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Thursday, February 28, 2013

[OTP - March] Scott wants money for spring training teams

While working at the Detroit Tigers’ spring facility in Lakeland, Gov. Rick Scott announced today he will ask the Florida Legislature to set aside $5 million a year for projects specifically aimed at improving the Major League Baseball training facilities in the state.

“It’s my job as governor to make sure Florida remains the number one destination for spring training and that is why we will work to provide $5 million annually to only be used for spring training facilities,” Scott said in a statement that was released while Scott was participating in one of his “work days” with the Tigers at Joker Marchant Stadium in Lakeland.

Tripon Posted: February 28, 2013 at 02:05 PM | 2909 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: baseball, florida, ot, politics, spring training

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   1401. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:13 PM (#4391603)
They were tried as juveniles. That's what I don't like.

Not really, as their names were plastered all over the national media. Civilized prosecutions of juveniles keep the offenders' names private.
   1402. Blastin Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:14 PM (#4391604)
Her poor judgement is irrelevant to their guilt; why should it be discussed?


I will cherish this ugly discussion as a moment when I 100% agreed with snapper.
   1403. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:14 PM (#4391605)
Actually, it doesn't do it "often" at all. Instead, it does it rarely, and generally in the face of publicity and an irrational mob.


Can't come up with a readable PDF for this Northwestern U. study (Google, I swear to god, decides every day that my previous password is no longer valid), for some damned reason, but supposedly the number it reports 200,000 a year.

Which seems rather "often" to me.
   1404. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:16 PM (#4391606)
I will cherish this ugly discussion as a moment when I 100% agreed with snapper.

Discussion and clarity of rhetoric are virtually always less ugly than euphemism and BS. This thread is no exception to that rule and is in fact an excellent example.
   1405. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:17 PM (#4391609)
OMG SMALL TOWN FOOTBALL! very nearly got this case swept under the rug with no prosecution at all.


Because accusations by Anonymous are absolutely the sort of things you want to hang your hat on in things like this.
   1406. spike Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:17 PM (#4391610)
I don't have a "favorite gender."

Forgive me then - I don't where I could have gotten that idea from...

Part of this is the strong push from the feminist left to drastically expand the definition of "rape" to include this as equivalent to, uh..., "traditional rape?" It's part of the "rape culture" movement, as far as I can tell.

It doesn't really hurt my feelings to acknowledge that the monkey is the monkey, and will behave as monkeys do.

Well speak for yourself then. I'll labor on under the delusion that if we actively teach boys how to do right by girls, we stand a much better chance of them actually doing so. I only have a daughter, but I am just dumb enough to believe I can have an active and positive impact on her behavior as she matures.
   1407. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:17 PM (#4391611)
Which seems rather "often" to me.

If so, it's a retreat to barbarism, which should come as no surprise. The nation's standards have slipped in so many areas it's hard to keep track of all of them.
   1408. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:19 PM (#4391614)
If so, it's a retreat to barbarism, which should come as no surprise. The nation's standards have slipped in so many areas it's hard to keep track of all of them.


Translation: "I was making stuff up to comport with my idea of reality. I actually have no idea of what's really going on with respect to facts & figures."
   1409. Lassus Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:20 PM (#4391616)
Tell young men not to rape women... seems pretty straightforward to me.

Yes, it worked like a charm here.
   1410. spike Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:20 PM (#4391617)
Because accusations by Anonymous are absolutely the sort of things you want to hang your hat on in things like this.

It's a sad freaking state of affairs when no one else in Steubenville seemed to be interested in justice besides them. Had the responsible adults of the town done right by the law and this girl, Anonymous wouldn't have had anything to reveal.
   1411. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:20 PM (#4391620)
Forgive me then - I don't where I could have gotten that idea from...


From the same place you get the idea that the Steubenville case was going to be "covered up" before Anonymous ran a marketing campaign there. You take thinly sourced, skimmed comments from here and there and glom them onto your preconcieved notions of what is going to be the case, and build out the monster you want to see.

Well speak for yourself then. I'll labor on under the delusion that if we actively teach boys how to do right by girls, we stand a much better chance of them actually doing so.


Better chance? Sure. But if you think you're going to train sex and sexually questionable actions out of adolescent primates, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the world.
   1412. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:21 PM (#4391621)
If the two boys had paraded a male friend around from party to party and fondled his genitals would they have been tried for rape?


I certainly hope so.

This guy got a two-year sentence last year for teabagging a man who'd passed out, so there's certainly precedent.
   1413. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:22 PM (#4391623)
It's a sad freaking state of affairs when no one else in Steubenville seemed to be interested in justice besides them. Had the responsible adults of the town done right by the law and this girl, Anonymous wouldn't have had anything to reveal.


Yes, we know that Anonymous was the only reason this case got prosecuted, because Anonymous has told us how they were the only lights of moral reasoning in a football mad town of rubes and hicks. We are so very lucky to have Anonymous to guard against the legal system of Ohio and the evils of men.
   1414. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:23 PM (#4391624)
This guy got a two-year sentence last year for teabagging a man who'd passed out, so there's certainly precedent.


Judging from the link, the charge was sexual battery (& then pleaded down from that, to obscenity), though, rather than rape.

I'm unclear whether SBB, Sam &/or Ray are conducting hunger strikes outside the jail in protest of the guy's incarceration therein. Perhaps they're rotating their vigils.
   1415. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:24 PM (#4391625)
I don't have a "favorite gender."


I'm willing to take your word for it, but between this and the whole renouncing paternity thing a couple weeks back, you are creating a certain impression on people in these threads.
   1416. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:24 PM (#4391626)
Yes, it worked like a charm here.


What would you do differently, Lassus? Shall we chemically castrate all male children as they enter the 9th grade?
   1417. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:25 PM (#4391627)
Judging from the link, the charge was sexual battery (& then pleaded down from that, to obscenity), though, rather than rape.

Interestingly, the judge punctuated her remarks at sentencing with, "You're an adult."
   1418. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:26 PM (#4391629)
I'm willing to take your word for it, but between this and the whole renouncing paternity thing a couple weeks back, you are creating a certain impression on people in these threads.


The fact that I'm more willing to embrace modernity and sexual freedom than "liberals" isn't my problem, per se. Anyone who has spent more than a half hour debating with me knows that my only real favoritism is toward unpopular positions that need to be aired.
   1419. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:27 PM (#4391630)
Interestingly, the judge punctuated her remarks at sentencing with, "You're an adult."


Try convincing any of your 17-year-old acquaintances to do the same thing, then see how it goes.
   1420. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:29 PM (#4391634)
The fact that I'm more willing to embrace modernity and sexual freedom than "liberals" isn't my problem, per se.

Light punishments for rape is part of sexual freedom now?
   1421. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:30 PM (#4391635)
I'm unclear whether SBB, Sam &/or Ray are conducting hunger strikes outside the jail in protest of the guy's incarceration therein. Perhaps they're rotating their vigils.


Considering the fact that I have repeatedly stated that the rape conviction of the two Ohio boys should stand, I'm a little unclear as to what your snark here is meant to imply.
   1422. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:32 PM (#4391638)
Light punishments for rape is part of sexual freedom now?


1. The fact that you think the sentencing was light doesn't mean it was light. It means the justice system isn't run by the Spanish Inquisition.

2. Actually, yes, part of sexual liberation is the fact that everyone, including women, are now far more responsible for their own sexual safety than previously. If we accept a society where sexuality is prevalent and on display, we must also accept a society where citizens must be cognizant of the multitudinous ways in which sexual signals can and do go wrong.
   1423. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:33 PM (#4391640)
Judging from the link, the charge was sexual battery (& then pleaded down from that, to obscenity), though, rather than rape.


True, but at the same time, there was no actual penetration in that case - he just set his junk on a guy's face. Thus, the lesser charge.
   1424. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:35 PM (#4391644)
True, but at the same time, there was no actual penetration in that case - he just set his junk on a guy's face. Thus, the lesser charge.


So if the young men in Ohio had simply teabagged the drunk girl, no rape?
   1425. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:35 PM (#4391645)
2. Actually, yes, part of sexual liberation is the fact that everyone, including women, are now far more responsible for their own sexual safety than previously. If we accept a society where sexuality is prevalent and on display, we must also accept a society where citizens must be cognizant of the multitudinous ways in which sexual signals can and do go wrong.

Gee, yet another reason why sexual liberation is a horrible idea.
   1426. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:38 PM (#4391646)
Gee, yet another reason why sexual liberation is a horrible idea.


We all know your predilection for more medieval mores, snap.
   1427. spike Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:39 PM (#4391648)
thinly sourced

By the Sheriff's own admission, the police had the videotape in question for months before he viewed it himself on Jan 2. The crime happened in August and was reported to the police on the 15th.

The coach was sent messages regarding the matter by the accused about the incident at the time of the occurrence. "Two players who testified at a hearing in October were not suspended until eight games into a 10-game regular season," reports the Plain-Dealer, which notes that Saccoccia has maintained that he did not discuss the incident with his players. That runs contrary to the testimony of Evan Westlake, a football player and eyewitness of one of the attacks, who said during last week's trial that he discussed the incident with Saccoccia.

According to testimony from last week's trial, Mays had sent a text message to one his friends, in which he confirmed that he had told Saccoccia about the incident. Mays, the 17-year-old Big Red quarterback, sent this text:

"I got Reno. He took care of it and sh-- ain't gonna happen, even if they did take it to court.

Rape Charges Divide FootballTown

But even so, few people have gone to authorities with information, in spite of pleas from Police Chief William McCafferty. "That night [of the incident], not one person stepped up and said something. Whatever happened, not one person stepped in to stop it," he said. After the rape was reported, McCafferty went on television urging parents and kids to come forward if they were witnesses or had received photos or video.

Again, mostly silence. Only one parent called and one other approached the chief at a football game.

McCafferty said what bothers him most about the case is the silence — both on the night of the incident and now.




But if you think you're going to train sex and sexually questionable actions out of adolescent primates, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the world.

So really, we'd better not do anything at all.
   1428. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:40 PM (#4391650)
The fact that I'm more willing to embrace modernity and sexual freedom than "liberals" isn't my problem, per se. Anyone who has spent more than a half hour debating with me knows that my only real favoritism is toward unpopular positions that need to be aired.


You're entitled to say and think what you want, but since you seemed surprised that someone would view you as a "men's rights" type, I figured you'd want to know.
   1429. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:43 PM (#4391651)
So if the young men in Ohio had simply teabagged the drunk girl, no rape?

Yes, that would have been "merely" sexual assault. Rape requires penetration, not sure what is so difficult to understand about that distinction.
   1430. Lassus Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:45 PM (#4391655)
What would you do differently, Lassus? Shall we chemically castrate all male children as they enter the 9th grade?

No, just the ones who talk to you prior about how monkeys will be monkeys and that this kind of equality is what the girls wanted so it's what they have to live with now.
   1431. Blastin Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:45 PM (#4391657)
Gee, yet another reason why sexual liberation is a horrible idea.


Aww, my brief shining moment of agreement with snapper is over. It was nice, like that episode of the Office where Dwight has a concussion.

(Either of us could be the concussed one, no insult intended.)
   1432. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:46 PM (#4391659)

Yes, that would have been "merely" sexual assault. Rape requires penetration, not sure what is so difficult to understand about that distinction.


Yep. Sexual assault, sexual battery ... different jurisdictions define nonconsensual sexual contact differently, I gather.
   1433. Kurt Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:47 PM (#4391660)
But if you think you're going to train sex and sexually questionable actions out of adolescent primates, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the world.
-------
So really, we'd better not do anything at all.


Sam and Ray's point looks to me like the exact opposite of not doing anything at all. Because adolescent males are who they are, you need, in addition to giving males the massage that this behavior is not acceptable, to also communicate to adolescent girls that it's a very very bad idea to get blackout drunk at parties.
   1434. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:48 PM (#4391661)
So if the young men in Ohio had simply teabagged the drunk girl, no rape?


Probably not. I'm not a lawyer, but under the laws of Ohio, that sounds a lot more like sexual imposition, a misdemeanor. In Ohio, rape requires "sexual conduct", which the criminal code defines as "vaginal intercourse between a male and female; anal intercourse, fellatio, and cunnilingus between persons regardless of sex; and, without privilege to do so, the insertion, however slight, of any part of the body or any instrument, apparatus, or other object into the vaginal or anal opening of another. Penetration, however slight, is sufficient to complete vaginal or anal intercourse."

In the Steubenville case, the police were able to demonstrate that digital penetration occurred, so that crosses the threshold for rape.
   1435. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:49 PM (#4391662)
True, but at the same time, there was no actual penetration in that case - he just set his junk on a guy's face. Thus, the lesser charge.


Oh, I know. Just wanted to note that this wasn't a rape case per se, in light of the question that prompted the link --

If the two boys had paraded a male friend around from party to party and fondled his genitals would they have been tried for rape?



   1436. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:50 PM (#4391663)
People might still refer to someone who committed sexual imposition upon another as a rapist, of course, but that's the difference between legal terminology and common usage.
   1437. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:52 PM (#4391665)
Considering the fact that I have repeatedly stated that the rape conviction of the two Ohio boys should stand, I'm a little unclear as to what your snark here is meant to imply.


I assume you'd be upset that the guy doing jail time didn't get some sort of special consideration because his victim was passed out, & thus himself somehow culpable. Sort of like a drunk guy lying in a crosswalk & getting hit by a car.

(Now, if we want to give him special consideration because the victim was an LSU fan ... that idea, I'll certainly listen to.)
   1438. spike Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:52 PM (#4391666)
in addition to giving males the massage that this behavior is not acceptable, to also communicate to adolescent girls that it's a very very bad idea to get blackout drunk at parties.

No one questions this, but it seems like very little is done to combat the "boys will be boys" defense to the same degree that "it's a very very bad idea" becomes "you were asking for it".
   1439. Ron J2 Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:55 PM (#4391668)
#1350 You know you seem to be channeling McCoy at his most cryptic in this thread Rickey!

I generally have no trouble understanding your underlying position but this time I just don't get it.

I think what you're laying the grounds for "young and stupid != monster" and/or "young + lots of booze means a serious chance of seriously bad judgement" and/or "there is nothing in their actions -- not attempting to minimize how awful their behavior was -- marks them as irredeemable"
   1440. Kurt Posted: March 19, 2013 at 03:58 PM (#4391670)
No one questions this, but it seems like very little is done to combat the "boys will be boys" defense to the same degree that "it's a very very bad idea" becomes "you were asking for it".

Maybe I've misread the thread, but I haven't seen a "boys will be boys" defense. It's an indictment. Telling girls "there are bad people out there" is meant to affirm and highlight the badness of those people, not mitigate or excuse it.
   1441. spike Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4391673)
Maybe I've misread the thread, but I haven't seen a "boys will be boys" defense.

read the Cleveland.com link. Getting material witnesses to come forward was the biggest problem to overcome before successfully getting to trial. And in my initial link that kicked this whole mess off, two local girls were arrested today for threatening the life of the victim, and a third male is being investigated for making threats.
   1442. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:05 PM (#4391674)
By the Sheriff's own admission, the police had the videotape in question for months before he viewed it himself on Jan 2.


So? Was the sheriff leading the investigation? Is he expected to view every video from every investigation going on in his jurisdiction? Did he not assign the investigation out? If he did, did he not assign it to a qualified detective? Or are you just assuming that he didn't view tape because of "football crazy town" rather than asking yourself what the standard process would have been in such a case?

The coach was sent messages regarding the matter by the accused about the incident at the time of the occurrence. "Two players who testified at a hearing in October were not suspended until eight games into a 10-game regular season," reports the Plain-Dealer, which notes that Saccoccia has maintained that he did not discuss the incident with his players.


And? Do we expect football coaches to suspend their players prior to any actual charges being filed? Are they supposed to take preemptive action against their players because of something that might be investigated at some undetermined future date?

That runs contrary to the testimony of Evan Westlake, a football player and eyewitness of one of the attacks, who said during last week's trial that he discussed the incident with Saccoccia.


Contradictory testimony from witnesses. Someone stop the presses.

According to testimony from last week's trial, Mays had sent a text message to one his friends, in which he confirmed that he had told Saccoccia about the incident. Mays, the 17-year-old Big Red quarterback, sent this text:

"I got Reno. He took care of it and sh-- ain't gonna happen, even if they did take it to court.


Well, if the quarterback was talking #### about how it was all under control without knowing anything of merit, it must have been a deep, county wide conspiracy of silence, I'm sure. After all, testosterone drenched alpha male teen boys don't talk #### to make themselves look like they're in charge. That never happens.

But even so, few people have gone to authorities with information, in spite of pleas from Police Chief William McCafferty. "That night [of the incident], not one person stepped up and said something. Whatever happened, not one person stepped in to stop it," he said. After the rape was reported, McCafferty went on television urging parents and kids to come forward if they were witnesses or had received photos or video.

Again, mostly silence. Only one parent called and one other approached the chief at a football game.


Huh. A bunch of teenagers who were involved in drunken debauchery that went terribly wrong and ended in rape charges went silent and didn't talk or act out against peer pressure when it was happening. Clearly, this must be a Watergate level cover up mandated from the top rungs of the small town's social structures...

But if you think you're going to train sex and sexually questionable actions out of adolescent primates, you're going to be sorely disappointed with the world.


So really, we'd better not do anything at all.


Wherein we have now defined "were prosecuted and convicted of felonious rape" to "not do anything at all."
   1443. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:06 PM (#4391675)
You're entitled to say and think what you want, but since you seemed surprised that someone would view you as a "men's rights" type, I figured you'd want to know.


Do men not have rights, now?
   1444. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:07 PM (#4391677)
No, just the ones who talk to you prior about how monkeys will be monkeys and that this kind of equality is what the girls wanted so it's what they have to live with now.


Ah, I see. We'll only sterilize the ones who disagree with you. That way, we can ensure you get preference in the breeding program going forward.
   1445. Kurt Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:08 PM (#4391678)
read the Cleveland.com link. Getting material witnesses to come forward was the biggest problem to overcome before successfully getting to trial.

I meant that I haven't seen a "boys will be boys" defense from Sam or Ray.
   1446. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:14 PM (#4391682)
Sam and Ray's point looks to me like the exact opposite of not doing anything at all. Because adolescent males are who they are, you need, in addition to giving males the massage that this behavior is not acceptable, to also communicate to adolescent girls that it's a very very bad idea to get blackout drunk at parties.


The problem here is that the mere statement of the latter part of this, the idea that we need to communicate to adolescent girls that they need to be proactive about their own sexual safety, is being painted as tacit support of the "culture of rape" that apparently pervades our entire society. It's now verboten to say "look, you might not want to walk that street alone, because it's not very safe." By doing so, you're apparently indicating that it's okay to rape people on that street. It's an idiotic assumption, but one that is currently en vogue in liberal circles (to my experience.)
   1447. Lassus Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:14 PM (#4391683)
So? Was the sheriff leading the investigation? Is he expected to view every video from every investigation going on in his jurisdiction?

Steubenville has a population of 18,000. I'm guessing a videotape from a local high school rape didn't exactly get buried under the 12-kilo coke bust and terrorist cell undercover operation files on the sherrif's desk.


It's now verboten to say "look, you might not want to walk that street alone, because it's not very safe."

You are currently describing existence in a reality other than our own.
   1448. spike Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:14 PM (#4391684)
Sam @1442 - I posted that stuff because of your claim that the reports of a coverup were "thinly sourced". Talk about moving the goal posts.

Here's some more of that thin sourcing

Steubenville High School football coach Reno Saccoccia not only knew that two of his players had sexually assaulted a teen-age girl during a booze-fueled night last August, he also tried to shield his athletes from prosecution, evidence presented during last week's trial of the two players suggests.
Saccoccia, who has won three state championships and has been inducted into the Ohio Coaches Hall of Fame, is just one of the Steubenville coaches, parents and students who could face criminal charges after a grand jury reviews evidence from the case next month.
Ohio Attorney General Mike DeWine announced on Sunday that he would convene a grand jury on April 15 to determine if criminal charges should be filed against coaches, parents and football players who failed to report shared photos of the assault on social media, failed to report the incident or attempted to cover it up.

“You cannot bring finality to this without the convening of a grand jury,” DeWine said on Sunday, shortly after a judge pronounced “Big Red” quarterback Trent Mays, 17, and receiver Ma'Lik Richmond guilty in the horrific rape of a girl from a nearby West Virginia community. "We have 16 witnesses who would not talk to us"
   1449. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:15 PM (#4391685)
Do we expect football coaches to suspend their players prior to any actual charges being filed?


Seems to happen fairly often even in the football-frenzied SEC, as I'm sure you know. Not saying that's a good or a bad thing, just that it's hardly unheard of.
   1450. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:16 PM (#4391687)
Steubenville has a population of 18,000. I'd imagine a videotape from a high school rape didn't exactly get buried behind the 12-kilo coke bust and terrorist cell undercover operation in priority.


Jefferson County's population is just under 70,000; I assume that's the sheriff's jurisdiction. Still, that doesn't strike me as particularly gigantic, unless the place is just crawling with crime.
   1451. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:18 PM (#4391692)
I generally have no trouble understanding your underlying position but this time I just don't get it.


Noted. If Ron is having trouble following me, I'm probably not being perfectly clear.

I think what you're laying the grounds for "young and stupid != monster" and/or "young + lots of booze means a serious chance of seriously bad judgement" and/or "there is nothing in their actions -- not attempting to minimize how awful their behavior was -- marks them as irredeemable"


Or maybe Ron's following me just fine. There's a couple of threads going on here, but the thread with snapper, from my point of view, is explicitly to counter his desire to seek vengeance for vengeance's sake. From what I've gathered from this thread, the two boys from Ohio were tried for rape, convicted, sentenced to a year or so in prison. I think this is probably sufficient to deter them from future crimes, while hopefully keeping them out of the cycle of permanent incarceration that long prison terms leads to.

The goal of this sentencing should be to rehabilitate two young men and teach them the "new rules" of what is and is not rape, not to assume they're morally deranged monsters who should be throw away and locked out of civil society for the rest of their lives.
   1452. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:18 PM (#4391693)
Steubenville High School football coach Reno Saccoccia not only knew that two of his players had sexually assaulted a teen-age girl during a booze-fueled night last August, he also tried to shield his athletes from prosecution, evidence presented during last week's trial of the two players suggests.


Well, yeah, but that's from the notorously liberal & feminist NY Daily News, isn't it?
   1453. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:21 PM (#4391695)
Saccoccia, who has won three state championships and has been inducted into the Ohio Coaches Hall of Fame, is just one of the Steubenville coaches, parents and students who could face criminal charges after a grand jury reviews evidence from the case next month.


Well, gosh spike. I guess I'm the kind of moral monster who is willing to wait to see what the grand jury finds before making sweeping generalizations about who should or should not be strung up from the scoreboards for all the town to see.
   1454. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:22 PM (#4391696)
Steubenville has a population of 18,000. I'm guessing a videotape from a local high school rape didn't exactly get buried under the 12-kilo coke bust and terrorist cell undercover operation files on the sherrif's desk.


You're absolutely correct. You are guessing.

EDIT: And more likely, in rural America, he would be inundated by meth labs, not coke busts. But hey, it's an 18K county. Clearly he had nothing on his docket but to hide the football team from harm. Because, well, that's what we guess happens in flyover counties.
   1455. Lassus Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:23 PM (#4391697)
It's now verboten to say "look, you might not want to walk that street alone, because it's not very safe."
You are currently describing existence in a reality other than our own.


I will cop, however, to being against telling a woman she shouldn't dress [UNDEFINED] in broad daylight because it sends a signal she's an easy lay and the monkeys will definitely harass and possibly rape her. Sign me up for considering that to be pathetic and altogether too forgiving and even defending people doing whatever the hell they want.


You're absolutely correct. You are guessing.

Dude, the "the sheriff can't pay attention to everything" bit is the weakest argument you've made all day.


The goal of this sentencing should be to rehabilitate two young men and teach them the "new rules" of what is and is not rape

Because, really, how the hell were they supposed to know? The rules are new! It's too confusing! They're just monkeys!
   1456. zonk Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:25 PM (#4391699)
Wouldn't this be where the Starlin Castro thread wanders in and screams...LEEEERRRRRROOOOOOYYYYY JENKINS!
   1457. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:29 PM (#4391702)
I will cop, however, to being against telling a woman she shouldn't dress [UNDEFINED] in broad daylight because it sends a signal she's an easy lay and the monkeys will definitely harass and possibly rape her.


Because it's okay to send sexual signals and expect no response in kind. Because, freedom and stuff. It's like you don't realize we're actually animals. ####### watered down fall-from-grace bullshit.

Dude, the "the sheriff can't pay attention to everything" bit is the weakest argument you've made all day.


Dude, you have NO IDEA what the standard operating procedure for those kinds of investigations are. You have NO IDEA what ought to have been done. You have NO IDEA if he didn't review evidence because it was considered improper by his offices to have a senior, elected official review facts of an ongoing investigation. You have NO ####### IDEA what was supposed to happen at all. All you have is an internet broadside that he didn't review the tape until later and your seething sense of righteous indignation that SOMETHING MUST BE TERRIBLE WRONG HERE!
   1458. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:30 PM (#4391703)
Because, really, how the hell were they supposed to know? The rules are new! It's too confusing! They're just monkeys


Are sexual mores in flux? Are the rules of what is and is not considered appropriate male to female "flirtation" not changing? Is adolescence not confusing? Are they not primates?
   1459. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4391704)
Are we not men?

   1460. spike Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:32 PM (#4391705)
Well, gosh spike. I guess I'm the kind of moral monster who is willing to wait to see what the grand jury finds before making sweeping generalizations about who should or should not be strung up from the scoreboards for all the town to see.

"Thinly sourced" was your characterization. Still sticking with that?
   1461. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:33 PM (#4391708)
Do men not have rights, now?


It's an expression commonly used by misogynists to try and paint themselves in a better light, just like racists will often describe themselves as being advocates of "white pride". There's nothing wrong with white people being proud of things, just like there's nothing wrong with men having rights, but it's a loaded term that you maybe don't want to use if you aren't planning to associate yourself with the others in that movement.
   1462. Lassus Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:34 PM (#4391709)
your seething sense of righteous indignation

In this thread? Seething? Righteous indignation? All caps? I'm not seeing it.


You have NO IDEA if he didn't review evidence because it was considered improper by his offices to have a senior, elected official review facts of an ongoing investigation.

You similarly have no idea that he didn't utterly #### up by not doing so. It seems likely to you that it was proper for him not to do so, however. I would disagree with that, and there we are.
   1463. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:34 PM (#4391710)
"Thinly sourced" was your characterization. Still sticking with that?


Yes. None of the links you provide give named sourcing and none of them provide anything much more than second hand rumor mongering.
   1464. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:34 PM (#4391711)
Are we not men?


We are Devo!
   1465. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4391714)
It's an expression commonly used by misogynists to try and paint themselves in a better light


Well, if users her can't read my contributions, inclusive of all of my general posting history on multiple subjects, and realize that's not the case, they're ####### idiots.
   1466. Sonic Youk Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:35 PM (#4391715)
My friends in highscool weren't necessarily animal house, but people definitely partied too hard once in a while. Passing out drunk is pretty stupid, but if someone had stripped one of my friends naked and finger blasted them in the middle of a party, I doubt it would have crossed my mind that they were in any way responsible. That is some serious wtf behavior.
   1467. Lassus Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:36 PM (#4391716)
Are sexual mores in flux?
Yes.

Are the rules of what is and is not considered appropriate male to female "flirtation" not changing?
Yes, but not in regards to fingerfucking an unconscious girl.


Is adolescence not confusing?
It's not so confusing that a nearly infinite number of boys and men across history have somehow managed to avoid this type of behavior.
   1468. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:37 PM (#4391717)
You similarly have no idea that he didn't utterly #### up by not doing so.


Let me state, for the umpteenth thousandth time, that I'm fine with the Ohio justice system working as it is designed in this case. I see little to no evidence that it has been undermined.
   1469. The Good Face Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:37 PM (#4391719)
I wonder what the correlation is between people who think we can stop rape by just teaching young men that it's unacceptable and people who think abstinence-only sex education is retarded.
   1470. spike Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:37 PM (#4391720)
Yes. None of the links you provide give named sourcing and none of them provide anything much more than second hand rumor mongering.

Governor Mike DeWine - "We have 16 witnesses who would not talk to us". Sounds like a firsthand account from a highly credible source to me.
   1471. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:39 PM (#4391723)
The goal of this sentencing should be to rehabilitate two young men and teach them the "new rules" of what is and is not rape...


Are sexual mores in flux? Are the rules of what is and is not considered appropriate male to female "flirtation" not changing?


How many years do you think you need to go back for it to be commonly considered acceptable to stick something in someone's vagina or anus without their knowledge or consent?
   1472. Lassus Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:41 PM (#4391724)
Let me state, for the umpteenth thousandth time, that I'm fine with the Ohio justice system working as it is designed in this case. I see little to no evidence that it has been undermined.

That much I understood awhile ago. Why you bristled at the idea the sheriff probably could have been more on top of this case a lot sooner is what confuses me.


I wonder what the correlation is between people who think we can stop rape by just teaching young men that it's unacceptable...

And your more brilliant plan would be?
   1473. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:41 PM (#4391725)
Yes, but not in regards to fingerfucking an unconscious girl.


Tell that to a 16 year old who's only training in sexual relationships is CollegeFuckFest videos. Oh, I'm sorry? Were you thinking times were similar to our coming of age parties from 25 years ago?
   1474. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:42 PM (#4391726)
Well, if users her can't read my contributions, inclusive of all of my general posting history on multiple subjects, and realize that's not the case, they're ####### idiots.


People forming opinions about you haven't necessarily read everything that you've ever written, Sam.

Also, speaking as a guy who earns a living as a writer: If people can't understand what you're trying to say, then that's on you, not them. Even if they're stupid.
   1475. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:42 PM (#4391727)
Why you bristled at the idea the sheriff probably could have been more on top of this case a lot sooner is what confuses me.


I didn't bristle at the idea that he could have been more involved sooner. I bristled at the idea that you or spike or anyone on the internet knows one way or the other if he should or should not have been involved sooner.
   1476. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:43 PM (#4391730)
People forming opinions about you haven't necessarily read everything that you've ever written, Sam.


Kids need to read the classics. Education sucks these days.

Also, speaking as a guy who earns a living as a writer: If people can't understand what you're trying to say, then that's on you, not them. Even if they're stupid.


If it comes down to the muse vs the proles, the proles are going to take the hit I'm afraid.
   1477. Ron J2 Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:45 PM (#4391732)
Or maybe Ron's following me just fine.


Not really. It's just that you have a long posting history so I was able to make an educated guess as to your position.

Just so you're aware, what you've actually posted could easily be parsed as, "Dude, she was totally asking for it!"
   1478. Lassus Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:46 PM (#4391733)
Tell that to a 16 year old who's only training in sexual relationships is CollegeFuckFest videos.

And you're going to get all caps on me about what I'm assuming about the sherriff's operations?
   1479. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:48 PM (#4391734)
Just so you're aware, what you've actually posted could easily be parsed as, "Dude, she was totally asking for it!"


Hmmm. Noted.
   1480. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:48 PM (#4391735)
And you're going to get all caps on me about what I'm assuming about the sherriff's operations?


So it's only okay for your side to spit ball? Even though I'm the only one that can spell sheriff correctly?
   1481. The Good Face Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:49 PM (#4391736)
I wonder what the correlation is between people who think we can stop rape by just teaching young men that it's unacceptable...

And your more brilliant plan would be?


It's fine to teach such things, assuming that's what we believe as a society, but do so with an understanding of the underlying reality.

Monkeys gonna be monkeys.

I'm just amused at the sight of self-proclaimed liberals acting and sounding exactly like abstinence-only sex ed christian fundies.
   1482. Tripon Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:50 PM (#4391737)
You're telling me that the Stubenville Serriff dept didn't have detectives on thsi case, Sam?
   1483. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:53 PM (#4391738)
Tell that to a 16 year old who's only training in sexual relationships is CollegeFuckFest videos. Oh, I'm sorry? Were you thinking times were similar to our coming of age parties from 25 years ago?

So, you're saying porn made them do it?
   1484. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:54 PM (#4391739)
They were football players, so it's gotta be steroids.

Also, brain damage.
   1485. Lassus Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:55 PM (#4391740)
I'm just amused at the sight of self-proclaimed liberals acting and sounding exactly like abstinence-only sex ed christian fundies.

In your opinion telling boys not to rape girls is exactly the same as telling boys and girls not to have sex until marriage, then?

   1486. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:56 PM (#4391742)
So, you're saying porn made them do it?


No, I'm saying that it's categorically incorrect for 40 year old men to assume that 16 year old boys have the same understanding of proper sexual propriety as them.
   1487. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:57 PM (#4391743)

Aww, my brief shining moment of agreement with snapper is over. It was nice, like that episode of the Office where Dwight has a concussion.

(Either of us could be the concussed one, no insult intended.)


None taken.

But we've reached a point where "sexual liberation" has led to 40% of the children in America being raised w/o fathers, which causes a huge burden on the welfare state, as well as leading to higher rates of crime, unwed motherhood, dropping-out, and every other social pathology among these kids, And most people here still endorse that change.

Now we're being told "sexual liberation" will naturally lead to more sexual assaults and rapes, and still no one questions whether these changing mores are a good idea?
   1488. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:58 PM (#4391744)
No, I'm saying that it's categorically incorrect for 40 year old men to assume that 16 year old boys have the same understanding of proper sexual propriety as them.

We were all 16, and we all knew what these guys did was wrong and criminal.

If you honestly think porn makes today's 16 y.o.'s unable to recognize that, I'd expect you to be advocating a ban on pornography.
   1489. Lassus Posted: March 19, 2013 at 04:59 PM (#4391746)
So it's only okay for your side to spit ball?

It is not part of my core beliefs that a sheriff need be perfect. It really seems part of your core beliefs that boys are inextricably lost in the overwhelming adolescent confusion of who, how, and when not to rape.
   1490. The Good Face Posted: March 19, 2013 at 05:01 PM (#4391749)
I'm just amused at the sight of self-proclaimed liberals acting and sounding exactly like abstinence-only sex ed christian fundies.

In your opinion telling boys not to rape girls is exactly the same as telling boys and girls not to have sex until marriage, then?


Do you think abstinence-only sex education is a good idea? If not, why not?
   1491. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 05:06 PM (#4391754)
But we've reached a point where "sexual liberation" has led to 40% of the children in America being raised w/o fathers


No we haven't. You're incorrectly blaming sexual liberation for what is more correctly understood to be an over-policing problem.

Now we're being told "sexual liberation" will naturally lead to more sexual assaults and rapes


No you're not. You're confusing the need to transfer responsibility alongside freedom with "naturally lead to more" rapes. You're reading your conclusions into the arguments, not reading the arguments themselves.
   1492. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 05:08 PM (#4391756)
It is not part of my core beliefs that a sheriff need be perfect. It really seems part of your core beliefs that boys are inextricably lost in the overwhelming adolescent confusion of who, how, and when not to rape.


I've not made any argument that would suggest such a "core belief." Unless you're reading my acknowledgement that adolescent primates will 1) look to assert dominance and 2) look for sex to be "adolescent confusion about who, how and when not to rape." I'd thought you smarter than that, of course.
   1493. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: March 19, 2013 at 05:10 PM (#4391757)
Governor Mike DeWine - "We have 16 witnesses who would not talk to us". Sounds like a firsthand account from a highly credible source to me.

Yeah, because the last person who would ever pander to a mob would be an elected politician.
   1494. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 05:10 PM (#4391758)
No we haven't. You're incorrectly blaming sexual liberation for what is more correctly understood to be an over-policing problem.

HTF has "over-policing" led to 40% of children being born outside of marriage?

You're confusing the need to transfer responsibility alongside freedom with "naturally lead to more" rapes.

Why on earth would you want to transfer responsibility for rape from the rapist to the victim?
   1495. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 19, 2013 at 05:11 PM (#4391759)
Do you think abstinence-only sex education is a good idea? If not, why not?

Abstinence only education is counter-productive. Teenagers who are going to have sex, are going to have sex anyway, and will do so with less knowledge about STD's, pregnancies and contraceptives.

Teaching boys to respect female autonomy may of course not work. Certainly it's not going to eliminate all rape. But what's the alternative? Teach them to rape responsibly?
   1496. Ray (RDP) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 05:13 PM (#4391762)
Yeah, because the last person who would ever pander to a mob would be an elected politician.


Lol.
   1497. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 05:13 PM (#4391763)
HTF has "over-policing" led to 40% of children being born outside of marriage?


Sorry. Read that as "fatherless families."

Why on earth would you want to transfer responsibility for rape from the rapist to the victim?


I never have, nor would I. Read more better.
   1498. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 19, 2013 at 05:16 PM (#4391767)
I never have, nor would I. Read more better.

No one seems to understand what you're saying, Sam.
   1499. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: March 19, 2013 at 05:17 PM (#4391768)
Teaching boys to respect female autonomy may of course not work. Certainly it's not going to eliminate all rape. But what's the alternative? Teach them to rape responsibly?


I'd suggest a combination of teaching the boys not to rape (duh) and teaching the girls how to avoid situations that heighten the dangers of them being assaulted. I know many people who would accuse me of justifying a "culture of rape" because I put that second bit in there.
   1500. Lassus Posted: March 19, 2013 at 05:18 PM (#4391769)
Do you think abstinence-only sex education is a good idea? If not, why not?

I'll even answer yours before you answer mine, you know how us simpletons are so trusting.

If abstinence-only sex education included medically accurate std and pregnancy info, it would be a good idea, or at least not a BAD idea. I don't think many - if any - abstinence-only programs do that.

And your answer to my question?
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