not going to play.


There have already been 8 marvel movies, with another 4 in development (including a 3rd Captain America), with a combined $5.6B box office return on $1.3B production costs. Not sure why these movies couldn't stick around for quite a while assuming the storylines are there.

I am not saying the Captain has to be fighting Nazis (the Commie-Nazi line was from the Simpsons), not being a CA fan I couldn't tell you any of his major story lines, but surely there were SOME out there that would work without jumping straight to 2nd most famous (CA getting shot I'd rank at #1).

It's what bugs me so much about the X-Men movies. After a solid start they just careened out of control like a drunken Michael Bay and went bigger and bigger with everything - until they have killed off iconic characters that will now require resurrections that no one likes in order to keep any semblance of a story. How ####### hard is it to milk a 40 year old comic for 5 movies before you shoot yourself in the face?
   3127. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 27, 2014 at 03:33 PM (#4677897)
So everyone wants to know, Why the secrecy?

With a March 31 deadline looming, the White House announced Thursday that more than 6 million people have signed up for health insurance through online marketplaces created by the Affordable Care Act.


What are they trying to hide?

Both state and federal marketplaces have seen a surge of activity ahead of Monday’s deadline. On Wednesday there were more than 1.5 million visits to the federal site, HealthCare.gov, and more than 430,000 calls to call centers, according to the White House. The administration previously announced the site — the marketplace for 36 states — drew 1.2 million visitors Tuesday and 1.1 million Monday.


Conspiracy or just incompetence?

Unofficial estimates from insurance companies and some state-run marketplaces suggest that as many as 20% of consumers have yet to pay their premiums, although some of those may not have been billed yet.


Congress needs to open an investigation. Somebody contact Issa.
   3128. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 27, 2014 at 03:39 PM (#4677902)
There have already been 8 marvel movies


And not a dog in the bunch. Some merely good, but none have disappointed me. Frankly a MUCH better run than I expected, and nearing the initial Pixar run of movies in terms of high quality without a loser. Until they screw up, at this point I am giving them the benefit of the doubt.
   3129. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: March 27, 2014 at 03:41 PM (#4677906)
The first Thor wasn't great, but it certainly wasn't terrible. Ditto for the second Iron man.
   3130. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 27, 2014 at 03:45 PM (#4677908)
Ditto for the second Iron man.


See I liked iron Man 2 more than the first and much more than 3. I liked the villain in 2 and Black Widow is a plus in any movie. But my opinion on the ordering of the 3 movies is a minority opinion.
   3131. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 27, 2014 at 03:50 PM (#4677912)
There have already been 8 marvel movies, with another 4 in development (including a 3rd Captain America), with a combined $5.6B box office return on $1.3B production costs. Not sure why these movies couldn't stick around for quite a while assuming the storylines are there.


Fox is reportedly planning on spinning out a major tent-pole on the X-Men reboot as well. And of course, there's Sony's Spider-Man complex. And that rebooted Fantastic Four concept.

But I think you have it wrong here. There are a few iconic comic story lines that can hold up to adaptation. The Dark Phoenix saga and Days of Future Past series are the two obvious arcs in the X-verse, with Wolverine stand alones, and a likely Gambit movie eventually. They're also talking about an X-Force spin-off. In the CA universe, there aren't a lot of deep plotlines outside of the Winter Soldier and Civil War. The character is iconic, in a punching-Hitler sort of way, but the stories about him are not. (Much like no one cares much about the first 40 years of Batman/Detective comic stories outside of the creation myth and the Joker.)

And gods know, we'd hate for the movies to actually write new stories for their plots. I'm not sure we could deal with original material in a movie plot.
   3132. Lassus Posted: March 27, 2014 at 04:01 PM (#4677920)
...and a likely Gambit movie eventually.

Gambit on film so far has been really pointless.

And I doubt any studio but Marvel would translate the Dark Phoenix saga well. I haven't liked any of the X-men films so far, and whereas First Class was the best of the lot, and I enjoyed it when I watched it, a second viewing really causes it to suffer.
   3133. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 27, 2014 at 04:01 PM (#4677921)
That Silver column is embarrassing. It's not funny or interesting.

I don't know what to make of it, a failed attempt at humor or a really clumsy stab at attacking the messenger.
   3134. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 27, 2014 at 04:07 PM (#4677929)
The CA state senate has only 40 seats . . .

Yet Yee is the 3rd Democratic CA State Senator facing charges this year, one of whom has already been convicted.
   3135. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 27, 2014 at 04:08 PM (#4677930)
God yes... I hate the Star Trek reboots... even the bad originals -- III, V, and the crossover, and the dumb Romulan Picard one were better...

Fortunately/at least, Lucas already ruined Star Wars so let Abrams make the ashes worse, who cares.


My impression of the Star Trek reboots was that Abrams had never watched the TV series only the film series.
The decision to essentially remake/reboot Wrath of Khan was baffling and pointless, no fan of the series would ever have done that, why do that? why remake something that was done well the first time, if they were gonna go mine past arcs/threads the series had numerous launching points to choose from.
   3136. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 27, 2014 at 04:11 PM (#4677935)
Gambit on film so far has been really pointless.


Gambit, the character, is far more popular with Gen Y fans than with our generation of X-Men fans. A Gambit movie would, I think, have to revolve around his relationship with Rogue. You are correct that as a "hey, look, it's a random Gambit cameo!" in that atrocious "Wolverine: Origins" movie he was pointless. Of course, it's quite likely that the "Wolverine: Origins" story, both in the comics and on film, is the worst ####### idea the X-franchise has ever spit out. Just utterly horrific destruction of the character, really.

And I doubt any studio but Marvel would translate the Dark Phoenix saga well. I haven't liked any of the X-men films so far, and whereas First Class was the best of the lot, and I enjoyed it when I watched it, a second viewing really causes it to suffer.


It's a hard story to tell, and it doesn't really come across well in the original X film series. Of course, you never really get much of the love triangle between Scott/Jean/Logan in the movies either. They really utterly screwed up the Cyclops/Summers character.
   3137. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 27, 2014 at 04:25 PM (#4677942)
The decision to essentially remake/reboot Wrath of Khan was baffling and pointless, no fan of the series would ever have done that, why do that? why remake something that was done well the first time, if they were gonna go mine past arcs/threads the series had numerous launching points to choose from.


In order to maintain some semblance of internal consistency with the narrative? If you drop into an alternate reality, which is the premise of the reboot, and start at the point in time where they do, then you have to deal with Khan being "still out there" in that reality. The underlying premise of the reboots is that Spoke-Prime's time travel has seriously disrupted the "natural" flow of events in the Beta universe, but that nonetheless the power of certain character personalities are such that they will "out" toward their rightful place regardless. (It's kind of creepy in this notion of destined Great Men Of History line of thinking.) That's why you get all of the thrash about getting Kirk back to his "rightful" place as Captain. It's not merely giving the audience the captain they expect. It's the fundamental conceit of the narrative. Despite the clusterfcvking of the universe by Splodeying up Vulcan, etc, Kirk will naturally gravitate to captainness, Spock and Kirk will find a way to build a friendship, Scotty will get slapped onto the Enterprise by hook or crook. In that systemic universe, if Khan is out there, he must come into play. Khan is too strong of a force of will in that universe to be left floating indefinitely in space.
   3138. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: March 27, 2014 at 04:31 PM (#4677948)
I don't think the story is well known, but I like the Captain America arc with Deathlok. That could be an interesting movie.
   3139. Jim Wisinski Posted: March 27, 2014 at 04:37 PM (#4677949)
Didn't the Tet kill 99% of everyone on Earth? (I've got a hunch Ray and Andy were the only Primates who survived.)


I assume it was long enough into the future that Harveys would have passed away? Because I'm quite certain he would kick the #### out of any alien invaders.
   3140. Lassus Posted: March 27, 2014 at 04:45 PM (#4677954)
I didn't hate the new Trek movies, and neither did various Trek fans I know of.
   3141. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 27, 2014 at 04:47 PM (#4677956)
I don't think the story is well known, but I like the Captain America arc with Deathlok. That could be an interesting movie.


That's interesting, in that Deathlok is one of the "supers" they've introduced via Marvel's Agents Of S.H.E.I.L.D.
   3142. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: March 27, 2014 at 04:54 PM (#4677959)
Is the show any good?
   3143. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: March 27, 2014 at 04:56 PM (#4677962)
A Gambit movie would, I think, have to revolve around his relationship with Rogue.


But the movie version of Rogue is so far from the comic book Rogue that it would feel really weird.
   3144. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 27, 2014 at 04:59 PM (#4677963)
Is the show any good?


Agents of SHIELD? It got better. It has good episodes and meh episodes. I thought last week's "let's bring in some Asgardians" ep was pointless. But they're developing a super-Coulon angle, and have spun out a good back story for Deathlok. It's not great, but it's not bad.
   3145. Steve Treder Posted: March 27, 2014 at 04:59 PM (#4677964)
Something to ask Steve Treder: is Leland Yee actually his state senator? (My best guess is that it's actually the next district over - but nearby.)

A couple of districts over. My state senator is Ellen Corbett.

One thing I haven't yet gauged is the reaction in the Chinese-American community. Whether there's any reflexive defensiveness, or whether there would be real anger directed towards Yee: "This isn't who our community is in the 21st century. Shame on him for playing into old bad stereotypes."

I don't think there is such a thing as "the" reaction in the Chinese-American community. It's quite diverse.
   3146. Srul Itza Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:03 PM (#4677965)
And not a dog in the bunch


I didn't care for Iron Man 3 much, and Iron Man 2 was barely passable and barely comprehensible.

Iron Man 1, Thor 1 and Thor 2, Captain America and Avengers I liked.

I count 7 there. What was the 8th?
   3147. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:03 PM (#4677966)
Of course, it's quite likely that the "Wolverine: Origins" story, both in the comics and on film, is the worst ####### idea the X-franchise has ever spit out. Just utterly horrific destruction of the character, really.


Agreed. He went from crazy Conan bad-ass with a healing power and severe mental blocks to...semi-immortal being that wrestles with archangels to recover in between periods of massacring people under mind control, periods of fighting with the good side, back to semi-crazy bad side action, to genetically manufactured wolf-man hybrid evolution offspring. It's sorta a bit much.
   3148. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:07 PM (#4677970)
Also, Sabertooth was his dad, not his brother.
   3149. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:14 PM (#4677974)

I count 7 there. What was the 8th?


The Incredible Hulk (the one with Ed Norton - the change to Ruffalo was an upgrade for sure). The worst of the 8, but it still made money.

Also, Sabertooth was his dad, not his brother.


I think Origins may have hinted at the brother thing - but that was changed. Sabertooth just has a special fondness for Wolverine.

EDIT:
I think the death count for Sabretooth may be at 4 by now. I mean, just ####### move on if you want to kill someone 3 times.
   3150. Srul Itza Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:16 PM (#4677976)
I stopped reading comics in 1987. Given that description of what happened to the origins of Weapon X, I am not sorry.
   3151. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:16 PM (#4677978)
Iron Man 2 was at least as good, perhaps better than Iron Man 1. Iron Man 3 was pretty good, too.

There have already been 8 marvel movies


What about all the Spider-Man movies??
   3152. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:17 PM (#4677980)
I didn't hate the new Trek movies, and neither did various Trek fans I know of.


You don't know any Trek fans, then.
   3153. Srul Itza Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:18 PM (#4677981)
Both Hulk movies sucked. The first one with Eric Bana and Nick Nolte was beyond terrible. The second had that good chase scene through the favela, but owns still pretty sad.
   3154. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:21 PM (#4677984)
Dredd was a better comic book movie than any of that Marvel corn.
   3155. steagles Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:22 PM (#4677986)
I count 7 there. What was the 8th?
the hulk ones?
   3156. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:24 PM (#4677987)
Both Hulk movies sucked.


That's because to get a star to sign on, you have to make a Bruce Banner movie instead of a Hulk movie.
   3157. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:28 PM (#4677992)
Where have you gone, Lou Ferrigno??
   3158. The District Attorney Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:31 PM (#4677994)
I have no affinity for Trek and liked Into Darkness a lot. My friend who is a TOS/TNG fan loved it as well. I just thought it was a good action flick (although I didn't think destroying a city added anything). My friend thought it was cool how they utilized his knowledge of the original movies to play with his expectations.

That said, I can totally accept that if you like Trek for its emphasis on philosophy, you shouldn't particularly like these movies. I can't imagine even Abrams himself would deny that he is really more of a Star Wars guy than a Star Trek guy. If you stripped out the Hero with a Thousand Faces stuff about Luke and just had the gang from A New Hope running around having spaceship adventures, you'd basically have these Trek movies. (I suppose Firefly is the quicker way to say that.)

I think it's unfair, though, to say Abrams' Trek movies represent poor filmmaking. If you think they'd be fine as long as they were called something else and it wasn't supposed to be the same characters, then you're not saying it's a bad movie. Just (in your opinion, natch) a bad Star Trek movie.
   3159. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:32 PM (#4677995)
I haven't seen the Norton one, but the movie with Eric Bana was terrible.

The first Wolverine movie was pretty bad, but I liked the second one until the last 15 minutes.
   3160. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:37 PM (#4677999)
then you have to deal with Khan being "still out there" in that reality.


EVERYTHING in the original series was still out there (well except the Planet Vulcan)- he could have mined any of it- instead he mined one that was already mined
   3161. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:45 PM (#4678003)
I have no affinity for Trek and liked Into Darkness a lot. My friend who is a TOS/TNG fan loved it as well. I just thought it was a good action flick (although I didn't think destroying a city added anything). My friend thought it was cool how they utilized his knowledge of the original movies to play with his expectations.

That said, I can totally accept that if you like Trek for its emphasis on philosophy, you shouldn't particularly like these movies. I can't imagine even Abrams himself would deny that he is really more of a Star Wars guy than a Star Trek guy. If you stripped out the Hero with a Thousand Faces stuff about Luke and just had the gang from A New Hope going around on spaceship adventures, you'd basically have these Trek movies. (I suppose Firefly is the quicker way to say that.)


I think the blow back from Trekkies is misplaced. I have seen every ST film at least twice, and saw the last four in theater the week of their release. I strongly prefer Trek to Star Wars, though admittedly I preferred TNG to the original series. (Neither ages well, by the way.) I think the fans who hate what Abrams reboots fail to grasp is that the entire point of the reboot was to bring the ST concept back into some relevancy with modern times. TOS and the Shatner/Nimoy movies are essentially artifacts of the Cold War. They're explorations of civil rights and Cold War America through the lens of a utopian future. TNG is an exploration of the "peace dividend", "end of history" 1990s America through that same lens. The reboot asks the same meta-narrative question that the Marvel movies ask; how does America and her utopian ideals deal with a world thrown in to chaos by genocidal terrorism? The reboot, artistically compromised as any blockbuster summer popcorn flick is going to be, is still at heart an exploration of post-9/11 America, through the lens of Rodenberry's somewhat dated ideal utopia. That's the whole point, artistically.

Complaining that the reboot's alternate reality is too militaristic and exits Roddenberry's hippie-driven vision of peaceful exploration misses the point entirely. The fact that the universe has been thrown out of the "end of history" dreams put forth by TNG and is clogged up with questions of how to balance militarism with our national/Federational ideals is the *entire driving question.* The Abrams ST movies have some holes in them. The "What's Wrong With..." episodes on them are funny and correct. (I particularly like the insane water tunnels existing for no reason on a star ship element of the first one.) But not living within the strict confines of the original ST's utopianism isn't one of them.
   3162. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:48 PM (#4678005)
EVERYTHING in the original series was still out there (well except the Planet Vulcan)- he could have mined any of it- instead he mined one that was already mined


Again, this ignores the pretty explicitly argued notion within the film universe that certain characters, by dint of their wills and personalities, will simply inevitably collide in some way or another. There is no will to power or personality in the original ST universe other than James T. Kirk stronger than that of Khan. Based on the basic idea of the universe, there is no way that Kirk and Khan can *not* meet in the rebooted timeline.
   3163. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 27, 2014 at 05:52 PM (#4678007)

Complaining that the reboot's alternate reality is too militaristic and exits Roddenberry's hippie-driven vision of peaceful exploration misses the point entirely. The fact that the universe has been thrown out of the "end of history" dreams put forth by TNG and is clogged up with questions of how to balance militarism with our national/Federational ideals is the *entire driving question.* T


I would strongly disagree (and if you agree with it, then mothball Trek entirely), but that wasn't the biggest problem with the new reboot. The biggest problem was that they completely screwed up the characters. Kirk in the first Abrams movie is completely incompetent and insubordinate. He makes not a single useful decision in the entire movie. There is no way that any competent military would give a starship to such a hothead.
   3164. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 27, 2014 at 06:23 PM (#4678017)
The biggest problem was that they completely screwed up the characters.


A 1000x this. Every character is worse in new universe. In fact everything is worse, except the special effects. The government is dark, the characters are all flaws, and so on.

Plus the movies were only OK. Well paced and plenty "actiony". But they were not Star Trek. Which was fine. After the first movie I got over it, I walked in and let go of it being Star Trek filled with characters I loved, and just wanted a non-Star trek action movie.

And what did they do? They mined Star Trek history relentlessly. They stole from Wrath of Khan and did it worse. It was a cheap emotional bit and lazy to boot. And it rubbed my nose in the fact that this, despite my best efforts to let it go, is Star Trek. Just a really crappy Star Trek.
   3165. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 27, 2014 at 06:25 PM (#4678018)
Again, this ignores the pretty explicitly argued notion within the film universe that certain characters, by dint of their wills and personalities, will simply inevitably collide in some way or another.


No, I'm not ignoring that, you are ignoring the fact that Star Trek was more than Kirk v. Khan, and is and was not limited to the "film universe" (Film meaning theatrical movies).

Batman Begins didn't cadge off the Tim Burton (and others) movies, rather its main villain was an important one in the comics- but ignored in both the prior film and TV series.

Khan was one villain among many in the series, he quite frankly wasn't that important, and quite frankly he's only important to the film series because Wrath of Khan was one of the better films (and far better received than the 1st movie).




   3166. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 27, 2014 at 06:28 PM (#4678021)
There is no way that any competent military would give a starship to such a hothead.


Of course not, but that reminds me of an interview I saw with Wil Wheaton (Wesley Crusher)- he met Shatner, they were introduced- and the ONLY thing Shatner said to him was, "Kirk wouldn't have allowed children on the Bridge"

The original Kirk went to the Academy, started out as an Ensign and apparently worked his way up over a period of years without skipping 4-5 ranks at once. The reboot Kirk is kind of like Luke Skywalker's evil twin.



   3167. Lassus Posted: March 27, 2014 at 07:17 PM (#4678040)
You don't know any Trek fans, then.

I know Star Trek fans and nerd rage. I trust my bona fides in this matter. And if you want to talk taste, well, there's always this:

Iron Man 2 was at least as good, perhaps better than Iron Man 1.


But the movie version of Rogue is so far from the comic book Rogue that it would feel really weird.

Yep. Sorry to hear about TWOP, Monty. I see they are handling it in the worst ####### way possible, too.


The reboot Kirk is kind of like Luke Skywalker's evil twin.

I agree with this. The new Kirk is pretty crap. And all the book Kirks are one thousand trillion times better than Shatner's crap.
   3168. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 28, 2014 at 06:09 AM (#4678081)
Batman Begins didn't cadge off the Tim Burton (and others) movies, rather its main villain was an important one in the comics- but ignored in both the prior film and TV series.

And the firs Star Trek reboot went with Nero as villain. Then the second Batman movie went straight to Joker, because there is no way you can make a Batman reboot, and not address him. This example really doesn't help your point.
   3169. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 28, 2014 at 07:37 AM (#4678089)
And the firs Star Trek reboot went with Nero as villain. Then the second Batman movie went straight to Joker, because there is no way you can make a Batman reboot, and not address him. This example really doesn't help your point.


Apples and Oranges. I don't think the relationship between Batman & Joker is very analogous to that between Kirk and Khan.

And in any event I am not against Khan per se in the reboot, but how they did it was terrible. Derivative. Cheap.
   3170. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 28, 2014 at 07:52 AM (#4678093)
Good and bad news for everyone on the health care front:

Deadline Near, Health Signups Show Disparity

WASHINGTON — The online insurance marketplace in Oregon is such a technological mess that residents have been signing up for health coverage by hand. In Texas, political opposition to President Obama’s health law is so strong that some residents believe, erroneously, that the program is banned in their state.

But in Connecticut, a smoothly functioning website, run by competent managers, has successfully enrolled so many patients that officials are offering to sell their expertise to states like Maryland, which is struggling to sign people up for coverage.

The disparities reveal a stark truth about the Affordable Care Act: With the first open enrollment period set to end Monday, six months after its troubled online exchanges opened for business, the program widely known as Obamacare looks less like a sweeping federal overhaul than a collection of individual ventures playing out unevenly, state to state, in the laboratories of democracy....

“The whole narrative about Obamacare — ‘Will they get to six million? What is the percentage of young adults going to be?’ — has almost nothing to do with whether the law is working or not, whether the premiums are affordable or not, whether people think they are getting a good deal or not,” said Drew Altman, president of the Kaiser Family Foundation, whose analysts are closely tracking the measure.

“It’s almost like trying to predict the local weather from national averages,” Mr. Altman said. “This is really now a state and local game, not a national one.”

Indeed, a review of state-by-state enrollment data and other research, as well as interviews with patients, advocates, health policy analysts, elected officials, supporters and critics of the Affordable Care Act, suggest that, for consumers at least, the state of health care under the national law depends almost entirely on where a person lives....

The Supreme Court’s 2012 decision to allow states to opt out of Medicaid expansion, and the decision by roughly three dozen states not to establish their own exchanges, have created cross-border disparities in coverage. Technical troubles with the federal HealthCare.gov website have depressed signups in many states that rely on it. The political climate in some states also has helped determine whether people enroll.

Missouri and Texas, where opposition to the law is strong, are among states that have enacted tough restrictions on who can serve as “navigators,” or “certified assistance counselors” to guide consumers through the enrollment process. That has frustrated Mona Walls, who runs a small team of enrollment counselors in rural southeastern Missouri.

Self-employed people in her area — truck drivers and cosmetologists, for instance — seem eager to sign up, Ms. Walls said, but “negative press” and problems with the federal website have discouraged many consumers. At the small town educational sessions she runs, she often encounters people whose conservative political philosophy makes them uncomfortable about accepting federal subsidies to buy private coverage.

“When we speak about the law, we are very upfront that we are not there to engage in a political debate,” Ms. Walls said, though she added, “Once they see the prices and how much it does save them, it does a lot to change their attitude.”

In addition, an estimated 4.8 million low-income Americans have little hope of gaining any coverage under the law because their states have decided not to expand Medicaid, the government-run insurance program for the poor. They fall into what experts call “the gap,” earning too much to qualify for traditional Medicaid, but too little to get tax credits that would make coverage affordable....

In the future, one big test of how well the law is working will be the actions of insurance companies, which must now sift through their records, analyze their risk pools and determine what products they will sell, and at what prices, during the next open enrollment period, beginning in November. One of the biggest insurers, WellPoint, recently raised its earnings forecast — a sign that the company is bullish on the exchanges, which are “tracking our general expectations,” its chief executive, Joseph R. Swedish, said in an interview.

Insurers say they are just beginning to get a handle on the health of people enrolling in the exchanges, in part by starting to analyze early prescription data and to see if any of the people signing up had been previous customers. Some insurers, like Florida Blue, report seeing a flurry of signups as the March deadline looms. In Philadelphia, the chief executive of Independence Blue Cross said the mix of people under 35 seems to be increasing.

But companies say it is too early to tell whether the marketplaces will be successful. As Andy Williams, director of consumer marketing at Blue Cross of Nebraska, said, “This is really a two- to three-year process for the dust to settle.”


   3171. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 28, 2014 at 09:35 AM (#4678121)
Another Big Surprise:

Project to Improve Poor Children’s Intellect Led to Better Health, Data Shows

In 1972, researchers in North Carolina started following two groups of babies from poor families. In the first group, the children were given full-time day care up to age 5 that included most of their daily meals, talking, games and other stimulating activities. The other group, aside from baby formula, got nothing. The scientists were testing whether the special treatment would lead to better cognitive abilities in the long run.

Forty-two years later, the researchers found something that they had not expected to see: The group that got care was far healthier, with sharply lower rates of high blood pressure and obesity, and higher levels of so-called good cholesterol.

The study, which was published in the journal Science on Thursday, is part of a growing body of scientific evidence that hardship in early childhood has lifelong health implications. But it goes further than outlining the problem, offering evidence that a particular policy might prevent it.

“This tells us that adversity matters and it does affect adult health,” said James Heckman, a professor of economics at the University of Chicago who led the data analysis. “But it also shows us that we can do something about it, that poverty is not just a hopeless condition.”

The findings come amid a political push by the Obama administration for government-funded preschool for 4-year-olds. But a growing number of experts, Professor Heckman among them, say they believe that more effective public programs would start far earlier — in infancy, for example, because that is when many of the skills needed to take control of one’s life and become a successful adult are acquired....

Frances Campbell, a senior scientist at the Frank Porter Graham Child Development Institute at the University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill, who started work on the project in the 1970s, said of the health improvements, “I would not say to you that we were expecting to see much of a difference at all.”

But that is precisely what researchers found. Men in the treatment group, now mostly in their mid-30s, were less likely to develop hypertension than those in the control group. They also had significantly higher levels of so-called good cholesterol, and none had developed metabolic syndrome, the medical term for a group of risk factors that together substantially raise the chances for heart disease, diabetes and stroke. In contrast, a quarter of the men in the control group had the syndrome.

“These are real biological markers, blood tests, physical results,” Dr. Campbell said. “That’s what makes this story so exciting.”

As for women, those in the treated group were less likely to develop pre-hypertension or abdominal obesity, which tends to be a risk factor for heart problems. They also had healthier habits. They were significantly less likely to have started drinking before age 17, and more likely to be physically active and eat nutritious food, than the women in the control group.

Some have criticized the Abecedarian study as not persuasive because it is too small and too old, Professor Heckman said. He argued that results were striking even with its small size, and the fact that it was randomized and that the participants have been followed for decades shows the results are real and long-lasting.

Addressing criticism that the program would be too expensive to apply more broadly, Professor Heckman said the cost of the Abecedarian project was about $16,000 per child per year in 2010 dollars. His research group is now analyzing how that might compare to the costs of medical care for the poorer health outcomes that tend to be typical for low-income Americans.

“This is tangible, it is real,” Professor Heckman said. “It’s not just a declaration from someone saying, ‘I’m smart and I think this is true.’ ”
   3172. DJS and the Infinite Sadness Posted: March 28, 2014 at 11:24 AM (#4678196)
Woo, can actually get into BTF on Chrome again.

I personally prefer the darker post-Roddenberry Trek ethos (though not a fan of the movies). Something like DS9's In the Pale Moonlight allowed storytelling and hard choices for characters, that you just couldn't do under Roddenberry's rigid ideals. Roddenberry and Rand had very different political outlooks but they shared the traits of being "big idea" people that quite frankly were #### storytellers that could only tell stories with cardboard characters.
   3173. zonk Posted: March 28, 2014 at 11:33 AM (#4678205)
Woo, can actually get into BTF on Chrome again.


It's been Firefox that keeps hanging for me... It's one those @!#!@#!$!@!#!@$$@@ Flash adservers that keeps gumming up the works and spiking CPU - and apparently, it's found a way around my Flash blocker. I don't use ad blockers, but I do block the hideous nightmare that is Flash. I think if I could eliminate just one company, it might very well be ####### Abode.
   3174. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 28, 2014 at 11:35 AM (#4678210)
Download AdBlock. Pay the AdBlock developer a couple of bucks in return. It really isn't that hard, and it makes the internets so much more functional.
   3175. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 28, 2014 at 11:37 AM (#4678212)
I don't think the relationship between Batman & Joker is very analogous to that between Kirk and Khan.


The hero and his biggest, most famous nemesis. Ignoring Khan would be like rebooting into the TNG timeline and ignoring the Borg.
   3176. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 28, 2014 at 11:42 AM (#4678214)

The hero and his biggest, most famous nemesis.


Naw. The Klingons are #1. The Romulans, #2. Harcourt Fenton Mudd, #3.
   3177. Lassus Posted: March 28, 2014 at 11:43 AM (#4678215)
Download AdBlock. Pay the AdBlock developer a couple of bucks in return. It really isn't that hard, and it makes the internets so much more functional.

I understand this, but I'm damned curious what has happened in the past two weeks that has made this necessary for Firefox, Chrome, and Opera for this website only and not a single other that I go to.
   3178. zonk Posted: March 28, 2014 at 11:43 AM (#4678216)
Download AdBlock. Pay the AdBlock developer a couple of bucks in return. It really isn't that hard, and it makes the internets so much more functional.


Ads don't bother me -- it's just Flash-based ads where bad developers manage to do things in the most inefficient way possible, putting out loud, annoying and resource intensive crap.... and various exploiters use the never-ending holes in Abode's crapware. I mean, I think Flash for all the porn it's given me over the years -- but I want flash to die, die painfully, and die soon. It's even worse with HTML5 and the fact you can serve it up without discreet frames...
   3179. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 28, 2014 at 11:45 AM (#4678218)
Naw. The Klingons are #1. The Romulans, #2. Harcourt Fenton Mudd, #3.


It will be interesting to see what they do with the Klingons in 3 and beyond now that Putin has re-scaried up Russia.
   3180. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 28, 2014 at 11:47 AM (#4678221)
I understand this, but I'm damned curious what has happened in the past two weeks that has made this necessary for Firefox, Chrome, and Opera for this website only and not a single other that I go to.


I don't know, but I strongly believe it's one of the ad feeds that's filling Jimmy's coffers with untold millions that's the problem. I had very similar problems to you and Mike E. a month ago. Fought with it a while, finally updated AdBlock and killed all of the half naked "male gamers only" ad crap, all of the impossible to find and kill talking video ads, and the site is back to normal functioning for me.
   3181. Randy Jones Posted: March 28, 2014 at 11:52 AM (#4678227)
So, regarding ads here. I don't get any ads on this site except the little BBTF partner thing in the upper right corner and the little text ad box on the very bottom of the page. I also don't have any ad blockers installed. I do use the donottrackme extension, but that shouldn't block ads.
   3182. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: March 28, 2014 at 11:54 AM (#4678229)
I understand this, but I'm damned curious what has happened in the past two weeks that has made this necessary for Firefox, Chrome, and Opera for this website only and not a single other that I go to.


I don't know, but I strongly believe it's one of the ad feeds that's filling Jimmy's coffers with untold millions that's the problem.

BTF is the ONLY site that crashes my new computer's browser on a regular basis, but it only does it on Firefox. BTF works fine on Chrome, and all the other sites work normally on all the browsers. I find that it sometimes helps on Firefox to let a new page "sit" for a few seconds before scrolling down to the latest comment, but other than that I just figure that this is something that would cost BTF too much money to fix to be worth the trouble.
   3183. CrosbyBird Posted: March 28, 2014 at 11:55 AM (#4678231)
The biggest problem was that they completely screwed up the characters. Kirk in the first Abrams movie is completely incompetent and insubordinate. He makes not a single useful decision in the entire movie. There is no way that any competent military would give a starship to such a hothead.

While I generally agree with you about the insubordination, that's not entirely fair. Most of his command decisions are reasonable and lead to the best possible result under the circumstances.

Also bear in mind that the Federation took pretty substantial losses over the course of the movie that make Kirk's promotion at the end less outrageous. This universe is probably going to have a much hotter war with the Klingons and Romulans without Vulcan.
   3184. CrosbyBird Posted: March 28, 2014 at 12:01 PM (#4678234)
BTF is the ONLY site that crashes my new computer's browser on a regular basis, but it only does it on Firefox.

I don't have that problem specifically with this site. Firefox pretty much always grinds to a halt if I leave it open more than a day or two, no matter what sites I have open.

The problem I do have is "this URL has disallowed characters" every time I log in to BTF, because it adds some code to the URL. Is that just me?
   3185. BDC Posted: March 28, 2014 at 12:04 PM (#4678237)
I don't have too many problems reading BBTF in Safari, but lately it's started opening the sexy adult fantasy game sites without warning. Perhaps I should just give up and start slayething a troll or two and win the curvaceous maiden.
   3186. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 28, 2014 at 12:13 PM (#4678248)
The problem I do have is "this URL has disallowed characters" every time I log in to BTF, because it adds some code to the URL. Is that just me?


Depends on which page I log in from. From the home page, I get that error. Logging in from the link below the comment box beneath a given discussion thread page, it works as expected.
   3187. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 28, 2014 at 12:18 PM (#4678250)
Also bear in mind that the Federation took pretty substantial losses over the course of the movie that make Kirk's promotion at the end less outrageous. This universe is probably going to have a much hotter war with the Klingons and Romulans without Vulcan.


Yeah. Nero destroyed a good portion of the Federation Navy in the first movie, which drove somewhat the black ops development of the big kill ship in the second.

I understand why people deeply involved in the emotional arc of the original universe are less than thrilled with the new universe, but the options for the franchise were either 1) remake the original universe with new actors (which fans would have hated more) or 2) die. The ST universe as originally scripted was nearing heat death. I particularly like that in the reboots the entire universe is thrown into chaos by the original ST's most favored deus ex machina; time travel. It was nice, in the first reboot, to see one of those "let's just send them back in time" maneuvers have dire consequences.
   3188. A Fatty Cow That Need Two Seats Posted: March 28, 2014 at 12:25 PM (#4678254)
Good to see it's not just me having BF crash my browser several times a day, beginning in the last month or so. Chrome has been fine at home, but it regularly crashes IE at work. Which, I know...poor me. But it's the only browser I got and no adblock here.
   3189. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 28, 2014 at 01:29 PM (#4678287)
I understand why people deeply involved in the emotional arc of the original universe are less than thrilled with the new universe, but the options for the franchise were


It is not the mood change that bothers me. It is not the reboot. It is that everything is worse in ST2.0. Every character is worse, makes worse decisions, is more of a jerk, is an alcoholic, and so on. Every government is worse, darker, more duplicitous. And even that was almost tolerable, but then they felt the need, the laziness to completely steal from the original, the tried to strip mine Wrath of Khan. It was not an homage, did not use the source, no it was a lazy and manipulative maneuver. "We want to change everything we want, but the stuff you remember and loved, that we want to use when we want it. But only the stuff we want, everything else we get to change with zero accountability."

And even all of that, as annoying as fanboy me would find it, all of that would still not be a total vortex of suck, except the second movie wasn't even very good. Huge plot holes, poorly developed characters, terrible science and so on. It had OK effects, a few nice set pieces, some good acting, excellent eye candy, and was paced well. Oh goody. It was only matched for franchise crap with the horrible Man of Steel movie last year.

Regarding Khan as Joker. Superheroes are largely defined by their origin story and the villains. It is how the genre works. Science Fiction is not. It is defined by many things, depending on the franchise. Star Trek was not defined by it's villains. It had an ethos, a philosophy and view on the future, combined with the classic trope of using Science Fiction to comment of the social issues of the day.

The reboot did not have to use Khan (especially in such a terrible way, and terrible casting by the way, despite the fact I love the actor), and it completely abandoned what did define ST IMO.
   3190. zonk Posted: March 28, 2014 at 01:39 PM (#4678290)
It is not the mood change that bothers me. It is not the reboot. It is that everything is worse in ST2.0. Every character is worse, makes worse decisions, is more of a jerk, is an alcoholic, and so on. Every government is worse, darker, more duplicitous. And even that was almost tolerable, but then they felt the need, the laziness to completely steal from the original, the tried to strip mine Wrath of Khan. It was not an homage, did not use the source, no it was a lazy and manipulative maneuver. "We want to change everything we want, but the stuff you remember and loved, that we want to use when we want it. But only the stuff we want, everything else we get to change with zero accountability."


Bingo.

The BSG reboot - even in context - was obviously superior to the mostly cheesy (but occasionally decent) original...

The BSG reboot was also much darker than the original and in virtually every way, the characters were 'worse' - at least, as in Adama wasn't always the paragon of virtue (I suppose Baltar was more redeemable in the reboot).

Yet - despite actually being superior, despite also being darker, and despite borrowing heavily from the original, the BSG reboot was still respectful of the source... ST2.0 is basically treating the original like a ne'er do well grandson treats an addled grandparent -- stopping by just to steal the monthly Social Security check.
   3191. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 28, 2014 at 01:45 PM (#4678295)
Regarding Khan as Joker. Superheroes are largely defined by their origin story and the villains. It is how the genre works. Science Fiction is not. It is defined by many things, depending on the franchise. Star Trek was not defined by it's villains. It had an ethos, a philosophy and view on the future, combined with the classic trope of using Science Fiction to comment of the social issues of the day


First, just to be clear, the Joker has nothing to do with Batman's creation myth. But that may not have been your point, so whatever.

For ST to continue to "comment on the social issues of the day" a writer has to wreak havoc on its "ethos, philosophy and view of the future." That's the entire point. The utopian wishcasting of Roddenberry's original, and even the "we're from the space UN and we're here to make it all better" vision of TNG, is essentially archaic when it comes to commenting on the modern world and our foreseeable futures.
   3192. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 28, 2014 at 01:50 PM (#4678296)
Our greatest ally apparently refuses to condemn Russia for Crimea.
   3193. Manny Coon Posted: March 28, 2014 at 01:50 PM (#4678298)
It is not the mood change that bothers me. It is not the reboot. It is that everything is worse in ST2.0. Every character is worse, makes worse decisions, is more of a jerk, is an alcoholic, and so on. Every government is worse, darker, more duplicitous. And even that was almost tolerable, but then they felt the need, the laziness to completely steal from the original, the tried to strip mine Wrath of Khan. It was not an homage, did not use the source, no it was a lazy and manipulative maneuver. "We want to change everything we want, but the stuff you remember and loved, that we want to use when we want it. But only the stuff we want, everything else we get to change with zero accountability."

And even all of that, as annoying as fanboy me would find it, all of that would still not be a total vortex of suck, except the second movie wasn't even very good. Huge plot holes, poorly developed characters, terrible science and so on. It had OK effects, a few nice set pieces, some good acting, excellent eye candy, and was paced well. Oh goody.


A different medium but this reminds me a lot of something an old Fallout/Fallout 2 fan might say about Fallout 3.
   3194. zenbitz Posted: March 28, 2014 at 01:58 PM (#4678305)
Dredd was a better comic book movie than any of that Marvel corn.


To be fair - the FIRST Judge Dredd (with Stallone) movie was an abomination. I guess it was better than Elektra though.
   3195. Randy Jones Posted: March 28, 2014 at 02:07 PM (#4678310)
It is not the mood change that bothers me. It is not the reboot. It is that everything is worse in ST2.0. Every character is worse, makes worse decisions, is more of a jerk, is an alcoholic, and so on. Every government is worse, darker, more duplicitous. And even that was almost tolerable, but then they felt the need, the laziness to completely steal from the original, the tried to strip mine Wrath of Khan. It was not an homage, did not use the source, no it was a lazy and manipulative maneuver. "We want to change everything we want, but the stuff you remember and loved, that we want to use when we want it. But only the stuff we want, everything else we get to change with zero accountability."

And even all of that, as annoying as fanboy me would find it, all of that would still not be a total vortex of suck, except the second movie wasn't even very good. Huge plot holes, poorly developed characters, terrible science and so on. It had OK effects, a few nice set pieces, some good acting, excellent eye candy, and was paced well. Oh goody. It was only matched for franchise crap with the horrible Man of Steel movie last year.

Regarding Khan as Joker. Superheroes are largely defined by their origin story and the villains. It is how the genre works. Science Fiction is not. It is defined by many things, depending on the franchise. Star Trek was not defined by it's villains. It had an ethos, a philosophy and view on the future, combined with the classic trope of using Science Fiction to comment of the social issues of the day.

The reboot did not have to use Khan (especially in such a terrible way, and terrible casting by the way, despite the fact I love the actor), and it completely abandoned what did define ST IMO.

Bitter Mouse, read this
   3196. Bitter Mouse Posted: March 28, 2014 at 02:19 PM (#4678316)
First, just to be clear, the Joker has nothing to do with Batman's creation myth. But that may not have been your point, so whatever.


I was describing what defines supers, and the two things that define a super is their origin and their villains. This is not so with Science Fiction.

For ST to continue to "comment on the social issues of the day" a writer has to wreak havoc on its "ethos, philosophy and view of the future."


OK and what social issue did "Into Darkness" comment on, was there anything there but a really tired 9/11 take? Any social issue at all? Space Seed (and Wrath) had some comments on Eugenics and what it meant to be a transhuman (essentially). The new movies have been extreme action, with great pacing and nothing interesting to say.

Bitter Mouse, read this


Yes. I read this before and agreed with it then. I admit it, I adore competence porn. I want someone, somewhere in a story to be actually good at their job, especially if they are supposed to be the best of the best (which is what basically all of Starfleet is, and Enterprise was the best of Starfleet). I wouldn't trust the new crew of the Enterprise, or really anyone in Starfleet, to go to the store to get milk, to say anything about actually protecting my planet.
   3197. Lassus Posted: March 28, 2014 at 02:42 PM (#4678330)
I wouldn't trust the new crew of the Enterprise, or really anyone in Starfleet, to go to the store to get milk, to say anything about actually protecting my planet.

Hey now. That new Chekhov seemed pretty on top of it.
   3198. madvillain Posted: March 28, 2014 at 03:00 PM (#4678347)
Ads don't bother me -- it's just Flash-based ads where bad developers manage to do things in the most inefficient way possible, putting out loud, annoying and resource intensive crap.... and various exploiters use the never-ending holes in Abode's crapware. I mean, I think Flash for all the porn it's given me over the years -- but I want flash to die, die painfully, and die soon. It's even worse with HTML5 and the fact you can serve it up without discreet frames...


Flash is garbage. It's unoptimized garbage. Once MLB.tv switched to Silverlight the experience improved tenfold. It's a flash ad on BTF that causes FF to completely lock at up times when visiting. It doesn't happen in Chrome as other have noted.

_____________________________

Is Chris Christie's report exonerates Chris Christie sorta like Bud Selig wins the inaugural Bud Selig award? I think it is.
   3199. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: March 28, 2014 at 03:04 PM (#4678353)
Dredd was a better comic book movie than any of that Marvel corn.

To be fair - the FIRST Judge Dredd (with Stallone) movie was an abomination.


Did I say "the first Judge Dredd with Stallone"? No. That movie never existed. In fact I have no idea what you're talking about.
   3200. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: March 28, 2014 at 03:05 PM (#4678356)
Ignoring Khan would be like rebooting into the TNG timeline and ignoring the Borg.



Khan was not remotely as important to the original series as the Borg were to TNG.
He was not remotely as important to the Star Trek Universe as the Joker was to Batman's

Saying stuff like this just how utterly unfamiliar some of you guys actually are with Star Trek.
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